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Author Topic: Indulgences, Temporal Punishment, Purgatory, etc  (Read 178932 times) Average Rating: 5
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« Reply #495 on: April 03, 2009, 11:11:27 AM »

So how is purgatory ? What happens there ? Any confessions of people about it ? Any experiences , visions ?
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« Reply #496 on: April 03, 2009, 11:31:12 AM »

Personally, I don't believe there is any purgatory... period. We can pretend to be spin-meisters and make the partial judgment into some sort of purgatory but that's quite a stretch. I've certainly never been taught any sort of purgatory in the eighteen years I've been a member of the Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #497 on: April 03, 2009, 11:31:58 AM »


If you notice, he did not bother to answer my question: Find me any ecumenical council (as defined by the Catholic Church) which states that a literal fire must be believed.

Please do not confuse me with username!.  We are not the same person.

If gloating makes you feel happy, you are free to gloat.  I have not had time to answer your question.  I am feeling sick and do not have as much time to spend on the computer as I would like.

I didn't realise that the portion of the catechism that you refer to was a quote, because the way that Deacon Lance pasted it onto the thread, it didn't look like a quote, but rather seamless text.  Even so, in the modern Catholic mind one would have to think that the pronouncements of a pope carry a lot of weight.  The implication is very heavily weighted towards Gregory saying that the faithful must believe in an actual fire, though I grant you that there is no absolute proof of this.
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« Reply #498 on: April 03, 2009, 12:43:51 PM »


If you notice, he did not bother to answer my question: Find me any ecumenical council (as defined by the Catholic Church) which states that a literal fire must be believed.

Please do not confuse me with username!.  We are not the same person.

If gloating makes you feel happy, you are free to gloat.  I have not had time to answer your question.  I am feeling sick and do not have as much time to spend on the computer as I would like.

I didn't realise that the portion of the catechism that you refer to was a quote, because the way that Deacon Lance pasted it onto the thread, it didn't look like a quote, but rather seamless text.  Even so, in the modern Catholic mind one would have to think that the pronouncements of a pope carry a lot of weight.  The implication is very heavily weighted towards Gregory saying that the faithful must believe in an actual fire, though I grant you that there is no absolute proof of this.
Does the word "actual" come before the word "fire" in the quote from St. Gregory? I don't think so.
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« Reply #499 on: April 03, 2009, 12:45:48 PM »

So how is purgatory ? What happens there ? Any confessions of people about it ? Any experiences , visions ?
We don't know much about what its like at all. All we know is that
1. Its a form of post death purification so that those who die in God's friendship but are not yet perfected can enter into heaven.
2. The purification invovles suffering, or punishment if you will.
3. The prayers of the faithful and masses offered on earth help those in purgatory through this process.
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« Reply #500 on: April 03, 2009, 01:19:37 PM »

how is there , like in prison , with bars , darkness , any beast torturing ?
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« Reply #501 on: April 03, 2009, 01:33:10 PM »

how is there , like in prison , with bars , darkness , any beast torturing ?
No, because its a spiritual reality. We really don't know what's it like.
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« Reply #502 on: April 03, 2009, 01:45:24 PM »

If you would of told me about some of them , i could of share something with you .
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« Reply #503 on: April 03, 2009, 02:37:10 PM »

If you would of told me about some of them , i could of share something with you .
I am not sure I understand what you are saying.
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« Reply #504 on: April 03, 2009, 04:06:56 PM »

First of all the temporal punishment in Purgatory, is for the sake of purification. Just as punishment here on earth, accepted in humililty, leads to holiness, so does that punishment in purgatory. Thus, there is indeed room for temporal punishment in purgatory. Indulgences simply help in that process.

You contradict your own Popes, the Vicars of Christ in earth, who speak with the authority of the Apostle Peter.

For example, Peter, through Pope Paul VI, teaches the Catholic Church:


2. It is a divinely revealed truth that sins bring punishments inflicted by God's sanctity
and justice. These must be expiated either on this earth through the sorrows,
miseries and calamities of this life and above all through death,(3) or else in the life beyond
through fire and torments or "purifying" punishments
 
That punishment or the vestiges of sin may remain to be expiated or cleansed and that they
in fact frequently do even after the remission of guilt is clearly demonstrated by the
doctrine on purgatory. In purgatory, in fact, the souls of those "who died in the charity of God
and truly repentant, but before satisfying with worthy fruits of penance for sins committed
and for omissions (9) are cleansed after death with purgatorial punishments.


http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/apost_constitutions/documents/hf_p-vi_apc_19670101_indulgentiarum-doctrina_en.htm

Now I can already hear the negative response being formulated - this is the Pope's personal eroneous teaching.  No Catholic has to believe the Pope.   This is not the truth.

Well apart from the fact that the Pope concludes by saying that what he has written must stand unchanged until the end of time, there is also the official and infallible teaching of the Vatican II Council that you must submit even to teachings of the Pope which are not framed within the narrow formula for infallibility.


"This religious submission of mind and will must be shown in a special way to the
authentic magisterium of the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking ex cathedra;
that is, it must be shown in such a way that his supreme magisterium is acknowledged
with reverence, the judgments made by him are sincerely adhered to, according to his
manifest mind and will.”   
~Dogmatic Constitution on the Church #25

Now Lumen Gentium, the Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, is one of the principal documents of the Second Vatican Council. The Constitution was promulgated by Pope Paul VI on November 21, 1964, following approval by the assembled bishops by a vote of 2,151 to 5.  Whether one posits infallibility in Ecumenical Councils or Popes or both, this document is ungainsayable on all counts, and the Pope was most certainly exercising his magisterial authority.  In other words, Catholic must give assent of mind and will to the papal teaching on purgatory and temporal punishment.

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« Reply #505 on: April 03, 2009, 04:17:55 PM »

Fr. Ambrose, It appears, based on the quote below, that the fire used in a symbolic way.
2. It is a divinely revealed truth that sins bring punishments inflicted by God's sanctity
and justice. These must be expiated either on this earth through the sorrows,
miseries and calamities of this life and above all through death,(3) or else in the life beyond
through fire and torments or "purifying" punishments

Notice how "or purifying punishments" follows right after "fire and torments" suggesting that the fire is a metaphor for purifying punishment.

Nice try Father, but no cigar. Don't you have better things to do than try to discredit the Catholic faith with poor arguements?
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« Reply #506 on: April 03, 2009, 04:27:27 PM »

Fr. Ambrose, It appears, based on the quote below, that the fire used in a symbolic way.
2. It is a divinely revealed truth that sins bring punishments inflicted by God's sanctity
and justice. These must be expiated either on this earth through the sorrows,
miseries and calamities of this life and above all through death,(3) or else in the life beyond
through fire and torments or "purifying" punishments

Notice how "or purifying punishments" follows right after "fire and torments" suggesting that the fire is a metaphor for purifying punishment.

Nice try Father, but no cigar. Don't you have better things to do than try to discredit the Catholic faith with poor arguements?

I am not discrediting the Catholic faith, dear Papist.  The Catholics who wriggle and wriggle and wriggle to remake Catholic teaching in a new moulld do that well enough for themselves.
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« Reply #507 on: April 03, 2009, 04:29:44 PM »

Fr. Ambrose, It appears, based on the quote below, that the fire used in a symbolic way.
2. It is a divinely revealed truth that sins bring punishments inflicted by God's sanctity
and justice. These must be expiated either on this earth through the sorrows,
miseries and calamities of this life and above all through death,(3) or else in the life beyond
through fire and torments or "purifying" punishments

Notice how "or purifying punishments" follows right after "fire and torments" suggesting that the fire is a metaphor for purifying punishment.

Nice try Father, but no cigar. Don't you have better things to do than try to discredit the Catholic faith with poor arguements?

I am not discrediting the Catholic faith, dear Papist.  The Catholics who wriggle and wriggle and wriggle to remake Catholic teaching in a new moulld do that well enough for themselves.
But we are not the one's trying to remake it. You are. You are trying to claim that my Church has defined something that it has not. I cannot be sure why you are doing this but out of Charity I will assume that it is ignorance of the Catholic Church and not something more nefarious.
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« Reply #508 on: April 03, 2009, 04:46:08 PM »

[I am not discrediting the Catholic faith, dear Papist.  The Catholics who wriggle and wriggle and wriggle to remake Catholic teaching in a new moulld do that well enough for themselves.
But we are not the one's trying to remake it. You are. You are trying to claim that my Church has defined something that it has not. I cannot be sure why you are doing this but out of Charity I will assume that it is ignorance of the Catholic Church and not something more nefarious.

Pope Paul VI writes an Apostolic Constitution using the power of his papal magisterium and his authority as Peter.  He proclaims to the Catholic Church:  "It is a divinely revealed truth..."

And you quibble and say..... but it hasn't been defined ?? !!    laugh I have very little charity for these games and deceits.

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« Reply #509 on: April 03, 2009, 06:43:16 PM »

...out of Charity I will assume that it is ignorance of the Catholic Church and not something more nefarious.

In truth, I would prefer you assumed that I am nefarious rather than ignorant.     Grin laugh Grin


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« Reply #510 on: April 04, 2009, 02:20:05 AM »

[I am not discrediting the Catholic faith, dear Papist.  The Catholics who wriggle and wriggle and wriggle to remake Catholic teaching in a new moulld do that well enough for themselves.
But we are not the one's trying to remake it. You are. You are trying to claim that my Church has defined something that it has not. I cannot be sure why you are doing this but out of Charity I will assume that it is ignorance of the Catholic Church and not something more nefarious.

Pope Paul VI writes an Apostolic Constitution using the power of his papal magisterium and his authority as Peter.  He proclaims to the Catholic Church:  "It is a divinely revealed truth..."

And you quibble and say..... but it hasn't been defined ?? !!    laugh I have very little charity for these games and deceits.


No where does he say that it is a divinely revealed truth that we must believe in a literal fire. Sorry Fr. Ambrose you are just not doing very well with this one.
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« Reply #511 on: April 04, 2009, 02:36:32 AM »

[I am not discrediting the Catholic faith, dear Papist.  The Catholics who wriggle and wriggle and wriggle to remake Catholic teaching in a new moulld do that well enough for themselves.
But we are not the one's trying to remake it. You are. You are trying to claim that my Church has defined something that it has not. I cannot be sure why you are doing this but out of Charity I will assume that it is ignorance of the Catholic Church and not something more nefarious.

Pope Paul VI writes an Apostolic Constitution using the power of his papal magisterium and his authority as Peter.  He proclaims to the Catholic Church:  "It is a divinely revealed truth..."

And you quibble and say..... but it hasn't been defined ?? !!    laugh I have very little charity for these games and deceits.


No where does he say that it is a divinely revealed truth that we must believe in a literal fire. Sorry Fr. Ambrose you are just not doing very well with this one.

Um, nowhere have I been discussing a literal fire.  I have been talking about the punishments and torments which the Popes say are inflicted on souls in purgatory.

When you think about it though, what value is a fire, literal or metaphorical, if it does not inflict pain?   I thought that was the whole point of the fire -pain, suffering, purgation, expiation.
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« Reply #512 on: April 04, 2009, 02:38:20 AM »

[I am not discrediting the Catholic faith, dear Papist.  The Catholics who wriggle and wriggle and wriggle to remake Catholic teaching in a new moulld do that well enough for themselves.
But we are not the one's trying to remake it. You are. You are trying to claim that my Church has defined something that it has not. I cannot be sure why you are doing this but out of Charity I will assume that it is ignorance of the Catholic Church and not something more nefarious.

Pope Paul VI writes an Apostolic Constitution using the power of his papal magisterium and his authority as Peter.  He proclaims to the Catholic Church:  "It is a divinely revealed truth..."

And you quibble and say..... but it hasn't been defined ?? !!    laugh I have very little charity for these games and deceits.


No where does he say that it is a divinely revealed truth that we must believe in a literal fire. Sorry Fr. Ambrose you are just not doing very well with this one.

Um, nowhere have I been discussing a literal fire.  I have been talking about the punishments and torments which the Popes say are inflicted on souls in purgatory.

When you think about it though, what value is a fire, literal or metaphorical, if it does not inflict pain?   I thought that was the whole point of the fire -pain, suffering, purgation, expiation.
There is pain and suffereing in purgatory. But it is a purifying punishment. Not punishment for the sake of punishment. It prepares us for God.
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« Reply #513 on: April 04, 2009, 02:41:55 AM »

[I am not discrediting the Catholic faith, dear Papist.  The Catholics who wriggle and wriggle and wriggle to remake Catholic teaching in a new moulld do that well enough for themselves.
But we are not the one's trying to remake it. You are. You are trying to claim that my Church has defined something that it has not. I cannot be sure why you are doing this but out of Charity I will assume that it is ignorance of the Catholic Church and not something more nefarious.

Pope Paul VI writes an Apostolic Constitution using the power of his papal magisterium and his authority as Peter.  He proclaims to the Catholic Church:  "It is a divinely revealed truth..."

And you quibble and say..... but it hasn't been defined ?? !!    laugh I have very little charity for these games and deceits.


No where does he say that it is a divinely revealed truth that we must believe in a literal fire. Sorry Fr. Ambrose you are just not doing very well with this one.

Um, nowhere have I been discussing a literal fire.  I have been talking about the punishments and torments which the Popes say are inflicted on souls in purgatory.

When you think about it though, what value is a fire, literal or metaphorical, if it does not inflict pain?   I thought that was the whole point of the fire -pain, suffering, purgation, expiation.
There is pain and suffereing in purgatory. But it is a purifying punishment. Not punishment for the sake of punishment. It prepares us for God.

So how does this non-literal fire inflict pain and suffering?
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« Reply #514 on: April 04, 2009, 02:45:53 AM »

Not punishment for the sake of punishment.

So there is no expiatory value to this pain and suffering? 

C'mon, Papist, you know that contradicts the teachings of the Popes though centuries past.    They had very definite teaching on expiation and the need for suffering in the afterlife to expiate the temporal punishment which is due to sin. 
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« Reply #515 on: April 04, 2009, 02:57:02 AM »

Not punishment for the sake of punishment.

So there is no expiatory value to this pain and suffering? 

C'mon, Papist, you know that contradicts the teachings of the Popes though centuries past.    They had very definite teaching on expiation and the need for suffering in the afterlife to expiate the temporal punishment which is due to sin. 
Sure but only a secondary expiation. Christ is the true expiation for our sins. Anything we do is only efficacious under the umbrella of his grace and saving death. And now I am off to bed.
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« Reply #516 on: April 04, 2009, 03:02:47 AM »

so with what is purgatory related to : With Seol the place of the death , With prison ?
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« Reply #517 on: April 04, 2009, 08:19:35 AM »

There is pain and suffereing in purgatory. But it is a purifying punishment. Not punishment for the sake of punishment. It prepares us for God.

You are doing very well, Papist, but it will take one or two more steps before you grasp the full concept of purgatory and its purpose.

Let's look at the Council of Trent - and its infallible teaching.  The Pope and bishops teach that the purpose of purgatory is the expiation of sin, or the discharge of the debt of temporal punishment 

"If anyone says that after the reception of the grace of justification
the guilt is so remitted and the debt of eternal punishment so blotted
out to every repentant sinner, that no debt of temporal punishment
remains to be discharged either in this world or in purgatory before
the gates of heaven can be opened, let him be anathema." 
~ Trent, Canon 30.


Also the Catechism of the Catholic Church speaks about "those who are expiating their sins in purgatory."

CCC 1475:  "In the communion of saints, "a perennial link of charity
exists between the faithful who have already reached their heavenly home,
those who are expiating their sins in purgatory and those who are still
pilgrims on earth. between them there is, too, an abundant exchange of all
good things."  In this wonderful exchange, the holiness of one profits others,
well beyond the harm that the sin of one could cause others. Thus recourse
to the communion of saints lets the contrite sinner be more promptly and
efficaciously purified of the punishments for sin."

Notice the vocabulary - guilt, debt, temporal punishment, expiation, punishments for sin.

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« Reply #518 on: April 04, 2009, 04:40:41 PM »

Father Ambrose, what's your point? I do not deny any of this. I have argued quite passionately on other threads that we recieve temporal punishment for the guilt of our sins. I just happen to believe that the ultimate purpose of punishing the guilt of our sins is to make us more Holy.
The only thing that I am denying is that purgatory is literal fire. That is the entire purpose of my arguement here. I am not sure why you are trying to take me downthe rabbit hole that is your view of Catholic theology.
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« Reply #519 on: April 04, 2009, 04:57:39 PM »


The only thing that I am denying is that purgatory is literal fire. That is the entire purpose of my arguement here.

Truth to tell I did not know that since the messages have not been about a literal fire at least not eh ones I have been reading.

But I would have to ask again, what is the purpose of a fire, literal or illusionary,  unless it inflicts pain and suffering?
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« Reply #520 on: April 04, 2009, 05:51:31 PM »


If you notice, he did not bother to answer my question: Find me any ecumenical council (as defined by the Catholic Church) which states that a literal fire must be believed.

Maybe because the request does not make sense to an Orthodox person.  We live within the faith which has been handed down to us, within our Tradition.   Not all of that has received formulation at an Ecumenical Council.  Much of it hasn't.


To give you examples - there is no Ecumenical Council teaching on the Eucharistic Presence, nor on the Dormition and Assumption of the Mother of God.  And we don't even have a conciliar definition of the Church!    But we have managed very nicely through the centuries and Pope Benedict has been so kind as to say that (apart from our obstinacy about his supremacy) we have every doctrinal teaching present and correct.

Your position of, "Give me an Ecumenical Council or I will not believe" is an attack on Tradition.  What should we say of the faith of the second century? Could people deny the Real Presence, the divinity of Christ, the perpetual virginity of the Mother of God  - because of the lack of a definition from an Ecumenical Council?

No. You're the one telling us what we believe as a matter of faith. Thus I am asking you to back up your assertions with references to defined teaching in our Church, or else withdraw those assertions.

Frankly, it is rude to tell other people what they believe. Your obsession with Catholicism does not reflect well on you---I think AMM's descriptions here are very apt.

So I ask again: Back up your assertions or withdraw them.
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« Reply #521 on: April 04, 2009, 06:45:58 PM »

 Roll Eyes

Methinks Fr. Ambrose, the Irish Hermit, knows more about Roman Catholicism than any forum member (from either side of the schism).
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« Reply #522 on: April 04, 2009, 07:01:50 PM »

Thus I am asking you to back up your assertions with references to defined teaching in our Church, or else withdraw those assertions.

It is a strange emphasis of modern Catholicism that uses the argument:  "Show us the definition or you haven't got a leg to stand on."  I think that I've said before that this attitude is an attack on holy Tradition.  In fact I would go so far as to say that any church organisation whose belief system is only what has been defined in stamped documents from Rome is demonstrating that it is not the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church which was instructed by the Apostles to live by tradition and not by definition.   The reduction of the living faith to officially sanctioned definitions is an aberration.  This is a long way from the spirit of Orthodoxy, and it is one of the basic differences betwen our Churches which make attempts at union so difficult.

Of course this attitude suits modern Catholicism which is in the process of re-inventing itself after Vatican II.  It enables modern Catholic theologians to consign to the scrapheap any number of traditional things taught by the Popes and universally believed by the faithful in past centuries.

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« Reply #523 on: April 04, 2009, 07:11:49 PM »

Thus I am asking you to back up your assertions with references to defined teaching in our Church, or else withdraw those assertions.

It is a strange emphasis of modern Catholicism that uses the argument:  "Show us the definition or you haven't got a leg to stand on."  I think that I've said before that this attitude is an attack on holy Tradition.  In fact I would go so far as to say that any church organisation whose belief system is only what has been defined in stamped documents from Rome is demonstrating that it is not the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church which was instructed by the Apostles to live by tradition and not by definition.   The reduction of the living faith to officially sanctioned definitions is an aberration.  This is a long way from the spirit of Orthodoxy, and it is one of the basic differences betwen our Churches which make attempts at union so difficult.

Of course this attitude suits modern Catholicism which is in the process of re-inventing itself after Vatican II.  It enables modern Catholic theologians to consign to the scrapheap any number of traditional things taught by the Popes and universally believed by the faithful in past centuries.


But that isn't the point.  You were asked to provide evidence from the body of Catholic doctrine, that which Catholics consider authoritative, that what you claim they believe is really what they believe.  You weren't asked to comment on how they formulate their beliefs.
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« Reply #524 on: April 04, 2009, 07:44:13 PM »

[But that isn't the point.  You were asked to provide evidence from the body of Catholic doctrine, that which Catholics consider authoritative, that what you claim they believe is really what they believe.

And I have done so, several times. 

Quote
You weren't asked to comment on how they formulate their beliefs.

I may not have been asked to comment but I chose to introduce this into the discussion since it is crucial to understanding how modern Catholics justify changing the faith that was believed by previous Popes and by their ancestors, even such recent ones as their grandparents.  This has a special relevance to the doctrine of purgatory.

However, please go back to the various references I have provided in this thread.  In particular please read the reference to the 1967 Apostolic Constitution of Pope Paul VI Indulgentiarum Doctrina.

I thought that such a recent papal statement would carry some weight with Lubeltri but it seems that I was wrong. 

I could provide many many references from the Popes and eminent RC theologians of previous centuires but it would be useless.  These too will be ignored and dismissed as not infallible.   I have seen this time and time again in discussions on purgatory and other topics.  So that is why I have confined myself to referring to contemporary Popes.


But certainly I have provided references to authoritative Catholic papal teaching.  My previous messages show that. 
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« Reply #525 on: April 04, 2009, 08:17:20 PM »

But that isn't the point.  You were asked to provide evidence from the body of Catholic doctrine, that which Catholics consider authoritative, that what you claim they believe is really what they believe. 

I have checked and see that in message #36 I provided authoritative material from

1. the Baltimore Catechism
2. the Catholic Encyclopedia
3. Thomas Aquinas and the Summa Theologica.

Later in messages #41 and $65  I provided material from

Pope Paul VI's Apostolic Constitution Indulgentiarium Doctrina

It would be possible, as I am sure Lubeltri is aware, to go back through the centuries and offer material from many Popes but I know from experience that these will be unacceptable as genuine papal teaching.
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« Reply #526 on: April 04, 2009, 10:19:22 PM »

I must say, Fr Ambrose, that you are really opening up my eyes to things I did not understand before regarding Catholicism. Actually, my wife and I were involved at one time in RCIA classes but ultimately we left. Seeing how doctrine changes in the Catholic Church (as you have demonstrated conclusively) I'm now glad we did withdraw.
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« Reply #527 on: April 04, 2009, 10:36:03 PM »

[
But that isn't the point.  You were asked to provide evidence from the body of Catholic doctrine, that which Catholics consider authoritative, that what you claim they believe is really what they believe. 

The Catechism of Pope Saint Pius X

Notice the terminology: satisfaction for sins, propitiatory sacrifice, punishment


9 Q. For what ends then is the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass offered?

A. The Sacrifice of the Mass is offered to God for four ends: (1) To honour Him properly, and hence it is called Latreutical; (2) To thank Him for His favours, and hence it is called Eucharistical; (3) To appease Him, make Him due satisfaction for our sins, and to help the souls in Purgatory, and hence it is called Propitiatory

109 Q. Why is a penance imposed in confession?

A. A penance is imposed because, after sacramental absolution which remits sin and its eternal punishment, there generally remains a temporal punishment to be undergone, either in this world or in Purgatory.

Source  ::  http://www.ewtn.com/library/CATECHSM/PIUSXCAT.htm
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« Reply #528 on: April 05, 2009, 12:03:49 AM »

[
But that isn't the point.  You were asked to provide evidence from the body of Catholic doctrine, that which Catholics consider authoritative, that what you claim they believe is really what they believe. 

The Catechism of Pope Saint Pius X

Notice the terminology: satisfaction for sins, propitiatory sacrifice, punishment


9 Q. For what ends then is the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass offered?

A. The Sacrifice of the Mass is offered to God for four ends: (1) To honour Him properly, and hence it is called Latreutical; (2) To thank Him for His favours, and hence it is called Eucharistical; (3) To appease Him, make Him due satisfaction for our sins, and to help the souls in Purgatory, and hence it is called Propitiatory

109 Q. Why is a penance imposed in confession?

A. A penance is imposed because, after sacramental absolution which remits sin and its eternal punishment, there generally remains a temporal punishment to be undergone, either in this world or in Purgatory.

Source  ::  http://www.ewtn.com/library/CATECHSM/PIUSXCAT.htm

And I don't think anyone is objecting to this so I am not sure who you are arguing with. I am only objecting to the idea that Catholics must believe that purgatory is literal fire.
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« Reply #529 on: April 05, 2009, 12:04:31 AM »

Roll Eyes

Methinks Fr. Ambrose, the Irish Hermit, knows more about Roman Catholicism than any forum member (from either side of the schism).
Methinks you need to rethink your position.n Wink
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« Reply #530 on: April 05, 2009, 12:57:29 AM »


The only thing that I am denying is that purgatory is literal fire. That is the entire purpose of my arguement here.

Truth to tell I did not know that since the messages have not been about a literal fire at least not eh ones I have been reading.

But I would have to ask again, what is the purpose of a fire, literal or illusionary,  unless it inflicts pain and suffering?

To cleanse as in smelting... the process of separating a metal from it's impurities by heating the concentrate to a high temperature to cause the metal to melt. Smelting the concentrate produces a metal or a high-grade metallic mixture along with a solid waste product called slag.
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« Reply #531 on: April 05, 2009, 03:34:11 AM »

But I would have to ask again, what is the purpose of a fire, literal or illusionary,  unless it inflicts pain and suffering?

To cleanse as in smelting... the process of separating a metal from it's impurities by heating the concentrate to a high temperature to cause the metal to melt. Smelting the concentrate produces a metal or a high-grade metallic mixture along with a solid waste product called slag.

We'd have to agree with Saint Augustine and Thomas Aquinas that the pain of such a thing is worse than any of us could imagine.

It sems quite brutal that the Pope has at his control the means of ending all this misery in the twinkling of an eye by exercising his power to allocate the merits of Christ.    Why does he not provide indulgences to all the Holy Souls?   
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« Reply #532 on: April 05, 2009, 09:56:04 AM »

But I would have to ask again, what is the purpose of a fire, literal or illusionary,  unless it inflicts pain and suffering?

To cleanse as in smelting... the process of separating a metal from it's impurities by heating the concentrate to a high temperature to cause the metal to melt. Smelting the concentrate produces a metal or a high-grade metallic mixture along with a solid waste product called slag.

We'd have to agree with Saint Augustine and Thomas Aquinas that the pain of such a thing is worse than any of us could imagine.

It sems quite brutal that the Pope has at his control the means of ending all this misery in the twinkling of an eye by exercising his power to allocate the merits of Christ.    Why does he not provide indulgences to all the Holy Souls?   
Taking away a healthy fear of purgatory is not a good thing. Just like a healthy fear of hell, it keeps us on our toes. Is it worse than can be imagined? Probably. Is it also better than can be imagined? Probably. The Holy souls in purgatory are in pain due to their suffering but they are also joyful becuase they know that their battle is over and that they are destined for heaven.
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« Reply #533 on: April 05, 2009, 10:07:30 AM »

Taking away a healthy fear of purgatory is not a good thing.
Yes it is a good thing.
We should not even fear hell.
There is nothing to fear but fear itself. Perfect Love drives out all fear.
Fear God.
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« Reply #534 on: April 05, 2009, 10:10:56 AM »

Taking away a healthy fear of purgatory is not a good thing.
Yes it is a good thing.
We should not even fear hell.
There is nothing to fear but fear itself. Perfect Love drives out all fear.
Fear God.
In one breath you try to use the scriptural passage that perfect love drives out all fear to reject the idea of the fear of purgatory. Then you state that we should fear God. You are being inconsistant. Either the scriptural passage means all fear in the literal sense and we must not fear God, or it does not mean "all" literally and thus does not support your arguement.
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« Reply #535 on: April 05, 2009, 10:14:08 AM »

In one breath you try to use the scriptural passage that perfect love drives out all fear to reject the idea of the fear of purgatory. Then you state that we should fear God. You are being inconsistant. Either the scriptural passage means all fear in the literal sense and we must not fear God, or it does not mean "all" literally and thus does not support your arguement.

Fear of God is not "being afraid of Him". Fear of God is the same fear we have of offending any Loved One. If only you loved God, you would not be afraid of Him.
May you be liberated from the fear in which you live your life.
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« Reply #536 on: April 05, 2009, 10:18:26 AM »

Taking away a healthy fear of purgatory is not a good thing. Just like a healthy fear of hell, it keeps us on our toes. Is it worse than can be imagined? Probably. Is it also better than can be imagined? Probably. The Holy souls in purgatory are in pain due to their suffering but they are also joyful becuase they know that their battle is over and that they are destined for heaven.

Wouldn't you agree that it is irresponsbile that the Popes exercise their power of indulgences so capriciously?

They set up scenarios with a set of conditions (for example, walking backwards around St Patrick's Purgatory at Lough Derg three times)  which enable their faithful to spring Holy Souls out of purgatory in an instant.   No doubt a lot of Souls were released into heaven in this manner prior to Vatican II when people took indulgences seriously and made every effort to gain them.  Indeed on All Souls Day Catholic churches were crowded with people coming and going and coming again in order to gain indulgences to get Souls out of Purgatory.  And do you remember the great Purgatorial Archconfraternities which must have liberated hundreds of thousands of Souls from the fires and torments?

These last few decades Catholics seem to have forgotten about indulgences and some are quite embarrassed by them.  So Purgatory must be more crowded than ever since fewer people are being released and many more have to suffer there for the full term of their temporal punishment.

Now all this misery can be cured in a flash if the Popes would just release the locks on the infinite merits of Christ which are theirs to dispose of as they will.

This extremely erratic and really rather silly and uncharitable system in the afterlife is all the fault of the Popes.
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« Reply #537 on: April 05, 2009, 02:31:29 PM »

In one breath you try to use the scriptural passage that perfect love drives out all fear to reject the idea of the fear of purgatory. Then you state that we should fear God. You are being inconsistant. Either the scriptural passage means all fear in the literal sense and we must not fear God, or it does not mean "all" literally and thus does not support your arguement.

Fear of God is not "being afraid of Him". Fear of God is the same fear we have of offending any Loved One. If only you loved God, you would not be afraid of Him.
May you be liberated from the fear in which you live your life.

If you not have a healthy fear of God's judgement seat then you don't worship the God of the scriptures. May God you to true reverence of his justice.
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« Reply #538 on: April 05, 2009, 02:33:22 PM »

Taking away a healthy fear of purgatory is not a good thing. Just like a healthy fear of hell, it keeps us on our toes. Is it worse than can be imagined? Probably. Is it also better than can be imagined? Probably. The Holy souls in purgatory are in pain due to their suffering but they are also joyful becuase they know that their battle is over and that they are destined for heaven.

Wouldn't you agree that it is irresponsbile that the Popes exercise their power of indulgences so capriciously?

They set up scenarios with a set of conditions (for example, walking backwards around St Patrick's Purgatory at Lough Derg three times)  which enable their faithful to spring Holy Souls out of purgatory in an instant.   No doubt a lot of Souls were released into heaven in this manner prior to Vatican II when people took indulgences seriously and made every effort to gain them.  Indeed on All Souls Day Catholic churches were crowded with people coming and going and coming again in order to gain indulgences to get Souls out of Purgatory.  And do you remember the great Purgatorial Archconfraternities which must have liberated hundreds of thousands of Souls from the fires and torments?

These last few decades Catholics seem to have forgotten about indulgences and some are quite embarrassed by them.  So Purgatory must be more crowded than ever since fewer people are being released and many more have to suffer there for the full term of their temporal punishment.

Now all this misery can be cured in a flash if the Popes would just release the locks on the infinite merits of Christ which are theirs to dispose of as they will.

This extremely erratic and really rather silly and uncharitable system in the afterlife is all the fault of the Popes.
No what is silly is that I allow myself to be drawn into conversations with you about purgatory because you continue to view Catholic theology in the worst possible light and refuse to believe that we believe what we say we believe.
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« Reply #539 on: April 05, 2009, 04:25:46 PM »

Wouldn't you agree that it is irresponsible that the Popes exercise their power of indulgences so capriciously?

They set up scenarios with a set of conditions (for example, walking backwards around St Patrick's Purgatory at Lough Derg three times)  which enable their faithful to spring Holy Souls out of purgatory in an instant.   No doubt a lot of Souls were released into heaven in this manner prior to Vatican II when people took indulgences seriously and made every effort to gain them.  Indeed on All Souls Day Catholic churches were crowded with people coming and going and coming again in order to gain indulgences to get Souls out of Purgatory.  And do you remember the great Purgatorial Archconfraternities which must have liberated hundreds of thousands of Souls from the fires and torments?

These last few decades Catholics seem to have forgotten about indulgences and some are quite embarrassed by them.  So Purgatory must be more crowded than ever since fewer people are being released and many more have to suffer there for the full term of their temporal punishment.

Now all this misery can be cured in a flash if the Popes would just release the locks on the infinite merits of Christ which are theirs to dispose of as they will.

This extremely erratic and really rather silly and uncharitable system in the afterlife is all the fault of the Popes.
No what is silly is that I allow myself to be drawn into conversations with you about purgatory because you continue to view Catholic theology in the worst possible light and refuse to believe that we believe what we say we believe.

If you had a way and you could rehabilitate all the prisoners in jail and release them into society, wouldn't you be a total misanthrope if you did not do it?   Well, the Pope has the power to release every Soul from Purgatory but what he is doing?  He is sitting on the treasury of Christ's merits and doling them out in tiny quantities when there's nothing to prevent him bestowing these merits on every Soul in Purgatory.

It's mean-spirited and the whole present system is capricious.   
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