OrthodoxChristianity.net
August 02, 2014, 01:19:12 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 »   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Indulgences, Temporal Punishment, Purgatory, etc  (Read 175465 times) Average Rating: 5
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Mickey
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Holy Orthodoxy
Posts: 1,309



« Reply #225 on: February 17, 2009, 11:22:38 AM »

If you do not punish your children then you do not really discipline them.

Do you inflict pain on your children?

As for God being fire, the bible says that God is a consuming fire.

Can you show me where this fire is explained as pain and punishment?

Why do you keep supporting your views with unscriptural arguements?

Funny. That is what I was going to ask you.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2009, 11:23:29 AM by Mickey » Logged
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,166


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #226 on: February 17, 2009, 12:02:30 PM »

If you do not punish your children then you do not really discipline them.

Do you inflict pain on your children?

As for God being fire, the bible says that God is a consuming fire.

Can you show me where this fire is explained as pain and punishment?

Why do you keep supporting your views with unscriptural arguements?

Funny. That is what I was going to ask you.
I don't have children but when I punish my students it is not enjoyable. When my parents punished me as a child, sometimes it was painful. As the scriptures state, "Spare the rod, spoil the child". My parents loved me enough to spank me so that I would learn my lessons as a small child. As for the scriptures, when it states that God punishes us because we are his children, it sometimes translated as "chastisement" which is painful. Further, when he punishes people in the scriptures, it often states that his anger "burns" against them. Just like fire. I think your view of God is a modernist view.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
AlexanderOfBergamo
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Traditionalist Christian
Jurisdiction: The Original First Millennium Church
Posts: 706


« Reply #227 on: February 17, 2009, 01:39:18 PM »

Dear Papist,
as you maybe don't know, there's some news you should know... some millennia ago God ALREADY punished humanity in Adam expelling him from the Garden of Eden, and with him all of his descendants. And you know what? Two millennia ago (yeah, "just" 2000 years...) another Man came and delivered us from this condition. He said that the doors of heaven were now open anew for those who accepted God's love as the only instrument of salvation. Maybe you don't know of him... he was named Jesus Christ. You should maybe read some of his biographies...

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him, should not perish, but have everlasting life"  John 3:16

"But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.
But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance" Matthew 9:12-13

And also read this words of st. Isaac the Syrian:
"for five thousand years five hundred and some years God left Adam to labor on the earth" (from his 19th Homily)
and st. John Chrysostom also states that Jesus "opened for us today Paradise, which had remained closed for some 5000 years" (from On the Cross and the Thief)

God bless,
Alex



Logged

"Also in the Catholic Church itself we take great care that we hold that which has been believed everywhere, always, by all. For that is truly and properly Catholic" (St. Vincent of Lérins, "The Commonitory")
Myrrh23
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,639



« Reply #228 on: February 17, 2009, 02:13:23 PM »

If you do not punish your children then you do not really discipline them.

Do you inflict pain on your children?

As for God being fire, the bible says that God is a consuming fire.

Can you show me where this fire is explained as pain and punishment?

Why do you keep supporting your views with unscriptural arguements?

Funny. That is what I was going to ask you.
I don't have children but when I punish my students it is not enjoyable. When my parents punished me as a child, sometimes it was painful. As the scriptures state, "Spare the rod, spoil the child". My parents loved me enough to spank me so that I would learn my lessons as a small child. As for the scriptures, when it states that God punishes us because we are his children, it sometimes translated as "chastisement" which is painful. Further, when he punishes people in the scriptures, it often states that his anger "burns" against them. Just like fire. I think your view of God is a modernist view.

Maybe all the explanations people have for believing in Purgatory is really people understanding and believing in God their way instead of understanding and believing in God His way. I think there's a quote like that in either Matthew or Mark...can't remember.
Logged

*I am no longer posting on OC.net*

We all have a Black Dog and a White Dog inside of us. The One you feed the most eventually eats the Other.

All are tempted, but it is the courageous person who clings to God during the storm. For the Ego is a prison, but Christ is the Liberator
ignatius
Baptacathadox
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic > Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA - Diocese of the South
Posts: 1,690


My Son Aidan... :-)


« Reply #229 on: February 17, 2009, 03:15:41 PM »

God is love.

It is true that God is love, but it isn't simply a feminized affection...

Quote
God is not punishment.
For the Lord loveth judgment, and will not forsake his saints : they shall be preserved for ever. The unjust shall be punished, and the seed of the wicked shall perish. ~ Psalms 37:28

Quote
God is not pain.
And the Lord shall strike Egypt with a scourge, and shall heal it, and they shall return to the Lord, and he shall be pacified towards them, and heal them. ~ Isaiah 19:22

Quote
God is not fire.
For behold the Lord will come with fire, and his chariots are like a whirlwind, to render his wrath in indignation, and his rebuke with flames of fire. ~ Isaiah 66:15

Because the Lord thy God is a consuming fire, a jealous God. ~ Deuteronomy 4:24

For our God is a consuming fire. ~ Hebrews 12:29

And the light of Israel shall be as a fire, and the Holy One thereof as a flame: and his thorns and his briers shall be set on fire, and shall be devoured in one day. ~ Isaiah 10:17

Quote
God is love.
See ye that I alone am, and there is no other God besides me: I will kill and I will make to live: I will strike, and I will heal, and there is none that can deliver out of my hand. ~ Deuteronomy 32:29
Logged

St Basil the Great (330-379 A.D.): “I think then that the one goal of all who are really and truly serving the Lord ought to be to bring back to union the churches who have at different times and in diverse manners divided from one another.”
AlexanderOfBergamo
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Traditionalist Christian
Jurisdiction: The Original First Millennium Church
Posts: 706


« Reply #230 on: February 17, 2009, 03:45:19 PM »

That description of God as a punisher applies to the damnation of the wicked, not to the purgation of the faithful before being transfered to Paradise.

God bless,
Alex
Logged

"Also in the Catholic Church itself we take great care that we hold that which has been believed everywhere, always, by all. For that is truly and properly Catholic" (St. Vincent of Lérins, "The Commonitory")
Mickey
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Holy Orthodoxy
Posts: 1,309



« Reply #231 on: February 17, 2009, 03:46:50 PM »

It is true that God is love, but it isn't simply a feminized affection....

I did not say that it was--stop putting words in my mouth.

For the Lord loveth judgment, and will not forsake his saints : they shall be preserved for ever. The unjust shall be punished, and the seed of the wicked shall perish. ~ Psalms 37:28.

Yes. The unjust shall be punished in hell. God does not punish them...they have brought punishment upon themselves by their wickedness.

And the Lord shall strike Egypt with a scourge, and shall heal it, and they shall return to the Lord, and he shall be pacified towards them, and heal them. ~ Isaiah 19:22.

Is there a reason you quoted this psalm? Is it to prove that God inflicts pain? You are terribly misled.

For behold the Lord will come with fire, and his chariots are like a whirlwind, to render his wrath in indignation, and his rebuke with flames of fire. ~ Isaiah 66:15

Because the Lord thy God is a consuming fire, a jealous God. ~ Deuteronomy 4:24

For our God is a consuming fire. ~ Hebrews 12:29

And the light of Israel shall be as a fire, and the Holy One thereof as a flame: and his thorns and his briers shall be set on fire, and shall be devoured in one day. ~ Isaiah 10:17


You forgot about the burning bush and the pillar of fire and...well you get my drift. But of course none of these descriptions are referring to a painful, punishing fire. Or a fire which purges souls in purgatory.

See ye that I alone am, and there is no other God besides me: I will kill and I will make to live: I will strike, and I will heal, and there is none that can deliver out of my hand. ~ Deuteronomy 32:29

Which shows us that God is everything and controls everything. But He is merciful and loving--not vengeful and vindictive and punishing.

I am starting to feel sorry for you, Chris. Perhaps this is why you see-saw back and forth between Catholicism and Orthodoxy so often. You cannot "purge" the thought that God is some type of punishing figure that inflicts pain and suffering.

Be not afraid.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2009, 03:55:05 PM by Mickey » Logged
Mickey
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Holy Orthodoxy
Posts: 1,309



« Reply #232 on: February 17, 2009, 03:53:00 PM »

I don't have children but when I punish my students it is not enjoyable.
Do you hurt them?

My parents loved me enough to spank me so that I would learn my lessons as a small child.
Physically assaulting a small child causes emotional scars well into adutlhood.

As I think your view of God is a modernist view.
LOL! That is a good one! You are the first one ever to call me a modernist.  laugh
Logged
Mickey
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Holy Orthodoxy
Posts: 1,309



« Reply #233 on: February 17, 2009, 03:53:48 PM »

Dear Papist,
as you maybe don't know, there's some news you should know... some millennia ago God ALREADY punished humanity in Adam expelling him from the Garden of Eden, and with him all of his descendants. And you know what? Two millennia ago (yeah, "just" 2000 years...) another Man came and delivered us from this condition. He said that the doors of heaven were now open anew for those who accepted God's love as the only instrument of salvation. Maybe you don't know of him... he was named Jesus Christ. You should maybe read some of his biographies...

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him, should not perish, but have everlasting life"  John 3:16

"But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.
But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance" Matthew 9:12-13

And also read this words of st. Isaac the Syrian:
"for five thousand years five hundred and some years God left Adam to labor on the earth" (from his 19th Homily)
and st. John Chrysostom also states that Jesus "opened for us today Paradise, which had remained closed for some 5000 years" (from On the Cross and the Thief)

Thank you Alex. Good post.
Logged
Myrrh23
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,639



« Reply #234 on: February 17, 2009, 04:14:05 PM »

Papist, if your wife did something to displease you, would you hit her to teach her a lesson? If you think it works for a child, why not go about slugging your wife as well? After all, isn't that good discipline? Islam certainly thinks so. Wonder if that makes you a Muslim rather than a Christian. Roll Eyes
« Last Edit: February 17, 2009, 04:16:17 PM by Myrrh23 » Logged

*I am no longer posting on OC.net*

We all have a Black Dog and a White Dog inside of us. The One you feed the most eventually eats the Other.

All are tempted, but it is the courageous person who clings to God during the storm. For the Ego is a prison, but Christ is the Liberator
Innocent
No longer posting on this site
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 440

St. Innocent of Alaska


« Reply #235 on: February 17, 2009, 04:14:58 PM »

This is just word semantics! I don't believe in purgatory or the need for it but when my niece (Godchild) is over and she needs a timeout (no TV) it is punishment, and I do it because I love her. I want her to correct the behavior she is doing the same way God wants us to repent (now) because he loves us.
Logged
ignatius
Baptacathadox
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic > Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA - Diocese of the South
Posts: 1,690


My Son Aidan... :-)


« Reply #236 on: February 17, 2009, 04:18:54 PM »

Yes. The unjust shall be punished in hell. God does not punish them...they have brought punishment upon themselves by their wickedness.

Who do you think created all this in which our behavior will be judged? You seem to want to exempt God any responsibility....

Quote
Is there a reason you quoted this psalm? Is it to prove that God inflicts pain? You are terribly misled.

Scourging... the affliction of pain is used in order that "he shall be pacified' is mentioned. The idea of chastisement is throughout the Sacred Texts. I'm not sure how you avoid it?

Quote
You forgot about the burning bush and the pillar of fire and...well you get my drift. But of course none of these descriptions are referring to a painful, punishing fire. Or a fire which purges souls in purgatory.

You said God is not fire. He is said to be fire many times. I don't have to suggest that God is purgatory to counter your claim. I simply offer to you passages where He is clearly spoken of as fire.

Quote
Which shows us that God is everything and controls everything. But He is merciful and loving--not vengeful and vindictive and punishing.

You seem to equal the exercise of Justice as vengeful, vindictive and punishing. I think you are mistaken.

Quote
I am starting to feel sorry for you, Chris. Perhaps this is why you see-saw back in forth between Catholicism and Orthodoxy. You cannot "purge" the thought that God is some type of punishing figure that inflicts pain and suffering.

I'm not sure what pity has with regards to this conversation. Whatever Orthodoxy I hold to doesn't do injustice to the normative interpretation of the Sacred Text. I understand that many of the Greek Philosophers chafed over God as not worthy of worship. That exists in our own day which is why I think Orthodoxy is becoming popular but I'm not sure it's as Biblical as Catholicism. That is my dilemma. Coming from a Baptist background I hold that our Salvation must be done in fear and trembling. I'm not ashamed of that. I see no reason to be presumptuous of God's favor toward us nor in our own Salvation. Which is why I chafe with regards to Once Saved, Always Saved....

I don't want your pity nor your contempt. I can't agree with you in good conscience if I don't believe your arguments are valid. That might offend you and cause you to belittle me with thoughts of pity and contempt but so be it.

Knowing myself to be a sinner. Not productive with the grace God's given me I can't help be fear the judgment seat. I'm not proud of my wickedness but I acknowledge it none-the-less. I believe my sin harms those around me... my wife, my daughter, co-workers, friends and family. They clearly deserve better. God deserves better and yet I am incapable of better. I believe that God is Just and the wrongs which I have done, if not corrected, needs to have restitution. I should undo the damage done not simply be content that I am absolved for the crime or harm. If I don't see the harm healed then it is not forgotten by me. I'm not sure I can explain it any better but I'm not looking for absolution, I'm looking for the means of conquering sin. If Orthodoxy doesn't help me in this endeavor then it is useless to me.
Logged

St Basil the Great (330-379 A.D.): “I think then that the one goal of all who are really and truly serving the Lord ought to be to bring back to union the churches who have at different times and in diverse manners divided from one another.”
Mickey
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Holy Orthodoxy
Posts: 1,309



« Reply #237 on: February 17, 2009, 04:24:20 PM »

I want her to correct the behavior she is doing the same way God wants us to repent (now) because he loves us.

Yes...now.
Logged
ignatius
Baptacathadox
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic > Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA - Diocese of the South
Posts: 1,690


My Son Aidan... :-)


« Reply #238 on: February 17, 2009, 04:31:12 PM »

Papist, if your wife did something to displease you, would you hit her to teach her a lesson? If you think it works for a child, why not go about slugging your wife as well? After all, isn't that good discipline? Islam certainly thinks so. Wonder if that makes you a Muslim rather than a Christian. Roll Eyes

As a father we have the role to 'raise our children'. We don't have the same role toward our wives whom are our partners and companions. Again this is different than the role we might have as 'teachers'. This was understood in the early Church as well.
Logged

St Basil the Great (330-379 A.D.): “I think then that the one goal of all who are really and truly serving the Lord ought to be to bring back to union the churches who have at different times and in diverse manners divided from one another.”
AlexanderOfBergamo
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Traditionalist Christian
Jurisdiction: The Original First Millennium Church
Posts: 706


« Reply #239 on: February 17, 2009, 04:31:45 PM »

Quote from Mickey:
Quote
Thank you Alex. Good post.
Thx! Since is purgatory is one of the issue that get me crazy when I deal with RC's, everything I said with apparent rage... well was in truth pure wrath hehe

Quote from Myrrh23:
Quote
Papist, if your wife did something to displease you, would you hit her to teach her a lesson? If you think it works for a child, why not go about slugging your wife as well? After all, isn't that good discipline? Islam certainly thinks so. Wonder if that makes you a Muslim rather than a Christian.

I was coming to exactly the same idea... I was wondering if Papist & Co generally call God as "Father" or if they prefer "Jehovah" and "Allah" since I heard such horrible ideas on suffering only from JW's and Muslims...


In Christ,   Alex

Logged

"Also in the Catholic Church itself we take great care that we hold that which has been believed everywhere, always, by all. For that is truly and properly Catholic" (St. Vincent of Lérins, "The Commonitory")
ignatius
Baptacathadox
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic > Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA - Diocese of the South
Posts: 1,690


My Son Aidan... :-)


« Reply #240 on: February 17, 2009, 04:42:01 PM »

Quote from Mickey:
Quote
Thank you Alex. Good post.
Thx! Since is purgatory is one of the issue that get me crazy when I deal with RC's, everything I said with apparent rage... well was in truth pure wrath hehe

Quote from Myrrh23:
Quote
Papist, if your wife did something to displease you, would you hit her to teach her a lesson? If you think it works for a child, why not go about slugging your wife as well? After all, isn't that good discipline? Islam certainly thinks so. Wonder if that makes you a Muslim rather than a Christian.

I was coming to exactly the same idea... I was wondering if Papist & Co generally call God as "Father" or if they prefer "Jehovah" and "Allah" since I heard such horrible ideas on suffering only from JW's and Muslims...

I would only ask that you exercise some respect toward us and not be so quick to insult us in this manner. We are dialoguing with you all on this topic in complete sincerity. Knowing this I believe is would proper for you to be kind.

I do fear God. I'm not ashamed of that. I know who He is and who I am. I am not someone who presumes anything of the Almighty.
Logged

St Basil the Great (330-379 A.D.): “I think then that the one goal of all who are really and truly serving the Lord ought to be to bring back to union the churches who have at different times and in diverse manners divided from one another.”
lubeltri
Latin Catholic layman
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Boston
Posts: 3,795



« Reply #241 on: February 17, 2009, 04:56:52 PM »

Mickey and Alex,

Your language towards Papist and Ignatius is devoid of charity. Name-calling will not do.

I don't know why you can't just shake the dust off your feet in your departure from the Catholic Church---why the need to pick up handfuls of dirt and aim for the eye?
Logged
AlexanderOfBergamo
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Traditionalist Christian
Jurisdiction: The Original First Millennium Church
Posts: 706


« Reply #242 on: February 17, 2009, 05:01:00 PM »

Dear ignatius and lubeltri,
there was no hatred in my words, it was just a provocation. I beg your pardon.
My hatred towards RC theology is due to the fact I was imposed this RC super-legalistic view since my childhood. Lots of people I know have left the Church because they can't accept the idea of a killing or avenging or punishing God as it is shown in the OT. I don't reject the OT as a part of the Bible, but I know that Jesus gave it a greater meaning. His message was Love-is-everything. I know God will punish all sinners. I don't subscribe at all to the theory of apokatastasis. But I'm certain that God won't punish those who have already been saved and whose name is written in the Book of Life. As I already stated above, the parable of the prodigal son teaches more then adequately how God forgives one's sins when he sees a sincere repentance. That's all we should know: we must repent and pray to change our lives AT THIS TIME. Our fear shouldn't go to the punishments of purgatory but to the damnation of hell, which is an irreversible condition of true suffering.

In Christ,   Alex
Logged

"Also in the Catholic Church itself we take great care that we hold that which has been believed everywhere, always, by all. For that is truly and properly Catholic" (St. Vincent of Lérins, "The Commonitory")
Mickey
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Holy Orthodoxy
Posts: 1,309



« Reply #243 on: February 17, 2009, 05:02:33 PM »

You seem to want to exempt God any responsibility.....
 

You want to make him into a cruel punishing figure. Can you not see the problem with this?

Scourging... the affliction of pain is used in order that "he shall be pacified' is mentioned. The idea of chastisement is throughout the Sacred Texts. I'm not sure how you avoid it?.

Perhaps you should find the writings of the Holy Fathers when they interpret these verses (or maybe someone here can help you). I heard them in a Greek Orthodox Bible study. These psalms and verses you refer to are oftentimes metaphors. I can guarantee you that the Holy Fathers would not tell you that God is a punisher and that he personally inflicts pain to teach lessons.

You said God is not fire.

You know what I meant. You do not need to play this game.

God is not the king of punishment using painful fire to inflict his punishment. Is that better?

That exists in our own day which is why I think Orthodoxy is becoming popular but I'm not sure it's as Biblical as Catholicism.
I have heard that before. Next month you might say the opposite----- that Roman Catholicism is not as Biblical as Orthodoxy. That is why I have sorrow (pity was the wrong word). It must be very difficult to adopt another perspective several times per year.

Coming from a Baptist background I hold that our Salvation must be done in fear and trembling.

Most baptists I know say that they are saved by faith alone. BTW--"fear and trembling"  means "respect and awe" in this verse

Which is why I chafe with regards to Once Saved, Always Saved....

So do I. It takes away our free will.

I don't want your pity nor your contempt.

I expressed my pity because I have seen the difficult journey that you are traveling over the years. Perhaps pity was the wrong word.  Please do not add contempt--I do not express contempt. If you are going to inject the passion of anger into this, then I suggest you stop responding to me.

I can't agree with you in good conscience if I don't believe your arguments are valid.

I am not here to coax you into "believing my argument".

That might offend you and cause you to belittle me with thoughts of pity and contempt but so be it.

I am not belittling you and I expressed no contempt. I am sorry that the word pity has disturbed you so...it was a bad choice of words. Again, if your passion of anger is going to continue, perhaps you should bow out.

Knowing myself to be a sinner.

We are all wretched sinners.

I can't help be fear the judgment seat.

This fear should be understood as respect and awe.

I'm not proud of my wickedness but I acknowledge it none-the-less. I believe my sin harms those around me... my wife, my daughter, co-workers, friends and family. They clearly deserve better. God deserves better and yet I am incapable of better. I believe that God is Just and the wrongs which I have done, if not corrected, needs to have restitution. I should undo the damage done not simply be content that I am absolved for the crime or harm. If I don't see the harm healed then it is not forgotten by me.

That is a beautiful statement Chris...and it is true for most of us.  But you cannot let this turn into scrupulosity and/or despair.  That would be dangerous for the soul. Give your best and let God do the rest.  He is all merciful and loving...He is not a punisher who does not forgive.  Remember the widow who gave her last two mites? Repent, confess, do penance (if it is given to you), then go and sin no more. Then put the past behind you and leave it there because God does not keep a tally if you have confessed with a contrite heart.

I'm looking for the means of conquering sin. If Orthodoxy doesn't help me in this endeavor then it is useless to me.

After 45 years in the the Latin and Eastern Catholic Church, these last two years in the Holy Orthodox Church have offered me that means of conquering sin more than I could ever have imagined. I have made great strides. But I am still a wretched sinner and I always will be.

Peace
« Last Edit: February 17, 2009, 05:07:21 PM by Mickey » Logged
Mickey
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Holy Orthodoxy
Posts: 1,309



« Reply #244 on: February 17, 2009, 05:11:08 PM »

Dear ignatius and lubeltri,
there was no hatred in my words, it was just a provocation. I beg your pardon.
My hatred towards RC theology is due to the fact I was imposed this RC super-legalistic view since my childhood. Lots of people I know have left the Church because they can't accept the idea of a killing or avenging or punishing God as it is shown in the OT. I don't reject the OT as a part of the Bible, but I know that Jesus gave it a greater meaning. His message was Love-is-everything. I know God will punish all sinners. I don't subscribe at all to the theory of apokatastasis. But I'm certain that God won't punish those who have already been saved and whose name is written in the Book of Life. As I already stated above, the parable of the prodigal son teaches more then adequately how God forgives one's sins when he sees a sincere repentance. That's all we should know: we must repent and pray to change our lives AT THIS TIME. Our fear shouldn't go to the punishments of purgatory but to the damnation of hell, which is an irreversible condition of true suffering.

It is very frightening how much we think alike.  Grin
Logged
Mickey
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Holy Orthodoxy
Posts: 1,309



« Reply #245 on: February 17, 2009, 05:15:01 PM »

Your language towards Papist and Ignatius is devoid of charity. Name-calling will not do.

I have no idea what you are talking about?

I don't know why you can't just shake the dust off your feet in your departure from the Catholic Church---why the need to pick up handfuls of dirt and aim for the eye?

There is no mud slinging--you are mistaken.  Furthermore, this is an Orthodox forum and the Holy Orthodox Church does not accept the post schism doctrine of purgatory. If someone asks, we try to explain.  But in reality there is nothing to explain because it is not our doctrine.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2009, 05:15:37 PM by Mickey » Logged
AlexanderOfBergamo
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Traditionalist Christian
Jurisdiction: The Original First Millennium Church
Posts: 706


« Reply #246 on: February 17, 2009, 05:20:14 PM »

Yeah, that's incredible, brother.
I don't know how old you are, but I'm just 25 years old and I'm here discussing theology with RC and OC representatives who, I know and guess, must be at least 20 or 30 years older then me... And yet I found in you and many others on this forum some real borthers to discuss with.
I take the chance to repeat I'm not against none of you, Papist Ignatius and Lubeltri. I'm more a frustrated guy looking back for the purest form of religion, i.e. the most conservative in liturgy and ecumenical faith as possible. My Catholic background made me an anti-Catholic, but I guess this is due primarily to the bad influence of a super-catholic nation as Italy actually is.

In Christ,   Alex

PS: plz lubeltri or mickey or anybody else, as I'm Italian and don't understand some idiomatic sentences, can you plz explain what "pick up handfuls of dirt and aim for the eye" actually means? Thx in advance
« Last Edit: February 17, 2009, 05:20:55 PM by AlexanderOfBergamo » Logged

"Also in the Catholic Church itself we take great care that we hold that which has been believed everywhere, always, by all. For that is truly and properly Catholic" (St. Vincent of Lérins, "The Commonitory")
ignatius
Baptacathadox
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic > Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA - Diocese of the South
Posts: 1,690


My Son Aidan... :-)


« Reply #247 on: February 17, 2009, 05:22:40 PM »

Dear ignatius and lubeltri,
there was no hatred in my words, it was just a provocation. I beg your pardon.
My hatred towards RC theology is due to the fact I was imposed this RC super-legalistic view since my childhood. Lots of people I know have left the Church because they can't accept the idea of a killing or avenging or punishing God as it is shown in the OT. I don't reject the OT as a part of the Bible, but I know that Jesus gave it a greater meaning. His message was Love-is-everything. I know God will punish all sinners. I don't subscribe at all to the theory of apokatastasis. But I'm certain that God won't punish those who have already been saved and whose name is written in the Book of Life. As I already stated above, the parable of the prodigal son teaches more then adequately how God forgives one's sins when he sees a sincere repentance. That's all we should know: we must repent and pray to change our lives AT THIS TIME. Our fear shouldn't go to the punishments of purgatory but to the damnation of hell, which is an irreversible condition of true suffering.

I appreciate this. I can understand that for one who is converting these topics can be antagonizing. I'm not here to challenge you or anything. I think if you can convert you should convert.

My problem with standing behind the Prodigal Son is that it's only one of many Parables. I don't want to hang my whole salvation on one parable but on all of them. I don't believe that we can't, in good conscience, get away from the teaching of punishment. It's scriptural. It is the word of the Holy Spirit spoken through men.

If, as Mickey, suggests that God is all Merciful I will be grateful to receive it but I'm not going to presume it I will beg for it. I will not presume it.

Regardless, I appreciate your kindness.
Logged

St Basil the Great (330-379 A.D.): “I think then that the one goal of all who are really and truly serving the Lord ought to be to bring back to union the churches who have at different times and in diverse manners divided from one another.”
Mickey
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Holy Orthodoxy
Posts: 1,309



« Reply #248 on: February 17, 2009, 05:26:25 PM »

Yeah, that's incredible, brother.
I don't know how old you are, but I'm just 25 years old and I'm here discussing theology with RC and OC representatives who, I know and guess, must be at least 20 or 30 years older then me... And yet I found in you and many others on this forum some real borthers to discuss with.
I take the chance to repeat I'm not against none of you, Papist Ignatius and Lubeltri. I'm more a frustrated guy looking back for the purest form of religion, i.e. the most conservative in liturgy and ecumenical faith as possible. My Catholic background made me an anti-Catholic, but I guess this is due primarily to the bad influence of a super-catholic nation as Italy actually is.

In Christ,   Alex

PS: plz lubeltri or mickey or anybody else, as I'm Italian and don't understand some idiomatic sentences, can you plz explain what "pick up handfuls of dirt and aim for the eye" actually means? Thx in advance

Hi Alex,

I am nearly twice your age yet you have wisdom well beyond your years. It amazes me. Perhaps it is because you are Italian (I only say that because my blood line is mostly of Northern Sicilian descent).  laugh

I also do not mean anyone harm. Please forgive me.

PS--Alex, the expression means that Lubeltri thinks we are "throwing dirt", "playing unfair", "insulting others" or "being uncharitable".
« Last Edit: February 17, 2009, 05:26:52 PM by Mickey » Logged
AlexanderOfBergamo
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Traditionalist Christian
Jurisdiction: The Original First Millennium Church
Posts: 706


« Reply #249 on: February 17, 2009, 05:29:59 PM »

And I appreciate your sincerity.
I don't like to impose my own ideas, indeed; I just think exactly what's in my signature: that Catholicity means something common to all Christians at all times and places. While the idea of purification after death was well established among the Church Fathers, I don't perceive it as an ecumenical issue when it touches the aforementioned idea of punishment, satisfaction and similar things. No Ecumenical Councils, no Canons and no consent of the Fathers was ever reached (unfortunately) on the topic of life after death - which is really a shame. But after all if we're now here to confront our doctrines there must be some divine plan behind it. Maybe one day we'll understand it, with God's help.

God bless,
with brotherly love,
Alex
Logged

"Also in the Catholic Church itself we take great care that we hold that which has been believed everywhere, always, by all. For that is truly and properly Catholic" (St. Vincent of Lérins, "The Commonitory")
Mickey
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Holy Orthodoxy
Posts: 1,309



« Reply #250 on: February 17, 2009, 05:33:17 PM »

My problem with standing behind the Prodigal Son is that it's only one of many Parables. I don't want to hang my whole salvation on one parable but on all of them.

Most interpretations of Lazarus and the rich man are pointing to suffering and comfort, heaven and hell. The rich man is in hell suffering. And Lazarus is in paradise, the bosom of Abraham. Notice that Lazarus is not suffering first in purgatory.

I don't believe that we can't, in good conscience, get away from the teaching of punishment.

As Alex said, this idea of a punishing God is one of the most difficult yokes to overcome from the Latin Church. It was even more oppressive when I was Alex's age!

If, as Mickey, suggests that God is all Merciful I will be grateful to receive it but I'm not going to presume it I will beg for it. I will not presume it.

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.
Logged
AlexanderOfBergamo
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Traditionalist Christian
Jurisdiction: The Original First Millennium Church
Posts: 706


« Reply #251 on: February 17, 2009, 05:37:05 PM »

Quote
Hi Alex,

I am nearly twice your age yet you have wisdom well beyond your years. It amazes me. Perhaps it is because you are Italian (I only say that because my blood line is mostly of Northern Sicilian descent).  

I also do not mean anyone harm. Please forgive me.

PS--Alex, the expression means that Lubeltri thinks we are "throwing dirt", "playing unfair", "insulting others" or "being uncharitable".

Thx, I'm not worth such a compliment...  Cry I'm glad to know there's a piece of Italy in your veins, too...

And also thanks for your explanation. At this point, I repeat my sincere prayer: Forgive me for my irruence and uncharitable attitude and if you want pray that I might become an imitator of Christ's humility.

Now, since it's... well, 10:23 p.m. here in Italy, I'm going to go to bed. I'll join this conversation tomorrow...

In Christ,    Alex


Logged

"Also in the Catholic Church itself we take great care that we hold that which has been believed everywhere, always, by all. For that is truly and properly Catholic" (St. Vincent of Lérins, "The Commonitory")
ignatius
Baptacathadox
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic > Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA - Diocese of the South
Posts: 1,690


My Son Aidan... :-)


« Reply #252 on: February 17, 2009, 06:07:50 PM »

My problem with standing behind the Prodigal Son is that it's only one of many Parables. I don't want to hang my whole salvation on one parable but on all of them.

Most interpretations of Lazarus and the rich man are pointing to suffering and comfort, heaven and hell. The rich man is in hell suffering. And Lazarus is in paradise, the bosom of Abraham. Notice that Lazarus is not suffering first in purgatory.

I was always under the impression that this was in the present tense and thus spoke of Sheol and not heaven or hell proper?

Quote
As Alex said, this idea of a punishing God is one of the most difficult yokes to overcome from the Latin Church. It was even more oppressive when I was Alex's age!

I honestly don't see it as a yoke of the Latin Church as it has far deeper Semitic roots. I see much of it also in Oriental Theology as well. One of the early precepts of the undivided Church was the 9 ways to sin... one of those ways was presumption...

Set not thy heart upon unjust possessions, and say not: I have enough to live on: for it shall be of no service in the time of vengeance and darkness. Follow not in thy strength the desires of thy heart: 3 And say not: How mighty am I? and who shall bring me under for my deeds? for God will surely take revenge. Say not: I have sinned, and what harm hath befallen me? for the most High is a patient rewarder. Be not without fear about sin forgiven, and add not sin upon sin:

And say not: The mercy of the Lord is great, he will have mercy on the multitude of my sins. For mercy and wrath quickly come from him, and his wrath looketh upon sinners. Delay not to be converted to the Lord, and defer it not from day to day. For his wrath shall come on a sudden, and in the time of vengeance he will destroy thee.  Be not anxious for goods unjustly gotten: for they shall not profit thee in the day of calamity and revenge. Ecclesiasticus 5:1-10


I reflect on this and many other passages of the Sacred Texts soberly.

If, as Mickey, suggests that God is all Merciful I will be grateful to receive it but I'm not going to presume it I will beg for it. I will not presume it.

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.
[/quote]

Yes, every single Liturgy the Orthodox Church asks for Mercy knowing it is not a given.
Logged

St Basil the Great (330-379 A.D.): “I think then that the one goal of all who are really and truly serving the Lord ought to be to bring back to union the churches who have at different times and in diverse manners divided from one another.”
lubeltri
Latin Catholic layman
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Boston
Posts: 3,795



« Reply #253 on: February 17, 2009, 06:44:58 PM »

Hmm, my family is from Viterbo province north of Roma---does that make me wise too?  Smiley

---

On a serious note, if Alex and Mickey weren't so stuck on exaggerated caricatures of actual Catholic teaching on Purgatory, there would be no need for this debate.

This isn't the Catholic God:

This is:


I will repost this excerpt from the Catechism, since it seems that it was ignored last time:

1472 To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the "eternal punishment" of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the "temporal punishment" of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.


Logged
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,166


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #254 on: February 17, 2009, 11:08:44 PM »

Dear Papist,
as you maybe don't know, there's some news you should know... some millennia ago God ALREADY punished humanity in Adam expelling him from the Garden of Eden, and with him all of his descendants. And you know what? Two millennia ago (yeah, "just" 2000 years...) another Man came and delivered us from this condition. He said that the doors of heaven were now open anew for those who accepted God's love as the only instrument of salvation. Maybe you don't know of him... he was named Jesus Christ. You should maybe read some of his biographies...

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him, should not perish, but have everlasting life"  John 3:16

"But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.
But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance" Matthew 9:12-13

And also read this words of st. Isaac the Syrian:
"for five thousand years five hundred and some years God left Adam to labor on the earth" (from his 19th Homily)
and st. John Chrysostom also states that Jesus "opened for us today Paradise, which had remained closed for some 5000 years" (from On the Cross and the Thief)

God bless,
Alex




Then why does St. Paul in the New Testament say that God punishes his children?
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,166


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #255 on: February 17, 2009, 11:08:45 PM »

Papist, if your wife did something to displease you, would you hit her to teach her a lesson? If you think it works for a child, why not go about slugging your wife as well? After all, isn't that good discipline? Islam certainly thinks so. Wonder if that makes you a Muslim rather than a Christian. Roll Eyes
I'm not married. I don't have children. My parents punished us through spankings when we were young and looking back it was a good deterent. I'm glad my parents didn't buy into the liberal nonsense of "no spanking" that our modern society wants us all to buy into.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,166


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #256 on: February 17, 2009, 11:08:46 PM »

Quote from Mickey:
Quote
Thank you Alex. Good post.
Thx! Since is purgatory is one of the issue that get me crazy when I deal with RC's, everything I said with apparent rage... well was in truth pure wrath hehe

Quote from Myrrh23:
Quote
Papist, if your wife did something to displease you, would you hit her to teach her a lesson? If you think it works for a child, why not go about slugging your wife as well? After all, isn't that good discipline? Islam certainly thinks so. Wonder if that makes you a Muslim rather than a Christian.

I was coming to exactly the same idea... I was wondering if Papist & Co generally call God as "Father" or if they prefer "Jehovah" and "Allah" since I heard such horrible ideas on suffering only from JW's and Muslims...


In Christ,   Alex


I do call God Father and realize that a good Father punishes his children when they do wrong.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Entscheidungsproblem
Formerly Friul & Nebelpfade
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Machine God
Posts: 4,495



WWW
« Reply #257 on: February 17, 2009, 11:13:36 PM »

As long as the discussion of punishment continues to relate to temporal punishment, there will be no need for a split.  Let's just prevent any debate about parent/children discipline, pro vs. anti physical correction, etc., since it belongs in another section.

Thanks!

-- Nebelpfade
Logged

As a result of a thousand million years of evolution, the universe is becoming conscious of itself, able to understand something of its past history and its possible future.
-- Sir Julian Sorell Huxley FRS
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,166


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #258 on: February 17, 2009, 11:21:19 PM »

"For the Lord disciplines him whom he loves, and chastises every son he recieves." -Hebrews 12:6

"For they [our fathers] disciplined us for a short time at their pleasure, but he disciplines us for  our good, that we may share his holiness. For the momoent all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant; later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it." Hebrews 12:10-11

"But when we are judged by the Lord, we are chastened so that we may not be condemned along with the world."
- 1 Corinthians 11:32

Come on guys. The bible obviously teaches that God punishes us and its not fun but he does it so that we can be made holy. Let's stop arguing.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
stashko
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: ИСТОЧНИ ПРАВОСЛАВНИ СРБИН
Jurisdiction: Non Ecumenist Free Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 4,998


Wonderworking Sitka Icon


« Reply #259 on: February 17, 2009, 11:47:44 PM »

Boy!  R. Catholic are glutton's For punishment....I'm Just Beside myself....even some of your saint's tortured them self's silly, other's prayed to suffer like Christ to experience his wounds....life itself just living it ,has it's crosses to bare ,life has it's rainny and sunnyday's not to worry what tommorow bring as the lord tells us ...............
Why is it so difficult to believe Christ forgives totally upon sincere repentance...as far as the east is from the west i shall remember your sin's no more,,The slate is clean hence no purgitory..............
« Last Edit: February 17, 2009, 11:53:27 PM by stashko » Logged

ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,166


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #260 on: February 17, 2009, 11:53:33 PM »

Boy!  R. Catholic are glutton's For punishment....I'm Just Beside myself....even some of your saint's tortured them self's silly, other's prayed to suffer like Christ to experience his wounds....life itself just living it ,has it's crosses to bare ,life has it's rainny and sunnyday's not to worry what tommorow bring as the lord tells us ...............
Why is it so difficult to believe Christ forgives totally upon sincere repentance...as far as the east is from the west i shall remember your sin's no more,,The slate is clean ..............
Will the verses from scripture that I posted be ignored?
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
stanley123
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Roman Catholic
Posts: 3,809


« Reply #261 on: February 18, 2009, 01:36:01 AM »

Boy!  R. Catholic are glutton's For punishment....I'm Just Beside myself....even some of your saint's tortured them self's silly, other's prayed to suffer like Christ to experience his wounds....life itself just living it ,has it's crosses to bare ,life has it's rainny and sunnyday's not to worry what tommorow bring as the lord tells us ...............
Why is it so difficult to believe Christ forgives totally upon sincere repentance...as far as the east is from the west i shall remember your sin's no more,,The slate is clean hence no purgitory..............
I am trying to understand the Orthodox point of view on this, so please forgive my question. But, suppose a person has unrepented venial sins on his soul at the time of death. What would happen to that person after death? Would he go directly to heaven or directly to hell?
Logged
stashko
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: ИСТОЧНИ ПРАВОСЛАВНИ СРБИН
Jurisdiction: Non Ecumenist Free Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 4,998


Wonderworking Sitka Icon


« Reply #262 on: February 18, 2009, 02:17:49 AM »

I don't understand what venial sin is ...the church is there to pray for the departed..Family's have memorial services in church for the souls of there loved ones they fast give alms they donate to church maybe a chalice a censor in the departed name...the church also has prays  for the souls that were never prayed over...mentions everyone...and leaves everyone to the great mercy of God who is our hope...the faithful ones fast ,confess, receive absolution , Holy Communion,,are preparing themselves for the end of this life and the beginning of the new eternal life..
« Last Edit: February 18, 2009, 02:45:46 AM by stashko » Logged

ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
stanley123
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Roman Catholic
Posts: 3,809


« Reply #263 on: February 18, 2009, 02:28:07 AM »

I don't understand what venial sin is ...the church is there to pray for the departed..Family's have memorial services in church for the souls of there loved ones they fast give alms the donate to church maybe a chalice a censor in the departed name...the church also has prays  for the souls that were never prayed over...mentions everyone...and leaves everyone to the great mercy of God who is our hope...the faithful ones fast ,confess, receive absolution , Holy Communion,,are preparing themselves for the end of this life and the beginning of the new eternal life..
Venial sins in our tradition would be lesser sins that would not merit hell. For example, if you are driving on the freeway, and someone pulls in front of you, and you get angry and swear at that person. Or suppose you borrowed a cheap pen from someone, promising to give it back, but you never did keep your word. In our tradition, that would be a venial sin.
Please forgive me for this question, but what would happen to that person when he died? It seems reasonable to me, that there would be some sort of purification process after which he would be allowed to enter into heaven? Does that seem unreasonable?
Logged
stashko
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: ИСТОЧНИ ПРАВОСЛАВНИ СРБИН
Jurisdiction: Non Ecumenist Free Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 4,998


Wonderworking Sitka Icon


« Reply #264 on: February 18, 2009, 02:41:31 AM »

Every one will die falling short of the Glory of God..there is no man that liveth that sinneth not..Other than our lord and Saviour ...this is why Jesus came into the world he knows how it is he experienced our weakness..the Lord even said the Spirit is willing But the flesh is weak,,,He knows.. Jesus came to deliver us from  eternal death ...from Satan...Oh Death were is thy sting ,,Oh grave were is thy Victory For Christ Has Risen and set us free...
« Last Edit: February 18, 2009, 03:03:07 AM by stashko » Logged

ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
stashko
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: ИСТОЧНИ ПРАВОСЛАВНИ СРБИН
Jurisdiction: Non Ecumenist Free Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 4,998


Wonderworking Sitka Icon


« Reply #265 on: February 18, 2009, 03:31:36 AM »

I don't understand what venial sin is ...the church is there to pray for the departed..Family's have memorial services in church for the souls of there loved ones they fast give alms the donate to church maybe a chalice a censor in the departed name...the church also has prays  for the souls that were never prayed over...mentions everyone...and leaves everyone to the great mercy of God who is our hope...the faithful ones fast ,confess, receive absolution , Holy Communion,,are preparing themselves for the end of this life and the beginning of the new eternal life..
Venial sins in our tradition would be lesser sins that would not merit hell. For example, if you are driving on the freeway, and someone pulls in front of you, and you get angry and swear at that person. Or suppose you borrowed a cheap pen from someone, promising to give it back, but you never did keep your word. In our tradition, that would be a venial sin.
Please forgive me for this question, but what would happen to that person when he died? It seems reasonable to me, that there would be some sort of purification process after which he would be allowed to enter into heaven? Does that seem unreasonable?


Can't a person mentally or vocally say a prayer or repentance for these venial sins that aren't very grievous why would there still be punishment..once one repents and dies suddenly. i don't get it.......wouldn't Christ honor the act...also the victim has to forgive as well the victimizer or the victims own sins won't be forgiven everything then evens out at the end ,Then God Truly forgives both party's hence no pugitory slate wiped clean...
« Last Edit: February 18, 2009, 03:47:42 AM by stashko » Logged

ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
stanley123
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Roman Catholic
Posts: 3,809


« Reply #266 on: February 18, 2009, 04:44:57 AM »

I don't understand what venial sin is ...the church is there to pray for the departed..Family's have memorial services in church for the souls of there loved ones they fast give alms the donate to church maybe a chalice a censor in the departed name...the church also has prays  for the souls that were never prayed over...mentions everyone...and leaves everyone to the great mercy of God who is our hope...the faithful ones fast ,confess, receive absolution , Holy Communion,,are preparing themselves for the end of this life and the beginning of the new eternal life..
Venial sins in our tradition would be lesser sins that would not merit hell. For example, if you are driving on the freeway, and someone pulls in front of you, and you get angry and swear at that person. Or suppose you borrowed a cheap pen from someone, promising to give it back, but you never did keep your word. In our tradition, that would be a venial sin.
Please forgive me for this question, but what would happen to that person when he died? It seems reasonable to me, that there would be some sort of purification process after which he would be allowed to enter into heaven? Does that seem unreasonable?


Can't a person mentally or vocally say a prayer or repentance for these venial sins that aren't very grievous why would there still be punishment..once one repents and dies suddenly. i don't get it.......wouldn't Christ honor the act...also the victim has to forgive as well the victimizer or the victims own sins won't be forgiven everything then evens out at the end ,Then God Truly forgives both party's hence no pugitory slate wiped clean...
thanks. What you have said here and above makes a whole lot of sense and gives me something to reflect on as well.
Perhaps I am wrong to press this too much, but I was asking about the case where a person might not have repented of a lesser sin. In such a case, would it be unreasonable to assume that he might undergo some sort of purification before entering heaven?
Logged
Mickey
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Holy Orthodoxy
Posts: 1,309



« Reply #267 on: February 18, 2009, 09:38:43 AM »

I was always under the impression that this was in the present tense and thus spoke of Sheol and not heaven or hell proper?

It is a parable. Here is what the late Pope John Paul II says:

"Today's Gospel offers the parable of the "rich man" and poor Lazarus (cf. Lk 16: 19-31). The rich man lives in opulence and luxury oblivious of the beggar lying at his door. But after they die their fate is reversed, Lazarus is carried away to heaven, whilst the rich man falls into the netherworld of torments."
Pope John Paul II




Logged
Mickey
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Holy Orthodoxy
Posts: 1,309



« Reply #268 on: February 18, 2009, 09:42:28 AM »

I reflect on this and many other passages of the Sacred Texts soberly.

If you are going to read the Old Testament and live your life fearful of a vengeful and punishing God, then I can only pray for you.

Yes, every single Liturgy the Orthodox Church asks for Mercy knowing it is not a given.

Are you saying that God's mercy is not a given because we ask for it? Oh my.  Cry
« Last Edit: February 18, 2009, 09:42:53 AM by Mickey » Logged
Mickey
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Holy Orthodoxy
Posts: 1,309



« Reply #269 on: February 18, 2009, 09:46:15 AM »

Hmm, my family is from Viterbo province north of Roma---does that make me wise too?  Smiley

Perhaps.  Grin

On a serious note, if Alex and Mickey weren't so stuck on exaggerated caricatures of actual Catholic teaching on Purgatory, there would be no need for this debate.

Oh how often we hear this argument--it makes me chuckle. If the Roman Catholics would be able to explain this odd and varied and ever changing doctrine, perhaps we would be able to understand.  Wink

Logged
Tags: indulgences purgatory Hell forgiveness after death toll houses apokatastasis 
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 »   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.162 seconds with 73 queries.