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Author Topic: Ancestral Orthodoxy  (Read 10468 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #90 on: December 20, 2007, 07:10:04 PM »

I'd really like to see a primary source citation on that claim. 

Just making a bump to this point.  I'd really like a citation as to where Bonhoeffer denies the Trinity and the Resurrection of Christ. 
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« Reply #91 on: December 23, 2007, 03:16:42 AM »

I know that the protestant "movement" is placed at Luther and his boys.

I am saying that what Luther was doing; his thinking etc. is principally protestant. He is not the creator of the manners; the whole way of thinking that is the nature of protestantism. His teachers and thier teachers were his best followers. Luther did to the western community (church) what knowone else could do before him.

Protestantism has deep roots. NOT the 'term' as a so-called christian sect but the nature and attitude; the very ideals that the phrase describes.

The so-called crusaders were and still are idiolized by the protestant conservative and mainstream; especialy in America. Protestants are very proud of the history of the crusades. I have yet to hear an orthodox or a RC speak with pride and bravado about this sad group of people.

I also see that protestantism can permiate a person without realizing it.

It is a way of life for most people. This point is very complex.


Friend, I was a life-long protestant, (47 years) before discovering Orthodoxy and I never approved, applauded or thought well of the Crusades.

Please speak with a bit more equanimity and sober reasoning.
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« Reply #92 on: December 23, 2007, 03:22:47 AM »

Just making a bump to this point.  I'd really like a citation as to where Bonhoeffer denies the Trinity and the Resurrection of Christ. 
I think his letters from prison display some angst and doubt, form what I have been told by real Bonhoegger lovers who have read them. I would not judge a brother in his shoes, He was displaying his humanity. Even St. John the Forrunner, form prison, sent messengers to Jesus inquiring if He was the One who was to come. So I would not judge Bonhoeffer from prison letters.
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« Reply #93 on: December 23, 2007, 03:33:56 AM »

I think his letters from prison display some angst and doubt, form what I have been told by real Bonhoegger lovers who have read them. I would not judge a brother in his shoes, He was displaying his humanity. Even St. John the Forrunner, form prison, sent messengers to Jesus inquiring if He was the One who was to come. So I would not judge Bonhoeffer from prison letters.

Thanks.  I'll have to go back and re-read those.  I do remember the sense of angst, but nothing like an emphatic denial from a dogmatic point of view.  Regardless, I will always think that The Cost of Discipleship was one of the most profound pieces of Christian literature ever written. 
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« Reply #94 on: December 23, 2007, 05:42:49 PM »

I don't want my parish identified with Russian culture because this is not the truth and it excludes all not of that background. History and roots are just that. They have influenced the present. But they are not in the present.

The Orthodox Church is by and large shrinking in this country and I don't see (I honestly don't) how the introduction of foreign languages will help this situation.

History and roots are important though I think when creating a faith rooted in something, and not just whatever the current fad or trend is.  Having a parish in my opinion identified with a particular church culture is not necessarily a bad thing, as long as there is openness to other cultures, people and traditions.  I think there is a medium between the ethnic enclave and the completely generic, all English type setting.

Ultimately I'm not saying introduce languages where they're not in use now, just that there's no reason to jettison them altogether where they are being used; or that they're use in a limited context is a bad thing.  Learning some Slavonic or Greek or whatever to say some prayers or sing some hymns I think is a good thing and will ultimately enrich someone's church experience and not detract from it.
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« Reply #95 on: December 23, 2007, 07:50:02 PM »

. .

I think the ordinary parts of a liturgy can and should be in the sacred language.

Why?

What "sacred language?"

Aramaic?
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« Reply #96 on: December 24, 2007, 02:20:22 PM »

Friend, I was a life-long protestant, (47 years) before discovering Orthodoxy and I never approved, applauded or thought well of the Crusades.

Please speak with a bit more equanimity and sober reasoning.

I was not inlcluding you.

I was only speakng of the protestants that do applaud the crusades which is pretty wide spread. That does not mean ALL protestants.

PS:
When did we become "friends"?
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« Reply #97 on: December 24, 2007, 03:19:06 PM »

PS:
When did we become "friends"?

To piggyback on this, people seem to think that frequent discussions on internet fora automatically qualify each other as "friends", when in reality all of us are online acquaintances until we start meeting frequently in real life.  Just because we're all "Orthodox" (quotes deliberate due to our varied backgrounds and the forum rules), doesn't automatically make us all friends.  I know plenty of Orthodox that I'll probably never be friends with - we're just too different, don't have much in common besides faith, etc.
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« Reply #98 on: December 24, 2007, 04:40:11 PM »

To piggyback on this, people seem to think that frequent discussions on internet fora automatically qualify each other as "friends", when in reality all of us are online acquaintances until we start meeting frequently in real life.  Just because we're all "Orthodox" (quotes deliberate due to our varied backgrounds and the forum rules), doesn't automatically make us all friends.  I know plenty of Orthodox that I'll probably never be friends with - we're just too different, don't have much in common besides faith, etc.

I understand exactly.

I would like for us all to be 'friends'; more even ..... 'Family', one in everything since everything in Christ is one. When we are all in Christ there is no division. "There is neither jew or gentile" but all are one body a holy nation.

I know that is idealistic to most; like you said we are too different.

But the Lord said that His Church is a single nation in Him.

Considering what our Lord esatblished and commanded us TO BE I wonder what it is that keeps us apart?

Whatever it is I am more than sure that these things has NOTHING to do with what our Lord established for us.

I wanted BrotherAiden to explain his feelings of 'friendship'. That's why I asked him "when did we become friends?"
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« Reply #99 on: December 25, 2007, 01:31:08 AM »

Friend can simply be a term of personal regard and doesn't indicate any sort of interpersonal relationship.  The term can be used many ways.  The "Friends of the XYZ Ballet" aren't a bunch of people that know each other and hang out.  Some people call each other "brother", but oddly enough are not actually brothers.

BrotherAidan is using the term because he's a nice person.
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« Reply #100 on: December 26, 2007, 10:47:30 AM »

Semantics
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« Reply #101 on: December 26, 2007, 12:19:39 PM »

Semantics

Pedantics more likely.

Thinking about this thread I think the reasons why people left the church are probably complex.  Bad priests, no Orthodox church around, intermarriage, language, a inter church feud; but probably most importantly is likely disinterest and apathy.  The same thing that affects every church.
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« Reply #102 on: December 26, 2007, 01:47:53 PM »

Friend can simply be a term of personal regard and doesn't indicate any sort of interpersonal relationship.  The term can be used many ways.  The "Friends of the XYZ Ballet" aren't a bunch of people that know each other and hang out.  Some people call each other "brother", but oddly enough are not actually brothers.

BrotherAidan is using the term because he's a nice person.

I am not acustomed to fellow believers referring to each other as "friend".

Where I come from this usage toward another believer is very very bad manners. It is not endearing at all. It is read as sarcasm (real or imagined).

We are taugh to say "brother" or "sister" and if the person is and older person we use a different term but not brother or sister and if the person is clergy we use the office first and then the name.

Actually I find this common practice in all orthodox circles i have experienced.

I have never heard or read such a discription as "friend" within orthodox circles. I donot even think protestants use this term to each other.

Thats also why I asked BrotherAiden; "when did we become friends"
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« Reply #103 on: December 27, 2007, 01:27:12 PM »

Thinking about this thread I think the reasons why people left the church are probably complex.  Bad priests, no Orthodox church around, intermarriage, language, a inter church feud; but probably most importantly is likely disinterest and apathy.  The same thing that affects every church.

Go ask people who were once Orthodox but now belong to other Christian churches why they or their parents left the church. You will find it has nothing to do with apathy. I would wager the language issue will be the number one reason most left Orthodoxy. I have asked many of my friends and that is the answer I have received. Most of these folks are very dedicated evangelicals, Roman Catholics, or Lutherans. Marriage to a non-Orthodox gives them what they believe is an acceptable reason to join a church which uses English. Most of us who have stuck with Orthodoxy thru the last few generations attend Orthodox churches which use English for our spouses and family members. In my parish we have two Greek-Americans, three Arab-Americans, and two Russian-Americans who have married those who were originally not Orthodox. But we have all found a church community where our spouses feel at home and accepted. Everyone of the our spouses have become Orthodox. As my Greek-American friend tells me,"Do whatever you can to insure that the next 33 generations of your family remains Orthodox!"
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« Reply #104 on: December 27, 2007, 01:51:35 PM »

Go ask people who were once Orthodox but now belong to other Christian churches why they or their parents left the church. You will find it has nothing to do with apathy. I would wager the language issue will be the number one reason most left Orthodoxy. I have asked many of my friends and that is the answer I have received. Most of these folks are very dedicated evangelicals, Roman Catholics, or Lutherans.

Right, but that sort of indicates that they would not be apathetic about their faith or disinterested in religion if they became dedicated members of other churches.  Overall, I would wager the majority of people who leave the church do not become dedicated members of other churches, though some might.  Language I'm sure is an issue, but it doesn't explain everything.  I have a co-worker whose wife is Orthodox and whose family attends an all English OCA church.  She goes maybe once a year, and they've made no attempt to take their kids to religious education.  I have another co-worker who doesn't like to drive to his parish so only goes once every couple of months.  My own parish, which is nearly all English aside from some hymns here and there, has lots of people who only show up for Easter and Christmas, and others who never come at all.

I agree that English should be the language of the liturgy in this country (assuming it is the first language of the people participating in the liturgy).  That in and of itself doesn't explain why the church isn't growing more or why some people continue to leave.
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« Reply #105 on: December 27, 2007, 03:08:33 PM »

OK. This could turn into another "English only" debate. I think what AMM is trying to say is taht having liturgy in English alone is not a panacea. I think it is a positive step since after all we are in the US and last I checked English is the lingua franca.  But there is more involved. If members of a church, any church, are apathetic, disinterested or if the priest is not a visionary or leader of sorts any congregation could disintegrate.  I attended liturgy at a Slavonic only church as a child. I left the church for many reasons not associated with language including, disinterest, distrust, improper catechesis I also was very independent and not a joiner type when I was younger. Changing the language to English would not be enough to keep me at that time.
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« Reply #106 on: December 27, 2007, 03:09:59 PM »

P.S.  I am an ancestral Orthodox. One thing that drew back was my "ethnic" connection.
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« Reply #107 on: December 27, 2007, 03:53:42 PM »

I think what AMM is trying to say is taht having liturgy in English alone is not a panacea. I think it is a positive step since after all we are in the US and last I checked English is the lingua franca.  But there is more involved. If members of a church, any church, are apathetic, disinterested or if the priest is not a visionary or leader of sorts any congregation could disintegrate.

That is what I'm getting at and the types of things you're mentioning could indeed become problems.

One thing I regret in this thread is that I made a comparison between supporting a full recension based on the traditions of a particular church and aiming services at a least common denominator type congregation which minimizes things and aims for a more Protestant or minimalist like atmosphere.  I regret it because it was probably a stupid and unfair comparison, and there's no reason to use the wording of "Byzantinized Methodist Meeting" that I did.  I'm kicking myself now.

One thing that has annoyed me, past and present, is the potshots people like to take at other groups.  Protestants (and there is no one exact type) seem to be on the receiving end in a few threads I've read recently.  I'm not just babbling on here, I have a point.  I think they do a number of things very well, which in my experience with the Orthodox Church it does not.  I think some of these differences account for why people leave or become disinterested.  What I have seen is the following in the Orthodox Church:

- The expectation that children are essentially small adults as it relates to services, and a very low level of quality of educational material geared towards the young.
- An appallingly low level of basic Biblical knowledge (aside from those who are of the intellectual-read-myself-into-Orthodoxy type).
- Very few if any types of activities outside of the liturgy geared towards building religious awareness, spiritual growth and fostering building a community of faith.

I'm sure I could think of others if I tried.  I'm sure there are various reasons people leave, and as I've said disinterest and apathy are probably two big ones, but I believe for many there is a good chance Orthodoxy fails to address their needs or their lives in a meaningful way.  That is how I think Orthodoxy becomes ancestral, it's simply an ethnic tie, or a cultural memory and not a living community, no matter which language is being used.  Kierkegaard since he was mentioned actually made a good point (despite being deeply weird) which I think is somewhat related.  He said that as soon as Christianity stops being counter cultural, it loses its vitality and purpose.  He said this while surveying the state Lutheran church of Denmark, but the principle holds.  The term he used IIRC was "Christendom as the enemy of Christianity".  I think that's what Ancestral Orthodoxy is all about - a forma set of routines, a political or national identity, an institution like a museum one visits and lives in the past within.  Etc.
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« Reply #108 on: December 27, 2007, 08:16:18 PM »

Right, but that sort of indicates that they would not be apathetic about their faith or disinterested in religion if they became dedicated members of other churches.  Overall, I would wager the majority of people who leave the church do not become dedicated members of other churches, though some might.  Language I'm sure is an issue, but it doesn't explain everything.  I have a co-worker whose wife is Orthodox and whose family attends an all English OCA church.  She goes maybe once a year, and they've made no attempt to take their kids to religious education.  I have another co-worker who doesn't like to drive to his parish so only goes once every couple of months.  My own parish, which is nearly all English aside from some hymns here and there, has lots of people who only show up for Easter and Christmas, and others who never come at all.

I agree that English should be the language of the liturgy in this country (assuming it is the first language of the people participating in the liturgy).  That in and of itself doesn't explain why the church isn't growing more or why some people continue to leave.

I don't think they are apathetic about Orthodoxy. Some have good memories of growing up Orthodox but others do not. The problem is the parishes they grew up in never ministered to them because most of the parishes were originally set-up to minister to the needs of the immigrant. And, unfortunately many of their immigrant parents, like my own grandparents were unable to transfer the knowledge of their faith to their children. The only thing that kept my dad in the faith was his desire to meet an Arab-American wife. For faith to become one's own requires understanding gained through knowledge and then some type of revelation of the Holy Spirit to seal one's heart to the faith. Ideally, this would happen when one is a teenager or young adult. For me it happened when I was fourteen. The parish I belonged to was a mixture of various  Orthodox ethnicities with a priest who was formerly Roman Catholic. Week after week we attended his Bible Study, which was in reality an Orthodox catechism class for the whole family. After a year of his Bible Studies and hearing the services in English we were primed. Then this particular priest took a group of us teens to a Russian skete that was no longer in use by monastics, for a retreat. During that retreat he taught us how to do the Jesus prayer and everyone of us experienced the presence of the Holy Spirit to varying degrees while we were there. It was the clincher for all of us....and all of us from that original group have remained Orthodox. Two of the fellows from that group are now priests.
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« Reply #109 on: December 27, 2007, 08:34:31 PM »

That is what I'm getting at and the types of things you're mentioning could indeed become problems.
Using English is not the answer to the whole problem but it is the place to start.

Quote
One thing I regret in this thread is that I made a comparison between supporting a full recension based on the traditions of a particular church and aiming services at a least common denominator type congregation which minimizes things and aims for a more Protestant or minimalist like atmosphere.  I regret it because it was probably a stupid and unfair comparison, and there's no reason to use the wording of "Byzantinized Methodist Meeting" that I did.  I'm kicking myself now.

One thing that has annoyed me, past and present, is the potshots people like to take at other groups.  Protestants (and there is no one exact type) seem to be on the receiving end in a few threads I've read recently.  I'm not just babbling on here, I have a point.  I think they do a number of things very well, which in my experience with the Orthodox Church it does not.  I think some of these differences account for why people leave or become disinterested.  What I have seen is the following in the Orthodox Church:

- The expectation that children are essentially small adults as it relates to services, and a very low level of quality of educational material geared towards the young.
- An appallingly low level of basic Biblical knowledge (aside from those who are of the intellectual-read-myself-into-Orthodoxy type).
- Very few if any types of activities outside of the liturgy geared towards building religious awareness, spiritual growth and fostering building a community of faith.

I agree. I think it is best to not judge other Christian denominations because while I believe we have the fullness of faith we have no idea how many will be saved outside of Orthodoxy. Their worship and doctrines are lacking or heretical but the mere fact that many of them take care of those in need may be the source of their salvation...especially since we aren't there as a witness of the faith for them. We Orthodox should be shaking in our boots right now. We have everything but we have buried our talents in the ground for safe keeping.

Quote
I'm sure I could think of others if I tried.  I'm sure there are various reasons people leave, and as I've said disinterest and apathy are probably two big ones, but I believe for many there is a good chance Orthodoxy fails to address their needs or their lives in a meaningful way.  That is how I think Orthodoxy becomes ancestral, it's simply an ethnic tie, or a cultural memory and not a living community, no matter which language is being used.  Kierkegaard since he was mentioned actually made a good point (despite being deeply weird) which I think is somewhat related.  He said that as soon as Christianity stops being counter cultural, it loses its vitality and purpose.  He said this while surveying the state Lutheran church of Denmark, but the principle holds.  The term he used IIRC was "Christendom as the enemy of Christianity".  I think that's what Ancestral Orthodoxy is all about - a forma set of routines, a political or national identity, an institution like a museum one visits and lives in the past within.  Etc.
A good number of them were lost in the first generation, when English was not commonly used. You are right on when you say many view it as a museum. How many times have I heard the children of the immigrants refer to it as "my grandmother's church." Ownership was for the immigrant. And unfortunately, they didn't know how to transfer it on to the next generation for various reasons.
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« Reply #110 on: December 28, 2007, 12:15:47 AM »

What always mystifies me is how can a family leave the beauty of Orthodoxy and go to Protestantism.  It is dumbfounding.   Its like going from Champagne to light beer.  How in God's name can someone who is strong in the faith reject Orthodoxy for some non Orthodox Protestant sect?HuhHuh?

I'm late coming into this, but what if there is nothing else?  As I've written elsewhere to illustrate some people's situations:

What of a person/family who moved out and away from the cities and the populated areas to find land or start a new life after leaving the "old country"?  They move out to, say, Montana and start a homestead and they are the only people with EO background for hundreds of miles.  There aren't any highways, travel is limited and slow (I'm writing of the 1800's and into the first part of the 1900's here, but even today there are long distances and 2-lane or gravel roads).  But back to the immigrant family.  There's no EO parish or priest for, again, hundreds of miles, maybe not for several states distance.  Their neighbors, the local ranchers or townspeople, the ones they deal with in the day-to-day aren't EO, but might be RC or Methodist or Lutheran. When there's trouble, an emergency or illness or worse, it might be those neighbors or the local pastor/priest who come to help *because they're neighbors*.   Their children grow up speaking English, not knowing the way things were where their parents came from.  Things may be forgotten or fall to disuse.  The next generation marries local people.  With no EO parish, no priest, the people may not so much "leave EO" as take what is available.  Not as a rejection but as finding some community and worship in what is there. 

It is sometimes easy to forget that the travel and communications and opportunities that one might have here and now were no common in centuries past.

Ebor
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« Reply #111 on: December 28, 2007, 01:00:18 AM »

These same people have no idea that they got of the boat and or plane in a country which for over 350 years brutalised, mamed and killed American inhabitants for using bibles. If certain American inhabitants were found reading anything ESPECIALLY a bible their eyes were burned out. If Any of these American inhabitants were found speaking about God or praying to God......Thier tongue was ripped out. Lord have mercy. These American inhabitant were denied any christian right. NO baptism, NO matrimony, NO communion, NO NOTHING.
....

But true!

Not in all times and places was this true by any means.  I'm sorry to disagree, but can you provide source materials to support this assertion applying to (I gather) all persons of African roots, please?

Some slaves were taught to read and encouraged to do so.  For one example there is Phillis Wheatley, who was educated and wrote poetry.  Yes, she was a slave, though eventually freed:
http://www.earlyamerica.com/review/winter96/wheatley.html
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aia/part2/2p12.html

There were African-Americans who were never slaves but born free and for that I offer the case of Benjamin Banneker.  His English grandmother (indentured for a crime) eventually was freed and owned land.  She freed and married one of her slaves taking his name "Banneky".  Their daughter also married a former slave who'd bought his freedom.  Their son, Benjamin, was educated as well as self-taught. He was important for his astronomical observations, his almanacs, his help in surveying the outline of the Federal district that would become Washington, DC, for building the first clock constructed in the colonies and more.  He was never a slave. 
http://africawithin.com/bios/ben_banneker.htm

Denmark Vesey won a lottery and bought his freedom and eventually was a leader of a planned revolt in South Carolina in 1822.  He was executed for this, not for reading or being a Christian.
http://africawithin.com/bios/denmark_vesey.htm

Absolom Jones was the first Black Episcopal deacon (1795) and priest (1802) in the United States. Born a slave, he taught himself to read and had a New Testament.  Upon being sold to a person in Philadelphia, he went to night school, worked to buy his wife's freedom and then his own.
http://www.historicalrenewal.com/biographies/bio_AJones.htm

Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson, taught slaves to read and taught Sunday Schools for them.  "Stonewall Jackson: The Black Man's Friend" by Williams and Robertson

It would have to be researched, but the question of *when* laws were passed forbidding slaves to learn to read is an important one.  First, consider that for most of history, most people were not literate, not just slaves.  Then there is the point of: were the laws a reaction to slave revolts such as those of Denmark Vesey and Nat Turner, such that those passing the laws did so to try and prevent futher revolts?

Real history is complex with many factors

With respect,

Ebor

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The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
aserb
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« Reply #112 on: December 28, 2007, 09:04:06 AM »

I'll go one step furtherand tell you the truth. WHy did I leave Orthodoxy or Catholicism.

I had an Orthodox father and Catholic mother. I was raised Catholic, but attended Orthodox liturgy mostly on feast days. My parents were both nominal when it came to religion; however, my grandparents and some of my aunts and uncles were pious (It's their prayers I credit with my return to Orthodoxy as an adult.)  My parents were first generation. The WW II generation of immigrants were rushing to become American in every way. They wanted to "fit in." English only (except church), American lifestyles, clothes, music - - my mother worked part time outside the home. The 2nd generation was raised with this. All my former Orthodox cousins are now Episcopalians. I returned to  Orthodoxy. No big deal to them, they're happy for me.

What did the church do?  My parents didn't have a problem with non-English liturgy. They're problem was with the priests whom they believed to be greedy and distrustful. Now whether that was true or not I do not know. But in those days there was no stewardship. Appeals for money were frequent and a bit tiring. There was also no cathechesis in those days. You were Orthodox because that's what you've been for millenia. America was a diverse country with many non-Orthodox. Many immigrants did not come here to evangelize. Many, like my paternal grandfather, wanted to go back to  Eastern Europe after he made his fortune (relatively speaking) here but a man named Hitler stopped that.

Times have changed. Tamara's example to me shows an involved priest who truly cared about the future 33 generations. Many priests today are so concerned with where the money is going to come from (Orthodox tend to build elaborate temples) to maintain the church that that is all they do - - seek funding.

I have observed empirically that when children have pious parents (regardless of Orthodox or not) that it stands to reason that the children will grow up loving and serving Christ and his church. Not always, I know.  What happened to me? Well, the church was my last refuge and thankfully my pious relatives were praying.

My 2 cents.
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« Reply #113 on: December 28, 2007, 05:56:05 PM »

I was not inlcluding you.

I was only speakng of the protestants that do applaud the crusades which is pretty wide spread. That does not mean ALL protestants.

PS:
When did we become "friends"?

Well, I would hope we are not enemies and it seemed better than "dude"

maybe some far right pro-Israel rapture/tribulation type fundamentalists approve of the Crusades, but most protestants do not - that's what I meant by 47 years - I never heard one protestant praise the Crusades in over forty years - most of them cite the crusades as one of the reasons the Reformation was necessary
« Last Edit: December 28, 2007, 06:00:16 PM by BrotherAidan » Logged
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« Reply #114 on: December 28, 2007, 06:08:17 PM »

Friend can simply be a term of personal regard and doesn't indicate any sort of interpersonal relationship.  The term can be used many ways.  The "Friends of the XYZ Ballet" aren't a bunch of people that know each other and hang out.  Some people call each other "brother", but oddly enough are not actually brothers.

BrotherAidan is using the term because he's a nice person.

That is how I meant to use the term "friend"
and I hope I am nice most of the time   Tongue

in fact I thought or using the term "brother" but thought that actually might offend because I do not actually know you (Amdetsion) (using "brother," to me, might have indicated a false sense of friendship like Elisha was getting at and I certainly don't wish to blur the reality of personal relationships with cyber interaction; although based on their posts, there are some people here that I think I would be friends with if we were neighbors or in the same parish)

Amdetsion, I think there is a little bit of a language/cultural misunderstanding here - I meant no offense. I wanted to communicate that I thought your generalizations regarding protestants needed ammending but also that I was not angry or scolding you (hence the word choice of "friend")
I hope that clears this up!
« Last Edit: December 28, 2007, 06:17:13 PM by BrotherAidan » Logged
Amdetsion
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« Reply #115 on: December 28, 2007, 07:05:16 PM »

That is how I meant to use the term "friend"
and I hope I am nice most of the time   Tongue

in fact I thought or using the term "brother" but thought that actually might offend because I do not actually know you (Amdetsion) (using "brother," to me, might have indicated a false sense of friendship like Elisha was getting at and I certainly don't wish to blur the reality of personal relationships with cyber interaction; although based on their posts, there are some people here that I think I would be friends with if we were neighbors or in the same parish)

Amdetsion, I think there is a little bit of a language/cultural misunderstanding here - I meant no offense. I wanted to communicate that I thought your generalizations regarding protestants needed ammending but also that I was not angry or scolding you (hence the word choice of "friend")
I hope that clears this up!

Clear!

Thank you BrotherAiden...

May God continue to bless us all with His devine love.....Amen

Your Servant
Fr. Deacon Amdetsion
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"ETHIOPIA shall soon stretch out her hands unto God".....Psalm 68:vs 31

"Are ye not as children of the ETHIOPIANS unto me, O children of Israel"?....Amos 9: vs 7
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