OrthodoxChristianity.net
July 26, 2014, 01:28:15 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 »   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Indulgences, Temporal Punishment, Purgatory, etc  (Read 174899 times) Average Rating: 5
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Mickey
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Holy Orthodoxy
Posts: 1,309



« Reply #810 on: May 18, 2009, 11:22:37 AM »

I will pray for you.

How very kind of you.
Logged
PoorFoolNicholas
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Theologoumenon
Posts: 1,664


« Reply #811 on: May 18, 2009, 11:24:53 AM »

Back on topic Papist! I have given you a few days now. Have you any other evidence, not the recanted synod of Jerusalem, that shows Orthodoxy taught Purgatory?
Logged
LBK
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 10,160


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #812 on: May 18, 2009, 11:30:14 AM »

This is where you debate tactics become dishonest. You know quite well that fire is used symbolically to represent purifying suffering. Tsk tsk tsk.

My dear Papist, "fire" is used in a great many ways and senses: from a fire of blazing divine Love, to a fire of zeal for God, to fire as a source of torment for the unrepentant. I repeat my earlier post:

Quote
"a place of light, a place of refreshment, a place from which all sorrow and sighing have been banished."

Thank you for this, Father. After "Eternal Memory", this is perhaps the best-known passage of the funeral and memorial (panikhida, mnemosyno) services among Orthodox laity and it is sung at every such service, be it for the soul of an individual, or as part of a group commemoration, such as the Saturdays for the Souls of Great Lent and other times of the year. Yet another case of the liturgical tradition of the Church reflecting and proclaiming the consensus patrum.

The Orthodox Church's deposit of the consensus patrum is found within its liturgical deposit. The post I have reproduced above should be self-explanatory from the Orthodox perspective. What does the liturgical deposit of your church say? In other words, if the RCC holds that its liturgical deposit reflects and proclaims the consensus patrum of the Roman Catholic church, what do the funeral and requiem services say about the fate of the soul(s) of the departed?
I suspect the context of Fr. Ambrose's infromation will be helpful. Do you know where I can read about your liturgies concerning this matter?

Easy.

Here's a link to the text of the standard Orthodox funeral service for a layman.

http://www.anastasis.org.uk/funeral.htm

I reproduce selections from this service for the edification of readers:

With the spirits of the righteous made perfect in death give rest, O Saviour, to the soul of your servant; keeping it for the life of blessedness with you, O Lover of mankind.

In your repose where all your saints find rest, give rest, O Lord, to the soul of your servant, for you alone are immortal.

Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit.

You are our God who descended into Hell and did away with the pains of those who had been bound; give rest, O Saviour, also to the soul of your servant.


Funeral litany:

Deacon: Again and again, in peace let us pray to the Lord.

Reader: Lord, have mercy. Lord, have mercy. Lord, have mercy.

Deacon: Again we pray for the repose of the soul of the servant of God, N., who has fallen asleep, and that he/she may be pardoned every offence, both voluntary and involuntary.

Deacon: That the Lord our God may establish his/her soul where the righteous rest.

Reader: Lord, have mercy.

Deacon: The mercies of God, the kingdom of heaven and the forgiveness of his/her sins, let us ask of Christ, our immortal King and God.

Reader: Grant this, O Lord.

Deacon: Let us pray to the Lord.

Reader: Lord, have mercy.

Priest:

O God of spirits and all flesh, who trampled down death and crushed the devil, giving life to your world; do you, Lord, give rest to the soul of your servant N., who has fallen asleep, in a place of light, a place of green pasture, a place of refreshment, whence pain, grief and sighing have fled away. Pardon, O God, as you are good and love mankind, every sin committed by him/her in word or deed or thought, because there is none who will live and not sin, for you alone are without sin; your righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and your word is truth.

For you are the resurrection, the life and the repose of your servant N., who has fallen asleep, Christ our God, and to you we give glory, together with your Father who is without beginning, and your all-holy, good and life-giving Spirit, now and for ever, and to the ages of ages.

Reader: Amen.


Sessional hymn:
Give rest, O our Saviour, with the righeous to your servant; and make him/her dwell in your courts, as it is written; overlooking, as you are good, their offences, willing and unwilling, and all of them committed through ignorance or through knowledge, O lover of mankind.

Kontakion:

With the Saints give rest, O Christ, to the soul of your servant, where there is no toil, nor grief, nor sighing, but everlasting life.

Dismissal:

May he who has authority over the living and the dead, as immortal King, and who rose from the dead, Christ, our true God, through the intercessions of his most pure and holy Mother, of the holy, glorious and all-praised Apostles, of our venerable and God-bearing fathers, of the holy and glorious forefathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, of the holy and righteous Lazarus, dead for four days, the friend of Christ, and of all the Saints, establish in the tents of the righteous the soul of his servant who has gone from us, give him/her rest in the bosom of Abraham, and number them him/her with the righteous; and have mercy on us and save us, for he is a good God and loves mankind.

Eternal your memory, our brother/sister, worthy of blessedness and ever-remembered.

Eternal Memory (x3).


I ask you, Papist, and others, to carefully and objectively look through the whole funeral service. If you can find any mention or hint of purgatory for the soul anywhere, please post accordingly.

I might add the following variants of the Orthodox funeral service: that of a funeral conducted durng Bright Week (the week following Easter), and that of the funeral of a child. These are quite different in tone: the Bright Week funeral is practically a potted version of the Easter service, full of joy and triumph over death; the funeral for a child, while still poignant, has little of the penitential tone of the standard funeral, due to the inherent innocence of the soul of the departed child - rather, it has many references of consolation to the parents, family and loved ones for the loss of their little one.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2009, 11:40:30 AM by LBK » Logged
Mickey
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Holy Orthodoxy
Posts: 1,309



« Reply #813 on: May 18, 2009, 11:33:19 AM »

Here's a link to the text of the standard Orthodox funeral service for a layman.

Thank you, LBK!  Smiley
Logged
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,134


Truth, Justice, and the American way!


« Reply #814 on: May 18, 2009, 11:41:49 AM »

This is where you debate tactics become dishonest. You know quite well that fire is used symbolically to represent purifying suffering. Tsk tsk tsk.

My dear Papist, "fire" is used in a great many ways and senses: from a fire of blazing divine Love, to a fire of zeal for God, to fire as a source of torment for the unrepentant. I repeat my earlier post:

Quote
"a place of light, a place of refreshment, a place from which all sorrow and sighing have been banished."

Thank you for this, Father. After "Eternal Memory", this is perhaps the best-known passage of the funeral and memorial (panikhida, mnemosyno) services among Orthodox laity and it is sung at every such service, be it for the soul of an individual, or as part of a group commemoration, such as the Saturdays for the Souls of Great Lent and other times of the year. Yet another case of the liturgical tradition of the Church reflecting and proclaiming the consensus patrum.

The Orthodox Church's deposit of the consensus patrum is found within its liturgical deposit. The post I have reproduced above should be self-explanatory from the Orthodox perspective. What does the liturgical deposit of your church say? In other words, if the RCC holds that its liturgical deposit reflects and proclaims the consensus patrum of the Roman Catholic church, what do the funeral and requiem services say about the fate of the soul(s) of the departed?
I suspect the context of Fr. Ambrose's infromation will be helpful. Do you know where I can read about your liturgies concerning this matter?

Easy.

Here's a link to the text of the standard Orthodox funeral service for a layman.

http://www.anastasis.org.uk/funeral.htm

I reproduce selections from this service for the edification of readers:

With the spirits of the righteous made perfect in death give rest, O Saviour, to the soul of your servant; keeping it for the life of blessedness with you, O Lover of mankind.

In your repose where all your saints find rest, give rest, O Lord, to the soul of your servant, for you alone are immortal.

Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit.

You are our God who descended into Hell and did away with the pains of those who had been bound; give rest, O Saviour, also to the soul of your servant.


Funeral litany:

Deacon: Again and again, in peace let us pray to the Lord.

Reader: Lord, have mercy. Lord, have mercy. Lord, have mercy.

Deacon: Again we pray for the repose of the soul of the servant of God, N., who has fallen asleep, and that he/she may be pardoned every offence, both voluntary and involuntary.

Deacon: That the Lord our God may establish his/her soul where the righteous rest.

Reader: Lord, have mercy.

Deacon: The mercies of God, the kingdom of heaven and the forgiveness of his/her sins, let us ask of Christ, our immortal King and God.

Reader: Grant this, O Lord.

Deacon: Let us pray to the Lord.

Reader: Lord, have mercy.

Priest:

O God of spirits and all flesh, who trampled down death and crushed the devil, giving life to your world; do you, Lord, give rest to the soul of your servant N., who has fallen asleep, in a place of light, a place of green pasture, a place of refreshment, whence pain, grief and sighing have fled away. Pardon, O God, as you are good and love mankind, every sin committed by him/her in word or deed or thought, because there is none who will live and not sin, for you alone are without sin; your righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and your word is truth.

For you are the resurrection, the life and the repose of your servant N., who has fallen asleep, Christ our God, and to you we give glory, together with your Father who is without beginning, and your all-holy, good and life-giving Spirit, now and for ever, and to the ages of ages.

Reader: Amen.


Sessional hymn:
Give rest, O our Saviour, with the righeous to your servant; and make him/her dwell in your courts, as it is written; overlooking, as you are good, their offences, willing and unwilling, and all of them committed through ignorance or through knowledge, O lover of mankind.

Kontakion:

With the Saints give rest, O Christ, to the soul of your servant, where there is no toil, nor grief, nor sighing, but everlasting life.

Dismissal:

May he who has authority over the living and the dead, as immortal King, and who rose from the dead, Christ, our true God, through the intercessions of his most pure and holy Mother, of the holy, glorious and all-praised Apostles, of our venerable and God-bearing fathers, of the holy and glorious forefathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, of the holy and righteous Lazarus, dead for four days, the friend of Christ, and of all the Saints, establish in the tents of the righteous the soul of his servant who has gone from us, give him/her rest in the bosom of Abraham, and number them him/her with the righteous; and have mercy on us and save us, for he is a good God and loves mankind.

Eternal your memory, our brother/sister, worthy of blessedness and ever-remembered.

Eternal Memory (x3).


I ask you, Papist, and others, to carefully and objectively look through the whole funeral service. If you can find any mention or hint of purgatory for the soul anywhere, please post accordingly.

I might add the following variants of the Orthodox funeral service: that of a funeral conducted durng Bright Week (the week following Easter), and that of the funeral of a child. These are quite different in tone: the Bright Week funeral is practically a potted version of the Easter service, full of joy and triumph over death; the funeral for a child, while still poignant, has little of the penitential tone of the standard funeral, due to the inherent innocence of the soul of the departed child - rather, it has many references of consolation to the parents, family and loved ones for the loss of their little one.
Sounds like this is compatible with purgatory to me. They are praying that the sould recieve rest. Why would they pray for that if it was automatically given? There is concern in the prayers that the person might not be resting and thus we pray for that rest. Just like the Catholic Church.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
LBK
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 10,160


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #815 on: May 18, 2009, 11:57:12 AM »

Quote
Sounds like this is compatible with purgatory to me. They are praying that the sould recieve rest. Why would they pray for that if it was automatically given? There is concern in the prayers that the person might not be resting and thus we pray for that rest. Just like the Catholic Church.

This is quite disingenuous, Papist. The funeral service is held within a few days of death, and some of the prayers I have quoted are read/sung at the office of the departure of the soul, i.e. just after the point of death. Orthodox tradition holds that the soul leaves the body at physical death, but remains "close by" in an indefinable and mysterious way for 40 days after bodily death. This is why it is considered unseemly for a bereaved person to attend parties or other joyous events during this period, and that a memorial service be held for the soul of the deceased at 40 days. Thereafter, the bereaved are free to live and arrange their lives as normal, though folk custom often "dictates" that certain activities are "forbidden" for several months, a year, or three years, depending on circumstance. But these are mere customs, and not what the Church expects or "demands".

If the funeral is held within such a short period after death, then how can this service be regarded as supporting the notion of purgatory? As I asked before, read and consider objectively the whole service before posting. I also ask again, what is the equivalent liturgical tradition of the RCC? Or is it not the case that the liturgical tradition of the RCC reflects the consensus patrum as the RCC sees it?
Logged
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,134


Truth, Justice, and the American way!


« Reply #816 on: May 18, 2009, 12:03:16 PM »

Quote
Sounds like this is compatible with purgatory to me. They are praying that the sould recieve rest. Why would they pray for that if it was automatically given? There is concern in the prayers that the person might not be resting and thus we pray for that rest. Just like the Catholic Church.

This is quite disingenuous, Papist. The funeral service is held within a few days of death, and some of the prayers I have quoted are read/sung at the office of the departure of the soul, i.e. just after the point of death. Orthodox tradition holds that the soul leaves the body at physical death, but remains "close by" in an indefinable and mysterious way for 40 days after bodily death. This is why it is considered unseemly for a bereaved person to attend parties or other joyous events during this period, and that a memorial service be held for the soul of the deceased at 40 days. Thereafter, the bereaved are free to live and arrange their lives as normal, though folk custom often "dictates" that certain activities are "forbidden" for several months, a year, or three years, depending on circumstance. But these are mere customs, and not what the Church expects or "demands".

If the funeral is held within such a short period after death, then how can this service be regarded as supporting the notion of purgatory? As I asked before, read and consider objectively the whole service before posting. I also ask again, what is the equivalent liturgical tradition of the RCC? Or is it not the case that the liturgical tradition of the RCC reflects the consensus patrum as the RCC sees it?
Its not disingenous at all. They are praying that the soul get's rest because hit may not have rest yet.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
AlexanderOfBergamo
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Traditionalist Christian
Jurisdiction: The Original First Millennium Church
Posts: 706


« Reply #817 on: May 18, 2009, 12:14:43 PM »

If you want to prove something, dear Papist, you should look for the the word "purification" within the liturgical texts and see if there's any cleansing or purification after death in our liturgical traditions. What LBK just said is correct. Still no proof of a purification after death for sinners.
Anyway, you're lucky that our liturgical texts are more conservative, so that there's no risk of actual manipulation of the contents you could argue for. But what about your continuous liturgical changes over the last 1000 years? Every trace of the original Latin rites have disappeared.
Also, it is incredible how you automatically consider prayers for the dead a PROOF for purification after death. We deny purification after death but never associated it to purification; yet we still believe prayers for the dead to be useful. As you can see, to us any proof of prayers for the dead is entirely missing the purpose of the original problem "Is purgatory an originally orthodox doctrine?".
We are not protestants, yet you insist treating us as if we embraced Luther's denial of prayers for the dead. Don't you really get it, that prayers for the dead are a true Orthodox practice we will never give up? And as you can see we don't need your dogma of purgatory to justify it. Indeed, no justification is needed at all, Tradition is enough!

In Christ,   Alex
Logged

"Also in the Catholic Church itself we take great care that we hold that which has been believed everywhere, always, by all. For that is truly and properly Catholic" (St. Vincent of Lérins, "The Commonitory")
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,134


Truth, Justice, and the American way!


« Reply #818 on: May 18, 2009, 12:31:18 PM »

If you want to prove something, dear Papist, you should look for the the word "purification" within the liturgical texts and see if there's any cleansing or purification after death in our liturgical traditions. What LBK just said is correct. Still no proof of a purification after death for sinners.
Anyway, you're lucky that our liturgical texts are more conservative, so that there's no risk of actual manipulation of the contents you could argue for. But what about your continuous liturgical changes over the last 1000 years? Every trace of the original Latin rites have disappeared.
Also, it is incredible how you automatically consider prayers for the dead a PROOF for purification after death. We deny purification after death but never associated it to purification; yet we still believe prayers for the dead to be useful. As you can see, to us any proof of prayers for the dead is entirely missing the purpose of the original problem "Is purgatory an originally orthodox doctrine?".
We are not protestants, yet you insist treating us as if we embraced Luther's denial of prayers for the dead. Don't you really get it, that prayers for the dead are a true Orthodox practice we will never give up? And as you can see we don't need your dogma of purgatory to justify it. Indeed, no justification is needed at all, Tradition is enough!

In Christ,   Alex
I am not saying that the liturgy proves teh existence of purgatory beyond the shadow of doubt. I am saying that it seems to be very open to the concept.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
AlexanderOfBergamo
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Traditionalist Christian
Jurisdiction: The Original First Millennium Church
Posts: 706


« Reply #819 on: May 18, 2009, 12:37:19 PM »

That's true. In fact we are open to everything but embrace nothing as official. Since purification after death is a dogma to you, to restore communion we should accept it. But we want freedom too accept it or not, so we can't reunite. That's all, folks.
Logged

"Also in the Catholic Church itself we take great care that we hold that which has been believed everywhere, always, by all. For that is truly and properly Catholic" (St. Vincent of Lérins, "The Commonitory")
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,134


Truth, Justice, and the American way!


« Reply #820 on: May 18, 2009, 12:39:30 PM »

That's true. In fact we are open to everything but embrace nothing as official. Since purification after death is a dogma to you, to restore communion we should accept it. But we want freedom too accept it or not, so we can't reunite. That's all, folks.
I never said that we were going to reunite. Where did this come from?
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
AlexanderOfBergamo
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Traditionalist Christian
Jurisdiction: The Original First Millennium Church
Posts: 706


« Reply #821 on: May 18, 2009, 12:44:54 PM »

The main purpose of this forum is also to let us understand each other. I think that the most obvious purpose of communication between similar yet different faiths such as ours is also to fulfill Christ's prayer that we might be One.
Logged

"Also in the Catholic Church itself we take great care that we hold that which has been believed everywhere, always, by all. For that is truly and properly Catholic" (St. Vincent of Lérins, "The Commonitory")
Mickey
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Holy Orthodoxy
Posts: 1,309



« Reply #822 on: May 18, 2009, 12:55:12 PM »

The main purpose of this forum is also to let us understand each other. I think that the most obvious purpose of communication between similar yet different faiths such as ours is also to fulfill Christ's prayer that we might be One.

Yes. And it is very sad that the West has departed so drastically from the faith of our fathers. And it seems that the chasm only widens with time.  Have you ever read the article by St Justin Popovich which states that [RC]ism is actually the first and the oldest Protestantism?
« Last Edit: May 18, 2009, 12:55:52 PM by Mickey » Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #823 on: May 18, 2009, 03:20:31 PM »


Here's a link to the text of the standard Orthodox funeral service for a layman.

http://www.anastasis.org.uk/funeral.htm

Thanks, I did not know this was online.
Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #824 on: May 18, 2009, 03:20:47 PM »

I suspect the context of Fr. Ambrose's infromation will be helpful. Do you know where I can read about your liturgies concerning this matter?
[/quote]

Here is the most frequently served Requiem Service for the dead.

http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/pannihida_r_e.htm

It is a truncated version of the funeral service.  Reached its final form in the 8th century.
Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #825 on: May 18, 2009, 03:23:01 PM »

I was reading a book which said that purgatorial fire is not part of the official doctrine required for belief of Catholics. Could you kindly provide a link which shows that this book was wrong and that you are right in your statement that it is part of the Latin official doctrine as you have stated here?

The Roman Catholic approach to Tradition is notoriouslyy unstable.  Beliefs which have been promulgated by Popes and the Magisterium for centuries and piously believed by the faithful may be altered virtually overnight  -if they have not had an "official" promulgation at some stage.  "Official" promulgations trimph over the traditional beliefs of the Catholic Church.

-oOo-

 It was Pope Gregory in the seventh century who elevated the opinion of the earlier thinkers into a more or less formulated doctrine: "Purgatorial fire will cleanse every elect soul before they come into the Last Judgement." So began the divergent thought that developed over the course of centuries between the Byzantines and Latins.

The Eastern Christian world retained a simpler doctrine of the afterlife that maintained that the souls of the elect, even those who were not particularly holy, would be retained in "a place of light, a place of refreshment, a place from which all sorrow and sighing have been banished." This view reflected the statement in Revelation 14:13 that "those who die in the Lord rest from their labors." In short, the state of afterlife as it was envisaged in the Eastern church was generally a happy and restful condition in which the departed souls of the faithful were not divorced from God, but waited on Judgment Day with hopeful anticipation, as the time when they would be admitted to a transfigured and paradisial condition in proximity to God. [This remains the tradition of the Eastern Orthodox.]

The Latin church, on the other hand, developed its doctrine of purgatory with a more marked stress on that state of painful purification that would attend the souls of all those who had not reached a state of purity before their death.


Modern Roman Catholic theology, after Trent, has clearly moved away from emphasizing the purifying pains of purgatorial fire and instead highlights the need for the living to commemorate the dead who have preceded them.

http://www.deathreference.com/Nu-Pu/Purgatory.html

-oOo-


This is where you debate tactics become dishonest. You know quite well that fire is used symbolically to represent purifying suffereing. Tsk tsk tsk.

I stand amazed that you know so little of the teaching of your Church.   It is possible to provide the words of Popes and theologians from centuries past which demonstrate that the Catholic Church once taught that purgatorial fire was real material fire.     All that you are offering is a modern 20th century revamping of the doctrine - just as questionable as that of previous centuries.

Have you read the Catholic explanation of purgatory offered to the Orthodox at the Council of Florence?  The Council spent three months on the question of purgatorial FIRE.

"From the time of the Apostles, the Church of Rome has taught.... The souls of those who after their baptism have sinned, but have afterwards sincerely repented and confessed their sins, though unable to perform the epitimia laid upon them by their spiritual father, or bring forth fruits of repentance sufficient to atone for their sins, these souls are purified by the fire of purgatory, some sooner, others slower, according, to their sins.." Florence.


"The same fire torments the damned in hell and the just in Purgatory. The least pain in Purgatory exceeds the greatest in this life." - St. Thomas Aquinas.

" "The truth has been divinely revealed that sins are followed by punishments. God's holiness and justice inflict them. Sins must be expiated. This may be done on this earth through the sorrows, miseries and trials of this life and, above all, through death. Otherwise the expiation must be made in the next life through fire and torments or purifying punishments."  Apostolic Constitution on Indulgences, Pope Paul VI, 1967

Papist, if you do not know the previous teaching of your Church, I urge you to do some study.  There is an enormous lot of material on it.



Logged
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,134


Truth, Justice, and the American way!


« Reply #826 on: May 18, 2009, 03:25:51 PM »

I was reading a book which said that purgatorial fire is not part of the official doctrine required for belief of Catholics. Could you kindly provide a link which shows that this book was wrong and that you are right in your statement that it is part of the Latin official doctrine as you have stated here?

The Roman Catholic approach to Tradition is notoriouslyy unstable.  Beliefs which have been promulgated by Popes and the Magisterium for centuries and piously believed by the faithful may be altered virtually overnight  -if they have not had an "official" promulgation at some stage.  "Official" promulgations trimph over the traditional beliefs of the Catholic Church.

-oOo-

 It was Pope Gregory in the seventh century who elevated the opinion of the earlier thinkers into a more or less formulated doctrine: "Purgatorial fire will cleanse every elect soul before they come into the Last Judgement." So began the divergent thought that developed over the course of centuries between the Byzantines and Latins.

The Eastern Christian world retained a simpler doctrine of the afterlife that maintained that the souls of the elect, even those who were not particularly holy, would be retained in "a place of light, a place of refreshment, a place from which all sorrow and sighing have been banished." This view reflected the statement in Revelation 14:13 that "those who die in the Lord rest from their labors." In short, the state of afterlife as it was envisaged in the Eastern church was generally a happy and restful condition in which the departed souls of the faithful were not divorced from God, but waited on Judgment Day with hopeful anticipation, as the time when they would be admitted to a transfigured and paradisial condition in proximity to God. [This remains the tradition of the Eastern Orthodox.]

The Latin church, on the other hand, developed its doctrine of purgatory with a more marked stress on that state of painful purification that would attend the souls of all those who had not reached a state of purity before their death.


Modern Roman Catholic theology, after Trent, has clearly moved away from emphasizing the purifying pains of purgatorial fire and instead highlights the need for the living to commemorate the dead who have preceded them.

http://www.deathreference.com/Nu-Pu/Purgatory.html

-oOo-


This is where you debate tactics become dishonest. You know quite well that fire is used symbolically to represent purifying suffereing. Tsk tsk tsk.

I stand amazed that you know so little of the teaching of your Church.   It is possible to provide the words of Popes and theologians from centuries past which demonstrate that the Catholic Church once taught that purgatorial fire was real material fire.     All that you are offering is a modern 20th century revamping of the doctrine - just as questionable as that of previous centuries.

Have you read the Catholic explanation of purgatory offered to the Orthodox at the Council of Florence?  The Council spent three months on the question of purgatorial FIRE.

"From the time of the Apostles, the Church of Rome has taught.... The souls of those who after their baptism have sinned, but have afterwards sincerely repented and confessed their sins, though unable to perform the epitimia laid upon them by their spiritual father, or bring forth fruits of repentance sufficient to atone for their sins, these souls are purified by the fire of purgatory, some sooner, others slower, according, to their sins.." Florence.


"The same fire torments the damned in hell and the just in Purgatory. The least pain in Purgatory exceeds the greatest in this life." - St. Thomas Aquinas.

" "The truth has been divinely revealed that sins are followed by punishments. God's holiness and justice inflict them. Sins must be expiated. This may be done on this earth through the sorrows, miseries and trials of this life and, above all, through death. Otherwise the expiation must be made in the next life through fire and torments or purifying punishments."  Apostolic Constitution on Indulgences, Pope Paul VI, 1967

Papist, if you do not know the previous teaching of your Church, I urge you to do some study.  There is an enormous lot of material on it.




It amazes me that you know so little about theology in general and do not understand its depths. None of this requires that we believe in a literal physical fire. Did you not go to college?
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Mickey
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Holy Orthodoxy
Posts: 1,309



« Reply #827 on: May 18, 2009, 03:38:03 PM »

"The same fire torments the damned in hell and the just in Purgatory. The least pain in Purgatory exceeds the greatest in this life." - St. Thomas Aquinas.

That is an interesting quote by Aquinas. The catechism of the catholic church this says about purgatory:

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.
Logged
stanley123
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Roman Catholic
Posts: 3,809


« Reply #828 on: May 18, 2009, 04:35:21 PM »

I repeat, dear stanley123: even a figurative understanding of purgatorial fire seems to be foreign to Orthodoxy. I believe that there's no agent or state of purification as you as Eastern Catholics are also bound to believe. I think that a more neutral position like the Orthodox is the best choice, and reject everything added to that vague but at least certain doctrine of the Church.
As you can see, I believe in the toll-houses (although understanding them as a parable for the Personal Judgment), yet I don't consider my brothers and sisters in Christ to be in error when they think it's a gnostic theory. We are both defending our personal opinions, but none of them has ever been anathematized. On the contrary, dogmatizing the concept of a purgatorial state is in itself something binding... there's no room enough for personal opinion and it doesn't nourish our souls for our salvation.

In Christ,    Alex

Wait.
First you said that “the "full" doctrine of purgatory (including purgatorial fire) is part of the Latin official doctrine”. But I did not see the reference or support for this assertion? 
I was reading the book: “Purgatory and Heaven” by J.P. Arendzen. The book has both the nihil obstat and the imprimatur given in 1960. It is published by TAN books. According to this author:
“Are we bound to believe that the fire of purgatory is physically real in the sense in which the fire of hell is? It is certainly not an article of Catholic Faith in the technical and formal sense. It has never been defined by the solemn magisterium of the Church, by Pope or Council, …etc.  When… Bessarion, at the Council of Florence argued against the existence of a real fire in purgatory, the Greeks were assured that the Roman Church had never dogmatically pronounced on this point…etc. Hence we may take it for granted that the reality of the fire of purgatory is not of the Catholic faith.”
“It is true that for many centuries in the West in popular addresses to the faithful…both the fire and the pain of the senses have been taken for granted, but between this and official Catholic teaching there is a wide margin.” Etc.

Logged
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,134


Truth, Justice, and the American way!


« Reply #829 on: May 18, 2009, 04:38:10 PM »

"The same fire torments the damned in hell and the just in Purgatory. The least pain in Purgatory exceeds the greatest in this life." - St. Thomas Aquinas.

That is an interesting quote by Aquinas. The catechism of the catholic church this says about purgatory:

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.
What's your point?
If fire is a symbol for suffering this quote does nothing to bolster you arguement.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2009, 04:39:17 PM by Papist » Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #830 on: May 18, 2009, 05:08:39 PM »


First you said that “the "full" doctrine of purgatory (including purgatorial fire) is part of the Latin official doctrine”. But I did not see the reference or support for this assertion? 

I was reading the book: “Purgatory and Heaven” by J.P. Arendzen. The book has both the nihil obstat and the imprimatur given in 1960. It is published by TAN books. According to this author:

“Are we bound to believe that the fire of purgatory is physically real in the sense in which the fire of hell is? It is certainly not an article of Catholic Faith in the technical and formal sense. It has never been defined by the solemn magisterium of the Church, by Pope or Council, …etc.  When… Bessarion, at the Council of Florence argued against the existence of a real fire in purgatory, the Greeks were assured that the Roman Church had never dogmatically pronounced on this point…etc. Hence we may take it for granted that the reality of the fire of purgatory is not of the Catholic faith.”
“It is true that for many centuries in the West in popular addresses to the faithful…both the fire and the pain of the senses have been taken for granted, but between this and official Catholic teaching there is a wide margin.” Etc.


Just to offer a reminder that the Summa Theologica of Thomas Aquinas is published with a Nihil Obstat and an Imprimatur.

"The same fire torments the damned in hell and the just in Purgatory" ~ Aquinas.

The Nihil Obstat and the Imprimatur confirm that this teaching is in conformity with the teaching of the Catholic Church and may be safely accepted by the faithful.

How this can be reconciled with what Arendzen says above is the task of the reconstruction which has been taking place in the Catholic Church over the last decades.

For a post about the confusing reductionism and reconstruction which is at work in contemporary Catholicism please see this message

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13820.msg306110.html#msg306110

Logged
stanley123
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Roman Catholic
Posts: 3,809


« Reply #831 on: May 18, 2009, 05:23:48 PM »


First you said that “the "full" doctrine of purgatory (including purgatorial fire) is part of the Latin official doctrine”. But I did not see the reference or support for this assertion? 

I was reading the book: “Purgatory and Heaven” by J.P. Arendzen. The book has both the nihil obstat and the imprimatur given in 1960. It is published by TAN books. According to this author:

“Are we bound to believe that the fire of purgatory is physically real in the sense in which the fire of hell is? It is certainly not an article of Catholic Faith in the technical and formal sense. It has never been defined by the solemn magisterium of the Church, by Pope or Council, …etc.  When… Bessarion, at the Council of Florence argued against the existence of a real fire in purgatory, the Greeks were assured that the Roman Church had never dogmatically pronounced on this point…etc. Hence we may take it for granted that the reality of the fire of purgatory is not of the Catholic faith.”
“It is true that for many centuries in the West in popular addresses to the faithful…both the fire and the pain of the senses have been taken for granted, but between this and official Catholic teaching there is a wide margin.” Etc.


Just to offer a reminder that the Summa Theologica of Thomas Aquinas is published with a Nihil Obstat and an Imprimatur.

"The same fire torments the damned in hell and the just in Purgatory" ~ Aquinas.

The Nihil Obstat and the Imprimatur confirm that this teaching is in conformity with the teaching of the Catholic Church and may be safely accepted by the faithful.

How this can be reconciled with what Arendzen says above is the task of the reconstruction which has been taking place in the Catholic Church over the last decades.

For a post about the confusing reductionism and reconstruction which is at work in contemporary Catholicism please see this message

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13820.msg306110.html#msg306110


My personal opinion on this question is as follows:
Catholics are free to hold with St. Thomas in favor of purgatorial fire, and they are also free to hold against it and invoke what the CCC says. I guess that it would be similar to the question of Orthodox toll houses. “Are we bound to believe that the fire of purgatory is physically real in the sense in which the fire of hell is? It is certainly not an article of Catholic Faith in the technical and formal sense. It has never been defined by the solemn magisterium of the Church, by Pope or Council, ...etc."
Probably the better source today would be the CCC:
1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2009, 05:28:06 PM by stanley123 » Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #832 on: May 18, 2009, 06:45:10 PM »

It amazes me that you know so little about theology in general and do not understand its depths. None of this requires that we believe in a literal physical fire. Did you not go to college?

Right,  So let's look at the Petrine teaching given above by Pope Paul VI: 

"Otherwise the expiation must be made in the next life
through fire and torments or purifying punishments." 

Now let's look at how Papist understands it.

The Pope says, fire.   Papist says no fire.

The Pope says, torments.  Papist says no torments.

The Pope says, purifying punishments.

Papist says no purifying punuishments.

Do you even believe in the expiation which the Pope teaches?!  Or is that also a non-literal expiation?


Sounds like the teaching is a bit of a mess.  Peter says one thing through the mouth Of Pope Paul VI.  Papist has another teaching thanks, it would seem, to the fact that he went to college.   Grin
Logged
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,134


Truth, Justice, and the American way!


« Reply #833 on: May 18, 2009, 10:12:53 PM »

It amazes me that you know so little about theology in general and do not understand its depths. None of this requires that we believe in a literal physical fire. Did you not go to college?

Right,  So let's look at the Petrine teaching given above by Pope Paul VI: 

"Otherwise the expiation must be made in the next life
through fire and torments or purifying punishments." 

Now let's look at how Papist understands it.

The Pope says, fire.   Papist says no fire.

The Pope says, torments.  Papist says no torments.

The Pope says, purifying punishments.

Papist says no purifying punuishments.

Do you even believe in the expiation which the Pope teaches?!  Or is that also a non-literal expiation?


Sounds like the teaching is a bit of a mess.  Peter says one thing through the mouth Of Pope Paul VI.  Papist has another teaching thanks, it would seem, to the fact that he went to college.   Grin
And people never speak in metaphors? I am sorry Fr. A but you are just not very good at this game.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,124



« Reply #834 on: May 18, 2009, 10:26:43 PM »

It amazes me that you know so little about theology in general and do not understand its depths. None of this requires that we believe in a literal physical fire. Did you not go to college?

Right,  So let's look at the Petrine teaching given above by Pope Paul VI: 

"Otherwise the expiation must be made in the next life
through fire and torments or purifying punishments." 

Now let's look at how Papist understands it.

The Pope says, fire.   Papist says no fire.

The Pope says, torments.  Papist says no torments.

The Pope says, purifying punishments.

Papist says no purifying punuishments.

Do you even believe in the expiation which the Pope teaches?!  Or is that also a non-literal expiation?


Sounds like the teaching is a bit of a mess.  Peter says one thing through the mouth Of Pope Paul VI.  Papist has another teaching thanks, it would seem, to the fact that he went to college.   Grin
And people never speak in metaphors?

And at times they don't.

Quote
I am sorry Fr. A but you are just not very good at this game.

At double talk.  No, he's not very good at that at all.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Entscheidungsproblem
Formerly Friul & Nebelpfade
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Machine God
Posts: 4,495



WWW
« Reply #835 on: May 18, 2009, 10:28:44 PM »

Let's make sure everything stays civil and we stay out of ad hominem territory.

-- Nebelpfade
Logged

As a result of a thousand million years of evolution, the universe is becoming conscious of itself, able to understand something of its past history and its possible future.
-- Sir Julian Sorell Huxley FRS
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #836 on: May 19, 2009, 12:18:44 AM »

It amazes me that you know so little about theology in general and do not understand its depths. None of this requires that we believe in a literal physical fire. Did you not go to college?

Right,  So let's look at the Petrine teaching given above by Pope Paul VI: 

"Otherwise the expiation must be made in the next life
through fire and torments or purifying punishments." 


And people never speak in metaphors? I am sorry Fr. A but you are just not very good at this game.

Well, the Pope says, expiation, fire, torments, puriying punishments.

How do the people tell when the Pope is playing a game or not?   How do they know that he does not mean expiation, fire, torments, purifying punishments.   I looked at the Apostolic Constitution Indulgentiarum Doctrina  and he never says he is playing games.  I think he is being very serious and he expects the Catholic Church to be obedient to his papal magisterium and to take his teaching literally.  Roma locuta est...
Logged
Alveus Lacuna
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA (Old Calendar)
Posts: 6,789



« Reply #837 on: May 19, 2009, 03:32:28 AM »

And people never speak in metaphors?

That's part of the argument for the toll-houses as well...
Logged
LBK
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 10,160


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #838 on: May 19, 2009, 06:17:26 AM »

And people never speak in metaphors?

That's part of the argument for the toll-houses as well...

But tollhouses have never been part of official Orthodox doctrine or dogma. There's the rub.  Wink
Logged
Alveus Lacuna
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA (Old Calendar)
Posts: 6,789



« Reply #839 on: May 19, 2009, 06:31:25 AM »

But tollhouses have never been part of official Orthodox doctrine or dogma. There's the rub.

Just wait until the Great and Holy Synod... the OCA will absorb all diaspora churches (including all those not in America), all churches will switch to the Chinese calendar, all clergy and monastics will be made to shave off the left-half of their beards, and the aerial toll-houses as well as the use of pews will be made dogmatic.
Logged
Mickey
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Holy Orthodoxy
Posts: 1,309



« Reply #840 on: May 19, 2009, 08:09:38 AM »

Just wait until the Great and Holy Synod... the OCA will absorb all diaspora churches (including all those not in America), all churches will switch to the Chinese calendar, all clergy and monastics will be made to shave off the left-half of their beards, and the aerial toll-houses as well as the use of pews will be made dogmatic.

Yikes!  Shocked
Logged
Mickey
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Holy Orthodoxy
Posts: 1,309



« Reply #841 on: May 19, 2009, 08:13:44 AM »


The Pope says, fire.   Papist says no fire.

The Pope says, torments.  Papist says no torments.

The Pope says, purifying punishments.

Papist says no purifying punuishments.


Perhaps Papist is contributing to the development of doctrine.  laugh
Logged
PoorFoolNicholas
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Theologoumenon
Posts: 1,664


« Reply #842 on: May 19, 2009, 09:25:01 AM »

Am I ever going to get an answer Papist, or are you about done? Show some proof that WE The Orthodox Church, have changed OUR teachings regarding Purgatory. The last several posts, IMHO, have shown that the Catholic Church has changed THEIR stance on the teaching of Purgatory, not the other way around.
Logged
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,134


Truth, Justice, and the American way!


« Reply #843 on: May 19, 2009, 11:03:26 AM »

Am I ever going to get an answer Papist, or are you about done? Show some proof that WE The Orthodox Church, have changed OUR teachings regarding Purgatory. The last several posts, IMHO, have shown that the Catholic Church has changed THEIR stance on the teaching of Purgatory, not the other way around.

]
You have shown no such thing. All you have shown that we have consistantly used the "fire imagery" as one metaphor to understand purgatory.
Also, I already showed in the council of Jerusalem where the Orthodox Church taught the doctrine of purgatory.
I am sorry if you simply do not want to come to terms with reality, but such is life.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
PoorFoolNicholas
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Theologoumenon
Posts: 1,664


« Reply #844 on: May 19, 2009, 11:15:36 AM »

You have shown no such thing. All you have shown that we have consistantly used the "fire imagery" as one metaphor to understand purgatory.
Also, I already showed in the council of Jerusalem where the Orthodox Church taught the doctrine of purgatory.
I am sorry if you simply do not want to come to terms with reality, but such is life.
I now can see why Mardukm posts on here, you are completely incapable of debating a point. The evidence you have given was RECANTED. I am sorry you do not want to come to terms with the reality of it. Anything else? Any other proof? This is getting ridiculous.
Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #845 on: May 19, 2009, 12:12:39 PM »

All you have shown that we have consistantly used the "fire imagery" as one metaphor to understand purgatory.

I am sure that all the Catholics on this Forum who contend so well for their faith are aware of the Jesuit priest Fr Hardon (recently deceased.)  Fr Hardon has been one of the pre-eminent apologists of the Catholic Faith over the last 40 years.  His works are everywhere, on EWTN, etc., etc.

He flatly contradicts what you are saying....

"Writers in the Latin tradition are quite unanimous that the fire of purgatory is real and not metaphorical. They argue from the common teaching of the Latin Fathers, of some Greek Fathers, and of certain papal statements like that of Pope Innocent IV, who spoke of “a transitory fire” (DB 456)."

"The Doctrine of Purgatory"
by Fr. John A. Hardon, S.J.
http://www.therealpresence.org/archives/Eschatology/Eschatology_006.htm
Logged
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,134


Truth, Justice, and the American way!


« Reply #846 on: May 19, 2009, 12:40:03 PM »

You have shown no such thing. All you have shown that we have consistantly used the "fire imagery" as one metaphor to understand purgatory.
Also, I already showed in the council of Jerusalem where the Orthodox Church taught the doctrine of purgatory.
I am sorry if you simply do not want to come to terms with reality, but such is life.
I now can see why Mardukm posts on here, you are completely incapable of debating a point. The evidence you have given was RECANTED. I am sorry you do not want to come to terms with the reality of it. Anything else? Any other proof? This is getting ridiculous.
Actually it was not recanted. It was argued against poorly. There is a difference.
Also, in which council was it taught that it must be understood as a literal fire? In what magesterial document? Where? I have not seen an example yet. Heck read Dante's Purgatorio see a general view of how Catholics have viewed purgatory. It'sn not necessarily literal fire there. In fact, even what he presents can be seen as metaphorical.
As for Jerusalem. I think you guys are just being dishonst to protect your view point. Plain and simple.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2009, 12:42:30 PM by Papist » Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
AlexanderOfBergamo
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Traditionalist Christian
Jurisdiction: The Original First Millennium Church
Posts: 706


« Reply #847 on: May 19, 2009, 12:48:47 PM »

At a certain time you even believed in limbo... even your Popes did. Did they RECANT or just CHANGE THEIR DOCTRINES?
Logged

"Also in the Catholic Church itself we take great care that we hold that which has been believed everywhere, always, by all. For that is truly and properly Catholic" (St. Vincent of Lérins, "The Commonitory")
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,124



« Reply #848 on: May 19, 2009, 01:04:58 PM »

You have shown no such thing. All you have shown that we have consistantly used the "fire imagery" as one metaphor to understand purgatory.
Also, I already showed in the council of Jerusalem where the Orthodox Church taught the doctrine of purgatory.
I am sorry if you simply do not want to come to terms with reality, but such is life.
I now can see why Mardukm posts on here, you are completely incapable of debating a point. The evidence you have given was RECANTED. I am sorry you do not want to come to terms with the reality of it. Anything else? Any other proof? This is getting ridiculous.
Actually it was not recanted. It was argued against poorly. There is a difference.
Also, in which council was it taught that it must be understood as a literal fire? In what magesterial document? Where? I have not seen an example yet. Heck read Dante's Purgatorio see a general view of how Catholics have viewed purgatory. It'sn not necessarily literal fire there. In fact, even what he presents can be seen as metaphorical.
As for Jerusalem. I think you guys are just being dishonst to protect your view point. Plain and simple.

Try a plain and simple exercise.

St. Peter Movila wrote his Orthodox Confession of Faith in Latin and submitted it to the Synod of Iasi.  He, having a Latin education, used the Catechismus Romanus of Trent and the Summa Doctrinae Christianae of the Jesuit Canisius.  These latter Counter-Reformation works of the Vatican of course taught your dogma of purgatory, and St. Peter repeated the mistake.  The Synod, however, did not: it approved the Greek translation with its corrections of dogma at Iasi, and this corrected version without purgatory was approved by the Synod of Jerusalem that you put so much stock in.
(see Peter Mohyla's Translation of "The Imitation of Christ" Liudmila Charipova,The Historical Journal, Vol. 46, No. 2 (Jun., 2003), pp. 237-261 at 254).

So just compare Trent and Canisius' exposition on purgatory with the Orthodox Confession of Faith approved at Iasi and Jerusalem. This on top of your "proof" above, where it has been pointed out that Dositheus speaks of suffering but not of purgation.  See what has been excised in borrowing the Trent and Canisius' catechisms and tell us your "proof" that the Orthodox Church taught Purgatory.

Quote
Moghila's latinizing approach is evident in the wide-ranging liturgical reforms that he imposed, for example in the Sacrament of Confession, where he replaced the deprecative formula used at absolution in the Greek manuals ("May God forgive you …") with an indicative formula taken directly from the Roman Catholic ritual ("I absolve you …"). The Orthodox Confession of Faith that he composed in 1639–1640 was based on Latin catechisms by Peter Canisius and others. Here Moghila not only employed the term transubstantiation but taught explicitly that the moment of consecration in the Eucharist occurs at the Words of Institution, not at the Epiclesis of the Holy Spirit; and when discussing the state of the departed he virtually adopted the Latin doctrine of purgatory. After extensive alterations had been made in the Orthodox Confession by the Greek theologian Meletios Syrigos, it was approved by the Council of Jassy (1642) and by the four Eastern patriarchs (1643). Moghila himself was displeased by these changes. In his Little Catechism (1645) he continued to affirm consecration by Words of Institution, although he was more guarded on the question of purgatory.
http://www.bookrags.com/research/petr-moghila-eorl-10/
« Last Edit: May 19, 2009, 01:08:52 PM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Mickey
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Holy Orthodoxy
Posts: 1,309



« Reply #849 on: May 19, 2009, 01:36:02 PM »

Also, in which council was it taught that it must be understood as a literal fire? In what magesterial document? Where? I have not seen an example yet.

It is said that the Greeks themselves unhesitatingly believe and maintain that the souls of those who do not perform a penance which they have received, or the souls of those who die free from mortal sins but with even the slightest venial sins, are purified after death and can be helped by the prayers of the Church.
Since the Greeks say that their Doctors have not given them a definite and proper name for the place of such purification, We, following the tradition and authority of the holy Fathers, call that place purgatory; and it is our will that the Greeks use that name in the future.
For sins are truly purified by that temporal fire — not grievous or capital sins which have not first been remitted by penance, but small and slight sins which remain a burden after death, if they have not been pardoned during life (DB, 456).
Pope Innocent IV
Logged
stanley123
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Roman Catholic
Posts: 3,809


« Reply #850 on: May 19, 2009, 02:27:40 PM »

All you have shown that we have consistantly used the "fire imagery" as one metaphor to understand purgatory.

I am sure that all the Catholics on this Forum who contend so well for their faith are aware of the Jesuit priest Fr Hardon (recently deceased.)  Fr Hardon has been one of the pre-eminent apologists of the Catholic Faith over the last 40 years.  His works are everywhere, on EWTN, etc., etc.

He flatly contradicts what you are saying....

"Writers in the Latin tradition are quite unanimous that the fire of purgatory is real and not metaphorical. They argue from the common teaching of the Latin Fathers, of some Greek Fathers, and of certain papal statements like that of Pope Innocent IV, who spoke of “a transitory fire” (DB 456)."

"The Doctrine of Purgatory"
by Fr. John A. Hardon, S.J.
http://www.therealpresence.org/archives/Eschatology/Eschatology_006.htm

It is true that this statement is contained in the article of Father Hardon on Purgatory. It is also true that Father Hardon is well respected in the Catholic Church. In the interests of fairness, please,  I recommend that people read the entire article. For example, we see that: “Although not defined doctrine, it is certain that the essential pain in purgatory is the pain of loss, because the souls are temporarily deprived of the beatific vision.” 
Logged
stanley123
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Roman Catholic
Posts: 3,809


« Reply #851 on: May 19, 2009, 02:31:50 PM »

Just to offer a reminder that the Summa Theologica of Thomas Aquinas is published with a Nihil Obstat and an Imprimatur.

"The same fire torments the damned in hell and the just in Purgatory" ~ Aquinas.
If we are going to quote St. Thomas Aquinas, then let's examine what he says about St. Gregory of Nyssa:"Further, Gregory of Nyssa [De iis qui in fide dormiunt] says: "If one who loves and believes in Christ," has failed to wash away his sins in this life, "he is set free after death by the fire of Purgatory." "
http://www.newadvent.org/summa/7001.htm
Logged
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,134


Truth, Justice, and the American way!


« Reply #852 on: May 19, 2009, 02:36:03 PM »

Also, in which council was it taught that it must be understood as a literal fire? In what magesterial document? Where? I have not seen an example yet.

It is said that the Greeks themselves unhesitatingly believe and maintain that the souls of those who do not perform a penance which they have received, or the souls of those who die free from mortal sins but with even the slightest venial sins, are purified after death and can be helped by the prayers of the Church.
Since the Greeks say that their Doctors have not given them a definite and proper name for the place of such purification, We, following the tradition and authority of the holy Fathers, call that place purgatory; and it is our will that the Greeks use that name in the future.
For sins are truly purified by that temporal fire — not grievous or capital sins which have not first been remitted by penance, but small and slight sins which remain a burden after death, if they have not been pardoned during life (DB, 456).
Pope Innocent IV
And why must this be taken to mean literal fire? Do you think Hell is literally fire?
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
stanley123
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Roman Catholic
Posts: 3,809


« Reply #853 on: May 19, 2009, 02:42:04 PM »

Here is a statement from St. Gregory of Nyssa. I think it comes from his Sermon on the Dead:
 "If a man distinguish in himself what is peculiarly human from that which is irrational, and if he be on the watch for a life of greater urbanity for himself, in this present life he will purify himself of any evil contracted, overcoming the irrational by reason. If he has inclined to the irrational pressure of the passions, using for the passions the cooperating hide of things irrational, he may afterward in a quite different manner be very much interested in what is better, when, after his departure out of the body, he gains knowledge of the difference between virtue and vice and finds that he is not able to partake of divinity until he has been purged of the filthy contagion in his soul by the purifying fire" :- Saint Gregory of Nyssa
Logged
Mickey
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Holy Orthodoxy
Posts: 1,309



« Reply #854 on: May 19, 2009, 02:44:37 PM »

Here is a statement from St. Gregory of Nyssa.

"Gregory the blessed priest of Nyssa, who, apparently, speaks more to your advantage than any of the other Fathers. Preserving all the respect due to this Father, we cannot refrain from noticing, that he was but a mortal man, and man, however great a degree of holiness he may attain, is very apt to err, especially on such subjects, which have not been examined before or determined upon in a general Council by the Fathers." The orthodox teachers, when speaking of Gregory, more than once restrict their words by the expression: "if such was his idea," and conclude their discussion upon Gregory with the following words: "we must view the general doctrine of the Church, and take the Holy Scripture as a rule for ourselves, nor paying attention to what each has written in his private capacity (idia)."
http://orthodoxinfo.com/death/stmark_purg.aspx

Logged
Tags: indulgences purgatory Hell forgiveness after death toll houses apokatastasis 
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 »   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.185 seconds with 73 queries.