Author Topic: Pope of Rome Questions: Christ/God on earth, representative of Christ, etc?  (Read 13789 times)

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Offline montalban

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Re: Pope of Rome Questions: Christ/God on earth, representative of Christ, etc?
« Reply #45 on: December 28, 2007, 08:00:23 AM »
But don't we share in the attributes of God... like immortality? These aren't 'our' attributes they are the attributes given us by our participation 'with' and 'in' God Himself, right?
Maybe you think we become fully God? I thought we just share in his energies, not his person, and thus we will never be God!
Sorry Brother, I didn't know.
How could you?
Is it not true that what Christ has by nature we have through adoption? God's energies are 'really' God ontologically speaking right? God in Action so to speak?
Well there is a separation in a sense so as to account for how God could be a Creator without his creation being as old as he, and still not have him change. You'd have to read about the errors of Origen on this. Origen concluded that if God never changes, then he couldn't have moved from being one who potentially creates to one who actually created the universe (I believe it was Origen).

But maybe you feel we become part of his essence? This is the first I've ever heard of that theory of yours; because God in his essence is unknowable. But perhaps you believe we'll become as infinite and as powerful as God? ???
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Offline montalban

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Re: Pope of Rome Questions: Christ/God on earth, representative of Christ, etc?
« Reply #46 on: December 30, 2007, 06:08:34 AM »
Hello,

And is not the Coptic Pope of Alexandria given the title of "Judge of the Universe" or something to that effect? I would venture the guess that these are (now archaic) forms of addressing persons of high stature in both royal courts and the Church - and not any sort of claim of divinity in the sense of being God (at least not in the Church, though some historical civil rulers were egotistical enough to make that claim)

So someone latter gives the Pope an illustrious title, therefore it's true?

There were several sees that were Sees of Peter.
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Offline Athanasios

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Re: Pope of Rome Questions: Christ/God on earth, representative of Christ, etc?
« Reply #47 on: December 30, 2007, 05:53:54 PM »
Hello,

So someone latter gives the Pope an illustrious title, therefore it's true?

There were several sees that were Sees of Peter.

There would be a difference between titles such as Vicar of Christ and Servant of the Servants of God and titles such as Lord God the Pope (I've never actually seen this one used as an authentic title of the Pope) or His All-Magnificent Lordship (I just made that one up).

The former are descriptions of the Pope's ministry and the latter are grandiose titles of respect given to those of high rank in society (check out some of the titles given to members of the nobility).
Through the intercession of Our Lady of Mount Carmel, may Jesus Christ bless you abundantly.

Pray that we may be one, as Christ and His Father are one. (John 17:20ff)

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Offline JoeS

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Re: Pope of Rome Questions: Christ/God on earth, representative of Christ, etc?
« Reply #48 on: December 30, 2007, 10:08:23 PM »
Hello,

There would be a difference between titles such as Vicar of Christ and Servant of the Servants of God and titles such as Lord God the Pope (I've never actually seen this one used as an authentic title of the Pope) or His All-Magnificent Lordship (I just made that one up).

The former are descriptions of the Pope's ministry and the latter are grandiose titles of respect given to those of high rank in society (check out some of the titles given to members of the nobility).

I believe the original quote "Lord God the pope" was a self administered title by the Pope himself (not believed by the faithful or cardinals )but Im not sure as to which Pope it was. Im not saying that this particular Pope had all his marbles but I did see the Papal quote some time ago and it was attributed to this Pope.

I knew I should have save that article.


Offline Athanasios

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Re: Pope of Rome Questions: Christ/God on earth, representative of Christ, etc?
« Reply #49 on: December 31, 2007, 12:00:42 AM »
Hello,

I believe the original quote "Lord God the pope" was a self administered title by the Pope himself (not believed by the faithful or cardinals )but Im not sure as to which Pope it was. Im not saying that this particular Pope had all his marbles but I did see the Papal quote some time ago and it was attributed to this Pope.

I knew I should have save that article.



Isn't that always the case. I feel for you! I'm always kicking myself when I can't remember where that article I saw three months ago that is perfect for the current topic at hand is on the internet.  :P
Through the intercession of Our Lady of Mount Carmel, may Jesus Christ bless you abundantly.

Pray that we may be one, as Christ and His Father are one. (John 17:20ff)

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Offline montalban

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Re: Pope of Rome Questions: Christ/God on earth, representative of Christ, etc?
« Reply #50 on: December 31, 2007, 12:10:55 AM »
Hello,

There would be a difference between titles such as Vicar of Christ and Servant of the Servants of God and titles such as Lord God the Pope (I've never actually seen this one used as an authentic title of the Pope) or His All-Magnificent Lordship (I just made that one up).

The former are descriptions of the Pope's ministry and the latter are grandiose titles of respect given to those of high rank in society (check out some of the titles given to members of the nobility).

It still doesn't take away from the fact that you seem to believe when someone's given the Pope an illustrious title, that one can retrospectively apply it to his office.

Ignatius of Antioch said that there was only three church positions; deacons, priests, and bishops and beyond these there was no church. Your pope is a 'bishop of bishops' a position unknown to Ignatius


Also, I hope you have time to address my post re: John Chyrsostomon where I showed that he lived most of his life outside of communion with Rome.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,12957.msg198855.html#msg198855

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Offline Athanasios

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Re: Pope of Rome Questions: Christ/God on earth, representative of Christ, etc?
« Reply #51 on: December 31, 2007, 12:26:06 AM »
Hello,

It still doesn't take away from the fact that you seem to believe when someone's given the Pope an illustrious title, that one can retrospectively apply it to his office.

Ignatius of Antioch said that there was only three church positions; deacons, priests, and bishops and beyond these there was no church. Your pope is a 'bishop of bishops' a position unknown to Ignatius

I don't see the Pope's official titles as being merely honorific pomp and circumstance. Also, wouldn't your argument also say that the Orthodox are in fault for having Metropolitans and Patriarchs?


Also, I hope you have time to address my post re: John Chyrsostomon where I showed that he lived most of his life outside of communion with Rome.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,12957.msg198855.html#msg198855
I thought I did here: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,12957.msg199128.html#msg199128

As I am sure you are aware of, the Catholic Church subscribes to the Augustinian view of succession and sacraments and not the Cyprianic view. Saint John was certainly viewed as the true Patriarch of Constantinople and in communion with Rome - which Rome defended when Saint John was deposed.
Through the intercession of Our Lady of Mount Carmel, may Jesus Christ bless you abundantly.

Pray that we may be one, as Christ and His Father are one. (John 17:20ff)

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Offline Athanasios

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Re: Pope of Rome Questions: Christ/God on earth, representative of Christ, etc?
« Reply #52 on: December 31, 2007, 01:35:52 AM »
Hello,

Also, I hope you have time to address my post re: John Chyrsostomon where I showed that he lived most of his life outside of communion with Rome.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,12957.msg198855.html#msg198855
I thought I did here: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,12957.msg199128.html#msg199128

I just realized that these are on a different thread! I guess I need some sleep.  :D
Through the intercession of Our Lady of Mount Carmel, may Jesus Christ bless you abundantly.

Pray that we may be one, as Christ and His Father are one. (John 17:20ff)

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Offline montalban

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Re: Pope of Rome Questions: Christ/God on earth, representative of Christ, etc?
« Reply #53 on: December 31, 2007, 04:45:19 AM »
Hello,

I don't see the Pope's official titles as being merely honorific pomp and circumstance. Also, wouldn't your argument also say that the Orthodox are in fault for having Metropolitans and Patriarchs?
Except a Patriarch is not an Orthodox pope.
I thought I did here: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,12957.msg199128.html#msg199128
That's not a well reasoned response "I haven't seen anything..."

I presented you with evidence. Inclduding from Davis, a Catholic historian.
As I am sure you are aware of, the Catholic Church subscribes to the Augustinian view of succession and sacraments and not the Cyprianic view. Saint John was certainly viewed as the true Patriarch of Constantinople and in communion with Rome - which Rome defended when Saint John was deposed.
That's simply to miss the point that he accepted ordinations, going through the 'ranks' at the hands of people not in communion with Rome.
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Offline montalban

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Re: Pope of Rome Questions: Christ/God on earth, representative of Christ, etc?
« Reply #54 on: December 31, 2007, 04:53:15 AM »
Hello,

I just realized that these are on a different thread! I guess I need some sleep.  :D

And hopefully you will there address the evidence.

"I haven't seen anything..." doesn't cut it!  ;)
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Offline stashko

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Actually wasn't it posted on this forum some where and on caf..the a few popes did declared them selfs God on earth there was documentation that proved it.......and if any body rejected it they were damed.....doesn't that mean pagan god I believe Fr Ambrose mentioned it and some other's .......SmileyCentral.com" border="0
« Last Edit: June 17, 2008, 10:29:15 PM by Friul »
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