OrthodoxChristianity.net
August 21, 2014, 06:15:47 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 »   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Indulgences, Temporal Punishment, Purgatory, etc  (Read 175915 times) Average Rating: 5
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
PoorFoolNicholas
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Theologoumenon
Posts: 1,664


« Reply #765 on: May 14, 2009, 03:30:43 PM »

So I am pretty much done with this thread. And I know exactly what all of you will say: "He's done because he can't prove his point. He's running away." Well that is not the real reason...
Yes it is. The only "proof" you have is a local synod, and the part that does deal with purgatory, as you term it, was RECANTED.
RECANTED.  transitive verb
1 : to withdraw or repudiate (a statement or belief) formally and publicly : renounce
2 : revoke
intransitive verb
: to make an open confession of error

You can run away now, because you really don't have anything else, if you do please, please, please, provide it.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2009, 03:31:11 PM by PoorFoolNicholas » Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,365



« Reply #766 on: May 14, 2009, 03:49:59 PM »

I guess the Vatican changes in the modern age too.

"Rome must not require more from the East with respect to the doctrine of primacy than had been formulated and was lived in the first millennium."
Joseph Ratzinger



Mickey, I must respectfully point out that when Cardinal Ratzinger wrote that, he was not the Pope and I disagree with him on this matter.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Michał
['mi:hɑʊ]
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic (again!)
Jurisdiction: the Latin Church
Posts: 824


"Mother of God, Virgin, by God glorified Mary..."


« Reply #767 on: May 14, 2009, 05:07:45 PM »

The EO church changed its mind as Jerusalem was a Panorthodox council.

Papist, what is your ailment? Ignorance or arogance? Or both? Is it so hard to understand that what is binding for EO, are decisions of Ecumenical Councils? Not pan-Orthodox councils. If someone said that the RCC changed because once one of your "infailabe" Roman popes declared something what you would consider today as heterodox or even heretical, you would probably say that that declaration have never been binding because this pope wasn't speaking ex cathedra. This is your rule and we try to respect it while having discussions with you. So, please, be so kind and respect our rule which says that infailable Orthodox decissions are those which were made on councils recognized by the Church as ecumenical.

And the fact that the council of Jerusalem was pan-Orthodox, so the majority of EO bishops at the time shared the ideas presented there, proves really nothing. There were moments when the majority of Christian hierarchs had arian or iconoclastic views but what matters is the fact that the Church has always managed to eventually defended its orthodoxy.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2009, 05:07:57 PM by Michał » Logged
Michał
['mi:hɑʊ]
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic (again!)
Jurisdiction: the Latin Church
Posts: 824


"Mother of God, Virgin, by God glorified Mary..."


« Reply #768 on: May 14, 2009, 05:30:49 PM »

This is not easy to believe
. For example, I read that the Eastern Orthodox Church has changed its teaching on contraception. In fact, in an earlier edition of one book, it was said that it was not OK, but in a later edition of the same book, it was approved, under certain circumstances.

Let me answer this one here: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,21230.msg320971.html#msg320971

Similarly,  the teaching of St. Paul on whether or not women are to wear headcovering in Church. Is it not true that the Orthodox Church has changed its teaching on that point?

My impression is that we are still adhering to this biblical teaching more than you are.
Logged
stanley123
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Roman Catholic
Posts: 3,809


« Reply #769 on: May 15, 2009, 12:32:19 AM »

My impression is that we are still adhering to this biblical teaching more than you are.
Yes, in Russia and in the mideast, many Orthodox women wear headcovering in Church. Not so much though in the USA, except for the Old Calendar people. I don't see them wearing headcovering in Catholic Churches, although in the SSPX Churches they do. But my observation was that it looks like there have been a few (not many though) changes in the Orthodox Church. For another example, the use of an organ during the liturgy. In the past, the rule was that except for bells, there was to be no musical instrumentation in the Church. When I asked the wife of the priest about this, I was told that people sing off key, and they need the organ to help them sing along on key.
Logged
Michał
['mi:hɑʊ]
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic (again!)
Jurisdiction: the Latin Church
Posts: 824


"Mother of God, Virgin, by God glorified Mary..."


« Reply #770 on: May 15, 2009, 05:02:35 AM »

Yes, in Russia and in the mideast, many Orthodox women wear headcovering in Church. Not so much though in the USA, except for the Old Calendar people. I don't see them wearing headcovering in Catholic Churches, although in the SSPX Churches they do. But my observation was that it looks like there have been a few (not many though) changes in the Orthodox Church. For another example, the use of an organ during the liturgy. In the past, the rule was that except for bells, there was to be no musical instrumentation in the Church. When I asked the wife of the priest about this, I was told that people sing off key, and they need the organ to help them sing along on key.

I hope you know the difference between changing faith and changing practice. The first one has never happened in the EO Church. The second happens from time to time but the examples you brought are not the case, I think. The rule concerning headcovering was not dropped off. It simply stopped being required to be obeyed so strictly (reason for that is, I guess, not to make the burden too heavy for converts). And the rule concerning absence of musical instruments during the Liturgy is still in force, although in some cases it was derestricted in order to save the beauty of the Liturgy.
Logged
AlexanderOfBergamo
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Traditionalist Christian
Jurisdiction: The Original First Millennium Church
Posts: 706


« Reply #771 on: May 15, 2009, 08:12:24 AM »

Minor changes in orthopraxis which don't touch faith and validity of the sacraments have always been allowed, especially when it increases the piety of the faithful and the intensity of the liturgy. Only the hierarchs can decide whether some "new" practice may be allowed or not.
There are enough proves that, when the sacraments are concerned, the form has been often changed dramatically, and the Church Fathers are a sufficient proof for that.
Faith is something different on this point. Only the ecumenical councils or a solid, continuous consent of the Church Fathers might allow a belief to be considered as official within the Orthodox Church. For example, the doctrines of the Trinity and the two natures of Jesus Christ have been formulated by the church in the Ecumenical Councils. Yet we consider prayers for the dead a well-established orthodox practice, since both the Church Fathers and the liturgical texts give a sufficient proof for it.
On the afterlife, as my brethrens repeatedly showed in vain to you RC's on this board, there are at least three or four alternative positions showed expressed by the Church Fathers on the afterlife.

1) There's heaven and hades. Heaven is a place of bliss, and hades a place of torment. This is the easiest reading of the Parable of Lazarus and Dives. Only tradition adds to this that some souls can be delivered by the prayers of the living.
2) There's a preliminary purification for everybody (apokatastasis) which automatically leads all to heaven. This doctrine of Origen seems to have been held partially or fully by st Basil and st Gregory of Nyssa, but the condemnations against Origen seem to have been naturally extended by theologians to apokatastasis too.
Quote
When, over long periods of time, evil has been removed and those now lying in sin have been restored to their original state, all creation will join in united thanksgiving, both those whose purification has involved punishment and those who never needed purification at all"
(Gregory of Nyssa, Catechetical Oration 26)
3) There's a preliminary purification for those going to paradise, akin to your purgatory. This is one of the "possible" interpretations, yet it seems that only st. Augustine and st. Gregory the Great subscribed to this belief at least in the first centuries.
Quote
"Each one will be presented to the Judge exactly as he was when he departed this life. Yet, there must be a cleansing fire before judgment, because of some minor faults that may remain to be purged away. Does not Christ, the Truth, say that if anyone blasphemes against the Holy Spirit he shall not be forgiven 'either in this world or in the world to come'(Mt. 12:32)? From this statement we learn that some sins can be forgiven in this world and some in the world to come. For, if forgiveness is refused for a particular sin, we conclude logically that it is granted for others. This must apply, as I said, to slight transgressions."
(Gregory the Great, Dialogues)

4) There's a particular judgment and expiation process named "toll-houses" before accessing either heaven or hades, where prayers for the dead are useful to deliver the souls of the dead from the power of devils. This is a very common belief of the great mystics of the East and was supported not only by st. John Damascene, Theophilus of Antioch and Athanasius; but also by some Greek and Slavonic liturgical texts.
Quote
"O Virgin, in the hour of death rescue me from the hands of the demons, and the judgment, and the accusations, and the frightful testing, and the bitter tollhouses and the fierce prince, and the eternal condemnation, O Theotokos."
(from the 8th canticle of the canon at Matins, by John of Damascus)

As you can see, purgatory is only one of the "possible" descriptions of the afterlife. Orthodoxy ordinarily supports positions 1) and 4), which aren't necessarily in contradiction but even complementary (since after the toll-houses both heaven and hades are identical to position #1). Some accept some other form of purification such as #3 and I don't think it's so dangerous but don't like it at all. Afterall, most of us Orthodox don't confess such a belief.
The RC definition of purgatory was a minority opinion among the Church Fathers and is now refused almost universally by all of the Orthodox and imposing it to the church would be a terrible error. The fact that the Council of Florence and Ferrara was never acted upon by the bishops (and the same can be said of the Panorthodox Synod of Jerusalem) is to me and many of us a sufficient proof that these are pseudocouncils and that the doctrines exposed therein should be analysed with extreme caution.

In Christ,   Alex
« Last Edit: May 15, 2009, 08:14:08 AM by AlexanderOfBergamo » Logged

"Also in the Catholic Church itself we take great care that we hold that which has been believed everywhere, always, by all. For that is truly and properly Catholic" (St. Vincent of Lérins, "The Commonitory")
Mickey
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Holy Orthodoxy
Posts: 1,309



« Reply #772 on: May 15, 2009, 08:35:34 AM »

The RC definition of purgatory was a minority opinion among the Church Fathers and is now refused almost universally by all of the Orthodox and imposing it to the church would be a terrible error.

And yet, all those in communion with Rome must accept this doctrine or be ex-communicated. Which is odd, because as an Eastern Catholic, I was told that we did not have to accept it as defined by Rome. Go figure!  Huh
Logged
AlexanderOfBergamo
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Traditionalist Christian
Jurisdiction: The Original First Millennium Church
Posts: 706


« Reply #773 on: May 15, 2009, 08:42:31 AM »

I can understand your disappointment, dear brother, since this is the same problem I felt staying Catholic for the last 25 years, not only on purgatory but especially the Immaculate Conception and Papal Infallibility. I couldn't figure out where they were getting these doctrines unsupported by both Scripture and Tradition, so I studied the subjects as intensively as I could until I fell in love with Orthodoxy.

Your unworthy brother in Christ,   Alex
Logged

"Also in the Catholic Church itself we take great care that we hold that which has been believed everywhere, always, by all. For that is truly and properly Catholic" (St. Vincent of Lérins, "The Commonitory")
Mickey
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Holy Orthodoxy
Posts: 1,309



« Reply #774 on: May 15, 2009, 09:51:13 AM »

I can understand your disappointment, dear brother, since this is the same problem I felt staying Catholic for the last 25 years, not only on purgatory but especially the Immaculate Conception and Papal Infallibility. I couldn't figure out where they were getting these doctrines unsupported by both Scripture and Tradition, so I studied the subjects as intensively as I could until I fell in love with Orthodoxy.

Your unworthy brother in Christ,   Alex

Amen, my brother.  Smiley
Logged
Mardukm
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 423


« Reply #775 on: May 16, 2009, 01:24:00 AM »

Dear brother Stanley,

I have a Filipina wife, and she tells me that the tradition of head covering is very much alive in the Philippines. It is the same in Latin American countries, and, generally, in more traditional societies all over the world.  It's non-use seems to be restricted to westernized nations.

So, it would not be true to say, as someone else claimed, that the Orthodox have retained this tradition "more" than the Catholic Church.

Blessings

My impression is that we are still adhering to this biblical teaching more than you are.
Yes, in Russia and in the mideast, many Orthodox women wear headcovering in Church. Not so much though in the USA, except for the Old Calendar people. I don't see them wearing headcovering in Catholic Churches, although in the SSPX Churches they do. But my observation was that it looks like there have been a few (not many though) changes in the Orthodox Church. For another example, the use of an organ during the liturgy. In the past, the rule was that except for bells, there was to be no musical instrumentation in the Church. When I asked the wife of the priest about this, I was told that people sing off key, and they need the organ to help them sing along on key.

Logged
Mardukm
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 423


« Reply #776 on: May 16, 2009, 01:29:27 AM »

Dear brother AlexanderOfBergamo,

When it comes to dogmatizing, the practice of the Church since the earliest times has been to include in its canons explicit proscriptions against certain heresies related to the teaching being dogmatized.  IOW, it not only positively accepts a teaching in its dogma, but simultaneously condemns any contrary teaching.  It is true that option#3 is dogmatized in the Catholic Church, but it is also true that options #1 and #4 have never been condemned (on the other hand, #2 has indeed been condemned).

Blessings

Minor changes in orthopraxis which don't touch faith and validity of the sacraments have always been allowed, especially when it increases the piety of the faithful and the intensity of the liturgy. Only the hierarchs can decide whether some "new" practice may be allowed or not.
There are enough proves that, when the sacraments are concerned, the form has been often changed dramatically, and the Church Fathers are a sufficient proof for that.
Faith is something different on this point. Only the ecumenical councils or a solid, continuous consent of the Church Fathers might allow a belief to be considered as official within the Orthodox Church. For example, the doctrines of the Trinity and the two natures of Jesus Christ have been formulated by the church in the Ecumenical Councils. Yet we consider prayers for the dead a well-established orthodox practice, since both the Church Fathers and the liturgical texts give a sufficient proof for it.
On the afterlife, as my brethrens repeatedly showed in vain to you RC's on this board, there are at least three or four alternative positions showed expressed by the Church Fathers on the afterlife.

1) There's heaven and hades. Heaven is a place of bliss, and hades a place of torment. This is the easiest reading of the Parable of Lazarus and Dives. Only tradition adds to this that some souls can be delivered by the prayers of the living.
2) There's a preliminary purification for everybody (apokatastasis) which automatically leads all to heaven. This doctrine of Origen seems to have been held partially or fully by st Basil and st Gregory of Nyssa, but the condemnations against Origen seem to have been naturally extended by theologians to apokatastasis too.
Quote
When, over long periods of time, evil has been removed and those now lying in sin have been restored to their original state, all creation will join in united thanksgiving, both those whose purification has involved punishment and those who never needed purification at all"
(Gregory of Nyssa, Catechetical Oration 26)
3) There's a preliminary purification for those going to paradise, akin to your purgatory. This is one of the "possible" interpretations, yet it seems that only st. Augustine and st. Gregory the Great subscribed to this belief at least in the first centuries.
Quote
"Each one will be presented to the Judge exactly as he was when he departed this life. Yet, there must be a cleansing fire before judgment, because of some minor faults that may remain to be purged away. Does not Christ, the Truth, say that if anyone blasphemes against the Holy Spirit he shall not be forgiven 'either in this world or in the world to come'(Mt. 12:32)? From this statement we learn that some sins can be forgiven in this world and some in the world to come. For, if forgiveness is refused for a particular sin, we conclude logically that it is granted for others. This must apply, as I said, to slight transgressions."
(Gregory the Great, Dialogues)

4) There's a particular judgment and expiation process named "toll-houses" before accessing either heaven or hades, where prayers for the dead are useful to deliver the souls of the dead from the power of devils. This is a very common belief of the great mystics of the East and was supported not only by st. John Damascene, Theophilus of Antioch and Athanasius; but also by some Greek and Slavonic liturgical texts.
Quote
"O Virgin, in the hour of death rescue me from the hands of the demons, and the judgment, and the accusations, and the frightful testing, and the bitter tollhouses and the fierce prince, and the eternal condemnation, O Theotokos."
(from the 8th canticle of the canon at Matins, by John of Damascus)

As you can see, purgatory is only one of the "possible" descriptions of the afterlife. Orthodoxy ordinarily supports positions 1) and 4), which aren't necessarily in contradiction but even complementary (since after the toll-houses both heaven and hades are identical to position #1). Some accept some other form of purification such as #3 and I don't think it's so dangerous but don't like it at all. Afterall, most of us Orthodox don't confess such a belief.
The RC definition of purgatory was a minority opinion among the Church Fathers and is now refused almost universally by all of the Orthodox and imposing it to the church would be a terrible error. The fact that the Council of Florence and Ferrara was never acted upon by the bishops (and the same can be said of the Panorthodox Synod of Jerusalem) is to me and many of us a sufficient proof that these are pseudocouncils and that the doctrines exposed therein should be analysed with extreme caution.

In Christ,   Alex
Logged
AlexanderOfBergamo
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Traditionalist Christian
Jurisdiction: The Original First Millennium Church
Posts: 706


« Reply #777 on: May 16, 2009, 07:23:11 AM »

Dear brother Mardukm,
I must say that indeed those positions have never been condemned, but as you might maybe understand, is difficult to conceil #1 and #4 to your understanding of the afterlife. For example, the toll-houses evidently mirror the idea of two only destinations, heaven and hades, immediately after the series of trial. No room for a purgatory, indeed. And the same can be said of #1, as by definition none of those in hades can get out of it towards paradise (Jesus clearly states this) at least by their own will and power. The Church expresses that indeed prayers for the dead deliver the souls from hades, but no purgatorial fire would ever act upon the souls of hades.
Anyway, I was very surprised when reading the Appendix on purgatory in the Summa Theologiae, Thomas Aquinas (or better, one of his disciples) wrote that purgatory and limbo were considered parts of the same place... indeed a concept similar to the "abodes in hades". The only error from our perspective is the direct effect of purgatorial fire, which to us is heresy and to you is dogma.

In Christ,   Alex
Logged

"Also in the Catholic Church itself we take great care that we hold that which has been believed everywhere, always, by all. For that is truly and properly Catholic" (St. Vincent of Lérins, "The Commonitory")
stanley123
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Roman Catholic
Posts: 3,809


« Reply #778 on: May 16, 2009, 02:01:41 PM »

The only error from our perspective is the direct effect of purgatorial fire, which to us is heresy and to you is dogma.

It is difficult to understand why this would be a heresy, since it has been declared already by the Orthodox bishops that for moderate and forgivable sins, a soul may be released from hades and in Matthew 25, Jesus mentions two places and for the place which is not heaven, if you are going to call it hades, then it has fire according to Him. 
Logged
Mardukm
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 423


« Reply #779 on: May 16, 2009, 02:36:34 PM »

Dear brother Alex,

The only error from our perspective is the direct effect of purgatorial fire, which to us is heresy and to you is dogma.
I am an Oriental Catholic.  I reject, as a Catholic and Oriental, the notion (1) of Purgatorial fire, (2) of penal punishment in Purgatory, (3) of Purgatory as a place, and (4) of the accounting of time for punishment in Purgatory.  The only thing I am bound to accept to be Catholic is (1) that there exists a state of remedial punishment or cleansing for righteous souls, (2) the prayers of the Church, especially the Sacrifice, aids in the prefection of souls in Purgatory.  In fact, this is all that the DOGMA of Purgatory asserts.  It does not contain, as already stated, any proscriptions against what NOT to believe (such as your choices #1 and #4 above). There are several particularly Latin theologoumena about Purgatory which many think are part of the dogma.  Latins use the misunderstanding to impose their theologoumena on others.  Non-Latins use the misunderstanding to reject Purgatory altogether.  Both are wrong since they are based on wrong premises.

As far as reconciling #1 and #3, I have often heard from Latins that Purgatory is considered a PART of heaven.

As far as reconciling #4 and #3, though I am not an Eastern, I gather "toll houses" and "purgatory" (the dogma, that is, not the various theologoumena) can conceivably be interchanged.

What do you think?

Blessings
Logged
Michał
['mi:hɑʊ]
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic (again!)
Jurisdiction: the Latin Church
Posts: 824


"Mother of God, Virgin, by God glorified Mary..."


« Reply #780 on: May 16, 2009, 02:40:51 PM »

. . .in Matthew 25, Jesus mentions two places and for the place which is not heaven, if you are going to call it hades, then it has fire according to Him.

We are not going to call it hades, because it is not hades but gehenna.
Logged
stanley123
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Roman Catholic
Posts: 3,809


« Reply #781 on: May 16, 2009, 03:05:21 PM »

. . .in Matthew 25, Jesus mentions two places and for the place which is not heaven, if you are going to call it hades, then it has fire according to Him.

We are not going to call it hades, because it is not hades but gehenna.
It is true that there are differences between Latin and Greek understanding of what happens to those with moderate and forgivable sins, but i don't see that they are all that big, at least that is my perception of the situation with reference to Purgatory. I would say that the big issues dividing Catholics and Orthodox are the issue of papal infallibility, and also there is a problem with the current Catholic liturgical practices which in many cases are not up to par with respect to the reverence that we see at the Orthodox services.
Logged
Michał
['mi:hɑʊ]
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic (again!)
Jurisdiction: the Latin Church
Posts: 824


"Mother of God, Virgin, by God glorified Mary..."


« Reply #782 on: May 16, 2009, 03:17:08 PM »

. . .there is a problem with the current Catholic liturgical practices which in many cases are not up to par with respect to the reverence that we see at the Orthodox services.

I hope the New Liturgical Movement (http://www.newliturgicalmovement.org) will manage to fix it.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2009, 03:20:56 PM by Michał » Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #783 on: May 16, 2009, 03:34:34 PM »


As far as reconciling #4 and #3, though I am not an Eastern, I gather "toll houses" and "purgatory" (the dogma, that is, not the various theologoumena) can conceivably be interchanged.

What do you think?

I don't think they can be interchanged, although it's conceivable that the tollhouse belief is an offshoot of purgatory.

The toll houses are not a method of purgation but of judgement.  Unlike purgatory they are ONLY for the Orthodox -the non-Orthodox are taken to hell immediately upon death; they do not go through the toll houses (See the revelation of Saint Theodora.)  The toll houses can also also bring about damnation for the Orthodox who ought to have been saved - either because you do not have enough good works to outweigh each of the 20 sins on which you are interrogated or because the tricky black Ethiopians (not my terminology but part of the tollhouse tradition) who man them can make you fall into a new sin after death and take you off to hell.  You begin to see why they are not interchangeable with purgatory?

I see them as a pernicious theory and a cause of aberration in Orthodox soteriology.  This negative appraisal was the "tradition" I received from my spiritual father at the holy monastery of Zica and from my bishop who taught me to see them in this way.
 
 
In January and February 2003 we had an Archpriest from Irkutsk, Fr Rodion Sivtsev, in our Wellington, New Zealand parish. He is back in Irkutsk where he is first priest at the Theophany (Bogoyavlenski) cathedral. We keep in touch via e-mail and I decided to ask him his opinion of the toll-houses. He is a serious man given to conciseness and he sent back a brief answer...

 
"The opinion about the toll-houses among the people
is quite positive and they love to talk about them.
But among the clergy and theologians there are diverse
opinions, and they consider them to be a uniate-catholic
influence stemming from purgatory."


So there is no consensus in Russia. It is seems impossible to say that this is a "universal" and "non-debatable" tradition. Even in Russia it is opposed.


Logged
AlexanderOfBergamo
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Traditionalist Christian
Jurisdiction: The Original First Millennium Church
Posts: 706


« Reply #784 on: May 17, 2009, 05:17:18 PM »

Quote
The only thing I am bound to accept to be Catholic is (1) that there exists a state of remedial punishment or cleansing for righteous souls, (2) the prayers of the Church, especially the Sacrifice, aids in the prefection of souls in Purgatory.  In fact, this is all that the DOGMA of Purgatory asserts.
That's why I don't believe in Purgatory: I don't believe in any "state of remedial punishment or cleansing for righteous souls". I believe and confess there's no cleansing energy, fire, punishment or whatever instrument of torment after death for me. It's prayers for the dead which entirely do the liberation process. They are not an aid; they're the only and direct instrument of the process. My personal opinion of course; but since the orthodox church allows me to believe it and imposes me no specific doctrine, while your church bound me to the doctrine of purgatory, I'm very happy and glad to have changed my mind on the subject.
And since the "full" doctrine of purgatory (including purgatorial fire) is part of the Latin official doctrine, but binding only for the Westeners, how do you think I should feel as a "Latin" myself? I'm Italian and I'd belong (by birth) to the Latin Catholic Church. Under this church it is not only official, but even binding to believe such things. Am I going to travel to Greece so that I might believe whatever I want?
That's not dialogue, and even not compromise; that's a false charitable act the Pope uses as an instrument to preserve a fake unity within Catholicism and attract unprepared Orthodox Christians in this trap.

Sorry for the tone I might have used; I've got nothing against you brother... I'm only against your hierarchy in Old Rome.

In Christ,   Alex
Logged

"Also in the Catholic Church itself we take great care that we hold that which has been believed everywhere, always, by all. For that is truly and properly Catholic" (St. Vincent of Lérins, "The Commonitory")
stanley123
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Roman Catholic
Posts: 3,809


« Reply #785 on: May 18, 2009, 12:42:49 AM »

And since the "full" doctrine of purgatory (including purgatorial fire) is part of the Latin official doctrine, but binding only for the Westeners, how do you think I should feel as a "Latin" myself?
I was reading a book which said that purgatorial fire is not part of the official doctrine required for belief of Catholics. Could you kindly provide a link which shows that this book was wrong and that you are right in your statement that it is part of the Latin official doctrine as you have stated here?
Logged
Alveus Lacuna
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,832



« Reply #786 on: May 18, 2009, 12:52:49 AM »

Even in Russia it is opposed.

If Holy Russia opposes, then I oppose!
Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #787 on: May 18, 2009, 02:08:29 AM »

I was reading a book which said that purgatorial fire is not part of the official doctrine required for belief of Catholics. Could you kindly provide a link which shows that this book was wrong and that you are right in your statement that it is part of the Latin official doctrine as you have stated here?

The Roman Catholic approach to Tradition is notoriouslyy unstable.  Beliefs which have been promulgated by Popes and the Magisterium for centuries and piously believed by the faithful may be altered virtually overnight  -if they have not had an "official" promulgation at some stage.  "Official" promulgations trimph over the traditional beliefs of the Catholic Church.

-oOo-

 It was Pope Gregory in the seventh century who elevated the opinion of the earlier thinkers into a more or less formulated doctrine: "Purgatorial fire will cleanse every elect soul before they come into the Last Judgement." So began the divergent thought that developed over the course of centuries between the Byzantines and Latins.

The Eastern Christian world retained a simpler doctrine of the afterlife that maintained that the souls of the elect, even those who were not particularly holy, would be retained in "a place of light, a place of refreshment, a place from which all sorrow and sighing have been banished." This view reflected the statement in Revelation 14:13 that "those who die in the Lord rest from their labors." In short, the state of afterlife as it was envisaged in the Eastern church was generally a happy and restful condition in which the departed souls of the faithful were not divorced from God, but waited on Judgment Day with hopeful anticipation, as the time when they would be admitted to a transfigured and paradisial condition in proximity to God. [This remains the tradition of the Eastern Orthodox.]

The Latin church, on the other hand, developed its doctrine of purgatory with a more marked stress on that state of painful purification that would attend the souls of all those who had not reached a state of purity before their death.


Modern Roman Catholic theology, after Trent, has clearly moved away from emphasizing the purifying pains of purgatorial fire and instead highlights the need for the living to commemorate the dead who have preceded them.

http://www.deathreference.com/Nu-Pu/Purgatory.html

-oOo-

Logged
LBK
Moderated
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 10,483


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #788 on: May 18, 2009, 05:24:51 AM »

Quote
"a place of light, a place of refreshment, a place from which all sorrow and sighing have been banished."

Thank you for this, Father. After "Eternal Memory", this is perhaps the best-known passage of the funeral and memorial (panikhida, mnemosyno) services among Orthodox laity and it is sung at every such service, be it for the soul of an individual, or as part of a group commemoration, such as the Saturdays for the Souls of Great Lent and other times of the year. Yet another case of the liturgical tradition of the Church reflecting and proclaiming the consensus patrum.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2009, 05:27:30 AM by LBK » Logged
AlexanderOfBergamo
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Traditionalist Christian
Jurisdiction: The Original First Millennium Church
Posts: 706


« Reply #789 on: May 18, 2009, 07:23:06 AM »

I repeat, dear stanley123: even a figurative understanding of purgatorial fire seems to be foreign to Orthodoxy. I believe that there's no agent or state of purification as you as Eastern Catholics are also bound to believe. I think that a more neutral position like the Orthodox is the best choice, and reject everything added to that vague but at least certain doctrine of the Church.
As you can see, I believe in the toll-houses (although understanding them as a parable for the Personal Judgment), yet I don't consider my brothers and sisters in Christ to be in error when they think it's a gnostic theory. We are both defending our personal opinions, but none of them has ever been anathematized. On the contrary, dogmatizing the concept of a purgatorial state is in itself something binding... there's no room enough for personal opinion and it doesn't nourish our souls for our salvation.

In Christ,    Alex
Logged

"Also in the Catholic Church itself we take great care that we hold that which has been believed everywhere, always, by all. For that is truly and properly Catholic" (St. Vincent of Lérins, "The Commonitory")
Dan-Romania
Moderated
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Eastern Orthodox
Posts: 746


« Reply #790 on: May 18, 2009, 09:01:13 AM »

For who didn`t read , i urge you to read Elder Cleopa ,About Hell , he mentions the works(punishments) of hell wich are of nine categories , i think that is one of the best perspectives about Hell or Hades we in Romanian only have Iad as word . Here is the link : http://translate.google.ro/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=ro&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sfaturiortodoxe.ro%2Fortodox%2Fdespreiad.htm&sl=ro&tl=en&history_state0=&swap=1&swap=1 and a useful link about Ilie Cleopa : http://www.sfaturiortodoxe.ro/orthodox/orthodox_advices_cleopa_life.htm .
Logged

This user no longer posts here.
Mickey
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Holy Orthodoxy
Posts: 1,309



« Reply #791 on: May 18, 2009, 09:12:23 AM »

while your church bound me to the doctrine of purgatory

And herein lies the problem. The Latin Church has chained their faithful to many post schism doctrinal innovations that were not taught by the holy fathers.
Logged
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Online Online

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,182


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #792 on: May 18, 2009, 09:13:11 AM »

I was reading a book which said that purgatorial fire is not part of the official doctrine required for belief of Catholics. Could you kindly provide a link which shows that this book was wrong and that you are right in your statement that it is part of the Latin official doctrine as you have stated here?

The Roman Catholic approach to Tradition is notoriouslyy unstable.  Beliefs which have been promulgated by Popes and the Magisterium for centuries and piously believed by the faithful may be altered virtually overnight  -if they have not had an "official" promulgation at some stage.  "Official" promulgations trimph over the traditional beliefs of the Catholic Church.

-oOo-

 It was Pope Gregory in the seventh century who elevated the opinion of the earlier thinkers into a more or less formulated doctrine: "Purgatorial fire will cleanse every elect soul before they come into the Last Judgement." So began the divergent thought that developed over the course of centuries between the Byzantines and Latins.

The Eastern Christian world retained a simpler doctrine of the afterlife that maintained that the souls of the elect, even those who were not particularly holy, would be retained in "a place of light, a place of refreshment, a place from which all sorrow and sighing have been banished." This view reflected the statement in Revelation 14:13 that "those who die in the Lord rest from their labors." In short, the state of afterlife as it was envisaged in the Eastern church was generally a happy and restful condition in which the departed souls of the faithful were not divorced from God, but waited on Judgment Day with hopeful anticipation, as the time when they would be admitted to a transfigured and paradisial condition in proximity to God. [This remains the tradition of the Eastern Orthodox.]

The Latin church, on the other hand, developed its doctrine of purgatory with a more marked stress on that state of painful purification that would attend the souls of all those who had not reached a state of purity before their death.


Modern Roman Catholic theology, after Trent, has clearly moved away from emphasizing the purifying pains of purgatorial fire and instead highlights the need for the living to commemorate the dead who have preceded them.

http://www.deathreference.com/Nu-Pu/Purgatory.html

-oOo-


This is where you debate tactics become dishonest. You know quite well that fire is used symbolically to represent purifying suffereing. Tsk tsk tsk.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Online Online

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,182


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #793 on: May 18, 2009, 09:14:02 AM »

while your church bound me to the doctrine of purgatory

And herein lies the problem. The Latin Church has chained their faithful to many post schism doctrinal innovations that were not taught by the holy fathers.
Blah blah blah... "post schism"... blah, blah, blah "innovations"...


Broken record perhaps?
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Mickey
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Holy Orthodoxy
Posts: 1,309



« Reply #794 on: May 18, 2009, 09:28:10 AM »

Broken record perhaps?

Nope...broken Latin theology.
Logged
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Online Online

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,182


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #795 on: May 18, 2009, 09:29:12 AM »

Broken record perhaps?

Nope...broken Latin theology.
Nope. You just think by throwing polemical phrases around you actually prove your point, which you simply do not.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
LBK
Moderated
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 10,483


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #796 on: May 18, 2009, 09:58:38 AM »

This is where you debate tactics become dishonest. You know quite well that fire is used symbolically to represent purifying suffering. Tsk tsk tsk.

My dear Papist, "fire" is used in a great many ways and senses: from a fire of blazing divine Love, to a fire of zeal for God, to fire as a source of torment for the unrepentant. I repeat my earlier post:

Quote
"a place of light, a place of refreshment, a place from which all sorrow and sighing have been banished."

Thank you for this, Father. After "Eternal Memory", this is perhaps the best-known passage of the funeral and memorial (panikhida, mnemosyno) services among Orthodox laity and it is sung at every such service, be it for the soul of an individual, or as part of a group commemoration, such as the Saturdays for the Souls of Great Lent and other times of the year. Yet another case of the liturgical tradition of the Church reflecting and proclaiming the consensus patrum.

The Orthodox Church's deposit of the consensus patrum is found within its liturgical deposit. The post I have reproduced above should be self-explanatory from the Orthodox perspective. What does the liturgical deposit of your church say? In other words, if the RCC holds that its liturgical deposit reflects and proclaims the consensus patrum of the Roman Catholic church, what do the funeral and requiem services say about the fate of the soul(s) of the departed?
Logged
Mickey
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Holy Orthodoxy
Posts: 1,309



« Reply #797 on: May 18, 2009, 10:22:42 AM »

Nope. You just think by throwing polemical phrases around you actually prove your point, which you simply do not.

I, of myself, prove nothing.  It is Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition which shows that there is no grounds for many of the Latin innovations.
Logged
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Online Online

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,182


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #798 on: May 18, 2009, 10:26:40 AM »

Nope. You just think by throwing polemical phrases around you actually prove your point, which you simply do not.

I, of myself, prove nothing.  It is Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition which shows that there is no grounds for many of the Latin innovations.
More polemical nonsense. Its the sacred scriptures and tradition which show that purgatory should be a teaching of the EO church if you really wanted to confrom to reality. Of course, there was a time when the EO church did teach the doctrine of purgatory... But later they changed their minds.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
LBK
Moderated
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 10,483


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #799 on: May 18, 2009, 10:43:02 AM »

Nope. You just think by throwing polemical phrases around you actually prove your point, which you simply do not.

I, of myself, prove nothing.  It is Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition which shows that there is no grounds for many of the Latin innovations.
More polemical nonsense. Its the sacred scriptures and tradition which show that purgatory should be a teaching of the EO church if you really wanted to confrom to reality. Of course, there was a time when the EO church did teach the doctrine of purgatory... But later they changed their minds.

Dear Papist, have you read my post #796 on this thread?
Logged
Mickey
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Holy Orthodoxy
Posts: 1,309



« Reply #800 on: May 18, 2009, 10:48:02 AM »

Its the sacred scriptures and tradition which show that purgatory should be a teaching of the EO church

ROTFL!!! Good one!
Logged
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Online Online

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,182


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #801 on: May 18, 2009, 10:59:44 AM »

Its the sacred scriptures and tradition which show that purgatory should be a teaching of the EO church

ROTFL!!! Good one!
I know. Unlike you my points are good points.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
LBK
Moderated
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 10,483


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #802 on: May 18, 2009, 11:01:29 AM »

Its the sacred scriptures and tradition which show that purgatory should be a teaching of the EO church

ROTFL!!! Good one!
I know. Unlike you my points are good points.

No answer to my request?
Logged
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Online Online

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,182


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #803 on: May 18, 2009, 11:02:06 AM »

This is where you debate tactics become dishonest. You know quite well that fire is used symbolically to represent purifying suffering. Tsk tsk tsk.

My dear Papist, "fire" is used in a great many ways and senses: from a fire of blazing divine Love, to a fire of zeal for God, to fire as a source of torment for the unrepentant. I repeat my earlier post:

Quote
"a place of light, a place of refreshment, a place from which all sorrow and sighing have been banished."

Thank you for this, Father. After "Eternal Memory", this is perhaps the best-known passage of the funeral and memorial (panikhida, mnemosyno) services among Orthodox laity and it is sung at every such service, be it for the soul of an individual, or as part of a group commemoration, such as the Saturdays for the Souls of Great Lent and other times of the year. Yet another case of the liturgical tradition of the Church reflecting and proclaiming the consensus patrum.

The Orthodox Church's deposit of the consensus patrum is found within its liturgical deposit. The post I have reproduced above should be self-explanatory from the Orthodox perspective. What does the liturgical deposit of your church say? In other words, if the RCC holds that its liturgical deposit reflects and proclaims the consensus patrum of the Roman Catholic church, what do the funeral and requiem services say about the fate of the soul(s) of the departed?
I suspect the context of Fr. Ambrose's infromation will be helpful. Do you know where I can read about your liturgies concerning this matter?
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Mickey
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Holy Orthodoxy
Posts: 1,309



« Reply #804 on: May 18, 2009, 11:02:13 AM »

my points are good points.

I'm sure you believe that.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2009, 11:04:32 AM by Mickey » Logged
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Online Online

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,182


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #805 on: May 18, 2009, 11:04:03 AM »

my points are good points.

ROTFL!!! An even better one!  laugh
I know. I get better and better all the time while you continue to descend deeper into nonsensical polemics.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Mickey
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Holy Orthodoxy
Posts: 1,309



« Reply #806 on: May 18, 2009, 11:08:17 AM »

I get better and better all the time

...those who are a law unto themselves cannot escape conceit.
St. Gregory of Sinai
Logged
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Online Online

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,182


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #807 on: May 18, 2009, 11:10:53 AM »

I get better and better all the time

...those who are a law unto themselves cannot escape conceit.
St. Gregory of Sinai
That's a good quote for you to reflect upon concerning your behavior.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Mickey
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Holy Orthodoxy
Posts: 1,309



« Reply #808 on: May 18, 2009, 11:14:01 AM »

That's a good quote for you to reflect upon concerning your behavior.

Indeed! Pride is a terrible passion.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2009, 11:14:24 AM by Mickey » Logged
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Online Online

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,182


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #809 on: May 18, 2009, 11:17:25 AM »

That's a good quote for you to reflect upon concerning your behavior.

Indeed! Pride is a terrible passion.
I know. I will pray for you.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Tags: indulgences purgatory Hell forgiveness after death toll houses apokatastasis 
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 »   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.158 seconds with 73 queries.