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Author Topic: Indulgences, Temporal Punishment, Purgatory, etc  (Read 179304 times) Average Rating: 5
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« Reply #1575 on: April 27, 2010, 09:43:13 PM »

As a curio, I read somewhere that the upcoming UGCC catechism contains no references to purgatory or original sin.

Many of us have been quite keen to find out about this.   An omission would not simply be a casual omission.  It would be a positive statement.

The Byzantine Catholics on the forum who are contributing to this thread seem to have a non-Byzantine Roman Catholioc theology about this.  Maybe the new Catechism will assist them to understand their faith.
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« Reply #1576 on: April 27, 2010, 10:35:11 PM »


I first learned the phrase "the protestantization of Orthodoxy", from Orthodox clergy.  And you know it as well as I do and that I can say with surety.

Very good article I came across from the newly martyred priest Fr Daniel Sysoiev.  I thought you may like to see it since it certainly shows that the Orthodox are in no danger of being Protestantised.  But there are other dangers....



"Fr Daniel in the Lion’s Den: ‘Paris’ Theology and Neo-Renovationism"

Priest Daniel Sysoiev (1974-2009)

Translated from: http://sysoev2.narod.ru/parizh.htm

The following article was written over ten years ago by the recently martyred missionary, Priest Daniel Sysoiev. It deals with the Neo-Renovationism (new modernism) which crept into Russia in the 1990s from the West, where, as Renovationism (old modernism) but which had been developed to its ultimate form, it has been practiced for decades in France, England, Finland and the USA.

-oOo-

Is there anything whereof it may be said, See, this is new? It has been already of old time, which was before us (Ecclesiastes 1, 10).

These sad words from Solomon’s wisdom involuntarily come to mind when we chance to observe the polemics on the activities of the Neo-Renovationists. I have repeatedly had to deal with people suffering from the Renovationist heresy. We should note that most of the criticisms made about Fr George Kochetkov (1) and his faction, criticizing his ‘renewed Orthodoxy with a human face’, do not hit their target, since they are not aimed at the essence of this heresy.

The indignation of Orthodox public opinion is expressed either at the use of modern Russian in services, or else at non-communicants who are chased out of Church (2), or else at the exaggerated elitism and ecumenism in such communities. However, the ‘Parisian’ background of this phenomenon, in other words, the influence of the ‘Paris School of Theology’, goes virtually unnoticed. For example, at the well-known 1994 conference, ‘The Unity of the  Church’, representatives of St Tikhon’s Theological Institute tried hard to dissociate the teachings of the ideology of Kochetkov from the teachings of Schmemann and Afanasiev, who were the pillars of ‘Orthodox’ modernism. Fr George Kochetkov was granted the ‘honor’ of creating his own doctrine, thus fueling his claims to the role of self-styled prophet. All this recalls recent history, when at the dawn of perestroika, Stalin was condemned as an apostate from the heritage of Lenin and the
 ideals of Communism.

Indeed, in some small details Russian Neo-Renovationist ideas and practices do differ from the nostrums prescribed by the ‘Paris School of Theology’. However, this is only the consequence of human imperfection, which has not (to our  good fortune!) led to the implementation of these ideas in all their glory. However, at the heart of modernism, both in Russia and in the West, is one and the same thing - the rejection of Patristic tradition in its entirety. As a result, we see the rejection of the contemporary structure of the Church, either because it is ‘obsolete’, or else because it has ‘departed from its apostolic origins’. By their fruits, ye shall know them. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? So every good tree bringeth forth good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit; neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit (Matt. 7, 16-18). If we use this criterion of the Saviour, we
 must reject all attempts to justify the ‘Parisians’, because the fruits of ecclesiastical modernism are here for all to see.

My experience with Kochetkov’s followers (both former and current) shows that there is little room for the Christianity of the Fathers in their minds. Frs A. Schmemann, N. Afanasiev and Alexander Men (3), and, of course, ‘the great catechist, prophet, and teacher’ Fr G. Kochetkov, have taken the place of the divine wisdom of the Fathers of the Church. This movement has its own dogmas, from which they derive their own liturgical practices and peculiar moral concepts, notions that are very far from Orthodoxy.

Here are some examples. Their custom of driving non-communicants out of the Church goes back to the idea of the Eucharist articulated by Fr A. Schmemann (see his book, The Eucharist: Sacrament of the Kingdom), which has its dogmatic basis in the Protestant doctrine of the universal priesthood of the laity. Consequently, he teaches that the laity con-celebrates with the priest, who only presides and does not celebrate the sacrament. Of course, with this understanding of the Eucharist, there is no place for non-communicants at the liturgy, lust like the celebrant priest who must always take communion at the Liturgy in the Orthodox Church. However, if you follow this view, it is not clear why the Apostle Paul calls only the apostles stewards of the mysteries of God (1 Corinthians 4, 1) and not the whole Church. When Christ instituted the Sacrament of His Body and Blood, He said the words, Do this in remembrance of me (Lk. 22, 19), only to the twelve, not to
 everyone. It is neither the priest, nor the people who have priestly authority in themselves (4), it is the Lord Jesus Christ Who performs all the sacraments through His apostles and their successors, the bishops and their priests, who are not creators of grace but distributors of grace.

Therefore, every priest reads the following at the Liturgy, ‘Vouchsafe that I, by the power of Thy Holy Spirit and vested with the grace of the priesthood, may stand before Thy holy Table and celebrate the mystery of Thy holy and most pure Body and Thy precious Blood, for Thou art He Who Offers and He Who is Offered, He Who receives and He Who is given out, O Christ our God’.  (Prayer at the Cherubic Hymn). Laypeople do not have the grace of the priesthood and therefore cannot con-celebrate with the priest. ‘The royal priesthood’ (1 Peter 2, 9) of the laity means that they must, present (their) bodies as a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is (their) reasonable service (Romans 12, 1), not that they must con-celebrate with the bishop or the priest. Therefore, the rank of penitent existed in the Church, they were those who stood together with the faithful and were not dismissed along with the catechumens, but did not take
 communion. St Gregory the Wonderworker (3rd century) speaks of this practice in his 12th canon.

Another example of modernist theology is the doctrine of Fr. N. Afanasiev that the power and grace of the priesthood and the episcopate are identical (see his book, The Church of the Holy Spirit). Orthodox often wondered: ‘Why did Fr George Kochetkov not obey his Patriarch? (1) Why did he and members of his community subtly judge His Holiness, deciding in what he was right and in what he was wrong? How can Kochetkov’s followers set up parallel Orthodox parishes across the country?’ The answer is simple. Renovationists consider themselves to be bishops. For them, the Patriarch is only a colleague, and even then ‘uncatechised’.

This is the very opinion of Fr N. Afanasiev’s (borrowed from Protestant pseudo-intellectuals) which was rejected by the famous 19th century Church historian, Professor V. Bolotov: ‘Dogmatically speaking, the episcopal rank precedes the rank of priest and therefore cannot historically be derived from it. Any historical understanding of the priesthood of the early Church, stating that bishops were only priests in the strict sense of the word, must be seen as disagreeing with the basic dogmatic understanding of the Universal Church’ (Lectures on the History of the Early Church, Moscow, 1994, Vol. 2. p. 486). The most fundamental concept for Renovationists is the ‘community’, by the way, this notion is very reminiscent of the totalitarian sect (5) and developed out of the opinion of Fr N. Afanasiev that such concepts and phenomena as the Universal Church did not exist in the first millennium of the Church. He taught that the Church was just a
 self-sufficient Eucharistic assembly which therefore needed no contact with other Churches (6).

It is amazing how someone who teaches this heresy can be regarded as an Orthodox priest, if at each Liturgy he testifies, ‘I believe … in the Catholic Church’. This false doctrine is untrue even historically (7). The Apostle Paul called the Church the Body of Christ, the fullness of all in all (Ephesians 1, 23). To the Christians at Corinth, he writes about eucharistic communion, there is One Bread, and we many are one body, for we all partake of the one bread (1 Corinthians 10, 17). At that time the Apostle Paul was himself in Ephesus. If we fail to recognize the existence of the Universal Church at that time, both in theory and in practice, this text is inexplicable.

Many Renovationist customs become explicable only in their ‘Parisian’ context. The denial by the latter of sacramentality in the Church before St Constantine leads them to attempt to expunge sacramentality from the services as ‘Non-Apostolic’ accretions (Cool. The result is the use of the Russian (or rather, secular) language in worship, the abolition of the Hours (Fr A. Schmemann believed that the theology of time has been lost and that therefore it made no sense to read the Hours) and the stress on the uselessness of the iconostasis (9). We could cite many more examples.

For all these reasons, we are convinced that Orthodox theology must not only judge contemporary Renovationism, but also, more importantly, expose its origins. Otherwise, if we condemn only Fr G. Kochetkov and crude Renovationists, we run the risk of succumbing to the same thing, but only in a different and more attractive package (10). One example has now shone forth on our horizon, a new ‘theological luminary’ from the Department of External Relations, Igumen Hilarion Alfeyev (11), who (referring to Western authorities) preaches heresies condemned by the Universal Councils, such as the doctrine of general salvation (apokatastasis) (12), rejected by the Fifth Universal Council and resurrected by Archpriest S. Bulgakov and other ‘Parisians’, and dares to attribute Nestorian texts to a great saint (13).

In conclusion, we note that any attempt to justify the activities of the ‘Paris School’ must first explain why their ideas generate such monstrous fantasies (incidentally, these notions do not arise in the doctrine of V. N. Lossky (he also lived in  Paris)). In addition, they must also disprove the already quoted words of Christ, A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit (Matt. 7, 18).

However, it would be better if the followers of the ‘Parisians’ ceased to use  their strange doctrines to trouble the souls of neophytes.

Translator’s Notes:

1.In the 1990s, when this article was written, Fr George Kochetkov, founder of ‘St Philaret's Orthodox Christian Institute’, was the leader of the Neo-Renovationists in Moscow and was hitting the headlines to the scandal of Orthodox. Having attracted some unChurched and still secular-minded neophytes, he was at one point suspended by Patriarch Alexis II and only afterwards toned down his excesses. Of all the priests in the Russian Church he was the only one invited by the former Bishop Basil (Osborne) to serve in the old Sourozh Diocese in London.

2.The custom of hounding non-communicants out of the Church began among Orthodox modernists in the West, where it still exists in a number of modernist parishes. Some inexperienced  neophytes are actually scandalised when some do not take communion!

5.In several liturgical translations published by the Western Orthodox modernists, the word ‘choir’ was long ago replaced by ‘the people’, in obedience to their Protestant mindset. Fr Daniel is absolutely right in calling such groups ‘totalitarian’. There is nothing so intolerant as liberalism – that intolerance is why, for example, non-communicants - and others - are openly and rudely expelled from their churches.



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« Reply #1577 on: April 28, 2010, 07:12:31 AM »

Indulgences have a clear cut formal and conciliar teaching.  The minutia of purgatory do not.


Could you please reference the official doctrinal teaching that Popes are permitted by Christ to make use of His treasury of merits and out of them they create and award indulgences to people who fulfil certain conditions stipulated by the Pope.     If there is no proof that Pope can use the treasury of merits then the doctrine of indulgences is fraudulent.

Is this a teaching guaranteed as infallible so that the Catholic faithful may believe it as inerrant and divinely revealed truth?  Where is the guarantee officially stated?

Quote
This means that the Popes who believe they have access to the merits of Christ and have the authority to allot them in the form of indulgences may indeed be delusional as you say.

See my original note where I listed the two formal sources.

Could you cite the specific reference/s to the Pope's ability to control and allocate the merits of Christ.  The entire doctrine of indulgences hinges on this.

I suppose I could if I had time to track the decretal down on line in English or went to the local research library and searched there or in ILL or maybe comb through the Vatican library on-line.

But I gave you texts here which you continue to ignore.  You reject the teaching outright,  so I am not inclined to go that extra mile here even if I did have the time. 

Since I am not a self appointed apologist, I don't really have that ingrained need to "win" a debate.

M.
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« Reply #1578 on: April 28, 2010, 08:51:27 AM »

Are the fires of purgation literal fire as we know it...Most likely not.

How do you know this?
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« Reply #1579 on: April 28, 2010, 08:54:26 AM »

As a curio, I read somewhere that the upcoming UGCC catechism contains no references to purgatory or original sin.

This would seemingly be in line with the Treaty of Brest, Article 5:

5. We shall not debate about purgatory, but we entrust ourselves to the teaching of the Holy Church.

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« Reply #1580 on: April 28, 2010, 09:22:55 AM »

Are the fires of purgation literal fire as we know it...Most likely not.

How do you know this?

There is no mention of literal fire in anything but the devotional literature and in theoria.  There's no formal mention made of literal fire or of real fire in the formal teaching. 

There is mention made of real fire with reference to its presence in Scripture and it is in the Catholic tradition of reading scripture that the distinction is drawn between "real" and "literal"

And that is how I have been taught.  So I pass it along as I am able.

M.
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« Reply #1581 on: April 28, 2010, 09:25:52 AM »

As a curio, I read somewhere that the upcoming UGCC catechism contains no references to purgatory or original sin.

Many of us have been quite keen to find out about this.   An omission would not simply be a casual omission.  It would be a positive statement.

The Byzantine Catholics on the forum who are contributing to this thread seem to have a non-Byzantine Roman Catholioc theology about this.  Maybe the new Catechism will assist them to understand their faith.

Oh never fear, Father.  I am happy to switch to teaching about Toll Houses.

Just as long as I pray for the souls of the departed and know that none but pure souls stand before God, I think I'll be fine.

I don't think I'll pick up the neo-heresy concerning universal salvation however.

M.
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« Reply #1582 on: April 28, 2010, 09:27:59 AM »


I first learned the phrase "the protestantization of Orthodoxy", from Orthodox clergy.  And you know it as well as I do and that I can say with surety.

Very good article I came across from the newly martyred priest Fr Daniel Sysoiev.  I thought you may like to see it since it certainly shows that the Orthodox are in no danger of being Protestantised.  But there are other dangers....


 Tongue  This article proves nothing really.  Its a commentary on a particular place in time. 

You do have a very interesting argumentation style.  It is so very flexible.

M.
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« Reply #1583 on: April 28, 2010, 09:55:55 AM »

There is no mention of literal fire in anything but the devotional literature and in theoria.  There's no formal mention made of literal fire or of real fire in the formal teaching. 

What about Indulgentium Doctrina?

"It is a divinely revealed truth that sins bring punishments inflicted by God's sanctity and justice. These must be expiated either on this earth through the sorrows, miseries and calamities of this life and above all through death, or else in the life beyond through fire and torments or purifying punishments..."

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« Reply #1584 on: April 28, 2010, 10:08:11 AM »

There is no mention of literal fire in anything but the devotional literature and in theoria.  There's no formal mention made of literal fire or of real fire in the formal teaching. 

What about Indulgentium Doctrina?

"It is a divinely revealed truth that sins bring punishments inflicted by God's sanctity and justice. These must be expiated either on this earth through the sorrows, miseries and calamities of this life and above all through death, or else in the life beyond through fire and torments or purifying punishments..."

What about it?  You can either read it through the "eyes" of the Church's self-understanding which I have given you, or you can do what you wish with it.

Mary
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« Reply #1585 on: April 28, 2010, 10:10:21 AM »

There is no mention of literal fire in anything but the devotional literature and in theoria.  There's no formal mention made of literal fire or of real fire in the formal teaching. 

What about Indulgentium Doctrina?

"It is a divinely revealed truth that sins bring punishments inflicted by God's sanctity and justice. These must be expiated either on this earth through the sorrows, miseries and calamities of this life and above all through death, or else in the life beyond through fire and torments or purifying punishments..."

What about it?  You can either read it through the "eyes" of the Church's self-understanding which I have given you, or you can do what you wish with it.

Mary
exactly
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« Reply #1586 on: April 28, 2010, 10:14:58 AM »

What about it?

You said:  "There's no formal mention made of literal fire or of real fire in the formal teaching".  

But there is formal mention. You are taking me in circles!  Huh

PS--What is the Church's "self-understanding" on this issue? And where does it originate?

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« Reply #1587 on: April 28, 2010, 10:19:31 AM »



PS--What is the Church's "self-understanding" on this issue? And where does it originate?


The way the Church understands her own teaching. It originates with the Church and the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
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« Reply #1588 on: April 28, 2010, 10:33:45 AM »

The way the Church understands her own teaching.

 Huh
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« Reply #1589 on: April 28, 2010, 10:55:10 AM »

There is no mention of literal fire in anything but the devotional literature and in theoria.  There's no formal mention made of literal fire or of real fire in the formal teaching. 

Quote from: mickey
What about Indulgentium Doctrina?

"It is a divinely revealed truth that sins bring punishments inflicted by God's sanctity and justice. These must be expiated either on this earth through the sorrows, miseries and calamities of this life and above all through death, or else in the life beyond through fire and torments or purifying punishments..."

Quote from: elijahmaria
What about it?  You can either read it through the "eyes" of the Church's self-understanding which I have given you, or you can do what you wish with it.

Mary, I hate to pull you up but you truly have to think about being more responsible in what you write so that the traditional teaching of the Roman Catholic Church is presented in a spirit of fidelity to your Church's great Popes and Doctors of the Church.

To press the point home, let me represent this message which does indeed give the teaching through the "eyes" of the Church.

I am sure that all the Catholics on this Forum who contend so well for their faith are aware of the Jesuit priest Fr Hardon (recently deceased and already on track for beatification.)  Fr Hardon has been one of the pre-eminent apologists of the Catholic Faith over the last 40 years.  His works are everywhere, on EWTN, etc., etc.  Fr Hardon served as a consultant for the drafting of the Catechism of the Catholic Church promulgated by Pope John Paul II in 1992.

Mary, he flatly contradicts what you are saying....

"Writers in the Latin tradition are quite unanimous that the fire of purgatory is real and not metaphorical. They argue from the common teaching of the Latin Fathers, of some Greek Fathers, and of certain papal statements like that of Pope Innocent IV, who spoke of “a transitory fire” (DB 456)."

"The Doctrine of Purgatory"
by Fr. John A. Hardon, S.J.
http://www.therealpresence.org/archives/Eschatology/Eschatology_006.htm
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« Reply #1590 on: April 28, 2010, 11:01:24 AM »


There is no mention of literal fire in anything but the devotional literature and in theoria.  There's no formal mention made of literal fire or of real fire in the formal teaching. 

So it should not be difficult to prove your statement by offering the formal teaching that the fires are metaphorical, and not real and not literal?

Quote from: elijahmaria

There is mention made of real fire with reference to its presence in Scripture and it is in the Catholic tradition of reading scripture that the distinction is drawn between "real" and "literal"

Again, it should not be difficult for you to reference for us the formal teaching on the distinction between "real" and "literal" fire?
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« Reply #1591 on: April 28, 2010, 11:10:51 AM »

Wait... why does this thread have so many replies? Huh
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« Reply #1592 on: April 28, 2010, 11:21:30 AM »



PS--What is the Church's "self-understanding" on this issue? And where does it originate?


The way the Church understands her own teaching. It originates with the Church and the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Well, then, by this definition, you are saying the Orthodox Church is not part of the Body of Christ?  After all, we do not understand the Teaching of the Church the way you do, and we do not believe this teaching emanates from the Holy Spirit.
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« Reply #1593 on: April 28, 2010, 11:22:07 AM »


Mary, he flatly contradicts what you are saying....

"Writers in the Latin tradition are quite unanimous that the fire of purgatory is real and not metaphorical. They argue from the common teaching of the Latin Fathers, of some Greek Fathers, and of certain papal statements like that of Pope Innocent IV, who spoke of “a transitory fire” (DB 456)."

"The Doctrine of Purgatory"
by Fr. John A. Hardon, S.J.
http://www.therealpresence.org/archives/Eschatology/Eschatology_006.htm


Real...not literal.  

Real is not always literal.
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« Reply #1594 on: April 28, 2010, 11:24:29 AM »


There is no mention of literal fire in anything but the devotional literature and in theoria.  There's no formal mention made of literal fire or of real fire in the formal teaching. 

So it should not be difficult to prove your statement by offering the formal teaching that the fires are metaphorical, and not real and not literal?

Quote from: elijahmaria

There is mention made of real fire with reference to its presence in Scripture and it is in the Catholic tradition of reading scripture that the distinction is drawn between "real" and "literal"

Again, it should not be difficult for you to reference for us the formal teaching on the distinction between "real" and "literal" fire?

LOL....I can't do that in the conciliar teaching.  Cause "fire" is not part of the teaching, nor is place.  You are a real treat sometimes, Father.

G'won now!!   Grin

Mary
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« Reply #1595 on: April 28, 2010, 11:25:48 AM »

Wait... why does this thread have so many replies? Huh

Because people find this topic interesting, I guess  Grin
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« Reply #1596 on: April 28, 2010, 11:29:23 AM »

Wait... why does this thread have so many replies? Huh

Because people find this topic interesting, I guess  Grin

 Never say die!!, Father... angel

M.

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« Reply #1597 on: April 28, 2010, 11:31:41 AM »

Wait... why does this thread have so many replies? Huh

Because people find this topic interesting, I guess  Grin

But everyone knows that its heresy... Don't we?
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« Reply #1598 on: April 28, 2010, 11:33:46 AM »


I don't think I'll pick up the neo-heresy concerning universal salvation however.


Is it not the Catholic Church's teaching that you are not obliged to say that anybody is in Hell?

Who was the Catholic mystic to whom Christ gave a vision of Hell and it was empty? 

PS: My own attitude to universal salvation summed up in my signature below.  I wouldn't be at all surprised if it were an admissible Catholic belief?

From Julian of Norwich, a 13th century mystic.
This is what Jesus revealed to her in His 13th revelation:


"Jesus, who in this vision informed me of all that I needed to know, answered with this assurance:
“Sin is befitting, but all shall be well, and all shall be well, and all manner of things shall be well.”
 
"It appears to me that there is a deed that the Holy Trinity shall do on the last day, and when
that deed shall be done and how it shall be done is unknown to all creatures under Christ, and shall
be until it has been done.--This is the great deed ordained by our Lord God from eternity, treasured
up and hidden in his blessed breast, only known to himself, and by this deed he shall make all things well;
for just as the Holy Trinity made all things from nothing, so the Holy Trinity shall make all well that is not well.

"And I wondered greatly at this revelation, and considered our faith, wondering as follows:
our faith is grounded in God’s word, and it is part of our faith that we should believe that God’s word
will be kept in all things; and one point of our faith is that many shall be damned,--And given all this,
I thought it impossible that all manner of things should be well, as our Lord revealed at this time.
And I received no other answer in showing from our Lord God but this: “What is impossible to you
is not impossible to me. I shall keep my word in all things and I shall make all things well."
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« Reply #1599 on: April 28, 2010, 11:36:55 AM »

Wait... why does this thread have so many replies? Huh

Because people find this topic interesting, I guess  Grin

But everyone knows that its heresy... Don't we?

This is a discussion forum. So it makes sense we would have lots of discussion going on.  Cool

Perhaps you'd like to take the time to read some of the replies and get an understanding of what exactly people are discussing. This is a complex topic to discuss, with many nuances.  In addition, many times people only have a superficial idea of what Roman Catholics actually believe, so there is some need to allow our Roman Catholic guests to post correctives to misconceptions about their beliefs so that Orthodox responses can be accurate and on-target.
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« Reply #1600 on: April 28, 2010, 11:38:42 AM »

Wait... why does this thread have so many replies? Huh
Catholics don't go down without a fight, and good for them! 
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« Reply #1601 on: April 28, 2010, 12:12:32 PM »

This is a bit off topic,

But just to let you guys know, this particular heresy has been swimming around, even in the Orthodox waters.

 Bishop Hilarion is telling us that St Issac of Syria says that, 'Gehenna is temporary' and he also said the st isaac said that, 'To say that God would eternally punish sinners is blasphemous'

But the thing about it is, is that didn't Christ himself say :

Matt 25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

So is Bishop Hilarion saying that Christ is blasphemous? Can it be that Christ did not want us to believe His own words? ...Impossible, eternity is eternity, even if there is 'purgatory'.

One minute in eternity is as the sands of the sea.



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« Reply #1602 on: April 28, 2010, 12:14:52 PM »

So does that mean that I can take the mark of the beast and still go to heaven?

Christ does not say so

Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
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« Reply #1603 on: April 28, 2010, 12:15:04 PM »


I don't think I'll pick up the neo-heresy concerning universal salvation however.


Is it not the Catholic Church's teaching that you are not obliged to say that anybody is in Hell?

Who was the Catholic mystic to whom Christ gave a vision of Hell and it was empty? 

PS: My own attitude to universal salvation summed up in my signature below.  I wouldn't be at all surprised if it were an admissible Catholic belief?

From Julian of Norwich, a 13th century mystic.
This is what Jesus revealed to her in His 13th revelation:


"Jesus, who in this vision informed me of all that I needed to know, answered with this assurance:
“Sin is befitting, but all shall be well, and all shall be well, and all manner of things shall be well.”
 
"It appears to me that there is a deed that the Holy Trinity shall do on the last day, and when
that deed shall be done and how it shall be done is unknown to all creatures under Christ, and shall
be until it has been done.--This is the great deed ordained by our Lord God from eternity, treasured
up and hidden in his blessed breast, only known to himself, and by this deed he shall make all things well;
for just as the Holy Trinity made all things from nothing, so the Holy Trinity shall make all well that is not well.

"And I wondered greatly at this revelation, and considered our faith, wondering as follows:
our faith is grounded in God’s word, and it is part of our faith that we should believe that God’s word
will be kept in all things; and one point of our faith is that many shall be damned,--And given all this,
I thought it impossible that all manner of things should be well, as our Lord revealed at this time.
And I received no other answer in showing from our Lord God but this: “What is impossible to you
is not impossible to me. I shall keep my word in all things and I shall make all things well."

Do you have any information from any EO councils that support the idea of universal salvation?
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« Reply #1604 on: April 28, 2010, 12:19:43 PM »


There is no mention of literal fire in anything but the devotional literature and in theoria.  There's no formal mention made of literal fire or of real fire in the formal teaching. 

So it should not be difficult to prove your statement by offering the formal teaching that the fires are metaphorical, and not real and not literal?

Quote from: elijahmaria

There is mention made of real fire with reference to its presence in Scripture and it is in the Catholic tradition of reading scripture that the distinction is drawn between "real" and "literal"

Again, it should not be difficult for you to reference for us the formal teaching on the distinction between "real" and "literal" fire?

LOL....I can't do that in the conciliar teaching.  Cause "fire" is not part of the teaching, nor is place.  You are a real treat sometimes, Father.



Dear Mary,

I found this on the Catholic Encyclopedia:

At the Council of Florence, Bessarion argued against the existence of real purgatorial fire, and the Greeks were assured that the Roman Church had never issued any dogmatic decree on this subject. In the West the belief in the existence of real fire is common. Augustine (Enarration on Psalm 37, no. 3) speaks of the pain which purgatorial fire causes as more severe than anything a man can suffer in this life, "gravior erit ignis quam quidquid potest homo pati in hac vita" (P.L., col. 397). Gregory the Great speaks of those who after this life "will expiate their faults by purgatorial flames," and he adds "that the pain be more intolerable than any one can suffer in this life" (Ps. 3 poenit., n. 1). Following in the footsteps of Gregory, St. Thomas teaches (IV, dist. xxi, q. i, a.1) that besides the separation of the soul from the sight of God, there is the other punishment from fire. "Una poena damni, in quantum scilicet retardantur a divina visione; alia sensus secundum quod ab igne punientur", and St. Bonaventure not only agrees with St. Thomas but adds (IV, dist. xx, p.1, a.1, q. ii) that this punishment by fire is more severe than any punishment which comes to men in this life; "Gravior est omni temporali poena. quam modo sustinet anima carni conjuncta". How this fire affects the souls of the departed the Doctors do not know, and in such matters it is well to heed the warning of the Council of Trent when it commands the bishops "to exclude from their preaching difficult and subtle questions which tend not to edification', and from the discussion of which there is no increase either in piety or devotion" (Sess. XXV, "De Purgatorio").

Perhaps there is another problem, and that is differentiating between when a Pope speaks as a matter of doctrine versus when he speaks merely out of personal opinion.  In terms of the Orthodox, since no one person has the status of authoritatively speaking for the Church (we have saints that come close, such as St. John Chrysostom, but I have read Orthodox take issue with this or that thing he said and not be accused of departing from the Church's teaching), then it is much easier for us to dismiss this person or that saint as being 'out on a limb.'  In the West, since the Pope holds the position of supreme authority when it comes to the determination of doctrinal statements, it is assumed that every time a Pope speaks, he is speaking authoritatively on the matter of which he speaks.

This impression was reinforced by a pronouncement regarding 'infallibility' of the Pope's pronouncements, though I have heard that it has been variously attenuated and not even used in recent memory (unless I am mistaken, which is entirely possible in this matter).

The Council of Trent proclaimed "difficult and subtle questions" as Purgatory ought not be discussed (as did the Treaty of Brest), but they certainly are taught as the CCC demonstrates.  To me, it appears the Magisterium of the RCC is not always very comfortable with this topic, given that it has caused them a great deal of controversy and that they are willing to unify with Orthodox who reject the teachings regarding temporal punishment, yet equally insist that such teachings are obligatory for all Roman Catholics.

So, Mary, as I have said before, you can't be too hard on us for not agreeing with you on this.  It is quite difficult.



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« Reply #1605 on: April 28, 2010, 12:59:28 PM »


I don't think I'll pick up the neo-heresy concerning universal salvation however.


Is it not the Catholic Church's teaching that you are not obliged to say that anybody is in Hell?

Who was the Catholic mystic to whom Christ gave a vision of Hell and it was empty? 

PS: My own attitude to universal salvation summed up in my signature below.  I wouldn't be at all surprised if it were an admissible Catholic belief?

From Julian of Norwich, a 13th century mystic.
This is what Jesus revealed to her in His 13th revelation:


"Jesus, who in this vision informed me of all that I needed to know, answered with this assurance:
“Sin is befitting, but all shall be well, and all shall be well, and all manner of things shall be well.”
 
"It appears to me that there is a deed that the Holy Trinity shall do on the last day, and when
that deed shall be done and how it shall be done is unknown to all creatures under Christ, and shall
be until it has been done.--This is the great deed ordained by our Lord God from eternity, treasured
up and hidden in his blessed breast, only known to himself, and by this deed he shall make all things well;
for just as the Holy Trinity made all things from nothing, so the Holy Trinity shall make all well that is not well.

"And I wondered greatly at this revelation, and considered our faith, wondering as follows:
our faith is grounded in God’s word, and it is part of our faith that we should believe that God’s word
will be kept in all things; and one point of our faith is that many shall be damned,--And given all this,
I thought it impossible that all manner of things should be well, as our Lord revealed at this time.
And I received no other answer in showing from our Lord God but this: “What is impossible to you
is not impossible to me. I shall keep my word in all things and I shall make all things well."

Do you have any information from any EO councils that support the idea of universal salvation?
Christ is Risen!

It is a common mistake by Catholics who are obliged, it seems, only by such teachings as have the stamp of council or papal approbation (the rest falling into a dubious category of popular belief only) to assume that the Orthodox faith is also so limited.

But we live not only by "official statements" although they are vastly important mainly in the area of trinitarian and christological theology, but by the fulness of our Tradition.  If we were limited to conciliar statements we could deny the presence of Christ in the Eucharist.  We could deny the Dormition and bodily Assumption of the Mother of God... and quite a bundle of other things which are integral to the Orthodox faith but which have no formal conciliar teaching.

This difference in what constitutes the content and boundaries of the faith and the doctrinal tradition is another major difference between Roman Catholics and the Orthodox.
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« Reply #1606 on: April 28, 2010, 01:16:21 PM »


Perhaps there is another problem, and that is differentiating between when a Pope speaks as a matter of doctrine versus when he speaks merely out of personal opinion. ....  In the West, since the Pope holds the position of supreme authority when it comes to the determination of doctrinal statements, it is assumed that every time a Pope speaks, he is speaking authoritatively on the matter of which he speaks.

This impression was reinforced by a pronouncement regarding 'infallibility' of the Pope's pronouncements, though I have heard that it has been variously attenuated and not even used in recent memory (unless I am mistaken, which is entirely possible in this matter).


Christ is Risen!

Whether they qualify as technically infallible or not by reason of the presence of the formula: "we believe, state, proclaim and define... to the whole Church", papal pronouncements still cannot not be denied by Catholics.

There is still a requirement to give assent to the teachings of the Pope, even when he is not speaking ex cathedra.  I find that quite interesting.  I know that modern Catholics will "smooth" that out by saying, "But of course, when he is speaking with the mind of the Church he speaks infallibly."
 
"This religious submission of mind and will must be shown in a special way to the authentic magisterium of the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking ex cathedra; that is, it must be shown in such a way that his supreme magisterium is acknowledged with reverence, the judgments made by him are sincerely adhered to, according to his manifest mind and will.”   
~Dogmatic Constitution on the Church #25

Now Lumen Gentium, the Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, is one of the principal documents of the Second Vatican Council. The Constitution was promulgated by Pope Paul VI on November 21, 1964, following approval by the assembled bishops by a vote of 2,151 to 5. 

Whether one posits infallibility in Ecumenical Councils or Popes or both, this document is ungainsayable on all counts, and the Pope was most certainly exercising his magisterial authority.  In other words, Catholics must give assent of mind and will to all papal teachings.
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« Reply #1607 on: April 28, 2010, 02:06:47 PM »

Well, then, by this definition, you are saying the Orthodox Church is not part of the Body of Christ?  After all, we do not understand the Teaching of the Church the way you do, and we do not believe this teaching emanates from the Holy Spirit.

Yesterday, on the RC forum, I was told that the Orthodox Church is not a true Church and that it is not Catholic.  I responded by saying that we are the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. 

The moderators deleted my post without notice.  I am surprised that I was not banned.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #1608 on: April 28, 2010, 04:33:46 PM »

Well, then, by this definition, you are saying the Orthodox Church is not part of the Body of Christ?  After all, we do not understand the Teaching of the Church the way you do, and we do not believe this teaching emanates from the Holy Spirit.

Yesterday, on the RC forum, I was told that the Orthodox Church is not a true Church and that it is not Catholic.  I responded by saying that we are the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. 

The moderators deleted my post without notice.  I am surprised that I was not banned.  Roll Eyes

Just today someone posted on my YouTube channel a similar statement.  I have asked him to give me an official source for this, which may have him searching for quite a while.   Wink
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« Reply #1609 on: April 28, 2010, 06:12:33 PM »


I don't think I'll pick up the neo-heresy concerning universal salvation however.


Is it not the Catholic Church's teaching that you are not obliged to say that anybody is in Hell?

Who was the Catholic mystic to whom Christ gave a vision of Hell and it was empty? 

PS: My own attitude to universal salvation summed up in my signature below.  I wouldn't be at all surprised if it were an admissible Catholic belief?

From Julian of Norwich, a 13th century mystic.
This is what Jesus revealed to her in His 13th revelation:


"Jesus, who in this vision informed me of all that I needed to know, answered with this assurance:
“Sin is befitting, but all shall be well, and all shall be well, and all manner of things shall be well.”
 
"It appears to me that there is a deed that the Holy Trinity shall do on the last day, and when
that deed shall be done and how it shall be done is unknown to all creatures under Christ, and shall
be until it has been done.--This is the great deed ordained by our Lord God from eternity, treasured
up and hidden in his blessed breast, only known to himself, and by this deed he shall make all things well;
for just as the Holy Trinity made all things from nothing, so the Holy Trinity shall make all well that is not well.

"And I wondered greatly at this revelation, and considered our faith, wondering as follows:
our faith is grounded in God’s word, and it is part of our faith that we should believe that God’s word
will be kept in all things; and one point of our faith is that many shall be damned,--And given all this,
I thought it impossible that all manner of things should be well, as our Lord revealed at this time.
And I received no other answer in showing from our Lord God but this: “What is impossible to you
is not impossible to me. I shall keep my word in all things and I shall make all things well."

Do you have any information from any EO councils that support the idea of universal salvation?
Christ is Risen!

It is a common mistake by Catholics who are obliged, it seems, only by such teachings as have the stamp of council or papal approbation (the rest falling into a dubious category of popular belief only) to assume that the Orthodox faith is also so limited.

But we live not only by "official statements" although they are vastly important mainly in the area of trinitarian and christological theology, but by the fulness of our Tradition.  If we were limited to conciliar statements we could deny the presence of Christ in the Eucharist.  We could deny the Dormition and bodily Assumption of the Mother of God... and quite a bundle of other things which are integral to the Orthodox faith but which have no formal conciliar teaching.

This difference in what constitutes the content and boundaries of the faith and the doctrinal tradition is another major difference between Roman Catholics and the Orthodox.
Is there anything in the Liturgy that supports you idea of universal salvation?
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« Reply #1610 on: April 28, 2010, 06:35:33 PM »

Cardinal Cormac Murphy O’Connor Speaks of His Hope for Universal Salvation

"We’re not bound to believe that anybody’s there (in hell)"

http://www.romancatholicism.org/cormac-apokatastasis.htm

Pope John Paul II seems to be heading in the direction of Universal Salvation

"Eternal damnation remains a possibility, but we are not granted, without special divine revelation, the knowledge of whether or which human beings are effectively involved in it." (General Audience — July 28, 1999)

http://www.romancatholicism.org/jpii-quotes.htm

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« Reply #1611 on: April 28, 2010, 06:49:46 PM »


 
Is there anything in the Liturgy that supports your idea of universal salvation?

First of all I should point out that the idea of universal salvation is not "mine."

My attitude is well summed up in the quote from Saint Maximos the Confessor at the bottom of this message.

However, if we wish to understand why quite a number of Church Fathers were inclined to it -very many, according to Saint Augustine- they were reading from the Scriptures (which are of course included in the liturgy.)

A selection of scriptural readings which lend themselves to an interpretation of universal salvation is given here..

http://www.romancatholicism.org/bible-quotes.htm


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« Reply #1612 on: April 28, 2010, 06:53:34 PM »


 
Is there anything in the Liturgy that supports your idea of universal salvation?

First of all I should point out that the idea of universal salvation is not "mine."

My attitude is well summed up in the quote from Saint Maximos the Confessor at the bottom of this message.

However, if we wish to understand why quite a number of Church Fathers were inclined to it -very many, according to Saint Augustine- they were reading from the Scriptures (which are of course included in the liturgy.)

A selection of scriptural readings which lend themselves to an interpretation of universal salvation is given here..

http://www.romancatholicism.org/bible-quotes.htm



So the answer is "no" then?
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« Reply #1613 on: April 28, 2010, 07:16:54 PM »


 
Is there anything in the Liturgy that supports your idea of universal salvation?

First of all I should point out that the idea of universal salvation is not "mine."

My attitude is well summed up in the quote from Saint Maximos the Confessor at the bottom of this message.

However, if we wish to understand why quite a number of Church Fathers were inclined to it -very many, according to Saint Augustine- they were reading from the Scriptures (which are of course included in the liturgy.)

A selection of scriptural readings which lend themselves to an interpretation of universal salvation is given here..

http://www.romancatholicism.org/bible-quotes.htm



So the answer is "no" then?
Christ is Risen!

If these liturgical readings from the Scriptures are read with the mind of the pro-universal salvation Church Fathers, the answer is yes.  Looking around that site which I have been referencing I can see how modern Catholicism is comfortable with the idea of universal salvation but refrains from promoting the idea.  Much in line with what Saint Maximos advises in the quote below.
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« Reply #1614 on: April 28, 2010, 07:23:48 PM »


I first learned the phrase "the protestantization of Orthodoxy", from Orthodox clergy.  And you know it as well as I do and that I can say with surety.

Very good article I came across from the newly martyred priest Fr Daniel Sysoiev.  I thought you may like to see it since it certainly shows that the Orthodox are in no danger of being Protestantised.  But there are other dangers....


 Tongue  This article proves nothing really.  Its a commentary on a particular place in time. 

You do have a very interesting argumentation style.  It is so very flexible.

We are discussing an assertion from a Byzantine Catholic that Orthodoxy is in a process of Protestantisation.  Absolutely no evidence has been adduced by the Byzantine Catholic.  So of course this discussion is going to be a little vague, a little flexible.  The Irish Hermit introduced an article which is quite questionable in many of its claims but at least shows that there appears to be no Protestantisation process underway.
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« Reply #1615 on: April 28, 2010, 08:00:43 PM »

There's a goldmine of quotes at romancatholicism.org. The site owner,Thomas Sparks, appears to be a full-blown Jansensist and condemns various papal heresies (as he defines them) going back 400 years. This places him somewhat in a different place then the various sedevacantist, "Old Catholic", Feeneyist or SSPX groups (he targets them as well). Apparently he's been all over the map theologically and some have pegged him as an alter ego of a convicted anti-semite webmaster. In effect, they are claiming that Sparks is an alias of Simon Sheppard, who registered both that site and fatherfeeney.org and others.

http://www.angelqueen.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27227
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« Reply #1616 on: April 28, 2010, 08:27:04 PM »

This is a bit off topic,

But just to let you guys know, this particular heresy has been swimming around, even in the Orthodox waters.

 Bishop Hilarion is telling us that St Issac of Syria says that, 'Gehenna is temporary' and he also said the st isaac said that, 'To say that God would eternally punish sinners is blasphemous'

But the thing about it is, is that didn't Christ himself say :

Matt 25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

So is Bishop Hilarion saying that Christ is blasphemous? Can it be that Christ did not want us to believe His own words? ...Impossible, eternity is eternity, even if there is 'purgatory'.

One minute in eternity is as the sands of the sea.




I was wondering about that also. He does say everlasting fire?
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« Reply #1617 on: April 28, 2010, 10:16:33 PM »

This is a bit off topic,

But just to let you guys know, this particular heresy has been swimming around, even in the Orthodox waters.

 Bishop Hilarion is telling us that St Issac of Syria says that, 'Gehenna is temporary' and he also said the st isaac said that, 'To say that God would eternally punish sinners is blasphemous'

But the thing about it is, is that didn't Christ himself say :

Matt 25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

So is Bishop Hilarion saying that Christ is blasphemous? Can it be that Christ did not want us to believe His own words? ...Impossible, eternity is eternity, even if there is 'purgatory'.

One minute in eternity is as the sands of the sea.




I was wondering about that also. He does say everlasting fire?


Christ speaks much about eternal punishment and fire in the gospels.

There is only one passage that you could say gives evidence for temporary torments, but that is nothing compared to all the times he talks about eternal torment, and eternal fire, and judgement.

And there is only one other saint that is said to have  believed in the so-called universal salvation, that is St Gregory of Nyssa.

But why would anybody want to go against the words of God, Jesus Christ?

I did not really feel like listening to all of what Bishop Hilarion said, because I felt like what he was saying was spiritually deadly.



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« Reply #1618 on: April 28, 2010, 10:38:50 PM »

http://eirenikon.wordpress.com/2008/04/10/bishop-hilarion-gods-mercy-is-immeasurable/

Quote
Thank you for your interest in what I said in Rome. However, I must state that what some of you take as my position is in fact that of St Isaac of Nineveh. It is his views that I tried to present as faithfully as I could in my paper and in my earlier book “The Spiritual World of Isaac the Syrian”, on which this paper is based. Please read the text of my paper here: http://orthodoxeurope.org/page/14/144.aspx#2.

As you will see, I clearly state: “The teaching on universal salvation, which is so explicitly preached by Isaac the Syrian, has never been approved by the Orthodox Church. On the contrary, Origenist idea of the apokatastasis ton panton (restoration of all), which has certain resemblance with this teaching, was condemned by the Fifth Ecumenical Council”.

Then I try to explain the difference between St Isaac and Origen: “However, we would not completely identify Isaac’s idea of the universal salvation with Origenist ‘restoration of all’. In Origen, universal restoration is not the end of the world, but a passing phase from one created world to another, which will come into existence after the present world has come to its end. This idea is alien to Christian tradition and unknown to Isaac. The latter is more dependent on other ancient writers, notably Theodore of Mopsuestia and Diodore of Tarsus, who also developed the idea of universal salvation, yet in a way different from Origen’s. On the other hand, it would not be fair to say that Isaac simply borrowed the ideas of his predecessors and inserted them into his own writings. Isaac’s eschatological optimism and his belief in universal salvation are ultimate outcomes of his personal theological vision, whose central idea is that of God as love. Around this idea the whole of his theological system is shaped”.
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DeathToTheWorld
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« Reply #1619 on: April 28, 2010, 10:52:41 PM »

This is what St John of the ladder has to say about this heresy.:

41. Step 5

'Let all of us, and especially the fallen, beware lest we sicken in heart from the disease of the atheist Origen. For this foul disease, by using God's love for man as an excuse, is readily accepted by pleasure-lovers.
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100. Like a bee one should extract from each of the virtues what is most profitable. In this way, by taking a small amount from all of them, one builds up from the practice of the virtues a great honeycomb overflowing with the soul-delighting honey of wisdom.

St Gregory of Sinai
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