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Author Topic: Indulgences, Temporal Punishment, Purgatory, etc  (Read 164601 times) Average Rating: 5
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Dan-Romania
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« Reply #585 on: May 05, 2009, 06:43:15 AM »

Yes there is hell , and gehenna like heaven is . This are two places . Hell is like Hades(house of the dead) in there there are many torments given to people , to sinners by devils , who hate people because they are made from God`s resemblance. Hell is a tenebrous and dark place , many see hell as the kingdom of  Satan and that the Devil as the ruler of hell.Many see hell as a power of evil , like death .What is known from oral tradition is that Satan trows people into the pit , but he is somehow outside of it . In Apocalypse says that hell will be trown into the lake of fire (eternal punishment). The last punishment and the eternal punishment of hell is the eternal fire . Hell is like the kingdom of Satan and fallen angels , like a place made of God for falling angels and sinners . I might interpret that the body of Satan is Hell , that what He became , all the sins and denaturations that were born in him , but wich are somehow uncontrolled by him , the consequence of the corruption of satan trough sins , and all the corrupted make a part of his body . This I kind of interpret it from the text : "The devil is like a roaring lion who searches for someone to swallow" . In the lammentations made in Ezekiel of Isaia(or both) , God says I will start(burn) a fire inside of you and you will not be . Never will it be mention of the nation of the evil . I see hell as a consequence of the corruption of the souls and the falling , and the corruption of the flesh , wich was good and turn into evil , into dark and lack of love and goodness . Also in the prophets says that he will be given into the hands of the uncircumcise . This is my opinion .
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« Reply #586 on: May 05, 2009, 06:52:34 AM »

Yes there is hell , and gehenna like heaven is . This are two places . Hell is like Hades(house of the dead) in there there are many torments given to people , to sinners by devils , who hate people because they are made from God`s resemblance. Hell is a tenebrous and dark place , many see hell as the kingdom of  Satan and that the Devil as the ruler of hell.Many see hell as a power of evil , like death .What is known from oral tradition is that Satan trows people into the pit , but he is somehow outside of it . In Apocalypse says that hell will be trown into the lake of fire (eternal punishment). The last punishment and the eternal punishment of hell is the eternal fire . Hell is like the kingdom of Satan and fallen angels , like a place made of God for falling angels and sinners . I might interpret that the body of Satan is Hell , that what He became , all the sins and denaturations that were born in him , but wich are somehow uncontrolled by him , the consequence of the corruption of satan trough sins , and all the corrupted make a part of his body . This I kind of interpret it from the text : "The devil is like a roaring lion who searches for someone to swallow" . In the lammentations made in Ezekiel of Isaia(or both) , God says I will start(burn) a fire inside of you and you will not be . Never will it be mention of the nation of the evil . I see hell as a consequence of the corruption of the souls and the falling , and the corruption of the flesh , wich was good and turn into evil , into dark and lack of love and goodness . Also in the prophets says that he will be given into the hands of the uncircumcise . This is my opinion .

IMHO, what you are talking about is Hades/Sheol. It is a prelude of Hell/Gehenna, while Hell/Gehenna itself is to come after the Day of Judgement.
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« Reply #587 on: May 05, 2009, 10:02:07 AM »

You don't see what is being said?   First of all I want to repeat that this statement is aimed at combatting the newly born Protestant idea that we should not pray for the dead.

Secondly it is speaking not about purifying the soul but of punishment (and many Orthodox would dispute that.)  As I understand it modern Catholicsm does not speak of punishment but only of spiritual purification and progress?  Many Catholics here and on CAF have been vociferous in denying that purgatory is for punishment.
Yeah....what he said!
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« Reply #588 on: May 05, 2009, 10:25:05 AM »

"the souls of those that have fallen asleep are either at rest or in torment, according to what each hath wrought" (an enjoyment or condemnation that will be complete only after the resurrection of the dead); but the souls of some "depart into Hades, and there endure the punishment due to the sins they have committed. But they are aware of their future release from there, and are delivered by the Supreme Goodness, through the prayers of the Priests, and the good works which the relatives of each do for their Departed; especially the unbloody Sacrifice benefiting the most; which each offers particularly for his relatives that have fallen asleep, and which the Catholic and Apostolic Church offers daily for all alike. Of course, it is understood that we do not know the time of their release. We know and believe that there is deliverance for such from their direful condition, and that before the common resurrection and judgment, but when we know not."[53]
- Council of Jerusalem

You don't see what is being said?   First of all I want to repeat that this statement is aimed at combatting the newly born Protestant idea that we should not pray for the dead.

Secondly it is speaking not about purifying the soul but of punishment (and many Orthodox would dispute that.)  As I understand it modern Catholicsm does not speak of punishment but only of spiritual purification and progress?  Many Catholics here and on CAF have been vociferous in denying that purgatory is for punishment.
Post death purification. Same basic teaching. Some of the details need to be worked out. But have you considered the fact that God's punishment in purgatory is just for our correction, or purification?
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« Reply #589 on: May 05, 2009, 10:28:10 AM »

Same basic teaching. Some of the details need to be worked out.
Worked out by who exactly? Worked into a Roman Catholic mindset to prove what you are claiming? Same basic teaching, doesn't mean: "this is a teaching on purgatory". Revisionist history? Maybe, just a little, Papist?
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« Reply #590 on: May 05, 2009, 10:30:35 AM »

Quote from: theistgal link=topic=20612.msg317200#msg317200 quotedate=1241464333
"the souls of those that have fallen asleep are either at rest or in torment, according to what each hath wrought" (an enjoyment or condemnation that will be complete only after the resurrection of the dead); but the souls of some "depart into Hades, and there endure the punishment due to the sins they have committed. But they are aware of their future release from there, and are delivered by the Supreme Goodness, through the prayers of the Priests, and the good works which the relatives of each do for their Departed; especially the unbloody Sacrifice benefiting the most; which each offers particularly for his relatives that have fallen asleep, and which the Catholic and Apostolic Church offers daily for all alike. Of course, it is understood that we do not know the time of their release. We know and believe that there is deliverance for such from their direful condition, and that before the common resurrection and judgment, but when we know not."[53]
- Council of Jerusalem
Could you please explain what the difference is?  That is basically what I have always been taught that "purgatory" is, so I'm wondering - is it just the word "purgatory" that you don't like?

The Statement from Jerusalem says that the souls are in Hades.   Not purgatory.   

It would be interesting to see the original Greek and whether it actually uses "Hades" or "Hell."


Same basic idea. I think you just hate the fact that purgatory is part of the Eastern as well as Western tradition so you try to make nonsensical distinctions. keep in mind that very little about purgatory has been clearly defined in the west. Anyway, I'll chalk this up to another area where we share a common truth.  Smiley wonderful to know.
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« Reply #591 on: May 05, 2009, 10:32:33 AM »

Same basic teaching. Some of the details need to be worked out.
Worked out by who exactly? Worked into a Roman Catholic mindset to prove what you are claiming? Same basic teaching, doesn't mean: "this is a teaching on purgatory". Revisionist history? Maybe, just a little, Papist?
Not revisionist at all. It is clear from the passage provided above that your Church, at least used to, teach the doctrine of purgatory. I am not upset about this at all. I am just glad that there is another area where we agree.
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« Reply #592 on: May 05, 2009, 10:33:31 AM »

Same basic idea. I think you just hate the fact that purgatory is part of the Eastern as well as Western tradition so you try to make nonsensical distinctions. keep in mind that very little about purgatory has been clearly defined in the west. Anyway, I'll chalk this up to another area where we share a common truth.  Smiley wonderful to know.
Does the west also call purgatory Hades? My parents live in Ohio, but I think this weekend I will go to Nevada to see them. Same basic place, right?
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« Reply #593 on: May 05, 2009, 10:37:37 AM »

Quote from: theistgal link=topic=20612.msg317200#msg317200 quotedate=1241464333
"the souls of those that have fallen asleep are either at rest or in torment, according to what each hath wrought" (an enjoyment or condemnation that will be complete only after the resurrection of the dead); but the souls of some "depart into Hades, and there endure the punishment due to the sins they have committed. But they are aware of their future release from there, and are delivered by the Supreme Goodness, through the prayers of the Priests, and the good works which the relatives of each do for their Departed; especially the unbloody Sacrifice benefiting the most; which each offers particularly for his relatives that have fallen asleep, and which the Catholic and Apostolic Church offers daily for all alike. Of course, it is understood that we do not know the time of their release. We know and believe that there is deliverance for such from their direful condition, and that before the common resurrection and judgment, but when we know not."[53]
- Council of Jerusalem
Could you please explain what the difference is?  That is basically what I have always been taught that "purgatory" is, so I'm wondering - is it just the word "purgatory" that you don't like?

The Statement from Jerusalem says that the souls are in Hades.   Not purgatory.   

It would be interesting to see the original Greek and whether it actually uses "Hades" or "Hell."



Father, I have to actually support the Catholics on your last statement. Just because the East uses "Hades" and the West uses "purgatory", does that automatically mean we're talking about 2 different things, concepts, or places? (not that it's a "place" literally, but you know what I mean)

I've read that the word purgatory comes from the Latin word meaning to "purge, purify or cleanse"....I honestly do not see how our views of the intermediate state of the dead are really so very different. Especially after reading this passage from the Council of Jerusalem. I just think we're using different words, and terms to describe the same thing. Granted, Latin Christianity is more "precise" in definitions, (some would say the West over defines doctrines, but I have no real opinion one way or the other), but if we put aside our biases I really don't see any difference between what that quote says, and what the West describes as "purgatory"....words are just words. And just because that word has come to be associated with so many negative feelings, doesn't mean using that word somehow negates a doctrine. I think the East is just more comfortable with saying "it's a Mystery" than the West is, but isn't that partly cultural and not just a matter of faith?

I'm not saying I totally agree with all of the practices that have been built up around purgatory, and I probably disagree with a few things in the West on the subject, but I don't think we're THAT far apart on this issue. Call it hades, purgatory, or the place of purification, it doesn't matter...the doctrine seems to be almost identical, albeit our understanding isn't overly defined.

Just my opinion, so I could be wrong!



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« Reply #594 on: May 05, 2009, 10:39:18 AM »

Thread to be split in 5....4....3..2..
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« Reply #595 on: May 05, 2009, 10:43:20 AM »

Actually it really does need to be split as this completely off topic now.
That being said, the idea that Eastern Orthodox believe (or believed) in a form of purgatory has now been demonstrated conclusively. I really don't know what the point of further converstation will demonstrate except the fact that those who simply don't want reality to be reality (those who are trying to deny the obvious fact that the EO church at least used to teach the doctrine of purgatory) will continue arguing and running in circles simply for the purpose of not being Catholic. Such is nonsense and not worthy of serious dicussion. If that nonsense continues then there's no point in discussing this further.
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« Reply #596 on: May 05, 2009, 10:47:10 AM »

Actually it really does need to be split as this completely off topic now.
That being said, the idea that Eastern Orthodox believe (or believed) in a form of purgatory has now been demonstrated conclusively. I really don't know what the point of further converstation will demonstrate except the fact that those who simply don't want reality to be reality (those who are trying to deny the obvious fact that the EO church at least used to teach the doctrine of purgatory) will continue arguing and running in circles simply for the purpose of not being Catholic. Such is nonsense and not worthy of serious dicussion. If that nonsense continues then there's no point in discussing this further.
So, I would be Catholic, if Purgatory were true? Hmmm...
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« Reply #597 on: May 05, 2009, 10:55:59 AM »

Actually it really does need to be split as this completely off topic now.
That being said, the idea that Eastern Orthodox believe (or believed) in a form of purgatory has now been demonstrated conclusively. I really don't know what the point of further converstation will demonstrate except the fact that those who simply don't want reality to be reality (those who are trying to deny the obvious fact that the EO church at least used to teach the doctrine of purgatory) will continue arguing and running in circles simply for the purpose of not being Catholic. Such is nonsense and not worthy of serious dicussion. If that nonsense continues then there's no point in discussing this further.
So, I would be Catholic, if Purgatory were true? Hmmm...
No, i never said that. I said that people are making silly arguements in order not to be Catholic here. However, that does not exclude the possibility that there are other reasons that people are not Catholic.
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« Reply #598 on: May 05, 2009, 10:59:34 AM »

There is a difference between Hades/Sheol(Hell) and Purgatory in teaching afaik . Of course we orthodox have prayer for the death , and i say that is justificable , and we know that prayers for the dead have so much power that absolves them their blame and can move them in heaven . I believe this can be done because the final judgement is yet to come . Still what i understood the dogma of Purgatory teaches that people are going on purgatory to get clean , so that they can be purge of their sins , everyone who wasn`t purge of their sins in this life . That refers even to believers . I believe that this are similar , but is just my understanding of things . I think taught that people who are at the edge between of being saved , I think that prayers said with zeal and mercy can earn them salvation . Also I believe that there still is a chance for people before the final judgement . Again I declare that this is Hell , the Hades , the Sheol and the Purgatory , where souls are tormented , but I believe that souls can be redeem from hell before of the Last Judgement , when hell will earn eternal punishment and Hell and Death will be send into the lake of fire as the Apocalipse says. I don`t believe that there is a way of middle : like Hades or Purgatory being different than hell . Just my opinion .
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« Reply #599 on: May 05, 2009, 11:05:46 AM »

No, i never said that. I said that people are making silly arguements in order not to be Catholic here. However, that does not exclude the possibility that there are other reasons that people are not Catholic.
Ok, when did Orthodoxy stop teaching purgatory?
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« Reply #600 on: May 05, 2009, 11:07:16 AM »

No, i never said that. I said that people are making silly arguements in order not to be Catholic here. However, that does not exclude the possibility that there are other reasons that people are not Catholic.
Ok, when did Orthodoxy stop teaching purgatory?
I also think that perhaps this shouldn't be split from this thread. Many who have been posting have accused Orthodoxy of teaching one thing and then another. Purgatory is just one of those "supposeds". Let's see the proof.
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« Reply #601 on: May 05, 2009, 11:07:30 AM »

So correct me if I'm wrong, but C.S. Lewis, in "The Great Divorce", was closer to Orthodoxy than Catholicism in his view of the afterlife - remember the "grey city" which would be purgatory to those who left and Hell to those who stayed? 
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« Reply #602 on: May 05, 2009, 11:10:15 AM »

Father, I have to actually support the Catholics on your last statement. Just because the East uses "Hades" and the West uses "purgatory", does that automatically mean we're talking about 2 different things, concepts, or places? (not that it's a "place" literally, but you know what I mean)

I am interpreting the passage differently.  I understand this to mean that there are two conditions---torment and rest---hades and paradise.  The statement does not speak of a third condition (purgatory).

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« Reply #603 on: May 05, 2009, 11:11:46 AM »

Why not continue this on the Purgatory thread ? stop the off-topic here .
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« Reply #604 on: May 05, 2009, 11:13:31 AM »

Proof? Anyone? We have been accused of not preserving the Faith, that the Catholics have, and I think the topic should stay right here in this thread.
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« Reply #605 on: May 05, 2009, 11:42:18 AM »

Secondly it is speaking not about purifying the soul but of punishment (and many Orthodox would dispute that.)  As I understand it modern Catholicsm does not speak of punishment but only of spiritual purification and progress?  Many Catholics here and on CAF have been vociferous in denying that purgatory is for punishment.
Post death purification. Same basic teaching. Some of the details need to be worked out. But have you considered the fact that God's punishment in purgatory is just for our correction, or purification?

Have switched my answer to an exisiting thread so as not to derail this thread further.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13820.msg317539/topicseen.html#msg317539
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« Reply #606 on: May 05, 2009, 11:42:19 AM »


But have you considered the fact that God's punishment in purgatory is just for our correction, or purification?

The belief that there is punishment in purgatory is an erroneous one in contemporary Catholic teaching.  It may even be heretical?   

There is no disputing that in the centuries prior to Vatican II Catholics (Popes, bishops, clergy, faithful, Saints and theologians)  did believe in the punishment and the terror and suffering inflicted on souls in purgatory.  Today that is said to have been a popular but erroneous teaching.  One is not allowed to go beyond the definition of purgatory in the Catechism iof the Catholic Church.

210. What is purgatory?

Purgatory is the state of those who die in God’s friendship, assured of their eternal salvation, but who still have need of purification to enter into the happiness of heaven.


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« Reply #607 on: May 05, 2009, 11:42:20 AM »

If we jump back to an earlier messasge in this thread, we see the very sober understanding of the Orthodox as regards the afterlife (before the Last Judgement.)  We see both Orthodoxy's refusal to elevate speculation to the realm of dogma and its consistent approach through the centuries.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13820.msg294081.html#msg294081
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« Reply #608 on: May 05, 2009, 11:57:41 AM »

Father, I have to actually support the Catholics on your last statement. Just because the East uses "Hades" and the West uses "purgatory", does that automatically mean we're talking about 2 different things, concepts, or places? (not that it's a "place" literally, but you know what I mean)

I am interpreting the passage differently.  I understand this to mean that there are two conditions---torment and rest---hades and paradise.  The statement does not speak of a third condition (purgatory).



Well you're right, in the first part it does say that:


"the souls of those that have fallen asleep are either at rest or in torment, according to what each hath wrought" (an enjoyment or condemnation that will be complete only after the resurrection of the dead);




But it doesn't end there!  Most of that passage then goes on to talk about how those in "hades" might be released from the state or condition of "torment" (as you refer to it).....it talks about how souls in hades undergo "punishment" but are AWARE of their future release from that state, by the prayers of priests, relatives, and the Cross of Christ Himself...




but the souls of some "depart into Hades, and there endure the punishment due to the sins they have committed. But they are aware of their future release from there, and are delivered by the Supreme Goodness, through the prayers of the Priests, and the good works which the relatives of each do for their Departed; especially the unbloody Sacrifice benefiting the most; which each offers particularly for his relatives that have fallen asleep, and which the Catholic and Apostolic Church offers daily for all alike. Of course, it is understood that we do not know the time of their release. We know and believe that there is deliverance for such from their direful condition, and that before the common resurrection and judgment, but when we know not."[53]
- Council of Jerusalem



The way I read it is pretty strait forward. I have no ax to grind here but I just don't see how a plain reading of this text doesn't line up with the Western doctrine of Purgatory. (again, the West's version is more defined, but the concept appear to be the same) Also remember when I say the Western doctrine, I mean what has actually been officially defined by the Catholic Church, and NOT all the "pius" traditions that have been built up around said dogma for hundreds of years. The actual defined definition is actually pretty limited in the West, even if it is more defined than our understanding of the afterlife and intermediate state.

We both say there is some foretaste of joy or suffering, we both say (according to this council) that some of those who suffer will be released from a their suffering that is due to sins committed in this life. If you strip away the Latin definition of it's latin words (like purgatory, etc) I doubt ANYONE would be able to tell the difference between the 2 concepts. But again, that's how I read it and actually have always understood Orthodox theology regarding the after life. (why else would we be praying for the dead? Just because?) I totally understand how people are uncomfortable with calling it purgatory, but again, it's just a word IMO. Yes, the West has defined it more, and kind of set up a three tier system in the afterlife, where as we just call it "the abode of the dead" or the intermediate state or whatever, but the concepts are really the same, at least IMO. But again, I could be totally wrong, and am not trying to convince anyone the Catholics are right and we're wrong, I just don't think we're all that different on THIS subject....but again, that's just me.

NP








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« Reply #609 on: May 05, 2009, 12:01:18 PM »

So correct me if I'm wrong, but C.S. Lewis, in "The Great Divorce", was closer to Orthodoxy than Catholicism in his view of the afterlife - remember the "grey city" which would be purgatory to those who left and Hell to those who stayed? 
Lewis explicitly stated that he believed in purgatory in one of his letters.
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« Reply #610 on: May 05, 2009, 12:01:56 PM »

No, i never said that. I said that people are making silly arguements in order not to be Catholic here. However, that does not exclude the possibility that there are other reasons that people are not Catholic.
Ok, when did Orthodoxy stop teaching purgatory?
Great question. I don't know. I don't know if they stopped teaching it or just stopped talking about it.
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« Reply #611 on: May 05, 2009, 12:04:46 PM »

Also remember when I say the Western doctrine, I mean what has actually been officially defined by the Catholic Church, and NOT all the "pius" traditions that have been built up around said dogma for hundreds of years. The actual defined definition is actually pretty limited in the West...
I see, food for thought...
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« Reply #612 on: May 05, 2009, 12:16:22 PM »

Yawn. I provided a quote from and Eastern Orthodox council demonstrating the same basic teaching as purgatory (as actually defined by the Catholic Church).
This means that you once taught the same thing as we do. I am not saying you don't teach it anymore. I really don't know. But what I do know is that if people keep pretending that you did not, then there is no point in having this discussion.
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« Reply #613 on: May 05, 2009, 12:40:33 PM »

But it doesn't end there!

A friend just told me that Dositheus retracted what he wrote about this supposed "purgatorial" teaching that the RC's love to cite. My friend did not give me a reference. Does anyone know if this is true?
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« Reply #614 on: May 05, 2009, 12:41:24 PM »

A friend just told me that Dositheus retracted what he wrote about this supposed "purgatorial" teaching that the RC's love to cite. My friend did not give me a reference. Does anyone know if this is true?
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« Reply #615 on: May 05, 2009, 12:46:14 PM »

Yawn. I provided a quote from and Eastern Orthodox council demonstrating the same basic teaching as purgatory (as actually defined by the Catholic Church).
This means that you once taught the same thing as we do. I am not saying you don't teach it anymore. I really don't know. But what I do know is that if people keep pretending that you did not, then there is no point in having this discussion.

I just came across the encyclical of Pat. Dositheus to the newly elevated Metropolitan of Transylvania (Pat. Dositheus was in Wallachia at the time).  He explicitely tells the Romanians to use the Orthodox Confession, the catechism of St. Peter Movila.  I don't have time to look right now, but I don't recall anything about Purgatory in it.  Btw, Dositheus confession, i.e. the decree of the Synod of Jerusalem/Bethlehem explicitely mentions the adoption of this catechism by the whole Orthodox Church at the Council of Iasi.  I don't recall anything in it about purgatory.
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« Reply #616 on: May 05, 2009, 12:46:33 PM »


But have you considered the fact that God's punishment in purgatory is just for our correction, or purification?

The belief that there is punishment in purgatory is an erroneous one in contemporary Catholic teaching.  It may even be heretical?   

There is no disputing that in the centuries prior to Vatican II Catholics (Popes, bishops, clergy, faithful, Saints and theologians)  did believe in the punishment and the terror and suffering inflicted on souls in purgatory.  Today that is said to have been a popular but erroneous teaching.  One is not allowed to go beyond the definition of purgatory in the Catechism iof the Catholic Church.

210. What is purgatory?

Purgatory is the state of those who die in God’s friendship, assured of their eternal salvation, but who still have need of purification to enter into the happiness of heaven.



Looking at this from my perspective, I don;t see how anyone would go to hell for many of the lesser sins which we commit. Still, these sins deserve some sort of reprimand and this is where Purgatory makes sense.
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« Reply #617 on: May 05, 2009, 12:51:06 PM »

Looking at this from my perspective, I don;t see how anyone would go to hell for many of the lesser sins which we commit. Still, these sins deserve some sort of reprimand and this is where Purgatory makes sense.

Reprimand?  Huh
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« Reply #618 on: May 05, 2009, 01:54:57 PM »

I think the topic should stay right here in this thread. 

It's a completely different topic, with a very tenuous and weak connection to the IC discussion (i.e. "development of Orthodox doctrine away from RC doctrine") which is disputable (and should get its own, and different, thread).  That's why we split it.
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« Reply #619 on: May 05, 2009, 02:05:44 PM »

The idea of the existence of a purgatorium outside of hell , i judge it to be incorrect . There is no middle way : hell purgatorium and heaven . Althought the possibility of people being moved or transfer from Hell to heaven exist , in my perspective . But this before the Last Judgement . I believe in the power of prayers and fasting , intercessions for the death , i believe they can grant salvation , the ones that use to be in grace with God but didn`t died reconciliated with Him . Or I believe how a elder romanian said in an interview : That if a priest is born in someone family , if his family is in hell all the family can be redeem trough him from hell untill the 7 family . I believe hell exists and hell is Hades the house of the death and sheol , were people are tormented for their sins . I don`t believe in a separate existance of Purgatorio from Hell . God have mercy.
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« Reply #620 on: May 05, 2009, 02:13:10 PM »

Looking at this from my perspective, I don;t see how anyone would go to hell for many of the lesser sins which we commit. Still, these sins deserve some sort of reprimand and this is where Purgatory makes sense.

Reprimand?  Huh
All sins are wrong and are serious in some sense since they are offense against God and His Commands. However, I just cannot get over the observation that there are some sins which are lesser than others and that do not deserve eternal damnation in hell, yet still, they do deserve some sort of cleansing. This is where Purgatory would come in. Take for example, impatience or grumbling at something that has happened at work or where someone has cut in front of you on the freeway.  Or suppose you are in a supermarket and the clerk makes a mistake and gives you ten cents more change than is indicated. Suppose then that you realise this but you do not return the change, because there is a long line and it would take a while to get the attention of the clerk. So you keep the ten cents instead of returning it. These lesser sins are wrong, but not of the same category as more serious sins. They need to be cleansed and this cleansing is done in Purgatory, where many of us will go before entering heaven.
Let me ask you this. Do you say that the person who keeps the ten cents and does not return it will go to eternal fire in hell for this?
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« Reply #621 on: May 05, 2009, 02:14:44 PM »

The idea of the existence of a purgatorium outside of hell , i judge it to be incorrect . There is no middle way : hell purgatorium and heaven . Althought the possibility of people being moved or transfer from Hell to heaven exist , in my perspective . But this before the Last Judgement . I believe in the power of prayers and fasting , intercessions for the death , i believe they can grant salvation , the ones that use to be in grace with God but didn`t died reconciliated with Him . Or I believe how a elder romanian said in an interview : That if a priest is born in someone family , if his family is in hell all the family can be redeem trough him from hell untill the 7 family . I believe hell exists and hell is Hades the house of the death and sheol , were people are tormented for their sins . I don`t believe in a separate existance of Purgatorio from Hell . God have mercy.
What happens to people who have unrepented lesser sins, such as mentioned above?
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« Reply #622 on: May 05, 2009, 02:15:59 PM »

The idea of the existence of a purgatorium outside of hell , i judge it to be incorrect . There is no middle way : hell purgatorium and heaven . Althought the possibility of people being moved or transfer from Hell to heaven exist , in my perspective . But this before the Last Judgement . I believe in the power of prayers and fasting , intercessions for the death , i believe they can grant salvation , the ones that use to be in grace with God but didn`t died reconciliated with Him . Or I believe how a elder romanian said in an interview : That if a priest is born in someone family , if his family is in hell all the family can be redeem trough him from hell untill the 7 family . I believe hell exists and hell is Hades the house of the death and sheol , were people are tormented for their sins . I don`t believe in a separate existance of Purgatorio from Hell . God have mercy.
What happens to people who have unrepented lesser sins, such as mentioned above?
They, like all of us, depend on the Mercy of God.
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« Reply #623 on: May 05, 2009, 02:20:54 PM »

When the Father Signs the Body With the Hand Cross, He pronounces Absolution Over it. I would assume That takes care of all the Sins, the body did in life..So all is Forgiven on earth and in heaven....
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« Reply #624 on: May 05, 2009, 02:22:07 PM »

They, like all of us, depend on the Mercy of God.

Yes.
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« Reply #625 on: May 05, 2009, 02:33:50 PM »

The idea of the existence of a purgatorium outside of hell , i judge it to be incorrect . There is no middle way : hell purgatorium and heaven . Althought the possibility of people being moved or transfer from Hell to heaven exist , in my perspective . But this before the Last Judgement . I believe in the power of prayers and fasting , intercessions for the death , i believe they can grant salvation , the ones that use to be in grace with God but didn`t died reconciliated with Him . Or I believe how a elder romanian said in an interview : That if a priest is born in someone family , if his family is in hell all the family can be redeem trough him from hell untill the 7 family . I believe hell exists and hell is Hades the house of the death and sheol , were people are tormented for their sins . I don`t believe in a separate existance of Purgatorio from Hell . God have mercy.
What happens to people who have unrepented lesser sins, such as mentioned above?
They, like all of us, depend on the Mercy of God.
Ok. But we have the words of Our Lord, that some will go to eternal fire in hell for their sins. For example, According to Matthew 25:
31 And when the Son of man shall come in his majesty, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit upon the seat of his majesty. 32 And all nations shall be gathered together before him, and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left. 34 Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in:

36 Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me. 37 Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee; thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and covered thee? 39 Or when did we see thee sick or in prison, and came to thee? 40 And the king answering, shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.

41 Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink. 43 I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: sick and in prison, and you did not visit me. 44 Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee? 45 Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me.

46 And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.
So it is indicated here that there will be punishment for the serious sins.
But if there are lesser sins, such as not giving back the ten cents in too much change because there is a long line of people at the register, then it seems to me to be reasonable that these sins would have to be cleansed before entering into heaven, but they are not deserving of eternal damnation in hell? Do you think that this is a heretical way of thinking?
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« Reply #626 on: May 05, 2009, 02:34:43 PM »

I kind of wonder if the main problem is not so much that the EO and the RC have taught a similar idea, i.e., there is some kind of "purgation" or "cleansing" after death - but that the RC has not just speculated about it but made it a dogma, and built all kinds of other things around it - devotions, indulgences, etc.  And you have to accept it, because if you don't, the whole house of cards surrounding it will collapse as well.

Whereas the EO just say, yeah, we know something happens after you die, we're not 100% sure what it is, so we just pray for the deceased and leave it up to God.

Same basic concept ('cleansing' after death), but wayyyy different explanations and responses.

FWIW, my personal feeling - probably not "kosher" either to the RC or the EO - is that no one really knows what exactly happens after we die.  We hope it'll be something good, but only one Person ever actually came back and told us.  And even then, He left it up to us to figger out the details.  Wink
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« Reply #627 on: May 05, 2009, 02:41:37 PM »

I kind of wonder if the main problem is not so much that the EO and the RC have taught a similar idea, i.e., there is some kind of "purgation" or "cleansing" after death - but that the RC has not just speculated about it but made it a dogma, and built all kinds of other things around it - devotions, indulgences, etc.  And you have to accept it, because if you don't, the whole house of cards surrounding it will collapse as well.

Whereas the EO just say, yeah, we know something happens after you die, we're not 100% sure what it is, so we just pray for the deceased and leave it up to God.

Bingo!
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« Reply #628 on: May 05, 2009, 02:44:12 PM »

 “At the beginning of your report you speak thus: ‘If those who truly repent have departed this life in love (towards God) before they were able to give satisfaction by means of worthy fruits for their transgressions or offences, their souls are cleansed after death by means of purgatorial sufferings; but for the easing (or ‘deliverance’) of them from these sufferings they are aided by the help which is shown them on the part of the faithful who are alive, as for example: prayers, Liturgies, almsgiving, and other works of piety.’
 
“To this we answer the following: of the fact that those reposed in faith are
without doubt helped by the Liturgies and prayers and almsgiving performed
for them, and that this custom has been in force since antiquity, there is the
testimony of many and various utterances of the Teachers, both Latin and
Greek, spoken and written at various times and in various places. But that
souls are delivered thanks to a certain purgatorial suffering and temporal fire
which possesses such (a purgatorial) power and has the character of a help –
this we do not find either in the Scriptures or in the prayers and hymns for the
dead, or in the words of the Teachers."

St Mark of Ephesus
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« Reply #629 on: May 05, 2009, 02:56:25 PM »

^ Yet we find it in the council of Jerusalem. So then, is the council of Jerusalem a heretical council from an EO perspective?
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