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Author Topic: Indulgences, Temporal Punishment, Purgatory, etc  (Read 178781 times) Average Rating: 5
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Irish Hermit
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« Reply #1530 on: April 27, 2010, 01:03:02 AM »


Not at all!  We shan't be able to rest easily until you have come home.
Dear Father:
And from the Orthodox standpoint, what is required from the Roman Catholic Church for this to occur?
Christ is Risen, Alleluia

To put it simply, the Orthodox Churches will need to fell certain that Rome has returned to the orthodox catholic faith of the first millennium.

None of the Orthodox Churches seek Rome's submission.  To whom would it be in submission?  Jerusalem? Moscow? Belgrade?  Ludicrous! So submission is a not a factor for the Orthodox,.  What matters is the profession of a fully orthodox faith.  I imagine that the Orthodox Churches will convene a pan-Orthodox Council, even an Ecumenical Council, to discuss Rome's homecoming.


Quote
I recall that you have mentioned the fear that Orthodox have of Roman Catholics. How will this fear be allayed. Would it help if there is elected a Melkite bishop as Pope?

My understanding is that at the time of union it is accepted that the Eastern Catholic Churches will be folded back into their originating Orthodox Churches.

But it does not matter really.  Rome will certainly not be permitted in a united Christendom to return to its first millennium status of the first Church among the Churches..   Rome has been separated and in heresy for 1000 years now,  It has proven to be ailing and unable to overcome the heresies which have risen in its bosom.  It would not be appropriate to assign the position of first Church to Rome.   Rome will become a sister Church among the Orthodox Churches.  Rome will need a gentle time to recuperate, under the guidance of her sister Churches. A time without too much pressure, a time when it will not be asked to function as the first Church within the universal Church.

Apparently there are other Orthodox who don't follow this particular fantasy.

Thankfully.... angel

The "papacy" (itself a creature of fantasy) is the ailing old man of the Church, for a thousand years.  Would you promote it to first place and give it superiority over the healthy, over those who have faithfully preserved orthodoxy?
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« Reply #1531 on: April 27, 2010, 01:36:07 AM »


Apparently there are other Orthodox who don't follow this particular fantasy.

Thankfully.... angel

Extract from Inside the Vatican's report on Sunday's Old Mass at the National Shrine, the first time the Old Mass has been celebrated there for 40 years.

http://www.speroforum.com/a/31599/Solemn-Latin-Mass-in-Washington-stirs-change-in-Catholic-liturgy

It says something about our union with which, I think, Mary and I will be in profound agreement...

"The Orthodox Connection

"It is well known that the Orthodox, in a profound way, share Benedict's conviction that the liturgy is fundamental for faith, and so also for practice of the faith.

"For example, Eastern Orthodoxy's Patriarch Bartholomew I of Constantinople quoted the phrase "lex orandi, lex credendi" in Latin on the occasion of the visit of Pope Benedict XVI to Istanbul in 2006, drawing from the phrase the lesson that, "in liturgy, we are reminded of the need to reach unity in faith as well as in prayer."

"I believe that Pope Benedict's approval, a few months after that November 2006 visit, on July 7, 2007, of wider use of the old Latin Mass in the Latin rite, was intended to help prepare the reunion of the two great divided branches of Christianity, Catholicism and Orthodoxy.

"The path toward this reunion must pass, in some essential way, through the liturgy. Through a shared liturgy.

"The liturgies of the two Churches must express the same faith if the Churches are ever to be once again in unity -- something Christ willed for his disciples in his prayer on the final night with them before his crucifixion."
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« Reply #1532 on: April 27, 2010, 07:04:10 AM »


Not at all!  We shan't be able to rest easily until you have come home.
Dear Father:
And from the Orthodox standpoint, what is required from the Roman Catholic Church for this to occur?
Christ is Risen, Alleluia

To put it simply, the Orthodox Churches will need to fell certain that Rome has returned to the orthodox catholic faith of the first millennium.

None of the Orthodox Churches seek Rome's submission.  To whom would it be in submission?  Jerusalem? Moscow? Belgrade?  Ludicrous! So submission is a not a factor for the Orthodox,.  What matters is the profession of a fully orthodox faith.  I imagine that the Orthodox Churches will convene a pan-Orthodox Council, even an Ecumenical Council, to discuss Rome's homecoming.


Quote
I recall that you have mentioned the fear that Orthodox have of Roman Catholics. How will this fear be allayed. Would it help if there is elected a Melkite bishop as Pope?

My understanding is that at the time of union it is accepted that the Eastern Catholic Churches will be folded back into their originating Orthodox Churches.

But it does not matter really.  Rome will certainly not be permitted in a united Christendom to return to its first millennium status of the first Church among the Churches..   Rome has been separated and in heresy for 1000 years now,  It has proven to be ailing and unable to overcome the heresies which have risen in its bosom.  It would not be appropriate to assign the position of first Church to Rome.   Rome will become a sister Church among the Orthodox Churches.  Rome will need a gentle time to recuperate, under the guidance of her sister Churches. A time without too much pressure, a time when it will not be asked to function as the first Church within the universal Church.

Apparently there are other Orthodox who don't follow this particular fantasy.

Thankfully.... angel

The "papacy" (itself a creature of fantasy) is the ailing old man of the Church, for a thousand years.  Would you promote it to first place and give it superiority over the healthy, over those who have faithfully preserved orthodoxy?

An imperial papacy, when the office has been treated as such, was a sinful abuse of the office.  Not a fantasy but a real and palpable sinful employment of a God-given gift to the Church.

I read Scripture the way that the Catholic Church reads it.  If I did not I would be Orthodox.

Besides there's enough confusion in Orthodoxy today to keep me from mourning that decision too deeply.  And then I have you as an example.  I could never do to the Catholic Church what you do publicly.

Mary
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« Reply #1533 on: April 27, 2010, 07:20:54 AM »

The "papacy" (itself a creature of fantasy) is the ailing old man of the Church, for a thousand years.  Would you promote it to first place and give it superiority over the healthy, over those who have faithfully preserved orthodoxy?

An imperial papacy, when the office has been treated as such, was a sinful abuse of the office.  Not a fantasy but a real and palpable sinful employment of a God-given gift to the Church.

I read Scripture the way that the Catholic Church reads it.  If I did not I would be Orthodox.

Besides there's enough confusion in Orthodoxy today to keep me from mourning that decision too deeply.  And then I have you as an example.  I could never do to the Catholic Church what you do publicly.

I cannot help it, Mary, I cannot help it.  It is my deeply held belief that the institution of the papacy is a major aberration in the ecclesiology of the Catholic Church, something which Christ never called into existence. 

Before there can be unity between us this institution must be destroyed.  It has no place in the Church.

I believe that the words of St. Justin (Popovich) the great modern Serbian
Teacher, are more than a propos:

"...the Orthodox Church, in its nature and its dogmatically unchanging
constitution is episcopal and centered in the bishops. For the bishop and
the faithful gathered around him are the expression and
manifestation of the Church as the Body of Christ, especially in the Holy
Liturgy; the Church is Apostolic and Catholic only by virtue of its bishops,
insofar as they are the heads of true ecclesiastical
units, the dioceses.


"At the same time, the other, historically later and variable forms of
church organization of the Orthodox Church: the metropolias, archdioceses,
patriarchates, pentarchies, autocephalies, autonomies, etc., however many
there may be or shall be, cannot have and do not have a determining and
decisive significance in the conciliar system of the Orthodox Church.
Furthermore, they may constitute an obstacle in the correct functioning of
the conciliary principle if they obstruct and reject the episcopal character
and structure of the Church and of the Churches.


"Here, undoubtedly, is to be found the primary difference between Orthodox
and Papal ecclesiology."

-oOo-

"No heresy has ever raised up so radically and so completely against the God-Man Christ
and His Church as has the Papacy, with its dogma of the infallible Pope-man. There is no doubt:
this dogma is the heresy of heresies."

Archimandrite Justin Popovic, "Man and God-Man", Athens, 1987
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« Reply #1534 on: April 27, 2010, 07:29:04 AM »


I cannot help it, Mary, I cannot help it.  It is my deeply held belief that the institution of the papacy is a major aberration in the ecclesiology of the Catholic Church, something which Christ never called into existence. 

Before there can be unity between us this institution must be destroyed.  It has no place in the Church.

I believe that the words of St. Justin (Popovich) the great modern Serbian
Teacher, are more than a propos:

"...the Orthodox Church, in its nature and its dogmatically unchanging
constitution is episcopal and centered in the bishops. For the bishop and
the faithful gathered around him are the expression and
manifestation of the Church as the Body of Christ, especially in the Holy
Liturgy; the Church is Apostolic and Catholic only by virtue of its bishops,
insofar as they are the heads of true ecclesiastical
units, the dioceses.


"At the same time, the other, historically later and variable forms of
church organization of the Orthodox Church: the metropolias, archdioceses,
patriarchates, pentarchies, autocephalies, autonomies, etc., however many
there may be or shall be, cannot have and do not have a determining and
decisive significance in the conciliar system of the Orthodox Church.
Furthermore, they may constitute an obstacle in the correct functioning of
the conciliary principle if they obstruct and reject the episcopal character
and structure of the Church and of the Churches.


"Here, undoubtedly, is to be found the primary difference between Orthodox
and Papal ecclesiology."

This is a very late-in-the-day approach to Orthodox hierarchy.  It emerges out of the effects of modern social and political organization and the protestant reformation's general approach of every man for himself that is a direct result of sola fide and sola scriptura.  It can't be any other way.  There is a steady rejection of any and all authority save the authority of "I believe."

Take a look at your own note.

Mary
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Irish Hermit
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« Reply #1535 on: April 27, 2010, 07:43:41 AM »


I cannot help it, Mary, I cannot help it.  It is my deeply held belief that the institution of the papacy is a major aberration in the ecclesiology of the Catholic Church, something which Christ never called into existence.  

Before there can be unity between us this institution must be destroyed.  It has no place in the Church.

I believe that the words of St. Justin (Popovich) the great modern Serbian
Teacher, are more than a propos:

"...the Orthodox Church, in its nature and its dogmatically unchanging
constitution is episcopal and centered in the bishops. For the bishop and
the faithful gathered around him are the expression and
manifestation of the Church as the Body of Christ, especially in the Holy
Liturgy; the Church is Apostolic and Catholic only by virtue of its bishops,
insofar as they are the heads of true ecclesiastical
units, the dioceses.


"At the same time, the other, historically later and variable forms of
church organization of the Orthodox Church: the metropolias, archdioceses,
patriarchates, pentarchies, autocephalies, autonomies, etc., however many
there may be or shall be, cannot have and do not have a determining and
decisive significance in the conciliar system of the Orthodox Church.
Furthermore, they may constitute an obstacle in the correct functioning of
the conciliary principle if they obstruct and reject the episcopal character
and structure of the Church and of the Churches.


"Here, undoubtedly, is to be found the primary difference between Orthodox
and Papal ecclesiology."

This is a very late-in-the-day approach to Orthodox hierarchy.  It emerges out of the effects of modern social and political organization and the protestant reformation's general approach of every man for himself that is a direct result of sola fide and sola scriptura.  It can't be any other way.  There is a steady rejection of any and all authority save the authority of "I believe."

I would assert that this is precisely where we may find fault with the modern Purgatorial proponents.  Rejecting the consistent teaching of Popes and Councils and Saints and theologians of approx. 700 years, they claim their own authority to create a new version of Purgatory Lite.

Hey, we're back on topic!  laugh

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Irish Hermit
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« Reply #1536 on: April 27, 2010, 08:08:02 AM »


 It emerges out of the effects of modern social and political organization and the protestant reformation's general approach of every man for himself that is a direct result of sola fide and sola scriptura.  It can't be any other way.  There is a steady rejection of any and all authority save the authority of "I believe."

This is interesting since to the Orthodox mind Catholicism and Protestantism/Evangelicalism are in fact simply two sides of the same coin.

The Pope declared himself the sole arbiter of faith and morals and Scripture.  The Protestant Reformation simply took this principle one logical step further and declared that every man is his own Pope, his own arbiter of faith and morals and Scripture.  Hardly a hair's breadth of difference between the two positions.


The Russian theologian Khomiakov has a small explanation of the meaning of the word "catholic" (from Greek kata holou - according to the whole.)  He explains more of this...

He divides Christianity into three strands...

1. Catholic - kata holou - according to the whole - Orthodoxy

2. Kata-monou - according to one man - the Pope

3. Kata-ekastou - according to every individual - Protestantism (kind of an omni-papism, every man his own Pope.)


"The Apostolic Church is not the Church kath'hekastou (according to the understanding of each individual) as the Protestants teach,

"It is not the Church kata tou episkopou tes Romes (according to the understanding of the bishop of Rome) as the Latins preach;

"Orthodoxy is the Apostolic Church.  She is the Church kath'holou (according to the understanding of all within her unity), the Church as it was before the Western schism and as it is now for all whom the Lord has preserved from schism..."
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« Reply #1537 on: April 27, 2010, 08:32:34 AM »


 It emerges out of the effects of modern social and political organization and the protestant reformation's general approach of every man for himself that is a direct result of sola fide and sola scriptura.  It can't be any other way.  There is a steady rejection of any and all authority save the authority of "I believe."

This is interesting since to the Orthodox mind Catholicism and Protestantism/Evangelicalism are in fact simply two sides of the same coin.

Time and reality will tell a very different story.  The nuances and sometimes the very core of what traditionally has made Orthodoxy distinct has been set aside, and I will repeat what I say in every new venue...I first learned the phrase "the protestantization of Orthodoxy", from Orthodox clergy.  And you know it as well as I do and that I can say with surety.

Have you read many of the white papers written by Orthodox historians, in preparation for the current discussions on petrine primacy, concerning the Pentarchy in the first millennium compared to what has developed in the latter part of the second millennium in Orthodoxy?

Very enlightening.  

M.
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« Reply #1538 on: April 27, 2010, 08:48:08 AM »


 It emerges out of the effects of modern social and political organization and the protestant reformation's general approach of every man for himself that is a direct result of sola fide and sola scriptura.  It can't be any other way.  There is a steady rejection of any and all authority save the authority of "I believe."

This is interesting since to the Orthodox mind Catholicism and Protestantism/Evangelicalism are in fact simply two sides of the same coin.

Time and reality will tell a very different story.  The nuances and sometimes the very core of what traditionally has made Orthodoxy distinct has been set aside, and I will repeat what I say in every new venue...I first learned the phrase "the protestantization of Orthodoxy", from Orthodox clergy.  And you know it as well as I do and that I can say with surety.

I know the phrase, the "protestantization of Orthodoxy", only in the context of the American Church.  I decided to check by plugging the phrase into Google.com and sure enough, it gave only 6 returns and all connected with the United States.

Let's recall that the Orthodox in America comprise a mere 1% of global Orthodoxy and are not really that important (sorry, men! The approximately 10,000 of us in New Zealand are not so important either.)

If I were to see articles on the protestantisation of Orthodoxy in Russia or Bulgaria or Romania, then I would indeed sit up and take notice.

Quote
Have you read many of the white papers written by Orthodox historians, in preparation for the current discussions on petrine primacy, concerning the Pentarchy in the first millennium compared to what has developed in the latter part of the second millennium in Orthodoxy?

Would you recommend some of these historians? 
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« Reply #1539 on: April 27, 2010, 08:57:08 AM »

Have you read many of the white papers written by Orthodox historians, in preparation for the current discussions on petrine primacy, concerning the Pentarchy in the first millennium compared to what has developed in the latter part of the second millennium in Orthodoxy?
Christ is Risen!

The paper we are all really keen to see is the official one prepared in Moscow at the request of the Synod of Bishops.  Composed in the 3 years between Belgrade 2006 and Cyprus 2009.  It is the Russian study of the role of the Archbishop of Rome in the Church. 

Metropolitan Hilarion distributed copies to all 60 participants at the commencement of the Cyprus meeting.

However it has been kept under an embargo and nobody has leaked it.  A great pity!
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« Reply #1540 on: April 27, 2010, 09:25:30 AM »

I first learned the phrase "the protestantization of Orthodoxy", from Orthodox clergy.  And you know it as well as I do and that I can say with surety.

You are kidding, right?  Everything in America is subject to protestantization.  It is a protestant country.  What makes me sit up and take notice is when I see the Roman Catholic Church conduct clown and/or halloween Masses using Liturgical dancers.  The Catholic nuns are fond of teaching reiki, enneagrams, mandalas, labyrinths, eco-spirituality, and yoga.  Having been Roman Catholic for many years, when I am obligated to return for a wedding or funeral---I feel like I am attending a protestant service.   
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« Reply #1541 on: April 27, 2010, 10:22:02 AM »


You are kidding, right?  Everything in America is subject to protestantization.  

Nope.  Not kidding at all.  In fact you make my point.  The difference in this case between the Catholics and the Orthodox is that as a catechist, I have a place to go that will give me the formal teaching of the Church with which I am able to combat differences of opinion, and shore up the lukewarm sides of certain unpopular teachings with the formal truth.

I am sitting here with five different texts that I know are being used in various Orthodox jurisdictions to catechize inquirers and catechumen and they all differ to some degree on a variety of points.  Sometimes they are as notable for that which is not said as they are notable for that which is said.

So in a Church of any size and geographic distribution, you will find odd things creeping up now and then.   The issue then becomes how or even IF you do anything to combat that doctrinal or theological creep....Time will tell.

M.
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« Reply #1542 on: April 27, 2010, 10:36:42 AM »


You are kidding, right?  Everything in America is subject to protestantization. 

Nope.  Not kidding at all.  In fact you make my point.  The difference in this case between the Catholics and the Orthodox is that as a catechist, I have a place to go that will give me the formal teaching of the Church with which I am able to combat differences of opinion, and shore up the lukewarm sides of certain unpopular teachings with the formal truth.

I am sitting here with five different texts that I know are being used in various Orthodox jurisdictions to catechize inquirers and catechumen and they all differ to some degree on a variety of points.  Sometimes they are as notable for that which is not said as they are notable for that which is said.

So in a Church of any size and geographic distribution, you will find odd things creeping up now and then.   The issue then becomes how or even IF you do anything to combat that doctrinal or theological creep....Time will tell.

Time has already told!  And in favour of the Orthodox!

Pope Benedict has praised the Orthodox for preserving the faith pure and entire for the 1000 years since the separation with Rome -of course he adds that the Orthodox lack one thing, the Papacy, but then you'd expect him to say that.

So in the words of Pope Benedict, we are assured that there has been NO doctrinal or theological creep in the last thousand years within Orthodoxy.

This fact alone points to the utter superfluity of both the Papacy and the Magisterium,  We have kept the faith intact without them.  How?..... about 2000 years ago the Saviour promised to send us the Holy Spirit, the Comforter, the Spirit of Truth, who would preserve us in the truth.
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« Reply #1543 on: April 27, 2010, 10:49:47 AM »

Pope Benedict has praised the Orthodox for preserving the faith pure and entire for the 1000 years since the separation with Rome -of course he adds that the Orthodox lack one thing, the Papacy, but then you'd expect him to say that.

So in the words of Pope Benedict, we are assured that there has been NO doctrinal or theological creep in the last thousand years within Orthodoxy.

Please provide a citation for this statement by the pope.  It is not that I doubt you.  It is just that documentation of his remark will, no doubt, be useful.
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« Reply #1544 on: April 27, 2010, 11:12:33 AM »


You are kidding, right?  Everything in America is subject to protestantization. 

Nope.  Not kidding at all.  In fact you make my point.  The difference in this case between the Catholics and the Orthodox is that as a catechist, I have a place to go that will give me the formal teaching of the Church with which I am able to combat differences of opinion, and shore up the lukewarm sides of certain unpopular teachings with the formal truth.

I am sitting here with five different texts that I know are being used in various Orthodox jurisdictions to catechize inquirers and catechumen and they all differ to some degree on a variety of points.  Sometimes they are as notable for that which is not said as they are notable for that which is said.

So in a Church of any size and geographic distribution, you will find odd things creeping up now and then.   The issue then becomes how or even IF you do anything to combat that doctrinal or theological creep....Time will tell.

Time has already told!  And in favour of the Orthodox!

Pope Benedict has praised the Orthodox for preserving the faith pure and entire for the 1000 years since the separation with Rome -of course he adds that the Orthodox lack one thing, the Papacy, but then you'd expect him to say that.

So in the words of Pope Benedict, we are assured that there has been NO doctrinal or theological creep in the last thousand years within Orthodoxy.

This fact alone points to the utter superfluity of both the Papacy and the Magisterium,  We have kept the faith intact without them.  How?..... about 2000 years ago the Saviour promised to send us the Holy Spirit, the Comforter, the Spirit of Truth, who would preserve us in the truth.

In very general terms he is speaking with some degree of accuracy.  But remember this is the pope and he's bound to be somewhat delusional...according to the Orthodox....simply by dint of the fact that he IS the pope and believes all that stuff the Church teaches.

So you cannot...really and truly...have it both ways.

Sure there's heterodox creep.  Its ubiquitous.  The question, as I noted is how does one push back against it....or DOES one even try.

M.
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« Reply #1545 on: April 27, 2010, 11:23:21 AM »

In fact you make my point. 

I have done no such thing.
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« Reply #1546 on: April 27, 2010, 11:24:02 AM »

Time has already told!  And in favour of the Orthodox!

Indeed!

This fact alone points to the utter superfluity of both the Papacy and the Magisterium,  We have kept the faith intact without them.  How?..... about 2000 years ago the Saviour promised to send us the Holy Spirit, the Comforter, the Spirit of Truth, who would preserve us in the truth.

O strange Orthodox Church, so poor and weak, with neither the organization nor the culture of the West, staying afloat as if by a miracle in the face of so many trials, tribulations and struggles; a Church of contrasts, both so traditional and so free, so archaic and so alive, so ritualist and so personally involved, a Church where the priceless pearl of the Gospel is assiduously preserved, sometimes under a layer of dust; a Church which in shadows and silence maintains above all the eternal values of purity, poverty, asceticism, humility and forgiveness; a Church which has often not known how to act, but which can sing of the joy of Easter like no other."

-- from Fr Lev Gillet, 1937
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« Reply #1547 on: April 27, 2010, 11:26:03 AM »

Pope Benedict has praised the Orthodox for preserving the faith pure and entire for the 1000 years since the separation with Rome -of course he adds that the Orthodox lack one thing, the Papacy, but then you'd expect him to say that.

So in the words of Pope Benedict, we are assured that there has been NO doctrinal or theological creep in the last thousand years within Orthodoxy.

Please provide a citation for this statement by the pope.  It is not that I doubt you.  It is just that documentation of his remark will, no doubt, be useful.

It's a fairly well known statement by Pope Benedict but I am hard put to give the reference.  Three months ago my computer "hung" while working in Outlook Express and had to be shut down and restarted.  It lost nearly all the e-mail folder "Catholic" where such things were archived, plus large sections of other folders.

Hopefully someone knowledgeable such as Mary will know where to locate it again.  I've already searched through this forum but it did not show up.
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« Reply #1548 on: April 27, 2010, 11:29:25 AM »

Time has already told!  And in favour of the Orthodox!

Indeed!

This fact alone points to the utter superfluity of both the Papacy and the Magisterium,  We have kept the faith intact without them.  How?..... about 2000 years ago the Saviour promised to send us the Holy Spirit, the Comforter, the Spirit of Truth, who would preserve us in the truth.

O strange Orthodox Church, so poor and weak, with neither the organization nor the culture of the West, staying afloat as if by a miracle in the face of so many trials, tribulations and struggles; a Church of contrasts, both so traditional and so free, so archaic and so alive, so ritualist and so personally involved, a Church where the priceless pearl of the Gospel is assiduously preserved, sometimes under a layer of dust; a Church which in shadows and silence maintains above all the eternal values of purity, poverty, asceticism, humility and forgiveness; a Church which has often not known how to act, but which can sing of the joy of Easter like no other."

-- from Fr Lev Gillet, 1937


LOL....Like I said you cannot have it both ways.  Father Lev was a Catholic who translated to Orthodoxy and continued to believe as a Catholic...stupidly also believing...that other than the petrine ministry Catholics and Orthodox shared the same faith.

If I cannot use Lev Gillet as a credible witness for the Catholic truths that he continued to write about after becoming Orthodox then how the dickens do you think I will accept him as a credible witness concerning what Orthodoxy teaches.

C'mon.  Can't have it both ways!!...well...not honestly at any rate but who bothers about that?

M.
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« Reply #1549 on: April 27, 2010, 11:32:14 AM »


You are kidding, right?  Everything in America is subject to protestantization. 

Nope.  Not kidding at all.  In fact you make my point.  The difference in this case between the Catholics and the Orthodox is that as a catechist, I have a place to go that will give me the formal teaching of the Church with which I am able to combat differences of opinion, and shore up the lukewarm sides of certain unpopular teachings with the formal truth.

I am sitting here with five different texts that I know are being used in various Orthodox jurisdictions to catechize inquirers and catechumen and they all differ to some degree on a variety of points.  Sometimes they are as notable for that which is not said as they are notable for that which is said.

So in a Church of any size and geographic distribution, you will find odd things creeping up now and then.   The issue then becomes how or even IF you do anything to combat that doctrinal or theological creep....Time will tell.

Time has already told!  And in favour of the Orthodox!

Pope Benedict has praised the Orthodox for preserving the faith pure and entire for the 1000 years since the separation with Rome -of course he adds that the Orthodox lack one thing, the Papacy, but then you'd expect him to say that.

So in the words of Pope Benedict, we are assured that there has been NO doctrinal or theological creep in the last thousand years within Orthodoxy.

This fact alone points to the utter superfluity of both the Papacy and the Magisterium,  We have kept the faith intact without them.  How?..... about 2000 years ago the Saviour promised to send us the Holy Spirit, the Comforter, the Spirit of Truth, who would preserve us in the truth.

In very general terms he is speaking with some degree of accuracy.  But remember this is the pope and he's bound to be somewhat delusional...according to the Orthodox....simply by dint of the fact that he IS the pope and believes all that stuff the Church teaches.

So you cannot...really and truly...have it both ways.



I think the point here is, do you Mary believe that the Pontiff is delusional?   laugh  I'd be happy with just a Yes or No.
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« Reply #1550 on: April 27, 2010, 11:41:19 AM »


  Father Lev was a Catholic who translated to Orthodoxy and continued to believe as a Catholic...

We have to know something of the quite unique life and personality of Fr Lev Gillet.  Fr Lev was one of the rare pioneering converts from Roman Catholicism to Orthodoxy in the 1920s nearly all of whom were eccentrics in one way or another.  He retained all his life a strong love for both Western and Eastern traditions and monasticism in particular.   He was sometimes accused of not truly converting to Orthodoxy but of being a Roman Catholic subversive within Orthodoxy: this was not true.

To read a brief life of this rather extraordinary monk...

http://www.jacwell.org/spring_summer2000/father_lev_gillet.htm

Memory Eternal, Fr Lev!
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« Reply #1551 on: April 27, 2010, 11:47:59 AM »


You are kidding, right?  Everything in America is subject to protestantization. 

Nope.  Not kidding at all.  In fact you make my point.  The difference in this case between the Catholics and the Orthodox is that as a catechist, I have a place to go that will give me the formal teaching of the Church with which I am able to combat differences of opinion, and shore up the lukewarm sides of certain unpopular teachings with the formal truth.

I am sitting here with five different texts that I know are being used in various Orthodox jurisdictions to catechize inquirers and catechumen and they all differ to some degree on a variety of points.  Sometimes they are as notable for that which is not said as they are notable for that which is said.

So in a Church of any size and geographic distribution, you will find odd things creeping up now and then.   The issue then becomes how or even IF you do anything to combat that doctrinal or theological creep....Time will tell.

Time has already told!  And in favour of the Orthodox!

Pope Benedict has praised the Orthodox for preserving the faith pure and entire for the 1000 years since the separation with Rome -of course he adds that the Orthodox lack one thing, the Papacy, but then you'd expect him to say that.

So in the words of Pope Benedict, we are assured that there has been NO doctrinal or theological creep in the last thousand years within Orthodoxy.

This fact alone points to the utter superfluity of both the Papacy and the Magisterium,  We have kept the faith intact without them.  How?..... about 2000 years ago the Saviour promised to send us the Holy Spirit, the Comforter, the Spirit of Truth, who would preserve us in the truth.
I doubt he considers the idea that soul can repent after death to be part of the preservation. At times our hierarches make exaggerated statements about your communion. I don't think they are being dishonest, only stating the situation in the most positive light possible.
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« Reply #1552 on: April 27, 2010, 12:09:32 PM »

I would assert that this is precisely where we may find fault with the modern Purgatorial proponents.  Rejecting the consistent teaching of Popes and Councils and Saints and theologians of approx. 700 years, they claim their own authority to create a new version of Purgatory Lite.

Hey, we're back on topic!  laugh

Getting back to the tradtional teaching of Purgatory....the EWTN website has a copy of the work: "READ ME OR RUE IT" by Father Paul O'Sullivan.

This book has the APPROVAL OF HIS EMINENCE THE CARDINAL PATRIARCH OF LISBON.

According to this work:

"People do not realize what Purgatory is. They have no conception of its
dreadful pains, and they have no idea of the long years that souls are
detained in these awful fires."


"WHAT IS PURGATORY?
"It is a prison of fire in which nearly all [saved] souls are plunged after
death and in which they suffer the intensest pain."


http://www.ewtn.com/library/SPIRIT/READRUE.TXT

It is quite clear from this book, when it is lined up against the modern purgatorial teaching, that there is some major theological and doctrinal creep in the Catholic Church.

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« Reply #1553 on: April 27, 2010, 12:16:28 PM »

I would assert that this is precisely where we may find fault with the modern Purgatorial proponents.  Rejecting the consistent teaching of Popes and Councils and Saints and theologians of approx. 700 years, they claim their own authority to create a new version of Purgatory Lite.

Hey, we're back on topic!  laugh

Getting back to the tradtional teaching of Purgatory....the EWTN website has a copy of the work: "READ ME OR RUE IT" by Father Paul O'Sullivan.

This book has the APPROVAL OF HIS EMINENCE THE CARDINAL PATRIARCH OF LISBON.

According to this work:

"People do not realize what Purgatory is. They have no conception of its
dreadful pains, and they have no idea of the long years that souls are
detained in these awful fires."


"WHAT IS PURGATORY?
"It is a prison of fire in which nearly all [saved] souls are plunged after
death and in which they suffer the intensest pain."


http://www.ewtn.com/library/SPIRIT/READRUE.TXT

Theologumena
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« Reply #1554 on: April 27, 2010, 12:22:46 PM »

I would assert that this is precisely where we may find fault with the modern Purgatorial proponents.  Rejecting the consistent teaching of Popes and Councils and Saints and theologians of approx. 700 years, they claim their own authority to create a new version of Purgatory Lite.

Hey, we're back on topic!  laugh

Getting back to the tradtional teaching of Purgatory....the EWTN website has a copy of the work: "READ ME OR RUE IT" by Father Paul O'Sullivan.

This book has the APPROVAL OF HIS EMINENCE THE CARDINAL PATRIARCH OF LISBON.

According to this work:

"People do not realize what Purgatory is. They have no conception of its
dreadful pains, and they have no idea of the long years that souls are
detained in these awful fires."


"WHAT IS PURGATORY?
"It is a prison of fire in which nearly all [saved] souls are plunged after
death and in which they suffer the intensest pain."


http://www.ewtn.com/library/SPIRIT/READRUE.TXT

Theologumena

Yesterday's unquestionable teachings, from Popes and Saints and theologians, are today's theologoumena.  laugh  How are we ever going to dialogue with Rome?
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« Reply #1555 on: April 27, 2010, 12:29:24 PM »

I would assert that this is precisely where we may find fault with the modern Purgatorial proponents.  Rejecting the consistent teaching of Popes and Councils and Saints and theologians of approx. 700 years, they claim their own authority to create a new version of Purgatory Lite.

Hey, we're back on topic!  laugh

Getting back to the tradtional teaching of Purgatory....the EWTN website has a copy of the work: "READ ME OR RUE IT" by Father Paul O'Sullivan.

This book has the APPROVAL OF HIS EMINENCE THE CARDINAL PATRIARCH OF LISBON.

According to this work:

"People do not realize what Purgatory is. They have no conception of its
dreadful pains, and they have no idea of the long years that souls are
detained in these awful fires."


"WHAT IS PURGATORY?
"It is a prison of fire in which nearly all [saved] souls are plunged after
death and in which they suffer the intensest pain."


http://www.ewtn.com/library/SPIRIT/READRUE.TXT

Theologumena

Yesterday's unquestionable teachings, from Popes and Saints and theologians, are today's theologoumena.  laugh  How are we ever going to dialogue with Rome?

You, of the staunch Conciliar Church, have the Roman Conciliar Documents defining purgation.  I gave them to us in this discussion for a purpose.

Anything else is Theologoumena.  

That is the orthodox way.

So don't beef about it.  You established the terms.  I am holding you to them.

Since you generally decline to play fairly in these discussions in any event, trying to take control of all definitions.  

Now deal with the real reality...not the one you've been promoting all these years on the Internet.

Mary
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« Reply #1556 on: April 27, 2010, 12:37:52 PM »


You, of the staunch Conciliar Church, have the Roman Conciliar Documents defining purgation.  I gave them to us in this discussion for a purpose.

Anything else is Theologumena. 

That is the orthodox way.

So don't beef about it.  You established the terms.  I am holding you to them.

Since you generally decline to play fairly in these discussions in any event, trying to take control of all definitions.   

Now deal with the real reality...not the one you've been promoting all these years on the Internet.

OK, we know that the teaching on indulgences has no approval, neither from an infallible statement from a Council nor an infallible statement from a Pope. Do we agree on that?

This reduces the idea of indulgences to a theologoumenon.

This means that the Popes who believe they have access to the merits of Christ and have the authority to allot them in the form of indulgences may indeed be delusional as you say.
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« Reply #1557 on: April 27, 2010, 12:49:37 PM »

I would assert that this is precisely where we may find fault with the modern Purgatorial proponents.  Rejecting the consistent teaching of Popes and Councils and Saints and theologians of approx. 700 years, they claim their own authority to create a new version of Purgatory Lite.

Hey, we're back on topic!  laugh

Getting back to the tradtional teaching of Purgatory....the EWTN website has a copy of the work: "READ ME OR RUE IT" by Father Paul O'Sullivan.

This book has the APPROVAL OF HIS EMINENCE THE CARDINAL PATRIARCH OF LISBON.

According to this work:

"People do not realize what Purgatory is. They have no conception of its
dreadful pains, and they have no idea of the long years that souls are
detained in these awful fires."


"WHAT IS PURGATORY?
"It is a prison of fire in which nearly all [saved] souls are plunged after
death and in which they suffer the intensest pain."


http://www.ewtn.com/library/SPIRIT/READRUE.TXT

Theologoumena
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« Reply #1558 on: April 27, 2010, 01:00:02 PM »


You, of the staunch Conciliar Church, have the Roman Conciliar Documents defining purgation.  I gave them to us in this discussion for a purpose.

Anything else is Theologumena. 

That is the orthodox way.

So don't beef about it.  You established the terms.  I am holding you to them.

Since you generally decline to play fairly in these discussions in any event, trying to take control of all definitions.   

Now deal with the real reality...not the one you've been promoting all these years on the Internet.

OK, we know that the teaching on indulgences has no approval, neither from an infallible statement from a Council nor an infallible statement from a Pope. Do we agree on that?

This reduces the idea of indulgences to a theologoumenon.

This means that the Popes who believe they have access to the merits of Christ and have the authority to allot them in the form of indulgences may indeed be delusional as you say.

Not agreed at all.  There was the anathema of Trent against those who teach against indulgences, specifically Wycliffe and Luther,  and the Indulgence Decretal from Pope Leo X.

There are no such Conciliar documents or papal documents teaching that purgatory is a place or any of the other myriad theoria that have grown up around the doctrine of purgation.  They do not exist except as theologoumenon or theoria. 

There is a formal teaching that purgation is REAL but there is no such teaching that purgation is LITERAL.  I have noted that difference here in an earlier segment.

Indulgences have a clear cut formal and conciliar teaching.  The minutia of purgatory do not.

M.

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« Reply #1559 on: April 27, 2010, 02:21:23 PM »

LOL....Like I said you cannot have it both ways.  Father Lev was a Catholic who translated to Orthodoxy and continued to believe as a Catholic...stupidly also believing...that other than the petrine ministry Catholics and Orthodox shared the same faith.

If I cannot use Lev Gillet as a credible witness for the Catholic truths that he continued to write about after becoming Orthodox then how the dickens do you think I will accept him as a credible witness concerning what Orthodoxy teaches.

I am familiar with Fr Lev and the controversy that surrounded him.  

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« Reply #1560 on: April 27, 2010, 02:31:05 PM »

LOL....Like I said you cannot have it both ways.  Father Lev was a Catholic who translated to Orthodoxy and continued to believe as a Catholic...stupidly also believing...that other than the petrine ministry Catholics and Orthodox shared the same faith.

If I cannot use Lev Gillet as a credible witness for the Catholic truths that he continued to write about after becoming Orthodox then how the dickens do you think I will accept him as a credible witness concerning what Orthodoxy teaches.

I am familiar with Fr Lev and the controversy that surrounded him. 

Why must you always be so biting and sarcastic? There seems to be a very large chip on your shoulder?   Undecided

I am not always biting and sarcastic.  I am sometimes biting but very rarely sarcastic.  Having a sharpness of tongue is not necessarily sinful.  I don't believe I have attacked you.  But I am sorry if you felt attacked or slashed at verbally.  If the effect is there then it impedes discussion,  and I hope I can be a little less sharp with you from now on.

Mary
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« Reply #1561 on: April 27, 2010, 02:54:01 PM »

I am not always biting and sarcastic.  I am sometimes biting but very rarely sarcastic.  Having a sharpness of tongue is not necessarily sinful.  I don't believe I have attacked you.  But I am sorry if you felt attacked or slashed at verbally.  If the effect is there then it impedes discussion,  and I hope I can be a little less sharp with you from now on.

I suppose you were writing this as I modified my post.  I did not say that you have attacked me....it just seems that you are often upset and/or disturbed about something.  Perhaps it is just a consequence of the format of a discussion forum.
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« Reply #1562 on: April 27, 2010, 03:00:26 PM »

There are no such Conciliar documents or papal documents teaching that purgatory is a place or any of the other myriad theoria that have grown up around the doctrine of purgation.  They do not exist except as theologoumenon or theoria. 

Do you agree that the Latin doctrine teaches that there are purgatorial punishments through fire and torments?
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« Reply #1563 on: April 27, 2010, 03:12:49 PM »

I am not always biting and sarcastic.  I am sometimes biting but very rarely sarcastic.  Having a sharpness of tongue is not necessarily sinful.  I don't believe I have attacked you.  But I am sorry if you felt attacked or slashed at verbally.  If the effect is there then it impedes discussion,  and I hope I can be a little less sharp with you from now on.

I suppose you were writing this as I modified my post.  I did not say that you have attacked me....it just seems that you are often upset and/or disturbed about something.  Perhaps it is just a consequence of the format of a discussion forum.

Yep.  And I tend to be working fast and hitting the points that I want to make and moving on.  Sometimes that works all right.  Sometimes it makes my text seem to brusque!!...and I rarely use emoticons when I am in a hurry!!...  Cool

Doesn't hurt that you remind me that I need to slow down and breathe sometimes...and that sometimes it does feel as though I am slapping out...but generally there would be NO doubt if I truly was annoyed or angry!!...

M.
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« Reply #1564 on: April 27, 2010, 03:22:50 PM »

There are no such Conciliar documents or papal documents teaching that purgatory is a place or any of the other myriad theoria that have grown up around the doctrine of purgation.  They do not exist except as theologoumenon or theoria. 

Do you agree that the Latin doctrine teaches that there are purgatorial punishments through fire and torments?

Define fire.

By that I take you back to my emphasis on saying that Catholics teach purgation is real not literal fire.

Scripture refers to fire, so as Scripture uses the imagery of fire, so too then does Tradition carry on that traditional imagery...eh?  So in that sense yes, there are explanations of purgation that use the imagery of fire...but that is not part of the formal definitions.  And it is real fire not literal fire.

Torments?  Surely any purgation of bad habits and seemingly insignificant sins worth its salt is going to be as tormenting as sins and their consequences are here in this life and it is in this manner that the Catholic Church speaks of the torments of purgation.

All the other kinds of imagery added to this very basic teaching is not formally doctrinal teaching.  It is devotional theoria and cautionary embellishments meant to scare the pants off an ordinary bloke!!

Do I ever make use of these kinds of embellishments when I teach?  Now and then, I've used them to illustrate historical points but not when I am teaching Catholic spirituality.  And I leave the teaching of Latin rite piety over the past couple of hundred years to others...because I am not well versed or well practiced in such things.

M
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« Reply #1565 on: April 27, 2010, 03:33:47 PM »

Pope Benedict has praised the Orthodox for preserving the faith pure and entire for the 1000 years since the separation with Rome -of course he adds that the Orthodox lack one thing, the Papacy, but then you'd expect him to say that.

So in the words of Pope Benedict, we are assured that there has been NO doctrinal or theological creep in the last thousand years within Orthodoxy.

Please provide a citation for this statement by the pope.  It is not that I doubt you.  It is just that documentation of his remark will, no doubt, be useful.

It's a fairly well known statement by Pope Benedict but I am hard put to give the reference.  Three months ago my computer "hung" while working in Outlook Express and had to be shut down and restarted.  It lost nearly all the e-mail folder "Catholic" where such things were archived, plus large sections of other folders.

Hopefully someone knowledgeable such as Mary will know where to locate it again.  I've already searched through this forum but it did not show up.

The most familiar of his statements concerning Orthodoxy is in his book Principles of Catholic Theology.

I doubt that is your particular reference here but it is a good place to get a feel for his approach to Orthodoxy and her fidelity to Scripture and Tradition.
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« Reply #1566 on: April 27, 2010, 03:44:32 PM »

By that I take you back to my emphasis on saying that Catholics teach purgation is real not literal fire.

I think I have missed this post. What is the difference between real fire and literal fire?
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« Reply #1567 on: April 27, 2010, 03:53:28 PM »

I would assert that this is precisely where we may find fault with the modern Purgatorial proponents.  Rejecting the consistent teaching of Popes and Councils and Saints and theologians of approx. 700 years, they claim their own authority to create a new version of Purgatory Lite.

Hey, we're back on topic!  laugh

Getting back to the tradtional teaching of Purgatory....the EWTN website has a copy of the work: "READ ME OR RUE IT" by Father Paul O'Sullivan.

This book has the APPROVAL OF HIS EMINENCE THE CARDINAL PATRIARCH OF LISBON.

According to this work:

"People do not realize what Purgatory is. They have no conception of its
dreadful pains, and they have no idea of the long years that souls are
detained in these awful fires."


"WHAT IS PURGATORY?
"It is a prison of fire in which nearly all [saved] souls are plunged after
death and in which they suffer the intensest pain."


http://www.ewtn.com/library/SPIRIT/READRUE.TXT

It is quite clear from this book, when it is lined up against the modern purgatorial teaching, that there is some major theological and doctrinal creep in the Catholic Church.


Yes:
http://www.ewtn.com/library/SPIRIT/READRUE.TXT
I think that this is the teaching of Purgatory as it was taught before Vatican II.
Readme or Rue it.
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« Reply #1568 on: April 27, 2010, 04:11:55 PM »

By that I take you back to my emphasis on saying that Catholics teach purgation is real not literal fire.

I think I have missed this post. What is the difference between real fire and literal fire?

I used the example of the burning bush.

Does literal fire as we know it burn without consuming?  No.

Was the burning bush really burning?  Yes

Was it literal fire?  Not as we know it.

Are the fires of purgation literal fire as we know it...Most likely not.

M.
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« Reply #1569 on: April 27, 2010, 04:56:34 PM »

Help keep TAN books new owners in business! (i.e. this pamphlet is still in print... )

http://www.tanbooks.com/index.php/page/shop:flypage/product_id/364/
http://www.tanbooks.com/index.php/page/shop:flypage/product_id/418/
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« Reply #1570 on: April 27, 2010, 09:31:04 PM »

Indulgences have a clear cut formal and conciliar teaching.  The minutia of purgatory do not.


Could you please reference the official doctrinal teaching that Popes are permitted by Christ to make use of His treasury of merits and out of them they create and award indulgences to people who fulfil certain conditions stipulated by the Pope.     If there is no proof that Pope can use the treasury of merits then the doctrine of indulgences is fraudulent.

Is this a teaching guaranteed as infallible so that the Catholic faithful may believe it as inerrant and divinely revealed truth?  Where is the guarantee officially stated?

Quote
This means that the Popes who believe they have access to the merits of Christ and have the authority to allot them in the form of indulgences may indeed be delusional as you say.
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« Reply #1571 on: April 27, 2010, 09:33:34 PM »

Indulgences have a clear cut formal and conciliar teaching.  The minutia of purgatory do not.


Could you please reference the official doctrinal teaching that Popes are permitted by Christ to make use of His treasury of merits and out of them they create and award indulgences to people who fulfil certain conditions stipulated by the Pope.     If there is no proof that Pope can use the treasury of merits then the doctrine of indulgences is fraudulent.

Is this a teaching guaranteed as infallible so that the Catholic faithful may believe it as inerrant and divinely revealed truth?  Where is the guarantee officially stated?

Quote
This means that the Popes who believe they have access to the merits of Christ and have the authority to allot them in the form of indulgences may indeed be delusional as you say.

See my original note where I listed the two formal sources.
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« Reply #1572 on: April 27, 2010, 09:36:08 PM »


Obviously a popular book on Purgatory.  TAN is selling it in quantity.  Probably a bit sad for those pushing the new revisionist Purgatory that so many Catholics are learning of Purgatory in the pre-Vatican II tradition.   laugh  But it  does help explain the way the Catholics on CAF can find very little common ground in their understanding and battle away at it among themselves..
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« Reply #1573 on: April 27, 2010, 09:38:14 PM »

As a curio, I read somewhere that the upcoming UGCC catechism contains no references to purgatory or original sin.
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« Reply #1574 on: April 27, 2010, 09:39:27 PM »

Indulgences have a clear cut formal and conciliar teaching.  The minutia of purgatory do not.


Could you please reference the official doctrinal teaching that Popes are permitted by Christ to make use of His treasury of merits and out of them they create and award indulgences to people who fulfil certain conditions stipulated by the Pope.     If there is no proof that Pope can use the treasury of merits then the doctrine of indulgences is fraudulent.

Is this a teaching guaranteed as infallible so that the Catholic faithful may believe it as inerrant and divinely revealed truth?  Where is the guarantee officially stated?

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This means that the Popes who believe they have access to the merits of Christ and have the authority to allot them in the form of indulgences may indeed be delusional as you say.

See my original note where I listed the two formal sources.

Could you cite the specific reference/s to the Pope's ability to control and allocate the merits of Christ.  The entire doctrine of indulgences hinges on this.
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