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Author Topic: Nature of Schism (Valid Sacraments, Fullness, etc)  (Read 13328 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: December 19, 2007, 04:37:58 PM »

Roman Catholic Canon is it not?

Yup, it is from the Codex Iuris Canonici (1983).  Since we have withdrawn submission.
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« Reply #46 on: December 19, 2007, 04:40:46 PM »

He is fully present in more than one place and more than one time.
Yep.
Which is why He is both Uncircumscribable yet Circumscribed in the Incarnation. The Fullness of God was contained in the womb of the Theotokos. Since the Incarnation, the Fullness of God can, (and has been), contained. This is similar to the Orthodox Christian understanding of the word "Catholic" (kata + olikos = according to the whole). The fullness of the Church is contained in each local Church under a local Bishop. I guess that's why the concept of an Uncircumscribable God being Circumscribed is easier for us to accept.
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« Reply #47 on: December 20, 2007, 04:57:20 PM »

I don't think that the schism term is the big dividing point. As I noticed in some of your posts lubeltri, you use the term culpable an awful lot. Orthodox don't see things as a matter of culpability in the strict legal sense that the Roman Catholic Church seems to see. Orthodoxy doesn't see the degree of everything as a mitigating factor, it more or less sees things as they are. As it was said earlier, a sin is a sin is a sin.

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« Reply #48 on: December 20, 2007, 06:10:28 PM »

I don't think that the schism term is the big dividing point. As I noticed in some of your posts lubeltri, you use the term culpable an awful lot. Orthodox don't see things as a matter of culpability in the strict legal sense that the Roman Catholic Church seems to see. Orthodoxy doesn't see the degree of everything as a mitigating factor, it more or less sees things as they are. As it was said earlier, a sin is a sin is a sin.

So there are no degrees of culpability in Eastern Orthodoxy?

So an insane person who kills someone else is guilty of murder in EO teaching? How about a woman in China forced to abort her child? Is she guilty of murder too?

So people like these



are guilty of the sin of schism and heresy?

How about a humble but devout peasant family in a small northern French village in the year 1054 (or whatever date you want to make up)? Are they guilty of schism and heresy too because it didn't occur to them to proclaim their allegiance to some strange bearded guy far away in an exotic and almost fantastical place called Constantinople?
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« Reply #49 on: December 20, 2007, 06:29:14 PM »

So do Roman Catholics think that the Virgin Mary is the Mother of God or the Mother of a part of God?
I think it is the Mother of God. As we say in our prayer: Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen." And for Catholics, the term Mother of God, is pretty close to almost the same thing as Theotokos. And the Greek liturgy includes both titles: "It is truly fitting to call you blessed, the Theotokos, ever-blessed and wholly pure and the Mother of our God."
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« Reply #50 on: December 20, 2007, 06:31:09 PM »

I don't think that the schism term is the big dividing point.

Would you be willing to expand on what you think is the big dividing point, keeping in mind, that even in the Orthodox Church, there exists a Western rite.
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« Reply #51 on: December 20, 2007, 06:39:07 PM »


Would you be willing to expand on what you think is the big dividing point, keeping in mind, that even in the Orthodox Church, there exists a Western rite.

The question is not one of rite.  There are Eastern Rite Catholics who, essentially, follow the same traditions and typicon of the various jurisdictions of the  Eastern Orthodox Church.  The big dividing points, in my opinion are as follows:

1)  the primacy and authority of the Pope (primacy of honor OK; universal unilateral authority not OK)
2)  the consistent adding of dogmas and doctrines and rules to the original deposit of faith given by Christ to the Church (e.g. filioque, purgatory, mandatory clerical celibacy)
3)  the continued jettisoning of established practices to make Roman Catholics harmonize with liberal Protestants (Benedict XVI is working though to root much of that out)

That's just my opinion.  I'm sure there are others but I'm not really thinking straight right now.  I think my fellow Orthodox will chime in agreement with my first two and add others of their own.
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« Reply #52 on: December 22, 2007, 02:08:11 AM »

I'm just trying to keep this thread on topic, which is about Nature of Schism and its effects.

The recent tangent about the Pope and the questions about whether he is God/Christ on Earth, a representative of Christ, and various other things has been moved here:  http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,14011.0.html

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« Reply #53 on: January 14, 2008, 07:24:44 AM »

, and I could not imagine God entirely denying one side sacramental grace because of the sins of proud prelates from long ago;
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So you believe that the Anglicans (and Lutherans?) have a true episcopate, valid priests and a valid Eucharist.

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« Reply #54 on: January 15, 2008, 12:58:19 PM »

*
So you believe that the Anglicans (and Lutherans?) have a true episcopate, valid priests and a valid Eucharist.

The Anglican question is murky. Apostolicae Curae notwithstanding, there is room for varying views. Some Anglicans hold to the historic and apostolic understandings of the episcopate, the priesthood, and the Eucharist. There is a question about the Anglican rites of ordination, but I choose not to speculate on it.

Lutherans have largely abandoned these. They even deny them as sacraments, save baptism and Holy Communion. Lutheranism rejects sacerdotalism. Lutheranism couldn't care about whether we consider them as being "valid" priests because they reject that concept as we understand it.

If you lose the episcopate and the priesthood, you lose the Eucharist.

It goes without saying that these Christians have been baptized, which does not have to be performed by a priest or bishop.
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« Reply #55 on: January 16, 2008, 11:23:41 AM »

The Anglican question is murky. Apostolicae Curae notwithstanding, there is room for varying views. Some Anglicans hold to the historic and apostolic understandings of the episcopate, the priesthood, and the Eucharist. There is a question about the Anglican rites of ordination, but I choose not to speculate on it.

Lutherans have largely abandoned these. They even deny them as sacraments, save baptism and Holy Communion. Lutheranism rejects sacerdotalism. Lutheranism couldn't care about whether we consider them as being "valid" priests because they reject that concept as we understand it.

If you lose the episcopate and the priesthood, you lose the Eucharist.

It goes without saying that these Christians have been baptized, which does not have to be performed by a priest or bishop.

Why is the Anglican question "murky"?

Is it correct that this group is associated with King Henry VIII and the "church" he started in drunken, adulterous and murderous rage?

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« Reply #56 on: January 16, 2008, 11:44:33 AM »

Why is the Anglican question "murky"?

Is it correct that this group is associated with King Henry VIII and the "church" he started in drunken, adulterous and murderous rage?

Why is the Ethiopian question clearcut?

Is it correct that the Ethiopian Church insists on circumcision of males on the 8th day and are therefore Judaisers?
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« Reply #57 on: January 16, 2008, 02:50:54 PM »

Why is the Ethiopian question clearcut?

Is it correct that the Ethiopian Church insists on circumcision of males on the 8Th day and are therefore Judaisers?

I see...

You want to attack me and the largest and oldest Orthodox Christian community on earth because of my question I asked lubeltri.

I am sorry if my question touched a nerve with you.

I will refrain from responding to your question for the moment but I will say this first:

You are very unfamiliar with Ethiopia and Africa in general. Our tradition of circumcision is more ancient than Judaism and goes back long before Abraham was even born. Actually circumcision and many so-called "Judaic" traditions are rooted in African tradition. These traditions were born into the Hebraic culture during this cultures sojourn in Africa. No wonder Ethiopia / Cush / Mizraim / KMT (Kemet) or "Egypt" in the Greek term are mentioned vastly throughout the Torah (or old Testament). The Torah mentions the Lord God even comparing Israel with the Ethiopians that "they are to be more like us in holiness and faith in Him" (read the book of Amos).

Our Church is Universal and Apostolic, Orthodox in the Lord Christ. We have no requirement that a person, child or otherwise be circumcised in order to become or be or stay a Christian.

I participated in a baptism just last Sunday. The baby was NOT circumcised and was baptised with full rites as would be expected by all orthodox Churches.

You are misinformed as are so many Westerners regarding Africa and the East. I read so many silly un-researched books and papers by lazy PhD candidates and pseudo-scientist regarding my people and culture.

If you really want to know the facts of this issue let me know and I will post a link. Right now I think your post is strictly sarcasm.
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« Reply #58 on: January 16, 2008, 04:36:09 PM »

I see...

You want to attack me and the largest and oldest Orthodox Christian community on earth because of my question I asked lubeltri.

I am sorry if my question touched a nerve with you.

I will refrain from responding to your question for the moment but I will say this first:

You are very unfamiliar with Ethiopia and Africa in general. Our tradition of circumcision is more ancient than Judaism and goes back long before Abraham was even born. Actually circumcision and many so-called "Judaic" traditions are rooted in African tradition. These traditions were born into the Hebraic culture during this cultures sojourn in Africa. No wonder Ethiopia / Cush / Mizraim / KMT (Kemet) or "Egypt" in the Greek term are mentioned vastly throughout the Torah (or old Testament). The Torah mentions the Lord God even comparing Israel with the Ethiopians that "they are to be more like us in holiness and faith in Him" (read the book of Amos).

Our Church is Universal and Apostolic, Orthodox in the Lord Christ. We have no requirement that a person, child or otherwise be circumcised in order to become or be or stay a Christian.

I participated in a baptism just last Sunday. The baby was NOT circumcised and was baptised with full rites as would be expected by all orthodox Churches.

You are misinformed as are so many Westerners regarding Africa and the East. I read so many silly un-researched books and papers by lazy PhD candidates and pseudo-scientist regarding my people and culture.

If you really want to know the facts of this issue let me know and I will post a link. Right now I think your post is strictly sarcasm.
You don't see the point of ozgeorge's post, do you?  He intentionally spouted a gross error regarding your tradition to show you how your assertion regarding the Anglican tradition was an equally gross error.
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« Reply #59 on: January 16, 2008, 07:05:58 PM »

You don't see the point of ozgeorge's post, do you?  He intentionally spouted a gross error regarding your tradition to show you how your assertion regarding the Anglican tradition was an equally gross error.

Oh!

I would never have figure that out on my own.

I always get these sub-intelligent type points of view about my culture from people.

The type of people I am speaking about are the type that even think that 'they' know what a black person looks like. They have a strange thinking to me. It is rather innocent but still revolting.

I had one of these types in my office at work. He saw a picture of my family and some church friends on my computer I had down loaded. Upon his study of the persons in the picture; he immediately said that "this man does not look black"!. I said "why"? He said "I think he looks like Arab or maybe mixed with black". I said "well do I look black to you". He said "yes". That ended the conversation at that time.

Just so you know the person he was referring to was my father....go figure; but that's my point.

I asked him later while I was sitting with him and a few other Europeans all from varying parts of Europe and I said to him " Which of you look white"? He said with a curious look "We all do". I said "why?...we have here one man who has red hair and freckles and is from Ireland, we have another man here who is almost as browns as me with a short stature who is from Greece, we have yet another man here is is very tall and very white with blond hair and light gray eyes from Poland and than you are very tall with white albeit not so white skin black hair and are from Bulgaria". You all look nothing a like".
he said "I see your point but that is just the various appearances we all have; but that does not change our race as white". I said "exactly....so why did you say my father did not look black and I did?" He said "I see what you mean....THAT WAS YOU FATHER!. I said "YES".

I hope sharing that experience I had will underline very clearly why I took the position I did on this thread regarding comments about Ethiopian tradition.

I am not angry or upset; I think opportunities like this help me to undo in my own little place in the world some stigmas and stereo types that are unfair and crippling to society.

 

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« Reply #60 on: January 16, 2008, 07:23:40 PM »

You don't see the point of ozgeorge's post, do you?  He intentionally spouted a gross error regarding your tradition to show you how your assertion regarding the Anglican tradition was an equally gross error.

The name "Anglican" means "of England", but the Anglican church exists worldwide. It began in the sixth century in England, when Pope Gregory the Great sent St. Augustine to Britain to bring a more disciplined Apostolic succession to the Celtic Christians. The Anglican Church evolved as part of the Roman church, but the Celtic influence was folded back into the Roman portion of the church in many ways, perhaps most notably by Charlemagne's tutor Aidan. The Anglican church was spread worldwide first by English colonization and then by English-speaking missionaries.

There is a public perception, especially in the United States, that Henry VIII created the Anglican church in anger over the Pope's refusal to grant his divorce, but the historical record indicates that Henry spent most of his reign challenging the authority of Rome, and that the divorce issue was just one of a series of acts that collectively split the English church from the Roman church in much the same way that the Orthodox church had split off five hundred years before.

http://www.anglican.org/index.html

...

The Above is the garble from a so-called official Anglican Church website.

They note the same things I said but with cute little excuses and semantical overtures to set aside the awful truth that is at the heart of this unfortunate group.

I like this statement:"The Anglican church was spread worldwide first by English colonization and then by English-speaking missionaries".

Maybe they forgot that these folks were slave dealers and land barrons. Traveling the world in rat infested boats Stealing land from people or better put..."finding the new world".

Note how they even use the Orthodox Church to help prop up their.... Uhm... history.

Utter desperation.

Sad...

PS

I will say that the Anglican "Church" is a very churchy looking church with all the huge buildings and stuff. Very nice looking...believable.
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« Reply #61 on: January 16, 2008, 07:38:20 PM »

It goes without saying that these Christians have been baptized, which does not have to be performed by a priest or bishop.
*
It does not go without saying.  The teaching of the Fathers and the canons of the Ecumenical Councils make it impossible to say that it goes without saying.  The Church commonly baptizes Anglicans when they wish to be received.
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« Reply #62 on: January 16, 2008, 07:49:52 PM »

The Above is the garble from a so-called official Anglican Church website.

They note the same things I said but with cute little excuses and semantical overtures to set aside the awful truth that is at the heart of this unfortunate group.

I like this statement:"The Anglican church was spread worldwide first by English colonization and then by English-speaking missionaries".

Maybe they forgot that these folks were slave dealers and land barrons. Traveling the world in rat infested boats Stealing land from people or better put..."finding the new world".

Note how they even use the Orthodox Church to help prop up their.... Uhm... history.

Utter desperation.

Sad...

PS

I will say that the Anglican "Church" is a very churchy looking church with all the huge buildings and stuff. Very nice looking...believable.


By this point, we all know of your hatred for anything Protestant, so would you please stop beating us over the head with it?

Not every Englishman that set sail for North America woke up one day and thought, "You know, I think today's a great day to sail off, enslave some people, and steal some land."  The vast majority of them were simply looking for somewhere to make a better life for themselves.  And of course, I highly doubt that most Anglican priests who emigrated wanted to do anything other than tend their flocks that were scattering all over the world.  The Church of England might be an established church, but that hardly makes it an instrument of British government policy.
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« Reply #63 on: January 16, 2008, 08:53:23 PM »

By this point, we all know of your hatred for anything Protestant, so would you please stop beating us over the head with it?

Not every Englishman that set sail for North America woke up one day and thought, "You know, I think today's a great day to sail off, enslave some people, and steal some land."  The vast majority of them were simply looking for somewhere to make a better life for themselves.  And of course, I highly doubt that most Anglican priests who emigrated wanted to do anything other than tend their flocks that were scattering all over the world.  The Church of England might be an established church, but that hardly makes it an instrument of British government policy.

Dn Amde,

Furthermore, be thankful that it is the AFRICAN Anglicans that actually the traditional ones preserving orthopraxis/theology (deliberate use of small "o") as opposed to the left-wing majority (maybe they aren't actually the majority - I don't know).
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« Reply #64 on: January 17, 2008, 04:58:16 AM »

*
It does not go without saying.  The teaching of the Fathers and the canons of the Ecumenical Councils make it impossible to say that it goes without saying.  The Church commonly baptizes Anglicans when they wish to be received.

When I wrote "It goes without saying," I was referring to my Church's perspective, not yours. We are not neo-Donatists. Yes, we consider the Anglicans Christians.
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« Reply #65 on: January 17, 2008, 05:26:04 AM »

When I wrote "It goes without saying," I was referring to my Church's perspective, not yours. We are not neo-Donatists.
*
Ah, but I think you are!    The Donatists refused to accept the sacraments and spiritual authority of the priests and bishops who had fallen away from the faith under pressure of persecution.  This is precisly the position of the Anglican bishops and priests who had to follow their English government's frequent change of religious allegiance or be persecuted.   Your Church denies the sacraments of these people, just as the Donatists would.
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« Reply #66 on: January 17, 2008, 02:31:40 PM »

*
Ah, but I think you are!    The Donatists refused to accept the sacraments and spiritual authority of the priests and bishops who had fallen away from the faith under pressure of persecution.  This is precisly the position of the Anglican bishops and priests who had to follow their English government's frequent change of religious allegiance or be persecuted.   Your Church denies the sacraments of these people, just as the Donatists would.
We deny the sacraments of these people because of the form and intent of their ordinition, that is except for the sacraments of marriage and baptism.
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« Reply #67 on: January 17, 2008, 06:34:31 PM »

By this point, we all know of your hatred for anything Protestant, so would you please stop beating us over the head with it?

 The vast majority of them were simply looking for somewhere to make a better life for themselves. 

OK ...I will shut it down.

One last point I beg...

How can someone "simply" look for somewhere to make a better life for themselves in somebody Else's country and land?

Is it really "simple" to do that?

Considering that we are already after the fact I guess the answer should be clear.

These people may have had "innocent" intentions but the results were mass murder and a "grab-and-snatch fiasco" all on a global scale. As a result Europeans have morphed into so many different nationalities from South African to Australian and everything in between and of course the same goes for their African slaves; the descendants of which are dotted all over the planet.

Do you how many innocent women and children were thrown over board of these missionary / slave dealing / land grabbing boats? ....Millions. There are millions of skeletons at the bottom of the Atlantic. It is the worlds largest grave yard. There are more Africans laying on the bottom of this waterway than walking on American soil right now.The majority of the dead are African captives.

Some were Christians already according to ship logs I have seen. One ship log I read this from is framed and mounted hanging on a wall in my father-in-laws house. He is an expert on the transatlantic slave trade and before retiring traveled the country teaching and lecturing on this subject and black history in general.

One thing I can say is that these were surely very strong very fierce and very brave people. These may be redeeming qualities to some people I hope.

I do not "hate" protestants. I reject the mindset as well as the nature and character of this pitiful lot.

I am not the enemy of the protestant. The history they have made for themselves of which I only remark on here is what causes the lack of respect and disdain people maintain when they stop and think about what has really happened because of them.

I have a hard time finding righteous or even Christlike intentions in the whole nightmare that is the protestant world.

In Christ time the question was asked.."Can any good thing come out of Nazareth?" the area was a haven of despair. But the answer was YES!...Jesus!

I ask this question now....Can any good thing come out of protestantism? The answer to me is ... "who knows; I leave that to God...but I will steer clear of it and all its influences as much as possible....God is the judge of that".

Thus RC and Universal Catholics (the Orthodox) carry the only valid truth which is the Church.

Whatever else is out there has Gods grace and as such has Gods mercy. We must pray for them and for ourselves especially "them" since they are not within the confines of the Holy Church and are thus subject to all kinds of doctrines and schemes caused by the temptations of the devil.

Within the Holy Church we are protected for such 'carrying on' and temptation. The Holy Church is our protection while in this world.

I conclude...


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« Reply #68 on: January 17, 2008, 11:49:52 PM »

"I conclude..."

Let's hope so.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #69 on: January 18, 2008, 08:01:41 AM »

I conclude...

Promise?
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« Reply #70 on: January 18, 2008, 08:37:11 AM »

Quote
I do not "hate" protestants. I reject the mindset as well as the nature and character of this pitiful lot.

Are you truly oblivious to your inappropriate language which reeks of contempt? Please don't bother to answer; the question is rhetorical.

I conclude...

We live in hope.
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« Reply #71 on: January 31, 2008, 10:39:29 AM »

*
It does not go without saying.  The teaching of the Fathers and the canons of the Ecumenical Councils make it impossible to say that it goes without saying.  The Church commonly baptizes Anglicans when they wish to be received.

Which Church? Or, more specifically, which jurisdiction?




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« Reply #72 on: January 31, 2008, 10:42:27 AM »

Which Church? Or, more specifically, which jurisdiction?
I don't understand.  What do you mean by jurisdiction?  Bishops have jurisdiction in their diocese -are you asking which bishops?
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« Reply #73 on: January 31, 2008, 11:00:40 AM »

The name "Anglican" means "of England", but the Anglican church exists worldwide. It began in the sixth century in England, when Pope Gregory the Great sent St. Augustine to Britain to bring a more disciplined Apostolic succession to the Celtic Christians. The Anglican Church evolved as part of the Roman church, but the Celtic influence was folded back into the Roman portion of the church in many ways, perhaps most notably by Charlemagne's tutor Aidan. The Anglican church was spread worldwide first by English colonization and then by English-speaking missionaries.

There is a public perception, especially in the United States, that Henry VIII created the Anglican church in anger over the Pope's refusal to grant his divorce, but the historical record indicates that Henry spent most of his reign challenging the authority of Rome, and that the divorce issue was just one of a series of acts that collectively split the English church from the Roman church in much the same way that the Orthodox church had split off five hundred years before.

http://www.anglican.org/index.html

...

The Above is the garble from a so-called official Anglican Church website.

They note the same things I said but with cute little excuses and semantical overtures to set aside the awful truth that is at the heart of this unfortunate group.

I like this statement:"The Anglican church was spread worldwide first by English colonization and then by English-speaking missionaries".

Maybe they forgot that these folks were slave dealers and land barrons. Traveling the world in rat infested boats Stealing land from people or better put..."finding the new world".

Note how they even use the Orthodox Church to help prop up their.... Uhm... history.

Utter desperation.

Sad...

PS

I will say that the Anglican "Church" is a very churchy looking church with all the huge buildings and stuff. Very nice looking...believable.


Well said.

Theophan.
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« Reply #74 on: January 31, 2008, 11:14:02 AM »

http://www.anglican.org/index.html

The Above is the garble from a so-called official Anglican Church website.
*
That must be why it states the opposite so clearly on the front page:

"This Anglican Domain web site is not official in any way."  :-)
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« Reply #75 on: January 31, 2008, 01:28:37 PM »

I don't understand.  What do you mean by jurisdiction?  Bishops have jurisdiction in their diocese -are you asking which bishops?
What I mean is that Anglican's are not required to be baptised on admission to the Church under the Jurisdiction of the Bishop of Rome.


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« Reply #76 on: January 31, 2008, 02:28:56 PM »

"I conclude..."

Let's hope so.  Roll Eyes

Patience, brother, patience (and charity).
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« Reply #77 on: January 31, 2008, 02:30:38 PM »

Note how they even use the Orthodox Church to help prop up their.... Uhm... history.

Yeah, I notice that too.
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« Reply #78 on: January 31, 2008, 02:31:41 PM »

When I wrote "It goes without saying," I was referring to my Church's perspective,

I'm glad you clarified that: I, like Fr. Ambrose, found it strange that you said "It goes without saying that these Christians have been baptized".

God bless,
Peter.
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« Reply #79 on: January 31, 2008, 02:55:06 PM »

*
That must be why it states the opposite so clearly on the front page:

"This Anglican Domain web site is not official in any way."  :-)

OK

I did not think it was.

As if it were official it would make any difference in the fact that this is group founded by schismatic heretics is thus today nothing more than a very well healed, well established, well engrained western imperial element having everything to do with Anglo-Saxon arrogance and dominance in the world (real and imagined) as well as a repository and maintenance program for the historical accomplishments and general pedigree of the Anglo-royal-line than anything really Christian. The clergy among this group are more like gate keepers and stewarts to a great and noble past. The faithful (if we can say that) are liken to the subjects of that long lost nobility in our time and all in the name of Christ...the Savior of the world and the advancement of his Holy Church on earth.

BUT OF COURSE!

Many of the descendants of these people even justified their outright innialation and enslavement of peoples and nations all over the world to 'advance' .....uhm...'Gods' will in the name of Christ and His Holy Church on earth.

What was that proud phrase: "The sun does not set on the British Crown"?

That was a sweet albeit 'twisted' honor especially since the worldwide exploits of the west that created this proud, noble 'global hierachy' was supposed to be to "advance Christ Chruch" on earth...not the Crown of England.

Hmmm!

In my mind I can not muster not even one redemeable quality form this group unless we are talking secularism. From a secular stand point I admire how the architecture and behavior (or style of dress) of the 'clergy class' mimmicks 'The Church'. The buildings and vestures are extremely excellent and church-like. The cavernous 'holy-ish-ness' of the worship spaces are remarkable. Very old world. Admirable indeed. And the books..wow!!

I pray that one day these people will see the truth of what the Holy Church actually is and form themsleves into Its bosom in lieu of continuing with the current folly.

I have made a strong stance here. I want to be clear that we all are required to embrace the One True Holy Universal and Apostolic Church of God of which Christ is the head of this Body which is His. WE all must struggle out of 'nationalistic' affiliations and embrace only the true faith without thought to national origin or language, heritage or pedigree.

The Scripture teaches: "There is no more Jew or Greek".

This is a good lesson which is clearly indicative that Christ Holy Church is not defined by national borders, local customs and history.

Let us be careful that we care more for....lets say.... "The Ethiopian Church" than for the 'Holy Church' for example.

Christ died and was resurrected for the whole world..all peoples. His Church which is the ONLY TRUE CHURCH is the repository of Universal faith and omni-present Truth which existed before the world was created. The Clergy are elected to carry the honorable word and glory of God by virtue of the Holy Spirit (not by or for thier own actions or cares) to feed the world the food of life. The truely faithfiul disregard their own lives in lieu of walking like Christ in all things; preparing for His second advent by partaking of the Holy mysteries at the hand of His servants the priests.

Unification of the faith takes an humility most of us do not have or have ever seen in our lifetimes.

'lack of true humility'.....

This is why schism eats us (and has been eating us)at the core...this means all of us in and outside The Church.


 
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« Reply #80 on: January 31, 2008, 03:04:52 PM »

The phrase "the sun never sets on the British Empire" was often modified to include the addendum "because God does not trust the English in the dark."

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« Reply #81 on: January 31, 2008, 04:30:25 PM »

^^LOL! I had never heard of the addendum before! Quite the bon mot!
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« Reply #82 on: January 31, 2008, 07:58:36 PM »

The phrase "the sun never sets on the British Empire" was often modified to include the addendum "because God does not trust the English in the dark."

Since when did the British Empire consist solely of the English? Huh
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« Reply #83 on: January 31, 2008, 08:20:32 PM »

Since when did the British Empire consist solely of the English? Huh

It never did, God trusts the Scots, the Welsh and the Irish in the dark.
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« Reply #84 on: January 31, 2008, 08:23:42 PM »

It never did, God trusts the Scots, the Welsh and the Irish in the dark.

I am highly offended. Tongue
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