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Author Topic: Jesus Camp on A&E  (Read 17412 times) Average Rating: 0
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John of the North
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« Reply #45 on: February 03, 2008, 12:27:07 AM »

Jesus Camp.....the trailer alone scared the living bejeebers outta me!
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« Reply #46 on: February 03, 2008, 12:29:14 AM »


I like some country, but even country can be morally crude.



JNORM888

Just so there's no misunderstanding, what I wrote was said tongue-in-cheek. While country and folk are my personal preference, I wouldn't assign moral value to any type of music or other form of art, for that matter. And, while some art or music ma appear morally crude on the surface I still wouldn't be so quick to judge it, often there is some great insight or something of great value underneath which must be considered.
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« Reply #47 on: February 03, 2008, 04:49:17 AM »

These people are NOT evangelicals. I repeat, these people are NOT evangelicals. This is typical of the media lumping eveyone to the right of "Bishop" Shelby Spong as an evangelical!

These are fringe FUNDAMENTALISTS. They have always been around. Way back to the days of the John Birch society.

Going back to the original post, chances are you or your kids won't meet one of these people. They are a fringe group.

It's just sad that they indoctrinate their children like this instead of letting them be children.

Those kids are more likely to become the rebellious athiests of the next generation than a political force or "army."

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« Reply #48 on: February 03, 2008, 04:58:39 AM »


I would be interested to see a follow up special with these kids when they grow up, to see how many of them are still in Evangelical churches like that one, and how many of them have sought out something deeper and more meaningful.


Alot of these kids will be gone from that movement with their first drink, first sex, etc. That kind of stiffling brainwash gets trashed by the passions. In fact it is one instance where the passions could actually be the instrument of their eventual salvation.

And I repeat (because Orthodox generally have about as shallow an understanding of what an evangelical actually is as do the secular media)
THESE PEOPLE ARE NOT EVANGELICALS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Can I shout any louder folks? They are some brand of crazy charismaniacs (charasmatics) or fundamentalists or a blend of both. These groups are cultish and have half-lifes of a decade and a half or so.

Wait til the pastor knocks up one of the female counselors; or another scandal.These things crash and burn all the time.
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« Reply #49 on: February 03, 2008, 05:00:27 AM »

I double posted, sorry!
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« Reply #50 on: February 03, 2008, 05:16:08 AM »

This is going to make things difficult for them, because they will know that they are not supposed to like non-Evangelicals, but they won't know why, nor will they have an educated answer to the issues that divide them from non-Evangelicals.  Does this make sense?

Sorry to be redundant. They are not evangelicals. They are charasmatics or pentecostals. Evangelicalism is a movement historically that took the "fundamentals" of the faith and rescued it from fundamentalism, which had grown inward and anti-intellectual. Evangelicalism was grounded in educational institutions and religious pluralism around a core set of common beliefs. Think Billy Graham, Carl F. H. Henry, Harold Okenga, Kenneth Kantzer. More recently, David Wells and John Piper.
Evangelicalism can embrace Sojourners magazine and Touchstone magazine (two opposite poles)

Narrow Fundamentalists, Pentecostals, Charasmatics and other fringe "Christian" groups are not, historically, evangelical. They have some shared beliefs but a totally different mindset. It is like saying because a dolphin lives in the water it is a fish.

That's the what the media does - because they believe the Bible and talk about personal conversion, they must be evangelicals.
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« Reply #51 on: February 03, 2008, 05:31:52 AM »

Glory to God!  Smiley

Secularism, not some other religion, is Orthodoxy's greatest threat.  Atheism/non-religious-ism is growing... on its way to becoming the most popular "religion/worldview" in the world (at least in mainstream pop-culture).  There are several Orthodox elders today who speak of the end times as the age not of false gods... but of NO gods/God.  Paganism is a thing of the past.  Atheism is the future of the fallen world.

Lord have mercy.  May God grant us the strength and courage to endure what is to come.
Indeed!
Secular materialism and prosperity, the fruits of market capitalism, is succeeding where communism failed in wiping out Christianity.

It isn't necessary to stamp Chrisitianty out. Simply buy, or amuse or anesthetize people into loving their conveniences, toys and trinkets more than their Christian faith.
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« Reply #52 on: February 03, 2008, 05:37:47 AM »

Those kids are more likely to become the rebellious athiests of the next generation than a political force or "army."

We can only hope.

That's the what the media does - because they believe the Bible and talk about personal conversion, they must be evangelicals.

Heck, I think we should be more general, maybe just say 'christians' or, better yet, 'religious people'...
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« Reply #53 on: February 03, 2008, 06:00:36 PM »


everybody is brainwashed/indoctrinated. So the problem is not being indoctrinated.......it's what are we being indoctrinated with?

Are we being indoctrinated with good things or bad things? I praize God for the indoctrination and brain washing I received as a kid in Sunday school and Bible summer camps.

Everyone is brainwashed. When I became Orthodox I had to brainwash myself on a couple beliefs for I had to embrace somethings on a matter of faith.


But if this bothers you just pray that as they get older they keep the good and spit out the bad.



JNORM888

In my opinion, there is nothing worthwhile, wholesome or worth defending about what I saw being done in that documentary. It fullfills every enemy of Christianity in their desire to paint us manipulative hypocrites in need of medication.

No one was being indoctrinated against the evils of the World, they are being indoctrinated into error. 
C
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« Reply #54 on: February 03, 2008, 07:36:21 PM »

Jnorm888,

Thanks for your thoughts on the matter.  Respectfully, though, I must disagree.

First off, I think atheism and secularism is terrible, yes, as it separates people from God.  However, I know many atheists and secularists that are wonderful, beautiful people who live with kindness, generosity, and love for others, moreso than most Christians I know.  The fact is, they just have not found God yet.  This does not make them bad people.  In fact, to the contrary.  I don't know a single atheist (and I know quite a few) who DOESN'T live with Christian moral values.  They just don't define them as Christian.  They define them as good morals.  It is sad that they don't believe in God.  But what is worse, is manipulating the word of God and teaching it incorrectly for political gains.

I have a serious problem, however, with people who take the message of Christ, and misrepresent it and use it as a political machine to get what they want "in the name of God."  Ted Haggert himself said in the documentary that, essentially, the goal was to teach these children these things such that they can build up the religious right and take political control of the country!  You said yourself that the problem is what we are indoctrinated with.  I think that indoctrinating children to be militant Christians who use the Gospel for political gain (to the point of essentially venerating a cardboard standup of George Bush), who are intolerant of others, who purposely teach their children ignore science and mathematics to the point of being ignorant, and who teach them to violently "stand up" to Muslims and other "godless heathens" (such that they are no better than the fundamentalist Muslims they are fighting), is SERIOUSLY dangerous.  It is, in fact, just as dangerous to teach children to fight in the name of Christ, as it is to teach them to fight in the name of "Allah."  So yes, it does matter what we are indoctrinating our children with.

I also believe that there is a serious difference between brainwashing a child and teaching them faith.  There is a line that these people have crossed where it has become brainwashing.  I think brainwashing is when you tell a child that they cannot ask questions (the way these people have basically said that questioning is disbelieving and that they will go to hell), and when you teach them that there are no questions to be asked.  When you don't allow them to make determinations for themselves and to judge for themselves what they believe to be valid (this is part of not allowing them to ask questions), then you are brainwashing them.  When you teach them that they will be damned for not being Christian (which is not what the Church teaches), and make it almost a threat, to the point where they are in conflict within themselves and fearful of asking questions or of not believing, this is brainwashing.

In my opinion, teaching a child faith is not about indoctrination.  It is about example.  We teach our children by example.  Yes, we take them to church, we read the Bible and the Fathers and the lives of the saints with them, but we also SHOW them the love and compassion of Christ.  Not having love for our non-Orthodox brothers, among other things, is not teaching them by example.  Living a life in Christ, letting your children SEE YOU read the Bible, letting them SEE YOU show love and compassion to others, letting them SEE YOU go to church and participate in the sacraments and pray and feed the hungry and minister to the sick... this is how we teach them, not by indoctrination.

And yes, I do have a problem with "Christian" rap and "Christian" rock, etc.  For one thing, it doesn't proclaim our theology correctly.  But even if someone took the words of "Agne Parthene," or the Akathist Hymn, or the Doxology, or the Evlogitaria, or the very words of the Bible, and set them to rap, I would still have a problem with it.  The reason is because a) it glorifies a type of music whose history and development, whose primary message, etc. are rooted in violence.  I object to this in principle because the point of our hymns is not to glorify the music, but to glorify God with our words.  I LOVE the rhythms of rap.  However, when we hand A CHILD (whose brain isn't even fully developed yet) Christian rap and regular Gangsta rap, how can we expect them to understand the difference and choose that which glorifies God?  This is especially true considering that whether in Gangsta rap or Christian rap, it is often difficult to understand the words, in which case we are back to square one (glorifying the music rather than God).

BrotherAiden,
Apologies for the mix-up in terminology.  The documentary (if I remember correctly-- I finally erased it about two weeks ago after having recorded it when it aired) said they were Evangelicals.  Guess I believed them.  If this is the case (that they are not Evangelicals), then I am glad to hear it, as Billy Graham was one of my Grammy's favorite pastors (I was very close to my Grammy), and I admire his faith and good works very much (though I may not have agreed with his theology).  He also suffers from Parkinson's, as my Grammy did, and like her, has shown much faith throughout what is a difficult and painfully debilitating illness.

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« Reply #55 on: February 04, 2008, 04:22:34 PM »

Despite Brother Aidan's protest to the contrary, most of the people he has classified as not being Evangelical are considered by themselves and others to be so.  Ted Haggard after all was the President of the National Association of Evangelicals from 2003-2006.  You don't get much more Evangelical than that.  Almost every Trinitarian Pentecostal denomination I can name is a member (and some of them founding members) of the NAE.  So the distinction that our Brother is drawing is not a valid one, I fear.

Below is a list of the current member denominations with the Pentecostal/Charismatic ones indicated (BTW--I have only marked the ones I was certain about, some of the others may be also but I didn't know it for sure):

  Advent Christian General Conference

Assemblies of God
Association of Life-Giving Churches

Association of Vineyard Churches-USA
Baptist General Conference

Bilingual Christian Fellowship

Brethren in Christ Church

Christ Community Church

Christian Reformed Church in North America

Christian Union

Church of God
Church of God (Holiness)
Church of God Mountain Assembly
Church of the Nazarene

Churches of Christ In Christian Union

Congregational Holiness Church
Congregational Methodist Church

Conservative Baptist Association of America

Conservative Congregational Christian Conference

Conservative Lutheran Association

Elim Fellowship
Evangelical Assembly of Presbyterian Churches

Evangelical Church of North America

Evangelical Congregational Church

Evangelical Free Church of America

Evangelical Friends Church Eastern Region

Evangelical Lutheran Conference

Evangelical Methodist Church

Evangelical Presbyterian Church

Evangelistic Missionary Fellowship

Fellowship of Evangelical Churches

Free Methodist Church of North America

General Association of General Baptist

General Council Christian Union

Great Commission Churches

Hispanic World Harvest Churches

International Church of the Foursquare Gospel
International Fellowship of Christian Assemblies
International Pentecostal Church of Christ
International Pentecostal Holiness Church
Midwest Congregational Christian Fellowship

Missionary Church, Inc.

Morningstar Fellowship of Churches

Northern Pacific Latin American Assemblies of God
Open Bible Churches
Pentecostal Church of God
Pentecostal Free Will Baptist Church Inc.
Presbyterian Church in America

Primitive Methodist Church USA

Reformed Episcopal Church

Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America

Southern Pacific Latin American Churches

The Brethren Church

The Christian & Missionary Alliance

The Salvation Army

The Wesleyan Church Corporation

Third Day Worship Centers

Transformation Ministries

United Brethren in Christ

US Conference of the Mennonite Brethren Churches

Worldwide Church of God
« Last Edit: February 04, 2008, 04:29:08 PM by ComingHome » Logged
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« Reply #56 on: February 04, 2008, 05:26:25 PM »

They are not evangelicals. They are charasmatics or pentecostals.

John McArthur is a fine example of an evangelical who strongly asserts the same as you on this.  Evangelicals, so he says, are strictly "by-the-Bible" folks--in other words, they will not admit any other authoritative revelation other than that which has been revealed in the canon of Holy Scripture.  In contrast, the aspect of "experience" or a "Holy Spirit revelation" in charismatic settings can often (though charismatics will not agree to this) serve as an authority on par with the Holy Scriptures.

(EDIT, BECAUSE COMING HOME BEAT ME TO IT:) This is classical Evangelicalism, though, not our current reality.  The charismatic movement has so infiltrated most every confession of Christianity (we even have a few "black sheep" ourselves in this area) that many churches, like the ones CH referenced, are very evangelical in their systematic theology while also affirming the "gifts of the Holy Spirit" that characterizes the movement.

So, as much as BA and John McArthur and James White and whomever else might not agree, Evangelicalism today -- which, as BA noted, can embrace diametrically opposed ends of certain stances and still be called such -- has a very wide charismatic streak to go alongside its older, classical one.

That is NOT to say, however, that the kooks in this movie are affiliated with or to be identified with those charismatic evangelicals who are not so "fringe group."  I seriously doubt they can be, even though they quoted Ted Haggard in the movie.

Secular materialism and prosperity, the fruits of market capitalism, is succeeding where communism failed in wiping out Christianity.

It isn't necessary to stamp Chrisitianty out. Simply buy, or amuse or anesthetize people into loving their conveniences, toys and trinkets more than their Christian faith.

Agreed.  Lord, have mercy. Cry
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« Reply #57 on: February 04, 2008, 11:48:28 PM »

These people are NOT evangelicals. I repeat, these people are NOT evangelicals. This is typical of the media lumping eveyone to the right of "Bishop" Shelby Spong as an evangelical!

These are fringe FUNDAMENTALISTS. They have always been around. Way back to the days of the John Birch society.

Going back to the original post, chances are you or your kids won't meet one of these people. They are a fringe group.

It's just sad that they indoctrinate their children like this instead of letting them be children.

Those kids are more likely to become the rebellious athiests of the next generation than a political force or "army."




They are. They are Charismatic evangelicals.

But you have a point. Some of those kids may become Atheists. But most of them will not "if" they find other kids to hang out with that believe the way they do.


What helped me in highschool was a "Bible club". Some public highschools allow clubs and the one I went to had a bible club.

And in college I was invlovled in alot of different protestant campus ministries.



It's easy to become an Atheist when you are all alone, but it's hard to become one when you are around people of your age group that believe the way you do.



The Orthodox did a great thing when we came up with OCF (Orthodox Christian Fellowship)



I don't see anything wrong with the Jesus camp. Extremism in and of itself isn't evil. It can be used for both good and evil. The KKK is evil, but the Jesus camp isn't the KKK.




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« Reply #58 on: February 04, 2008, 11:52:46 PM »

Alot of these kids will be gone from that movement with their first drink, first sex, etc. That kind of stiffling brainwash gets trashed by the passions. In fact it is one instance where the passions could actually be the instrument of their eventual salvation.

And I repeat (because Orthodox generally have about as shallow an understanding of what an evangelical actually is as do the secular media)
THESE PEOPLE ARE NOT EVANGELICALS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Can I shout any louder folks? They are some brand of crazy charismaniacs (charasmatics) or fundamentalists or a blend of both. These groups are cultish and have half-lifes of a decade and a half or so.

Wait til the pastor knocks up one of the female counselors; or another scandal.These things crash and burn all the time.


True, but I wouldn't generalize. Some will stay with it. But some will not.




JNORM888
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« Reply #59 on: February 04, 2008, 11:58:54 PM »

Isn't the Orthodox Church, evangelical?  Smiley
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« Reply #60 on: February 05, 2008, 12:25:24 AM »

Jnorm888,

Thanks for your thoughts on the matter.  Respectfully, though, I must disagree.

First off, I think atheism and secularism is terrible, yes, as it separates people from God.  However, I know many atheists and secularists that are wonderful, beautiful people who live with kindness, generosity, and love for others, moreso than most Christians I know.  The fact is, they just have not found God yet.  This does not make them bad people.  In fact, to the contrary.  I don't know a single atheist (and I know quite a few) who DOESN'T live with Christian moral values.  They just don't define them as Christian.  They define them as good morals.  It is sad that they don't believe in God.  But what is worse, is manipulating the word of God and teaching it incorrectly for political gains.

I have a serious problem, however, with people who take the message of Christ, and misrepresent it and use it as a political machine to get what they want "in the name of God."  Ted Haggert himself said in the documentary that, essentially, the goal was to teach these children these things such that they can build up the religious right and take political control of the country!  You said yourself that the problem is what we are indoctrinated with.  I think that indoctrinating children to be militant Christians who use the Gospel for political gain (to the point of essentially venerating a cardboard standup of George Bush), who are intolerant of others, who purposely teach their children ignore science and mathematics to the point of being ignorant, and who teach them to violently "stand up" to Muslims and other "godless heathens" (such that they are no better than the fundamentalist Muslims they are fighting), is SERIOUSLY dangerous.  It is, in fact, just as dangerous to teach children to fight in the name of Christ, as it is to teach them to fight in the name of "Allah."  So yes, it does matter what we are indoctrinating our children with.

I also believe that there is a serious difference between brainwashing a child and teaching them faith.  There is a line that these people have crossed where it has become brainwashing.  I think brainwashing is when you tell a child that they cannot ask questions (the way these people have basically said that questioning is disbelieving and that they will go to hell), and when you teach them that there are no questions to be asked.  When you don't allow them to make determinations for themselves and to judge for themselves what they believe to be valid (this is part of not allowing them to ask questions), then you are brainwashing them.  When you teach them that they will be damned for not being Christian (which is not what the Church teaches), and make it almost a threat, to the point where they are in conflict within themselves and fearful of asking questions or of not believing, this is brainwashing.

In my opinion, teaching a child faith is not about indoctrination.  It is about example.  We teach our children by example.  Yes, we take them to church, we read the Bible and the Fathers and the lives of the saints with them, but we also SHOW them the love and compassion of Christ.  Not having love for our non-Orthodox brothers, among other things, is not teaching them by example.  Living a life in Christ, letting your children SEE YOU read the Bible, letting them SEE YOU show love and compassion to others, letting them SEE YOU go to church and participate in the sacraments and pray and feed the hungry and minister to the sick... this is how we teach them, not by indoctrination.

And yes, I do have a problem with "Christian" rap and "Christian" rock, etc.  For one thing, it doesn't proclaim our theology correctly.  But even if someone took the words of "Agne Parthene," or the Akathist Hymn, or the Doxology, or the Evlogitaria, or the very words of the Bible, and set them to rap, I would still have a problem with it.  The reason is because a) it glorifies a type of music whose history and development, whose primary message, etc. are rooted in violence.  I object to this in principle because the point of our hymns is not to glorify the music, but to glorify God with our words.  I LOVE the rhythms of rap.  However, when we hand A CHILD (whose brain isn't even fully developed yet) Christian rap and regular Gangsta rap, how can we expect them to understand the difference and choose that which glorifies God?  This is especially true considering that whether in Gangsta rap or Christian rap, it is often difficult to understand the words, in which case we are back to square one (glorifying the music rather than God).

BrotherAiden,
Apologies for the mix-up in terminology.  The documentary (if I remember correctly-- I finally erased it about two weeks ago after having recorded it when it aired) said they were Evangelicals.  Guess I believed them.  If this is the case (that they are not Evangelicals), then I am glad to hear it, as Billy Graham was one of my Grammy's favorite pastors (I was very close to my Grammy), and I admire his faith and good works very much (though I may not have agreed with his theology).  He also suffers from Parkinson's, as my Grammy did, and like her, has shown much faith throughout what is a difficult and painfully debilitating illness.




It's ok if we disagree. I disagree with you about "nice Atheists".  Nice Atheists are nothing more than cultural christians, or cultural something else.

They don't know what "good" and "evil" is. Nor can they know. A nice atheist today will be a mean atheist tomorrow. Like you I know alot of Atheists. Some nice.....and some not so nice, but even the nice ones were raised with christian ethics. But they are bad people for they kicked the knowledge of God out of their minds. And God may turn them over to their nature. Atheism killed 10's of millions in Russia. In China, and other parts of communist ashia.

Atheism doesn't know what evil is therfore it can dip to unlimited/unrestrained lows of moral evil. It is said that some Chinese Atheists see the eating of human fetus a delicacy! Now what if this spreads to America? One can argue that their stem cells will help one live longer.

And in America where Atheistic morals seems to be interwoven with the American economy....it is even worse. For what is moraly right seems to be anything that makes the most money.



There is no limit to the evils of Atheism.



I do agree with you about "mean christians". There are alot of mean christians, and this is why conversion is a lifelong journy. Not a onetime thing.




To be honest...what you call a political machine was first spiritual. Most evangelicals didn't care about politics until recently....well they did in the early to mid 18 hundreds but anyway.


What you call political only became so because the otherside made it political. Social engineering from the far left is what made this political.



The teachings of Jesus was spiritual, but they were made political by the teachers of the law and the Pharisees.



Therefor it seems as if anything and everything that is spiritual will eventually become political.



It is inevitable. Infact, every law is moral. Every law has a righteous or unrighteous dimension to it.



If you don't believe me then think of a law that isn't moral/amoral.







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« Reply #61 on: February 05, 2008, 12:45:50 AM »

There is no limit to the evils of Atheism.

And likewise, there is no limit to the evils of Religion...Human Sacrifice, the persecutions of Jews, Pagans, and Heretics under the Empire, the Crusades, the Inquisition, Sharia Law, need I go on?

Quote
It is inevitable. Infact, every law is moral. Every law has a righteous or unrighteous dimension to it.



If you don't believe me then think of a law that isn't moral/amoral.

I disagree, every just law is mutually beneficial under social contract theory. We don't make laws for or against something because it's moral, we make laws because they are necessary for the maintaining of our social contract. For example, we have a law against murder not because murder is wrong, but because to freely allow murder in society would undermine the stability of, and eventually nullify, the social contract.
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« Reply #62 on: February 05, 2008, 11:01:03 AM »

And likewise, there is no limit to the evils of Religion...Human Sacrifice, the persecutions of Jews, Pagans, and Heretics under the Empire, the Crusades, the Inquisition, Sharia Law, need I go on?

I disagree, every just law is mutually beneficial under social contract theory. We don't make laws for or against something because it's moral, we make laws because they are necessary for the maintaining of our social contract. For example, we have a law against murder not because murder is wrong, but because to freely allow murder in society would undermine the stability of, and eventually nullify, the social contract.


In the last 200 years Atheistic schools of thought have killed way more people than religion has in 6,000 years.


I disagree with your social contract theory. What do you mean by the word "we"? If "we" means AMERICA then you are wrong. Laws are made for or against something all the time.





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« Reply #63 on: February 05, 2008, 11:05:58 AM »

Greekchef,


We will have to agree to disagree about christian rap and christian rock. Even Orthodox christian rap. Not to mention other forms of possitive rap and rock from other nonchristian religious backgrounds.



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« Reply #64 on: February 05, 2008, 11:20:59 AM »

In the last 200 years Atheistic schools of thought have killed way more people than religion has in 6,000 years.

Uh-oh.... six thousands years of history - I know where this is leading. 

For that matter, it is hard to find a truly atheist state.  The Third Reich basically invented its own religion.  The Soviet Union used religious imagery when it needed it (i.e WWII), and for all practical purposes the cults of Lenin and Stalin were religions. 
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« Reply #65 on: February 05, 2008, 12:13:58 PM »

Uh-oh.... six thousands years of history - I know where this is leading. 

For that matter, it is hard to find a truly atheist state.  The Third Reich basically invented its own religion.  The Soviet Union used religious imagery when it needed it (i.e WWII), and for all practical purposes the cults of Lenin and Stalin were religions. 

Despite atheism being a religion, JNORM888's point is valid.
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« Reply #66 on: February 05, 2008, 12:26:40 PM »

Despite atheism being a religion, JNORM888's point is valid.

How?  The most violent regime in human history was composed of a majority Christian population and used Orthodox Christian propaganda to justify its major war of expansion. 

The people who have pushed the anti-war agenda the hardest in the West have been secularists and "liberals".
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« Reply #67 on: February 05, 2008, 12:38:47 PM »

How?  The most violent regime in human history was composed of a majority Christian population and used Orthodox Christian propaganda to justify its major war of expansion. 

The people who have pushed the anti-war agenda the hardest in the West have been secularists and "liberals".
Huh? Heard of Timur the Lame? Or pre-Christian Romans, or any other number of non-Christian violent expansionists?
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« Reply #68 on: February 05, 2008, 12:44:27 PM »

How?  The most violent regime in human history was composed of a majority Christian population and used Orthodox Christian propaganda to justify its major war of expansion. 

The people who have pushed the anti-war agenda the hardest in the West have been secularists and "liberals".

Are you talking about Stalinist Russia? I thought Stalin hated Orthodoxy. I thought he wanted to kill it.

Didn't he have millions of Orthodox christians killed?


The secularists and liberals in America may be against this war.....although the Atheistic Christopher Hitchens seemed to be for it at one time.

The secularists and liberals don't understand why America is at war in the first place. We are at war in Irag because we need to free up Iraq's oil. We need to trade for their oil.


I know this sounds mean and evil, but if we don't trade for thie roil then this country will fall apart. I am against war too but if we don't trade for their oil then hundreds of millions of Americans will suffer and die.


It is a lesser of two evils.




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« Reply #69 on: February 05, 2008, 12:48:27 PM »

I think he's on a jihad about Tsarist Russia, JNORM888.
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« Reply #70 on: February 05, 2008, 12:51:08 PM »

Are you talking about Stalinist Russia? I thought Stalin hated Orthodoxy. I thought he wanted to kill it.

Didn't he have millions of Orthodox christians killed?

Reality is more nuanced than that.  I'm attaching a picture I took in Park Pobedy in Moscow.  Stalinism was a new religion unto itself.  This is one of the better books about it.   

Quote
The secularists and liberals don't understand why America is at war in the first place. We are at war in Irag because we need to free up Iraq's oil. We need to trade for their oil.


I know this sounds mean and evil, but if we don't trade for thie roil then this country will fall apart. I am against war too but if we don't trade for their oil then hundreds of millions of Americans will suffer and die.


It is a lesser of two evils.

Christianity at its finest.  If one needs something, simply kill your neighbor to get it. 

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« Reply #71 on: February 05, 2008, 01:00:09 PM »

So it is Stalin...how can you condemn the Christians for the atheists' actions?
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« Reply #72 on: February 05, 2008, 01:05:13 PM »

So it is Stalin...how can you condemn the Christians for the atheists' actions?

That is my point - stalinism is not atheism, it was a religious ideology.  So if one is to condemn the actions of atheism and atheist states, fine - back that does not really include the Soviet Union.   
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« Reply #73 on: February 05, 2008, 01:13:13 PM »

That is my point - stalinism is not atheism, it was a religious ideology.  So if one is to condemn the actions of atheism and atheist states, fine - back that does not really include the Soviet Union.   

I don't think we disagree except in that I see atheism as a religion - one which replaces God with the self (reasoned or otherwise) - the ultimate heresy. Stalinism was just a variant.
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« Reply #74 on: February 05, 2008, 03:30:32 PM »

I don't think we disagree except in that I see atheism as a religion - one which replaces God with the self (reasoned or otherwise) - the ultimate heresy. Stalinism was just a variant.

Self perception is also important, and I don't think too many from the FSU see their "Great Patriotic War" as an atheist struggle.  It is also often portrayed right along side the 1812 campaign (in fact the 1812 victory arch was moved to right outside the afore mentioned park pobedy (Park of Victory).  Besides the giant obelisk with St. George and the dragon (the dragon has a giant swastika on it as well) there is an Orthodox church, mosque and synagogue.  So while the official line was a variant of atheism in the USSR, I think it would be inaccurate to say that religion (i.e Orthodoxy, Judaism and even Islam) did not play a role in supporting one of the most brutal expansionist wars in history.  All I'm arguing for is not letting nuances get lost in the generalizations of the USSR being an atheist state. 
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« Reply #75 on: February 05, 2008, 04:28:03 PM »

Perhaps. But Stalin was well known for appropriating the religious nature of the average Russian even to the point of removing icons and replacing them with portraits of himself. Whatever "Christian" attributes you wish to apply to the USSR, they do not disprove the entire regime as being atheist based. One can't generalize in the other direction, either.
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« Reply #76 on: February 05, 2008, 10:25:09 PM »

Bishop Kallistos of Diokleia actually goes in depth on this topic in his book, "The Orthoodx Church" - Chapter: "Orthodoxy and the Militant Athiests"

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