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Author Topic: UGCC RECIEVES ORTHODOX BISHOP  (Read 6131 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: October 28, 2002, 09:15:39 PM »

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I have read unconfirmed reports that His Grace Bishop Yurij, Orthodox Eparch of Donetsk (I believe he is  (was) a KP bishop) has now joined the ranks of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church.

Rumors have been floating around that there have been sevral bishops of the UOC-KP considering joining the UGCC, which has now declared itself a Patriarchate during the Sobor this past summer.

What do y'all think about this?

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« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2002, 09:18:56 PM »

Well, since the KP technically isn't Orthodox (sorry, Viktor) I don't see how it affects Orthodox-Catholic dialogue. Not an ecumenical-relations catastrophe like if an MP bishop defected to the UGCC or vice versa.

Also, a Catholic expert on these things once told me the Catholic Church is very reluctant to take in someone on his own who has been made a bishop elsewhere. He also claimed several such in Ukraine offered, about a decade ago, but were turned down.
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« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2002, 09:34:34 PM »

The article on this is from http://www.cmri.org/yurchik.html a sedevacantist "Catholic" site.

On February 2, 2002, the feast of the Purification of the Blessed Virgin Mary, Bishop Yuri Yurchik of the Ukraine Orthodox Church communicated to me his long-held intention to return to the Catholic Church (with the clarification that he did not mean the Vatican II Church).

During the past eight months I have made a careful investigation, whether Bishop Yurchik accepts the Catholic faith, especially in those matters which were rejected by the schismatic Orthodox Church; namely: the Papacy, the Primacy of Jurisdiction of the Roman Pontiff, Papal Infallibility, the ôFilioqueö of the Nicene Creed (the Procession of the Holy Ghost from the Father AND THE SON by one principle of spiration), the transubstantiation of the bread and wine at Holy Mass into the Body and Blood of Christ (not by the Epiclesis ù the invocation of the Holy Ghost); also the doctrines of Purgatory and of the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin, (which the Orthodox hold but not in an explicit manner).

Bishop Yurchik responded both in writing and in the presence of Fr. Eugene Rissling, a traditional Roman Catholic priest from Munich, Germany, with a firm assent to the Catholic Faith, especially those doctrines rejected by schismatic Orthodox Church.

Mindful of the consistent practice of the Catholic Church to receive schismatic clergy (who have been born and raised in schism) back into the Church as clergymen, I have personally reviewed with Bishop Yurchik the pertinent areas of dogmatic and moral theology as well as the Code of Canon Law for Eastern Rite Catholics.

In view of the extraordinary situation in the Catholic Church with the vacancy of the Apostolic See and in virtue of Canon 209 by which the Church supplies jurisdiction in the internal and external fora, I have received the abjuration of error and profession of faith of Bishop Yuri Yurchik and have absolved him from the bond of excommunication and restored him to the communion and unity of the faithful.

Given on this 24th day of October, the feast of Saint Raphael, in the year of Our Lord, 2002.

+ Mark Anthony Pivarunas, CMRI



Up until his abjuration of error and profession of faith on October 24, Bishop Yuri Yurchik of Danetsk, Ukraine, was a member of the hierarchy of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church. In embracing the Catholic Faith, Bishop Yurchik has indicated that he wishes to be an instrument of the Mother of God to assist in the fulfillment of her message at Fatima ù that ôRussia will be converted.ö As an Orthodox bishop, he had authority over 55 priests and 85 parishes, but it is not yet known how many will follow him.


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« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2002, 09:51:04 PM »

[During the past eight months I have made a careful investigation, whether Bishop Yurchik accepts the Catholic faith, especially in those matters which were rejected by the schismatic Orthodox Church; namely: the Papacy, the Primacy of Jurisdiction of the Roman Pontiff, Papal Infallibility, the ôFilioqueö of the Nicene Creed (the Procession of the Holy Ghost from the Father AND THE SON by one principle of spiration), the transubstantiation of the bread and wine at Holy Mass into the Body and Blood of Christ (not by the Epiclesis ù the invocation of the Holy Ghost); also the doctrines of Purgatory and of the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin, (which the Orthodox hold but not in an explicit manner).]

So we are back to being schismatics again!  Or is it because that this so called bishop is part of the kievian Patriarchate and, as such, is not recognized as a canonical Orthodox Catholic bishop by any canonical Orthodox Church in the world?

And whats with the claim that he had to profess believe in the Filioque if he is to become a Uniate Bishop?  And Purgatory!

Sounds like a lot of Latin requirements for a man who is to be a Bishop in a Uniate Church that is supposed to be sui juris and as such independent of Rome.  And why has he been negiotating with a Latin Roman Catholic Hierach if he's going into a sui juris Church!

I wonder what his theological background is.  Looks rather young to me.

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« Reply #4 on: October 28, 2002, 09:53:00 PM »

See I wrote 'unconfirmed' because I have heard that he went to this Anti-Vatican 2 group but also I have heard he is now going to go into the UGCC with about 2 or 3 other KP bishops. Over the past few weeks I have heard about him going to the UGCC more so than this "traditionalist" faction.

If it turns out that Bishop Yurir of Donetsk (not Danetsk!!) joined this anti- Vatican 2 group, well that is a sad day for Ukraine.

But it is rumored (and very very believable) that there are KP bishops considering joining the UGCC. I have heard that one will soon.

Reader Serge wrote "...if an MP bishop defected to the UGCC or vice versa."

That would be something. I would pay to see the look on Agent Dvozhdy's, errr ugh ummm I mean Patriarch Alexiy II's face Cheesy.

I doubt that we will see defections from the UGCC or the MP. It will more than likely be from the UOC-KP or UAOC. (so many abbreviations!)

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« Reply #5 on: October 28, 2002, 10:27:08 PM »

[I doubt that we will see defections from the UGCC or the MP. It will more than likely be from the UOC-KP or UAOC. (so many abbreviations!)]

Neither of which are considered canonical (valid) Orthodox Catholic Churches by world wide Orthodoxy.

 [In embracing the Catholic Faith, Bishop Yurchik has indicated that he wishes to be an instrument of the Mother of God to assist in the fulfillment of her message at Fatima ù that ôRussia will be converted.ö As an Orthodox bishop, he had authority over 55 priests and 85 parishes, but it is not yet known how many will follow him.]

If Ukraine is a separate country, with a separate people, culture, and religious identity than Russia as so many Ukrainians claim  - then what does the whole  so called Fatima message have to do with either a Ukrainian bishop or the RCC?  Thought the latest claim from the Vatican was that the conversion meant to Christianity rather than Roman Catholicism in its various forms.

Isn't it amazing how the RC outlook always changes depending on the specific issue being discussed?

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« Reply #6 on: October 28, 2002, 11:04:14 PM »

To be fair, this is an "Orthodox Bishop" from one of the groups not recognised by "World Orthodoxy" entering into a Sedevacantist group not recognised by "World Catholicism", and itself in schism from Rome.  

A whole bunch of nuts, if you ask me...check out the picture:

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« Reply #7 on: October 28, 2002, 11:12:47 PM »

What's the deal with the KP?  I understand if they're not in communion with anyone, but why was its founder defrocked, and by whom?
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« Reply #8 on: October 28, 2002, 11:22:52 PM »

Interesting vagante sideshow, East and West.

1. The KP isn't Orthodox.
2. Bishop Mark Pivarunas isn't in the Catholic Church.
3. So this man Yurchik (Bishop Georgi/Yuri) has gone from not being Orthodox to not being Catholic. Who knows why.
4. So he is not in the UGCC after all.
5. He was being un-PC, it seems - he is saying Ukraine is part of Velikaja Rus' after all.

Glad all the parties in question are apparently apostolic and traditional. And Bishop Pivarunas has an awesome Roman Rite setup.

What all this has to do with Orthodox-Catholic relations: nil.

Michael Denisenko (former Metropolitan Filaret), patriarch of the KP, was deposed by the Moscow Patriarchate.
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« Reply #9 on: October 29, 2002, 12:25:31 AM »

Dear Orthodoc,

Although this has been said before in this thread, that group that is referred to is NOT a part of the Catholic Church--this is clear in that they were talking about the "see of Peter being vacant." This is a heresy called sedevacantism which claims that the Pope is not really the Pope, but an imposter.

So what that group does does not impact official RC praxis, which, as someone else above pointed out, is what kept Rome from accepting guys like this before.

In Christ,

anastasios

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« Reply #10 on: October 29, 2002, 12:37:13 AM »

Serge is right that a basically non-Orthodox bishop is now a basically non-Catholic bishop.  Amusing but not really pertinent to Catholic-Orthodox relations.

However, the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-KP does not really count as a vagante Church as it has real parishes, real faithful, a real history, and bishops who are real monks.  Schismatic? Yes.  Vagante? No. Vagante conjurs up images of people in their garages with homemade altars and their children are the only congregation! ;-)

As far as Patriarch Filaret's deposition, let's just say my opinion is that it was unjust and due to the stupid politics of the day. Just as Bulgaria freed itself from Constantinople, I believe it is only a short while before Ukraine is freed from Moscow.

In Christ,

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« Reply #11 on: October 29, 2002, 01:24:02 AM »

To be fair, this is an "Orthodox Bishop" from one of the groups not recognised by "World Orthodoxy" entering into a Sedevacantist group not recognised by "World Catholicism", and itself in schism from Rome.  

A whole bunch of nuts, if you ask me...check out the picture:



All I can say to this, especially the pic of this Ukrainian "bishop" offering Liturgy before a statue of "Our Lady of Fatima" is: YUKH!!!!

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« Reply #12 on: October 29, 2002, 01:50:18 AM »

The KP is in a huge mess, although they are the most friendly with Rome in Ukraine. Patriarch Filaret was very active in the Papal visit last summer to Ukraine. But rumors spread all over Ukraine saying he has mistresses and has fathered children and such but remember Alexiy II aka KGB agent Dvozhdy.

The recently concecrated a bishop in Florida for the whole United States. The UOC of the USA, my jurisdiction, (www.uocofusa.org) is having problems with the KP trying to win parishes in the U.S.  Our Phoenix parish recently joined their ranks. There is a group that is anti Ecummenical Patriachate in the U.S. and believe that the American Ukie Orthodox Bishops are sellouts. They are pro-KP (www.saveouruoc.com)

The KP is a nice idea, because KYIV NEEDS A UNIFIED PATRIARCHATE. This situation in Ukraine is such that you have 3 Orthodox churches and of course the UGCC. Disunity and polotics is the main problem, I doubt that actual faith matters play much of a role.

The UOC-KP, UAOC, and the UGCC have 3 major similarities:
1. All 3 are true Ukrainian, or intend to be
2. All stress the need for a unified Kyivan Patriarchate free from Moscow's ever present grip
3. Moscow is to fond of the three

The "UOC-MP" (I add "" because they are not truely Ukrainian) is Moscows puppet in Ukraine. They do all but help the religious and political situation in the already fragile country. They are Russian, full of Russians, and all pro Russian. They have control of Ukraine's holiest spots and don't intend to give them up to the true owners at all. The "UOC-MP" is Ukraine's biggest problem. Yes they may be canonical, yes they maybe be Orthodox, but yes they are doing a whole lot of damage in Ukraine. Moscow, get out.

With Patriarch Lubomyr (best man for the job), UGCC, Patriarch Filaret, UOC-KP, and Metropolitan Meofodiy, UAOC, in very good standings, I believe the goal of a Unified Kyivan Patriarchate is soon in the making, I'd say in our life time. These three are working with the UOC-USA and the Ecummenical Patriarch to make this goal a reality. The only thing is the MP is in the way.

One more thing about Patriarch Filaret- He said he will STEP DOWN if it needs be in order to have a true unified and canonical Patriarchate for Kyiv, Ukraine, and the Ukrainian People.

It is all very confusing and unfortunate. But I am sure I will see a true, united, canonical Kyivan Patriarchate in my life time.

I hope I cleared up some confusion, or did I cause more........ Grin

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« Reply #13 on: October 29, 2002, 02:06:59 AM »

surferuke,

Glory to Jesus Christ!

I sure hope I'm reading you wrong, but it appears to me that Ukrainian *nationalism*and politics is somehow more important than either the Eastern Orthodox or Eastern Catholic faiths to far too many Ukrainians.  What's with this title of "Patriarch" Lubomyr?  Isn't the OFFICIAL title (bestowed by Rome) of the head of the UGCC "Major Archbishop of L'viv"?  And isn't His Eminence, Lubomyr Husar a Cardinal of the Roman Catholic Church?  What's the difference between being ecclesiastically subject to Rome or Moscow?  Or doesn' t it matter in the end, just so long as there is unification as a united Ukrainian people?  Tell that to all the Ukrainian Pentecostal immigrants we have arriving daily in my area!

One last point: NOT ALL Autocephalous Orthodox Churches have a Primate bearing the title of "Patriarch."  The ancient Autocephalous Orthodox Church of Cyprus, for example, bears the title of "Archbishop."  If Rome awards Cardinal Husar the title of "Patriarch" it would only be to win more Ukrainians--Orthodox Ukrainians--to the Unia under Rome, IMHO.

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« Reply #14 on: October 29, 2002, 02:17:59 AM »

Dear Orthodoc,

Although this has been said before in this thread, that group that is referred to is NOT a part of the Catholic Church--this is clear in that they were talking about the "see of Peter being vacant." This is a heresy called sedevacantism which claims that the Pope is not really the Pope, but an imposter.

So what that group does does not impact official RC praxis, which, as someone else above pointed out, is what kept Rome from accepting guys like this before.

In Christ,

anastasios




    Amen, Anastasios.. I wish some in their haste to see all evil in Rome actually looked into the matter and realized that this traditionalist sect is not part of the Roman Catholic Church.  So this has nothing to do with the Ukrainian Byzantine Catholic Church nor the Roman Catholic Church.
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« Reply #15 on: October 29, 2002, 08:45:48 AM »

As much as I like the Catholic Church, those pics of what looks like an Orthodox bishop (even though he wasn't) submitting to what looks like the Roman Catholic Church (even though it isn't) saddened me a bit and gave me a little case of the creeps.

The sedevacantists in theory can be right - Bellarmine said so - but the burden of proof is on them to show that the current Pope is a heretic according to Catholic teachings.
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« Reply #16 on: October 29, 2002, 10:26:13 AM »

My friends, I have remained silent on this thread because of my traditionalist tendencies which I thought would only get in the way of a true and charitable discussion.  I can remain silent no longer. By now you have all seen the "Bishop" offering up "Divine Liturgy".  There seems to be more than a few problems with this

1.  A Roman Chalice and no Diskos
2.  A Roman Missal stand
3.  Statue of Fatima (?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?)
4.  no Crucifix
5.  Absolutely nothing Eastern in sight other than his miter.

The CMRI are a bunch of cooks.   I cannot believe this guy has gone to them.  However this does put an interesting twist to the schismatic traditionalist movement.  

However I reiterate that if one is wanting true Traditional Catholicism, go to an Indult or the SSPX.  As one person put it on another forum, worldwide the SSPX have less than a fifth of the people the LA Archdiocese (Roman) has.  Last year LA ordained two men and last year the SSPX ordained 30.

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« Reply #17 on: October 29, 2002, 10:47:01 AM »

[The CMRI are a bunch of cooks.  I cannot believe this guy has gone to them.  However this does put an interesting twist to the schismatic traditionalist movement.]

Joe:  Take a good look at his picture.  He still looks like a kid!  Must be in his early twenties, and already a Bishop!

Chances are that judging by his age and the fact that he's under Denisenko, he probably has little if any seminary or theological background.  Where are the new priests in the so called KP trained?

He most probably has no idea what he is joinin.

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« Reply #18 on: October 29, 2002, 12:26:58 PM »

I have a better explanation, Orthodoc: $$$$$$$$$$$$$$ !

It was revealed on the byzcath forum that the reception took place in the USA!

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« Reply #19 on: October 30, 2002, 12:45:46 AM »

Hypo-Orthodox ,

Glory to Him Forever!

"I sure hope I'm reading you wrong, but it appears to me that Ukrainian *nationalism*and politics is somehow more important than either the Eastern Orthodox or Eastern Catholic faiths to far too many Ukrainians"

For some but you see in Eastern Europe, each country consists of a different ethnic tribe if you will, but with that, the church becomes a part of the culture, a part of the national soul, so the perception of church ang church politics is closely tied to nationalism. It is a fine line between over emphasis of culture and faith, but with all these different ethnic 'tribes' religion and culture form the faith. The whole calendar, languague, history, everything (almost Smiley ) revolves around the church.

The Eastern Faith is dear to many Ukrainians, be it Greek Catholics or uncanonical Orthodox faithful. Look at all the years of Soviet oppression, the UGCC was made an illegal entity, so She went underground, a martyred church. Also, the church in Ukraine preserves the Ukrainian languague in a country where Russian, and I know first hand, is predominant, unfortunately.

In the States,  Ukrainians fled to come to freedom, so they took advantage of the situation and organized many churches, where not only were they a spiritual hub, but a cultural center. The culture and faith mix and form the Church (I am speaking on behalf of us Ukes).

"What's with this title of "Patriarch" Lubomyr?  Isn't the OFFICIAL title (bestowed by Rome) of the head of the UGCC "Major Archbishop of L'viv"?  And isn't His Eminence, Lubomyr Husar a Cardinal of the Roman Catholic Church? "

This past July, the UGCC had a SObor in L'viv and following it, the bishops held a synod in Kyiv (Kiev) and proclaimed the church a Patriarchate and a Patriarchal Sobor is being built in Kyiv as we speak. Rome has not given approval but the Eastern Congreation more than likely will , because an Eastern hierarch is FINALLY in charge of it.  Patriarch Lubomyr is a Cardinal, yes. The title bestowed by Rome doesn't matter to Ukrainians. Most were calling the See a Patriarchate since the time of Patriarch Slypiy. Every Ukr. Cath. Bishop has ordered all the parishes to commend Husar as Patriarch during Liturgy now.

"What's the difference between being ecclesiastically subject to Rome or Moscow?"

Rome lets the UGCC exist, and promotes it return to her Eastern spiritual roots. Moscow made it illegal and would LOVE to see every Ukrainian church be disbanded.

There is also a large dislike (I am using nice words) amoung Ukrainians towards Russia. Serge could maybe comment on Russian view about us, since he is involved in Russian culture and spirituality. He also has interesting views on the people of Kyivan-Rus'.

"Or doesn' t it matter in the end, just so long as there is unification as a united Ukrainian people?  Tell that to all the Ukrainian Pentecostal immigrants we have arriving daily in my area"

Most of them are Russified. There are a said 300,000 in Sacramento. That is 300,000 who belong in UOC or UGC churches, but that's just me.

"One last point: NOT ALL Autocephalous Orthodox Churches have a Primate bearing the title of "Patriarch.""

I know, the UAOC in Ukraine is under Metropolitan Meofodiy of Ternopil.

"If Rome awards Cardinal Husar the title of "Patriarch" it would only be to win more Ukrainians--Orthodox Ukrainians--to the Unia under Rome, IMHO"

Possibly. But the UGCC is (was) the largest Eastern Catholic Church. All of the small ones have a patriarchate. It is only political that the UGCC hasn't been recognized as a Patriarchate. It is because, in my opinion, if Rome did, forget any chance of communication with Moscow and Agent Dvozhdy errrr I mean Partiarch Alexiy II.

Hope I cleared some things up. Serge, please comment on your views of Rus' and how culture and religion mix to make the faith of the people. I always like reading your ideas on it, because I am used to the Ukrainians are God's chosen people spin  Cool

surferuke
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« Reply #20 on: October 30, 2002, 11:37:59 AM »

[The Eastern Faith is dear to many Ukrainians, be it Greek Catholics or uncanonical Orthodox faithful. ]

If the Eastern Faith was so dear to the Ukrainians, then it would be used to further the very reason for its existence - to preach the Gospel of Christ.  Instead, it is used to perserve and perpetuate ethnic, political, and cultural, and national divisions and hatereds!  Your posts are a prime example.  This site is designed to discuss religious rather than ethnic issues.
   
A  Ukrainian once told me that most Ukrainians have loyalty to neither Rome, Constantinople, or Luther.  They will go to the church whose choir can sing 'God Bless Ukraine' the loudest.  Their only steadfast loyalty is to Ukraine.  So much for their loyalty to the Eastern Faith.

Ukrainians come in here to criticize the MP and  praise the Pope.  They complain about the control of the MP over some of their churches and act as if they are independent of Rome when their church itself is still "UNDER' Rome not matter how many buzz words the Vatican comes up with to confuse and take advantage of the ignorance and fierce nationalism of the people.  They seem to think that the 'automonous status of the canonical Ukrianian Orthodox Church still makes it subservient to Moscow.  More so than they are subservient to Rome.  And yet  they can't seem to see the forest for the trees.  To those who think that way, may I point out one big difference -  If and when  the MP or any Orthodox Patriarch for that matter,  visits the Ukraine - not one Ukrainian bishop, priest, or layperson will be required to kneel in front of him and kiss his hand, foot, ring, or any other part of his anatomy for that matter!  So much for who is required to be more subservient!

Excuse the tirade but in the past few days I have seen two new members from the  'Byzantine Forum' come in here.  And, from their posts so far, can only surmise their main reason is to troll. One is the reason I left that forum in the first place.  When he used the forum to send me a private  email reminding me he had a Phd when I accused him of being ignorant of church history when he claimed the Byzantine Catholic Church  has always been  'In Communion' with Rome.  My only comment is that his Phd certainly was not in the male anatomy  since he used many guttural terms to label me.  And then demanded on the 'other' forum that I apologize to him!

The other, seems to get get joy in labeling the MP by his so called KGB code name.  He can't even respect a man who, as I write this, lies in a Moscow hospital in critical condition after suffering another heart attack.  A man who had worked tirelessly rebuilding the ROC (check out the statistics on the Russian Orthodox website and see the growth  statistics since 1988).

Once again, common sense should tell him that anyone who is anyone  regarding influence  amongst the people would have a code name.  This includes the Pope of Rome.

Excuse the tirade but I see some people have come in here a trolling and  feel the necessity to point it out.

Lets get back to theology!

Orthodoc

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« Reply #21 on: October 30, 2002, 01:08:47 PM »

Orthodoc!
   I was just posting what I see about how Ukrainians view their church! That doesn't  really mean I agree with them. I am very involved in my church for church, not cultural reasons. For many people, steadfast loyalty is to the church not Ukraine. My great-grandfather was a priest and he was killed by being disloacted at the all joints and his tounge was cut off. This was 1952 for celebrating a clandestine Liturgy. He died for his faith, not Ukraine.

   I complain about the MP because they hinder the growth of a united Kyivan (not Ukrainian) Patriarchate. He was a KGB agent, not so called, so that explains itself. He is not in critical condition, he is supposed to be released today.

   I didn't come from the other forum within the past few days, and I was here at this forum since its beginning, the first time before the new server.

   I am not Alex (OrthodoxCatholic)!! I only know him thru the other forum. My name is Luke and I live in San dIego, California not Toronto Canada! I am not a troll. I have a different name on the other forum but I am not a troll!

   I agree let's get back to theology but I was explaining how many Ukrainians in Ukraine view religion. The culture and faith make the religion. Plain and simple. It is sad to think that you believe that Ukrainians only have the Eastern Faith for cultural purposes. That is not true.

   Maybe I view things different from you because I am cradle and Ukrainian, which I don't think you are, and I  come from a family where I have (marytr)saints, (martyr) bishops, and (marytr) priests in my family. They died for thier faith, not Ukraine.

surferuke

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« Reply #22 on: October 30, 2002, 03:00:34 PM »

[I complain about the MP because they hinder the growth of a united Kyivan (not Ukrainian) Patriarchate.]

You can complain about it, but keep out the personal stink.  I too, support a CANONICAL  autocephalous Ukrainian Patriarchate.  But one that is formed according to the canons of the Church, not political or nationalist ambition.

[He was a KGB agent, not so called, so that explains itself.]

You stated that you are a member of the so called Kievan Patriachate.  Have you ever looked into the past of your current  non canonical Patriarchate?  I could get down to your level and print plenty here in regards to his being supportive of communism.  
I could also submit a picture of a Ukrainian  Catholic priest with his Epitrachelion over his  SS uniform putting on his Cuffs preparing to serve a Divine Liturgy to the Ukrainian SS troops.  But for what?  To get down to your level.  I think not.

POINT:  Both communism and the 'Third Reich' are dead and buried.  There were plenty of priests, ministers, bishops, etc. that  either did what they had to do to  perserve their church and its people - be they be Orthodox Catholic, Roman Catholic, Ukrainian Catholic, or Protestant.  A lot made mistakes.  Or wrong choices with good intentions were made by them during that time.  So what do you accomplish when you come in here and try and open  those  graves for the stink to come thru?  If you can't show respect for the Moscow Patriarch and the people in here who are either  loyal to it, suffered for it, or support it..don't say anything at all.

[I am not Alex (OrthodoxCatholic)!! I only know him thru the other forum.]

I don't understand why you even bring him up.  I never thought you were Alex or is the other I person mentioned Alex.  After I left the other Forum Alex sent me a private message which I repied to explaining my reason for leaving.  He knows why I left and that he was not the reason.  I have a high regard for Alex even though I find him amusing and controversial at times.  He remains a friend and I wish him well.    

[Maybe I view things different from you because I am cradle and Ukrainian, which I don't think you are,]

I am cradle Orthodox and second generation American born.  My ethnic background is Carpatho Russian (Lemko),  Polish, and Croation. There are many Ukrianians out there that tell me, because I am Lemko, I'm Ukrainian.  I don't take it as an insult because it is not as important as either my religion or my American identity.   I belong to an Orthodox Catholic parish that is pan-Orthodox with Orthodox from all the various ethnic backgrounds as well as a large number of converts from various backgrounds.  The parish was originally formed by immigrants who identified themselves as Russians, Lemkos,  Carpatho Russian, Belarussian, and Ukrainian.  And, not once in the almost twenty years I have been a member have I ever heard any member argue over nationality or politics in the 'Old Country'.  We are Orthodox first, American second, and ethnic third.  When we get together we discuss Christ and Orthodoxy because that is what the parish is centered around.  And thats what attracts the non-Orthodox to us.

Orthodoc
.  

   
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« Reply #23 on: October 30, 2002, 03:30:15 PM »

When did I say I was a member of the KP??

I belong to the UOC-USA inder the EP, which is canonical.

And about bringing up Alex, you mentioned a PhD and Orthodox in communion with Rome so I immeaditately thought of him.

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« Reply #24 on: October 30, 2002, 10:28:59 PM »

When did I say I was a member of the KP??

I belong to the UOC-USA inder the EP, which is canonical.
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This is true, surferuke.  I remember your post about Archbishop Vsevolod coming to your parish in CA for its anniversary and your inviting all who could to come.  Also, you mentioned a UOC-USA parish in Phoenix defecting to the KP (now I have to tell my son in Tucson not to attend St. Mary Protectress Ukrainian Orthodox parish, Tucson, a mission of the defecting Phoenix parish, because it's no longer canonical!).

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« Reply #25 on: October 30, 2002, 11:05:28 PM »

Our occasional visitor Viktor belongs to the KP.
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« Reply #26 on: November 22, 2002, 06:12:50 PM »

It seems this fellow is denying he converted:

http://www.risu.org.ua/article.php?sid=577&offsets=&l=ua

http://www.orthodox.org.ua/win/news/2002r-004.html#169
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« Reply #27 on: November 23, 2002, 01:24:59 PM »

Serge,

Got that in English?  In anycase what does he say he think he was doing?

In Christ,
Lance
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« Reply #28 on: November 23, 2002, 01:31:57 PM »

Lance,

http://www.risu.org.ua/article.php?sid=565&offsets=&l=en
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« Reply #29 on: November 23, 2002, 02:16:10 PM »

Wonder how he explains the pictures!

Orthodoc
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« Reply #30 on: November 23, 2002, 05:44:49 PM »

Yes, I'm sure a marginal group of American RC sedevecantists went out of their way (with a photoshop wizard no less, as that was some good "doctoring") to discredit an organization whose ecclessiological conflicts with Moscow not only are hardly understood, but hardly even matter.

Rrrrright.  How about just admitting you're going crackers and getting some help?

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« Reply #31 on: November 23, 2002, 07:41:29 PM »


I'm confused!  Isn't this the same non canonical Ukrianian bishop that left the OC-KP for some non canonical traditionalist Roman Catholic sect here in the U.S.?  Where the the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church fit in all this?  

Orthodoc
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« Reply #32 on: November 23, 2002, 09:56:24 PM »

I don't think the UGCC ever did factor into this.  People heard that a KP bishop was "becoming Catholic" and assumed he was moving toward the UGCC.  That's my guess anyway.  I think no one really seems to know what happened, especially that bishop.  Smiley
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« Reply #33 on: November 28, 2002, 02:35:50 AM »

Hi

My theory is that this is in fact a blend of confussion (or ignorance?). The Bishop of Donetsk migh have had some contacts with priests from Germany thinking they were really Catholic priests. I don't doubt his intentions were to be received in the UGCC, and it was too late when he realized that the CMRI was not the UGCC. And there's one thing, under the present circunstances, I don't think that the UGCC would take the risk of offending the Orthodox Church again, by accepting one Orthodox Bishop (and more if he is from the non-canonical group, as Patriarch Alexei II has said the KP-UOC is uniat in spirit)

The CMRI seems not to be a serious group and their possitions are even more twisted than those of other "sedevacantist" groups. What authority did Mr Pivarunas had to receive a Bishop into the Catholic Church?
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« Reply #34 on: September 19, 2007, 01:30:30 AM »

  "Patirarch" Filaret of the "Kyivan Patriarchate" was a leading candidate to be elected Patriarch of Moscow afterthe death of Patriarch Pimen. When he was not elected, he jumped ship, and became the "Patriarch" of ONE of the several Ukrainian "Autocephalous" churches. He was deposed by the Moscow Patriarchate because of schism, and because he was keeping house with a mistress and their children. Also, I believe, while this is undoubtedly about the most double faced thing I have ever seen from any church, the MP deposed Filaret because he had been a KGB agent! SO, whatis OK for Alexey is not OK for others or . . . ? But, Filaret was one of the worst of the worst MP Bishops who worked closely with the KGB to the detriment of the Orthodox Church and Orthodox Christians.
   Any future conglomeration of Ukrainians in a church which includes Filaret will be poorly served by this person who apparently has only his best interest at heart. While in the MP, of course, he denied that the Ukraine should have an "autocephalopus" church; after the MP kicked him out, all of a sudden, an "autocephalous" church of Ukriane becomes a necessity and a right! Fake, phony, charlatan, KGB agent-really good guy!
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