Author Topic: Pope of Rome Questions: Christ/God on earth, representative of Christ, etc?  (Read 13981 times)

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Offline JoeS

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This thread was split from "Nature of Schism (Valid Sacraments, Fullness, etc)":
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13960.45.html

-- Friul



Would you be willing to expand on what you think is the big dividing point, keeping in mind, that even in the Orthodox Church, there exists a Western rite.

The Pope is not only the representative of Jesus Christ, he is Jesus Christ himself, hidden under the veil of flesh." Catholic National July 1895.

"We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty" ...Pope Leo XIII Encyclical Letter of June 20, 1894,

"For thou art the shepherd, thou art the physician, thou art the director, thou art the husbandman, finally thou art another God on earth." Labbe and Cossart's "History of the Councils." Vol. XIV, col. 109

The title "Lord God the Pope" is found within a gloss of Extravagantes of Pope John XXII, title 14, chapter 4
In an Antwerp edition of the Extravagantes, the words, "Dominum Deum Nostrum Papam" (Our Lord God the Pope) can be found in column 153. In a Paris edition, they are found in column 140.
The Bull Unam Sanctam... Issued by POPE BONIFACE VIII reads as follows: "The Roman Pontiff judges all men, but is judged by no one. We declare, assert, define and pronounce: to be subject to the Roman Pontiff is to every human creature necessary for salvation that which was spoken of Christ 'thou has subdued all things under his feet' may well seem verified in me... I have the authority of the King of Kings. I am all in all and above all, so that God himself and I, the vicar of God, have but one consistory, and I am able to do all that God can do."
"The Saviour Himself is the door of the sheepfold: 'I am the door of the sheep.' Into this fold of Jesus Christ, no man may enter unless he be led by the Sovereign Pontiff; and only if they be united to him can men be saved, for the Roman Pontiff is the Vicar of Christ and His personal representative on earth." (Pope John XXIII in his homily to the Bishops and faithful assisting at his coronation on November 4, 1958).   
« Last Edit: December 22, 2007, 02:10:50 AM by Friul »

Offline Entscheidungsproblem

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The Pope is not only the representative of Jesus Christ, he is Jesus Christ himself, hidden under the veil of flesh." Catholic National July 1895.

"We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty" ...Pope Leo XIII Encyclical Letter of June 20, 1894,

"For thou art the shepherd, thou art the physician, thou art the director, thou art the husbandman, finally thou art another God on earth." Labbe and Cossart's "History of the Councils." Vol. XIV, col. 109

The title "Lord God the Pope" is found within a gloss of Extravagantes of Pope John XXII, title 14, chapter 4
In an Antwerp edition of the Extravagantes, the words, "Dominum Deum Nostrum Papam" (Our Lord God the Pope) can be found in column 153. In a Paris edition, they are found in column 140.
The Bull Unam Sanctam... Issued by POPE BONIFACE VIII reads as follows: "The Roman Pontiff judges all men, but is judged by no one. We declare, assert, define and pronounce: to be subject to the Roman Pontiff is to every human creature necessary for salvation that which was spoken of Christ 'thou has subdued all things under his feet' may well seem verified in me... I have the authority of the King of Kings. I am all in all and above all, so that God himself and I, the vicar of God, have but one consistory, and I am able to do all that God can do."
"The Saviour Himself is the door of the sheepfold: 'I am the door of the sheep.' Into this fold of Jesus Christ, no man may enter unless he be led by the Sovereign Pontiff; and only if they be united to him can men be saved, for the Roman Pontiff is the Vicar of Christ and His personal representative on earth." (Pope John XXIII in his homily to the Bishops and faithful assisting at his coronation on November 4, 1958).   

I just want to state, please cite the sources through which you are finding these quotations.  They sound like ones I would often read on anti-Catholic and anti-Apostolic websites.

For example, the Unam Sanctam bull by Pope Boniface VIII.  The original was lost, but a version of the text can be found in the Vatican Archieves.  No where does it say what you quoted.  If you wish, you can find a copy of it here:  http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Bon08/B8unam.htm  There are many other sources that have an identical document.

No offence, but if they are willing to distort a document that can be quite easily found, it sheds serious doubt over their other "proofs".  Unless they somehow came across the original, which differs VERY greatly from Boniface VIII's archived documents, which I think is unlikely.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2007, 07:46:52 PM by Friul »
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Offline JoeS

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I just want to state, please cite the sources through which you are finding these quotations.  They sound like ones I would often read on anti-Catholic and anti-Apostolic websites.

For example, the Unam Sanctam bull by Pope Boniface VIII.  The original was lost, but a version of the text can be found in the Vatican Archieves.  No where does it say what you quoted.  If you wish, you can find a copy of it here:  http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Bon08/B8unam.htm  There are many other sources that have an identical document.

These were found on an Orthodox website some years back and I had asked many many times for any refutation of these documented statements from Roman Catholics.  And all I ever received from them is that I was sourcing a Protestant source. Well, that to me is not an answer.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2007, 07:49:53 PM by JoeS »

Offline Entscheidungsproblem

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These were found on an Orthodox website some years back and I had asked many many times for any refutation of these documented statements from Roman Catholics.  And all I ever received from them is that I was sourcing a Protestant source. Well, that to me is not an answer.


I can understand to a degree.  A lot of Roman Catholics are just endlessly bombarded with the same quotations and usually a whore of babylon reference or two from Protestants and they just lose it.  I know if I am ever forwarded to the site "jesus-is-savior" one more time, I would go insane.  LoL :laugh:

I'll look into the others, but all I can find is them on sites such as AntiChristPope and others.  Which, well, I doubt their context and legitimacy at times.   :P
« Last Edit: December 20, 2007, 07:56:45 PM by Friul »
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Offline lubeltri

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These were found on an Orthodox website some years back and I had asked many many times for any refutation of these documented statements from Roman Catholics.  And all I ever received from them is that I was sourcing a Protestant source. Well, that to me is not an answer.


And wholesale copying and pasting of (possibly inaccurate) quotes denuded of their context and from a polemical website is, to me, not a question.

Offline stanley123

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The Pope is not only the representative of Jesus Christ, he is Jesus Christ himself, hidden under the veil of flesh." Catholic National July 1895.

"We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty" ...Pope Leo XIII Encyclical Letter of June 20, 1894,

"For thou art the shepherd, thou art the physician, thou art the director, thou art the husbandman, finally thou art another God on earth." Labbe and Cossart's "History of the Councils." Vol. XIV, col. 109

The title "Lord God the Pope" is found within a gloss of Extravagantes of Pope John XXII, title 14, chapter 4
In an Antwerp edition of the Extravagantes, the words, "Dominum Deum Nostrum Papam" (Our Lord God the Pope) can be found in column 153. In a Paris edition, they are found in column 140.
The Bull Unam Sanctam... Issued by POPE BONIFACE VIII reads as follows: "The Roman Pontiff judges all men, but is judged by no one. We declare, assert, define and pronounce: to be subject to the Roman Pontiff is to every human creature necessary for salvation that which was spoken of Christ 'thou has subdued all things under his feet' may well seem verified in me... I have the authority of the King of Kings. I am all in all and above all, so that God himself and I, the vicar of God, have but one consistory, and I am able to do all that God can do."
"The Saviour Himself is the door of the sheepfold: 'I am the door of the sheep.' Into this fold of Jesus Christ, no man may enter unless he be led by the Sovereign Pontiff; and only if they be united to him can men be saved, for the Roman Pontiff is the Vicar of Christ and His personal representative on earth." (Pope John XXIII in his homily to the Bishops and faithful assisting at his coronation on November 4, 1958).   
It is possible that these things have been written down somewhere, but I don't know of any Catholic who thinks that the Pope is "Lord God the Pope." Certainly, he holds a place of honor in the Church, as Catholics believe he is the successor of St. Peter. But some of the other titles appear to be blown out of proportion to a certain extent.

Offline Ian Lazarus

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There is another who descends from St. Peter.  That is the Patriarch of Antioch, currently His Beatitude Ignatius IV.  If both descend from the lineage of St. Peter, why isn't equity in honor placed to Antioch?     
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There is another who descends from St. Peter.  That is the Patriarch of Antioch, currently His Beatitude Ignatius IV.  If both descend from the lineage of St. Peter, why isn't equity in honor placed to Antioch?     
My guess is that it depended on how the historical situation developed.

Offline Entscheidungsproblem

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There is another who descends from St. Peter.  That is the Patriarch of Antioch, currently His Beatitude Ignatius IV.  If both descend from the lineage of St. Peter, why isn't equity in honor placed to Antioch?     

You must remember, the RCC sees St. Peter as establishing the Church of Antioch but views St. Evodius as the first Bishop of Antioch.  St. Peter then journeyed to Rome and was Bishop of Rome for (traditionally) 25 years, until his martyrdom.  The linage is the bishopric that St. Peter, himself, is said to have served in.  And of course, you have to take into account politics at the time, St. Peter established the Church in the centre of the known world.
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Offline lubeltri

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It is possible that these things have been written down somewhere, but I don't know of any Catholic who thinks that the Pope is "Lord God the Pope."

Of course, every priest, including the Pope, acts in persona Christi, representing Christ. And, of course, we have Jesus's admonition to see Christ in our brothers and sisters, even in the lowest among us.

Definitely not a title I would use, though. Too much confusion.

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Re: Pope of Rome Questions: Christ/God on earth, representative of Christ, etc?
« Reply #10 on: December 21, 2007, 04:31:35 PM »
Of course, every priest, including the Pope, acts in persona Christi, representing Christ. And, of course, we have Jesus's admonition to see Christ in our brothers and sisters, even in the lowest among us.

Wow.  That is the weakest and most absurd argument for the papacy I've heard.
Hey, I don't hand out 9.5s to just anyone!  ;D

Offline lubeltri

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Re: Pope of Rome Questions: Christ/God on earth, representative of Christ, etc?
« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2007, 05:19:22 PM »
Wow.  That is the weakest and most absurd argument for the papacy I've heard.

It wasn't anything of the sort. Please read my words in their context.

Offline Amdetsion

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Re: Pope of Rome Questions: Christ/God on earth, representative of Christ, etc?
« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2007, 05:20:40 PM »
I believe it is correct to refer to the popes of all the churches in an esteemed manner.

The Lord says that this is good.

The pope of Rome today is still living the traditional 'old Roman' emperial legacy. Rome (the empire) dominated the whole so-called "known world" at the time the "papacey" was in place. At that time the RCC did rule albiet via emperial Rome and not so much ecclesiastically. When the empire fell the world shrank for the RCC.  And what the RCC really was all along became clear absent the empire. It did not help much that the fall of emperial Rome also lead to the split between east and western Europe. That removed the cloak even more.

Rome is a church like all others.

Seems that the RCC was in a real idenity crisis at that time for sure. Without the emperial Empire providing the enroad to its long presence as THE church.

The mindset of the Roman fathers grew to find themsleves (albeit in their own minds) the true head of the global church on earth empire or not. They pushed this to close the gap of who they were, who they are and what they were becoming.....The remnant of the old Roman empire.

These are my own views based on the facts of history.

The "pontiffs" even talk down to all other men on earth as if being God himself with that same "ceasarian" mentallity common to the the head of a Roman empire. These pontifs do not show meekness, humility, poverty and love like our Lord. But want us to some how believe that they are Him.

Maybe they are...

But our Lord told us that when another man says "I am here or I am there do not believe them". The Lord warned us that many men would seek to gain His honor; but we are to be prepared to NOT follow such persons.

The Lord presented Himself the chief servant washing the feet of the sinful with his holy and spotless hands.

Show me a man with the humility of our Lord and I would see this all very differently.

But we all know that no man on earth can show this kind of love.

That's why we are waiting for the second advent of Christ our Lord.

The pontifs of the RCC are very power and 'respect' oriented. Beleiving that they are rightiously endowd to exist above all men. This is the best sign for me that they are not who they say they are.

Christ the Lord does not need any man to be His assistant. Even St Peter and all the apostles, saints and martyrs together can not be all together equal to God.

Only Christ is equal to God....Christ IS God....Amen.

The pontifs of Rome and all the popes and patriarchs are men......men. Men that are awaiting to be judged by the creator Jesus Christ.

God bless us all.
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Re: Pope of Rome Questions: Christ/God on earth, representative of Christ, etc?
« Reply #13 on: December 21, 2007, 07:04:29 PM »
It wasn't anything of the sort. Please read my words in their context.

OK, fair enough.  So let me rephrase.  That is the weakest and most absurd argument for justifying that the pope is "God on earth".  ANd if the phrase "God on earth" is used to not justify the pope's supposed universal primacy and authority, then why is it used at all?  I think the Pope's other earthly titles would be sufficient.
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Re: Pope of Rome Questions: Christ/God on earth, representative of Christ, etc?
« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2007, 10:01:05 PM »
OK, fair enough.  So let me rephrase.  That is the weakest and most absurd argument for justifying that the pope is "God on earth".

Really, scamandrius, this doesn't seem like you at all.

I mean, when did lubeltri try to justify that the pope is "God on earth"? Nowhere that I can see -- except insofar as that phrase can be used of all priests or of everyone.

ANd if the phrase "God on earth" is used to not justify the pope's supposed universal primacy and authority, then why is it used at all?  I think the Pope's other earthly titles would be sufficient.

This is just what I've been complaining about with Fr. Ambrose, Navigator, and others: just because some pope made an absurd statement like "the pope is God on earth", why do you automatically assume that I, Lubeltri, Papist, etc., all believe that as well?

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Re: Pope of Rome Questions: Christ/God on earth, representative of Christ, etc?
« Reply #15 on: December 21, 2007, 11:07:58 PM »
NM.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2007, 11:21:07 PM by welkodox »

Offline lubeltri

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Re: Pope of Rome Questions: Christ/God on earth, representative of Christ, etc?
« Reply #16 on: December 21, 2007, 11:21:30 PM »
OK, fair enough.  So let me rephrase.  That is the weakest and most absurd argument for justifying that the pope is "God on earth".  ANd if the phrase "God on earth" is used to not justify the pope's supposed universal primacy and authority, then why is it used at all?  I think the Pope's other earthly titles would be sufficient.

Well, it isn't used. I had never heard of it before until it appeared on this thread.

I also wasn't justifying it. If you look at my post, I wrote that it was a bad idea. What I was trying to get at was if you looked at it a certain way, it isn't as controversial as it looks. I mean, a beggar on the street is "God on Earth" (Christ) according to Jesus. At least, that is how we are to regard even the lowest among us.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2007, 11:22:51 PM by lubeltri »

Offline lubeltri

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Re: Pope of Rome Questions: Christ/God on earth, representative of Christ, etc?
« Reply #17 on: December 21, 2007, 11:25:18 PM »
This is just what I've been complaining about with Fr. Ambrose, Navigator, and others: just because some pope made an absurd statement like "the pope is God on earth", why do you automatically assume that I, Lubeltri, Papist, etc., all believe that as well?

I agree. I sometimes get the impression that some non-Catholics think we worship the Pope as some kind of demigod whose every word we must believe on pain of mortal sin.  :)
« Last Edit: December 21, 2007, 11:27:44 PM by lubeltri »

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Re: Pope of Rome Questions: Christ/God on earth, representative of Christ, etc?
« Reply #18 on: December 21, 2007, 11:41:58 PM »
Hello,

The Pope did not say he was God on earth. That is an anti-Catholic (think Jack Chick and Lorraine Boettner) twisting of what Pope Leo XIII wrote in the encyclical Praeclara Gratulationis Publicae. He actually wrote:

But since We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty, Who will have all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the Truth, and now that Our advanced age and the bitterness of anxious cares urge Us on towards the end common to every mortal, We feel drawn to follow the example of Our Redeemer and Master, Jesus Christ, Who, when about to return to Heaven, implored of God, His Father, in earnest Prayer, that His Disciples and followers should be of one mind and of one heart: I pray . . . that they all may be one, as Thou Father in Me, and I in Thee: that they also may be one in Us.


He says the Pope holds the place of God on earth in the sense of his official title Vicar of Christ.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2007, 11:43:13 PM by Athanasios »
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Offline stanley123

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Re: Pope of Rome Questions: Christ/God on earth, representative of Christ, etc?
« Reply #19 on: December 22, 2007, 12:10:26 AM »
Hello,

The Pope did not say he was God on earth. That is an anti-Catholic (think Jack Chick and Lorraine Boettner) twisting of what Pope Leo XIII wrote in the encyclical Praeclara Gratulationis Publicae. He actually wrote:

But since We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty, Who will have all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the Truth, and now that Our advanced age and the bitterness of anxious cares urge Us on towards the end common to every mortal, We feel drawn to follow the example of Our Redeemer and Master, Jesus Christ, Who, when about to return to Heaven, implored of God, His Father, in earnest Prayer, that His Disciples and followers should be of one mind and of one heart: I pray . . . that they all may be one, as Thou Father in Me, and I in Thee: that they also may be one in Us.


He says the Pope holds the place of God on earth in the sense of his official title Vicar of Christ.
The statement is a bit strong.

Offline Entscheidungsproblem

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Re: Pope of Rome Questions: Christ/God on earth, representative of Christ, etc?
« Reply #20 on: December 22, 2007, 12:27:47 AM »
The statement is a bit strong.

The encyclical letter Praeclara Gratulationis Publicae calls for the reunion of the Eastern and Western Churches.  The 'We' he is referring to is the RCC and Catholics world-wide, not the Pope himself.  In the sentence before that paragraph, he writes:

"This thought has been, and is, a source of deep concern to Us; for it is impossible to think of such a large portion of mankind deviating, as it were, from the right path, as they move away from Us, and not experience a sentiment of innermost grief."

Obviously Orthodox Christians will disagree about who deviated, but that is not what is being debated/argued here.  The 'Us' in this sentence refers to the RCC and her faithful, as does later on in the paragraph Athanasios mentioned.  He stated that "And as this Divine Prayer and Supplication does not include only the souls who then believed in Jesus Christ, but also every one of those who were henceforth to believe in Him, this Prayer holds out to Us no indifferent reason for confidently expressing Our hopes, and for making all possible endeavors in order that the men of every race and clime should be called and moved to embrace the Unity of Divine Faith."  Again, the 'Us' and 'Our' refers to RCs and the RCC, striving for unity with the Orthodox Church.  Pope Leo XIII was saying RCs should follow Christ's example, and "pray . . . that they all may be one, as Thou Father in Me, and I in Thee: that they also may be one in Us".  In other words, pray that Eastern Christendom would reunite with the West.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2007, 12:28:19 AM by Friul »
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Offline Athanasios

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Re: Pope of Rome Questions: Christ/God on earth, representative of Christ, etc?
« Reply #21 on: December 22, 2007, 12:33:50 AM »
Hello,

I'm not sure about your take on the We and Us. It is common practice for the Pope to refer to himself in the first person plural (the Royal We). That is how I read it.
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Offline Entscheidungsproblem

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Re: Pope of Rome Questions: Christ/God on earth, representative of Christ, etc?
« Reply #22 on: December 22, 2007, 12:45:59 AM »
Hello,

I'm not sure about your take on the We and Us. It is common practice for the Pope to refer to himself in the first person plural (the Royal We). That is how I read it.
I guess that makes sense since he would be speaking on behalf of the RCC and her faithful, which is obviously a first person plural, but I believe in doing so, the We and Us would still refer to the RCC as a whole, Pope, Cardinals, Bishops, Clergy and laity.  But, that is just how I read it, hardly means I'm right.  I'm sure a few more Roman Catholics will weigh in and give their input as well.
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Offline Athanasios

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Re: Pope of Rome Questions: Christ/God on earth, representative of Christ, etc?
« Reply #23 on: December 22, 2007, 12:52:56 AM »
Hello,

But, that is just how I read it, hardly means I'm right.

What! And I thought I was the only one not endowed with the gift of infallibility!  :P


I guess that makes sense since he would be speaking on behalf of the RCC and her faithful, which is obviously a first person plural, but I believe in doing so, the We and Us would still refer to the RCC as a whole, Pope, Cardinals, Bishops, Clergy and laity.  But, that is just how I read it, hardly means I'm right.  I'm sure a few more Roman Catholics will weigh in and give their input as well.

One could certainly make the argument that as Pope, he can speak on behalf of the entire Church. Although, as a layman, other than being Christ for another, I don't see how I fit in the mold of holding the place of God on earth. But, I can see that in the ministry of the Pope - which is how I understand his title of Vicar of Christ. It's not that we think the Pope is divine, but that as a vicar (Merriam-Webster definition #1), he is the visible substitute that Christ left to head His Church. I wish I had access to the Italian or Latin of this document, for as I recall, it gave a better sense of what the document was saying.
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Re: Pope of Rome Questions: Christ/God on earth, representative of Christ, etc?
« Reply #24 on: December 22, 2007, 12:57:08 AM »
I sometimes get the impression that some non-Catholics think we worship the Pope as some kind of demigod whose every word we must believe on pain of mortal sin.  :)

But wasn't that revealed in the Awful Disclosures of Maria Monk?

Offline Entscheidungsproblem

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Re: Pope of Rome Questions: Christ/God on earth, representative of Christ, etc?
« Reply #25 on: December 22, 2007, 01:14:11 AM »
But wasn't that revealed in the Awful Disclosures of Maria Monk?

I would hardly view it as a reliable source, and for the most part, it is seen as a hoax in academic and theological circles.  The only people who tend to still use it as proof against Roman Catholicism are fringe authors.
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Offline Entscheidungsproblem

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Re: Pope of Rome Questions: Christ/God on earth, representative of Christ, etc?
« Reply #26 on: December 22, 2007, 02:01:21 AM »
One could certainly make the argument that as Pope, he can speak on behalf of the entire Church. Although, as a layman, other than being Christ for another, I don't see how I fit in the mold of holding the place of God on earth. But, I can see that in the ministry of the Pope - which is how I understand his title of Vicar of Christ. It's not that we think the Pope is divine, but that as a vicar (Merriam-Webster definition #1), he is the visible substitute that Christ left to head His Church. I wish I had access to the Italian or Latin of this document, for as I recall, it gave a better sense of what the document was saying.

I used to base it around St. Athanasius' explanation that the Church (at the time I would have believed the RCC) is the 'throne' of Christ, in which He resides.  Where the Church is, as is Christ.  So when Pope Leo XIII said "But since We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty, Who will have all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the Truth", I believe he was speaking of Christ's Church, His throne, where men are to be saved and Divine Truth found.

And before anyone calls me a crypto-RC, LoL, that is how I would have read and understood the Letter when I was a RC.
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Re: Pope of Rome Questions: Christ/God on earth, representative of Christ, etc?
« Reply #27 on: December 22, 2007, 09:39:03 AM »
But wasn't that revealed in the Awful Disclosures of Maria Monk?

Can you prove that those Disclosures were infallible? (Just to make Navigator happy.  ;D ;))

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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Pope of Rome Questions: Christ/God on earth, representative of Christ, etc?
« Reply #28 on: December 22, 2007, 10:16:27 AM »
I used to base it around St. Athanasius' explanation that the Church (at the time I would have believed the RCC) is the 'throne' of Christ, in which He resides.  Where the Church is, as is Christ.  So when Pope Leo XIII said "But since We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty, Who will have all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the Truth", I believe he was speaking of Christ's Church, His throne, where men are to be saved and Divine Truth found.

And before anyone calls me a crypto-RC, LoL, that is how I would have read and understood the Letter when I was a RC.

This reminds me of a line from the Patriarchs response to Leo's predecessor:

Usurping as his own possession the Catholic Church of Christ, by occupancy, as he boasts, of the Episcopal Throne of St. Peter, he desires to deceive the more simple into apostasy from Orthodoxy, choosing for the basis of all theological instruction these paradoxical words (p. 10, 1.29): "nor is there any reason why ye refuse a return to the true Church and Communion with this my holy Throne."

10. Each one of our brethren and sons in Christ who have been piously brought up and instructed, wisely regarding the wisdom given him from God, will decide that the words of the present Bishop of Rome, like those of his schismatical predecessors, are not words of peace, as he affirms (p. 7,1.8), and of benevolence, but words of deceit and guile, tending to self-aggrandizement, agreeably to the practice of his antisynodical predecessors. We are therefore sure, that even as heretofore, so hereafter the Orthodox will not be beguiled. For the word of our LORD is sure (John x. 5), A stranger will they not follow, but flee from him, for they know not the voice of strangers.

11. For all this we have esteemed it our paternal and brotherly need, and a sacred duty, by our present admonition to confirm you in the Orthodoxy you hold from your forefathers, and at the same time point out the emptiness of the syllogisms of the Bishop of Rome, of which he is manifestly himself aware. For not from his Apostolic Confession does he glorify his Throne, but from his Apostolic Throne seeks to establish his dignity, and from his dignity, his Confession. The truth is the other way.[/u].

And lest this be seen as divisive, they also state:

But if his Holiness had sent us statements concordant and in unison with the seven holy Ecumenical Councils, instead of boasting of the piety of his predecessors lauded by our predecessors and fathers in an Ecumenical Council, he might justly have gloried in his own orthodoxy, declaring his own goodness instead of that of his fathers. Therefore let his Holiness be assured, that if, even now, he will write us such things as two hundred fathers on investigation and inquiry shall find consonant and agreeing with the said former Councils, then, we say, he shall hear from us sinners today, not only, "Peter has so spoken," or anything of like honor, but this also, "Let the holy hand be kissed which has wiped away the tears of the Catholic Church."
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/encyc_1848.aspx
« Last Edit: December 22, 2007, 10:17:23 AM by ialmisry »
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Offline AMM

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Re: Pope of Rome Questions: Christ/God on earth, representative of Christ, etc?
« Reply #29 on: December 22, 2007, 10:47:56 AM »
I would hardly view it as a reliable source, and for the most part, it is seen as a hoax in academic and theological circles.  The only people who tend to still use it as proof against Roman Catholicism are fringe authors.

Unfortunately the written word doesn't always convey sarcasm...

Fringe is as fringe does, which is why I brought that particular piece of doggerel up.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2007, 10:49:37 AM by AMM »

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Re: Pope of Rome Questions: Christ/God on earth, representative of Christ, etc?
« Reply #30 on: December 22, 2007, 10:59:03 AM »
Hello,

I used to base it around St. Athanasius' explanation that the Church (at the time I would have believed the RCC) is the 'throne' of Christ, in which He resides.  Where the Church is, as is Christ.  So when Pope Leo XIII said "But since We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty, Who will have all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the Truth", I believe he was speaking of Christ's Church, His throne, where men are to be saved and Divine Truth found.

And before anyone calls me a crypto-RC, LoL, that is how I would have read and understood the Letter when I was a RC.

That certainly is an interesting take on it.
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Offline lubeltri

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Re: Pope of Rome Questions: Christ/God on earth, representative of Christ, etc?
« Reply #31 on: December 22, 2007, 11:14:52 AM »
Why not both?

Offline Entscheidungsproblem

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Re: Pope of Rome Questions: Christ/God on earth, representative of Christ, etc?
« Reply #32 on: December 22, 2007, 11:20:43 AM »
Unfortunately the written word doesn't always convey sarcasm...

Fringe is as fringe does, which is why I brought that particular piece of doggerel up.

LoL, sorry about that.  You would be surprised how many times I have seen it used as a 'credible' source.  Even when marking history papers at University.   :P
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Re: Pope of Rome Questions: Christ/God on earth, representative of Christ, etc?
« Reply #34 on: December 22, 2007, 03:00:25 PM »
Wow.  That is the weakest and most absurd argument for the papacy I've heard.

FWIW, I didn't view it as an argument for the papacy.

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Re: Pope of Rome Questions: Christ/God on earth, representative of Christ, etc?
« Reply #35 on: December 24, 2007, 06:21:08 AM »
These were found on an Orthodox website some years back and I had asked many many times for any refutation of these documented statements from Roman Catholics.  And all I ever received from them is that I was sourcing a Protestant source. Well, that to me is not an answer.

I can only find your quote "The Pope is not only the representative of Jesus Christ, he is Jesus Christ himself" on anti-Catholic sites. Do you know any Catholic site that declares this?
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Re: Pope of Rome Questions: Christ/God on earth, representative of Christ, etc?
« Reply #36 on: December 24, 2007, 07:36:47 AM »
It is possible that these things have been written down somewhere, but I don't know of any Catholic who thinks that the Pope is "Lord God the Pope." Certainly, he holds a place of honor in the Church, as Catholics believe he is the successor of St. Peter. But some of the other titles appear to be blown out of proportion to a certain extent.
Let us remember that the Orthodox address the Ecumenical Patriarch as if he were tinged with divinity....  His correct title is "His Divine All-Holiness" which is something we almost never see in his English title, but there you are..... "Your Divinity" and "Your All-Holiness."

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Re: Pope of Rome Questions: Christ/God on earth, representative of Christ, etc?
« Reply #37 on: December 25, 2007, 06:35:59 AM »
Let us remember that the Orthodox address the Ecumenical Patriarch as if he were tinged with divinity....  His correct title is "His Divine All-Holiness" which is something we almost never see in his English title, but there you are..... "Your Divinity" and "Your All-Holiness."

Saints are holy without being divine
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Re: Pope of Rome Questions: Christ/God on earth, representative of Christ, etc?
« Reply #38 on: December 25, 2007, 01:24:30 PM »
Saints are holy without being divine

Is it not their participation in the Divine Nature which makes them Holy? What denomination are you?
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Pope of Rome Questions: Christ/God on earth, representative of Christ, etc?
« Reply #39 on: December 25, 2007, 01:32:01 PM »
Is it not their participation in the Divine Nature which makes them Holy? What denomination are you?

Divine by grace, not by nature/essence.

By the way, the old way of refering to the Emperor as Divine (divis) continued after Constantine's conversion, which has a hand in the titulature of the hierarchs.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2007, 01:33:00 PM by ialmisry »
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Re: Pope of Rome Questions: Christ/God on earth, representative of Christ, etc?
« Reply #40 on: December 25, 2007, 01:43:03 PM »
I can understand to a degree.  A lot of Roman Catholics are just endlessly bombarded with the same quotations and usually a whore of babylon reference or two from Protestants and they just lose it.  I know if I am ever forwarded to the site "jesus-is-savior" one more time, I would go insane.  LoL :laugh:

I'll look into the others, but all I can find is them on sites such as AntiChristPope and others.  Which, well, I doubt their context and legitimacy at times.   :P

Didn't our Beloved Fr.Ambrose post on C A F several documents of the popes saying the same thing also condeming people to hell if they didn't  believe ,, it was really creepy to read......stashko.........SmileyCentral.com" border="0
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Re: Pope of Rome Questions: Christ/God on earth, representative of Christ, etc?
« Reply #41 on: December 26, 2007, 07:08:18 AM »
Is it not their participation in the Divine Nature which makes them Holy?
Indeed. But they're still not divine! We take on God upon us without becoming God, too. (I know that in theois we become gods*, but that's small 'g')
What denomination are you?

I'm Orthodox; Antiochian Orthodox.


*St. Athanasius of Alexandria
“God became human so humans would become gods” (On the Incarnation 54:3, PG 25:192B). His statement is an apt description of the concept. What would otherwise seem absurd, that fallen, sinful man may become holy as God is holy, has been made possible through Jesus Christ, who is God incarnate. Naturally, the crucial Christian assertion, that God is One, sets an absolute limit on the meaning of theosis - it is not possible for any created being to become, ontologically, God, or even part of God (the henosis of Greek Neoplatonic philosophy)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theosis#Eastern_Orthodox_theology
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Re: Pope of Rome Questions: Christ/God on earth, representative of Christ, etc?
« Reply #42 on: December 26, 2007, 11:51:12 AM »
Indeed. But they're still not divine! We take on God upon us without becoming God, too. (I know that in theois we become gods*, but that's small 'g')

But don't we share in the attributes of God... like immortality? These aren't 'our' attributes they are the attributes given us by our participation 'with' and 'in' God Himself, right?

Quote
I'm Orthodox; Antiochian Orthodox.

Sorry Brother, I didn't know.  :o

Quote
*St. Athanasius of Alexandria
“God became human so humans would become gods” (On the Incarnation 54:3, PG 25:192B). His statement is an apt description of the concept. What would otherwise seem absurd, that fallen, sinful man may become holy as God is holy, has been made possible through Jesus Christ, who is God incarnate. Naturally, the crucial Christian assertion, that God is One, sets an absolute limit on the meaning of theosis - it is not possible for any created being to become, ontologically, God, or even part of God (the henosis of Greek Neoplatonic philosophy)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theosis#Eastern_Orthodox_theology

Is it not true that what Christ has by nature we have through adoption? God's energies are 'really' God ontologically speaking right? God in Action so to speak?
St Basil the Great (330-379 A.D.): “I think then that the one goal of all who are really and truly serving the Lord ought to be to bring back to union the churches who have at different times and in diverse manners divided from one another.”

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Re: Pope of Rome Questions: Christ/God on earth, representative of Christ, etc?
« Reply #43 on: December 26, 2007, 09:16:21 PM »
Is it not true that what Christ has by nature we have through adoption? God's energies are 'really' God ontologically speaking right? God in Action so to speak?

I believe Augustine said in his City of God that Deus habet qui est, God is what he has.  However, I think it is quite erroneous to speak of his energies as God's essence.  THey are radiances of His essence and they are how we perceive and recognize God, but not God Himself.  I would say that you are correct that they are God in Action but NOT God in an ontological sense.  I recommend reading St. Gregory Palamas on this issue.
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Re: Pope of Rome Questions: Christ/God on earth, representative of Christ, etc?
« Reply #44 on: December 27, 2007, 01:45:55 PM »
Hello,

Let us remember that the Orthodox address the Ecumenical Patriarch as if he were tinged with divinity....  His correct title is "His Divine All-Holiness" which is something we almost never see in his English title, but there you are..... "Your Divinity" and "Your All-Holiness."

And is not the Coptic Pope of Alexandria given the title of "Judge of the Universe" or something to that effect? I would venture the guess that these are (now archaic) forms of addressing persons of high stature in both royal courts and the Church - and not any sort of claim of divinity in the sense of being God (at least not in the Church, though some historical civil rulers were egotistical enough to make that claim :P)
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