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Author Topic: Indulgences, Temporal Punishment, Purgatory, etc  (Read 175373 times) Average Rating: 5
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Mickey
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« Reply #315 on: February 18, 2009, 02:02:55 PM »

Thus, I have twisted nothing but, rather, adhere to the scriptural teaching that God
1. Punishes us.
2. Its painful/not fun.[
3. That it is for my own good.
I am not sure what you have to base your arguements on but I have provided objective support for my view.

If you have decided to adhere to the picture of a punishing vengeful God, then there is nothing more I say to you.
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« Reply #316 on: February 18, 2009, 02:05:02 PM »

I'm not concerned with St. Antony's quote. I am concerned with the scriptures clearly and plainly states. I am still waiting for you to address that matter.

I have addressed it. Alex has addressed it also. If you do not accept it--so be it. St Antony the great explains it perfectly--much better than I ever could.
But you have not addressed. You have just said that you don't believe God punishes us over and over again. That is not addressing my point nor the evidence that I have provided. That is simply asserting your position again. Again, I have provided evidence (very solid evidence) from an objective source (the bible) that God punishes us, its not fun, and its for our own good. You have yet to refute that evidence so I must assume that this debate ends in favor of the Catholic position.

P.S. I am not  convinced that your idea that God does not punish us is even in keeping with the Eastern Orhtodox faith.
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« Reply #317 on: February 18, 2009, 02:06:24 PM »

Thus, I have twisted nothing but, rather, adhere to the scriptural teaching that God
1. Punishes us.
2. Its painful/not fun.[
3. That it is for my own good.
I am not sure what you have to base your arguements on but I have provided objective support for my view.

If you have decided to adhere to the picture of a punishing vengeful God, then there is nothing more I say to you.
Why not address the image of God painted in the Scripute: Merciful AND Just.
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« Reply #318 on: February 18, 2009, 02:10:10 PM »

Thus, I have twisted nothing but, rather, adhere to the scriptural teaching that God
1. Punishes us.
2. Its painful/not fun.[
3. That it is for my own good.
I am not sure what you have to base your arguements on but I have provided objective support for my view.

If you have decided to adhere to the picture of a punishing vengeful God, then there is nothing more I say to you.
Even God's punishment is an act of great MERCY because it trains us in righteousness, and keeps us from sin, so that we do not fall short of heaven. What a loving God indeed!!! I refer everyone back to the pictures that Luberti pasted in this thread.
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« Reply #319 on: February 18, 2009, 02:13:53 PM »

I'm not concerned with St. Antony's quote. I am concerned with the scriptures clearly and plainly states. I am still waiting for you to address that matter.

I have addressed it. Alex has addressed it also. If you do not accept it--so be it. St Antony the great explains it perfectly--much better than I ever could.
I just read your quote from St. Anthony.  It essentially says that God does not become angry as we understand the concept of anger, but it says nothing about the Divine punishment of which Papist is speaking.  You're attaching punishment to anger in a way that I don't see Papist doing, as if one who punishes does so because he MUST be angry.  The Bible does speak very clearly of Divine punishment, which Papist is correct to argue, but does the biblical statement that God punishes sinners automatically mean that he becomes angry in the human way that we know, the way St. Anthony says we should not attribute to God?
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« Reply #320 on: February 18, 2009, 02:14:08 PM »

You have just said that you don't believe God punishes us over and over again. That is not addressing my point nor the evidence that I have provided.

The final word belongs to St John, the Beloved Disciple, who knew Christ perhaps better than any of the other apostles. Before the fearful day of judgment, he declares, “we may have confidence,” not in our merits nor in punishing penances we may have endured, but in the love of the God whose very essence is Love. “There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear; for fear has to do with punishment….” The Way into the Kingdom of Heaven is not through punishment, through suffering imposed by a wrathful God whose justice outweighs His mercy. It is through love: the boundless, self-giving love God has for us, to which, in an attitude of ongoing repentance, we respond with love for Him and for one another (1 John 4:16-21).
http://www.oca.org/CHRIST-life-article.asp?SID=6&ID=111&MONTH=July&YEAR=2006



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« Reply #321 on: February 18, 2009, 02:17:59 PM »

In Orthodox thought God did not threaten Adam and Eve with punishment nor was He angered or offended by their sin; He was moved to compassion.[3] The expulsion from the Garden and from the Tree of Life was an act of love and not vengeance so that humanity would not “become immortal in sin” (Romanides, 2002, p. 32). Thus began the preparation for the Incarnation of the Son of God and the solution that alone could rectify the situation: the destruction of the enemies of humanity and God, death (I Corinthians 15:26, 56), sin, corruption and the devil (Romanides, 2002).     

http://www.stmaryorthodoxchurch.org/orthodoxy/articles/2004-hughes-sin.php


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« Reply #322 on: February 18, 2009, 02:21:36 PM »

The Roman idea of justice found prominence in Augustinian and later Western theology. The idea that Adam and Eve offended God’s infinite justice and honor made of death God’s method of retribution (Romanides, 2002). But this idea of justice deviates from Biblical thought. Kalomiris (1980) explains the meaning of justice in the original Greek of the New Testament:

The Greek word diakosuni ‘justice’, is a translation of the Hebrew word tsedaka. The word means ‘the divine energy which accomplishes man’s salvation.’ It is parallel and almost synonymous with the word hesed which means ‘mercy’, ‘compassion’, ‘love’, and to the word emeth which means ‘fidelity’, ‘truth’. This is entirely different from the juridical understanding of ‘justice’. (p. 31)
The juridical view of justice generates two problems for Augustine. One: how can one say that the attitude of the immutable God’s toward His creation changes from love to wrath? Two: how can God, who is good, be the author of such an evil as death (Romanides, 1992)? The only way to answer this is to say, as Augustine did to the young Bishop, Julian of Eclanum (d. 454), that God’s justice is inscrutable (Cahill, 1995, p. 65). Logically, then, justice provides proof of inherited guilt for Augustine, because since all humanity suffers the punishment of death and since God who is just cannot punish the innocent, then all must be guilty in Adam. Also, by similar reasoning, justice appears as a standard to which even God must adhere (Kalomiris, 1980). Can God change or be subject to any kind of standard or necessity? By contrast the Orthodox father, Basil the Great, attributes the change in attitude to humanity rather than to God (Migne, 1857-1866b). Because of the theological foundation laid by Augustine and taken up by his heirs, the conclusion seems unavoidable that a significant change occurs in the West making the wrath of God and not death the problem facing humanity (Romanides, 1992, p. 155-156)
http://www.stmaryorthodoxchurch.org/orthodoxy/articles/2004-hughes-sin.php

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« Reply #323 on: February 18, 2009, 02:23:35 PM »


I think you may have this backward. I am merely supporiting the clear and plain meaning of scripture. To do otherwise would be to twist it. Thus, I have twisted nothing but, rather, adhere to the scriptural teaching that God
1. Punishes us.
2. Its painful/not fun.[
3. That it is for my own good.
I am not sure what you have to base your arguements on but I have provided objective support for my view.

I don't think arguing whither God 'actively' Punishes, as you have stated, or that man without God suffers, as Mickey has stated, is the point of the matter. The fact is regardless if God Himself is the first or second cause, He wills either to be so or it would not be. This is ultimately a discussion of Justice (giving one his due) not how Justice is ultimately meted out.

As I've argued in my own posts I don't see this as simply as 'are we Justified or not'. I would argue that Christ's work on the Cross is more than debt relief. It is cure. If we are not cured what is our ultimate end? If we are unprofitable with what God has given us then what will happen? If we take the gifts of grace freely given and bury it, and remain unfruitful on that Last Day. What then?

Is there a Purgation for these souls? This is what I ponder and I am not satisfied simply reveling in my arguments of how efficacious our Sacraments are and whatnot. I want to be fruitful and I am not.
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« Reply #324 on: February 18, 2009, 02:25:36 PM »

The expulsion from the Garden and from the Tree of Life was an act of love and not vengeance so that humanity would not “become immortal in sin” (Romanides, 2002, p. 32).
Which is exactly what Papist is saying.  The expulsion from the Garden can be seen legitimately as a Divine punishment, yet we can see this punishment as borne out of a loving desire to correct us and not out of any desire for vengeance, as Papist has explained.  (I don't see Papist making a connection between punishment on the one side and the concepts of wrath and vengeance on the other, as you have done.)
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« Reply #325 on: February 18, 2009, 02:26:18 PM »


God does not inflict pain and wrath on us out of vengence and anger. God is not subject to the passions.

Do you even need to say this? Of course we agree with this. By using this as a retort, it makes it seem as if you think this is what we believe.

Of course, the fact that God is not subject to purely human anger and vengeance does not rule out pain or punishment.
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« Reply #326 on: February 18, 2009, 02:28:15 PM »


Do you even need to say this? Of course we agree with this. By using this as a retort, it makes it seem as if you think this is what we believe.

Of course, the fact that God is not subject to purely human anger and vengeance does not rule out pain or punishment.

This is the first time I have heard this from the RC side. So then, what is the pain and punsihment of which you speak?
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« Reply #327 on: February 18, 2009, 02:31:38 PM »


Oh yes, let's use violence to teach our children how to be good. Your words are sick, Papist.

Hmm, is the Holy Spirit also sick?

He that spareth the rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him correcteth him betimes.
Proverbs 13:24

Of course, it goes without saying that it is wrong to inflict serious injury or to perform the discipline out of anger instead of cool, loving correction.
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« Reply #328 on: February 18, 2009, 02:36:09 PM »

Luberti this is a great reference. Can you point me to the source? I have often heard that during this time period the Eastern Orthodox Church was much more similar to the Catholic Church.

Sorry about that. I forgot to include the link in my last post. If I were not on Moderated status, I would have gone right back and edited the post to add the links:

http://catholicity.elcore.net/ConfessionOfDositheus.html

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/creeds2.vi.ii.html
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« Reply #329 on: February 18, 2009, 02:40:35 PM »

More proof that you don't believe in the scriptures. "Spare the rod spoil the child" I think its sick that you don't take the initiative to provide real discipline for your children.

That is not from Scripture. It from a 1664 poem by Samuel Butler.

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« Reply #330 on: February 18, 2009, 02:55:48 PM »

Honestly I think that modern Orthodox apologists conflate God's Providence and God's Punishment. If we defined God's Providence it would equate very well with Orthodox sensibilities here. No one thinks that all God desires is to punish us. God clearly desires "all to be saved". Unfortunately we don't all seem to want to be saved. Adam and Eve were 'expelled' from Paradise and an Angel place to keep us out. Throughout the Sacred Texts these very 'overt' actions are committed by God and the Bodiless Hosts for a reason. How we ultimately wrap this up to rationalize for ourselves and our own sensibilities is ultimately the work of men and not God.

Modern Orthodoxy, and perhaps a case can be made for Greek Philosophers, that great pains were taken to interpret the Revelation which we have been given in a light that does the least violence to such high minded sensibilities. I think we should be careful though that we don't use this to create our own eisegesis which I fear at times Orthodoxy does. I believe the west has been truer to the exegesis of the Sacred Text without this layer of philosophy used as a lens for reinterpretation. Attempting not to be overly critical on this point I think we need to be careful in using such things.
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« Reply #331 on: February 18, 2009, 02:58:53 PM »

More proof that you don't believe in the scriptures. "Spare the rod spoil the child" I think its sick that you don't take the initiative to provide real discipline for your children.

That is not from Scripture. It from a 1664 poem by Samuel Butler.


But the poem is inspired by two Bible verses if I'm not mistaken.

Proverbs 13:24: He who spareth the rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him correcteth him betimes

Proverbs 23:13-14: Withhold not correction from a child: for if thou strike him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and deliver his soul from hell.
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« Reply #332 on: February 18, 2009, 03:02:24 PM »


I add this to lubeltri: as you maybe don't know because of your Catholicity, not all Councils of Orthodoxy are considered binding. The so-called Panorthodox Synod of Jerusalem (sometimes called of Bethlehem) was indeed never applied. Many proofs can be shown of this. For example we don't use the word transubstantiation for the Eucharistic mystery, yet this council used it. The doctrine you can see exposed there, as you can see, doesn't use words such as purgatory, of course. And as far as I know, only two councils held after Nicea II are considered binding (and sometimes - by some groups, I mean) even Ecumenical: the 4th and 5th Ecumenical Councils held in Constantinople.

I think that the true distance between our theologies is due to how you don't understand a need for SYNERGY. Saying that God punishes actively the sinners by a decision as a judge is wrong... But saying - as Ebor showed with Lewis' words - that it's the soul that asks for punishment, this is another question.

Yet, I don't think that imposing Purgatory as a dogma you MUST believe otherwise you'll be heretic, when even the Church fathers never found agreement on this topic, is just a way to divide rather then unite. Do you want REAL unity with us? Renounce you dogmas, and if you want keep them as a personal opinion.

Alex, I know that the Synod of Jerusalem is not seen as an infallible council by all Orthodox. I was just putting forth that many Orthodox, including in a council as important as the Synod of Jerusalem, speak in these terms.

In other words, it is not anathema to the Orthodox faith to believe this way.

-

As for your other statement, I myself tend towards Lewis's view (like you). I always liked this Lewis quote:

There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, in the end, 'Thy will be done.'

However, I don't think this rules out "punishment" from God---there is too much reference in Scripture and Tradition to this to rule it out. Punishment itself, the Catechism says, does not suppose an angry or vengeful God but comes from the nature of attachment to sin.

-

As for the dogma of Purgatory, that which Catholics must believe is not a great deal---Catholics are not required to believe it is a physical place, or that it involves literal fire. We must believe that a state of purification exists and that prayers, alms, etc. by those on Earth can have an efficacious effect on those undergoing this purification (implying that the process involves pain).

It was open-ended enough for most of the Orthodox prelates at the Council of Florence to accept it.


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« Reply #333 on: February 18, 2009, 03:03:53 PM »

More proof that you don't believe in the scriptures. "Spare the rod spoil the child" I think its sick that you don't take the initiative to provide real discipline for your children.

That is not from Scripture. It from a 1664 poem by Samuel Butler.


"Folly is bound up in the heart of a child,
     but the rod of discipline drives it far from him."

Proverbs 22:15

"Do not withhold discipline from a child;
     if you beat him with a rod, he will not die.
If you beat him with the rod
     you will save his life from Sheol."

Proverbs 23:13-14

"The rod and reproof give wisdom,
     but a child left to himself brings shame to his mother."

Proverbs 29:15

Maybe the exact phrase, "Spare the rod, spoil the child", is not in the Scriptures, but it certainly appears to be based on Scripture.
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« Reply #334 on: February 18, 2009, 03:31:48 PM »

Maybe the exact phrase, "Spare the rod, spoil the child", is not in the Scriptures, but it certainly appears to be based on Scripture.

That is what I said, Mr moderator. And the proverbs are not telling us to beat our children.
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« Reply #335 on: February 18, 2009, 03:33:58 PM »



But the poem is inspired by two Bible verses if I'm not mistaken.

Proverbs 13:24: He who spareth the rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him correcteth him betimes

Proverbs 23:13-14: Withhold not correction from a child: for if thou strike him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and deliver his soul from hell.

The exact wording is from a poem. The proverbs are not telling us to beat our children.
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« Reply #336 on: February 18, 2009, 03:37:44 PM »

I believe the west has been truer to the exegesis of the Sacred Text without this layer of philosophy used as a lens for reinterpretation. Attempting not to be overly critical on this point I think we need to be careful in using such things.

I believe the Latins, in their scholasticism and attachment to medieval mind sets---have been less true to the exegesis of the Sacred Text.
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« Reply #337 on: February 18, 2009, 03:40:44 PM »



But the poem is inspired by two Bible verses if I'm not mistaken.

Proverbs 13:24: He who spareth the rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him correcteth him betimes

Proverbs 23:13-14: Withhold not correction from a child: for if thou strike him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and deliver his soul from hell.

The exact wording is from a poem. The proverbs are not telling us to beat our children.

Who said beat the child? Spanking and beating are not the same. So what your saying in the proverbs give no indication that spanking may be necessary to disaplin a child? Do you think what we are getting is Mickey's personnel views on what the proverbs mean?

In anycase we should move the spanking debate over to the other thread. I don't want to derail this anymore.
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« Reply #338 on: February 18, 2009, 03:45:08 PM »

Spanking and beating are not the same.

Mama mia! What are you talking about?!?

The rod is used by the shepherd to guide the sheep.
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« Reply #339 on: February 18, 2009, 03:47:01 PM »

I believe the west has been truer to the exegesis of the Sacred Text without this layer of philosophy used as a lens for reinterpretation. Attempting not to be overly critical on this point I think we need to be careful in using such things.

I believe the Latins, in their scholasticism and attachment to medieval mind sets---have been less true to the exegesis of the Sacred Text.

Would you say that the Sacred Texts has an attachment to a Semitic Mindset and thus is in need of Greek Philosophic Lens to interpret it? Is there value it recognizing when the Sacred Text speaks plainly of wrath and punishment that maybe we shouldn't ignore it and explain it away? Is there any value in the normative interpretation of the Scriptures?
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« Reply #340 on: February 18, 2009, 03:55:00 PM »

Spanking and beating are not the same.

Mama mia! What are you talking about?!?

The rod is used by the shepherd to guide the sheep.

Are you for real?
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« Reply #341 on: February 18, 2009, 03:55:40 PM »

Would you say that the Sacred Texts has an attachment to a Semitic Mindset and thus is in need of Greek Philosophic Lens to interpret it? Is there value it recognizing when the Sacred Text speaks plainly of wrath and punishment that maybe we shouldn't ignore it and explain it away? Is there any value in the normative interpretation of the Scriptures?

All good questions Chris. I do not read the God of Scriptures as a wrathful and punishing God. I see only love and mercy. That is all I will ever see. I know that we suffer in this life but I am not convinced that we suffer in a middle state after repose.

I am weary of this thread. I have not been Orthodox very long and so I may be completely wrong. Who knows? I am the only Orthodox poster here defending what I feel to be the Orthodox postion of a God Who is all love and mercy against the medieval view of wrath and punsihment. Alex has taken a position similar to mine, but ironically I think he is still theoretically Latin Catholic. Otherwise, no other Orthodox posters are chiming in on this, so I may very well be completely wrong.

It is time for me to stop my participation on this thread.
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« Reply #342 on: February 18, 2009, 03:56:12 PM »

[Are you for real?

Funny. I was thinking the same of you.
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« Reply #343 on: February 18, 2009, 03:59:35 PM »

[Are you for real?

Funny. I was thinking the same of you.

Thats a big surprise!  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #344 on: February 18, 2009, 04:02:22 PM »

Would you say that the Sacred Texts has an attachment to a Semitic Mindset and thus is in need of Greek Philosophic Lens to interpret it? Is there value it recognizing when the Sacred Text speaks plainly of wrath and punishment that maybe we shouldn't ignore it and explain it away? Is there any value in the normative interpretation of the Scriptures?

All good questions Chris. I do not read the God of Scriptures as a wrathful and punishing God. I see only love and mercy. That is all I will ever see. I know that we suffer in this life but I am not convinced that we suffer in a middle state after repose.

I understand your points. Thanks for your contributions. I have appreciated them.

Quote
I am weary of this thread. I have not been Orthodox very long and so I may be completely wrong. Who knows? I am the only Orthodox poster here defending what I feel to be the Orthodox postion of a God Who is all love and mercy against the medieval view of wrath and punsihment. Alex has taken a position similar to mine, but ironically I think he is still theoretically Latin Catholic. Otherwise, no other Orthodox posters are chiming in on this, so I may very well be completely wrong.

I don't believe it must be this OR that but maybe this AND that. Rivers of Fire is an interesting philosophical interpretation of this dilemma.
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« Reply #345 on: February 18, 2009, 04:03:24 PM »

Thats a big surprise! 

Not really.  Grin


The true father loves and disciplines his child as God loves and disciplines His people. (cf. Hebrews 12:3-11)
He who spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is diligent to discipline him.

Folly is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of discipline drives it far from him.

Train up a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not depart from it. (Proverbs 13:24; 22:6,15; 23:13)
The love of the father for children is expressed in loving discipline without hypocrisy. The best teacher is one's own example.
Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger but bring them up with discipline and instruction in the Lord. (Ephesians 6:4)

Fathers, do not provoke your children, lest they become discouraged. (Colossians 3:21)
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« Reply #346 on: February 18, 2009, 04:12:09 PM »

My answer was sarcastic and it should not have been. Sorry about that!
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« Reply #347 on: February 18, 2009, 04:15:10 PM »

My answer was sarcastic and it should not have been. Sorry about that!

Likewise. God bless you.
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« Reply #348 on: February 18, 2009, 04:29:53 PM »

More proof that you don't believe in the scriptures. "Spare the rod spoil the child" I think its sick that you don't take the initiative to provide real discipline for your children.

That is not from Scripture. It from a 1664 poem by Samuel Butler.


It a paraphrase of the scripture that Luberti provided above. Look at his post above. He has the exact reference from proverbs.
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« Reply #349 on: February 18, 2009, 04:33:18 PM »

Would you say that the Sacred Texts has an attachment to a Semitic Mindset and thus is in need of Greek Philosophic Lens to interpret it? Is there value it recognizing when the Sacred Text speaks plainly of wrath and punishment that maybe we shouldn't ignore it and explain it away? Is there any value in the normative interpretation of the Scriptures?

All good questions Chris. I do not read the God of Scriptures as a wrathful and punishing God. I see only love and mercy. That is all I will ever see. I know that we suffer in this life but I am not convinced that we suffer in a middle state after repose.

I am weary of this thread. I have not been Orthodox very long and so I may be completely wrong. Who knows? I am the only Orthodox poster here defending what I feel to be the Orthodox postion of a God Who is all love and mercy against the medieval view of wrath and punsihment. Alex has taken a position similar to mine, but ironically I think he is still theoretically Latin Catholic. Otherwise, no other Orthodox posters are chiming in on this, so I may very well be completely wrong.

It is time for me to stop my participation on this thread.
And here in lies the problem. I don't think you re defending the Orthodox view. I respect the Orthodox Church enough to know that they would not deny what the scriptures plainly teach and, furthermore, would not deny that, as well as being merciful, God is just. So much so that he provides us with the mercy of temporal punishment in this life so that we avoid evil and seek holiness which means eternal life.
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« Reply #350 on: February 18, 2009, 04:36:14 PM »

It a paraphrase of the scripture that Luberti provided above.

It is from a poem.
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« Reply #351 on: February 18, 2009, 04:38:05 PM »

Hi to all!
First of all, I resume this topic in stating with no sort of doubt that there's no such thing as venial or mortal sins in Orthodoxy. Every sin is the same by nature: a corruption of the perfect image of God we received in Adam before the fall. Every illness injures our soul in a stronger or less strong way, but God hates "all" sin. God doesn't hate sinners... he hates sin because sin is the cause of our personal separation from Him.
Wait a minute.  You say that there is no such thing as mortal sin or venial sin. But in the next breath you say that every illness injures our soul in a stronger or lesser way?
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« Reply #352 on: February 18, 2009, 04:39:03 PM »

So much so that he provides us with the mercy of temporal punishment in this life so that we avoid evil and seek holiness which means eternal life.

I never denied suffering in this life. I just do not believe we are punished in purgatory.  And I do not believe Scripture tells us such a thing. So from my perspective, it is you who have it wrong. But again, I am wide open to correction.

It would be great if an Orthodox priest chimed in here.
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« Reply #353 on: February 18, 2009, 04:59:24 PM »

I don't think you re defending the Orthodox view.

As far as I know, the Orthodox Church does not accept the Roman Catholic doctrine of purgatory.

And with that post, I bid you all farewell. I have spent too much of my time on forums and I am leaving them behind. I have much to learn so I am going to immerse myself in prayer and study for a very long time. Lent is almost two weeks away (Julian calendar) and it is time to pray.

God bless everyone. And to all I have offended, I beg your forgiveness.

The most wretched of all sinners,
Mickey
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« Reply #354 on: February 18, 2009, 05:48:00 PM »

So much so that he provides us with the mercy of temporal punishment in this life so that we avoid evil and seek holiness which means eternal life.

I never denied suffering in this life. I just do not believe we are punished in purgatory.  And I do not believe Scripture tells us such a thing. So from my perspective, it is you who have it wrong. But again, I am wide open to correction.

It would be great if an Orthodox priest chimed in here.
I have not made a single point about purgatory on this thread. I am just addressing the fact that you do not recognize that God punishes.
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« Reply #355 on: February 18, 2009, 05:52:38 PM »

I don't think you re defending the Orthodox view.

As far as I know, the Orthodox Church does not accept the Roman Catholic doctrine of purgatory.

And with that post, I bid you all farewell. I have spent too much of my time on forums and I am leaving them behind. I have much to learn so I am going to immerse myself in prayer and study for a very long time. Lent is almost two weeks away (Julian calendar) and it is time to pray.

God bless everyone. And to all I have offended, I beg your forgiveness.

The most wretched of all sinners,
Mickey
I never said that they do support purgatory. But I would be shocked to find out that Eastern Orthodox Christians do not believe that God punishes us for our own good as the scriptures teach.
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« Reply #356 on: February 18, 2009, 06:13:49 PM »

Mickey,
God chastises us to correct us.
"As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent." (Revelations 3:19)

This is not to pay a debt for sin, but it is a medicine to correct and heal us.
Regards,
George



Papist,
God chastises us to correct us.
"As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent." (Revelations 3:19)

This is not to pay a debt for sin, but it is a medicine to correct and heal us.
Regards,
George
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« Reply #357 on: February 18, 2009, 06:50:47 PM »

Mickey,
God chastises us to correct us.
"As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent." (Revelations 3:19)

This is not to pay a debt for sin, but it is a medicine to correct and heal us.
Regards,
George



Papist,
God chastises us to correct us.
"As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent." (Revelations 3:19)

This is not to pay a debt for sin, but it is a medicine to correct and heal us.
Regards,
George

Wisdom, nuff said.
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« Reply #358 on: February 19, 2009, 12:10:52 AM »

Mickey,
God chastises us to correct us.
"As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent." (Revelations 3:19)

This is not to pay a debt for sin, but it is a medicine to correct and heal us.
Regards,
George



Papist,
God chastises us to correct us.
"As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent." (Revelations 3:19)

This is not to pay a debt for sin, but it is a medicine to correct and heal us.
Regards,
George
I agree that God punishes us to correct us. That is what I have been arguing throughout this thread.
However, I don't think that he only punishes us for correction. Sometimes it is for justice. I think the death of the liars in Act chapter five is evidence of this.
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« Reply #359 on: February 19, 2009, 09:54:52 AM »

Wow... sorry I came so late back to this thread. It's 14:36 in Italy and I've been at university, so finally I can tell again and again what I believe and confess. I'll be as sinthetic as possible... and also try to be clear.

1) I do believe that some "purification after death" occurs. Many Church fathers did, yet many others didn't. Believing in purgatory is thus unnecessary for salvation, once you still pray for the dead...

2) I believe that God allows suffering to correct us. In this life of course, but not in the life to come. I believe that in the afterlife the only chastisement is the eternal chastisement of Hell. I prefer to consider purification after death as a process of growth. Since no scriptural or patristic text prooves that the large majority of the Church fathers associated purgatory with a punishment to satisfy God's justice, then I think I'm not bound to believe it.

3) Dear Mickey, I'm more Orthodox then you can think. I always hated being RC at least since 15-16. Anyway I take no offence for what you said: I understand that I should be calmer, and still hope God help me changing my life. I'll do my best to reach the same calm and wisdom of the holy saints of Orthodoxy, although I'm inclined to lose control. Btw, I'll pray that this Lent might be another occasion for spiritual growth for both of us. We fought with zeal because we both believe the same thing, i.e. that the word punishment is somehow inadequate to reflect the essence of purification after death. I personally prefer "penance", "correction" and "theosis".

4) Quote from stanley123:
Quote
Wait a minute.  You say that there is no such thing as mortal sin or venial sin. But in the next breath you say that every illness injures our soul in a stronger or lesser way?
I say there are many levels, not just two. Not only in purgatory, but even in Hell. The rigid scholastic definition of "mortal sins" and "venial sins" seems to put sometimes a wall between them as if venial sins were so little that we should be justified to do them. "God will still forgive and purge us, after all". No, all sins separate us from God, and even a venial sin, when persistent and unconfessed, could lead us to Hell. I don't see that large difference... Only blasphemy against the Holy Spirit brings us directly to Hell. All other sins could or could not lead us to Hell. That's up to God's decision, anyway. I just find "unbearable" all that categorizing process typical of legalistic Western society, where I've unfortunately born.

In Christ,   Alex

PS: Pray for me, a sinner
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