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Author Topic: Indulgences, Temporal Punishment, Purgatory, etc  (Read 175482 times) Average Rating: 5
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elijahmaria
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« Reply #1665 on: April 30, 2010, 06:28:11 PM »

May I have your son's first name? I'll add him to my prayers. I've struggled with faith as well over the last few years.

Francis Barrett is his name.  He struggles with alcohol addiction.

Mary
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« Reply #1666 on: April 30, 2010, 06:59:28 PM »

Didn't the Orthodox church already decree what the faith is in the 7 Ecumenical Council's?



Ecumenism is going to get the best if us if we don't watch out.

We should be having a discussion about the Toll houses and not about this kind of controversial topic, as the Catholic's want us to discuss.

The true Orthodox faith does not believe in a type of Purgatory or Indulgence. If we would look at the three main Fathers of the church, St Gregory the Theologian, St John the Chrysostom and St Basil the Great, they are the main teachers, they will tell us the Orthodox teaching of the matter.

« Last Edit: April 30, 2010, 07:00:55 PM by DeathToTheWorld » Logged

100. Like a bee one should extract from each of the virtues what is most profitable. In this way, by taking a small amount from all of them, one builds up from the practice of the virtues a great honeycomb overflowing with the soul-delighting honey of wisdom.

St Gregory of Sinai
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« Reply #1667 on: April 30, 2010, 08:44:08 PM »

Didn't the Orthodox church already decree what the faith is in the 7 Ecumenical Council's?



Ecumenism is going to get the best if us if we don't watch out.

We should be having a discussion about the Toll houses and not about this kind of controversial topic, as the Catholic's want us to discuss.

The true Orthodox faith does not believe in a type of Purgatory or Indulgence. If we would look at the three main Fathers of the church, St Gregory the Theologian, St John the Chrysostom and St Basil the Great, they are the main teachers, they will tell us the Orthodox teaching of the matter.



This kind of sectarian thinking is not going to serve Orthodoxy well.

M.
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« Reply #1668 on: April 30, 2010, 09:21:14 PM »


We should be having a discussion about the Toll houses and not about this kind of controversial topic, as the Catholic's want us to discuss.

Christ is Risen!

Dear DTTW,

There are already qute a few threads on the toll houses.  Click on the tag "toll houses" at the bottom of the page and it will bring them up for you. 
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« Reply #1669 on: May 01, 2010, 02:52:40 PM »

Didn't the Orthodox church already decree what the faith is in the 7 Ecumenical Council's?

Ecumenism is going to get the best if us if we don't watch out.

We should be having a discussion about the Toll houses and not about this kind of controversial topic, as the Catholic's want us to discuss.

The true Orthodox faith does not believe in a type of Purgatory or Indulgence. If we would look at the three main Fathers of the church, St Gregory the Theologian, St John the Chrysostom and St Basil the Great, they are the main teachers, they will tell us the Orthodox teaching of the matter.


This kind of sectarian thinking is not going to serve Orthodoxy well.

M.

I understand where you are coming from--Orthodox people usually do not take a serious look at Roman Catholic doctrine before dismissing it outright. However, I think it is totally wrong to call this "sectarianism." Your patriarch claims special powers for himself that our patriarchs do not have, such as the ability to speak infallibly ex cathedra. He has untroduced several elements into Christian doctrine that are at the very least highly questionable, and declared that anyone who rejects them is a heretic. Hence, we have stopped listening to him. Who is the sectarian? Do you see where we are coming from?
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elijahmaria
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« Reply #1670 on: May 01, 2010, 03:43:03 PM »

Didn't the Orthodox church already decree what the faith is in the 7 Ecumenical Council's?

Ecumenism is going to get the best if us if we don't watch out.

We should be having a discussion about the Toll houses and not about this kind of controversial topic, as the Catholic's want us to discuss.

The true Orthodox faith does not believe in a type of Purgatory or Indulgence. If we would look at the three main Fathers of the church, St Gregory the Theologian, St John the Chrysostom and St Basil the Great, they are the main teachers, they will tell us the Orthodox teaching of the matter.


This kind of sectarian thinking is not going to serve Orthodoxy well.

M.

I understand where you are coming from--Orthodox people usually do not take a serious look at Roman Catholic doctrine before dismissing it outright. However, I think it is totally wrong to call this "sectarianism." Your patriarch claims special powers for himself that our patriarchs do not have, such as the ability to speak infallibly ex cathedra. He has untroduced several elements into Christian doctrine that are at the very least highly questionable, and declared that anyone who rejects them is a heretic. Hence, we have stopped listening to him. Who is the sectarian? Do you see where we are coming from?

I see what you don't like about the Catholic teachings or at least approximately which teachings are disturbing but I don't see how that can be sectarian, if you use the standard meaning of sectarian as bigoted and exclusionary in a manner very often based in ignorance.

You just said it yourself that many Orthodox simply dismiss Catholic teaching out of hand and do not read carefully or study thoroughly...They claim to but they could not have based on the level of ignorance on display.

That to me is sectarian.

We've come a long way during the second half of the 20th century in terms of the Catholics relinquishing the language of rejection toward Orthodoxy, and with Orthodox scholars and clergy and some monastics actually working to try to grasp the formal elements of Catholic teaching and succeeding, I might add.

I just said somewhere around here that the very best systematic and thorough and historically accurate illumination of the filioque that I've ever seen in simple language has come from and Orthodox layperson.  He would be sneered out of Dodge if he tried to push the issue formally or too publicly...and that is the kind of reaction that I see as sectarian.

There are Catholic clergy and monastics and even our pope who have spent a good part of their life's energy in an effort to grasp the core of Orthodox teaching; they are historically well read; and they are prayerful and holy men.  And there are far more of them than there are of those Orthodox who can make the same claim about their grasp of Catholic teachings.  That's sectarian.

Already sectarian Orthodox are calling Archbishop Hilarion a heretic and lining up the "These MUST be weasel words" ammunition on the firing line just in case some poor Orthodox hierarch might start indicating that at the heart of things we share the same faith.  That is sectarian...to get a jump on things like that in such an aggressive manner...when none of them can really give an accurate accounting of formal Catholic teaching...or history actually.  Bits and pieces and a whole lot of "What he said!!" makes up the majority intelligence of Orthodoxy for the Catholic Church.

I don't say that in anger but I've been at this for more than a dozen years now and I've seen a whole lot more of Orthodoxy than the average Catholic and I am not even a little bit impressed with what I see vis a vis the Catholic Church.  Do I think it is hopeless?...I would not be here if I did!! 

M.



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« Reply #1671 on: May 01, 2010, 04:00:22 PM »

Didn't the Orthodox church already decree what the faith is in the 7 Ecumenical Council's?

Ecumenism is going to get the best if us if we don't watch out.

We should be having a discussion about the Toll houses and not about this kind of controversial topic, as the Catholic's want us to discuss.

The true Orthodox faith does not believe in a type of Purgatory or Indulgence. If we would look at the three main Fathers of the church, St Gregory the Theologian, St John the Chrysostom and St Basil the Great, they are the main teachers, they will tell us the Orthodox teaching of the matter.


This kind of sectarian thinking is not going to serve Orthodoxy well.

M.

I understand where you are coming from--Orthodox people usually do not take a serious look at Roman Catholic doctrine before dismissing it outright. However, I think it is totally wrong to call this "sectarianism." Your patriarch claims special powers for himself that our patriarchs do not have, such as the ability to speak infallibly ex cathedra. He has untroduced several elements into Christian doctrine that are at the very least highly questionable, and declared that anyone who rejects them is a heretic. Hence, we have stopped listening to him. Who is the sectarian? Do you see where we are coming from?

PS: Dear Rufus...Don't get me wrong.  I am not saying that there are no sectarian Catholics vis a vis Orthodoxy.  There are many.  But I am saying that the things you list here are not inherently sectarian nor is the Church at this time taking a sectarian approach to Orthodoxy...There was a time, and not all that long ago, when Orthodoxy was simply rejected outright as heretical by many bishops and that is what they taught their people...Don't even bother looking at Orthodoxy; there is nothing there....That sort of attitude.  But it was attitude born in anger and so it could not survive, and it will not survive.

M.
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« Reply #1672 on: May 06, 2010, 05:24:44 PM »


Have you read many of the white papers written by Orthodox historians, in preparation for the current discussions on petrine primacy...

Christ is Risen!

Greek Bishops and theologians reject any notion of petrine primacy for the Church

“Primacy,” Synodicality and Unity of the Church, Athens, 28 April 2010

http://theorthodoxchurch.info/blog/news/2010/05/primacy-synodicality-and-unity-of-the-church/
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« Reply #1673 on: May 06, 2010, 05:26:01 PM »

Sooooo glad to see that this thread is alive and kicking again! lol
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Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
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« Reply #1674 on: May 06, 2010, 08:01:51 PM »


Have you read many of the white papers written by Orthodox historians, in preparation for the current discussions on petrine primacy...

Christ is Risen!

Greek Bishops and theologians reject any notion of petrine primacy for the Church

“Primacy,” Synodicality and Unity of the Church, Athens, 28 April 2010

http://theorthodoxchurch.info/blog/news/2010/05/primacy-synodicality-and-unity-of-the-church/
Patriarch Bartholomew seemed to be slightly more optimistic than what we read here. I wonder what Patriarch Bartholomew would say about this:
"As the host of the conference Metropolitan Seraphim of Piraeus emphasized in his introduction, “Due to the heretical and blasphemous doctrine of the primacy of the bishop of Rome and the spiritual ramifications which come from it (such as the “infallibility” of the Pope and his autocratic-monarchic despotism over the whole body of the religious community under him), Papism has developed into an autocratic-monarchic system of mystic ideology and perversion of the meaning of the Church. It has proven to be modern Roman-Frank ethnicism (paganismus) in a spiritual disguise, has taken away the mystical freedom in Christ of each of [the Church's] members and has turned out to be the inevitable and fateful cause of the falling away from the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church into hundreds of different heresies, and an insurmountable obstacle to their possible return.”"
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« Reply #1675 on: May 27, 2010, 06:26:24 PM »

wrong thread
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« Reply #1676 on: June 05, 2010, 07:32:36 PM »

Didn't the Orthodox church already decree what the faith is in the 7 Ecumenical Council's?

Ecumenism is going to get the best if us if we don't watch out.

We should be having a discussion about the Toll houses and not about this kind of controversial topic, as the Catholic's want us to discuss.

The true Orthodox faith does not believe in a type of Purgatory or Indulgence. If we would look at the three main Fathers of the church, St Gregory the Theologian, St John the Chrysostom and St Basil the Great, they are the main teachers, they will tell us the Orthodox teaching of the matter.



The problemn (for you) is that some Orthodox believe there to have been Eight and not Seven Ecumenical councils.

I agree with "Ecumenism" for the sake of clarifying what other people really believe and to check and see if we are actually believing in the same thing and just using different ways to express it. aswell as to diffuse sectarian hatred.
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« Reply #1677 on: December 23, 2011, 03:06:25 PM »

CONTEXT NOTE: The following posts originally submitted here: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,41224.0.html  -PtA



The hell-fire of purgation and the fearsome aspect came up out of the people in the Church, laity and clergy, who sought to terrify rather than teach.  

That is not really true.

I am sure that all the Catholics on this Forum who contend so well for their faith are aware of the Jesuit priest Fr Hardon (recently deceased and already on track for beatification.)  Fr Hardon has been one of the pre-eminent apologists of the Catholic Faith over the last 40 years.  His works are everywhere, on EWTN, etc., etc.  Fr Hardon served as a consultant for the drafting of the Catechism of the Catholic Church promulgated by Pope John Paul II in 1992.

He flatly contradicts what you are saying....

"Writers in the Latin tradition are quite unanimous that the fire of purgatory is real and not metaphorical. They argue from the common teaching of the Latin Fathers, of some Greek Fathers, and of certain papal statements like that of Pope Innocent IV, who spoke of “a transitory fire” (DB 456)."

"The Doctrine of Purgatory"
by Fr. John A. Hardon, S.J.
http://www.therealpresence.org/archives/Eschatology/Eschatology_006.htm

Now Fr Hardon is speaking of Latin Fathers, most of whom were bishops and part of the Universal Ordinary Magisterium whose unanimous  teaching is infallible.
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« Reply #1678 on: December 23, 2011, 03:22:22 PM »

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« Reply #1679 on: December 23, 2011, 03:28:27 PM »

This is the traditional image of the RC purgatory that I am familiar with.



« Last Edit: December 23, 2011, 03:36:11 PM by peteprint » Logged
elijahmaria
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« Reply #1680 on: December 23, 2011, 10:57:15 PM »

The hell-fire of purgation and the fearsome aspect came up out of the people in the Church, laity and clergy, who sought to terrify rather than teach. 

That is not really true.

I am sure that all the Catholics on this Forum who contend so well for their faith are aware of the Jesuit priest Fr Hardon (recently deceased and already on track for beatification.)  Fr Hardon has been one of the pre-eminent apologists of the Catholic Faith over the last 40 years.  His works are everywhere, on EWTN, etc., etc.  Fr Hardon served as a consultant for the drafting of the Catechism of the Catholic Church promulgated by Pope John Paul II in 1992.

He flatly contradicts what you are saying....

"Writers in the Latin tradition are quite unanimous that the fire of purgatory is real and not metaphorical. They argue from the common teaching of the Latin Fathers, of some Greek Fathers, and of certain papal statements like that of Pope Innocent IV, who spoke of “a transitory fire” (DB 456)."

"The Doctrine of Purgatory"
by Fr. John A. Hardon, S.J.
http://www.therealpresence.org/archives/Eschatology/Eschatology_006.htm

Now Fr Hardon is speaking of Latin Fathers, most of whom were bishops and part of the Universal Ordinary Magisterium whose unanimous  teaching is infallible.


This is a step too far. 

As far as the fires of love burn the hearts of man...sure...That kind of fire we can talk about.  And it is real and not a metaphor.  I am on fire for the Lord...really and truly, I burn with His love.

C'mon

Besides you know as well as I do that one little priest does not speak for the universal magisterium of the Catholic Church...
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« Reply #1681 on: December 23, 2011, 11:00:14 PM »

The hell-fire of purgation and the fearsome aspect came up out of the people in the Church, laity and clergy, who sought to terrify rather than teach. 

That is not really true.

I am sure that all the Catholics on this Forum who contend so well for their faith are aware of the Jesuit priest Fr Hardon (recently deceased and already on track for beatification.)  Fr Hardon has been one of the pre-eminent apologists of the Catholic Faith over the last 40 years.  His works are everywhere, on EWTN, etc., etc.  Fr Hardon served as a consultant for the drafting of the Catechism of the Catholic Church promulgated by Pope John Paul II in 1992.

He flatly contradicts what you are saying....

"Writers in the Latin tradition are quite unanimous that the fire of purgatory is real and not metaphorical. They argue from the common teaching of the Latin Fathers, of some Greek Fathers, and of certain papal statements like that of Pope Innocent IV, who spoke of “a transitory fire” (DB 456)."

"The Doctrine of Purgatory"
by Fr. John A. Hardon, S.J.
http://www.therealpresence.org/archives/Eschatology/Eschatology_006.htm

Now Fr Hardon is speaking of Latin Fathers, most of whom were bishops and part of the Universal Ordinary Magisterium whose unanimous  teaching is infallible.


This is a step too far. 

As far as the fires of love burn the hearts of man...sure...That kind of fire we can talk about.  And it is real and not a metaphor.  I am on fire for the Lord...really and truly, I burn with His love.

C'mon

Besides you know as well as I do that one little priest does not speak for the universal magisterium of the Catholic Church...

He is not claiming to speak for the magisterium.

He is pointing out historical fact

"Writers in the Latin tradition are quite unanimous that the fire of purgatory is real and not metaphorical."
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« Reply #1682 on: December 23, 2011, 11:12:14 PM »

The hell-fire of purgation and the fearsome aspect came up out of the people in the Church, laity and clergy, who sought to terrify rather than teach. 

That is not really true.

I am sure that all the Catholics on this Forum who contend so well for their faith are aware of the Jesuit priest Fr Hardon (recently deceased and already on track for beatification.)  Fr Hardon has been one of the pre-eminent apologists of the Catholic Faith over the last 40 years.  His works are everywhere, on EWTN, etc., etc.  Fr Hardon served as a consultant for the drafting of the Catechism of the Catholic Church promulgated by Pope John Paul II in 1992.

He flatly contradicts what you are saying....

"Writers in the Latin tradition are quite unanimous that the fire of purgatory is real and not metaphorical. They argue from the common teaching of the Latin Fathers, of some Greek Fathers, and of certain papal statements like that of Pope Innocent IV, who spoke of “a transitory fire” (DB 456)."

"The Doctrine of Purgatory"
by Fr. John A. Hardon, S.J.
http://www.therealpresence.org/archives/Eschatology/Eschatology_006.htm

Now Fr Hardon is speaking of Latin Fathers, most of whom were bishops and part of the Universal Ordinary Magisterium whose unanimous  teaching is infallible.


This is a step too far. 

As far as the fires of love burn the hearts of man...sure...That kind of fire we can talk about.  And it is real and not a metaphor.  I am on fire for the Lord...really and truly, I burn with His love.

C'mon

Besides you know as well as I do that one little priest does not speak for the universal magisterium of the Catholic Church...

He is not claiming to speak for the magisterium.

He is pointing out historical fact

"Writers in the Latin tradition are quite unanimous that the fire of purgatory is real and not metaphorical."

When you read the spiritual writings of the spiritual masters and doctors of the Church it becomes very apparent that the "fire" that one speaks of is a very real burning of love...that is anguish to the soul.

That is the kind of real fire that the majority of writers in the Church have referred to over the centuries.
 
There are some visionaries who claim to have "seen" real hell fire.  That's true but we are told explicitly by the Church that we are no obliged to accept ANY private visions as true.

So can push this line of yours all you want but it does not hold up under any kind of deep or systematic scrutiny.  Your position simply won't hold up.

M.

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« Reply #1683 on: December 23, 2011, 11:16:05 PM »

In the words of St. Bonaventure:

http://agnuz.info/tl_files/library/books/Bonaventure_breviloquium/

CHAPTER 2 - ON THE ANTECEDENTS TO THE JUDGMENT: THE PAINS OF PURGATORYcccxxvi

1.  We shall now consider specific points concerning the state of final judgment: what precedes, accompanies, and follows it. There are two antecedents: purgatory and the suffrages of the Church.

2.  First, in regard to the pains of purgatory, the following must be held. The fire of purgatory is a REAL FIRE, which, however, affects the SPIRIT of the just who, in their lifetime, did not sufficiently atone and make reparation for their sins. It affects their spirit in greater or lesser degree, according as they took with them from their earthly life more or less of what must be burned away.

They are afflicted less heavily than in hell, but more than in the present world; and yet, not so severely as to be deprived of hope and of the knowledge that they are not in hell, although, by reason of the intensity of the pain, they may at times be unaware of it.

By means of this suffering, inflicted by a real fire, the souls are cleansed of the guilt and dross of sin, and also of its sequels. When they are wholly cleansed, they fly out at once and are introduced into the glory of paradise.

3. This should be understood as follows. The first Principle, being first, is supremely good and perfect; and, being supremely good, supremely loves good and abhors evil: for, as supreme goodness suffers no good to remain unrewarded, so also it cannot suffer any evil to remain unpunished. But some of the just die before having completed their penance on earth; and their right to life eternal cannot remain unsatisfied nor their guilt of sin unreproved, lest the beauty of universal order be disturbed. Therefore these must be rewarded in the end, but they must also bear a temporal penalty that fits their guilt and sin.

Now, because actual sin offends God's majesty, damages the Church, and distorts the divine image324 stamped on the soul - especially if the sin is mortal, although venial sin will tend to do the same; and because offense calls for punishment, damage for repair, and distortion for purification: therefore this penalty must be justly punitive, duly reparative, and properly cleansing.
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« Reply #1684 on: December 23, 2011, 11:21:33 PM »

Right-O!!

And the reference to fire here is to the fire that does not consume!

Have you ever seen a real fire like that?

Betcha you haven't...

So we still don't know what we're dealing with do we?

That's what is being talked about.  Something that we know is real because Scripture is real...but we don't have ANY experience of it.

The fire that purifies the soul without consuming it.

You cannot even tell me what the soul looks or feels like...but you'd be one of the first to tell me that it is REAL...

c'mon fellas...Let's get off the hobby-horse.

In the words of St. Bonaventure:

http://agnuz.info/tl_files/library/books/Bonaventure_breviloquium/

CHAPTER 2 - ON THE ANTECEDENTS TO THE JUDGMENT: THE PAINS OF PURGATORYcccxxvi

1.  We shall now consider specific points concerning the state of final judgment: what precedes, accompanies, and follows it. There are two antecedents: purgatory and the suffrages of the Church.

2.  First, in regard to the pains of purgatory, the following must be held. The fire of purgatory is a REAL FIRE, which, however, affects the SPIRIT of the just who, in their lifetime, did not sufficiently atone and make reparation for their sins. It affects their spirit in greater or lesser degree, according as they took with them from their earthly life more or less of what must be burned away.

They are afflicted less heavily than in hell, but more than in the present world; and yet, not so severely as to be deprived of hope and of the knowledge that they are not in hell, although, by reason of the intensity of the pain, they may at times be unaware of it.

By means of this suffering, inflicted by a real fire, the souls are cleansed of the guilt and dross of sin, and also of its sequels. When they are wholly cleansed, they fly out at once and are introduced into the glory of paradise.

3. This should be understood as follows. The first Principle, being first, is supremely good and perfect; and, being supremely good, supremely loves good and abhors evil: for, as supreme goodness suffers no good to remain unrewarded, so also it cannot suffer any evil to remain unpunished. But some of the just die before having completed their penance on earth; and their right to life eternal cannot remain unsatisfied nor their guilt of sin unreproved, lest the beauty of universal order be disturbed. Therefore these must be rewarded in the end, but they must also bear a temporal penalty that fits their guilt and sin.

Now, because actual sin offends God's majesty, damages the Church, and distorts the divine image324 stamped on the soul - especially if the sin is mortal, although venial sin will tend to do the same; and because offense calls for punishment, damage for repair, and distortion for purification: therefore this penalty must be justly punitive, duly reparative, and properly cleansing.
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« Reply #1685 on: December 23, 2011, 11:30:28 PM »

The hell-fire of purgation and the fearsome aspect came up out of the people in the Church, laity and clergy, who sought to terrify rather than teach. 

That is not really true.

I am sure that all the Catholics on this Forum who contend so well for their faith are aware of the Jesuit priest Fr Hardon (recently deceased and already on track for beatification.)  Fr Hardon has been one of the pre-eminent apologists of the Catholic Faith over the last 40 years.  His works are everywhere, on EWTN, etc., etc.  Fr Hardon served as a consultant for the drafting of the Catechism of the Catholic Church promulgated by Pope John Paul II in 1992.

He flatly contradicts what you are saying....

"Writers in the Latin tradition are quite unanimous that the fire of purgatory is real and not metaphorical. They argue from the common teaching of the Latin Fathers, of some Greek Fathers, and of certain papal statements like that of Pope Innocent IV, who spoke of “a transitory fire” (DB 456)."

"The Doctrine of Purgatory"
by Fr. John A. Hardon, S.J.
http://www.therealpresence.org/archives/Eschatology/Eschatology_006.htm

Now Fr Hardon is speaking of Latin Fathers, most of whom were bishops and part of the Universal Ordinary Magisterium whose unanimous  teaching is infallible.


This is a step too far. 

As far as the fires of love burn the hearts of man...sure...That kind of fire we can talk about.  And it is real and not a metaphor.  I am on fire for the Lord...really and truly, I burn with His love.

C'mon

Besides you know as well as I do that one little priest does not speak for the universal magisterium of the Catholic Church...

He is not claiming to speak for the magisterium.

He is pointing out historical fact

"Writers in the Latin tradition are quite unanimous that the fire of purgatory is real and not metaphorical."

When you read the spiritual writings of the spiritual masters and doctors of the Church it becomes very apparent that the "fire" that one speaks of is a very real burning of love...that is anguish to the soul.

That is the kind of real fire that the majority of writers in the Church have referred to over the centuries.
 
There are some visionaries who claim to have "seen" real hell fire.  That's true but we are told explicitly by the Church that we are no obliged to accept ANY private visions as true.

So can push this line of yours all you want but it does not hold up under any kind of deep or systematic scrutiny.  Your position simply won't hold up.


Definitely very odd that the Council of Florence spent 4 months debating Purgatory and the Western side asserting against the Orthodox that the fires of hell are real.     It's an infallible Ecumenical Council (your 17th) if I recall correctly or has it been de-infallilibilised since Vatican II?


"If they have died repentant for their sins and having love of God, but have not made satisfaction for things they have done or omitted by fruits worthy of penance, then their souls, after death, are cleansed by the punishment of Purgatory; also . . . the suffrages of the faithful still living are efficacious in bringing them relief from such punishment, namely the Sacrifice of the Mass, prayers and almsgiving and other works of piety which, in accordance with the designation of the Church, are customarily offered by the faithful for each other." Council of Florence (1438-1443) 

"Among them is also the fire of purgatory, in which the souls of just men are cleansed by a temporary punishment, in order to be admitted into their eternal country, into which nothing defiled entereth. The truth of this doctrine, founded, as holy Councils declare,' on Scripture, and confirmed by Apostolic tradition, demands exposition from the pastor, all the more diligent and frequent, because we live in times when men endure not sound doctrine." Catechism of Council of Trent, The Creed - Article V, Different Abodes Called Hell 

"Prayers for the dead, that they may be liberated from the fire of purgatory, are derived from Apostolic teaching" Catechism of Council of Trent, Prayer 

"We also beg of God that we be not cut off by a sudden death; that we provoke not His anger against us; that we be not condemned to suffer the punishments reserved for the wicked; that we be not sentenced to endure the fire of purgatory, from which we piously and devoutly implore that others may be liberated." Catechism of Council of Trent, The Lord's Prayer, Seventh Petition 

 
"The faithful must be fully aware that sin and its eternal punishment are remitted by the Sacrament of Penance if one makes proper use of it; however the entire temporal punishment is very seldom taken away. This must be removed either by satisfactory works in this life or by the fire of Purgatory after death. The holy Council of Trent in session 6, chap. 4, and canon 30 of the same session teaches this under the heading de Justificatione."
Encyclical of Pope Benedict XIV in Preparation for the Holy Year, 1749 


"1.2. It is a divinely revealed truth that sins bring punishments inflicted by God's sanctity and justice. These must be expiated either on this earth through the sorrows, miseries and calamities of this life and above all through death, or else in the life beyond through fire and torments or "purifying" punishments."
"INDULGENTIARUM DOCTRINA" (Apostolic Constitution On Indulgences) which was solemnly promulgated by
Pope Paul VI, 1st January 1967

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/apost_constitutions/documents/hf_p-vi_apc_19670101_indulgentiarum-doctrina_en.html
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elijahmaria
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« Reply #1686 on: December 23, 2011, 11:37:32 PM »

The hell-fire of purgation and the fearsome aspect came up out of the people in the Church, laity and clergy, who sought to terrify rather than teach. 

That is not really true.

I am sure that all the Catholics on this Forum who contend so well for their faith are aware of the Jesuit priest Fr Hardon (recently deceased and already on track for beatification.)  Fr Hardon has been one of the pre-eminent apologists of the Catholic Faith over the last 40 years.  His works are everywhere, on EWTN, etc., etc.  Fr Hardon served as a consultant for the drafting of the Catechism of the Catholic Church promulgated by Pope John Paul II in 1992.

He flatly contradicts what you are saying....

"Writers in the Latin tradition are quite unanimous that the fire of purgatory is real and not metaphorical. They argue from the common teaching of the Latin Fathers, of some Greek Fathers, and of certain papal statements like that of Pope Innocent IV, who spoke of “a transitory fire” (DB 456)."

"The Doctrine of Purgatory"
by Fr. John A. Hardon, S.J.
http://www.therealpresence.org/archives/Eschatology/Eschatology_006.htm

Now Fr Hardon is speaking of Latin Fathers, most of whom were bishops and part of the Universal Ordinary Magisterium whose unanimous  teaching is infallible.


This is a step too far. 

As far as the fires of love burn the hearts of man...sure...That kind of fire we can talk about.  And it is real and not a metaphor.  I am on fire for the Lord...really and truly, I burn with His love.

C'mon

Besides you know as well as I do that one little priest does not speak for the universal magisterium of the Catholic Church...

He is not claiming to speak for the magisterium.

He is pointing out historical fact

"Writers in the Latin tradition are quite unanimous that the fire of purgatory is real and not metaphorical."

When you read the spiritual writings of the spiritual masters and doctors of the Church it becomes very apparent that the "fire" that one speaks of is a very real burning of love...that is anguish to the soul.

That is the kind of real fire that the majority of writers in the Church have referred to over the centuries.
 
There are some visionaries who claim to have "seen" real hell fire.  That's true but we are told explicitly by the Church that we are no obliged to accept ANY private visions as true.

So can push this line of yours all you want but it does not hold up under any kind of deep or systematic scrutiny.  Your position simply won't hold up.


Definitely very odd that the Council of Florence spent 4 months debating Purgatory and the Western side asserting against the Orthodox that the fires of hell are real.     It's an infallible Ecumenical Council (your 17th) if I recall correctly or has it been de-infallilibilised since Vatican II?


"If they have died repentant for their sins and having love of God, but have not made satisfaction for things they have done or omitted by fruits worthy of penance, then their souls, after death, are cleansed by the punishment of Purgatory; also . . . the suffrages of the faithful still living are efficacious in bringing them relief from such punishment, namely the Sacrifice of the Mass, prayers and almsgiving and other works of piety which, in accordance with the designation of the Church, are customarily offered by the faithful for each other." Council of Florence (1438-1443) 

"Among them is also the fire of purgatory, in which the souls of just men are cleansed by a temporary punishment, in order to be admitted into their eternal country, into which nothing defiled entereth. The truth of this doctrine, founded, as holy Councils declare,' on Scripture, and confirmed by Apostolic tradition, demands exposition from the pastor, all the more diligent and frequent, because we live in times when men endure not sound doctrine." Catechism of Council of Trent, The Creed - Article V, Different Abodes Called Hell 

"Prayers for the dead, that they may be liberated from the fire of purgatory, are derived from Apostolic teaching" Catechism of Council of Trent, Prayer 

"We also beg of God that we be not cut off by a sudden death; that we provoke not His anger against us; that we be not condemned to suffer the punishments reserved for the wicked; that we be not sentenced to endure the fire of purgatory, from which we piously and devoutly implore that others may be liberated." Catechism of Council of Trent, The Lord's Prayer, Seventh Petition 

 
"The faithful must be fully aware that sin and its eternal punishment are remitted by the Sacrament of Penance if one makes proper use of it; however the entire temporal punishment is very seldom taken away. This must be removed either by satisfactory works in this life or by the fire of Purgatory after death. The holy Council of Trent in session 6, chap. 4, and canon 30 of the same session teaches this under the heading de Justificatione."
Encyclical of Pope Benedict XIV in Preparation for the Holy Year, 1749 


"1.2. It is a divinely revealed truth that sins bring punishments inflicted by God's sanctity and justice. These must be expiated either on this earth through the sorrows, miseries and calamities of this life and above all through death, or else in the life beyond through fire and torments or "purifying" punishments."
"INDULGENTIARUM DOCTRINA" (Apostolic Constitution On Indulgences) which was solemnly promulgated by
Pope Paul VI, 1st January 1967

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/apost_constitutions/documents/hf_p-vi_apc_19670101_indulgentiarum-doctrina_en.html


See my note on "real" fire.
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« Reply #1687 on: December 23, 2011, 11:47:55 PM »

The hell-fire of purgation and the fearsome aspect came up out of the people in the Church, laity and clergy, who sought to terrify rather than teach. 

That is not really true.

I am sure that all the Catholics on this Forum who contend so well for their faith are aware of the Jesuit priest Fr Hardon (recently deceased and already on track for beatification.)  Fr Hardon has been one of the pre-eminent apologists of the Catholic Faith over the last 40 years.  His works are everywhere, on EWTN, etc., etc.  Fr Hardon served as a consultant for the drafting of the Catechism of the Catholic Church promulgated by Pope John Paul II in 1992.

He flatly contradicts what you are saying....

"Writers in the Latin tradition are quite unanimous that the fire of purgatory is real and not metaphorical. They argue from the common teaching of the Latin Fathers, of some Greek Fathers, and of certain papal statements like that of Pope Innocent IV, who spoke of “a transitory fire” (DB 456)."

"The Doctrine of Purgatory"
by Fr. John A. Hardon, S.J.
http://www.therealpresence.org/archives/Eschatology/Eschatology_006.htm

Now Fr Hardon is speaking of Latin Fathers, most of whom were bishops and part of the Universal Ordinary Magisterium whose unanimous  teaching is infallible.


This is a step too far. 

As far as the fires of love burn the hearts of man...sure...That kind of fire we can talk about.  And it is real and not a metaphor.  I am on fire for the Lord...really and truly, I burn with His love.

C'mon

Besides you know as well as I do that one little priest does not speak for the universal magisterium of the Catholic Church...

He is not claiming to speak for the magisterium.

He is pointing out historical fact

"Writers in the Latin tradition are quite unanimous that the fire of purgatory is real and not metaphorical."

When you read the spiritual writings of the spiritual masters and doctors of the Church it becomes very apparent that the "fire" that one speaks of is a very real burning of love...that is anguish to the soul.

That is the kind of real fire that the majority of writers in the Church have referred to over the centuries.
 
There are some visionaries who claim to have "seen" real hell fire.  That's true but we are told explicitly by the Church that we are no obliged to accept ANY private visions as true.

So can push this line of yours all you want but it does not hold up under any kind of deep or systematic scrutiny.  Your position simply won't hold up.


Definitely very odd that the Council of Florence spent 4 months debating Purgatory and the Western side asserting against the Orthodox that the fires of hell are real.     It's an infallible Ecumenical Council (your 17th) if I recall correctly or has it been de-infallilibilised since Vatican II?


"If they have died repentant for their sins and having love of God, but have not made satisfaction for things they have done or omitted by fruits worthy of penance, then their souls, after death, are cleansed by the punishment of Purgatory; also . . . the suffrages of the faithful still living are efficacious in bringing them relief from such punishment, namely the Sacrifice of the Mass, prayers and almsgiving and other works of piety which, in accordance with the designation of the Church, are customarily offered by the faithful for each other." Council of Florence (1438-1443) 

"Among them is also the fire of purgatory, in which the souls of just men are cleansed by a temporary punishment, in order to be admitted into their eternal country, into which nothing defiled entereth. The truth of this doctrine, founded, as holy Councils declare,' on Scripture, and confirmed by Apostolic tradition, demands exposition from the pastor, all the more diligent and frequent, because we live in times when men endure not sound doctrine." Catechism of Council of Trent, The Creed - Article V, Different Abodes Called Hell 

"Prayers for the dead, that they may be liberated from the fire of purgatory, are derived from Apostolic teaching" Catechism of Council of Trent, Prayer 

"We also beg of God that we be not cut off by a sudden death; that we provoke not His anger against us; that we be not condemned to suffer the punishments reserved for the wicked; that we be not sentenced to endure the fire of purgatory, from which we piously and devoutly implore that others may be liberated." Catechism of Council of Trent, The Lord's Prayer, Seventh Petition 

 
"The faithful must be fully aware that sin and its eternal punishment are remitted by the Sacrament of Penance if one makes proper use of it; however the entire temporal punishment is very seldom taken away. This must be removed either by satisfactory works in this life or by the fire of Purgatory after death. The holy Council of Trent in session 6, chap. 4, and canon 30 of the same session teaches this under the heading de Justificatione."
Encyclical of Pope Benedict XIV in Preparation for the Holy Year, 1749 


"1.2. It is a divinely revealed truth that sins bring punishments inflicted by God's sanctity and justice. These must be expiated either on this earth through the sorrows, miseries and calamities of this life and above all through death, or else in the life beyond through fire and torments or "purifying" punishments."
"INDULGENTIARUM DOCTRINA" (Apostolic Constitution On Indulgences) which was solemnly promulgated by
Pope Paul VI, 1st January 1967

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/apost_constitutions/documents/hf_p-vi_apc_19670101_indulgentiarum-doctrina_en.html


Thank you for sharing these Father.  One in particular raised a question for me:

"The faithful must be fully aware that sin and its eternal punishment are remitted by the Sacrament of Penance if one makes proper use of it; however the entire temporal punishment is very seldom taken away. This must be removed either by satisfactory works in this life or by the fire of Purgatory after death. The holy Council of Trent in session 6, chap. 4, and canon 30 of the same session teaches this under the heading de Justificatione."
Encyclical of Pope Benedict XIV in Preparation for the Holy Year, 1749

If Purgatory supposedly exists to "cleanse" one's soul, how would "satisfactory works" accomplish this?  This citation only makes sense if seen in the legalistic sense of paying for one's sins, i.e. punishment.  It's a transaction with God.  I can see where the indulgences fit in with this mindset. 
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« Reply #1688 on: December 23, 2011, 11:49:42 PM »

The hell-fire of purgation and the fearsome aspect came up out of the people in the Church, laity and clergy, who sought to terrify rather than teach. 

That is not really true.

I am sure that all the Catholics on this Forum who contend so well for their faith are aware of the Jesuit priest Fr Hardon (recently deceased and already on track for beatification.)  Fr Hardon has been one of the pre-eminent apologists of the Catholic Faith over the last 40 years.  His works are everywhere, on EWTN, etc., etc.  Fr Hardon served as a consultant for the drafting of the Catechism of the Catholic Church promulgated by Pope John Paul II in 1992.

He flatly contradicts what you are saying....

"Writers in the Latin tradition are quite unanimous that the fire of purgatory is real and not metaphorical. They argue from the common teaching of the Latin Fathers, of some Greek Fathers, and of certain papal statements like that of Pope Innocent IV, who spoke of “a transitory fire” (DB 456)."

"The Doctrine of Purgatory"
by Fr. John A. Hardon, S.J.
http://www.therealpresence.org/archives/Eschatology/Eschatology_006.htm

Now Fr Hardon is speaking of Latin Fathers, most of whom were bishops and part of the Universal Ordinary Magisterium whose unanimous  teaching is infallible.


This is a step too far. 

As far as the fires of love burn the hearts of man...sure...That kind of fire we can talk about.  And it is real and not a metaphor.  I am on fire for the Lord...really and truly, I burn with His love.

C'mon

Besides you know as well as I do that one little priest does not speak for the universal magisterium of the Catholic Church...

He is not claiming to speak for the magisterium.

He is pointing out historical fact

"Writers in the Latin tradition are quite unanimous that the fire of purgatory is real and not metaphorical."

When you read the spiritual writings of the spiritual masters and doctors of the Church it becomes very apparent that the "fire" that one speaks of is a very real burning of love...that is anguish to the soul.

That is the kind of real fire that the majority of writers in the Church have referred to over the centuries.
 
There are some visionaries who claim to have "seen" real hell fire.  That's true but we are told explicitly by the Church that we are no obliged to accept ANY private visions as true.

So can push this line of yours all you want but it does not hold up under any kind of deep or systematic scrutiny.  Your position simply won't hold up.


Definitely very odd that the Council of Florence spent 4 months debating Purgatory and the Western side asserting against the Orthodox that the fires of hell are real.     It's an infallible Ecumenical Council (your 17th) if I recall correctly or has it been de-infallilibilised since Vatican II?


"If they have died repentant for their sins and having love of God, but have not made satisfaction for things they have done or omitted by fruits worthy of penance, then their souls, after death, are cleansed by the punishment of Purgatory; also . . . the suffrages of the faithful still living are efficacious in bringing them relief from such punishment, namely the Sacrifice of the Mass, prayers and almsgiving and other works of piety which, in accordance with the designation of the Church, are customarily offered by the faithful for each other." Council of Florence (1438-1443) 

"Among them is also the fire of purgatory, in which the souls of just men are cleansed by a temporary punishment, in order to be admitted into their eternal country, into which nothing defiled entereth. The truth of this doctrine, founded, as holy Councils declare,' on Scripture, and confirmed by Apostolic tradition, demands exposition from the pastor, all the more diligent and frequent, because we live in times when men endure not sound doctrine." Catechism of Council of Trent, The Creed - Article V, Different Abodes Called Hell 

"Prayers for the dead, that they may be liberated from the fire of purgatory, are derived from Apostolic teaching" Catechism of Council of Trent, Prayer 

"We also beg of God that we be not cut off by a sudden death; that we provoke not His anger against us; that we be not condemned to suffer the punishments reserved for the wicked; that we be not sentenced to endure the fire of purgatory, from which we piously and devoutly implore that others may be liberated." Catechism of Council of Trent, The Lord's Prayer, Seventh Petition 

 
"The faithful must be fully aware that sin and its eternal punishment are remitted by the Sacrament of Penance if one makes proper use of it; however the entire temporal punishment is very seldom taken away. This must be removed either by satisfactory works in this life or by the fire of Purgatory after death. The holy Council of Trent in session 6, chap. 4, and canon 30 of the same session teaches this under the heading de Justificatione."
Encyclical of Pope Benedict XIV in Preparation for the Holy Year, 1749 


"1.2. It is a divinely revealed truth that sins bring punishments inflicted by God's sanctity and justice. These must be expiated either on this earth through the sorrows, miseries and calamities of this life and above all through death, or else in the life beyond through fire and torments or "purifying" punishments."
"INDULGENTIARUM DOCTRINA" (Apostolic Constitution On Indulgences) which was solemnly promulgated by
Pope Paul VI, 1st January 1967

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/apost_constitutions/documents/hf_p-vi_apc_19670101_indulgentiarum-doctrina_en.html


See my note on "real" fire.

Devilishly clever!   You've picked up on something which all your Saints and Popes and theologians have overlooked for centuries,  not to mention what we were taught at secondary and tertiary level.
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« Reply #1689 on: December 24, 2011, 01:05:57 AM »

The hell-fire of purgation and the fearsome aspect came up out of the people in the Church, laity and clergy, who sought to terrify rather than teach. 

That is not really true.

I am sure that all the Catholics on this Forum who contend so well for their faith are aware of the Jesuit priest Fr Hardon (recently deceased and already on track for beatification.)  Fr Hardon has been one of the pre-eminent apologists of the Catholic Faith over the last 40 years.  His works are everywhere, on EWTN, etc., etc.  Fr Hardon served as a consultant for the drafting of the Catechism of the Catholic Church promulgated by Pope John Paul II in 1992.

He flatly contradicts what you are saying....

"Writers in the Latin tradition are quite unanimous that the fire of purgatory is real and not metaphorical. They argue from the common teaching of the Latin Fathers, of some Greek Fathers, and of certain papal statements like that of Pope Innocent IV, who spoke of “a transitory fire” (DB 456)."

"The Doctrine of Purgatory"
by Fr. John A. Hardon, S.J.
http://www.therealpresence.org/archives/Eschatology/Eschatology_006.htm

Now Fr Hardon is speaking of Latin Fathers, most of whom were bishops and part of the Universal Ordinary Magisterium whose unanimous  teaching is infallible.


This is a step too far. 

As far as the fires of love burn the hearts of man...sure...That kind of fire we can talk about.  And it is real and not a metaphor.  I am on fire for the Lord...really and truly, I burn with His love.

C'mon

Besides you know as well as I do that one little priest does not speak for the universal magisterium of the Catholic Church...

He is not claiming to speak for the magisterium.

He is pointing out historical fact

"Writers in the Latin tradition are quite unanimous that the fire of purgatory is real and not metaphorical."

When you read the spiritual writings of the spiritual masters and doctors of the Church it becomes very apparent that the "fire" that one speaks of is a very real burning of love...that is anguish to the soul.

That is the kind of real fire that the majority of writers in the Church have referred to over the centuries.
 
There are some visionaries who claim to have "seen" real hell fire.  That's true but we are told explicitly by the Church that we are no obliged to accept ANY private visions as true.

So can push this line of yours all you want but it does not hold up under any kind of deep or systematic scrutiny.  Your position simply won't hold up.


Definitely very odd that the Council of Florence spent 4 months debating Purgatory and the Western side asserting against the Orthodox that the fires of hell are real.     It's an infallible Ecumenical Council (your 17th) if I recall correctly or has it been de-infallilibilised since Vatican II?


"If they have died repentant for their sins and having love of God, but have not made satisfaction for things they have done or omitted by fruits worthy of penance, then their souls, after death, are cleansed by the punishment of Purgatory; also . . . the suffrages of the faithful still living are efficacious in bringing them relief from such punishment, namely the Sacrifice of the Mass, prayers and almsgiving and other works of piety which, in accordance with the designation of the Church, are customarily offered by the faithful for each other." Council of Florence (1438-1443) 

"Among them is also the fire of purgatory, in which the souls of just men are cleansed by a temporary punishment, in order to be admitted into their eternal country, into which nothing defiled entereth. The truth of this doctrine, founded, as holy Councils declare,' on Scripture, and confirmed by Apostolic tradition, demands exposition from the pastor, all the more diligent and frequent, because we live in times when men endure not sound doctrine." Catechism of Council of Trent, The Creed - Article V, Different Abodes Called Hell 

"Prayers for the dead, that they may be liberated from the fire of purgatory, are derived from Apostolic teaching" Catechism of Council of Trent, Prayer 

"We also beg of God that we be not cut off by a sudden death; that we provoke not His anger against us; that we be not condemned to suffer the punishments reserved for the wicked; that we be not sentenced to endure the fire of purgatory, from which we piously and devoutly implore that others may be liberated." Catechism of Council of Trent, The Lord's Prayer, Seventh Petition 

 
"The faithful must be fully aware that sin and its eternal punishment are remitted by the Sacrament of Penance if one makes proper use of it; however the entire temporal punishment is very seldom taken away. This must be removed either by satisfactory works in this life or by the fire of Purgatory after death. The holy Council of Trent in session 6, chap. 4, and canon 30 of the same session teaches this under the heading de Justificatione."
Encyclical of Pope Benedict XIV in Preparation for the Holy Year, 1749 


"1.2. It is a divinely revealed truth that sins bring punishments inflicted by God's sanctity and justice. These must be expiated either on this earth through the sorrows, miseries and calamities of this life and above all through death, or else in the life beyond through fire and torments or "purifying" punishments."
"INDULGENTIARUM DOCTRINA" (Apostolic Constitution On Indulgences) which was solemnly promulgated by
Pope Paul VI, 1st January 1967

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/apost_constitutions/documents/hf_p-vi_apc_19670101_indulgentiarum-doctrina_en.html


See my note on "real" fire.

Devilishly clever!   You've picked up on something which all your Saints and Popes and theologians have overlooked for centuries,  not to mention what we were taught at secondary and tertiary level.

Hardly.  It is what it is.

Real fire, as in burning down the building, burning a soul is stupid to posit.

You cannot even tell me what a "soul" looks like much less how to "burn" it.

Don't try to snow this discussion.

I am right and you know it.

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« Reply #1690 on: December 24, 2011, 01:52:17 AM »

The hell-fire of purgation and the fearsome aspect came up out of the people in the Church, laity and clergy, who sought to terrify rather than teach. 

That is not really true.

I am sure that all the Catholics on this Forum who contend so well for their faith are aware of the Jesuit priest Fr Hardon (recently deceased and already on track for beatification.)  Fr Hardon has been one of the pre-eminent apologists of the Catholic Faith over the last 40 years.  His works are everywhere, on EWTN, etc., etc.  Fr Hardon served as a consultant for the drafting of the Catechism of the Catholic Church promulgated by Pope John Paul II in 1992.

He flatly contradicts what you are saying....

"Writers in the Latin tradition are quite unanimous that the fire of purgatory is real and not metaphorical. They argue from the common teaching of the Latin Fathers, of some Greek Fathers, and of certain papal statements like that of Pope Innocent IV, who spoke of “a transitory fire” (DB 456)."

"The Doctrine of Purgatory"
by Fr. John A. Hardon, S.J.
http://www.therealpresence.org/archives/Eschatology/Eschatology_006.htm

Now Fr Hardon is speaking of Latin Fathers, most of whom were bishops and part of the Universal Ordinary Magisterium whose unanimous  teaching is infallible.


This is a step too far. 

As far as the fires of love burn the hearts of man...sure...That kind of fire we can talk about.  And it is real and not a metaphor.  I am on fire for the Lord...really and truly, I burn with His love.

C'mon

Besides you know as well as I do that one little priest does not speak for the universal magisterium of the Catholic Church...

He is not claiming to speak for the magisterium.

He is pointing out historical fact

"Writers in the Latin tradition are quite unanimous that the fire of purgatory is real and not metaphorical."

When you read the spiritual writings of the spiritual masters and doctors of the Church it becomes very apparent that the "fire" that one speaks of is a very real burning of love...that is anguish to the soul.

That is the kind of real fire that the majority of writers in the Church have referred to over the centuries.

There are some visionaries who claim to have "seen" real hell fire.  That's true but we are told explicitly by the Church that we are no obliged to accept ANY private visions as true.

So can push this line of yours all you want but it does not hold up under any kind of deep or systematic scrutiny.  Your position simply won't hold up.


Definitely very odd that the Council of Florence spent 4 months debating Purgatory and the Western side asserting against the Orthodox that the fires of hell are real.     It's an infallible Ecumenical Council (your 17th) if I recall correctly or has it been de-infallilibilised since Vatican II?


"If they have died repentant for their sins and having love of God, but have not made satisfaction for things they have done or omitted by fruits worthy of penance, then their souls, after death, are cleansed by the punishment of Purgatory; also . . . the suffrages of the faithful still living are efficacious in bringing them relief from such punishment, namely the Sacrifice of the Mass, prayers and almsgiving and other works of piety which, in accordance with the designation of the Church, are customarily offered by the faithful for each other." Council of Florence (1438-1443) 

"Among them is also the fire of purgatory, in which the souls of just men are cleansed by a temporary punishment, in order to be admitted into their eternal country, into which nothing defiled entereth. The truth of this doctrine, founded, as holy Councils declare,' on Scripture, and confirmed by Apostolic tradition, demands exposition from the pastor, all the more diligent and frequent, because we live in times when men endure not sound doctrine." Catechism of Council of Trent, The Creed - Article V, Different Abodes Called Hell 

"Prayers for the dead, that they may be liberated from the fire of purgatory, are derived from Apostolic teaching" Catechism of Council of Trent, Prayer 

"We also beg of God that we be not cut off by a sudden death; that we provoke not His anger against us; that we be not condemned to suffer the punishments reserved for the wicked; that we be not sentenced to endure the fire of purgatory, from which we piously and devoutly implore that others may be liberated." Catechism of Council of Trent, The Lord's Prayer, Seventh Petition 


"The faithful must be fully aware that sin and its eternal punishment are remitted by the Sacrament of Penance if one makes proper use of it; however the entire temporal punishment is very seldom taken away. This must be removed either by satisfactory works in this life or by the fire of Purgatory after death. The holy Council of Trent in session 6, chap. 4, and canon 30 of the same session teaches this under the heading de Justificatione."
Encyclical of Pope Benedict XIV in Preparation for the Holy Year, 1749 


"1.2. It is a divinely revealed truth that sins bring punishments inflicted by God's sanctity and justice. These must be expiated either on this earth through the sorrows, miseries and calamities of this life and above all through death, or else in the life beyond through fire and torments or "purifying" punishments."
"INDULGENTIARUM DOCTRINA" (Apostolic Constitution On Indulgences) which was solemnly promulgated by
Pope Paul VI, 1st January 1967

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/apost_constitutions/documents/hf_p-vi_apc_19670101_indulgentiarum-doctrina_en.html


See my note on "real" fire.

Devilishly clever!   You've picked up on something which all your Saints and Popes and theologians have overlooked for centuries,  not to mention what we were taught at secondary and tertiary level.

Hardly.  It is what it is.

Real fire, as in burning down the building, burning a soul is stupid to posit.

You cannot even tell me what a "soul" looks like much less how to "burn" it.

Don't try to snow this discussion.

I am right and you know it.



We know from the Saints of the West that the fires of purgatory and the pain they inflict are immeasurably worse than any fire and pain we know on earth.   

Why do you have such a mind seemingly quite set against the consistent traditional belief of your sister Church?  What, btw, is the Ruthenian teaching?  The Ruthenian theologian Dragani has adopted the unsustainable position that the Orthodox and the Greek Catholics and the Roman Catholics have a basically identical belief!!   
http://www.east2west.org/doctrine.htm#Purgatory

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« Reply #1691 on: January 29, 2012, 09:03:04 PM »

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« Reply #1692 on: January 29, 2012, 10:34:29 PM »

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« Reply #1693 on: January 30, 2012, 02:51:24 AM »

Besides you know as well as I do that one little priest does not speak for the universal magisterium of the Catholic Church...
Father Hardon is the author of many books on Catholic theology, including his Catholic catechism which was written at the request of the Pope. His Catholic catechism is a rather significant book since it was a precursor to the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Some of his publications include:
•Christianity in Conflict: A Catholic View of Protestantism, Newman Press: 1959
 •All My Liberty, Newman: 1959, rev. ed. 1981
 •Teaching Devotion to the Sacred Heart, Loyola University Press: 1963
 •For Jesuits: 1963
 •The Hungry Generation: Religious Attitudes and Needs in a State University, Newman: 1967
 •The Spirit and Origins of American Protestantism: A Sourcebook in Its Creeds, Pflaum Press: 1968
 •The Protestant Churches of America: 2d ed. 1968, rev. ed., Double Day & Co Inc.: 1981
 •Religions of the Orient—A Christian View, Loyola University Press: 1970
 •American Judaism, Loyola University Press: 1971
 •The Catholic Catechism: A Contemporary Catechism of the Teachings of the Catholic Church, Image: 1975
 •Holiness in the Church, Saint Paul Editions: 1976
 •Religious Life Today, St. Paul Editions: 1977
 •Christianity in the 20th Century, Image Books, 2d. ed. 1972, rev. ed. 1978
 •Salvation and Sanctification, St. Paul: 1978
 •Theology of Prayer, Daughters of Saint Paul: 1979
 •Modern Catholic Dictionary, Doubleday : 1980
 •The Question and Answer Catholic Catechism, Hippo Books: 1981
 •Religions of the World, Image Books: 2d. ed.: 1981
 •Pocket Catholic Dictionary, Image Books: 1985
 •Family Consecration Prayer Book, Apostolate for Family Consecration: 1986
 •The Treasury of Catholic Wisdom, Doubleday: 1987
 •Basic Catholic Catechism: Fundamentals of Catholic Doctrine for Catechists, The Catholic Voice of America: 1987
 •The Catholic Lifetime Reading Plan, Doubleday: 1989
 •Pocket Catholic Catechism, Mass Market: 1989
 •Catholic Catechist’s Manual: 1989
 •The Catholic Answer Book: 1989
 •Catholic Life, Doubleday: 1989
 •Heart of the Redeemer: An Apologia for the Contemporary and Perennial Value of the Devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus, Manassas Trinity Communications: 1989
 •Masters of the Spiritual Life: 1990
 •Great Marian Writers: 1990
 •The Catholic Family in the Modern World, The Leaflet Missal Company: 1991
 •History of Eucharistic Adoration, CMJ Marian Publishers: 1991
 •The Catholic Discovery of America: 1992
 •Memoirs of Fatima: 1992
 •The Real Presence: 1992
 •Retreat with the Lord: A Popular Guide to the Spiritual Exercises of Ignatius of Loyola, Servant Publications: 1993
 •The Faith: A Popular Guide Based on the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Noram International Partners LLC: 1995
 •Catechism on the Gospel of Life, Eternal Life: 1996
 •A Prophet for the Priesthood: A Spiritual Biography of Father Gerald M.C. Fitzgerald, Intermirifica Inc.: 1998
 •Father Hardon’s Catholic Prayer Book, Eternal Life Inc.: 1999
 •Spiritual Life in the Modern World, Eternal Life: 2000
 •Catholic Catechism on the Angels, Eternal Life: 2000
 •A Biblical Defense of Catholicism, 1st Books Library: 2001
 •With Us Today: On the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist, Saint Austin Press: 2002
 •The History and Theology of Grace, Sapientia Press: 2005
 •Meditations on the Angels, Eternal Life: 2006
 Consultor, World Book Encyclopedia
 Consultor, The Catechism of the Catholic Church

Additionally, Father Hardon is up for canonisation, so it is a serious mistake for someone to refer to him "that one little priest."
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« Reply #1694 on: January 30, 2012, 11:21:51 AM »

Stanley, just remember who's calling him "one little priest"... it is someone who struggling to speak (definitively, it would seem) for the "universal magisterium" who is 'one little layperson.'

I, who am quite comfortable with being 'one little priest' certainly would not call Fr. Hardon by such an epithet, and I'm not RC.  As I see it, Mary is not content merely to disagree, but she must insult.  I find this disturbing how she attacks her own brethren when they don't toe her line.


Besides you know as well as I do that one little priest does not speak for the universal magisterium of the Catholic Church...
Father Hardon is the author of many books on Catholic theology, including his Catholic catechism which was written at the request of the Pope. His Catholic catechism is a rather significant book since it was a precursor to the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Some of his publications include:
<snip>
Additionally, Father Hardon is up for canonisation, so it is a serious mistake for someone to refer to him "that one little priest."
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« Reply #1695 on: January 30, 2012, 02:05:19 PM »

Stanley, just remember who's calling him "one little priest"... it is someone who struggling to speak (definitively, it would seem) for the "universal magisterium" who is 'one little layperson.'

I, who am quite comfortable with being 'one little priest' certainly would not call Fr. Hardon by such an epithet, and I'm not RC.  As I see it, Mary is not content merely to disagree, but she must insult.  I find this disturbing how she attacks her own brethren when they don't toe her line.



I have many many friends and spiritual guides who are simple little priests and I love them and they are loving with me.  And they are not at all insulted by being thought of as a simple little parish priest.

How is it insulting to say that none of them singly can presume to speak without failure for the teachings of the Catholic Church?  I am sure all of them would say the same thing...That's how I learned it in fact... Wink
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« Reply #1696 on: January 30, 2012, 02:43:47 PM »

Stanley, just remember who's calling him "one little priest"... it is someone who struggling to speak (definitively, it would seem) for the "universal magisterium" who is 'one little layperson.'

I, who am quite comfortable with being 'one little priest' certainly would not call Fr. Hardon by such an epithet, and I'm not RC.  As I see it, Mary is not content merely to disagree, but she must insult.  I find this disturbing how she attacks her own brethren when they don't toe her line.



I have many many friends and spiritual guides who are simple little priests and I love them and they are loving with me.  And they are not at all insulted by being thought of as a simple little parish priest.

How is it insulting to say that none of them singly can presume to speak without failure for the teachings of the Catholic Church?  I am sure all of them would say the same thing...That's how I learned it in fact... Wink

Bottom line?  Trust no priests in matters of Catholic teaching, not even those who are well educated and highly thought of.

The weird corollary seems to be that there is a laywoman in Pennsylvania (?) who is capable of sorting out their doctrinal errors.  It must be galling for them. A sort of lay magisterium! 
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« Reply #1697 on: January 30, 2012, 03:13:40 PM »

Stanley, just remember who's calling him "one little priest"... it is someone who struggling to speak (definitively, it would seem) for the "universal magisterium" who is 'one little layperson.'

I, who am quite comfortable with being 'one little priest' certainly would not call Fr. Hardon by such an epithet, and I'm not RC.  As I see it, Mary is not content merely to disagree, but she must insult.  I find this disturbing how she attacks her own brethren when they don't toe her line.



I have many many friends and spiritual guides who are simple little priests and I love them and they are loving with me.  And they are not at all insulted by being thought of as a simple little parish priest.

How is it insulting to say that none of them singly can presume to speak without failure for the teachings of the Catholic Church?  I am sure all of them would say the same thing...That's how I learned it in fact... Wink

Bottom line?  Trust no priests in matters of Catholic teaching, not even those who are well educated and highly thought of.

The weird corollary seems to be that there is a laywoman in Pennsylvania (?) who is capable of sorting out their doctrinal errors.  It must be galling for them. A sort of lay magisterium! 


That's right...raise up the Straw Man and then knock him down. 

Trust NO ONE PERSON-NOT EVEN THE POPE-IN MATTERS OF CHURCH DOCTRINE unless it is clear that the point in question is indeed the formal teaching of the Church...

Howzzat... Grin
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« Reply #1698 on: January 30, 2012, 03:16:52 PM »

Quote
I have many many friends and spiritual guides who are simple little priests and I love them and they are loving with me.  And they are not at all insulted by being thought of as a simple little parish priest.

How is it insulting to say that none of them singly can presume to speak without failure for the teachings of the Catholic Church?  I am sure all of them would say the same thing...That's how I learned it in fact...
I think what is being said Maria, is that a priest such as Fr. Hardon, who is used to clarify RC teachings, can not be cast aside when it becomes inconvenient, by playing down their importance.

Example: My priest has never (to my knowledge) published books about Orthodox theology and is, if I can be forgiven, "a simple parish priest". If he said something that was counter to Orthodoxy, it would be nowhere near as earth-shattering as if Fr. Patrick Henry Reardon, or Fr. Hopko did the same thing.

If someone is used to clarify publicly, the RC position on numerous occasions and you disagree with him, you should have your ducks in a row when doing so.

PP
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« Reply #1699 on: January 30, 2012, 05:12:56 PM »

Then please don't be offended if we don't trust you, Mary!    Grin

Stanley, just remember who's calling him "one little priest"... it is someone who struggling to speak (definitively, it would seem) for the "universal magisterium" who is 'one little layperson.'

I, who am quite comfortable with being 'one little priest' certainly would not call Fr. Hardon by such an epithet, and I'm not RC.  As I see it, Mary is not content merely to disagree, but she must insult.  I find this disturbing how she attacks her own brethren when they don't toe her line.



I have many many friends and spiritual guides who are simple little priests and I love them and they are loving with me.  And they are not at all insulted by being thought of as a simple little parish priest.

How is it insulting to say that none of them singly can presume to speak without failure for the teachings of the Catholic Church?  I am sure all of them would say the same thing...That's how I learned it in fact... Wink

Bottom line?  Trust no priests in matters of Catholic teaching, not even those who are well educated and highly thought of.

The weird corollary seems to be that there is a laywoman in Pennsylvania (?) who is capable of sorting out their doctrinal errors.  It must be galling for them. A sort of lay magisterium! 


That's right...raise up the Straw Man and then knock him down. 

Trust NO ONE PERSON-NOT EVEN THE POPE-IN MATTERS OF CHURCH DOCTRINE unless it is clear that the point in question is indeed the formal teaching of the Church...

Howzzat... Grin
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« Reply #1700 on: January 30, 2012, 05:14:25 PM »

I don't think Mary gets this yet.   Shocked

Stanley, just remember who's calling him "one little priest"... it is someone who struggling to speak (definitively, it would seem) for the "universal magisterium" who is 'one little layperson.'

I, who am quite comfortable with being 'one little priest' certainly would not call Fr. Hardon by such an epithet, and I'm not RC.  As I see it, Mary is not content merely to disagree, but she must insult.  I find this disturbing how she attacks her own brethren when they don't toe her line.



I have many many friends and spiritual guides who are simple little priests and I love them and they are loving with me.  And they are not at all insulted by being thought of as a simple little parish priest.

How is it insulting to say that none of them singly can presume to speak without failure for the teachings of the Catholic Church?  I am sure all of them would say the same thing...That's how I learned it in fact... Wink

Bottom line?  Trust no priests in matters of Catholic teaching, not even those who are well educated and highly thought of.

The weird corollary seems to be that there is a laywoman in Pennsylvania (?) who is capable of sorting out their doctrinal errors.  It must be galling for them. A sort of lay magisterium! 

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« Reply #1701 on: January 30, 2012, 06:00:32 PM »

Quote
I have many many friends and spiritual guides who are simple little priests and I love them and they are loving with me.  And they are not at all insulted by being thought of as a simple little parish priest.

How is it insulting to say that none of them singly can presume to speak without failure for the teachings of the Catholic Church?  I am sure all of them would say the same thing...That's how I learned it in fact...
I think what is being said Maria, is that a priest such as Fr. Hardon, who is used to clarify RC teachings, can not be cast aside when it becomes inconvenient, by playing down their importance.

Example: My priest has never (to my knowledge) published books about Orthodox theology and is, if I can be forgiven, "a simple parish priest". If he said something that was counter to Orthodoxy, it would be nowhere near as earth-shattering as if Fr. Patrick Henry Reardon, or Fr. Hopko did the same thing.

If someone is used to clarify publicly, the RC position on numerous occasions and you disagree with him, you should have your ducks in a row when doing so.

PP

I understand.  But there's only so much time I am going to invest.

In some ways it is related to the question of catechisms.

There's a huge difference in a superficial reading of Trent and the Baltimore Catechisms and there are things said in the Baltimore Catechism that would not have even been thought to say in the time of the writing of the Tridentine Catechism.

Father Hardon had a very particular audience in mind and had some very particular training himself...So Father Hardon is like a local catechism compared to the Tridentine Catechism or the CCC.

Some might even say they express two different faiths... Grin

M.
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« Reply #1702 on: January 30, 2012, 06:44:44 PM »

Father Hardon had a very particular audience in mind and had some very particular training himself...So Father Hardon is like a local catechism compared to the Tridentine Catechism or the CCC.

Some might even say they express two different faiths... Grin

M.
What?? Two different faiths? What a ridiculous statement.
http://www.hardonsj.org/biography
At the request of His Holiness, Pope Paul VI, with whom Fr. Hardon had a close working relationship, Father Hardon  wrote The Catholic Catechism  (1975). "This work stands as a significant contribution to Catholic orthodoxy...Fr. Hardon also wrote the Modern Catholic Dictionary (1980), a detailed Catholic reference dictionary."  His Catholic catechism was a precursor to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, for which he was a consultant.
See: http://www.hardonsj.org/biography
And, by the way, Father Hardon is up for canonisation.
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« Reply #1703 on: January 31, 2012, 08:46:32 AM »

I think what is being said Maria, is that a priest such as Fr. Hardon, who is used to clarify RC teachings, can not be cast aside when it becomes inconvenient, by playing down their importance.

This is a little off-topic, but I wonder if you've ever seen this statement:

"Telling Catholics that they aren't perfect makes as much sense as telling fish they're wet. We know already. Move on."
- Fr. Philip Neri Powell, O.P., Ph.D., Church is not Wal-Mart (UPDATED).
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« Reply #1704 on: January 31, 2012, 08:47:06 AM »

A sort of lay magisterium! 

Have you ever been to CAF? (Rhetorical question.)
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« Reply #1705 on: January 31, 2012, 10:51:19 AM »

I think what is being said Maria, is that a priest such as Fr. Hardon, who is used to clarify RC teachings, can not be cast aside when it becomes inconvenient, by playing down their importance.

This is a little off-topic, but I wonder if you've ever seen this statement:

"Telling Catholics that they aren't perfect makes as much sense as telling fish they're wet. We know already. Move on."
- Fr. Philip Neri Powell, O.P., Ph.D., Church is not Wal-Mart (UPDATED).
No, I haven't. however I was simply responding to Maria's comment about Fr. hardon being a simple parish priest, which was obviously not the case.


PP
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« Reply #1706 on: January 31, 2012, 10:59:14 AM »

What exactly are you trying to say here?  The 'off-topic' bit makes the purpose of this quote  a bit ambiguous.  Could you clarify?

I think what is being said Maria, is that a priest such as Fr. Hardon, who is used to clarify RC teachings, can not be cast aside when it becomes inconvenient, by playing down their importance.

This is a little off-topic, but I wonder if you've ever seen this statement:

"Telling Catholics that they aren't perfect makes as much sense as telling fish they're wet. We know already. Move on."
- Fr. Philip Neri Powell, O.P., Ph.D., Church is not Wal-Mart (UPDATED).

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« Reply #1707 on: January 31, 2012, 12:17:57 PM »

As I said, it was a little off-topic. In retrospect, maybe a little too off-topic. Sorry.

But leaving aside it relevance to this thread, I do believe that it provides an interesting look into how Catholics think.

What exactly are you trying to say here?  The 'off-topic' bit makes the purpose of this quote  a bit ambiguous.  Could you clarify?

I think what is being said Maria, is that a priest such as Fr. Hardon, who is used to clarify RC teachings, can not be cast aside when it becomes inconvenient, by playing down their importance.

This is a little off-topic, but I wonder if you've ever seen this statement:

"Telling Catholics that they aren't perfect makes as much sense as telling fish they're wet. We know already. Move on."
- Fr. Philip Neri Powell, O.P., Ph.D., Church is not Wal-Mart (UPDATED).

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« Reply #1708 on: January 31, 2012, 01:16:18 PM »

Ridiculous, indeed!

Mary's posts appear to suffer from a case of Latin-Rite Oriental Hyperbole Syndrome!   laugh


Father Hardon had a very particular audience in mind and had some very particular training himself...So Father Hardon is like a local catechism compared to the Tridentine Catechism or the CCC.

Some might even say they express two different faiths... Grin

M.
What?? Two different faiths? What a ridiculous statement.
http://www.hardonsj.org/biography
At the request of His Holiness, Pope Paul VI, with whom Fr. Hardon had a close working relationship, Father Hardon  wrote The Catholic Catechism  (1975). "This work stands as a significant contribution to Catholic orthodoxy...Fr. Hardon also wrote the Modern Catholic Dictionary (1980), a detailed Catholic reference dictionary."  His Catholic catechism was a precursor to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, for which he was a consultant.
See: http://www.hardonsj.org/biography
And, by the way, Father Hardon is up for canonisation.
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« Reply #1709 on: January 31, 2012, 01:19:19 PM »


And, by the way, Father Hardon is up for canonisation.

Sure.  And what makes you think he's any less of a heretic in the eyes of the Orthodox on account?

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