Author Topic: origen of alexandria: heretic?  (Read 2651 times)

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Offline Daedelus1138

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origen of alexandria: heretic?
« on: April 26, 2013, 09:25:21 AM »
   Is Origen of Alexandria a heretic?  My understanding was some of his works were deemed heretical, but that he himself was not anathematized.   It would seem strange to anathematize someone whom many Fathers respected.

  In Protestant traditions Origen sometimes is referenced, especially his theodicy.  And he's also sometimes used by the more liberally minded to point out the place of allegory in early Christian exegesis:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2010/jun/10/origen-christianity-philosophy

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Re: origen of alexandria: heretic?
« Reply #1 on: April 26, 2013, 09:31:30 AM »
Origen was obviously very influential to Christian theology and spirituality. He was widely admired. For instance, Sts. Basil and Gregory Nazianzen compiled a Philokalia of writings of his that they deemed edifying. The ideas he was condemned for (look for Justinian's anathemas) seem to mainly be some excessive Platonic imports. I'm not sure how clearly he was personally anathematized, but it was certainly taken that way after the Fifth Ecumenical Council by many. For instance, at his trial, when St. Maximus the Confessor was asked if he was an Origenist, he immediately said "Anathema to Origen."

Offline Cyrillic

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Re: origen of alexandria: heretic?
« Reply #2 on: April 26, 2013, 12:48:32 PM »
It would seem strange to anathematize someone whom many Fathers respected.

What about Apollinaris of Laodicea?
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Offline Nicene

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Re: origen of alexandria: heretic?
« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2013, 02:01:17 PM »
He taught some wrong things, like universal salvation if I recall or the pre existence of souls.
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Offline recent convert

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Re: origen of alexandria: heretic?
« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2013, 02:49:07 PM »
Origen, a truly compassionate & conscientious theologian, was anathematized by the emperor St. Justinian  ::) (who burned Manicheans alive left on ships adrift at sea, as noted by author: Harry J Magoulias in: "Byzantine Christianity: Emperor, Church, & the WEst). This is something I recommend just taking an aspirin to relieve a given headache of & not to become bothered by. Also remain an admirer of Origen if you like; I do.  ;)   


Also, Origen's father is a saint:   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Leonides
« Last Edit: April 26, 2013, 02:51:12 PM by recent convert »
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Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: origen of alexandria: heretic?
« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2013, 03:24:32 PM »
Origin was a pretty cool guy.

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Re: origen of alexandria: heretic?
« Reply #6 on: April 26, 2013, 04:11:59 PM »
It looks as if OC.net hath spaketh and anathematized the anathema!
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: origen of alexandria: heretic?
« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2013, 06:41:17 PM »
Origin was a pretty cool guy.



When did this happen in gold foil, faux or fact?
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Re: origen of alexandria: heretic?
« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2013, 10:04:16 PM »
The website of the artist who originally painted it was posted here a few months ago, which had the high def image.

I was bummed and glad at the same time.
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: origen of alexandria: heretic?
« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2013, 11:11:50 PM »
Origen, a truly compassionate & conscientious theologian, was anathematized by the emperor St. Justinian  ::) (who burned Manicheans alive left on ships adrift at sea, as noted by author: Harry J Magoulias in: "Byzantine Christianity: Emperor, Church, & the WEst). This is something I recommend just taking an aspirin to relieve a given headache of & not to become bothered by. Also remain an admirer of Origen if you like; I do.  ;)   


Also, Origen's father is a saint:   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Leonides

St. Justinian was totally awesome.
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: origen of alexandria: heretic?
« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2013, 11:12:32 PM »
It looks as if OC.net hath spaketh and anathematized the anathema!

No surprise there...  ::)
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Re: origen of alexandria: heretic?
« Reply #11 on: April 27, 2013, 01:08:04 AM »
emperor St. Justinian  ::) (who burned Manicheans alive left on ships adrift at sea, as noted by author: Harry J Magoulias in: "Byzantine Christianity: Emperor, Church, & the WEst).
Source was probably Procopius's Wars of Justinian;)
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Re: origen of alexandria: heretic?
« Reply #12 on: April 27, 2013, 05:11:09 AM »
Origen, a truly compassionate & conscientious theologian, was anathematized by the emperor St. Justinian  ::) (who burned Manicheans alive left on ships adrift at sea, as noted by author: Harry J Magoulias in: "Byzantine Christianity: Emperor, Church, & the WEst). This is something I recommend just taking an aspirin to relieve a given headache of & not to become bothered by. Also remain an admirer of Origen if you like; I do.  ;)   


Also, Origen's father is a saint:   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Leonides

St. Justinian was totally awesome.

Yeah, aphtartodocetism totally rocks.
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: origen of alexandria: heretic?
« Reply #13 on: April 27, 2013, 04:39:20 PM »
Origen, a truly compassionate & conscientious theologian, was anathematized by the emperor St. Justinian  ::) (who burned Manicheans alive left on ships adrift at sea, as noted by author: Harry J Magoulias in: "Byzantine Christianity: Emperor, Church, & the WEst). This is something I recommend just taking an aspirin to relieve a given headache of & not to become bothered by. Also remain an admirer of Origen if you like; I do.  ;)   


Also, Origen's father is a saint:   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Leonides

St. Justinian was totally awesome.

Yeah, aphtartodocetism totally rocks.

That he ever advanced apthartodocetism is very debatable.
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Offline Daedelus1138

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Re: origen of alexandria: heretic?
« Reply #14 on: April 27, 2013, 09:41:27 PM »
  This doesn't surprise me... Justinian was an aggressive individual, and his anathema of Origen and univesal reconciliation is very unfortunate, but i don't think its the last word on things (and I don't believe represents the consensus on Christian theology- I myself believe in conditional universalism).  Nontheless, I do like his hymns in the eastern liturgy. 

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Re: origen of alexandria: heretic?
« Reply #15 on: April 28, 2013, 02:14:21 AM »
  This doesn't surprise me... Justinian was an aggressive individual, and his anathema of Origen and univesal reconciliation is very unfortunate
The former, yes. The latter, well, look at the sort of universalism he specifically condemned.

but i don't think its the last word on things
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Offline Cyrillic

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Re: origen of alexandria: heretic?
« Reply #16 on: April 28, 2013, 05:16:28 AM »
Justinian was an aggressive individual

And also a surpisingly intellectual individual as well.


and his anathema of Origen and univesal reconciliation is very unfortunate, but i don't think its the last word on things (and I don't believe represents the consensus on Christian theology- I myself believe in conditional universalism). 

Well, the anathema against Origen's apocatastasis wasn't at all unfortunate. St. Gregory of Nyssa had a much more nuanced view of the apocatastasis, and IIRC that one isn't anathematised.




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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: origen of alexandria: heretic?
« Reply #17 on: May 03, 2013, 01:02:00 AM »
It's not like the Church tosses out everything Origen wrote. In fact, the only problematic things, IIRC, are those passages where he expresses his weird philosophy. Other works, however, are often read and are very edifying.

Evagrius of Pontus was also anathematized by the Fifth Ecumenical Council, and his works are even more widely read in the Church. They are solid works on prayer and spiritual life.

It was not the Emperor St. Justinian who anathematized, but the Holy Church. If it were only the emperor himself, and he had no authority to do this personally, but even if by force of personality he was able to bend a council to his will, other emperors have done the same thing and their designs have been consigned to the dustbin. The Church cannot be manipulated. Emperors are not all-powerful nor are they immortal.

It is really worth actually getting to know St. Justinian (and the other "controversial" saints, before one slaps a big fat condemnation on oneself by speaking ill of them out of ignorance).
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Offline Daedelus1138

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Re: origen of alexandria: heretic?
« Reply #18 on: May 06, 2013, 10:43:47 PM »
   I actually do like Justinian, but I'm not sure how he is a saint on par with Origen. 

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Re: origen of alexandria: heretic?
« Reply #19 on: May 06, 2013, 10:49:28 PM »
   I actually do like Justinian, but I'm not sure how he is a saint on par with Origen. 

Ah, the wonderful different meanings interpretation gives to words.

You are aware that Origen is not on the Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Oriental Orthodox, or Assyrian Calendars? Last I checked, he wasn't commemorated by the Anglicans/Episcopalians, either, at least not since 1979.
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Offline Gunnarr

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Re: origen of alexandria: heretic?
« Reply #20 on: May 08, 2013, 01:15:18 AM »
Emperor Justinian built a huge church! he is a saint!

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Offline adampjr

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Re: origen of alexandria: heretic?
« Reply #21 on: May 08, 2013, 01:39:49 AM »
In my reading of Origen, I see some platonic influence just as I see it in almost all of the people of the time period. I wonder if his followers perhaps took his views further and that was what led to his condemnation?

Gregory of Nyssa also taught some form of apocatastasis, as does (at least in my reading of the Orthodox Church) Metropolitan Kallistos Ware.

It is quite obvious that many of the Church Fathers are not considered infallible, and Origen doesn't seem that far out when I read him.