Dan-Romania
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« Reply #630 on: May 05, 2009, 03:02:54 PM » |
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The idea of the existence of a purgatorium outside of hell , i judge it to be incorrect . There is no middle way : hell purgatorium and heaven . Althought the possibility of people being moved or transfer from Hell to heaven exist , in my perspective . But this before the Last Judgement . I believe in the power of prayers and fasting , intercessions for the death , i believe they can grant salvation , the ones that use to be in grace with God but didn`t died reconciliated with Him . Or I believe how a elder romanian said in an interview : That if a priest is born in someone family , if his family is in hell all the family can be redeem trough him from hell untill the 7 family . I believe hell exists and hell is Hades the house of the death and sheol , were people are tormented for their sins . I don`t believe in a separate existance of Purgatorio from Hell . God have mercy.
What happens to people who have unrepented lesser sins, such as mentioned above? At the funeral the priest says , forgive his sins made from knowledge and anknowledge , what he sinned with the word , the mind and with the flesh . Paul says that before the law the sins are not counted , cause the sins are discovered by the Law . Let`s not forget the most important thing , Jesus paid the price.Jesus absolve us from blame . He died for all our sins , not just one . Those who die without having a relantionship with God , hmmm i think for those is harder , for those who turn away from the Way , the way they did . It is easier for those who comeback . But God`s grace is unreachable , and the humans don`t know His boundaries . God`s mercy if from eternity . Righteouss and justice is from eternity . This are the walls on wich the world was build . |
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"I believe because it is impossible"
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ialmisry
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« Reply #631 on: May 05, 2009, 03:27:22 PM » |
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^ Yet we find it in the council of Jerusalem. So then, is the council of Jerusalem a heretical council from an EO perspective?
St. Mark spoke from, in and to the perspective of Orthodoxy. Dositheos was railing against your Calvinist siblings (whose catechism was mandatory in Orthodox Transylvania, thanks to the Calvinist ruler), and borrowed an argument from the Vatican, for the simple reason that the Orthodox didn't really have a dog in the fight between the Calvinists and the Vatican (proven by the Calvinist rulers and Latin elite in Transylvania trying to bulk up their rule with the Orthodox masses), but the Calvinists were more wrong on this issue. Dositheus wrote a LOT more than the Confession adopted at Jerusalem. Maybe a little context would do you some good.... |
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« Last Edit: May 05, 2009, 03:28:35 PM by ialmisry »
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
and both come out of your mouth
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Papist
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« Reply #632 on: May 05, 2009, 04:45:42 PM » |
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^ Yet we find it in the council of Jerusalem. So then, is the council of Jerusalem a heretical council from an EO perspective?
St. Mark spoke from, in and to the perspective of Orthodoxy. Dositheos was railing against your Calvinist siblings (whose catechism was mandatory in Orthodox Transylvania, thanks to the Calvinist ruler), and borrowed an argument from the Vatican, for the simple reason that the Orthodox didn't really have a dog in the fight between the Calvinists and the Vatican (proven by the Calvinist rulers and Latin elite in Transylvania trying to bulk up their rule with the Orthodox masses), but the Calvinists were more wrong on this issue. Dositheus wrote a LOT more than the Confession adopted at Jerusalem. Maybe a little context would do you some good.... And yet my question remains unanswered. Was the council of Jerusalem heretical? |
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"The only-begotten Son of God, wanting us to be partakers of his divinity, assumed our human nature so that, having become man, he might make men gods." - St. Thomas Aquinas
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stanley123
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« Reply #633 on: May 05, 2009, 04:56:03 PM » |
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The idea of the existence of a purgatorium outside of hell , i judge it to be incorrect . There is no middle way : hell purgatorium and heaven . Althought the possibility of people being moved or transfer from Hell to heaven exist , in my perspective . But this before the Last Judgement . I believe in the power of prayers and fasting , intercessions for the death , i believe they can grant salvation , the ones that use to be in grace with God but didn`t died reconciliated with Him . Or I believe how a elder romanian said in an interview : That if a priest is born in someone family , if his family is in hell all the family can be redeem trough him from hell untill the 7 family . I believe hell exists and hell is Hades the house of the death and sheol , were people are tormented for their sins . I don`t believe in a separate existance of Purgatorio from Hell . God have mercy.
What happens to people who have unrepented lesser sins, such as mentioned above? Let`s not forget the most important thing , Jesus paid the price.Jesus absolve us from blame . He died for all our sins , not just one . Yes, but you do agree that there is a hell as mentioned in Matthew 25? So there is punishment for our sins. To my mind it is only reasonable that if there is eternal punishment for greater sins, as mentioned in Scripture, then this would hold for the lesser sins, but only to a lesser degree. That is what makes sense to me. I don't see a person going to hell for not returning ten cents overchange that he had received from a busy clerk in the supermarket, especially if he has to wait in a long line to return this amount. I see lesser sins as deserving of a lesser punishment than hell, and so to me the teaching on Purgatory makes sense. |
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PoorFoolNicholas
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« Reply #634 on: May 05, 2009, 09:10:42 PM » |
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I see lesser sins as deserving of a lesser punishment than hell, and so to me the teaching on Purgatory makes sense. We, as Orthodox, don't proscribe to the notion that one can "rank" sins in this way. |
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ialmisry
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« Reply #635 on: May 05, 2009, 09:48:35 PM » |
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^ Yet we find it in the council of Jerusalem. So then, is the council of Jerusalem a heretical council from an EO perspective?
St. Mark spoke from, in and to the perspective of Orthodoxy. Dositheos was railing against your Calvinist siblings (whose catechism was mandatory in Orthodox Transylvania, thanks to the Calvinist ruler), and borrowed an argument from the Vatican, for the simple reason that the Orthodox didn't really have a dog in the fight between the Calvinists and the Vatican (proven by the Calvinist rulers and Latin elite in Transylvania trying to bulk up their rule with the Orthodox masses), but the Calvinists were more wrong on this issue. Dositheus wrote a LOT more than the Confession adopted at Jerusalem. Maybe a little context would do you some good.... And yet my question remains unanswered. Was the council of Jerusalem heretical? No, it's not heretical. And no, it's not Orthodox. Happy? |
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
and both come out of your mouth
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stanley123
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« Reply #636 on: May 05, 2009, 10:49:56 PM » |
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I see lesser sins as deserving of a lesser punishment than hell, and so to me the teaching on Purgatory makes sense. We, as Orthodox, don't proscribe to the notion that one can "rank" sins in this way. That is difficult for me to understand. Yes, I can see where in some sense, each sin is infinitely wrong since it is an offense against an infinite God. However, there is another sense in which it appears obvious to me, that some sins are very seriously wrong, whereas some other sins are lesser. Suppose you were to burn down the house of a widow and kidnap and harm her children. I see this as seriously wrong. a mortal sin. On the other hand, if you did not return ten cents in overchange given at a supermarket, or you grumbled about your work load at the office, I see this as a venial sin. One deserves hell, the other deserves Purgatory, as far as I can see. I guess then that this would be one of those differences between Catholic and Orthodox which would keep the two Churches apart? |
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stanley123
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« Reply #637 on: May 05, 2009, 10:56:07 PM » |
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And yet my question remains unanswered. Was the council of Jerusalem heretical?
No, it's not heretical. And no, it's not Orthodox. Happy? I am not too happy about it, but let's see if at least I understand the point. From what you have said then, would it be correct to say that according to the Orthodox teaching: Purgatory is not a heresy But Purgatory is not in the Orthodox tradition or understanding of the afterlife? |
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« Last Edit: May 05, 2009, 10:58:12 PM by stanley123 »
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ialmisry
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« Reply #638 on: May 05, 2009, 11:37:05 PM » |
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And yet my question remains unanswered. Was the council of Jerusalem heretical?
No, it's not heretical. And no, it's not Orthodox. Happy? I am not too happy about it, but let's see if at least I understand the point. From what you have said then, would it be correct to say that according to the Orthodox teaching: Purgatory is not a heresy But Purgatory is not in the Orthodox tradition or understanding of the afterlife? No, it's heretical, but less so than this: We believe that the souls of the dead are either in blessedness or in damnation, according as every one has done, for as soon as they move out of the body they pass either to Christ or into hell; for as a man is found at his death, so he is judged, and after this life there is neither power nor opportunity to repent; in this life there is a time of grace, they therefore who be justified here shall suffer no punishment hereafter; but they who die, being not justified, are appointed for everlasting punishment. By which it is evident that the fiction of Purgatory is not to be admitted but in the truth it is determined that every one ought to repent in this life and to obtain remission of his sins by our Lord Jesus Christ, if he will be saved. And, let this be the end. http://www.crivoice.org/creedcyril.html |
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
and both come out of your mouth
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Irish Hermit
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« Reply #639 on: May 06, 2009, 12:41:35 AM » |
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But have you considered the fact that God's punishment in purgatory is just for our correction, or purification?
The belief that there is punishment in purgatory is an erroneous one in contemporary Catholic teaching. It may even be heretical? There is no disputing that in the centuries prior to Vatican II Catholics (Popes, bishops, clergy, faithful, Saints and theologians) did believe in the punishment and the terror and suffering inflicted on souls in purgatory. Today that is said to have been a popular but erroneous teaching. One is not allowed to go beyond the definition of purgatory in the Catechism iof the Catholic Church.
210. What is purgatory?
Purgatory is the state of those who die in God’s friendship, assured of their eternal salvation, but who still have need of purification to enter into the happiness of heaven. Looking at this from my perspective, I don;t see how anyone would go to hell for many of the lesser sins which we commit. Still, these sins deserve some sort of reprimand and this is where Purgatory makes sense. Except for the fact that the official teaching of the Catholic Church is that purgatory is not for the purpose of punishment or reprimand but for purification. |
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stanley123
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« Reply #640 on: May 06, 2009, 03:06:38 AM » |
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Except for the fact that the official teaching of the Catholic Church is that purgatory is not for the purpose of punishment or reprimand but for purification.
Perhaps then my articulation was inaccurate, and not up to the high level of erudite theological discourse found on this forum. I fear that this might mean that I am guilty of heresy in both the Catholic Church and in the Orthodox Church? |
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lubeltri
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« Reply #641 on: May 06, 2009, 03:38:32 AM » |
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Except for the fact that the official teaching of the Catholic Church is that purgatory is not for the purpose of punishment or reprimand but for purification.
Perhaps then my articulation was inaccurate, and not up to the high level of erudite theological discourse found on this forum. I fear that this might mean that I am guilty of heresy in both the Catholic Church and in the Orthodox Church? You're fine, Stanley. God's punishment is corrective. Thus punishment and purification are two different words explaining the same thing. The things of God are beyond the limits of human language, and more than one concept is often need to describe them. Look at all the different ways Catholics explain the Atonement. They are all true in different ways. |
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Dan-Romania
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« Reply #642 on: May 06, 2009, 05:32:22 AM » |
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The idea of the existence of a purgatorium outside of hell , i judge it to be incorrect . There is no middle way : hell purgatorium and heaven . Althought the possibility of people being moved or transfer from Hell to heaven exist , in my perspective . But this before the Last Judgement . I believe in the power of prayers and fasting , intercessions for the death , i believe they can grant salvation , the ones that use to be in grace with God but didn`t died reconciliated with Him . Or I believe how a elder romanian said in an interview : That if a priest is born in someone family , if his family is in hell all the family can be redeem trough him from hell untill the 7 family . I believe hell exists and hell is Hades the house of the death and sheol , were people are tormented for their sins . I don`t believe in a separate existance of Purgatorio from Hell . God have mercy.
What happens to people who have unrepented lesser sins, such as mentioned above? Let`s not forget the most important thing , Jesus paid the price.Jesus absolve us from blame . He died for all our sins , not just one . Yes, but you do agree that there is a hell as mentioned in Matthew 25? So there is punishment for our sins. To my mind it is only reasonable that if there is eternal punishment for greater sins, as mentioned in Scripture, then this would hold for the lesser sins, but only to a lesser degree. That is what makes sense to me. I don't see a person going to hell for not returning ten cents overchange that he had received from a busy clerk in the supermarket, especially if he has to wait in a long line to return this amount. I see lesser sins as deserving of a lesser punishment than hell, and so to me the teaching on Purgatory makes sense. Yes I believe in hell , and believe me in hell(Hades) there is punishment for our sins . I believe in hell as a eternal punishment . I believe that there are two place hell and heaven , where the soul can find destination at . What is very important for the destination of our soul , is our relantionship with people , with others , that counts very much , a dollar given to a poor , trying to do good for your neighbour , what you want others to do to you , you do to them . Every pain we cause to our neighbour , every word and every cent we will have to give account for it . That is why we need to reconciliate with our accuser on the way . For what you consider small and little thing , could harm a person very hard spiritually . And you will have to give account for it . Even if it sounds silly . God put great value on relationships between people and on love . The smallest effort of us for a neighbour could mean very much for him and that effort maybe can pull us out of hell . To give is more than to receive . And to give it means to receive . By doing good , you will be repaid with good 100 times on earth and after death with eternal life . Goodness and love is something from wich if you take it doesn`t end , put it grows . As much as you make use of love and goodness they grow . Don`t despise the one who are in disadvantange in front of you , the pour , the ill , the handicap , be gratefull and happy for what you are and what you have , and show mercy with them , and God will make mercy with you . "I desire mercy and not sacrifice." The poor , the ill , the handicap are despised by some people , but God takes care of them , God knows their pain . Don`t judge and you will not be judge . Let all your judgements be made with love .If you will keep accounted sins for your neighbour so will God . If we will forgive the sins of those who mistake us , so will our Father wich is in heaven will forgive our sins. I will end with some bible verses. Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. (Matthew 22:37-40) |
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Michał
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« Reply #643 on: May 06, 2009, 06:04:24 AM » |
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Yes I believe in hell , and believe me in hell(Hades) there is punishment for our sins . Hell and Hades are not synonyms. In the Greek Scriptures you have: 1. Hades - place or state of the dead, abyss; divided into: - Bosom of Abraham - place or state of comfort (existing in the Old Testament times), - Hades proper - place or state of punishment (existing both in the Old and New Testament times), 2. Gehenna - place or state of eternal punishment (to come after the Judgement), hell. Unfortunately, many translations of the Bible and of the Liturgy and hymns confuse this terms. |
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PoorFoolNicholas
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« Reply #644 on: May 06, 2009, 09:15:13 AM » |
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Except for the fact that the official teaching of the Catholic Church is that purgatory is not for the purpose of punishment or reprimand but for purification. God's punishment is corrective. Thus punishment and purification are two different words explaining the same thing. The things of God are beyond the limits of human language, and more than one concept is often need to describe them. Look at all the different ways Catholics explain the Atonement. They are all true in different ways. So, purgatory is a place of punishment, or it isn't? Clarity please? |
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Mickey
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« Reply #645 on: May 06, 2009, 10:37:03 AM » |
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It is likewise defined, that, if those truly penitent have departed in the love of God, before they have made satisfaction by worthy fruits of penance for sins of commission and omission, the souls of these are cleansed after death by purgatorial punishments...
Laetentur Coeli, Council of Florence (1439)
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PoorFoolNicholas
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« Reply #646 on: May 06, 2009, 10:48:14 AM » |
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It is likewise defined, that, if those truly penitent have departed in the love of God, before they have made satisfaction by worthy fruits of penance for sins of commission and omission, the souls of these are cleansed after death by purgatorial punishments...
Laetentur Coeli, Council of Florence (1439) Well, does the Council of Jerusalem call Hades a place of cleansing punishment? |
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Papist
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« Reply #647 on: May 06, 2009, 10:50:18 AM » |
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Except for the fact that the official teaching of the Catholic Church is that purgatory is not for the purpose of punishment or reprimand but for purification. God's punishment is corrective. Thus punishment and purification are two different words explaining the same thing. The things of God are beyond the limits of human language, and more than one concept is often need to describe them. Look at all the different ways Catholics explain the Atonement. They are all true in different ways. So, purgatory is a place of punishment, or it isn't? Clarity please? Corrective punisment. Or "Cleansing Punishment" |
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"The only-begotten Son of God, wanting us to be partakers of his divinity, assumed our human nature so that, having become man, he might make men gods." - St. Thomas Aquinas
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PoorFoolNicholas
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« Reply #648 on: May 06, 2009, 10:52:49 AM » |
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Corrective punisment. Or "Cleansing Punishment" But Hades isn't a place of cleansing....is it? It is primarily a place of torment for those that have rejected God. |
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Papist
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« Reply #649 on: May 06, 2009, 10:55:27 AM » |
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Corrective punisment. Or "Cleansing Punishment" But Hades isn't a place of cleansing....is it? It is primarily a place of torment for those that have rejected God. Then what's the point of a "hades" that people can get out of. Sounds like corrective punishment. |
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"The only-begotten Son of God, wanting us to be partakers of his divinity, assumed our human nature so that, having become man, he might make men gods." - St. Thomas Aquinas
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Schultz
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« Reply #650 on: May 06, 2009, 10:59:04 AM » |
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Corrective punisment. Or "Cleansing Punishment" But Hades isn't a place of cleansing....is it? It is primarily a place of torment for those that have rejected God. No, Hades is the abode of the dead. Gehenna is the place of torment for those who have rejected God. |
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"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen
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PoorFoolNicholas
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« Reply #651 on: May 06, 2009, 11:00:03 AM » |
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Then what's the point of a "hades" that people can get out of. Sounds like corrective punishment. They can only "get out" through the prayers of holy people. Can one get out of purgatory without prayer? Perhaps when he is adequately purified? The only time I have heard of people getting out of purgatory through prayer was getting out early. I think what is being suggested by the Orthodox is that people would not get out of Hades, EVER, if it were not for the prayers of holy people interceding for them. Purgatory has an end in sight. Hades does not, until it is emptied into the lake of fire. |
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PoorFoolNicholas
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« Reply #652 on: May 06, 2009, 11:01:44 AM » |
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No, Hades is the abode of the dead. Gehenna is the place of torment for those who have rejected God. So the abode of the dead, which isn't heaven, is a pleasent place to go? |
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« Reply #653 on: May 06, 2009, 11:40:47 AM » |
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Then what's the point of a "hades" that people can get out of. Sounds like corrective punishment. They can only "get out" through the prayers of holy people. Can one get out of purgatory without prayer? Perhaps when he is adequately purified? The only time I have heard of people getting out of purgatory through prayer was getting out early. I think what is being suggested by the Orthodox is that people would not get out of Hades, EVER, if it were not for the prayers of holy people interceding for them. Purgatory has an end in sight. Hades does not, until it is emptied into the lake of fire. Wow. That's all I can say at this point. |
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"The only-begotten Son of God, wanting us to be partakers of his divinity, assumed our human nature so that, having become man, he might make men gods." - St. Thomas Aquinas
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Michał
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« Reply #654 on: May 06, 2009, 11:46:05 AM » |
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No, Hades is the abode of the dead. Gehenna is the place of torment for those who have rejected God. Currently, Hades is the place of a partial torment for those who rejected God ("And [the rich man] being in torments in Hades. . . .", Luke 16:23). But after the Final Judgement, Gehenna will be the place of the everlasting torment for them. So the abode of the dead, which isn't heaven, is a pleasent place to go? In the Old Testament times it was at least partially pleasent (". . .now he[, Lazarus,] is comforted. . .", Luke 16:25), obviously only for those who went to the part of this adobe which was known as the Bosom of Abraham. |
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PoorFoolNicholas
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« Reply #655 on: May 06, 2009, 11:46:44 AM » |
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Wow. That's all I can say at this point. the souls of those that have fallen asleep are either at rest or in torment, according to what each hath wrought" (an enjoyment or condemnation that will be complete only after the resurrection of the dead); but the souls of some "depart into Hades, and there endure the punishment due to the sins they have committed. But they are aware of their future release from there, and are delivered by the Supreme Goodness, through the prayers of the Priests, and the good works which the relatives of each do for their Departed; especially the unbloody Sacrifice benefiting the most; which each offers particularly for his relatives that have fallen asleep, and which the Catholic and Apostolic Church offers daily for all alike. Of course, it is understood that we do not know the time of their release. We know and believe that there is deliverance for such from their direful condition, and that before the common resurrection and judgment, but when we know not."
- Council of Jerusalem
Am I missing something? Is Hades, in this quote, being described as a third place? If it is then I can see how we are talking past each other. If it is NOT a third place, then perhaps, we can continue on in clarity. |
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PoorFoolNicholas
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« Reply #656 on: May 06, 2009, 11:48:17 AM » |
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Currently, Hades is the place of a partial torment for those who rejected God ("And [the rich man] being in torments in Hades. . . .", Luke 16:23). But after the Final Judgement, Gehenna will be the place of the everlasting torment for them. Is purgatory for those that have rejected God, or for those that love and follow Him? |
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« Reply #657 on: May 06, 2009, 11:51:35 AM » |
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Wow. That's all I can say at this point. the souls of those that have fallen asleep are either at rest or in torment, according to what each hath wrought" (an enjoyment or condemnation that will be complete only after the resurrection of the dead); but the souls of some "depart into Hades, and there endure the punishment due to the sins they have committed. But they are aware of their future release from there, and are delivered by the Supreme Goodness, through the prayers of the Priests, and the good works which the relatives of each do for their Departed; especially the unbloody Sacrifice benefiting the most; which each offers particularly for his relatives that have fallen asleep, and which the Catholic and Apostolic Church offers daily for all alike. Of course, it is understood that we do not know the time of their release. We know and believe that there is deliverance for such from their direful condition, and that before the common resurrection and judgment, but when we know not."
- Council of Jerusalem
Am I missing something? Is Hades, in this quote, being described as a third place? If it is then I can see how we are talking past each other. If it is NOT a third place, then perhaps, we can continue on in clarity. Sounds like a form of purgatory to me. We don't know if its a "third place" because that has not been defined. We just know that it is a state of painful purification. That's it. Could it be in hades like your Church teaches? Perhaps. We just don't know. All I know is that the more this conversation goes on, the more I am convinced that your Church once taught the doctrine of Purgatory and that some EOs here on this forum will go to any length to try and prove that the EO Church is not like the Catholic Church even when they have to ignore the blatant truth. But thank you all for confirming for me that the EO church is either more like the Catholic Church than some would like to admit or the EO Church used to be much more like the Catholic Church than it currently is. |
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"The only-begotten Son of God, wanting us to be partakers of his divinity, assumed our human nature so that, having become man, he might make men gods." - St. Thomas Aquinas
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Mickey
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« Reply #658 on: May 06, 2009, 11:52:15 AM » |
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In the Old Testament times it was at least partially pleasent (". . .now he[, Lazarus,] is comforted. . .", Luke 16:25), obviously only for those who went to the part of this adobe which was known as the Bosom of Abraham. The rich man, who was being condemned for the enormity of his sins, Probably thought: 'I have sinned greatly, But what is the reason for my being roasted here in the fire without any pity?' When the Lord, Who knows all, hears these words, He revealed to the sinner the cause of his punishment. For while he was in Hades he looked on high, And he saw Lazarus in the bosom of Abraham. Then he recognized the man who formerly was poor, and was amazed as he saw the one whom he scorned on earth, while he enjoyed himself and did not cry: 'Have pity, Lord.' St Romanos the Melodist |
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Papist
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« Reply #659 on: May 06, 2009, 11:52:52 AM » |
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Currently, Hades is the place of a partial torment for those who rejected God ("And [the rich man] being in torments in Hades. . . .", Luke 16:23). But after the Final Judgement, Gehenna will be the place of the everlasting torment for them. Is purgatory for those that have rejected God, or for those that love and follow Him? Well as the quote points out, those who will be released are aware of their future release. These particular souls must not have rejected God. |
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"The only-begotten Son of God, wanting us to be partakers of his divinity, assumed our human nature so that, having become man, he might make men gods." - St. Thomas Aquinas
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PoorFoolNicholas
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« Reply #660 on: May 06, 2009, 11:55:09 AM » |
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Well as the quote points out, those who will be released are aware of their future release. These particular souls must not have rejected God. That is pretty soft logic, if I do say so myself. Because they know they will be released, they must have been in a "state of Grace" previously? I would love to see how you can prove that statement. |
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Papist
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« Reply #661 on: May 06, 2009, 11:57:53 AM » |
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Well as the quote points out, those who will be released are aware of their future release. These particular souls must not have rejected God. That is pretty soft logic, if I do say so myself. Because they know they will be released, they must have been in a "state of Grace" previously? I would love to see how you can prove that statement. Because The scriptures teach that after death comes judgement. Thus our eternal destiny is determined at that point. One cannot just be prayed out of hell if they have already been condemned and judged. |
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"The only-begotten Son of God, wanting us to be partakers of his divinity, assumed our human nature so that, having become man, he might make men gods." - St. Thomas Aquinas
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Mickey
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« Reply #662 on: May 06, 2009, 11:58:02 AM » |
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the EO church is either more like the Catholic Church than some would like to admit or the EO Church used to be much more like the Catholic Church than it currently is.
Wrong on both counts. When the RC church was Orthodox, She had the correct teaching. But now that the Latin church has separated herself and declared new and innovative doctrines, She is much further from the fulness of truth. |
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Papist
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« Reply #663 on: May 06, 2009, 12:02:42 PM » |
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the EO church is either more like the Catholic Church than some would like to admit or the EO Church used to be much more like the Catholic Church than it currently is.
Wrong on both counts. When the RC church was Orthodox, She had the correct teaching. But now that the Latin church has separated herself and declared new and innovative doctrines, She is much further from the fulness of truth. I know you feel this way but I simply do not agree with your assessment. There was a time that I thought, "Maybe the EO's are right." But the past few months on this board have convinced me that that is simply not the case. The following innovations are reasons why I believe what I do: 1. The rejection of the atonement 2. The rejection of the simplicity of God 3. The rejection of original sin 4. The rejection of Papal primacy 5. The rejection of purgatory 6. The rejection of Mary as "All Holy" 7. The rejection of the Filioque etc. ad infinitum (well maybe not infinitum  ). |
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« Last Edit: May 06, 2009, 12:08:26 PM by Papist »
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"The only-begotten Son of God, wanting us to be partakers of his divinity, assumed our human nature so that, having become man, he might make men gods." - St. Thomas Aquinas
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Mickey
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« Reply #664 on: May 06, 2009, 12:06:38 PM » |
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I know you feel this way but I simply do not agree with your assessment. There was a time that I thought, "Maybe the EO's are right." But the past few months on this board have convinced me that that is simply not the case. Yawn. |
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Papist
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« Reply #665 on: May 06, 2009, 12:07:45 PM » |
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I know you feel this way but I simply do not agree with your assessment. There was a time that I thought, "Maybe the EO's are right." But the past few months on this board have convinced me that that is simply not the case. Yawn. Yawn Yawn, sneez, cough, burp. |
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"The only-begotten Son of God, wanting us to be partakers of his divinity, assumed our human nature so that, having become man, he might make men gods." - St. Thomas Aquinas
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Michał
['mi:hɑʊ]
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"Mother of God, Virgin, by God glorified Mary..."
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« Reply #666 on: May 06, 2009, 12:12:20 PM » |
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Could it be in hades like your Church teaches? Perhaps. The Bible teaches about Hades. While purgatory is never mentioned. Even if it was a difference only in nomenclature, I would still prefer the biblical name - not to confuse anyone. BTW, I heared a theory the Latin Church came up with the notion of purgatory, because of their confusing translation of Greek words "Hades" and "Gehenna" to a single Latin word "inferno". |
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« Last Edit: May 06, 2009, 12:16:12 PM by Michał »
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PoorFoolNicholas
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« Reply #667 on: May 06, 2009, 12:18:25 PM » |
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Yawn Yawn, sneez, cough, burp.
FART!!! |
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PoorFoolNicholas
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« Reply #668 on: May 06, 2009, 12:19:26 PM » |
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Because The scriptures teach that after death comes judgement. Thus our eternal destiny is determined at that point. One cannot just be prayed out of hell if they have already been condemned and judged. Then how does purgatory fit into that idea then? |
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Papist
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« Reply #669 on: May 06, 2009, 12:22:56 PM » |
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Because The scriptures teach that after death comes judgement. Thus our eternal destiny is determined at that point. One cannot just be prayed out of hell if they have already been condemned and judged. Then how does purgatory fit into that idea then? We either are sent to hell, from which there is no release. Or told that we will go to heaven for sure. For some there will be purification needed first, but they are assured of heaven just as the council of jerusalem teaches. |
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"The only-begotten Son of God, wanting us to be partakers of his divinity, assumed our human nature so that, having become man, he might make men gods." - St. Thomas Aquinas
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PoorFoolNicholas
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« Reply #670 on: May 06, 2009, 12:26:46 PM » |
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We either are sent to hell, from which there is no release. Or told that we will go to heaven for sure. For some there will be purification needed first, but they are assured of heaven just as the council of jerusalem teaches. Nowhere does it say anything about being purified Papist. You are inferring, aren't you? |
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Papist
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« Reply #671 on: May 06, 2009, 01:02:03 PM » |
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We either are sent to hell, from which there is no release. Or told that we will go to heaven for sure. For some there will be purification needed first, but they are assured of heaven just as the council of jerusalem teaches. Nowhere does it say anything about being purified Papist. You are inferring, aren't you? I didn't say that. I said the souls in purgatory know they will be released, just as the council of Jerusalem teaches. |
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"The only-begotten Son of God, wanting us to be partakers of his divinity, assumed our human nature so that, having become man, he might make men gods." - St. Thomas Aquinas
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Dan-Romania
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« Reply #672 on: May 06, 2009, 01:42:33 PM » |
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Because The scriptures teach that after death comes judgement. Thus our eternal destiny is determined at that point. One cannot just be prayed out of hell if they have already been condemned and judged. Then how does purgatory fit into that idea then? We either are sent to hell, from which there is no release. Or told that we will go to heaven for sure. For some there will be purification needed first, but they are assured of heaven just as the council of jerusalem teaches. I don`t think that is what we teach . What purification is needed ? The blood of the Lamb washes all our sins . We don`t teach and we don`t have this concept that God sends people to punishment to be purge of their sins afaik . Just so that they can become purify . That from my perspective is in contradiction with the sacriffice of Jesus . Don`t forget the vision from Apocalypse of people who no one could count , who washed their clouthes into the blood of the Lamb . Why would God punish those who believe in Him , if we people can make good gifts for our children , how much more our Father from heavens . David spoke and said : blessed be the men wich God won`t account his inquity . We teach that people go to hell , all the sinners and unbelievers , and that trough intercession and prayer , there might be a possibility for their elibaration . We don`t teach that people go into a temporarly punishment for the atonement of their sins . Our atonement of sins is in Jesus Christ . We don`t teach that Hades is a third place for those who still got some sins to pay so that they can enter in heavens. That is like saying purgatory is a second hell , like there are 2 hells . We teach that Hades or Hell is the place where all the sinners , who didn`t enter by the narrow way are . All who didn`t remain in Jesus . Hades and Hell are one , hell will be modified by being trown into the lake of fire . Is not a different place is the same place . Until the final judgement and the final punishment of hell , the lake of fire wich is eternal people can get out of there but very hard . Abraham said to the rich , there is a big pit between us that no one could pass from there to here and from here to there . Still one has passed! |
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"I believe because it is impossible"
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ialmisry
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« Reply #673 on: May 06, 2009, 01:53:55 PM » |
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We either are sent to hell, from which there is no release. Or told that we will go to heaven for sure. For some there will be purification needed first, but they are assured of heaven just as the council of jerusalem teaches. Nowhere does it say anything about being purified Papist. You are inferring, aren't you? I didn't say that. I said the souls in purgatory know they will be released, just as the council of Jerusalem teaches. Q. 64. Are there intermediate souls, between the blessed and the damned?
R. No men of this type are found; nevertheless, many sinners are freed from the prisons of hell, but not though their own penitence or confession, just as Scripture says: "Who shall confess to you in hell?"[156] And elsewhere: "The dead shall not praise you, O Lord, nor any of them that go down to hell."[157] But they are freed through the good works of the living and the Church's prayers for them, most of all through the unbloody sacrifice, which is offered on certain days for all the living and the dead, even as Christ the Lord died for the very same. That such souls are not freed by their own power, St. Theophylactus, in explaining those words of Christ, speaks thus: "'But that you may know that the Son has power on earth to forgive sin.'[158] But see," he says, "that on this earth sins are forgiven. For as long as we are on earth, we will be able to blot out our sins: after we shall have traveled from this earth, we shall no longer be able to wipe away our sins through confession, for the gate is closed."[159] And elsewhere before those words: "Our hands and feet have been tied; that is, his powers alone", he says, "are in operation. For in the present age we can function, but in the future age all the operative powers of the soul are bound, and nothing good can come about through the forgiveness of sinners."[160] And elsewhere: "After this very life there is no time for penance and works."[161] It is evident from these words that the soul after death can neither free itself, nor do penance, nor do any good, by means of which it might be delivered from the prisons of hell, but only through the unbloody sacrifice, the prayers of the Church and almsgiving, which the living are accustomed to perform for them. It is by means of these that the souls receive the greatest aid and are freed from the prisons of hell.
Q. 66. How must one consider the purgatorial fire?
R. No Scripture makes mention of the fact that after death there is a temporal punishment that cleanses souls; what is more, the opinion of Origen was condemned by the Church at the second Council of Constantinople because of this. Also, the soul can receive no sacraments after death; and if it were then to make satisfaction for its sins, it would have to perform a part of the sacrament of holy Penance, which would be contrary to the orthodox teaching. Therefore, the Church rightly performs for them the unbloody sacrifice and prayers, but they do not cleanse themselves by suffering something. But, the Church never maintained that which pertains to the fanciful stories of some concerning the souls of their dead, who have not done penance and are punished, as it were, in streams, springs and swamps. http://esoptron.umd.edu/ugc/ocf1c.htmlSt. Met. Peter Movila, "Orthodox Confession of Faith" (the catechism Pat. Dositheos refers to), corrected by the Council of Iasi. |
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« Last Edit: May 06, 2009, 02:02:44 PM by ialmisry »
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
and both come out of your mouth
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stanley123
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« Reply #674 on: May 06, 2009, 02:42:48 PM » |
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The idea of the existence of a purgatorium outside of hell , i judge it to be incorrect . There is no middle way : hell purgatorium and heaven . Althought the possibility of people being moved or transfer from Hell to heaven exist , in my perspective . But this before the Last Judgement . I believe in the power of prayers and fasting , intercessions for the death , i believe they can grant salvation , the ones that use to be in grace with God but didn`t died reconciliated with Him . Or I believe how a elder romanian said in an interview : That if a priest is born in someone family , if his family is in hell all the family can be redeem trough him from hell untill the 7 family . I believe hell exists and hell is Hades the house of the death and sheol , were people are tormented for their sins . I don`t believe in a separate existance of Purgatorio from Hell . God have mercy.
What happens to people who have unrepented lesser sins, such as mentioned above? Let`s not forget the most important thing , Jesus paid the price.Jesus absolve us from blame . He died for all our sins , not just one . Yes, but you do agree that there is a hell as mentioned in Matthew 25? So there is punishment for our sins. To my mind it is only reasonable that if there is eternal punishment for greater sins, as mentioned in Scripture, then this would hold for the lesser sins, but only to a lesser degree. That is what makes sense to me. I don't see a person going to hell for not returning ten cents overchange that he had received from a busy clerk in the supermarket, especially if he has to wait in a long line to return this amount. I see lesser sins as deserving of a lesser punishment than hell, and so to me the teaching on Purgatory makes sense. Yes I believe in hell , and believe me in hell(Hades) there is punishment for our sins . I believe in hell as a eternal punishment . I believe that there are two place hell and heaven , where the soul can find destination at . What is very important for the destination of our soul , is our relantionship with people , with others , that counts very much , a dollar given to a poor , trying to do good for your neighbour , what you want others to do to you , you do to them . Every pain we cause to our neighbour , every word and every cent we will have to give account for it . That is why we need to reconciliate with our accuser on the way . For what you consider small and little thing , could harm a person very hard spiritually . And you will have to give account for it . Even if it sounds silly . God put great value on relationships between people and on love . The smallest effort of us for a neighbour could mean very much for him and that effort maybe can pull us out of hell . To give is more than to receive . And to give it means to receive . By doing good , you will be repaid with good 100 times on earth and after death with eternal life . Goodness and love is something from wich if you take it doesn`t end , put it grows . As much as you make use of love and goodness they grow . Don`t despise the one who are in disadvantange in front of you , the pour , the ill , the handicap , be gratefull and happy for what you are and what you have , and show mercy with them , and God will make mercy with you . "I desire mercy and not sacrifice." The poor , the ill , the handicap are despised by some people , but God takes care of them , God knows their pain . Don`t judge and you will not be judge . Let all your judgements be made with love .If you will keep accounted sins for your neighbour so will God . If we will forgive the sins of those who mistake us , so will our Father wich is in heaven will forgive our sins. I will end with some bible verses. Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. (Matthew 22:37-40) Buna ziua Dan. What you have written here is very beautiful, and of course it makes a lot of sense, and I would hope that every Christian would agree with it wholeheartedly. However, I don't see where it would necessarily negate a belief in Purgatory. |
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