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Author Topic: Indulgences, Temporal Punishment, Purgatory, etc  (Read 179826 times) Average Rating: 5
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« Reply #540 on: April 05, 2009, 04:43:17 PM »

[
But that isn't the point.  You were asked to provide evidence from the body of Catholic doctrine, that which Catholics consider authoritative, that what you claim they believe is really what they believe. 

The Catechism of Pope Saint Pius X

Notice the terminology: satisfaction for sins, propitiatory sacrifice, punishment


9 Q. For what ends then is the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass offered?

A. The Sacrifice of the Mass is offered to God for four ends: (1) To honour Him properly, and hence it is called Latreutical; (2) To thank Him for His favours, and hence it is called Eucharistical; (3) To appease Him, make Him due satisfaction for our sins, and to help the souls in Purgatory, and hence it is called Propitiatory

109 Q. Why is a penance imposed in confession?

A. A penance is imposed because, after sacramental absolution which remits sin and its eternal punishment, there generally remains a temporal punishment to be undergone, either in this world or in Purgatory.

Source  ::  http://www.ewtn.com/library/CATECHSM/PIUSXCAT.htm

And I don't think anyone is objecting to this so I am not sure who you are arguing with. I am only objecting to the idea that Catholics must believe that purgatory is literal fire.

I guess he thinks we want to weasel out of the idea that God punishes/corrects sinners.

Well, Irish Hermit, you're right. Of the crime of believing that God can and does issue punishment, we are guilty as charged. But then so are the writers of Holy Scripture. 

Forgive us for being so old-fashioned, Irish Hermit.  Wink
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« Reply #541 on: April 05, 2009, 04:49:49 PM »

In one breath you try to use the scriptural passage that perfect love drives out all fear to reject the idea of the fear of purgatory. Then you state that we should fear God. You are being inconsistant. Either the scriptural passage means all fear in the literal sense and we must not fear God, or it does not mean "all" literally and thus does not support your arguement.

Fear of God is not "being afraid of Him". Fear of God is the same fear we have of offending any Loved One. If only you loved God, you would not be afraid of Him.
May you be liberated from the fear in which you live your life.

If you not have a healthy fear of God's judgement seat then you don't worship the God of the scriptures. May God you to true reverence of his justice.

Papist, I have to agree with OzGeorge.  The Greek for "fear" in "fear of God" is not the same as the Greek for being afraid of something.  A healthy fear of God is a fear of God that comes from loving someone you don't want to hurt.  I also fear the saints, my parents, my father in confession, my friends, etc.  But the highest fear of them all is to God and only to God because He is the one I respect the most.  In fact, "fear of God" is a form of respect, not a form of afraid.  I had an idea that Catholics believe the same way about fear of God as any Apostolic Christian would.

To be afraid of hell however is the most primitive form of spirituality, if one can call it spirituality.  St. John Cassian teaches us the three levels of spirituality: afraid of hell, want of heavenly prizes, and the love of God that makes hell and heaven not matter.  The fear of hell is there, but it's not the goal of a Christian.
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« Reply #542 on: April 06, 2009, 12:22:02 AM »

In one breath you try to use the scriptural passage that perfect love drives out all fear to reject the idea of the fear of purgatory. Then you state that we should fear God. You are being inconsistant. Either the scriptural passage means all fear in the literal sense and we must not fear God, or it does not mean "all" literally and thus does not support your arguement.

Fear of God is not "being afraid of Him". Fear of God is the same fear we have of offending any Loved One. If only you loved God, you would not be afraid of Him.
May you be liberated from the fear in which you live your life.

If you not have a healthy fear of God's judgement seat then you don't worship the God of the scriptures. May God you to true reverence of his justice.

Papist, I have to agree with OzGeorge.  The Greek for "fear" in "fear of God" is not the same as the Greek for being afraid of something.  A healthy fear of God is a fear of God that comes from loving someone you don't want to hurt.  I also fear the saints, my parents, my father in confession, my friends, etc.  But the highest fear of them all is to God and only to God because He is the one I respect the most.  In fact, "fear of God" is a form of respect, not a form of afraid.  I had an idea that Catholics believe the same way about fear of God as any Apostolic Christian would.

To be afraid of hell however is the most primitive form of spirituality, if one can call it spirituality.  St. John Cassian teaches us the three levels of spirituality: afraid of hell, want of heavenly prizes, and the love of God that makes hell and heaven not matter.  The fear of hell is there, but it's not the goal of a Christian.
I agree that fear is the lowest form of spirituality because it is the beginning. "Fear of the Lord is the begining of wisdom." We should build from there. But even when building from there I should keep in mind that if I turn away from the Lord and die separated from him then I will remains so for all eternity. This is the healthy fear I speak of.
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« Reply #543 on: April 06, 2009, 12:24:28 AM »

Wouldn't you agree that it is irresponsible that the Popes exercise their power of indulgences so capriciously?

They set up scenarios with a set of conditions (for example, walking backwards around St Patrick's Purgatory at Lough Derg three times)  which enable their faithful to spring Holy Souls out of purgatory in an instant.   No doubt a lot of Souls were released into heaven in this manner prior to Vatican II when people took indulgences seriously and made every effort to gain them.  Indeed on All Souls Day Catholic churches were crowded with people coming and going and coming again in order to gain indulgences to get Souls out of Purgatory.  And do you remember the great Purgatorial Archconfraternities which must have liberated hundreds of thousands of Souls from the fires and torments?

These last few decades Catholics seem to have forgotten about indulgences and some are quite embarrassed by them.  So Purgatory must be more crowded than ever since fewer people are being released and many more have to suffer there for the full term of their temporal punishment.

Now all this misery can be cured in a flash if the Popes would just release the locks on the infinite merits of Christ which are theirs to dispose of as they will.

This extremely erratic and really rather silly and uncharitable system in the afterlife is all the fault of the Popes.
No what is silly is that I allow myself to be drawn into conversations with you about purgatory because you continue to view Catholic theology in the worst possible light and refuse to believe that we believe what we say we believe.

If you had a way and you could rehabilitate all the prisoners in jail and release them into society, wouldn't you be a total misanthrope if you did not do it?   Well, the Pope has the power to release every Soul from Purgatory but what he is doing?  He is sitting on the treasury of Christ's merits and doling them out in tiny quantities when there's nothing to prevent him bestowing these merits on every Soul in Purgatory.

It's mean-spirited and the whole present system is capricious.   
Yawn. Again, a fear of purgatory as real possibility is a good thing because it reminds us that even our smallest sins are offenses against God. If you and your modernist/protestant view of God don't agree with that, then there is nothing I can do here.
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« Reply #544 on: April 06, 2009, 12:26:52 AM »

[
But that isn't the point.  You were asked to provide evidence from the body of Catholic doctrine, that which Catholics consider authoritative, that what you claim they believe is really what they believe. 

The Catechism of Pope Saint Pius X

Notice the terminology: satisfaction for sins, propitiatory sacrifice, punishment


9 Q. For what ends then is the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass offered?

A. The Sacrifice of the Mass is offered to God for four ends: (1) To honour Him properly, and hence it is called Latreutical; (2) To thank Him for His favours, and hence it is called Eucharistical; (3) To appease Him, make Him due satisfaction for our sins, and to help the souls in Purgatory, and hence it is called Propitiatory

109 Q. Why is a penance imposed in confession?

A. A penance is imposed because, after sacramental absolution which remits sin and its eternal punishment, there generally remains a temporal punishment to be undergone, either in this world or in Purgatory.

Source  ::  http://www.ewtn.com/library/CATECHSM/PIUSXCAT.htm

And I don't think anyone is objecting to this so I am not sure who you are arguing with. I am only objecting to the idea that Catholics must believe that purgatory is literal fire.

I guess he thinks we want to weasel out of the idea that God punishes/corrects sinners.

Well, Irish Hermit, you're right. Of the crime of believing that God can and does issue punishment, we are guilty as charged. But then so are the writers of Holy Scripture. 

Forgive us for being so old-fashioned, Irish Hermit.  Wink
I know. How can we Catholics dare to adhere to the teachings of scripture and tradition on God? Its just not politically corret.  Wink
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« Reply #545 on: April 06, 2009, 12:32:14 AM »

[Yawn. Again, a fear of purgatory as real possibility is a good thing because it reminds us that even our smallest sins are offenses against God. If you and your modernist/protestant view of God don't agree with that, then there is nothing I can do here.

You sidestep the point every time.

Jesus Christ came to save us from hell and He did.

The Pope has the power to save every Soul from Purgatory and he won't.


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« Reply #546 on: April 06, 2009, 12:37:08 AM »

[Yawn. Again, a fear of purgatory as real possibility is a good thing because it reminds us that even our smallest sins are offenses against God. If you and your modernist/protestant view of God don't agree with that, then there is nothing I can do here.

You sidestep the point every time.

Jesus Christ came to save us from hell and He did.

The Pope has the power to save every Soul from Purgatory and he won't.



I have not side stepped the issue. I gave you a good response and the fact that I did so is something that you did not like.
Anyway,  Purgatory and hell are essentially different in that Hell does nothing to help us and Purgatory does.
Second, by your reasoning no one would go to hell because Jesus loves us too much and wouldn't want to suffer. Yet, you do not believe in universal salvation do you? Please no sophmoric objections Father.
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« Reply #547 on: April 06, 2009, 12:42:25 AM »

I know. How can we Catholics dare to adhere to the teachings of scripture and tradition on God? Its just not politically corret.  Wink

Totally beside the point.

What I am saying is that the system of indulgences and the Pope's power to deliver from people from Purgatory is so erratic that it borders on gross injustice.

Example:

Bill Jones is a mass murderer and goes to the electric chair, and Glory to God, he repented.  His dear old mother is a wonderful and devout old soul and the day after his death she obtains a plenary indulgence for him.   He is sprung from Purgatory at once and enters Heaven.

The next day Johnny Malloy goes to the chair but he has no old devout mother and no friends interested in obtaining an indulgence and applying it to his soul.... so he has to spend two million years of torment in Purgatory.

You see what I mean, the Pope has set up an iniquitous and rather unjust system.     Worse than that - it makes God Himself appear capricious.

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« Reply #548 on: April 06, 2009, 12:47:14 AM »

I know. How can we Catholics dare to adhere to the teachings of scripture and tradition on God? Its just not politically corret.  Wink

Totally beside the point.

What I am saying is that the system of indulgences and the Pope's power to deliver from people from Purgatory is so erratic that it borders on gross injustice.

Example:

Bill Jones is a mass murderer and goes to the electric chair, and Glory to God, he repented.  His dear old mother is a wonderful and devout old soul and the day after his death she obtains a plenary indulgence for him.   He is sprung from Purgatory at once and enters Heaven.

The next day Johnny Malloy goes to the chair but he has no old devout mother and no friends interested in obtaining an indulgence and applying it to his soul.... so he has to spend two million years of torment in Purgatory.

You see what I mean, the Pope has set up an iniquitous and rather unjust system.     Worse than that - it makes God Himself appear capricious.


The first problem with this post is that you are measuring purgatory in time, when that is simply impossible. The second problem is that you think its unjust at all. The Lord did say "I will have mercy upon whom I will have mercy".
Common, come up with a good objection.
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« Reply #549 on: April 06, 2009, 12:57:21 AM »

I know. How can we Catholics dare to adhere to the teachings of scripture and tradition on God? Its just not politically corret.  Wink

Totally beside the point.

What I am saying is that the system of indulgences and the Pope's power to deliver from people from Purgatory is so erratic that it borders on gross injustice.

Example:

Bill Jones is a mass murderer and goes to the electric chair, and Glory to God, he repented.  His dear old mother is a wonderful and devout old soul and the day after his death she obtains a plenary indulgence for him.   He is sprung from Purgatory at once and enters Heaven.

The next day Johnny Malloy goes to the chair but he has no old devout mother and no friends interested in obtaining an indulgence and applying it to his soul.... so he has to spend two million years of torment in Purgatory.

You see what I mean, the Pope has set up an iniquitous and rather unjust system.     Worse than that - it makes God Himself appear capricious.


The first problem with this post is that you are measuring purgatory in time, when that is simply impossible.

I put that in to get a rise out of you.

Nevertheless I have a question.   Is the man addicted to stealing pencils given the same amount of time or intensity of torments in Purgatory as the mass murderer.  Is there really no differentiation?    Where would be the justice in that?   

Quote
The second problem is that you think its unjust at all. The Lord did say "I will have mercy upon whom I will have mercy".

Exactly what St Augustine taught with his doctrine of predestination.  In His sovereign goodness, says Augustine,  God "has mercy on those upon whom he will have mercy" and the rest of mankind, the majority,  He choses not to show mercy upon and He leaves them to damnation, even if they may have led the most devout and pure life on earth.


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« Reply #550 on: April 06, 2009, 01:52:40 AM »

I know. How can we Catholics dare to adhere to the teachings of scripture and tradition on God? Its just not politically corret.  Wink

Totally beside the point.

What I am saying is that the system of indulgences and the Pope's power to deliver from people from Purgatory is so erratic that it borders on gross injustice.

Example:

Bill Jones is a mass murderer and goes to the electric chair, and Glory to God, he repented.  His dear old mother is a wonderful and devout old soul and the day after his death she obtains a plenary indulgence for him.   He is sprung from Purgatory at once and enters Heaven.

The next day Johnny Malloy goes to the chair but he has no old devout mother and no friends interested in obtaining an indulgence and applying it to his soul.... so he has to spend two million years of torment in Purgatory.

You see what I mean, the Pope has set up an iniquitous and rather unjust system.     Worse than that - it makes God Himself appear capricious.


The first problem with this post is that you are measuring purgatory in time, when that is simply impossible.

I put that in to get a rise out of you.

Nevertheless I have a question.   Is the man addicted to stealing pencils given the same amount of time or intensity of torments in Purgatory as the mass murderer.  Is there really no differentiation?    Where would be the justice in that?   

Quote
The second problem is that you think its unjust at all. The Lord did say "I will have mercy upon whom I will have mercy".

Exactly what St Augustine taught with his doctrine of predestination.  In His sovereign goodness, says Augustine,  God "has mercy on those upon whom he will have mercy" and the rest of mankind, the majority,  He choses not to show mercy upon and He leaves them to damnation, even if they may have led the most devout and pure life on earth.



I have to agree with Papist on this. Purgatory just makes a lot of sense to me, because otherwise, you have only heaven or hell. True, hell exists as we read in Scripture, but I believe it is reserved for those who have sinned gravely and who have not repented. However, I just do not see how a person who plucks a wilted flower from among thousands blooming in a park has done something so wrong that it merits eternal damnation. The person has sinned in that he has plucked a wilted flower where the sign says do not pick the flowers, but he has sinned venially and merits a punishment, but not an eternal damnation and everlasting torment in hellfire for this lesser crime.
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« Reply #551 on: April 06, 2009, 10:29:22 AM »

I put that in to get a rise out of you.
Which is not a real debate, but rather, sophistry.
Nevertheless I have a question.   Is the man addicted to stealing pencils given the same amount of time or intensity of torments in Purgatory as the mass murderer.  Is there really no differentiation?    Where would be the justice in that?   
Although time has nothing to do with it, the severity of punishment would be different.

Exactly what St Augustine taught with his doctrine of predestination.  In His sovereign goodness, says Augustine,  God "has mercy on those upon whom he will have mercy" and the rest of mankind, the majority,  He choses not to show mercy upon and He leaves them to damnation, even if they may have led the most devout and pure life on earth.



Damnation and purgation are two different things. You are comparing apples and oranges. BTW, do you disagree with the scriptures when they state that God will have mercy upon whom he will have mercy?
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« Reply #552 on: April 06, 2009, 12:28:33 PM »

[Damnation and purgation are two different things. You are comparing apples and oranges.


If only I were that stupid as not to know the difference.    Grin

Quote
BTW, do you disagree with the scriptures when they state that God will have mercy upon whom he will have mercy?

I disagree with the people who use that to state that God acts capriciously.   I have given examples of this already.  Augustine's teaching is the most outstanding (and most dreadful) example.  Using that verse (and others) Augustine teaches that God decides to save those whom He will save and that His exercise of mercy and salvation is irrespective of whether a man is a saint or a sinner.    Those upon whom God chooses not to have mercy (and that could include such as Pope John Paul II) he leaves to damnation.  Augustine teaches that the majority of the human race is damned because of God's choice not to have mercy.  He teaches that we should be grateful that God chooses to save a few of us.   *That* is the most toxic interpretation of trhe verse.
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« Reply #553 on: April 06, 2009, 12:45:57 PM »

[Damnation and purgation are two different things. You are comparing apples and oranges.


If only I were that stupid as not to know the difference.    Grin

Quote
BTW, do you disagree with the scriptures when they state that God will have mercy upon whom he will have mercy?

I disagree with the people who use that to state that God acts capriciously.   I have given examples of this already.  Augustine's teaching is the most outstanding (and most dreadful) example.  Using that verse (and others) Augustine teaches that God decides to save those whom He will save and that His exercise of mercy and salvation is irrespective of whether a man is a saint or a sinner.    Those upon whom God chooses not to have mercy (and that could include such as Pope John Paul II) he leaves to damnation.  Augustine teaches that the majority of the human race is damned because of God's choice not to have mercy.  He teaches that we should be grateful that God chooses to save a few of us.   *That* is the most toxic interpretation of trhe verse.
So are we talking about Augustine or Purgatory Father? I am just curious.
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« Reply #554 on: April 06, 2009, 01:13:51 PM »

[Damnation and purgation are two different things. You are comparing apples and oranges.


If only I were that stupid as not to know the difference.    Grin

Quote
BTW, do you disagree with the scriptures when they state that God will have mercy upon whom he will have mercy?

I disagree with the people who use that to state that God acts capriciously.   I have given examples of this already.  Augustine's teaching is the most outstanding (and most dreadful) example.  Using that verse (and others) Augustine teaches that God decides to save those whom He will save and that His exercise of mercy and salvation is irrespective of whether a man is a saint or a sinner.    Those upon whom God chooses not to have mercy (and that could include such as Pope John Paul II) he leaves to damnation.  Augustine teaches that the majority of the human race is damned because of God's choice not to have mercy.  He teaches that we should be grateful that God chooses to save a few of us.   *That* is the most toxic interpretation of trhe verse.
So are we talking about Augustine or Purgatory Father? I am just curious.

You introduced "I will have mercy upon those upon whom I will have mercy."   It touches on Purgatory, the refusal of the Popes to use the merits of Christ (indulgences) to bring people out of Purgatory, the question of Augustine and predestination.
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« Reply #555 on: April 06, 2009, 01:16:01 PM »

[Damnation and purgation are two different things. You are comparing apples and oranges.


If only I were that stupid as not to know the difference.    Grin

Quote
BTW, do you disagree with the scriptures when they state that God will have mercy upon whom he will have mercy?

I disagree with the people who use that to state that God acts capriciously.   I have given examples of this already.  Augustine's teaching is the most outstanding (and most dreadful) example.  Using that verse (and others) Augustine teaches that God decides to save those whom He will save and that His exercise of mercy and salvation is irrespective of whether a man is a saint or a sinner.    Those upon whom God chooses not to have mercy (and that could include such as Pope John Paul II) he leaves to damnation.  Augustine teaches that the majority of the human race is damned because of God's choice not to have mercy.  He teaches that we should be grateful that God chooses to save a few of us.   *That* is the most toxic interpretation of trhe verse.
So are we talking about Augustine or Purgatory Father? I am just curious.

You introduced "I will have mercy upon those upon whom I will have mercy."   It touches on Purgatory, the refusal of the Popes to use the merits of Christ (indulgences) to bring people out of Purgatory, the question of Augustine and predestination.
But it had nothing to do with Augustine and his view hell. We are talking about the Catholic Church and her view of purgatory.
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« Reply #556 on: April 06, 2009, 11:05:25 PM »

But it had nothing to do with Augustine and his view hell. We are talking about the Catholic Church and her view of purgatory.

I have been speaking about the injustices introduced into the purgatorial system by indulgences.
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« Reply #557 on: April 07, 2009, 12:07:15 AM »

But it had nothing to do with Augustine and his view hell. We are talking about the Catholic Church and her view of purgatory.

I have been speaking about the injustices introduced into the purgatorial system by indulgences.
No you were talking about double predestination.
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« Reply #558 on: April 07, 2009, 11:21:15 AM »

I presented this thread to my spiritual father (a priest in the Greek Orthodox Arch. and a professor of theology at the university... and... a former Roman Catholic). Here is what he said:

I would hesitate to say that the Catholics have pulled away from the doctrine of Purgatory, since it is a defined dogma, and pulling away from it is really heresy for a catholic. That brings in a whole different question as to whether the present, post-Vatican II church is actually the Catholic church or if it has just become another Protestant denomination (that's my opinion!).
 
Purgatory has some fundamental problems: 1) It doesn't occur in Scripture or in the early fathers; 2) It is a logical step from the errors of medieval scholasticism; 3) It reduces the spiritual life to an exercise in legalism; 4) because of the related dogma of indulgences, it brought in a great deal of corruption and superstition into the catholic church.
 
The very name Purgatory indicates its purpose--to purge the remnants of sin from those who do not die in the state of sanctifying grace. It is considered a part of hell, but not the permanent part. The purging is done through a sort of physical fire (which was absolutely insisted on by the Catholic side at the council of Florence). It leaves little room for the mercy of God to act on its own, and it works very mechanically. On the other hand, it leads to a certain indifference: as long as you are not "too" bad, at least you will end up in Purgatory and not in Hell, and so you are almost there in heaven. So you can live without being particularly holy and still "make it under the wire".
 
For us, there can only be heaven or hell, because of our theology of the afterlife. Heaven and Hell begin in this life; either we are struggling to be living in union with God or we are not. Death does not change that situation. And so, after we die and come into the presence of God, God does not change either. God is love. So, if we have spent our life struggling and striving to live the life of the kingdom, then God will be to one degree or another, a welcoming and warming fire (like a fireplace fire). But if we spend our lives in indifference or in positive hatred of God, then God remains love, but that love seems more like a raging and consuming fire (like a house fire) to us. Hell then, is not the absence of God, but the presence of God--being eternally in the presence of the one you hate, but who loves you. Now, before the resurrection, neither of these states is absolutely permanent, especially around the transitional area, and that is why we have prayers for the dead. The dead can no longer pray for themselves, but we pray for them and ask God to have mercy on them. In other words, we throw ourselves and our loved ones totall on the mercy of God. And some who are on the "negative side" can through our prayers be moved to the "positive side". It's not a question of automatic purification (which is what Purgatory is) but totally through the mercy of God. We trust in the limitless mercy of God to bring those who may not have consciously struggled for theosis to the beginnings of that state. And since we cannot know the state of any soul, we pray for all the dead. Some saints even prayed for the devil! Although there is a superficial resemblance between the two theologies, they differ considerably in the fundamental attitude toward life and sin and salvation.
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« Reply #559 on: April 07, 2009, 12:16:44 PM »

Bill Jones is a mass murderer and goes to the electric chair, and Glory to God, he repented.  His dear old mother is a wonderful and devout old soul and the day after his death she obtains a plenary indulgence for him.   He is sprung from Purgatory at once and enters Heaven.

The next day Johnny Malloy goes to the chair but he has no old devout mother and no friends interested in obtaining an indulgence and applying it to his soul.... so he has to spend two million years of torment in Purgatory.

I bolded the words "he repented" above because I don't want to see them passed over.  Yes, Bill Jones' mother prayed for him, but Bill had to respond to God's grace or the indulgence would be worthless.

Johnny Malloy should actually have the same opportunity to respond to God's grace, because all of us Christians should be praying for him, too.  We should always pray for people who have no one else to pray for them.  If Johnny goes to Hell because no one was interested in praying for him, he shouldn't go alone.

(I had to modify this because a man has apparently jumped to his death, a few blocks from my office building, this morning.  Was anyone praying for him?  Can we pray for him now?  Cry )
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« Reply #560 on: April 07, 2009, 12:44:16 PM »


(I had to modify this because a man has apparently jumped to his death, a few blocks from my office building, this morning.  Was anyone praying for him?  Can we pray for him now?  Cry )
Lord hear our prayers.
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« Reply #561 on: April 07, 2009, 02:09:07 PM »

I know. How can we Catholics dare to adhere to the teachings of scripture and tradition on God? Its just not politically corret.  Wink

Totally beside the point.

What I am saying is that the system of indulgences and the Pope's power to deliver from people from Purgatory is so erratic that it borders on gross injustice.

Example:

Bill Jones is a mass murderer and goes to the electric chair, and Glory to God, he repented.  His dear old mother is a wonderful and devout old soul and the day after his death she obtains a plenary indulgence for him.   He is sprung from Purgatory at once and enters Heaven.

The next day Johnny Malloy goes to the chair but he has no old devout mother and no friends interested in obtaining an indulgence and applying it to his soul.... so he has to spend two million years of torment in Purgatory.

You see what I mean, the Pope has set up an iniquitous and rather unjust system.     Worse than that - it makes God Himself appear capricious.



Nuns and monks across the world routinely offer up prayers and sacrifices for those who have no one to pray for them? It is standard practice. Either way, we must trust God to work out everything through His mercy and justice.

The point of Purgatory is to make someone pure so he can enter heaven. Keep in mind that indulgences come with requirements for them to be efficacious. For plenaries, an extra requirement is for the person to be free of attachment to all sin. Ultimately only God can determine with total certainty the efficacy of an indulgence on a soul.

Why doesn't the Pope just give everybody plenaries? Well, 1) For the reason I just explained, and 2) The Pope would be abusing the Power of the Keys. Such a blanket indulgence would make a farce of the whole thing and would lead people to impiously do their prayers, alms and oblations (or quit doing them at all), making the indulgences quite ineffective...
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« Reply #562 on: April 07, 2009, 02:09:08 PM »

But it had nothing to do with Augustine and his view hell. We are talking about the Catholic Church and her view of purgatory.

I have been speaking about the injustices introduced into the purgatorial system by indulgences.

They may appear to be injustices according to your perspective, but none of us (you included) knows the whole picture. God is just, and he will deal justly with his children.
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« Reply #563 on: April 07, 2009, 02:09:08 PM »

I'm sorry for my posts appearing at odd times, but as you might know, I'm under (seemingly permanent) Moderated status. It sometimes takes a day or more for my posts to appear. Please bear with me.
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« Reply #564 on: April 07, 2009, 04:10:28 PM »

I'm sorry for my posts appearing at odd times, but as you might know, I'm under (seemingly permanent) Moderated status. It sometimes takes a day or more for my posts to appear. Please bear with me.

That thought did cross my mind many time's whenever i see your post's ,,,Hope i don't get in trouble  ....
Lord Have Mercy!............
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« Reply #565 on: April 07, 2009, 07:43:55 PM »

My understanding of indulgences is that they are for the purpose of relieving temporal punishment.  When a Catholic confesses and is prayed over by the priest he/she is forgiven of the eternal consequences, however, the earthly consequences are not forgiven, therefore earthly penance must be made.  Therefore an indulgence is granted to those who perform service to the church or for other good deed as redemption for the earthly consequences of their sins.  This is perfectly in line with Catholic theology, which is more justice and Augustinian based than Orthodox theology.  The fact that these doctrines and dogmas came later is also in line with Catholic theology that says that the Holy Spirit reveals more to us through the ages - this is contrary to Orthodox theology that places emphasis on "the faith that was given to the saints once and for all."

We cannot argue the rightness or wrongness of a theology if taken out of the theological context from which it belongs.  Augustinian theology does not align with Antiochene or Alexandrine theology so to argue such things we must really dispute their foundations.  The early fathers do not all agree.  We must decide who our measure is; for me it is Athanasius and Cyril for others it is Augustine.
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« Reply #566 on: April 07, 2009, 09:16:35 PM »

Dear brother Marc,

My understanding of indulgences is that they are for the purpose of relieving temporal punishment.  When a Catholic confesses and is prayed over by the priest he/she is forgiven of the eternal consequences, however, the earthly consequences are not forgiven, therefore earthly penance must be made.  Therefore an indulgence is granted to those who perform service to the church or for other good deed as redemption for the earthly consequences of their sins.  This is perfectly in line with Catholic theology, which is more justice and Augustinian based than Orthodox theology."
Actually, the use of indulgences - in the exact same manner used by the Catholic Church - was used in the early Church.  The indulgences were under the purview of bishops who dispensed them to the faithful who, by virtue of acts worthy of repentance, had their ecclesiastical punishment reduced or cancelled.  St. Basil writes profusely on the matter, if you want to read up on it.  The early Church was more "juridical" than modern Eastern Orthodoxy, and the Catholic Church is no less juridical than the early Church Fathers were.  The Catholic Church is simply staying faithful to the legacy of the early Church, and who can say a bad word about that?  The problem we Orientals would have about indulgences as the Latins currently practice is not the practice itself, but the rationale behind it.  Over the years, the system of indulgences in the Latin Church has become akin to a penal system of punishments meant to satisfy the Justice of God.  Now, Orientals (as distinct from the Easterns) are just as comfortable as the Latins when discussing the Justice of God.  However, for Orientals, as distinct from the Latins, the punishment or discipline we may receive is ALWAYS medicinal instead of penal (though both paradigms actually exist within Latin Catholicism).  That is the only distinction, and we as Orientals should not be so quick to say anything bad about the patristic practice of using indulgences.

Quote
We cannot argue the rightness or wrongness of a theology if taken out of the theological context from which it belongs.  Augustinian theology does not align with Antiochene or Alexandrine theology so to argue such things we must really dispute their foundations.  The early fathers do not all agree.  We must decide who our measure is; for me it is Athanasius and Cyril for others it is Augustine.
This is a great comment, but I would propose that Popes Sts. Athanasius and Cyril on the matter of the Justice of God are quite in keeping with traditional Latin theology on the matter.  Seriously, brother.  We are Orientals with a distinct theology and spirituality from our Eastern brethren.  There are many things we share in common with the Easterns, not with the Latins, but there are also many things we share in common with the Latins, and not with the Easterns.

Blessings,
Marduk
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« Reply #567 on: April 07, 2009, 09:48:11 PM »

Dear brother Marc,

My understanding of indulgences is that they are for the purpose of relieving temporal punishment.  When a Catholic confesses and is prayed over by the priest he/she is forgiven of the eternal consequences, however, the earthly consequences are not forgiven, therefore earthly penance must be made.  Therefore an indulgence is granted to those who perform service to the church or for other good deed as redemption for the earthly consequences of their sins.  This is perfectly in line with Catholic theology, which is more justice and Augustinian based than Orthodox theology."
Actually, the use of indulgences - in the exact same manner used by the Catholic Church - was used in the early Church.  The indulgences were under the purview of bishops who dispensed them to the faithful who, by virtue of acts worthy of repentance, had their ecclesiastical punishment reduced or cancelled.  St. Basil writes profusely on the matter, if you want to read up on it.  The early Church was more "juridical" than modern Eastern Orthodoxy, and the Catholic Church is no less juridical than the early Church Fathers were.  The Catholic Church is simply staying faithful to the legacy of the early Church, and who can say a bad word about that?  The problem we Orientals would have about indulgences as the Latins currently practice is not the practice itself, but the rationale behind it.  Over the years, the system of indulgences in the Latin Church has become akin to a penal system of punishments meant to satisfy the Justice of God.  Now, Orientals (as distinct from the Easterns) are just as comfortable as the Latins when discussing the Justice of God.  However, for Orientals, as distinct from the Latins, the punishment or discipline we may receive is ALWAYS medicinal instead of penal (though both paradigms actually exist within Latin Catholicism).  That is the only distinction, and we as Orientals should not be so quick to say anything bad about the patristic practice of using indulgences.

Quote
We cannot argue the rightness or wrongness of a theology if taken out of the theological context from which it belongs.  Augustinian theology does not align with Antiochene or Alexandrine theology so to argue such things we must really dispute their foundations.  The early fathers do not all agree.  We must decide who our measure is; for me it is Athanasius and Cyril for others it is Augustine.
This is a great comment, but I would propose that Popes Sts. Athanasius and Cyril on the matter of the Justice of God are quite in keeping with traditional Latin theology on the matter.  Seriously, brother.  We are Orientals with a distinct theology and spirituality from our Eastern brethren.  There are many things we share in common with the Easterns, not with the Latins, but there are also many things we share in common with the Latins, and not with the Easterns.
Blessings,
Marduk

Yes, so we often say, but I've yet to see back up (or an OO who knows what you are talking about).

Your claims, for instance, came up in this thread:
If that is the case, that the Eastern Orthodox ecclesiology is the way the Church has always operated, why is it that the ecclesiology of the Oriental Orthodox Churches, which left communion with Rome and Constantinople in the 5th century, is closer to that of the Catholic Church than the Eastern Orthodox Church.


You've been listening to Mardukhm too much.
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« Reply #568 on: April 07, 2009, 10:05:13 PM »

Your claims, for instance, came up in this thread:
If that is the case, that the Eastern Orthodox ecclesiology is the way the Church has always operated, why is it that the ecclesiology of the Oriental Orthodox Churches, which left communion with Rome and Constantinople in the 5th century, is closer to that of the Catholic Church than the Eastern Orthodox Church.


You've been listening to Mardukhm too much.
I don't think I've made any such claims in this forum, but sure, let's have at it.  However, I don't know if the forum rules would permit such a digression in this thread.  If you want to start another one, go for it.  Give me a list of my claims on distinctions between Oriental and Eastern Traditions, and I'll respond.  Do you think we should start a thread for each one?  It's up to you.

I don't plan to be back until this weekend.  Hopefully I will find time during the week for short responses.

Blessings,
Marduk
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« Reply #569 on: April 07, 2009, 11:09:28 PM »

Your claims, for instance, came up in this thread:
If that is the case, that the Eastern Orthodox ecclesiology is the way the Church has always operated, why is it that the ecclesiology of the Oriental Orthodox Churches, which left communion with Rome and Constantinople in the 5th century, is closer to that of the Catholic Church than the Eastern Orthodox Church.


You've been listening to Mardukhm too much.
I don't think I've made any such claims in this forum, but sure, let's have at it.  However, I don't know if the forum rules would permit such a digression in this thread.  If you want to start another one, go for it.  Give me a list of my claims on distinctions between Oriental and Eastern Traditions, and I'll respond.  Do you think we should start a thread for each one?  It's up to you.

We can go on the thread I linked to.  No sense reinventing the wheel.
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,18981.0.html
I can't remember who Athanasios is on CAF, but he's a member.

Quote
I don't plan to be back until this weekend.  Hopefully I will find time during the week for short responses.

Blessings,
Marduk

Is this Sunday Pascha for you?
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« Reply #570 on: April 08, 2009, 02:01:38 AM »

Dear brother Marc,

My understanding of indulgences is that they are for the purpose of relieving temporal punishment.  When a Catholic confesses and is prayed over by the priest he/she is forgiven of the eternal consequences, however, the earthly consequences are not forgiven, therefore earthly penance must be made.  Therefore an indulgence is granted to those who perform service to the church or for other good deed as redemption for the earthly consequences of their sins.  This is perfectly in line with Catholic theology, which is more justice and Augustinian based than Orthodox theology."
Actually, the use of indulgences - in the exact same manner used by the Catholic Church - was used in the early Church.  The indulgences were under the purview of bishops who dispensed them to the faithful who, by virtue of acts worthy of repentance, had their ecclesiastical punishment reduced or cancelled.  St. Basil writes profusely on the matter, if you want to read up on it.  The early Church was more "juridical" than modern Eastern Orthodoxy, and the Catholic Church is no less juridical than the early Church Fathers were.  The Catholic Church is simply staying faithful to the legacy of the early Church, and who can say a bad word about that?  The problem we Orientals would have about indulgences as the Latins currently practice is not the practice itself, but the rationale behind it.  Over the years, the system of indulgences in the Latin Church has become akin to a penal system of punishments meant to satisfy the Justice of God.  Now, Orientals (as distinct from the Easterns) are just as comfortable as the Latins when discussing the Justice of God.  However, for Orientals, as distinct from the Latins, the punishment or discipline we may receive is ALWAYS medicinal instead of penal (though both paradigms actually exist within Latin Catholicism).  That is the only distinction, and we as Orientals should not be so quick to say anything bad about the patristic practice of using indulgences.

Quote
We cannot argue the rightness or wrongness of a theology if taken out of the theological context from which it belongs.  Augustinian theology does not align with Antiochene or Alexandrine theology so to argue such things we must really dispute their foundations.  The early fathers do not all agree.  We must decide who our measure is; for me it is Athanasius and Cyril for others it is Augustine.
This is a great comment, but I would propose that Popes Sts. Athanasius and Cyril on the matter of the Justice of God are quite in keeping with traditional Latin theology on the matter.  Seriously, brother.  We are Orientals with a distinct theology and spirituality from our Eastern brethren.  There are many things we share in common with the Easterns, not with the Latins, but there are also many things we share in common with the Latins, and not with the Easterns.

Blessings,
Marduk

Medicinal as opposed to penal, I completely agree with and it is hard to speak of God without mentioning justice, for He is our perfect judge, and clearly Athanasius and Cyril do not ignore His justice.  In keeping with particular theological traditions though, I can exclude Basil's writings as a Cappadocian father as not in-line with Athanasius and Cyril being from two different theological traditions.  I respect Basil as a father, I agree with a lot of what he says but I do not agree with everything he says in very much the same way that I respect Augustine but do not agree with everything he says.  Cyril, especially took great lengths to avoid confining God within our human reason, which seems somewhat contradictory based on his extensive Christology, but he limits himself to that which is necessary to refute heretics and teaches us that the depth at which we investigate God's nature or reality can become destructive.  The Cappadocian fathers and Augustine rather ventured to seek new depths of knowledge of God and tread dangerously close to Greek philosophy.  As we know, it was Athanasius who is accredited with freeing Christianity from the shackles of Greek philosophy.

I think my point still stands, theology must be contextualized to the tradition in which it resides, and of course there is numerous overlaps, as we all have a common heritage.  Penance for temporal punishment has the least connection to the OO tradition, but to say that there is no temporal consequences to our sins can be easily disproven by observing simple cause and effect.  From a Latin theological tradition I do not see it that difficult to align indulgences and purgatory, but from an Alexandrine tradition, it just doesn't fit.
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« Reply #571 on: April 08, 2009, 04:00:44 AM »

You are right, Marduk. Indulgences can't be understood apart from the system of penances in the early Church. In fact, the "time" dimension of indulgences have to do not with "time spent" in Purgatory but with the length (in time) of the penances assigned to various sins in the early Church. Too often this has been confused (with resulting various legalisms), so Pope Paul VI wisely removed this---now, with simple "partial" indulgences, there's no way to "keep count."

You obtain indulgences to become more holy---that has always been the case ("temporal punishment" is truly about correction and greater holiness), but thanks to Paul VI, that should be even clearer.
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« Reply #572 on: May 04, 2009, 10:17:05 AM »

Split off from "Inaccurate Understanding of the Immaculate Conception"
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,20612.0.html

- Cleveland, Global Moderator


I don't think he will be back for a week.
Give him a year, as far as I am concerned, he'll never be able to prove what he is claiming.
I think he is talking about the fact that teachings in the Orthodox have changed over time. For example, we found that the Orthodox Church at the council of Jerusalem taught the idea of Purgatory. We also found that at times the EO Church taught original sin and the atonement. I don't bring these up as insults, perhaps your teachings have not changed but, rather, you theological emphasis. I don't know. I am not an expert in this area. But I have read about this online before.
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« Reply #573 on: May 04, 2009, 10:28:58 AM »

...For example, we found that the Orthodox Church at the council of Jerusalem taught the idea of Purgatory. We also found that at times the EO Church taught original sin and the atonement...
Links please? Sources, please?
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« Reply #574 on: May 04, 2009, 10:37:44 AM »

For example, we found that the Orthodox Church at the council of Jerusalem taught the idea of Purgatory.

The Council lof Jerusalem in 1672 was concerned to deal with errors from both Catholics and Protestants which were becoming known in the East.  If you examine what you are referencing you will find that the desire of the Council was to combat the false Protestant idea that prayer for the dead was without sense.   The desire was not to support the Catholic doctrine of purgatory.
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« Reply #575 on: May 04, 2009, 10:59:11 AM »

For example, we found that the Orthodox Church at the council of Jerusalem taught the idea of Purgatory.

The Council lof Jerusalem in 1672 was concerned to deal with errors from both Catholics and Protestants which were becoming known in the East.  If you examine what you are referencing you will find that the desire of the Council was to combat the false Protestant idea that prayer for the dead was without sense.   The desire was not to support the Catholic doctrine of purgatory.
Its been discussed on this forum before. At the time the EO believed in a form of purgatory. I am sorry you don't like the history of your Church but such is reality.
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« Reply #576 on: May 04, 2009, 11:00:33 AM »

I am sorry you don't like the history of your Church but such is reality.
Your version of reality, perhaps...
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« Reply #577 on: May 04, 2009, 11:27:52 AM »

I am sorry you don't like the history of your Church but such is reality.
Your version of reality, perhaps...
Or just reality. I am sorry you don't like it. I pull the quote up here in a second.
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« Reply #578 on: May 04, 2009, 11:31:35 AM »

"the souls of those that have fallen asleep are either at rest or in torment, according to what each hath wrought" (an enjoyment or condemnation that will be complete only after the resurrection of the dead); but the souls of some "depart into Hades, and there endure the punishment due to the sins they have committed. But they are aware of their future release from there, and are delivered by the Supreme Goodness, through the prayers of the Priests, and the good works which the relatives of each do for their Departed; especially the unbloody Sacrifice benefiting the most; which each offers particularly for his relatives that have fallen asleep, and which the Catholic and Apostolic Church offers daily for all alike. Of course, it is understood that we do not know the time of their release. We know and believe that there is deliverance for such from their direful condition, and that before the common resurrection and judgment, but when we know not."[53]
- Council of Jerusalem
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« Reply #579 on: May 04, 2009, 12:25:27 PM »

"the souls of those that have fallen asleep are either at rest or in torment, according to what each hath wrought" (an enjoyment or condemnation that will be complete only after the resurrection of the dead); but the souls of some "depart into Hades, and there endure the punishment due to the sins they have committed. But they are aware of their future release from there, and are delivered by the Supreme Goodness, through the prayers of the Priests, and the good works which the relatives of each do for their Departed; especially the unbloody Sacrifice benefiting the most; which each offers particularly for his relatives that have fallen asleep, and which the Catholic and Apostolic Church offers daily for all alike. Of course, it is understood that we do not know the time of their release. We know and believe that there is deliverance for such from their direful condition, and that before the common resurrection and judgment, but when we know not."[53]
- Council of Jerusalem
Yet again, I say, your version of reality. This doesn't have to mean purgatory. Sorry.
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« Reply #580 on: May 04, 2009, 01:46:10 PM »

"the souls of those that have fallen asleep are either at rest or in torment, according to what each hath wrought" (an enjoyment or condemnation that will be complete only after the resurrection of the dead); but the souls of some "depart into Hades, and there endure the punishment due to the sins they have committed. But they are aware of their future release from there, and are delivered by the Supreme Goodness, through the prayers of the Priests, and the good works which the relatives of each do for their Departed; especially the unbloody Sacrifice benefiting the most; which each offers particularly for his relatives that have fallen asleep, and which the Catholic and Apostolic Church offers daily for all alike. Of course, it is understood that we do not know the time of their release. We know and believe that there is deliverance for such from their direful condition, and that before the common resurrection and judgment, but when we know not."[53]
- Council of Jerusalem
Yet again, I say, your version of reality. This doesn't have to mean purgatory. Sorry.
Basicly the same doctrine. If you don't want to face that fact, such is life. But it is is what it is.
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« Reply #581 on: May 04, 2009, 03:12:13 PM »

"the souls of those that have fallen asleep are either at rest or in torment, according to what each hath wrought" (an enjoyment or condemnation that will be complete only after the resurrection of the dead); but the souls of some "depart into Hades, and there endure the punishment due to the sins they have committed. But they are aware of their future release from there, and are delivered by the Supreme Goodness, through the prayers of the Priests, and the good works which the relatives of each do for their Departed; especially the unbloody Sacrifice benefiting the most; which each offers particularly for his relatives that have fallen asleep, and which the Catholic and Apostolic Church offers daily for all alike. Of course, it is understood that we do not know the time of their release. We know and believe that there is deliverance for such from their direful condition, and that before the common resurrection and judgment, but when we know not."[53]
- Council of Jerusalem
Yet again, I say, your version of reality. This doesn't have to mean purgatory. Sorry.

Could you please explain what the difference is?  That is basically what I have always been taught that "purgatory" is, so I'm wondering - is it just the word "purgatory" that you don't like?

And I'm not asking to be snotty, I honestly don't know, and would like to understand.  Thanks!  Smiley
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« Reply #582 on: May 04, 2009, 05:59:03 PM »

"the souls of those that have fallen asleep are either at rest or in torment, according to what each hath wrought" (an enjoyment or condemnation that will be complete only after the resurrection of the dead); but the souls of some "depart into Hades, and there endure the punishment due to the sins they have committed. But they are aware of their future release from there, and are delivered by the Supreme Goodness, through the prayers of the Priests, and the good works which the relatives of each do for their Departed; especially the unbloody Sacrifice benefiting the most; which each offers particularly for his relatives that have fallen asleep, and which the Catholic and Apostolic Church offers daily for all alike. Of course, it is understood that we do not know the time of their release. We know and believe that there is deliverance for such from their direful condition, and that before the common resurrection and judgment, but when we know not."[53]
- Council of Jerusalem

You don't see what is being said?   First of all I want to repeat that this statement is aimed at combatting the newly born Protestant idea that we should not pray for the dead.

Secondly it is speaking not about purifying the soul but of punishment (and many Orthodox would dispute that.)  As I understand it modern Catholicsm does not speak of punishment but only of spiritual purification and progress?  Many Catholics here and on CAF have been vociferous in denying that purgatory is for punishment.
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« Reply #583 on: May 04, 2009, 06:32:20 PM »

Quote from: theistgal link=topic=20612.msg317200#msg317200 quotedate=1241464333
"the souls of those that have fallen asleep are either at rest or in torment, according to what each hath wrought" (an enjoyment or condemnation that will be complete only after the resurrection of the dead); but the souls of some "depart into Hades, and there endure the punishment due to the sins they have committed. But they are aware of their future release from there, and are delivered by the Supreme Goodness, through the prayers of the Priests, and the good works which the relatives of each do for their Departed; especially the unbloody Sacrifice benefiting the most; which each offers particularly for his relatives that have fallen asleep, and which the Catholic and Apostolic Church offers daily for all alike. Of course, it is understood that we do not know the time of their release. We know and believe that there is deliverance for such from their direful condition, and that before the common resurrection and judgment, but when we know not."[53]
- Council of Jerusalem
Could you please explain what the difference is?  That is basically what I have always been taught that "purgatory" is, so I'm wondering - is it just the word "purgatory" that you don't like?

The Statement from Jerusalem says that the souls are in Hades.   Not purgatory.   

It would be interesting to see the original Greek and whether it actually uses "Hades" or "Hell."

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« Reply #584 on: May 05, 2009, 04:52:05 AM »

Purgatory just makes a lot of sense to me, because otherwise, you have only heaven or hell.

But there is no hell (Gehenna) right now. It will come only after the Final Judgement. Current options are either Heaven or Hades.

(I've already written that in another thread - sorry for repeating  myself.)
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