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Author Topic: Vampirism and Orthodoxy  (Read 4113 times) Average Rating: 0
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plutonas
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« on: June 08, 2003, 12:49:39 PM »

Are there any Orthodox sources in which the Church or any saints/monastics/clerics have spoken clearly about the subject of vampirism?  I've heard that Orthodox priests have carried out exorcisms for such phenomena and in countries like Romania and Russia the Church has not shied away from concerns about vampires.
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« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2003, 11:42:08 PM »

Vampires?  Oh, you mean the wee folk of Rumania.  How delightful!

They've even made a cereal cartoon mascot out of them alongside Lucky.  Count Chocula was it?

Actually plutonas, I'd inquire with the Goths. Wink

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« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2005, 07:04:45 PM »

I stumbled upon this old thread and found the questions asked interesting.

I realize that "vampires" are more Hollywood creation than anything and that I know very little about the theology of the Orthodox faith when compared to the rest of the board, but seriously...

it seems to me that Christians believe in the supernatural - in the Resurrection, in devil, in demons, and in angels.

Are vampires really that far fetched?

I used to read a lot about this stuff as a kid and it seems that most cultures have had various vampire myths and tend to treat them as malevolent demons - not all of whom are blood-sucking  corpses of the Hollywood variety.

Perhaps this fairly common archetype should not be so quickly dismissed. After all, Ive heard Christians point to the "flood story" archetype of many separate cultures as evidence of the Biblical account.

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« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2005, 07:35:06 PM »

Cultural anthropology is a fascinating but very big field. Smiley  I wonder what the Vampire archetype might be in relation to Scripture... Interesting.

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« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2005, 11:37:42 AM »

Hmmm...  if I had a little more time this is actually a rather interesting thing to go into, re mythical creatures.  I was at the National Gallery a few weeks ago, and there's an Italian midevil icon with a St. Anthony (which St. Anthony, I have no idea) speaking to a centure.  I've seen several others also with mythical creatures, though except for this one they were never so obviously interacting with the saint.  Anyway, wish I had time for that, but I've got files to complete and a party to plan for tonight. 

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« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2005, 12:27:40 PM »

Hmmm... if I had a little more time this is actually a rather interesting thing to go into, re mythical creatures. I was at the National Gallery a few weeks ago, and there's an Italian midevil icon with a St. Anthony (which St. Anthony, I have no idea) speaking to a centure. I've seen several others also with mythical creatures, though except for this one they were never so obviously interacting with the saint. Anyway, wish I had time for that, but I've got files to complete and a party to plan for tonight.

Do you mean a Centaur (torso of a man with the body of a horse)?

(Or maybe it is a Liger - known for its skills in magic)
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« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2005, 04:34:49 PM »

Wow Elisha, Nice Napolian Dynamite reference.  Cheesy

I will just post something rather odd about this subject.  The Prototype for the most well known Vampire, count Dracula, is acctually a defender of Orthodoxy (Vlad the Impaler).  And some people even want to make him a Saint. 
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« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2005, 04:40:45 PM »


I will just post something rather odd about this subject. The Prototype for the most well known Vampire, count Dracula, is acctually a defender of Orthodoxy (Vlad the Impaler). And some people even want to make him a Saint.

Beg to differ here.
Vlad the Impaler may have fought the Turks, but he was no defender of Orthodoxy. He was not even Christian but a shrewd ruler who played the Pope and the Orthodox off on one another to his best advantage. He finally became Roman Catholic just before his death.

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« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2005, 06:02:45 PM »

Yeah, my spelin sux, I no.  :-)  'Specially when I'm sleep deprived and in a hury.  Now of to the likur stor...
That's what I meant Elisha, a Centaur.
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« Reply #9 on: February 01, 2005, 04:51:27 AM »



Beg to differ here.
Vlad the Impaler may have fought the Turks, but he was no defender of Orthodoxy. He was not even Christian but a shrewd ruler who played the Pope and the Orthodox off on one another to his best advantage. He finally became Roman Catholic just before his death.



I quite agree. I've never heard anyone (and I'm Romanian Orthodox) suggest that either Vlad Tepes (that's Vlad the Impaler) or Vlad Dracul (that's Vlad the Devil) should be declared as saints. Bram Stoker, clearly confused the two voievods when he wrote Dracula, seemingly basing it on the Saxon (distorted) story of Vlad Tepes whilst basing the name on his grandfather (and most people get the etymology of that name wrong, too - dragon in Romanian is 'balaur') - and getting their nationality wrong to boot, they were Wallachian not Transylvanian.

Vlad Tepes is seen as a national hero for his stand against both Turks and boyars, but he is not seen as holy. His cousin, Stefan cel Mare, voievod of Moldavia (see the icon on the left) is, however, an Orthodox saint. His character was rather different, though!

In actual fact, I've yet to come across a single Romanian folk tale involving vampires. There may be some, but it's generally (except by those wanting to cash in on Dracula) seen as a foreign, usually Russian, idea. The big thing in Romanian folk tales (other than giants, ogres, dwarves and dragons that are common in most of Europe) seems to be werewolves. I can understand that. Spend some time in the forests of the Carpathian mountains and you might almost be tempted to believe in such things yourself.

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« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2005, 07:16:33 AM »

I have been curious about this subject. Ive heard that Orthodox priests in the eastern european region thought of werewolves and vampires as a form of demonic possession. Can anyone recommend some books on the subject of Vampirism, Vald the Impaler and their relation to the Orthodox Church?

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« Reply #11 on: February 03, 2005, 08:26:31 AM »

I have been curious about this subject. Ive heard that Orthodox priests in the eastern european region thought of werewolves and vampires as a form of demonic possession. Can anyone recommend some books on the subject of Vampirism, Vald the Impaler and their relation to the Orthodox Church?

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Justinian,

Unfortunately, unless you read Romanian I can't really recommend anything on Vlad Tepes. All the histories of him I've found in the west have been uniformly awful. There may be something decent out there, but I've yet to find one that sticks to the facts rather than coming up with sensationalist Bram Stoker style rubbish. And they invariably get the origin of the name Dracul wrong. The number of times I've had to read through drivel stating something to the effect that Vlad Dracul (Vlad Tepes's grandfather - as I said before, they're often confused) was given the name because he was a member of some 'Order of the Dragon' is unbelievable.

If that explanation were true, then he'd have to have been called either Vlad Balaurul or Vlad Dragonul (though the last would be really unusual - almost nobody uses 'dragon'). Dracul, on the other hand, can only ever mean 'the devil' (-ul is the masculine definite article in Romanian). Vlad Dracul was actually given the name because he fought like a devil against the Turks. There is nothing remotely related to vampirism in the history or even the folklore surrounding either Vlad Dracul or Vlad Tepes. The only explanation I can come up with for the whole Dracula thing (that word isn't even possible in Romanian, by the way) is that he must have heard the story of the Hungarian Countess Bathory, who really did bathe in virgins' blood in an attempt to stay young - that was whilst Transylvania was occupied by the Hungarian Empire. As I said in my last post, the idea of vampires seems to be foreign to Romania.

Now (sorry about the rant, but this is a major bugbear of mine), to get to something that is genuinely Romanian - werewolves. You are right that they were considered demonic in Romania. There is a folk story of a monk at a monastery who had come under spiritual delusion and was able, through the power of the devil, to manifest his spirit as a wolf which roamed the countryside while he was meditating alone in his cell. If I remember correctly the monk was injured when the wolf was but then was healed and restored to the faith by his fellow monks. Romanian werewolf stories tend to be more like this than the usual Hollywood shape-changer type image. Whether or not there was any seed of fact that started off this story, I don't know, though it may be. Certainly, people take the idea of possession and the like very seriously in rural areas like Bucovina (where I used to work) and still will go or be taken to a priest to be exorcised - that's not something you see much of in the west!

Sorry I can't be more help. If you have any questions about Romanian history or folklore I'll do my best to help. If I don't know the answer, I should be able to find out, either by going to Romanian written sources or asking friends and relatives.

James
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« Reply #12 on: February 03, 2005, 12:18:26 PM »

Something interesting on this point.  It appears that among some (Carpatho-Russians for example) there is a right of "sealing the grave."  Apparently this is absent from the official books but it is in the books that the priests now use.  I am told this comes from a fear of vampires.
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« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2005, 03:34:12 PM »

I don't know whether or not in real life, vampirism is ever an actual form of demonic posession but it is true that there are all kinds of folklore and superstition. I think the word Vampire is of Hungarian/Balkan origin, with roots in Serbia and/or nearby countries. In Serbian, "povampiriti se" means something like rise from the dead (I think in a NEGATIVE, demonic sense), become a werewolf or similar.
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« Reply #14 on: February 26, 2005, 05:49:23 AM »

This is fascinating.

I appreciate the clarification on Vlad Dracul and Vlad Tepes, btw, James.  Very helpful.
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« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2012, 10:10:48 PM »

Bump.

Maybe augustin can comment here and tell us about the Orthodox teaching on vampires and werewolves.
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« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2012, 11:50:33 PM »

Bump.

Maybe augustin can comment here and tell us about the Orthodox teaching on vampires and werewolves.
if you are conceived on forbidden  days that's your fate. If you are born with hair, especially red, again it's a sign.
Or if the fairies stole you and replaced you with a copy of yoursel before baptism.  But there are means to avoid that. Like putting red in an infant's crib
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« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2012, 11:59:24 PM »

I dated a Romanian for three+ years.  She spoke of strigoi and the vârcolac.  As she was from the Transylvanian countryside, she believed in them to a degree.  Over the course of our dating, I asked her several times to explain them to me but she never would go into detail.  I think it really scared her as she would always say something like, "We shouldn't talk about them."  

Once, when some friends were over, we ended up watching a show on werewolves (I think it was the History Channel).  She was very uncomfortable and within a few minutes got up and left the room.  I followed her and watched as she made the sign of the cross over a glass of water, then lit a match and extinguished it in the water.  Then she drank it.  I asked her what that meant, and she became irritated that I saw her do this.    
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« Reply #18 on: June 23, 2012, 12:00:45 AM »

Bump.

Maybe augustin can comment here and tell us about the Orthodox teaching on vampires and werewolves.
if you are conceived on forbidden  days that's your fate. If you are born with hair, especially red, again it's a sign.
Or if the fairies stole you and replaced you with a copy of yoursel before baptism.  But there are means to avoid that. Like putting red in an infant's crib


Is that why some Romanian's will tie a red string around a baby's wrist after it's birth?
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« Reply #19 on: June 23, 2012, 12:08:24 AM »

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« Reply #20 on: June 23, 2012, 09:34:23 AM »

Bump.

Maybe augustin can comment here and tell us about the Orthodox teaching on vampires and werewolves.
if you are conceived on forbidden  days that's your fate. If you are born with hair, especially red, again it's a sign.
Or if the fairies stole you and replaced you with a copy of yoursel before baptism.  But there are means to avoid that. Like putting red in an infant's crib


Is that why some Romanian's will tie a red string around a baby's wrist after it's birth?

I think yes.It says that red protects your from "deochi" also.And the practice your girlfriend used is similar with those used for "deochi" .

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« Reply #21 on: June 23, 2012, 12:07:25 PM »

When I was in the Marines at boot camp  on the old Island my rack mate claimed to be a vampire  Roll Eyes Anyways when we would get down time at night to polish our boots or write a quick letter home sometimes we would talk about his Vampirism. He told me a few stories of how vampires our in the Bible and would say that Cain was the father of all vampires. I know of a few Jewish tales and or middle eastern tails of such things. He had with him a book I don't know if you would call it a Vampirism bible or whatever I don't know what it was called or if it even had a name. His stories came from mostly the 2 "Lost"books of Lillith and Enoch.
I did find a story on Yahoo about this the kinda tells of some things that Mike would talk about. Here is the link from yahoo on it http://voices.yahoo.com/are-vampires-biblical-origin-2632078.html  Mike also use to claim that not only did they get life from blood that they could just feed off of peoples energy that's around the body and would go into stories on how this all took place.
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« Reply #22 on: June 23, 2012, 03:22:14 PM »

From Romania: On the trail of Count Dracula/Vlad the Impaler and his connections to Christianity
Quote
"At our second ancient church in the city of Vlad the Impaler – that of St Nicholas – we were met by an elderly professor who took us to the library in the precincts, which contains a remarkable collection of early-Christian books and manuscripts. So sensitive were these in the Stalinist period (the town had been renamed after Stalin in the Fifties – a fact not often mentioned now) that the professor had hidden them away in the church tower to prevent their destruction. As he turned over the pages, he remarked wistfully how odd it was that Romania (an Orthodox country) had adopted the Latin/Roman rather than the Cyrillic script. I found myself wondering about the risks this dedicated scholar must have run in hiding away his precious Christian evidence from Stalin's henchmen."
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« Reply #23 on: June 25, 2012, 03:58:17 AM »

I dated a Romanian for three+ years.  She spoke of strigoi and the vârcolac.  As she was from the Transylvanian countryside, she believed in them to a degree.  Over the course of our dating, I asked her several times to explain them to me but she never would go into detail.  I think it really scared her as she would always say something like, "We shouldn't talk about them."  

Once, when some friends were over, we ended up watching a show on werewolves (I think it was the History Channel).  She was very uncomfortable and within a few minutes got up and left the room.  I followed her and watched as she made the sign of the cross over a glass of water, then lit a match and extinguished it in the water.  Then she drank it.  I asked her what that meant, and she became irritated that I saw her do this.    

A strigoi is kind of like a vampire (not really the same but similar enough, I suppose) but the vârcolac is more like a werewolf. I've never come across either actually being believed in by anyone and my wife's from the countryside in Bucovina where some will still visit witches (and I've heard stern warnings against this in church as a result) and they certainly believe in deochi. Maybe my wife's a bit more grounded than some (unlike my mother-in-law who did say we needed to dress the baby in red prior to baptism) but absolutely nobody has ever given me the impression that the creatures of folklore are anything more than stories.

James
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« Reply #24 on: June 25, 2012, 10:25:25 AM »

There was recently a movie made called Strigoi which plays with the beliefs in a modern Romanian village. It's a pretty good black comedy and worth a watch. Oddly, it's a British movie and all the characters speak English... oh well.
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« Reply #25 on: June 25, 2012, 10:27:50 AM »

There was recently a movie made called Strigoi which plays with the beliefs in a modern Romanian village. It's a pretty good black comedy and worth a watch. Oddly, it's a British movie and all the characters speak English... oh well.

This is in my Netflix queue.  I may watch it during lunch today now.
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« Reply #26 on: June 25, 2012, 10:44:01 AM »

There was recently a movie made called Strigoi which plays with the beliefs in a modern Romanian village. It's a pretty good black comedy and worth a watch. Oddly, it's a British movie and all the characters speak English... oh well.

Interesting. I wonder if they managed to depict what a strigoi is accurately or whether they went instead for the usual blood-sucking Bram Stoker-esque vampire that westerners seem to associate with Romania.

James
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« Reply #27 on: June 25, 2012, 10:48:00 AM »

There was recently a movie made called Strigoi which plays with the beliefs in a modern Romanian village. It's a pretty good black comedy and worth a watch. Oddly, it's a British movie and all the characters speak English... oh well.

Interesting. I wonder if they managed to depict what a strigoi is accurately or whether they went instead for the usual blood-sucking Bram Stoker-esque vampire that westerners seem to associate with Romania.

James

I can't say for sure but the film seemed to me to be fairly well-grounded in the local folklore and did not have much to do with the stereotypes.
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« Reply #28 on: June 25, 2012, 11:13:26 AM »

When I was in the Marines at boot camp  on the old Island my rack mate claimed to be a vampire  Roll Eyes Anyways when we would get down time at night to polish our boots or write a quick letter home sometimes we would talk about his Vampirism. He told me a few stories of how vampires our in the Bible and would say that Cain was the father of all vampires. I know of a few Jewish tales and or middle eastern tails of such things. He had with him a book I don't know if you would call it a Vampirism bible or whatever I don't know what it was called or if it even had a name. His stories came from mostly the 2 "Lost"books of Lillith and Enoch.
I did find a story on Yahoo about this the kinda tells of some things that Mike would talk about. Here is the link from yahoo on it http://voices.yahoo.com/are-vampires-biblical-origin-2632078.html  Mike also use to claim that not only did they get life from blood that they could just feed off of peoples energy that's around the body and would go into stories on how this all took place.
Maybe he was funny in the head?
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« Reply #29 on: June 25, 2012, 11:27:11 AM »

I can't get to me Pedalion right now, but there is at least one canon specifying that Christians ought not attempt to animate corpses through magic.  I believe that htis might be part of Justinian's nomocanon, but I don't have my library available right now.

There are two distinct practices, one is the magical reanimation of a corpse without the original soul (a zombie before the modern notion of a highly-contageous viral infection seen as a type of possession), versus a curse of the entire person.  From what I have read, there are cases where the Church has investigated the former, though I believe the latter has been utterly ruled out as a possibility.

In Greece to this day, when bodies are exumed from graves (they practice common burial plots, with the bones eventually ending up in ossuaries), if the body is not properly decomposed, an exorcism is performed over the body and it is reburied for a time.  The assumption is that satan may be interfering with the decomposition, and this may lead to some of the old suspicions about vampires (especially since the mouth of a corpse can get kind of gory and lock in the open position during the decomposition process, which is why you hear about Christ's burial involving two cloths- one for his body and the other for his head).  After the exorcism, if the body continues to not decompose, it is usually taken as a sign from God.

Here's a secular article: http://www.slate.com/articles/life/faithbased/2011/02/rentagrave.html

I was looking for an article I ran across a few years ago about the problems with cemetaries in Greece being overloaded, with the soil so overburdened that corpses were not decomposing in the alloted time and causing trauma on families who have to witness the gravediggers 'clean' the bones.

In conclusion, I know of no official recognition of either zombies or vampires, though these manifestations have been investigated, though usually as demonic delusions or poor attempts at witchcraft.
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« Reply #30 on: June 25, 2012, 12:07:16 PM »

When I was in the Marines at boot camp  on the old Island my rack mate claimed to be a vampire  Roll Eyes Anyways when we would get down time at night to polish our boots or write a quick letter home sometimes we would talk about his Vampirism. He told me a few stories of how vampires our in the Bible and would say that Cain was the father of all vampires. I know of a few Jewish tales and or middle eastern tails of such things. He had with him a book I don't know if you would call it a Vampirism bible or whatever I don't know what it was called or if it even had a name. His stories came from mostly the 2 "Lost"books of Lillith and Enoch.
I did find a story on Yahoo about this the kinda tells of some things that Mike would talk about. Here is the link from yahoo on it http://voices.yahoo.com/are-vampires-biblical-origin-2632078.html  Mike also use to claim that not only did they get life from blood that they could just feed off of peoples energy that's around the body and would go into stories on how this all took place.
Maybe he was funny in the head?


my impression also :/
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« Reply #31 on: June 25, 2012, 12:10:57 PM »

I had a stilist aquiantance telling me that the reason Vlad the Impaler is made into a vampire and called Dracula is because of the west, because he was a devout Orthodox and a just ruler.
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« Reply #32 on: June 25, 2012, 12:36:01 PM »

I had a stilist aquiantance telling me that the reason Vlad the Impaler is made into a vampire and called Dracula is because of the west, because he was a devout Orthodox and a just ruler.

This would suggest something slightly different and more, shall we say, mundane.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlad_the_Impaler

Seems that his main enemies were Ottoman Turks (muslims), not Western Europeans, and that his reputation was one of great cruelty rather than as a "just ruler".

Can't vouch for the accuracy of the rather long article.



And, what is "a stilist"Huh
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« Reply #33 on: June 25, 2012, 12:41:08 PM »

I had a stilist aquiantance telling me that the reason Vlad the Impaler is made into a vampire and called Dracula is because of the west, because he was a devout Orthodox and a just ruler.

This would suggest something slightly different and more, shall we say, mundane.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlad_the_Impaler

Seems that his main enemies were Ottoman Turks (muslims), not Western Europeans, and that his reputation was one of great cruelty rather than as a "just ruler".

Can't vouch for the accuracy of the rather long article.



And, what is "a stilist"Huh

You don`t know anything of Vlad the Impaler ignorant.He is one of the most just rulers of Transylvania if not Romania.. He was cruel but he was just.He was cruel in his punishments.. On his time there was a golden vessel in the middle of the market and no one stoled it.
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« Reply #34 on: June 25, 2012, 01:01:15 PM »

Or if the fairies stole you and replaced you with a copy of yoursel before baptism. 

In America we call that a "haint".
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« Reply #35 on: June 25, 2012, 01:03:26 PM »

I had a stilist aquiantance telling me that the reason Vlad the Impaler is made into a vampire and called Dracula is because of the west, because he was a devout Orthodox and a just ruler.

This would suggest something slightly different and more, shall we say, mundane.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlad_the_Impaler

Seems that his main enemies were Ottoman Turks (muslims), not Western Europeans, and that his reputation was one of great cruelty rather than as a "just ruler".

Can't vouch for the accuracy of the rather long article.



And, what is "a stilist"Huh

You don`t know anything of Vlad the Impaler ignorant.He is one of the most just rulers of Transylvania if not Romania.. He was cruel but he was just.He was cruel in his punishments.. On his time there was a golden vessel in the middle of the market and no one stoled it.

I'm sure the carriages ran on time too.
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« Reply #36 on: June 25, 2012, 01:06:29 PM »

I wish that we lived in a mystical world where make-believe stories like of vampires and werewolves were re. How come everything cool in history has to be fake? How can all of this be fake if every world culture had some supernatural myths? I wonder if people will look back at our history and dismiss some of our stories as fake. Back on topic, it would be pretty cool of vampires and werewolves were real. Anyone here ever watch Supernatural?
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« Reply #37 on: June 25, 2012, 01:09:20 PM »

Anyone here ever watch Supernatural?

Yeah, it's garbage. There was even an episode with HP Lovecraft and it still sucked. 
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« Reply #38 on: June 25, 2012, 01:10:46 PM »

Anyone here ever watch Supernatural?

Yeah, it's garbage. There was even an episode with HP Lovecraft and it still sucked. 

I enjoy it more than I did Buffy, although I still complain about the internal inconsistencies when they arise, much to my wife's chagrin.
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« Reply #39 on: June 25, 2012, 01:25:02 PM »

I'm about halfway through Strigoi and can't wait to finish it.  Without spoiling it, the strigoi aspect is integral to the plot but it's not a movie about vampires, but more about how bad, greedy choices snowball into something unintentional.
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« Reply #40 on: June 25, 2012, 01:39:30 PM »

I had a stilist aquiantance telling me that the reason Vlad the Impaler is made into a vampire and called Dracula is because of the west, because he was a devout Orthodox and a just ruler.

This would suggest something slightly different and more, shall we say, mundane.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlad_the_Impaler

Seems that his main enemies were Ottoman Turks (muslims), not Western Europeans, and that his reputation was one of great cruelty rather than as a "just ruler".

Can't vouch for the accuracy of the rather long article.



And, what is "a stilist"Huh

You don`t know anything of Vlad the Impaler ignorant.He is one of the most just rulers of Transylvania if not Romania.. He was cruel but he was just.He was cruel in his punishments.. On his time there was a golden vessel in the middle of the market and no one stoled it.

I never said *I* knew anything about him at all.  Cool your jets, dude!  angel

Again, I ask (as I've asked you a number of times before with regard to other words you've used) *what* is a "stilist".  It's obvious that English is not your first language, and I certainly have no problem with that at all.  But if you want people to understand what you write and mean, it only makes sense to provide clarification for words that you use that are unclear and that you are asked about.  Is that so difficult?

And, just out of curiosity, can you cite a reliable historical source (in English) for your claim about the golden vessel and it never being stolen?
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« Reply #41 on: June 25, 2012, 01:45:35 PM »

I had a stilist aquiantance telling me that the reason Vlad the Impaler is made into a vampire and called Dracula is because of the west, because he was a devout Orthodox and a just ruler.

This would suggest something slightly different and more, shall we say, mundane.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlad_the_Impaler

Seems that his main enemies were Ottoman Turks (muslims), not Western Europeans, and that his reputation was one of great cruelty rather than as a "just ruler".

Can't vouch for the accuracy of the rather long article.



And, what is "a stilist"Huh

You don`t know anything of Vlad the Impaler ignorant.He is one of the most just rulers of Transylvania if not Romania.. He was cruel but he was just.He was cruel in his punishments.. On his time there was a golden vessel in the middle of the market and no one stoled it.

I never said *I* knew anything about him at all.  Cool your jets, dude!  angel

Again, I ask (as I've asked you a number of times before with regard to other words you've used) *what* is a "stilist".  It's obvious that English is not your first language, and I certainly have no problem with that at all.  But if you want people to understand what you write and mean, it only makes sense to provide clarification for words that you use that are unclear and that you are asked about.  Is that so difficult?

And, just out of curiosity, can you cite a reliable historical source (in English) for your claim about the golden vessel and it never being stolen?

It's an old story.  I can't give you a primary source, either, but I've read that multiple times over the years in different sources.

It's interesting how apparently living in abject fear of getting a stake shoved up one's posterior can be seen as a virtue, but I can vouch that Azul isn't making that story up.
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« Reply #42 on: June 25, 2012, 01:50:54 PM »

Again, I ask (as I've asked you a number of times before with regard to other words you've used) *what* is a "stilist".  It's obvious that English is not your first language, and I certainly have no problem with that at all.  But if you want people to understand what you write and mean, it only makes sense to provide clarification for words that you use that are unclear and that you are asked about.  Is that so difficult?

A fan of this type of activity.
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« Reply #43 on: June 25, 2012, 02:02:29 PM »

I had a stilist aquiantance telling me that the reason Vlad the Impaler is made into a vampire and called Dracula is because of the west, because he was a devout Orthodox and a just ruler.

This would suggest something slightly different and more, shall we say, mundane.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlad_the_Impaler

Seems that his main enemies were Ottoman Turks (muslims), not Western Europeans, and that his reputation was one of great cruelty rather than as a "just ruler".

Can't vouch for the accuracy of the rather long article.



And, what is "a stilist"Huh

You don`t know anything of Vlad the Impaler ignorant.He is one of the most just rulers of Transylvania if not Romania.. He was cruel but he was just.He was cruel in his punishments.. On his time there was a golden vessel in the middle of the market and no one stoled it.

I never said *I* knew anything about him at all.  Cool your jets, dude!  angel

Again, I ask (as I've asked you a number of times before with regard to other words you've used) *what* is a "stilist".  It's obvious that English is not your first language, and I certainly have no problem with that at all.  But if you want people to understand what you write and mean, it only makes sense to provide clarification for words that you use that are unclear and that you are asked about.  Is that so difficult?

And, just out of curiosity, can you cite a reliable historical source (in English) for your claim about the golden vessel and it never being stolen?

It's an old story.  I can't give you a primary source, either, but I've read that multiple times over the years in different sources.

It's interesting how apparently living in abject fear of getting a stake shoved up one's posterior can be seen as a virtue, but I can vouch that Azul isn't making that story up.

I'm sure he isn't making the story up.  But, as I'm most sure you're very much aware,  lots of stories are just that---stories,  without a basis in actual fact.  I'm just wondering if there are any facts that go along with that particular story.
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« Reply #44 on: June 25, 2012, 02:02:56 PM »

Again, I ask (as I've asked you a number of times before with regard to other words you've used) *what* is a "stilist".  It's obvious that English is not your first language, and I certainly have no problem with that at all.  But if you want people to understand what you write and mean, it only makes sense to provide clarification for words that you use that are unclear and that you are asked about.  Is that so difficult?

A fan of this type of activity.

In what language?
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« Reply #45 on: June 25, 2012, 02:05:28 PM »

Again, I ask (as I've asked you a number of times before with regard to other words you've used) *what* is a "stilist".  It's obvious that English is not your first language, and I certainly have no problem with that at all.  But if you want people to understand what you write and mean, it only makes sense to provide clarification for words that you use that are unclear and that you are asked about.  Is that so difficult?

A fan of this type of activity.

In what language?

Makes me wonder how many foreign languages can you speak fluently.
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« Reply #46 on: June 25, 2012, 02:21:44 PM »

Again, I ask (as I've asked you a number of times before with regard to other words you've used) *what* is a "stilist".  It's obvious that English is not your first language, and I certainly have no problem with that at all.  But if you want people to understand what you write and mean, it only makes sense to provide clarification for words that you use that are unclear and that you are asked about.  Is that so difficult?

A fan of this type of activity.

In what language?

Makes me wonder how many foreign languages can you speak fluently.

Fluently?  One-Hebrew.  Two, if you count Texan.  angel  Three, if you count British English.  angel angel  (Besides, how is my proficiency or lack thereof in multiple foreign languages relevant to the quite simple question I asked?)

But your response doesn't answer my question.  I did, by the way, google the word and got responses that made absolutely no sense at all in the context which Azul used it.
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« Reply #47 on: June 25, 2012, 02:28:59 PM »

Fluently?  One-Hebrew.  Two, if you count Texan.  angel  Three, if you count British English.  angel angel  (Besides, how is my proficiency or lack thereof in multiple foreign languages relevant to the quite simple question I asked?)

Because you make fun of people who do not write English as well as you do

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But your response doesn't answer my question.  I did, by the way, google the word and got responses that made absolutely no sense at all in the context which Azul used it.

It looks like I've overdone comparative linguistics without the context.
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« Reply #48 on: June 25, 2012, 02:33:25 PM »

I think what Michal is getting at is that stilist = stylite
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« Reply #49 on: June 25, 2012, 02:37:11 PM »

Did he climb down from his pillar to chat about history and folklore?
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« Reply #50 on: June 25, 2012, 02:44:01 PM »

Fluently?  One-Hebrew.  Two, if you count Texan.  angel  Three, if you count British English.  angel angel  (Besides, how is my proficiency or lack thereof in multiple foreign languages relevant to the quite simple question I asked?)

Because you make fun of people who do not write English as well as you do

Yeah, I've probably been guilty of that a number of times.  Mea culpa.  And, having traveled in many countries where English is not widely spoken or understood, my sometimes feeble attempts at speaking the native tongue have been sources of uproarious hilarity to others---and myself.  We have have a saying here in the U.S. about being able to take a joke and to laugh at yourself.  It involves profanity so I won't repeat it here.  If you're interested, I'd be happy to send it to you via personal message.

Now, do you want to make this about me and my failings, or do you want to answer the question that I asked, quite sincerely and honestly, about the language and meaning of the word "stilist"?
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« Reply #51 on: June 25, 2012, 02:47:36 PM »

I think what Michal is getting at is that stilist = stylite

That crossed my mind, but I wasn't aware people still sat on pillars for endless hours/days/weeks/months, etc., so I dismissed the idea.  Perhaps I did so prematurely.  But...I did ask...
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« Reply #52 on: June 25, 2012, 02:50:27 PM »

I think what Michal is getting at is that stilist = stylite

That crossed my mind, but I wasn't aware people still sat on pillars for endless hours/days/weeks/months, etc., so I dismissed the idea.  Perhaps I did so prematurely.  But...I did ask...

Yes, I had not read Azul's original post and thought he meant that.
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« Reply #53 on: June 26, 2012, 03:29:50 AM »

I had a stilist aquiantance telling me that the reason Vlad the Impaler is made into a vampire and called Dracula is because of the west, because he was a devout Orthodox and a just ruler.

This would suggest something slightly different and more, shall we say, mundane.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlad_the_Impaler

Seems that his main enemies were Ottoman Turks (muslims), not Western Europeans, and that his reputation was one of great cruelty rather than as a "just ruler".

Can't vouch for the accuracy of the rather long article.



And, what is "a stilist"Huh

You don`t know anything of Vlad the Impaler ignorant.He is one of the most just rulers of Transylvania if not Romania.. He was cruel but he was just.He was cruel in his punishments.. On his time there was a golden vessel in the middle of the market and no one stoled it.

Vlad Tepes never ruled Transylvania. He was Voievod of Wallachia (Tara Romaneasca). Yes he's renowned for being just (though the story you tell is one of many variants and likely a legend meant to show how the people feared and respected him) but he was also extremely cruel - hence the 'Impaler' moniker. He certainly wasn't, unlike his cousin Stefan, devoutly Orthodox however, as he converted to Roman Catholicism in order to attempt to get political and military support from Roman Catholic states against the Turks. When that fell through he returned to Orthodoxy and during his second reign (he ruled twice) his only real ally was Stefan cel Mare's Moldova.

As to the argument that his main enemies and the source of propaganda stories were the Turks made above, this is definitely untrue. The majority of the stories come from the Saxons in Transylvania (he was not particularly well disposed towards their merchants) which is why they were so prevalent in Hungary at the time Stoker was writing Dracula.

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« Reply #54 on: June 26, 2012, 09:59:48 AM »

Stilist is a typo for stylist.  The person who does someone's hair.  Barber.

J Michael, you seriously couldn't get stylist out of stilist?  You seemed to understand that aquiantance, stood for acquaintance without any problem.
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« Reply #55 on: June 26, 2012, 10:27:39 AM »

Stilist is a typo for stylist.  The person who does someone's hair.  Barber.

J Michael, you seriously couldn't get stylist out of stilist?  You seemed to understand that aquiantance, stood for acquaintance without any problem.


Are you sure?  What does the fact that this acquaintance is a barber have to do with anything and what gravity do the opinions of a hairdresser have about the history of Vlad Tepes?
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« Reply #56 on: June 26, 2012, 10:34:23 AM »

And I finished watching Strigoi last night.  Some possible spoilers ahead:












The ending was weird and leaves all sorts of loose ends untied.  The vampires were taken care of but the real monsters, the greedy humans, were still around.  The vampires were not treated as being inherently evil beings, but actually victims of violent deaths and burial in unconsecrated ground.  They weren't entirely sympathetic, but just intelligent walking dead.  They certainly weren't the teeth-baring maniacs of Hollywood, but more in tune with what I know of the original Romanian folklore.  The folklore itself was treated pretty respectfully in context with the story which was, as I said, really about simple human greed and deception.  The priest of the village is, as one would expect in such a film, an outright villain.

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« Reply #57 on: June 26, 2012, 12:21:37 PM »

Stilist is a typo for stylist.  The person who does someone's hair.  Barber.

J Michael, you seriously couldn't get stylist out of stilist?  You seemed to understand that aquiantance, stood for acquaintance without any problem.


Are you sure?  What does the fact that this acquaintance is a barber have to do with anything and what gravity do the opinions of a hairdresser have about the history of Vlad Tepes?

Precisely.

I guess that unless and until Azul graces us once more with his presence on this thread and deigns to enlighten us about the word "stilist" and what he meant, we'll just have to fumble along in the dark, making speculation after speculation about it.  Or we could, as I've chosen to do, just stop caring about it.   Wink
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« Reply #58 on: June 26, 2012, 12:38:26 PM »

Stilist is a typo for stylist.  The person who does someone's hair.  Barber.

J Michael, you seriously couldn't get stylist out of stilist?  You seemed to understand that aquiantance, stood for acquaintance without any problem.


Are you sure?  What does the fact that this acquaintance is a barber have to do with anything and what gravity do the opinions of a hairdresser have about the history of Vlad Tepes?

Precisely.

I guess that unless and until Azul graces us once more with his presence on this thread and deigns to enlighten us about the word "stilist" and what he meant, we'll just have to fumble along in the dark, making speculation after speculation about it.  Or we could, as I've chosen to do, just stop caring about it.   Wink

Probably the best course for most threads on OC.net these days. Wink
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« Reply #59 on: June 26, 2012, 12:46:49 PM »

Stilist is a typo for stylist.  The person who does someone's hair.  Barber.

J Michael, you seriously couldn't get stylist out of stilist?  You seemed to understand that aquiantance, stood for acquaintance without any problem.


Are you sure?  What does the fact that this acquaintance is a barber have to do with anything and what gravity do the opinions of a hairdresser have about the history of Vlad Tepes?

Precisely.

I guess that unless and until Azul graces us once more with his presence on this thread and deigns to enlighten us about the word "stilist" and what he meant, we'll just have to fumble along in the dark, making speculation after speculation about it.  Or we could, as I've chosen to do, just stop caring about it.   Wink

Probably the best course for most threads on OC.net these days. Wink

Yup.
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« Reply #60 on: June 26, 2012, 03:21:21 PM »

stilist = Old Calendaristic.. from Ortodox de stil de vechi... and stilist also means hair stilist...
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« Reply #61 on: June 26, 2012, 03:23:10 PM »

stilist = Old Calendaristic.. from Ortodox de stil de vechi... and stilist also means hair stilist...

Interesting.  So that makes Fr. A a master barber? Wink

tee hee, just kidding. 
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« Reply #62 on: June 26, 2012, 03:25:34 PM »

stilist = Old Calendaristic.. from Ortodox de stil de vechi... and stilist also means hair stilist...

Interesting.  So that makes Fr. A a master barber? Wink

tee hee, just kidding. 

ROTFL!


(Can you tell I'm bored?  Grin)
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« Reply #63 on: June 26, 2012, 03:26:40 PM »

stilist = Old Calendaristic.. from Ortodox de stil de vechi... and stilist also means hair stilist...

I thought we'd never find out!

Thank you!
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« Reply #64 on: June 26, 2012, 03:28:10 PM »

stilist = Old Calendaristic.. from Ortodox de stil de vechi... and stilist also means hair stilist...

Interesting.  So that makes Fr. A a master barber? Wink

tee hee, just kidding. 

only if you don`t know the way the word is used. Smiley

stop divinizing priests and bishops, they are here to divinize us, they are our servant , servant to the laity that is their scope... if they don`t act like it rebuke them.
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« Reply #65 on: June 26, 2012, 04:35:52 PM »

They are believed to steal the cows' milk, these "strigoi". That's what they do. Never heard of them sucking blood.
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« Reply #66 on: June 26, 2012, 04:44:28 PM »

They are believed to steal the cows' milk, these "strigoi". That's what they do. Never heard of them sucking blood.

Tell that to Geralt.
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« Reply #67 on: June 26, 2012, 04:57:19 PM »

Technically aren't we vampires whenever we receive the Holy Eucharist?  Huh
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« Reply #68 on: June 27, 2012, 03:47:44 AM »

They are believed to steal the cows' milk, these "strigoi". That's what they do. Never heard of them sucking blood.

Strigoi are also supposed to drain the life from others which is why I said they are sort of like vampires, but no they don't drink blood. It's more of a spiritual thing. And, in fact, there are other differences like the fact that the dead type of strigoi are actually more like spirits than the physical undead and that they aren't the only type. Some are live and are effectively evil sorcerers/witches. Nonetheless they are about as close to vampires as anything else I've come across in Romanian folklore - that is to say there can be a passing resemblance. Actual vampire legends, however, are more Slav than anything else.

James
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« Reply #69 on: June 27, 2012, 03:48:23 AM »

Technically aren't we vampires whenever we receive the Holy Eucharist?  Huh

No. In exactly the same way as we aren't cannibals.

James
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« Reply #70 on: June 27, 2012, 09:27:45 AM »

Technically aren't we vampires whenever we receive the Holy Eucharist?  Huh

Is that a serious question?
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« Reply #71 on: June 27, 2012, 10:18:00 AM »

They are believed to steal the cows' milk, these "strigoi". That's what they do. Never heard of them sucking blood.

Strigoi are also supposed to drain the life from others which is why I said they are sort of like vampires, but no they don't drink blood. It's more of a spiritual thing. And, in fact, there are other differences like the fact that the dead type of strigoi are actually more like spirits than the physical undead and that they aren't the only type. Some are live and are effectively evil sorcerers/witches. Nonetheless they are about as close to vampires as anything else I've come across in Romanian folklore - that is to say there can be a passing resemblance. Actual vampire legends, however, are more Slav than anything else.

James
Older people (and some younger ones) tended to believe in "bosorci" as they called those creatures in my region. They could even point to specific people  that of course,, everybody knew were "bosorci". A "bosorca/bisorca" is, I'd say more like a werewolf: a man or a woman able to turn into an animal, usually a very large cat or dog. Another belief concerned the so-called "vilva", especially "vilva lupilor", a man that, due to the unusual/magic circumstances of his birth was able to control the wolves, talk to them, direct them. But these people were relatively ostracized. IIRC correctly a German (?) made a documentary in the late nineties about such a a man (vilva lupilor) still living on the upper course of Crisul Alb river, in the "Apuseni" mountains which is roughly my region too.
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« Reply #72 on: June 27, 2012, 10:35:37 AM »

They are believed to steal the cows' milk, these "strigoi". That's what they do. Never heard of them sucking blood.

Strigoi are also supposed to drain the life from others which is why I said they are sort of like vampires, but no they don't drink blood. It's more of a spiritual thing. And, in fact, there are other differences like the fact that the dead type of strigoi are actually more like spirits than the physical undead and that they aren't the only type. Some are live and are effectively evil sorcerers/witches. Nonetheless they are about as close to vampires as anything else I've come across in Romanian folklore - that is to say there can be a passing resemblance. Actual vampire legends, however, are more Slav than anything else.

James
Older people (and some younger ones) tended to believe in "bosorci" as they called those creatures in my region. They could even point to specific people  that of course,, everybody knew were "bosorci". A "bosorca/bisorca" is, I'd say more like a werewolf: a man or a woman able to turn into an animal, usually a very large cat or dog. Another belief concerned the so-called "vilva", especially "vilva lupilor", a man that, due to the unusual/magic circumstances of his birth was able to control the wolves, talk to them, direct them. But these people were relatively ostracized. IIRC correctly a German (?) made a documentary in the late nineties about such a a man (vilva lupilor) still living on the upper course of Crisul Alb river, in the "Apuseni" mountains which is roughly my region too.

I don't know of 'bosorci' but I do know that the names (and some of the details) vary from place to place. My wife's ancestral village is in Bucovina, a few km south of Siret. That's the area I am by far the most familiar with (up to and including the area around the painted monasteries). Is 'vilva' equivalent to 'vâlvă'?  It sounds like it must be but my understanding of the 'vâlve' is nothing like you describe - they seem to be similar to the 'iele' rather than being people and they are always female (as the grammar would suggest they should be).

James
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« Reply #73 on: June 27, 2012, 10:42:39 AM »

They are believed to steal the cows' milk, these "strigoi". That's what they do. Never heard of them sucking blood.

Strigoi are also supposed to drain the life from others which is why I said they are sort of like vampires, but no they don't drink blood. It's more of a spiritual thing. And, in fact, there are other differences like the fact that the dead type of strigoi are actually more like spirits than the physical undead and that they aren't the only type. Some are live and are effectively evil sorcerers/witches. Nonetheless they are about as close to vampires as anything else I've come across in Romanian folklore - that is to say there can be a passing resemblance. Actual vampire legends, however, are more Slav than anything else.

James
Older people (and some younger ones) tended to believe in "bosorci" as they called those creatures in my region. They could even point to specific people  that of course,, everybody knew were "bosorci". A "bosorca/bisorca" is, I'd say more like a werewolf: a man or a woman able to turn into an animal, usually a very large cat or dog. Another belief concerned the so-called "vilva", especially "vilva lupilor", a man that, due to the unusual/magic circumstances of his birth was able to control the wolves, talk to them, direct them. But these people were relatively ostracized. IIRC correctly a German (?) made a documentary in the late nineties about such a a man (vilva lupilor) still living on the upper course of Crisul Alb river, in the "Apuseni" mountains which is roughly my region too.

I don't know of 'bosorci' but I do know that the names (and some of the details) vary from place to place. My wife's ancestral village is in Bucovina, a few km south of Siret. That's the area I am by far the most familiar with (up to and including the area around the painted monasteries). Is 'vilva' equivalent to 'vâlvă'?  It sounds like it must be but my understanding of the 'vâlve' is nothing like you describe - they seem to be similar to the 'iele' rather than being people and they are always female (as the grammar would suggest they should be).

James
I don't know about Moldova/Bucovina, but I'm sure what I'm saying is accurate for Western Carpathians (Western Transylvania) at least.
http://www.formula-as.ro/2010/928/societate-37/valva-lupilor-12695
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« Reply #74 on: June 27, 2012, 03:23:10 PM »

They are believed to steal the cows' milk, these "strigoi". That's what they do. Never heard of them sucking blood.

Strigoi are also supposed to drain the life from others which is why I said they are sort of like vampires, but no they don't drink blood. It's more of a spiritual thing. And, in fact, there are other differences like the fact that the dead type of strigoi are actually more like spirits than the physical undead and that they aren't the only type. Some are live and are effectively evil sorcerers/witches. Nonetheless they are about as close to vampires as anything else I've come across in Romanian folklore - that is to say there can be a passing resemblance. Actual vampire legends, however, are more Slav than anything else.

James
Older people (and some younger ones) tended to believe in "bosorci" as they called those creatures in my region. They could even point to specific people  that of course,, everybody knew were "bosorci". A "bosorca/bisorca" is, I'd say more like a werewolf: a man or a woman able to turn into an animal, usually a very large cat or dog. Another belief concerned the so-called "vilva", especially "vilva lupilor", a man that, due to the unusual/magic circumstances of his birth was able to control the wolves, talk to them, direct them. But these people were relatively ostracized. IIRC correctly a German (?) made a documentary in the late nineties about such a a man (vilva lupilor) still living on the upper course of Crisul Alb river, in the "Apuseni" mountains which is roughly my region too.

I saw a show about 'moroi' ... those are similar to vampires.. they say they haunt you down and attack your sanity.. there were some villigers (i forgot the name of the village) that seen this types of 'moroi' that can be one of your passed relatives.. they say that they usually come to kill you and take the life out of you... the story goes that in order to escape them and their curse you need the go at their tombs and 12 am take their heart, "macinate" it and drink it.. I heard similar stuff about the vampires that you need to go at 12 AM at their tombs and put a spike into their hearts or something in order to escape their haunting.. i used to hear kiddy stories when i was a child about this, but you know kids Smiley... P.S I grew up in the city Smiley
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« Reply #75 on: June 27, 2012, 03:53:55 PM »

They are believed to steal the cows' milk, these "strigoi". That's what they do. Never heard of them sucking blood.

Strigoi are also supposed to drain the life from others which is why I said they are sort of like vampires, but no they don't drink blood. It's more of a spiritual thing. And, in fact, there are other differences like the fact that the dead type of strigoi are actually more like spirits than the physical undead and that they aren't the only type. Some are live and are effectively evil sorcerers/witches. Nonetheless they are about as close to vampires as anything else I've come across in Romanian folklore - that is to say there can be a passing resemblance. Actual vampire legends, however, are more Slav than anything else.

James
Older people (and some younger ones) tended to believe in "bosorci" as they called those creatures in my region. They could even point to specific people  that of course,, everybody knew were "bosorci". A "bosorca/bisorca" is, I'd say more like a werewolf: a man or a woman able to turn into an animal, usually a very large cat or dog. Another belief concerned the so-called "vilva", especially "vilva lupilor", a man that, due to the unusual/magic circumstances of his birth was able to control the wolves, talk to them, direct them. But these people were relatively ostracized. IIRC correctly a German (?) made a documentary in the late nineties about such a a man (vilva lupilor) still living on the upper course of Crisul Alb river, in the "Apuseni" mountains which is roughly my region too.

I saw a show about 'moroi' ... those are similar to vampires.. they say they haunt you down and attack your sanity.. there were some villigers (i forgot the name of the village) that seen this types of 'moroi' that can be one of your passed relatives.. they say that they usually come to kill you and take the life out of you... the story goes that in order to escape them and their curse you need the go at their tombs and 12 am take their heart, "macinate" it and drink it.. I heard similar stuff about the vampires that you need to go at 12 AM at their tombs and put a spike into their hearts or something in order to escape their haunting.. i used to hear kiddy stories when i was a child about this, but you know kids Smiley... P.S I grew up in the city Smiley

I always thought that the creatures that hunt you down and attack your sanity were called...."in-laws"  laugh laugh laugh.

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