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Author Topic: an ex-catechumen comparing the Episcopalian Lent  (Read 3062 times) Average Rating: 0
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Daedelus1138
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« Reply #90 on: April 30, 2013, 09:31:45 PM »

Defining down deviancy is a huge problem indeed and goes hand in hand with defining down the human potential of sanctification. Thus, the focus to feeling good, to getting along, to eschew criticism, to become warm, instead of hot, Christians. I believe the Lord had the last say on this. So, the problem with most "liberal" or "enlightened" Christians is the Lord's promise that He will spit them out. They live in delusion indeed.

  I think sanctification and holiness can coexist in the same individual, simul iustus et pecator .    By whose standards do you judge holiness anyways?  Shouldn't we leave such things to God? 

  There is something to be said for irenicism, moderation, and "getting along"....  Episcopalians are a lukewarm church given to the spirits of the age and going with the flow of the secular world: welcome to the reality of most of the Church throughout history.  It's not like the Orthodox Church didn't have a hugely Erastian influence between Justinian and the Russian Czars.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2013, 09:39:03 PM by Daedelus1138 » Logged
William
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« Reply #91 on: May 01, 2013, 12:18:07 AM »

I believe the Western Rite is certainly trying, but there's a long way to go before the Western Rite is fully equal and viable in its own right. Likewise, it would take a lot of very hard, sincere work to unite any of the Western churches (Catholic, Anglican, etc.) with the Orthodox Church.

  I believe many Christians, East and West, simply do not understand each other or recognize what is right and true in each other... and this is directly the result of the Schism and the polemics that have happened over the centuries, whether it was in the 11th century anathemas or in the Reformation.  Fr. Gary L'Hommedieu really confronted me with this, many of the issues that divide Christians, especially theologically, are rooted simply in stubborn pride.  Perhaps it is a unique gift of Anglicanism to the Christian world.

If you're still wondering why some consider Episcopalians to be "spiritually lightweight," reread this post of yours. More 'traditional' Christians generally do not appreciate being told their sincere convictions for various aspects of the Christian tradition are rooted in "stubborn pride."

Yeah, because arguing over whether or not Christ is in two natures or of two natures is a sure sign of spiritual maturity...

It's more spiritually mature than communing with atheist bishops.

Is it?  How?

One is a betrayal of the catholic faith and one is a defense of it.
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« Reply #92 on: May 01, 2013, 04:32:06 AM »

I'm still interested in knowing what you make of my question about striving to be sinless. I have no idea if you were unable or unwilling to answer the question, or simply overlooked it, but I'd be very interested in a reply. It seems to me (and I worshipped in Anglican churches until in my 20s) that the idea that one should strive to be perfect is extremely unfashionable in Anglicanism. The attitude seems to be that if we can't actually achieve it, we might as well not bother trying in the first place.

James
« Last Edit: May 01, 2013, 04:32:37 AM by jmbejdl » Logged

We owe greater gratitude to those who humble us, wrong us, and douse us with venom, than to those who nurse us with honour and sweet words, or feed us with tasty food and confections, for bile is the best medicine for our soul. - Elder Paisios of Mount Athos
Daedelus1138
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« Reply #93 on: May 01, 2013, 05:42:17 AM »

I'm still interested in knowing what you make of my question about striving to be sinless. I have no idea if you were unable or unwilling to answer the question, or simply overlooked it, but I'd be very interested in a reply. It seems to me (and I worshipped in Anglican churches until in my 20s) that the idea that one should strive to be perfect is extremely unfashionable in Anglicanism. The attitude seems to be that if we can't actually achieve it, we might as well not bother trying in the first place.

  I knew this minister (who was formerly Episcopalian) who was part of a non-denominational charismatic cyber-church and I think he explained it best.   You make Jesus Lord and he gradually goes through your life and helps you find the parts that need healing, but he does this as a friend not a judge.   I've heard similar messages preached at the Episcopal church I am at in RL.

  FWIW, I do often strive to be perfect ... probably too much at times to the point it causes me mental issues.  Different people need to hear different messages.  That's why its about having a relationship with Jesus through the Spirit, not a bunch of rules to follow, which is legalism.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2013, 05:42:45 AM by Daedelus1138 » Logged
jmbejdl
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« Reply #94 on: May 01, 2013, 06:08:55 AM »

 I knew this minister (who was formerly Episcopalian) who was part of a non-denominational charismatic cyber-church and I think he explained it best.   You make Jesus Lord and he gradually goes through your life and helps you find the parts that need healing, but he does this as a friend not a judge.   I've heard similar messages preached at the Episcopal church I am at in RL.
As I'm sure you're aware we tend to see Christ as the Great Physician. I don't think you'll find the idea of Christ judging us for not being perfect (as opposed to willing us and helping us to be perfect) to be common amongst the Orthodox. It's certainly not what I meant when I noted the almost complete absence of striving to be perfect (and I'm talking about us doing our best to follow Christ's example, not about being forced to by others) in my experience of 20+ years worshipping in Anglican churches.

Quote
 FWIW, I do often strive to be perfect ... probably too much at times to the point it causes me mental issues.  Different people need to hear different messages.  That's why its about having a relationship with Jesus through the Spirit, not a bunch of rules to follow, which is legalism.
I don't agree that people need to hear different messages. 'Go and sin no more' and 'be perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect' are quite general and applicable to everyone. Everyone does need to be given different pastoral advice. Everyone does need to be treated as an individual. Everyone needs different help on their journey but that doesn't alter the destination. Everyone cannot strive to be perfect in the same degree or at the same rate, but everyone should be striving as they are able. That's very far from legalism indeed, and its precisely this individual pastoral care that in my experience Orthodox priests excel at and Anglicans do precious little of.

If I went to my priest (or any of the others I know) and confessed some difficulty or failing on my journey I would get advice tailored to my needs and experience tells me it would likely help but if it did not I would return and we would try to find something else that did. Never would I be told, though, that it didn't matter anyway, that I couldn't be perfect so why bother, that I'm only human and we all sin so Christ was happy and approving of me 'just as I am'. All things I've heard from Anglicans both lay and clergy.

One of the greatest failings I see (in my experience) in Anglicanism is that rather than being helped to 'go and sin no more' people are told 'never mind your sins just come as you are'. I know the people who do this think that they are being more loving, but they really aren't. True love does not leave people wallowing in their filth for fear that a helping hand might be wrongly perceived as harsh.

James
« Last Edit: May 01, 2013, 06:10:14 AM by jmbejdl » Logged

We owe greater gratitude to those who humble us, wrong us, and douse us with venom, than to those who nurse us with honour and sweet words, or feed us with tasty food and confections, for bile is the best medicine for our soul. - Elder Paisios of Mount Athos
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« Reply #95 on: May 01, 2013, 06:15:09 AM »

I believe the Western Rite is certainly trying, but there's a long way to go before the Western Rite is fully equal and viable in its own right. Likewise, it would take a lot of very hard, sincere work to unite any of the Western churches (Catholic, Anglican, etc.) with the Orthodox Church.

  I believe many Christians, East and West, simply do not understand each other or recognize what is right and true in each other... and this is directly the result of the Schism and the polemics that have happened over the centuries, whether it was in the 11th century anathemas or in the Reformation.  Fr. Gary L'Hommedieu really confronted me with this, many of the issues that divide Christians, especially theologically, are rooted simply in stubborn pride.  Perhaps it is a unique gift of Anglicanism to the Christian world.

If you're still wondering why some consider Episcopalians to be "spiritually lightweight," reread this post of yours. More 'traditional' Christians generally do not appreciate being told their sincere convictions for various aspects of the Christian tradition are rooted in "stubborn pride."

Yeah, because arguing over whether or not Christ is in two natures or of two natures is a sure sign of spiritual maturity...

It's more spiritually mature than communing with atheist bishops.

Is it?  How?

One is a betrayal of the catholic faith and one is a defense of it.

William, let's not get upset because they distribute their cookies to atheists.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2013, 06:15:27 AM by Cyrillic » Logged

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« Reply #96 on: May 01, 2013, 06:15:34 AM »

 I knew this minister (who was formerly Episcopalian) who was part of a non-denominational charismatic cyber-church and I think he explained it best.   You make Jesus Lord and he gradually goes through your life and helps you find the parts that need healing, but he does this as a friend not a judge.   I've heard similar messages preached at the Episcopal church I am at in RL.
As I'm sure you're aware we tend to see Christ as the Great Physician. I don't think you'll find the idea of Christ judging us for not being perfect (as opposed to willing us and helping us to be perfect) to be common amongst the Orthodox. It's certainly not what I meant when I noted the almost complete absence of striving to be perfect (and I'm talking about us doing our best to follow Christ's example, not about being forced to by others) in my experience of 20+ years worshipping in Anglican churches.

Quote
 FWIW, I do often strive to be perfect ... probably too much at times to the point it causes me mental issues.  Different people need to hear different messages.  That's why its about having a relationship with Jesus through the Spirit, not a bunch of rules to follow, which is legalism.
I don't agree that people need to hear different messages. 'Go and sin no more' and 'be perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect' are quite general and applicable to everyone. Everyone does need to be given different pastoral advice. Everyone does need to be treated as an individual. Everyone needs different help on their journey but that doesn't alter the destination. Everyone cannot strive to be perfect in the same degree or at the same rate, but everyone should be striving as they are able. That's very far from legalism indeed, and its precisely this individual pastoral care that in my experience Orthodox priests excel at and Anglicans do precious little of.

If I went to my priest (or any of the others I know) and confessed some difficulty or failing on my journey I would get advice tailored to my needs and experience tells me it would likely help but if it did not I would return and we would try to find something else that did. Never would I be told, though, that it didn't matter anyway, that I couldn't be perfect so why bother, that I'm only human and we all sin so Christ was happy and approving of me 'just as I am'. All things I've heard from Anglicans both lay and clergy.

One of the greatest failings I see (in my experience) in Anglicanism is that rather than being helped to 'go and sin no more' people are told 'never mind your sins just come as you are'. I know the people who do this think that they are being more loving, but they really aren't. True love does not leave people wallowing in their filth for fear that a helping hand might be wrongly perceived as harsh.

James

POTM nominee!
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Daedelus1138
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« Reply #97 on: May 01, 2013, 10:56:14 AM »

   Honestly I know several Anglicans, mostly clergy, and I've never heard this idea that Christ automatically approves of peoples behavior.  There can be acceptance without approval, I think this is what you are confused about.   
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ialmisry
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« Reply #98 on: May 01, 2013, 11:03:55 AM »

   Honestly I know several Anglicans, mostly clergy, and I've never heard this idea that Christ automatically approves of peoples behavior.  There can be acceptance without approval, I think this is what you are confused about.   
No, it is what the Episcopalians are confused about.
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                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
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« Reply #99 on: May 01, 2013, 11:13:43 AM »

Defining down deviancy is a huge problem indeed and goes hand in hand with defining down the human potential of sanctification. Thus, the focus to feeling good, to getting along, to eschew criticism, to become warm, instead of hot, Christians. I believe the Lord had the last say on this. So, the problem with most "liberal" or "enlightened" Christians is the Lord's promise that He will spit them out. They live in delusion indeed.

  I think sanctification and holiness can coexist in the same individual, simul iustus et pecator .    By whose standards do you judge holiness anyways?
 
God's.
Shouldn't we leave such things to God?
He hasn't been silent on such matters.

There is something to be said for irenicism, moderation, and "getting along"....  Episcopalians are a lukewarm church given to the spirits of the age and going with the flow of the secular world: welcome to the reality of most of the Church throughout history.  It's not like the Orthodox Church didn't have a hugely Erastian influence between Justinian and the Russian Czars.
You should do something about that log.

we have the remedy for our speck
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
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Posts: 37,124



« Reply #100 on: May 01, 2013, 11:14:25 AM »

 I knew this minister (who was formerly Episcopalian) who was part of a non-denominational charismatic cyber-church and I think he explained it best.   You make Jesus Lord and he gradually goes through your life and helps you find the parts that need healing, but he does this as a friend not a judge.   I've heard similar messages preached at the Episcopal church I am at in RL.
As I'm sure you're aware we tend to see Christ as the Great Physician. I don't think you'll find the idea of Christ judging us for not being perfect (as opposed to willing us and helping us to be perfect) to be common amongst the Orthodox. It's certainly not what I meant when I noted the almost complete absence of striving to be perfect (and I'm talking about us doing our best to follow Christ's example, not about being forced to by others) in my experience of 20+ years worshipping in Anglican churches.

Quote
 FWIW, I do often strive to be perfect ... probably too much at times to the point it causes me mental issues.  Different people need to hear different messages.  That's why its about having a relationship with Jesus through the Spirit, not a bunch of rules to follow, which is legalism.
I don't agree that people need to hear different messages. 'Go and sin no more' and 'be perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect' are quite general and applicable to everyone. Everyone does need to be given different pastoral advice. Everyone does need to be treated as an individual. Everyone needs different help on their journey but that doesn't alter the destination. Everyone cannot strive to be perfect in the same degree or at the same rate, but everyone should be striving as they are able. That's very far from legalism indeed, and its precisely this individual pastoral care that in my experience Orthodox priests excel at and Anglicans do precious little of.

If I went to my priest (or any of the others I know) and confessed some difficulty or failing on my journey I would get advice tailored to my needs and experience tells me it would likely help but if it did not I would return and we would try to find something else that did. Never would I be told, though, that it didn't matter anyway, that I couldn't be perfect so why bother, that I'm only human and we all sin so Christ was happy and approving of me 'just as I am'. All things I've heard from Anglicans both lay and clergy.

One of the greatest failings I see (in my experience) in Anglicanism is that rather than being helped to 'go and sin no more' people are told 'never mind your sins just come as you are'. I know the people who do this think that they are being more loving, but they really aren't. True love does not leave people wallowing in their filth for fear that a helping hand might be wrongly perceived as harsh.

James

POTM nominee!
+1
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #101 on: May 01, 2013, 11:15:55 AM »

Quote
Honestly I know several Anglicans, mostly clergy, and I've never heard this idea that Christ automatically approves of peoples behavior.  There can be acceptance without approval, I think this is what you are confused about.  

It depends on what you mean by acceptance.  If you mean it as an acknowledgement that the sin exists, then I agree with you.  If you mean Christ accept's their behavior as somehow legitimate and acceptable, then I would vehemently disagree with you.
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Daedelus1138
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« Reply #102 on: May 01, 2013, 09:58:17 PM »

It depends on what you mean by acceptance.  If you mean it as an acknowledgement that the sin exists, then I agree with you.  If you mean Christ accept's their behavior as somehow legitimate and acceptable, then I would vehemently disagree with you.

  Well, if people actually bothered to read that beautiful blog by Andrew Sullivan rather than fearfully condemn it as possibly some kind of pornography, they would understand what I mean by Jesus absolutely having high standards for sexual fidelity and yet at the same time refusing to condemn actual persons who sin.   Jesus loved high ideals, but he refused to condemn anyone for not living up to them.   That's what I want out of a church, high ideals but also a recognition that God "knows our frame, he remembers that we are but dust".
« Last Edit: May 01, 2013, 09:59:50 PM by Daedelus1138 » Logged
ialmisry
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« Reply #103 on: May 01, 2013, 10:52:54 PM »

It depends on what you mean by acceptance.  If you mean it as an acknowledgement that the sin exists, then I agree with you.  If you mean Christ accept's their behavior as somehow legitimate and acceptable, then I would vehemently disagree with you.

  Well, if people actually bothered to read that beautiful blog by Andrew Sullivan rather than fearfully condemn it as possibly some kind of pornography, they would understand what I mean by Jesus absolutely having high standards for sexual fidelity and yet at the same time refusing to condemn actual persons who sin.   Jesus loved high ideals, but he refused to condemn anyone for not living up to them.   That's what I want out of a church, high ideals but also a recognition that God "knows our frame, he remembers that we are but dust".
Your use of "I", and your protesting too much, indicates your desires aren't so simple.

He didn't condemn.  He also said "Go, and sin no more."
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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