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Author Topic: Can unchrismated believer partake of the Holy Eucharist?  (Read 8129 times) Average Rating: 0
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serb1389
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« Reply #45 on: January 09, 2008, 08:03:44 PM »

It's the only thing that makes sense here, IMHO.  Receving communion essentially makes you Orthodox.  One consequence of a non-iilumined person receiving the Eucharist is that  the recipient is just being deprived of everything that comes with chrismation, such as protection from demonic attacks, the seal of the gift of the Holy Spirit etc.  I don't see this action as something doing any favours for the uniniated!

I agree.  Also, it's as if to say that all the other prayers of the church are "not good enough."

As if Paraklisis is not good enough, or a vespers service, or any of the other miriad of services in the Orthodox church are not good enough to protect this person.  ONLY the Eucharist?  I am sorry, I have a huge problem with that. 

eh...some more cents just added...giving me the grand total of .05
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« Reply #46 on: February 22, 2008, 12:14:00 PM »

In my OCA parish I can see how someone can slip in who is not chrismated sincethere is sometimes as many as 200 plus folks in line but the Priests do try to be introduced to new comers asking for communion. I have a Romanian friend whom I brought to Church a couple of times and had to vouch for her. Our Priest basically said that "I trust you" that she was not only Orthodox but prepared to communion.

We are a typical suburban OCA parish not known for being overly strict.. At the local Rocor Church that I often visit, you must not only be known to the Priest but I wouldn't think of asking for communion without having confessed beforehand.

I simply cant believe there is an Orthodox Priest out there who wants to give comunion to unchrismated catechumans. I think we are missing some vital piece of info.
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« Reply #47 on: February 22, 2008, 02:15:36 PM »



I simply cant believe there is an Orthodox Priest out there who wants to give comunion to unchrismated catechumans. I think we are missing some vital piece of info.

What are we missing...believe me they exist, and I have witnessed it, as I am sure others have as well...it is a reality that we have to deal with. 
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« Reply #48 on: February 22, 2008, 02:40:13 PM »

What are we missing...believe me they exist, and I have witnessed it, as I am sure others have as well...it is a reality that we have to deal with. 

WE must pray for these priests..not "deal with" the false acts of 'spirituality' they engage in.

Giving a non-beleiver Holy Communion is a crime.

The person is being given a false truth. It is like a lawyer hiding or dismissing evidence which is also a crime.
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« Reply #49 on: February 22, 2008, 02:55:44 PM »

Giving a non-beleiver Holy Communion is a crime.

The person is being given a false truth. It is like a lawyer hiding or dismissing evidence which is also a crime.

Really?  Would you care to show me where we have made that a crime?  Since I'm in Texas, a citation to either the Texas Penal Code or the United States Code (if it's a federal crime) will suffice.
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« Reply #50 on: February 22, 2008, 03:07:17 PM »

What are we missing...believe me they exist, and I have witnessed it, as I am sure others have as well...it is a reality that we have to deal with. 

I think you are right.  I have come to see in the last little while that there are a lot more liberal attitudes present in the Orthodox Church than I ever used to think was possible. 
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« Reply #51 on: February 22, 2008, 03:18:33 PM »

WE must pray for these priests..not "deal with" the false acts of 'spirituality' they engage in.

Giving a non-beleiver Holy Communion is a crime.

The person is being given a false truth. It is like a lawyer hiding or dismissing evidence which is also a crime.

I know I am not in the church yet, but yall sound very legalistic. It is one of the reasons I left Islam, because they were too legalistic.  Judaism was very legalistic, and Jesus came and brought the Spirit of the Law.  And Islam seems like they need Jesus now, so He can give them the spirit of the law.  And the way you sound now in this thread, it seems like yall need Jesus to, to give yall the Spirit of the law.

It is still beyond me why one has to wait a year to be Baptized?  And then you still might not get baptized.  It is like I want to learn about spirituality of Christianity but can't really do nothing until I get baptized.  I was reading this book entitled, The Path to Salvation (A Manual of Spiritual Transformation) by St Theophan The Recluse. In the first chapter it speaks of Baptism and its important role in Spirituality.  But I am shut off from Spirituality because of Church rules, which Jesus himself did not make.  It is very frustrating to me.

I don't know but it is my rant for today.



 
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« Reply #52 on: February 22, 2008, 03:26:35 PM »

I know I am not in the church yet, but yall sound very legalistic. It is one of the reasons I left Islam, because they were too legalistic.  Judaism was very legalistic, and Jesus came and brought the Spirit of the Law.  And Islam seems like they need Jesus now, so He can give them the spirit of the law.  And the way you sound now in this thread, it seems like yall need Jesus to, to give yall the Spirit of the law.

It is still beyond me why one has to wait a year to be Baptized?  And then you still might not get baptized.  It is like I want to learn about spirituality of Christianity but can't really do nothing until I get baptized.  I was reading this book entitled, The Path to Salvation (A Manual of Spiritual Transformation) by St Theophan The Recluse. In the first chapter it speaks of Baptism and its important role in Spirituality.  But I am shut off from Spirituality because of Church rules, which Jesus himself did not make.  It is very frustrating to me.

I don't know but it is my rant for today.


If you have to wait a year to be baptized, it is because that is the amount of time that your bishop and/or Synod have determined is a sufficient period of instruction and preparation.  Baptism isn't merely a ritual of initiation, but a dramatic transformation of one's life.  It is thus not something to be entered into lightly or upon a whim.  Waiting a year allows some time for any superficial infatuation with Orthodoxy to wear off, ensuring that you are coming to Orthodoxy because you believe it to be truth rather than seeking your latest spiritual thrill.  The rules and waiting period is there for a reason, not simply for the sake of creating some hoops through which to jump.
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« Reply #53 on: February 22, 2008, 03:39:13 PM »

If you have to wait a year to be baptized, it is because that is the amount of time that your bishop and/or Synod have determined is a sufficient period of instruction and preparation.  Baptism isn't merely a ritual of initiation, but a dramatic transformation of one's life.  It is thus not something to be entered into lightly or upon a whim.  Waiting a year allows some time for any superficial infatuation with Orthodoxy to wear off, ensuring that you are coming to Orthodoxy because you believe it to be truth rather than seeking your latest spiritual thrill.  The rules and waiting period is there for a reason, not simply for the sake of creating some hoops through which to jump.

Well maybe that is how it works are your church.  But there is no instruction or preparation at the church I go to.

So in theory you answer sounds nice, but in practice, not very applicable.

So it is very legalistic practice at my church, it is applied without meaning at my church, perhaps with meaning at your church. I've even heard it is applied legalistically where instruction is given.  If a person is well informed about the Orthodox Church, its theology and practices, the wait is still a year.

So it is very legalistic in nature in terms of practice. But I guess rules are rules.  So I'll wait a year with or without instruction, its all the same just as long as you follow the rules.  I guess one would reply, it is about testing one sincerety.  Does one really want to be part of the church or is it all talk? 
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« Reply #54 on: February 22, 2008, 03:44:01 PM »

Well maybe that is how it works are your church.  But there is no instruction or preparation at the church I go to.

So in theory you answer sounds nice, but in practice, not very applicable.

So it is very legalistic practice at my church, it is applied without meaning at my church, perhaps with meaning at your church. I've even heard it is applied legalistically where instruction is given.  If a person is well informed about the Orthodox Church, its theology and practices, the wait is still a year.

So it is very legalistic in nature in terms of practice.


First, the fact you don't receive instruction is a problem with your priest, not the rule set forth by your bishop.

Second, the mere fact that there is a rule doesn't make it legalistic.  The mere fact that rules exist isn't legalism; rules solely for the sake of rules is legalism.  You apparently ignored a portion of my post in order to jump on the instruction portion.  Once again, the waiting period also serves the goal of making sure there is a cooling off period and that a person truly desires to become Orthodox, which requires work, rather than simply looking for their latest spiritual high.  Theosis is a hard, lifelong work.  If someone can't be constant enough to be faithful to Orthodoxy to the year, are they really going to be faithful to Orthodoxy for a lifetime? 
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« Reply #55 on: February 22, 2008, 03:46:06 PM »

WE must pray for these priests..not "deal with" the false acts of 'spirituality' they engage in.

Giving a non-beleiver Holy Communion is a crime.

The person is being given a false truth. It is like a lawyer hiding or dismissing evidence which is also a crime.

Since when does dealing with it not include prayer.  That is why I put that particular phrase, because many of us abuse it and make it into a flipant response.  Dealing with something includes coping, taking action, prayer, etc.  ANY way that you feel like dealing with it.  
I think you are right.  I have come to see in the last little while that there are a lot more liberal attitudes present in the Orthodox Church than I ever used to think was possible. 

That's an interesting statement...would you care to elaborate?  

I know I am not in the church yet, but yall sound very legalistic. It is one of the reasons I left Islam, because they were too legalistic.  Judaism was very legalistic, and Jesus came and brought the Spirit of the Law.  And Islam seems like they need Jesus now, so He can give them the spirit of the law.  And the way you sound now in this thread, it seems like yall need Jesus to, to give yall the Spirit of the law.

Legalistic?  What do you mean?  If you are talking about our interpretation of giving communion...then perhaps we ARE legalistic.  

But also let me ask you this.  What does scripture mean by telling us that we do not give pearls to the swine?  

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« Reply #56 on: February 22, 2008, 04:10:05 PM »

If someone can't be constant enough to be faithful to Orthodoxy to the year, are they really going to be faithful to Orthodoxy for a lifetime? 

I have no choice but to wait, so i guess i have to wait.  But I don't see the wisdom in the rule.

And the answer to your question, it depends on the individual, everybody enters into Christianity for different reasons and leaves the religion for different reasons.

Some become Orthodox in order to marry an Orthodox, I've seen this, even among the Catholics.  However within this group, some become strong believers while others will leave as soon as their wife leaves them.  So while the intention is not very sound, the end results may differ depending on the person.

So it depends on the individual.
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« Reply #57 on: February 22, 2008, 04:19:20 PM »


Legalistic?  What do you mean?  If you are talking about our interpretation of giving communion...then perhaps we ARE legalistic.  

But also let me ask you this.  What does scripture mean by telling us that we do not give pearls to the swine?  



I don't know that lady, but from the looks of it, she is a full fledge Christian, she has been baptized. 

Casting the pearls to the swine.  The meaning of this is quite clear.  But I hardly doubt she is a swine.

Legalistic is when you look at the outward and refused to look inwardly. Perhaps the priest sees that she is Christian, endowed with the Holy Spirit. Perhaps he has a gift others do not. However because of legalism, he has commited a crime.

There has to be a middle path, yes there must be rules, but the spirit should also have a say.  The Outward and the inward should be reviewed. Not just the outward.

When I read the Gospel of Jesus, The Law is important, but we must not neglect the inward. Moses brought the law and grace came by way of Jesus.

It just seems to me that in this board, the priest was attacked merely on legalistic ground, without reviewing the spiritual aspects of the situation. And Our Lord knows best.

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« Reply #58 on: February 22, 2008, 04:24:57 PM »

Really?  Would you care to show me where we have made that a crime?  Since I'm in Texas, a citation to either the Texas Penal Code or the United States Code (if it's a federal crime) will suffice.

Very funny..LOL

I think it's US Federal code...

You are joking right!
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« Reply #59 on: February 22, 2008, 04:30:31 PM »

I have no choice but to wait, so i guess i have to wait.  But I don't see the wisdom in the rule.


Perhaps right now you don't see the wisdom.  But the Church has adhered to this practice for its entire history.  Now is the perfect time to try and practice humility and accept the Church's practice and pray for the grace to someday see the wisdom in it.
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« Reply #60 on: February 22, 2008, 04:33:43 PM »

I know I am not in the church yet, but yall sound very legalistic. It is one of the reasons I left Islam, because they were too legalistic.  Judaism was very legalistic, and Jesus came and brought the Spirit of the Law.  And Islam seems like they need Jesus now, so He can give them the spirit of the law.  And the way you sound now in this thread, it seems like yall need Jesus to, to give yall the Spirit of the law.

It is still beyond me why one has to wait a year to be Baptized?  And then you still might not get baptized.  It is like I want to learn about spirituality of Christianity but can't really do nothing until I get baptized.  I was reading this book entitled, The Path to Salvation (A Manual of Spiritual Transformation) by St Theophan The Recluse. In the first chapter it speaks of Baptism and its important role in Spirituality.  But I am shut off from Spirituality because of Church rules, which Jesus himself did not make.  It is very frustrating to me.

I don't know but it is my rant for today.



 

I am hearing you on this.

I do not know about 'waiting' 1 year we have 90 days of catachism (this varies by community I believe); but you must be taught. The faith came to us from Christ through His entire mission completed in fullness on the cross.

WE must suffer like our Lord.

This is our first and most important lesson.

You must "endure to the end".

WE pray for the catachumen in the liturgy just for this reason.

God give you patence and blessing to see your day of salvation...Amen.

Our Lord said: "he who endures to the end shall be saved"
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« Reply #61 on: February 22, 2008, 05:17:42 PM »

Really?  Would you care to show me where we have made that a crime?  Since I'm in Texas, a citation to either the Texas Penal Code or the United States Code (if it's a federal crime) will suffice.

Ya.. I think cannon law and Holy Tradition is what you should be looking into..

But of course, you already knew that.
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« Reply #62 on: February 22, 2008, 05:18:57 PM »

Ya.. I think cannon law and Holy Tradition is what you should be looking into..

But of course, you already knew that.

Remind me to order a sense of humor off eBay for you. Wink
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« Reply #63 on: February 22, 2008, 08:04:13 PM »

I have no choice but to wait, so i guess i have to wait.  But I don't see the wisdom in the rule.

And the answer to your question, it depends on the individual, everybody enters into Christianity for different reasons and leaves the religion for different reasons.

Some become Orthodox in order to marry an Orthodox, I've seen this, even among the Catholics.  However within this group, some become strong believers while others will leave as soon as their wife leaves them.  So while the intention is not very sound, the end results may differ depending on the person.

So it depends on the individual.


The practice of taking a long time to enter into the church is in no way new.  In the days of the early church, it took years to go from inquirer to catechuman, catechuman to illumined (preparing for baptism), illumined to baptized/chrismated.  Note that I said "years."  The fact that it's ONLY a year, or 90 days, or a month, etc., to me, is surprising.  We live in a sound byte nation, in a world where everything is go, go, go, and we have no patience, wanting what we want when we want it (I'm not accusing you of this, I'm just saying generally). 

The waiting period before baptism is not only for LEARNING the faith, it is (more importantly) for LIVING the faith.  One can know all the doctrine, quote the fathers, etc. until they're blue in the face.  But learning HOW to PRAY, how to come to worship services, how to apply Orthodox thinking to everyday life, how to truly become Orthodox in our way of life-- this is what takes a long time.  I'm "cradle" Orthodox, I spent two years at the seminary, and STILL, I'm learning more and more about my faith every day.  More importantly, through frequent confession, reading, watching the examples of my husband, my spiritual father, my bishop, and of course through prayer, I'm learning more and more about how to LIVE as an Orthodox Christian every day.  THIS is what takes so long.  And just when you think you are beginning to get the idea, BAM!  God humbles you. 

Just be patient, my brother in Christ.  In God's time (through the hand of His Holy bishop and His Holy priest who minister to you), you will be initiated into the Church.  Just take it as a practice in humility, obedience, and patience (three virtues that we all struggle with, I'm sure).  Take the time to learn all you can (if there is no instruction at your church--which there should be--find another church that has instruction or ask your priest privately or call your bishop).  Take the time to practice the lifestyle of the Church.

I hope I have not offended you with my words.  If so, I apologize as it was not my intent.  May God bless you in your journey to the faith and may He guide your footsteps always.
With Love in Christ,
Presbytera Mari
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« Reply #64 on: February 22, 2008, 08:18:45 PM »

It took me years to become Orthodox. From the time I first announced my intention to be received to the day I was baptized was over 3 and a half years...that is on top of 4 years of studying about Orthodoxy and visiting Orthodox parishes.

Once it happened I was sure glad it took so long. It really helped me prepare.
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