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Author Topic: Indulgences, Temporal Punishment, Purgatory, etc  (Read 177105 times) Average Rating: 5
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Joab Anias
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« Reply #45 on: December 08, 2007, 09:29:46 PM »

So are indulgences pretty much the Catholic way of "burning incense for the forgiveness of the departed faithfuls' sins?"

Yes, they are offered up penances of prayer or ascetical acts of piety for many intentions from ones self to others as part of the communion of Saints. They are defined from various sources by the Church with the powers of binding and loosing.

Peace.
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« Reply #46 on: December 08, 2007, 09:35:43 PM »

While the Catholic exposition of this adds a very cumbersome legalism to the concept, the same idea does exist in Orthodox ascetic literature.  The negative impact of a some minor sin done once and without much though will be much easier to recover from than a very serious and passionate sin.  i.e someone entering a monastery after committing fornication everyday for twenty years is going to require a greater spiritual transformation to reach dispassion than someone who lost his patience one time or some minor matter. 

It may seem cumbersome but remember its a matter of ascetical devotions that only prove to be efficacious for ones personal relationship with the Lord. The only part of the belief that is to be ascended to as dogmatic is the communion of Saints.

Peace.
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« Reply #47 on: December 08, 2007, 09:37:11 PM »

Again, sources, please... not to mention the discussion is about 'purgatory' for the reposed (which your 'observation, if that is what it is does not directly address.)

The source for Purgatory is Jesus. He says it all in scripture. And since when does Orthodoxy not rank sins?
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« Reply #48 on: December 08, 2007, 09:46:09 PM »

And your evidence for this is...?

Looks like you just blew off post 27.

Here this is simpler just for you:

Jesus implies that our sins can be forgiven in the next world.

Mt 12:32
And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

Scripture from the Greek Septuagint, the Old Testament of Christ, the Evangelists and Paul, and of the councils of Hippo and Carthage, affirm purgatory.

2 Mc 12:42-46
Turning to supplication, they prayed that the sinful deed might be fully blotted out. The noble Judas warned the soldiers to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen. He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin.

Do you need more evidence than the word of God? If you do I can't help you.
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« Reply #49 on: December 08, 2007, 09:50:14 PM »

Very cute with your implications that I'm stupid.  About what I expect out of Latins.

Let me put it this way, your evidence supporting the efficacy of prayers for the dead is not evidence supporting purgatory.  You're either a) deliberately using evidence in a misleading manner or b) conflating the two concepts in a poorly reasoned argument.  You tell us which it is.
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« Reply #50 on: December 08, 2007, 09:56:56 PM »

Very cute with your implications that I'm stupid.  About what I expect out of Latins.

Let me put it this way, your evidence supporting the efficacy of prayers for the dead is not evidence supporting purgatory.  You're either a) deliberately using evidence in a misleading manner or b) conflating the two concepts in a poorly reasoned argument.  You tell us which it is.

Asking for evidence that has already been provided implys only what is obvious.

I am sorry Scripture is something you don't find as evidence or efficatious.

By the way, I am glad you low expectations of us Latins. We need that.

Thanks again.
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« Reply #51 on: December 08, 2007, 10:00:22 PM »

I'll make it simple:  Your evidence doesn't show what you are claiming it does.
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« Reply #52 on: December 08, 2007, 10:13:53 PM »

Joab Anias,
I think what Veniamin is saying (and I actually agree with him) is that you keep citing evidence for the Church's prayers for the dead as being evidence for the existence of Purgatory, but this is not necessarily the same.
It's like making a medical diagnosis based on one symptom. The existence of a fever does not tell you whether a person is infected, because there are other causes of fever apart from infection (for example, dehydration, heat stroke etc.)
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« Reply #53 on: December 08, 2007, 10:15:34 PM »

Joab Anias,
I think what Veniamin is saying (and I actually agree with him) is that you keep citing evidence for the Church's prayers for the dead as being evidence for the existence of Purgatory, but this is not necessarily the same.

Thank you, that's precisely what I've been saying the whole time.

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« Reply #54 on: December 08, 2007, 10:20:08 PM »

I'll make it simple:  Your evidence doesn't show what you are claiming it does.

I know it does because I submit to the word of God. You will find out when you get there.

Heb 12:29
For our God is a consuming fire.

1 Cor 3:11-15
For no one can lay a foundation other than the one that is there, namely, Jesus Christ. If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, the work of each will come to light, for the Day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire (itself) will test the quality of each one's work. If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. But if someone's work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire.

You can deny scripture all you like but it won't change God. Purgatory will be efficatious in correcting what we are lacking here so many will still be saved.

Or perhaps there was no point in Jesus telling us to be perfect just as His Father is perfect.
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« Reply #55 on: December 08, 2007, 10:31:17 PM »

Heb 12:29
For our God is a consuming fire.
Yes, He is. In fact, He is a River of Fire. I'm glad you accept the Orthodox Dogma of the Divine Energies. Wink

1 Cor 3:11-15
For no one can lay a foundation other than the one that is there, namely, Jesus Christ. If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, the work of each will come to light, for the Day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire (itself) will test the quality of each one's work. If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. But if someone's work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire.
Do you see the words I have emphasised in your evidence? The divine "fire" which consumes will appear on the Day of Judgement.
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« Reply #56 on: December 08, 2007, 10:32:59 PM »

1 Cor 3:11-15
For no one can lay a foundation other than the one that is there, namely, Jesus Christ. If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, the work of each will come to light, for the Day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire (itself) will test the quality of each one's work. If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. But if someone's work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire. 

This passage is also interpreted to be referring to life, not death, and to the members of the Church, not to an individual.  I'll quote our Orthodox Study Bible (all emphasis is theirs):

"3:6-17 The Church is an organic whole: (1) it is planted (vv. 6-9), (2) a building (vv. 9-11), (3) a temple (vv. 16, 17).  In vv. 16,17 you is plural and refers to the whole Church.  One, who would break this unity would desecrate a sacred place.

3:9 Fellow workers (Gr. synergoi) is the biblical concept of synergism, shown here by how the Apostles work together with God in carrying out the ministry.  So too, we as God's fellow workers cooperate with Him to do His will.  By this cooperation or synergy with God, we do not mean a working together of equals, or a so-called fifty-fifty arrangement.  Rather we mean that He is the Lord, and we His servants are called to participate obediently in His work.

3:18-20 The wisdom of this world (v. 19) is attractive and reasonable, and on the surface appears to be true.  But such earthly wisdom denies God and leads us away from Him - not to fulfillment, but to death.  True wisdom and life are found only in Christ, in our total abandonment to the love of God and neighbor.

3:21-23 Yours and you here are plural.  They refer not to the individual but to the corporate Church.  The Church possesses the whole, all things, because the Church is the body of Christ - His perfect and glorified humanity - and Christ is God.  Individual opinion in doctrine and private interpretation of Scripture which stand apart from that of the Church, or outside of apostolic tradition, are marks of worldly wisdom."
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« Reply #57 on: December 08, 2007, 10:37:25 PM »

Joab Anias,
I think what Veniamin is saying (and I actually agree with him) is that you keep citing evidence for the Church's prayers for the dead as being evidence for the existence of Purgatory, but this is not necessarily the same.
It's like making a medical diagnosis based on one symptom. The existence of a fever does not tell you whether a person is infected, because there are other causes of fever apart from infection (for example, dehydration, heat stroke etc.)

That's not the only evidence though. Its that evidence that you have no problem with coming to light in the dogma of the communion of saints because it was before the schism but because of the schism, the east dropped out and didn't follow its development with the Holy Spirit guiding the west into the dogma of purgatory. In response what do you have, the doctrine of toll houses that has been denounced by your bishops?

I have never seen one exegesis against purgatory even from protesters. Only denial upon denial in satans ploys to sew confusion. If anyone expects me to believe a denial of what hermeneutics and exegesis proves to me then they must at least back up their denial with some semblance of historical fact or scriptural exegesis. I am still waiting. It will never come. If the greatest protesters of Martin Luther or Calvin couldn't come up with it, then why would you expect me to just deny the fullness of the apostolic faith I understand as cohesive because those who ceased to follow the development of doctrine calls it superfluous or fails to assert the intellectual reasoning to understand it as well. It doesn't wash and its an even weaker argument than I get from sola scipturists.

Peace.

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« Reply #58 on: December 08, 2007, 10:42:00 PM »

Or perhaps there was no point in Jesus telling us to be perfect just as His Father is perfect.

Lol.  Reductio ad absurdum.  Doesn't normally work here - you'd be better off with that line in a sermon or public speech, where people emotionally react to it immediately, rather than on an internet forum where people take time and think about things.

Look, you're really not going to get anywhere trying to prove that all those verses you've quoted and referenced actually point to purgatory - our Orthodox interpretation, fueled by 2000 years of listening to and reading scripture, is that they only refer to the efficacy of prayers on behalf of the dead, and God's ability and willingness to change things before Judgment Day.
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« Reply #59 on: December 08, 2007, 10:43:25 PM »

Yes, He is. In fact, He is a River of Fire. I'm glad you accept the Orthodox Dogma of the Divine Energies. Wink

Is that what I am doing? You know, I don't know allot about that doctrine but I don't believe there is anything contrary to the Orthodox Catholic faith by what I know. It seems as a different expression of the same faith to me. Can you site an Orthodox synod that dogmatized that doctrine?

Quote
Do you see the words I have emphasised in your evidence? The divine "fire" which consumes will appear on the Day of Judgement.

Yes, I agree. In regard to purgatory we only claim that it exists and that prayer for the dead is efficacious. As far as I know expiation of sin could be instantaneous in our concept of time in this world. Remember in the world to come time is meaningless.

Peace.
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« Reply #60 on: December 08, 2007, 10:45:25 PM »

More from St. Paul on the Divine Fire which will both consume and save on the Last Day:
And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction because of the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power (2 Thessalonians 1:7-9)

"Translating 2 Thess 1:7-8 from the Greek literally, St. Paul tells the persecuted Thessalonians that they will "get relief at the revelation of the Lord Jesus coming out from heaven with His powerful angels in flames of fire". Yet this same presence of Jesus causes the ones persecuting them to "…be punished with everlasting destruction BECAUSE OF [Gr. "apo"] the presence of the Lord, and BECAUSE OF his mighty glory" (2 Thess 1:9). Further on Paul writes in 2Thess 2:8 that "the lawless one, whom the Lord Jesus will destroy by the breath [or "spirit"] of his mouth and make ineffective by the fantastic appearance of his presence". So the mere presence of Jesus makes the "lawless one" ineffective, yet gives relief and comfort to the Thessalonians."  Source

 
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« Reply #61 on: December 08, 2007, 10:45:39 PM »

That's not the only evidence though. Its that evidence that you have no problem with coming to light in the dogma of the communion of saints because it was before the schism but because of the schism, the east dropped out and didn't follow its development with the Holy Spirit guiding the west into the dogma of purgatory. In response what do you have, the doctrine of toll houses that has been denounced by your bishops?

I have never seen one exegesis against purgatory even from protesters. Only denial upon denial in satans ploys to sew confusion. If anyone expects me to believe a denial of what hermeneutics and exegesis proves to me then they must at least back up their denial with some semblance of historical fact or scriptural exegesis. I am still waiting. It will never come. If the greatest protesters of Martin Luther or Calvin couldn't come up with it, then why would you expect me to just deny the fullness of the apostolic faith I understand as cohesive because those who ceased to follow the development of doctrine calls it superfluous or fails to assert the intellectual reasoning to understand it as well. It doesn't wash and its an even weaker argument than I get from sola scipturists.

Peace. 

You want your proof?  Learn Greek and Russian - cause most of the Orthodox theological writings in existence have not yet been translated.  You've been trying to convince us of Purgatory for centuries and you're hermeneutics and exegesis haven't amounted to much - in most Orthodox circles your methodology in coming up with the specific doctrine of Purgatory is considered more isigesis than exegesis.
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« Reply #62 on: December 08, 2007, 10:49:57 PM »

Lol.  Reductio ad absurdum.  Doesn't normally work here - you'd be better off with that line in a sermon or public speech, where people emotionally react to it immediately, rather than on an internet forum where people take time and think about things.

Look, you're really not going to get anywhere trying to prove that all those verses you've quoted and referenced actually point to purgatory - our Orthodox interpretation, fueled by 2000 years of listening to and reading scripture, is that they only refer to the efficacy of prayers on behalf of the dead, and God's ability and willingness to change things before Judgment Day.

I really don't care to prove anything. I am just providing answers asked for and dispell misconceptions. If the askers really didn't want to know why we believe what we do then they shouldn't ask or pretend that there is no evidence. If its a matter of interpretation thats well and good. The fact remains is that it is Dogmatized in the western Chruch and any faithful of good conscience should assend to its belief. Perhaps a day will come when there can be an ecumenical do over of that council but I don't expect to live to see it. Its not necessary though I think the Church is patient.
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« Reply #63 on: December 08, 2007, 10:51:53 PM »

Enjoy.  I don't normally reference their work, but I don't have any scriptural references at my home... Anyway, it's a decent article:

The Orthodox Response to the Latin Doctrine of Purgatory
Given at the Pseudo-Synod of Ferrara-Florence

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/death/stmark_purg.aspx

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« Reply #64 on: December 08, 2007, 10:55:23 PM »

More from St. Paul on the Divine Fire which will both consume and save on the Last Day:
And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction because of the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power (2 Thessalonians 1:7-9)

"Translating 2 Thess 1:7-8 from the Greek literally, St. Paul tells the persecuted Thessalonians that they will "get relief at the revelation of the Lord Jesus coming out from heaven with His powerful angels in flames of fire". Yet this same presence of Jesus causes the ones persecuting them to "…be punished with everlasting destruction BECAUSE OF [Gr. "apo"] the presence of the Lord, and BECAUSE OF his mighty glory" (2 Thess 1:9). Further on Paul writes in 2Thess 2:8 that "the lawless one, whom the Lord Jesus will destroy by the breath [or "spirit"] of his mouth and make ineffective by the fantastic appearance of his presence". So the mere presence of Jesus makes the "lawless one" ineffective, yet gives relief and comfort to the Thessalonians."  Source

 

Not sure I am getting your point here. Purgatory isn't a punishment. Its an expiation of the saved. There is no condemnation from there. They know the joy of being in heaven once expiated for one cannot unite to perfection until he is perfected himself though by no fault of his own may have failed to achieve such perfection in this life. You see purgatory is mercy.
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« Reply #65 on: December 08, 2007, 10:59:32 PM »

I really don't care to prove anything.

I'm calling you on this one... Your first post was a drive-by attempt into wowing someone into believing in purgatory.  You were trying to prove something.

When people have been asking you for proof, here's what they wanted: authoritative sources of the Catholic church that tie the specific scriptural passages you referenced to the doctrine of purgatory.  See, you Church, like ours, believes that people aren't to interpret scripture on their own, but instead trust in the wisdom of the Church.  When we say "look, these passages don't mean what you've implied" after you posted them, we're saying "prove it."

There's no hate here (at least not on my part; and knowing the others who have posted here, probably not on their parts, either), just a desire to see more than just a "drive-by."
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« Reply #66 on: December 08, 2007, 11:01:02 PM »

Not sure I am getting your point here. Purgatory isn't a punishment. Its an expiation of the saved. There is no condemnation from there. They know the joy of being in heaven once expiated for one cannot unite to perfection until he is perfected himself though by no fault of his own may have failed to achieve such perfection in this life. You see purgatory is mercy.

And essentially this line of thinking fails with the Orthodox because (a) we have a completely different belief on the effect of sin, and (b) by the criteria listed only the Virgin Mary would have skipped Purgatory... So what's the point?
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« Reply #67 on: December 08, 2007, 11:23:20 PM »

Enjoy.  I don't normally reference their work, but I don't have any scriptural references at my home... Anyway, it's a decent article:

The Orthodox Response to the Latin Doctrine of Purgatory
Given at the Pseudo-Synod of Ferrara-Florence

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/death/stmark_purg.aspx



So what matters more, the individual arguments or the conciliarity of the council and obedience to that final declaration?

I cannot come to believe that a dogma is reversible because not all agreed or understood with a like mind.

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« Reply #68 on: December 08, 2007, 11:30:56 PM »

And essentially this line of thinking fails with the Orthodox because;

(a) we have a completely different belief on the effect of sin,

I don't find that at all.

Quote
(b) by the criteria listed only the Virgin Mary would have skipped Purgatory... So what's the point?

Untrue. That would negate the whole canonization process. Were called to prefection by Jesus. We must trust in Jesus. The point is to expiate what cannot be permitted into heaven. Its mercy that provides a way. Its not condemnation or even punishment its mercy.

By the way thanks for taking the time to look up the source.
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« Reply #69 on: December 08, 2007, 11:35:06 PM »

So what matters more, the individual arguments or the conciliarity of the council and obedience to that final declaration?

I cannot come to believe that a dogma is reversible because not all agreed or understood with a like mind. 

I, as an Orthodox Christian, respect your decision to stay with the pronouncement of your council.  Of course, "not understood with a like mind" is an understatement when those who don't read with like mind are the second largest Church in the world (next to your own), and are the only other Church who can document Apostolic Continuity.
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« Reply #70 on: December 08, 2007, 11:38:11 PM »

I don't find that at all. 

Well, our differing views of sin lead are reflected in places other than Purgatory, such as our different definitions of the effects of the sin of Adam and Eve, our different approaches to the conception of the Virgin Mary (by the way - Happy Feastday!), and our approach to sin (mortal/venial distinctions, etc.).
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« Reply #71 on: December 08, 2007, 11:50:40 PM »

Well, our differing views of sin lead are reflected in places other than Purgatory, such as our different definitions of the effects of the sin of Adam and Eve, our different approaches to the conception of the Virgin Mary (by the way - Happy Feastday!), and our approach to sin (mortal/venial distinctions, etc.).

Yes I know. I see the differences mostly as misconceptions.

Thanks. You know I went to the solemnity today and renewed my consecration to Mary on its 10 year anniversary and there wasn't even so much as the mention of Mary in the whole Mass. I am still scratching my head over that one. Just this diocese I guess.

Peace.
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« Reply #72 on: December 08, 2007, 11:52:03 PM »

I, as an Orthodox Christian, respect your decision to stay with the pronouncement of your council.  Of course, "not understood with a like mind" is an understatement when those who don't read with like mind are the second largest Church in the world (next to your own), and are the only other Church who can document Apostolic Continuity.

Let us pray they get it back together as a sign for the world.
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« Reply #73 on: December 08, 2007, 11:57:44 PM »

Hence, if one does not rank sins, this then does seem odd, superfluous, and unnecessary.
I wanted to try to understand this notion of not ranking sins. It is a difficult one for me.  I really don’t understand it at all.  Of course, in the end, everything depends on God and how he will see and judge the situation. But, to my mind, imperfect as it is,  it seems entirely  reasonable that there are lesser and greater sins, some deserving of more punishment than others. Some of the horrific crimes we have been reading about in the current news, with innocent people being killed and families lives ruined, seem to be to be very seriously wrong and, if we read Matthew 25:41 or 13:42, this would possibly be deserving of eternal punishment. However, there are some sins that are much lesser. For example, there is the Commandment: “Thou shalt not steal.” This is one of the ten Commandments. Suppose then that it is a beautiful sunny day, and you are out in a beautiful park, walking with your wife or girlfriend. And as you are walking you see a sign reading:”Do not pick the flowers.” However, the wonderful flowery smell hits your nostrils and you are overcome with joy and happiness at the sight and smell of the beautiful flowers. So you pick one and place it in the buttonhole of your wife or girlfriend. Now you have committed a sin against both the commandment Thou shalt not steal and against the civil law of the park rules.  But, I don’t see how anyone can deny that this sin of picking a flower is ranked much lower, and deserving of much less punishment, than that of a serial killer.
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« Reply #74 on: December 09, 2007, 12:05:18 AM »

Well, ranking of sins and dividing them up kind of puts a "not so bad: feel to it.  That's not the case.  Sin, no matter the "degree" we believe, all mar the soul, all stain the baptismal garment, and all need to be cleansed, because all sin leads to separation from the will of God.  A thief and a murderer don't seem much the same, but both do something to stain their souls, and in the end, both are forgiven if they wash themselves in the tears of true repentance, and fight to make sure the stain does not re appear.  It doesen't matter if it's a pebble or a boulder that causes you to fall.  Both are going to get you hurt.
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« Reply #75 on: December 09, 2007, 03:49:36 AM »

Is that what I am doing? You know, I don't know allot about that doctrine but I don't believe there is anything contrary to the Orthodox Catholic faith by what I know. It seems as a different expression of the same faith to me. Can you site an Orthodox synod that dogmatized that doctrine?

Yes, I agree. In regard to purgatory we only claim that it exists and that prayer for the dead is efficacious. As far as I know expiation of sin could be instantaneous in our concept of time in this world. Remember in the world to come time is meaningless.

Peace.

Since time is meaningless in the world to come, who cares if you get half-off your time in purgatory?
Oh, wait- because that would imply that purgatory is a place where you SPEND time, and may get incriments of time knocked off for good behaviour... what the Roman catholic Church USED to teach! Wink
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« Reply #76 on: December 09, 2007, 03:53:54 AM »

Since time is meaningless in the world to come, who cares if you get half-off your time in purgatory?

We care because we believe in the communion of Saints both here and beyond. Remember those undergoing expiation are part of that body.

Peace.
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« Reply #77 on: December 09, 2007, 04:02:12 AM »

Well, ranking of sins and dividing them up kind of puts a "not so bad: feel to it.  That's not the case.  Sin, no matter the "degree" we believe, all mar the soul, all stain the baptismal garment, and all need to be cleansed, because all sin leads to separation from the will of God.  A thief and a murderer don't seem much the same, but both do something to stain their souls, and in the end, both are forgiven if they wash themselves in the tears of true repentance, and fight to make sure the stain does not re appear.  It doesen't matter if it's a pebble or a boulder that causes you to fall.  Both are going to get you hurt.

That is true and that "not so bad feel" as you put it is possible for a malformed conscience. The scripture though definitely defines certain sins if unrepented of resulting in definite separation from God. The point is to avoid those, not lessen the effects of other sins which if also unrepented of will snow ball. There is also the opposite effect of scrupulosity that can steal the abundance of life the Lord grants us. There is a balanced view here and not one of denying the harm of any sin.

Peace.
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« Reply #78 on: December 09, 2007, 04:12:27 AM »

We care because we believe in the communion of Saints both here and beyond. Remember those undergoing expiation are part of that body.

Peace.

No- the idea that "time is meaningless" implies that one won't notice the difference between a day and a thousand days. Time doesn't exist. If time doesn't exist then purification is one single experience, with no concept of duration. What then does it matter- time not being of importence or being outside of time; the non-existant concept of time being reduced? That has nothing to do with the comunion of saints, it has to do with the concept of purification as a "place" or "state" having a duration of "time" than can be lessened, whether by the prayers of the Saints or God himself of anything else.
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« Reply #79 on: December 09, 2007, 12:22:05 PM »

No- the idea that "time is meaningless" implies that one won't notice the difference between a day and a thousand days. Time doesn't exist. If time doesn't exist then purification is one single experience, with no concept of duration. What then does it matter- time not being of importence or being outside of time; the non-existant concept of time being reduced? That has nothing to do with the comunion of saints, it has to do with the concept of purification as a "place" or "state" having a duration of "time" than can be lessened, whether by the prayers of the Saints or God himself of anything else.

It does have to do with the communion of saints. The "state" of expiation can receive from God the benefit of our prayers to God because God says so which the Church has always believed. This is why Mass was offered at gravesides and inscriptions on tombs in the catacombs request prayer for the dead.

Its not so far a stretch from intercession really if you think about it. You do believe in intercession don't you? You do pray for the dead too right? You just view whats going on after death as something different correct? Do you not pray for that intention just the same, even the deliverance of souls from hell where scripture says there is no return? If just because the concept of time is different do you stop praying for that intention? If you can believe people can be delivered from hell which is contrary to scripture then why would you have such a problem with the Catholic dogma of Purgatory?

Nothing is impossible for God, just as He can choose to heal a sick person in a instant He can deliver the justified who is completing sanctification by expiation in an instant should He also so choose. This should answer your questions as to where people go after they die.  Eschatology has already been dogmatically defined and bound and loosed.

Whats the moral of the story? Faith, Hope, Love and Prayer are important.

Peace.
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« Reply #80 on: December 09, 2007, 12:42:50 PM »

Very cute with your implications that I'm stupid.  About what I expect out of Latins.

Excuse me? Don't expect to be taken seriously if you make insulting comments like that. But then, you couldn't care less about what we "Latins" think, eh?
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« Reply #81 on: December 09, 2007, 12:52:25 PM »

You want your proof?  Learn Greek and Russian - cause most of the Orthodox theological writings in existence have not yet been translated.  You've been trying to convince us of Purgatory for centuries and you're hermeneutics and exegesis haven't amounted to much - in most Orthodox circles your methodology in coming up with the specific doctrine of Purgatory is considered more isigesis than exegesis.

Granted you EO have not accepted the doctrine (and I wouldn't expect it, since it was not clarified until after the Schism), but you do have to admit, at least, that much of the EO animus towards Purgatory has not been as much against the doctrine as defined but against much theological speculation on it and many popular depictions of it? The basic Purgatory as defined in the Catechism is not so sensational---even an Ulsterman like CS Lewis could believe it.
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« Reply #82 on: December 09, 2007, 01:21:25 PM »

Yes I know. I see the differences mostly as misconceptions.

Thanks. You know I went to the solemnity today and renewed my consecration to Mary on its 10 year anniversary and there wasn't even so much as the mention of Mary in the whole Mass. I am still scratching my head over that one. Just this diocese I guess.

Peace.

Wow, how did that happen? She is all over the place in the texts and prayers of the IC Mass.

Did you go to a Mass later in the afternoon, say, 4 or 5pm? If you that, that was a vigil Mass for today, the Second Sunday of Advent. The latest I've seen an IC Mass is noon.
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« Reply #83 on: December 09, 2007, 01:22:59 PM »

Granted you EO have not accepted the doctrine (and I wouldn't expect it, since it was not clarified until after the Schism), but you do have to admit, at least, that much of the EO animus towards Purgatory has not been as much against the doctrine as defined but against much theological speculation on it and many popular depictions of it? The basic Purgatory as defined in the Catechism is not so sensational---even an Ulsterman like CS Lewis could believe it.

That is true to a point, that much of the debate from our end has been directed at the extended ideas (whether misconceptions or not) that have grown off the root.  It is a fairly simple doctrine (which y'all must be given credit for - sometimes the RC Church has been a bit too overzealous in their definitions, which can lead to more problems that what were being combated in the first place).
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« Reply #84 on: December 09, 2007, 01:24:21 PM »

Wow, how did that happen? She is all over the place in the texts and prayers of the IC Mass.

Did you go to a Mass later in the afternoon, say, 4 or 5pm? If you that, that was a vigil Mass for today, the Second Sunday of Advent. The latest I've seen an IC Mass is noon.

Or they were following the Orthodox calendar which celebrates her conception today the 9th, which is 9 months - 1 day (near perfection).  Hers is parallel to the period for John the Baptist (9 months + 1 day - near perfection).
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« Reply #85 on: December 09, 2007, 01:27:38 PM »

Since time is meaningless in the world to come, who cares if you get half-off your time in purgatory?
Oh, wait- because that would imply that purgatory is a place where you SPEND time, and may get incriments of time knocked off for good behaviour... what the Roman catholic Church USED to teach! Wink

Wow, RP. Are you being facetious here? The idea of "time off" in Purgatory as a teaching of the Church is a myth. The "time" referred to how many days you would have to do penance on Earth for a certain sin (remember the lengthy penances of the primitive Church). I didn't think anybody here still believed that myth.
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« Reply #86 on: December 09, 2007, 02:47:56 PM »

Wow, RP. Are you being facetious here? The idea of "time off" in Purgatory as a teaching of the Church is a myth. The "time" referred to how many days you would have to do penance on Earth for a certain sin (remember the lengthy penances of the primitive Church). I didn't think anybody here still believed that myth.

No, I understand the issue of days perfectly well. I'm talking about an indulgence lessening punishment, or purgation, or cleansing or whatever... my cute way of describing it was time off... unless there's any other way to understand the lessening of one's "cleansing", a duration of time in the experience is what I assue is being remitted.
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« Reply #87 on: December 09, 2007, 02:53:52 PM »

Eschatology has already been dogmatically defined and bound and loosed.

Peace.

it's been bound and loosed? I don't get it.
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« Reply #88 on: December 09, 2007, 06:36:12 PM »

No, I understand the issue of days perfectly well. I'm talking about an indulgence lessening punishment, or purgation, or cleansing or whatever... my cute way of describing it was time off... unless there's any other way to understand the lessening of one's "cleansing", a duration of time in the experience is what I assue is being remitted.

It's not really about getting off scott-free, it's more a matter of graces being made available to them that assist with the purifying process, allowing them to more easily relinquish the attachments that keep them from being totally one with Christ and pure.
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« Reply #89 on: December 09, 2007, 08:20:13 PM »

Quote
There is a balanced view here and not one of denying the harm of any sin.

Agreed.  Both views serve their porpose.   However, It is the focus on one and the non recognition fo the other that becomes the problem.   An example of this is the focus on either the Crucifixion or the Resurrection and hardly mentioning the other.  They are meant to conicide with eachother, and not to be separated. 

Pazi 
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