The Pope must be commended for his efforts to clean out homosexuals

[Aline]

The Poe must be commended for his efforts in cleaning out the church of pedophiles and homosexuals.
This is a good start but catholics still have a long way to go to come back to the fullness of orthodoxy

 Suspected duplicate account.

[Aline]

This is great move by the Poe whos church hjas been plagued in the past by pedopihiles and homosexual scandals.

It is a good move towards orthodoxy.

http://www.expatica.com/actual/article.asp?subchannel_id=52&story_id=25610

Benedict XVI tightens ban on homosexual priests
23 November 2005

ROME - Pope Benedict XVI has approved an official document that reinforces the Catholic Church's ban on gay priests.

The eagerly awaited document comes in response to a series of sex abuse scandals involving Catholic priests in the United States and in other countries, including Italy, Ireland and Poland.

Posted on the Internet by the Italian religious news agency Adista ahead of its official release at the end of the month, the five-page document addresses "the urgent" issue of homosexuals who wish to join the priesthood.

Noting that the church considers homosexual acts as "intrinsically immoral", "contrary to natural law" and "serious sins" that "cannot be approved under any circumstance", the document reiterates its ban on gays wishing to become priests.

"The church, while profoundly respecting the persons in question, cannot admit to the seminary and to Holy Orders those who practice homosexuality, present deeply rooted homosexual tendencies or support the so-called gay culture," the document states.

Those whose homosexual tendencies are "transitory" - "such as, for example, in the case of an incomplete adolescence" - may still be accepted if they can demonstrate that they have "clearly overcome the problem at least three years" prior to ordination.

The document does not explain how the "transitory problem" may be overcome or how a candidate can prove that he no longer has homosexual tendencies.

Candidates are warned against hiding their homosexuality while spiritual directors are advised not to accept candidates should they have "serious doubts" about their moral rectitude.

Issued by the Congregation for Catholic Education, the document was approved on August 31 by Pope Benedict.

The German-born pontiff has vowed to "clean up" the church since his election last April following a recent scandal in the United States in which Catholic priests were accused of sexually abusing teenage boys.

That scandal, coupled with similar reports of sexual abuse by priests in Ireland, Poland, Britain, France, Austria, Australia and other countries, has seriously tarnished the Church's image.

[zebu]

So.......what's your problem that you need to be so condemning? 

[ozgeorge]

 
As usual Il Papa is completely out of touch with reality.
Perpetrators of child sexual assault are statistically much more likely to be heterosexual. Weeding out homosexuals does not reduce the incidence of child sexual assault.
They target teenage boys because they can psycho-pathologically "justify" their vow of chastity- they haven't had sex with a woman.
I don't know how many times I presented the scientific evidence for this on this forum, but stupidity is a stubborn thing.
As usual, this is a stunt to keep the Catholics happy. Rome can't appeal to people's higher instincts any more, so it appeals to their lower ones- stupidity and prejudice.
Meanwhile, children are no safer because the screening tool isn't screening the perpetrators....But then when has reality troubled the Vatican?

[sohma_hatori]

As usual Il Papa is completely out of touch with reality.
Perpetrators of child sexual assault are statistically much more likely to be heterosexual. Weeding out homosexuals does not reduce the incidence of child sexual assault.
They target teenage boys because they can psycho-pathologically "justify" their vow of chastity- they haven't had sex with a woman.
I don't know how many times I presented the scientific evidence for this on this forum, but stupidity is a stubborn thing.
As usual, this is a stunt to keep the Catholics happy. Rome can't appeal to people's higher instincts any more, so it appeals to their lower ones- stupidity and prejudice.
Meanwhile, children are no safer because the screening tool isn't screening the perpetrators....But then when has reality troubled the Vatican?

I Cannot Agree More!! 

[lubeltri]

George, I strongly disagree with you. Does that make me stupid and prejudiced too? BTW, Your superior and mocking tone is not going to persuade me. I would call it "typical Greek arrogance," but then I'd be doing just what you've done.

[wynd]

23 November 2005

This is not exactly news

[Heracleides]

This is not exactly news

My thoughts exactly when I noticed the date.

[lubeltri]

My thoughts exactly when I noticed the date.

It was kind of strange to see this. And the "Poe" thing is a bit odd too.

[Veniamin]

It is a good move towards orthodoxy.

If all it does is reiterate the pre-existing teaching, is it really a move at all?

[ozgeorge]

If all it does is reiterate the pre-existing teaching, is it really a move at all?

It probably seems like one if you're stupid and prejudiced.

[GabrieltheCelt]

Hey, he told some really great scary stories and all, but who cares what Poe thinks about homosexuals?

[lubeltri]

It is a good move towards orthodoxy.

How about this for a good move towards orthodoxy? I'm sure you EO will appreciate this:



Does that stole look familiar?

BTW, that chair you see in the left is back too!

(the photo on the right was taken on Saturday)

[Pravoslavbob]

It is a good move towards orthodoxy.

In some ways, maybe.  I don't see why someone shouldn't be allowed to be a priest if he's gay.  The point is that one shouldn't be a practicing homosexual.  We all have to fight our passions, with God's help.  If someone had a sexual attraction to ducks, should they be ordained a priest?  I would say sure, if he could keep this attraction in check.

Of course, there is a lot of sensitivity in Catholicism about this right now, because in some parts of North America it seems that there are far too many aggressively homosexual seminarians.  (Lubeltri, please correct me if I am wrong.)  There's also a strange history regarding this in parts of the Catholic world.  I know that in Quebec (which was run like a Jesuit experiment from the early 17th century until 1960) as soon as family members realised that a male child was gay, he was groomed to be a priest(!)  So they have their reasons for this kind of approach.  I hope that they might be able to come to a more balanced way of looking at this kind of thing later.

[Pravoslavbob]

Hey, he told some really great scary stories and all, but who cares what Poe thinks about homosexuals?

No. no, no.  The reference is actually to Winnie the Poe.  JoeS established this in an earlier thread.

[Pravoslavbob]

As usual Il Papa is completely out of touch with reality.
Perpetrators of child sexual assault are statistically much more likely to be heterosexual. Weeding out homosexuals does not reduce the incidence of child sexual assault.
They target teenage boys because they can psycho-pathologically "justify" their vow of chastity- they haven't had sex with a woman.
I don't know how many times I presented the scientific evidence for this on this forum, but stupidity is a stubborn thing.
As usual, this is a stunt to keep the Catholics happy. Rome can't appeal to people's higher instincts any more, so it appeals to their lower ones- stupidity and prejudice.
Meanwhile, children are no safer because the screening tool isn't screening the perpetrators....But then when has reality troubled the Vatican?

This sounds plausible to me, at least in part.  Lubeltri, if you have an argument to make against this, could you present your side of things, or give links to another thread where you provided evidence that contradicts George's POV.  If you feel up to it, no pressure.

[lubeltri]

In some ways, maybe.  I don't see why someone shouldn't be allowed to be a priest if he's gay.  The point is that one shouldn't be a practicing homosexual.  We all have to fight our passions, with God's help.  If someone had a sexual attraction to ducks, should they be ordained a priest?  I would say sure, if he could keep this attraction in check.

Of course, there is a lot of sensitivity in Catholicism about this right now, because in some parts of North America it seems that there are far too many aggressively homosexual seminarians.  (Lubeltri, please correct me if I am wrong.) 

Yes, it was (and still is in some liberal dioceses) a serious problem. One seminary in Maryland used to be called the Pink Palace. Thank God the situation has MUCH improved over the last 20 years. And will continue---the orthodox seminaries are the ones getting vocations.


As for the policy on homosexuality and the priesthood, Rome does not have a problem with seminarians with homosexual tendencies per se. She only wants to screen out those who self-identify as "gay" and those whose homosexuality is so deep-rooted that chastity is a daily struggle for which the priesthood is not a cure. There should be no such thing as a "gay priest"---a Catholic, a priest especially, should not be making a disordered sexuality part of their identity. A Christian's identity is centered around Christ, especially a priest who stands in persona Christi. Attachment to a "gay" identity would be a real impediment to the maintenance of priestly vows of chastity.

[Pravoslavbob]

As for the policy on homosexuality and the priesthood, Rome does not have a problem with seminarians with homosexual tendencies per se. She only wants to screen out those who self-identify as "gay"....

Why?  If you have the whole thing in check, what is the problem?

There should be no such thing as a "gay priest"---a Catholic, a priest especially, should not be making a disordered sexuality part of their identity.

This kind of thing has been discussed ad nauseum on OC.net, but I don't think some homosexuals have much of a choice in the matter.  I would say that the majority of them are stuck with this as being a part of their identity: it's genetic, and  not something they've chosen or have adopted for pathological reasons.  I do believe that a large minority, however, do fit the latter category.

A Christian's identity is centered around Christ, especially a priest who stands in persona Christi.

A person's identity is strongly bound up with their sexuality, if they have a good sense of who they are.  (I don't mean that the sexualilty has to be expressed in sexual acts.)  So the first kind of homosexual I talked about, if honest or not naive about who they are, would have a difficult time denying their gay orientation. 

Attachment to a "gay" identity would be a real impediment to the maintenance of priestly vows of chastity.

Forgive me, but you sound a lot like the official mouthpiece of the Vatican here.  I don't see how this follows, anymore than having an attachment to a heterosexual identity would be a real impediment to the vows of chastity.  I think people should be honest about who they are, while working to control their passions, whatever they might be.  If you are not honest about your orientation, then smothering it is not going to make you a healthy person.  I think that the approach of the Vatican here could be interpreted as being rather aggressive and only encourage postulants to hide their true inclinations, which I don't think is healthy.  If you're gay, you're gay.  Whatever.  Just admit it and keep your passions in check.  Same thing if you're hetero.

Certainly, attachment to the accoutrements of certain lewd gay cultures can't be tolerated among seminarians, any more than attachment to lewd elements of heterosexual cultures should be tolerated among straight seminarians.  I sense that this is what you mean, in part, when you say that there should be no such thing as a "gay priest." 

[Pravoslavbob]

A Christian's identity is centered around Christ, especially a priest who stands in persona Christi.

This is interesting, but I don't think it carries a lot of weight.  I presume this is one way of expanding on what you have said here:  since Christ is heterosexual, a priest cannot be homosexual.  I don't see it that way.  I think a whole bunch of things go into someone's sexual identity.  No one is "100 % gay" or "100 % straight".  No human is pure substance.  We have lots of things that make up our identity....

Come to think of it, if I were to expand more fully on your statement, you are saying that a homosexual person can't really be a Christian.  Am I  correct in this assumption?  Just someone with admitted "homosexual tendencies", someone who is only "40 % gay", let's say, can be a "real" Christian?  This doesn't seem right to me at all, for various reasons.

[stanley123]

The Poe must be commended for his efforts in cleaning out the church of pedophiles and homosexuals.
This is a good start but catholics still have a long way to go to come back to the fullness of orthodoxy

I am thoroughly disgusted about what I have been reading in the newspapers and on the internet, etc., and it looks to me like this problem in the RCC goes way up and is not restricted to a few priests.

[ignatius]

You know I'm still Catholic. I haven't entered into Holy Orthodoxy through Chrismation yet.

I honestly love Pope Benedict XVI and continue to have deep affection for Roman Catholicism. I'm not entering Orthodoxy because I hate Roman Catholicism, I'm entering into Orthodoxy because I honestly believe it holds the truth of our Faith in Tradition more fully. Reading so many negative posts about Rome doesn't make me more comfortable entering Orthodoxy. I see it as a sign that a lot of people never allow Orthodoxy to heal them from the wounds the received in the world and maybe even in the world within the Roman Catholic Church.

Where is the peace and healing promised through the mysteries of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church?

Secularism will enter Christ's Church, I have not doubts. I only hope we are not so blinded by our own arrogance to see it in our midst and reject it.

I'm troubled by this thread and some of the attitudes of some on it. I wish we could speak with greater peace, confidence and kindness.

I always get the feeling some have to establish themselves at the cost of charity toward others. That is just plain sad.

[Pravoslavbob]

Where is the peace and healing promised through the mysteries of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church?

I'm troubled by this thread and some of the attitudes of some on it. I wish we could speak with greater peace, confidence and kindness.

First of all, I apologise if any of my posts have offended you.

I agree that sometimes we speak more vehemently here than is sometimes necessary.  You are right about that.

But in other ways, I think that in all honesty, you have to realise that this is a forum for debate, and people will adopt a debating posture at times. 

You should remember that people here have come from various backgrounds and have had various experiences.  I also have a great affection for Roman Catholicism.  I was going to become Roman Catholic for 2 years before I found Orthodoxy. 

Have you read the book "The Orthodox Church" by Timothy (Metropolitan Kallistos) Ware?  At one point in this book he underlines at one point that people don't realise the deep misgivings that the Orthodox can still have about Roman Catholicism because of things that have happened in history, and IMV, unfortunately, continue to happen today to some extent.  And Metropolitan Kallistos is known for his irenic stance in ecumenical encounters!  There is a lot of Orthodox paranoia about the Roman Church too, that is just part of human sinfulness, unfortunately, and for which there is no excuse.  The Church is made up of all too human components. 

Sometimes a more polemical tone might be necessary in order to better establish positions, particularly in light of the currently fashionable ecumenical view that "underneath it all, we're all the same."  Well, Christians of various confessions do have lots that they share, but unfortunately, the Orthodox believe that there are a lot of things that divide them as well.  Again, you are right that there is no excuse for a vitriolic tone, but sometimes it is necessary to adopt a more forthright stance in order to make clear our unfortunate differences.  The Orthodox find themselves alone, in many ways, in thinking it necessary to underline differences today.  Our view of what constitutes the Church shares many things in common with the Roman Catholic view, but holds other things differently too.  The trouble is that many Roman Catholics don't acknowledge this.  They think that the Orthodox are just the same as them, except that they need to accept the authority of the Pope.  The Orthodox find themselves isolated, being the only major Christian confession holding to a more "exclusive" view of ecclesiology nowadays. 

I would encourage you to check out various other discussions that have transpired over the years hear at OC.net..... if you realise that you will encounter threads much more polemical in tone than this one and won't mind that, that is.  I'm kind of surprised that this thread affected you that much, compared to what has been written in the past.  Anyway, you could try the tag "ecclesiology" or "celibacy" and see where it gets you.

I'm sure that you have been to RC forums on the net.  I've never visited them myself, but I understand that Orthodox posters aren't exactly treated with the greatest of charity there either at times.  But I know that your post is not about one-upmanship.  You expect there to be a higher level of peace, decorum, etc. to be found here, because after all, we are Orthodox.  Well, unfortunately,the Church is made up of a lot of fallible human beings.  And the devil likes to stir things up whenever he can.  Try to remember also that we would be a different bunch of folks if we were all meeting together at a conference or something.  I know that when I meet Roman and Byzantine Catholics in person, we can have some great discussions that can get difficult, but really relate well to each other as people and have genuine Christian concern for each other too.  The internet is a really limited place in terms of being able to encounter the real person.  I think that if many of us who write here could meet in person, we would be able to laugh about the polemical stance we have sometimes held here online.

Be that as it may, I ask your forgiveness again if I have offended you.

[ignatius]

Grace and Peace Pravoslavbob,

Yes, that is the kindness I like to encounter. You have a great deal of good point for consideration. I'm just really sensitive to this kind of stuff. It makes me feel defensive for Roman Catholicism. Like someone is beating up on your mother or something like that. I can't help it. It's just how I feel inside. I really have a great deal of affection for Pope Benedict XVI and honestly have a great deal of sympathy for Rome's struggle with everything that is against them. I don't want to be hateful toward Rome. I just want to practice my Faith and seek God's good pleasure. I want to be salt and light...

This stuff just confuses me somethings and I just don't like encountering it. I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings or anything I just wish we could spend more time on more constructive pursuits.

Thanks for explaining though. It helps. I'm not trying to be critical of anyone.

[stanley123]

I'm sure that you have been to RC forums on the net.  I've never visited them myself, but I understand that Orthodox posters aren't exactly treated with the greatest of charity there either at times.  But I know that your post is not about one-upmanship.  You expect there to be a higher level of peace, decorum, etc. to be found here, because after all, we are Orthodox.  Well, unfortunately,the Church is made up of a lot of fallible human beings.  And the devil likes to stir things up whenever he can.  Try to remember also that we would be a different bunch of folks if we were all meeting together at a conference or something.  I know that when I meet Roman and Byzantine Catholics in person, we can have some great discussions that can get difficult, but really relate well to each other as people and have genuine Christian concern for each other too.  The internet is a really limited place in terms of being able to encounter the real person.  I think that if many of us who write here could meet in person, we would be able to laugh about the polemical stance we have sometimes held here online.

Be that as it may, I ask your forgiveness again if I have offended you.

Thank you for your charity and expressions here.
For my part, nothing you have said has offended me at all, quite the contrary, I have been learning and have been positively impacted and helped  by much of what you and others have written.

[Pravoslavbob]

It makes me feel defensive for Roman Catholicism. Like someone is beating up on your mother or something like that. I can't help it. It's just how I feel inside. I really have a great deal of affection for Pope Benedict XVI and honestly have a great deal of sympathy for Rome's struggle with everything that is against them.

This really makes sense to me.  Thanks a lot.    I used to feel the same way when I was first interested in Orthodoxy and criticism of Catholicism kind of stung me.  I can only imagine that these feelings must be stronger for a cradle Catholic!

This stuff just confuses me somethings and I just don't like encountering it. I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings or anything I just wish we could spend more time on more constructive pursuits.

Thanks for explaining though. It helps. I'm not trying to be critical of anyone.

Thanks to you for explaining too.

[Pravoslavbob]

Thank you for your charity and expressions here.
For my part, nothing you have said has offended me at all, quite the contrary, I have been learning and have been positively impacted and helped  by much of what you and others have written.

Thank you very much Stanley.  It's very gratifying for me to read your post.  Kind of makes me speechless, actually.  lol.   

[Pravoslavbob]

Lubeltri,

I apologise if I have seemed too pugnacious to you here as well.  If you want to, I'd like to see how you reply to my questions.  Perhaps we will not agree or understand each other's positions, but we can always see.

[JoeS]

You know I'm still Catholic. I haven't entered into Holy Orthodoxy through Chrismation yet.

I honestly love Pope Benedict XVI and continue to have deep affection for Roman Catholicism. I'm not entering Orthodoxy because I hate Roman Catholicism, I'm entering into Orthodoxy because I honestly believe it holds the truth of our Faith in Tradition more fully. Reading so many negative posts about Rome doesn't make me more comfortable entering Orthodoxy. I see it as a sign that a lot of people never allow Orthodoxy to heal them from the wounds the received in the world and maybe even in the world within the Roman Catholic Church.

Where is the peace and healing promised through the mysteries of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church?

Secularism will enter Christ's Church, I have not doubts. I only hope we are not so blinded by our own arrogance to see it in our midst and reject it.

I'm troubled by this thread and some of the attitudes of some on it. I wish we could speak with greater peace, confidence and kindness.

I always get the feeling some have to establish themselves at the cost of charity toward others. That is just plain sad.

You me both - I also feel the same way about my former years as a Roman Catholic. However, I saw many changes that disturbed me to no end in my parish and also in neighboring parishes in the late 60's 70's and continued into the 80's.  I have great affection for the preVATII church but I honestly feel nothing about this new church that I fell away from.  Im Orthodox and Catholic too boot, I have the fullness of faith and never looking back.

[ChristusDominus]

You know I'm still Catholic. I haven't entered into Holy Orthodoxy through Chrismation yet.

I honestly love Pope Benedict XVI and continue to have deep affection for Roman Catholicism. I'm not entering Orthodoxy because I hate Roman Catholicism, I'm entering into Orthodoxy because I honestly believe it holds the truth of our Faith in Tradition more fully. Reading so many negative posts about Rome doesn't make me more comfortable entering Orthodoxy. I see it as a sign that a lot of people never allow Orthodoxy to heal them from the wounds the received in the world and maybe even in the world within the Roman Catholic Church.

Where is the peace and healing promised through the mysteries of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church?

Secularism will enter Christ's Church, I have not doubts. I only hope we are not so blinded by our own arrogance to see it in our midst and reject it.

I'm troubled by this thread and some of the attitudes of some on it. I wish we could speak with greater peace, confidence and kindness.

I always get the feeling some have to establish themselves at the cost of charity toward others. That is just plain sad.

Great post and I share your sentiments.

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