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Author Topic: Indulgences, Temporal Punishment, Purgatory, etc  (Read 178215 times) Average Rating: 5
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Papist
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« Reply #1350 on: April 20, 2010, 07:17:42 PM »

So its not real fire? Then you must have changed your teaching since Jesus talked about fire. Hmmmm. I just can't pin down the EO position.  Roll Eyes

Dear Papist,

Material fire cannot burn an immaterial soul.  If a soul is being burned in purgatory/intermediate state/ etc., a non-material fire would be necessary, wouldn't it?

I'm not mocking your tradition.  Nor am I departing from the words of the Lord.
My point is not to mock your belief at all but to call you to apply the ruler to your tradition that is being applied to ours.

I thought I was.  What exactly offends you?
The idea that you think we have changed our teachings just because we view statements about fire as metaphorical.

Where did I say that?
That we have changed our teachings
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« Reply #1351 on: April 20, 2010, 07:30:32 PM »

So its not real fire? Then you must have changed your teaching since Jesus talked about fire. Hmmmm. I just can't pin down the EO position.  Roll Eyes

Dear Papist,

Material fire cannot burn an immaterial soul.  If a soul is being burned in purgatory/intermediate state/ etc., a non-material fire would be necessary, wouldn't it?

I'm not mocking your tradition.  Nor am I departing from the words of the Lord.
My point is not to mock your belief at all but to call you to apply the ruler to your tradition that is being applied to ours.

I thought I was.  What exactly offends you?
The idea that you think we have changed our teachings just because we view statements about fire as metaphorical.

Where did I say that?
That we have changed our teachings

No, now you are changing what you said above.  You wrote:

The idea that you think we have changed our teachings just because we view statements about fire as metaphorical.


Where did I say that?
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« Reply #1352 on: April 20, 2010, 07:57:15 PM »

Quote
The Catholic Church, instructed by the Holy Spirit and in accordance with sacred Scripture and the ancient Tradition of the Fathers, has taught in he holy Councils and most recently in this ecumenical Council that there is a purgatory and that the souls detained there are helped by the acts of intercession (suffragia) of the faithful and especially by the acceptable sacrifice of the altar.  Therefore this holy Council commands the bishops to strive diligently that the sound doctrine of purgatory, handed down by the Holy Fathers and the sacred Councils, be believed by the faithful and that it be adhered, taught and preached everywhere.

I think Orthodox would find this statement in and of itself perfectly acceptable. We agree that prayers and acts of love can comfort the dead and even help bring forgiveness to them (cf the soldiers in 2 Maccabees), and thus we also agree that the departed souls may undergo some form of purification or forgiveness. One minor aspect of the above statement that I do not understand is how the Eucharistic Sacrifice helps them.

If RC doctrine would stick to this, and not dogmatically add to or subtract from it, then I think there would be agreement.

Quote
But because of various errors, introduced by some through ignorance and by others out of malice, she says and preaches that those who after Baptism lapse into son must not be rebaptized, but obtain pardon for their sins through true penance; that if being truly repentant, they die in charity before having satisfied by worthy fruits of penance for their sins of commission and omission, their souls are cleansed after death by purgatorial and purifying penalties, as Brother John has explained to us; and that to alleviate such penalties the acts of intercession (suffragia) of the living faithful benefit them, namely the sacrifices of the Mass, prayers, alms and other works of piety which the faithful are wont to do for the other faithful according to the Church's institutions.

This statement, on the other hand, is troubling. If one truly and sincerely repents, is that person not cleansed? Why must he make satisfaction? If one has truly repented, then by definition, one will struggle mightily not to sin again. Hence, cleansing from sin comes with repentance. So why must I be cleansed if I have already truly repented? I believe we already discussed the situation of the thief on the cross earlier in this thread.
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« Reply #1353 on: April 20, 2010, 08:16:13 PM »

This statement, on the other hand, is troubling. If one truly and sincerely repents, is that person not cleansed? Why must he make satisfaction? If one has truly repented, then by definition, one will struggle mightily not to sin again. Hence, cleansing from sin comes with repentance. So why must I be cleansed if I have already truly repented? I believe we already discussed the situation of the thief on the cross earlier in this thread.

Bear with me.  Smiley

Hypothetical Situation:  Man goes to Orthodox priest and asks for confession.  Priest receives him, blesses him and then the man says:

I believe, O Lord, and I confess that thou art truly the Christ, the Son of the living God, who didst come into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief. And I believe that this is truly thine own immaculate Body, and that this is truly thine own precious Blood. Wherefore I pray thee, have mercy upon me and forgive my transgressions both voluntary and involuntary, of word and of deed, of knowledge and of ignorance; and make me worthy to partake without condemnation of thine immaculate Mysteries, unto remission of my sins and unto life everlasting. Amen. Of thy Mystic Supper, O Son of God, accept me today as a communicant; for I will not speak of thy Mystery to thine enemies, neither will I give thee a kiss as did Judas; but like the thief will I confess thee: Remember me, O Lord, in thy Kingdom. Not unto judgement nor unto condemnation be my partaking of thy Holy Mysteries, O Lord, but unto the healing of soul and body.

And then waits for absolution.....Will that Orthodox priest just grant him absolution?  What is most likely to happen?

Mary
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« Reply #1354 on: April 20, 2010, 08:42:51 PM »

This statement, on the other hand, is troubling. If one truly and sincerely repents, is that person not cleansed? Why must he make satisfaction? If one has truly repented, then by definition, one will struggle mightily not to sin again. Hence, cleansing from sin comes with repentance. So why must I be cleansed if I have already truly repented? I believe we already discussed the situation of the thief on the cross earlier in this thread.

Bear with me.  Smiley

Hypothetical Situation:  Man goes to Orthodox priest and asks for confession.  Priest receives him, blesses him and then the man says:

I believe, O Lord, and I confess that thou art truly the Christ, the Son of the living God, who didst come into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief. And I believe that this is truly thine own immaculate Body, and that this is truly thine own precious Blood. Wherefore I pray thee, have mercy upon me and forgive my transgressions both voluntary and involuntary, of word and of deed, of knowledge and of ignorance; and make me worthy to partake without condemnation of thine immaculate Mysteries, unto remission of my sins and unto life everlasting. Amen. Of thy Mystic Supper, O Son of God, accept me today as a communicant; for I will not speak of thy Mystery to thine enemies, neither will I give thee a kiss as did Judas; but like the thief will I confess thee: Remember me, O Lord, in thy Kingdom. Not unto judgement nor unto condemnation be my partaking of thy Holy Mysteries, O Lord, but unto the healing of soul and body.

And then waits for absolution.....Will that Orthodox priest just grant him absolution?  What is most likely to happen?

Mary

He comes to confession to confess his sins one by one. This is part of the process of repentence; it is an aid to repentece. So is any epitimia/penance the priest gives him afterwards. It is all about repenting and healing the sin. If the priest does give him an epitimia, and he is truly unable to carry it out (worst case scenario, he dies immediately Shocked), that does not necessarily mean he has to go through some kind of post-mortem purgation.

Repentence is a change of heart, and the fruits of repentence flow from it naturally. If they do not, I doubt it is true repentence! But the "requirement" is not the works per se, but the sincere change of heart.

Have I understood you correctly?
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« Reply #1355 on: April 20, 2010, 08:57:21 PM »


Dear Rufus and others,

One of the false underlying presumptions here must be that prayers for the dead or prayers for those undergoing purgation are in some way irrefutable.  They cannot be either resisted or denied outright.  

In other words one can pray someone out of hell or purgatory whether or not that soul is willing and THAT is simply a surrogate for the heresy of the irresistible grace that is denied by Orthodox and Catholics alike.

Christus Resurrexit, Alleluia

I can assure you that you have created a strawman.  Eastern Christians, whether Orthodox or Catholic, do NOT believe that either God or the prayers of the faithful will force a soul in Hell or a soul bound for Hell against its will.

But what is highly dubious and really must be rejected is the opposite scenario promoted by Roman Catholics that souls in Hell have had their will eternally paralysed at the moment of death and cannot make any further choices and cannot move towards acceptance of God's offer of forgiveness,

We have seen here in earlier posts that the belief in an eternal paralysis of the volitional principle of souls in Hell is not the belief of the apostolic Churches, and Rome herself came to the belief only late in her existence.




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« Reply #1356 on: April 20, 2010, 09:03:21 PM »

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Wherefore I pray thee, have mercy upon me and forgive my transgressions both voluntary and involuntary, of word and of deed, of knowledge and of ignorance; and make me worthy to partake without condemnation

He comes to confession to confess his sins one by one. This is part of the process of repentence; it is an aid to repentece. So is any epitimia/penance the priest gives him afterwards. It is all about repenting and healing the sin. If the priest does give him an epitimia, and he is truly unable to carry it out (worst case scenario, he dies immediately Shocked), that does not necessarily mean he has to go through some kind of post-mortem purgation.

Repentence is a change of heart, and the fruits of repentence flow from it naturally. If they do not, I doubt it is true repentence! But the "requirement" is not the works per se, but the sincere change of heart.

Have I understood you correctly?

You are jumping the gun a bit.  

You are right.  Sins must be confessed one by one, not only as an aid to repentance but also to be able to follow the teachings of the fathers about the purification of the memory as a necessary part of preparation for theosis.

Because getting absolution is not the ultimate goal.  We can get absolution every day but theosis comes a bit higher price to the penitent soul.

But then we have that funny list in St. John Chrysostom's prayer...."voluntary and involuntary, of word and of deed, of knowledge and of ignorance."

I have a spiritual father confessor.  To him I confess my often angry behaviors toward my mother.  He and I work for years to dig into the dung pile and root out the stink that causes me to loose my temper at the woman who bore me.  At the end, I am shriven and forgiven and I die.

Master comes to me and he says to me that I suffered a long time with wounds inflicted upon me as a child.  As an adult I was exceptionally nasty to my mother for an exceptionally long time and with great vehemence and vengance in my hidden heart.   And he tells me that he loves me dearly and understands and forgives me, but that there is still there hidden where only He can see it, shreds of those old resentments that I just never could manage to let go of.

That is what needs to be burnished away.  That is the residual that all but the truly sanctified carry to the grave and that is the kind of thing that purgation is meant to clean away.  I my case it will be the inability to really and truly, deeply and absolutely forgive and forget.

God only knows what it will be in your case, if anything at all.

May you die a saint!

Mary

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« Reply #1357 on: April 20, 2010, 09:10:55 PM »


Dear Rufus and others,

One of the false underlying presumptions here must be that prayers for the dead or prayers for those undergoing purgation are in some way irrefutable.  They cannot be either resisted or denied outright.  

In other words one can pray someone out of hell or purgatory whether or not that soul is willing and THAT is simply a surrogate for the heresy of the irresistible grace that is denied by Orthodox and Catholics alike.

Christus Resurrexit, Alleluia

I can assure you that you have created a strawman.  Eastern Christians, whether Orthodox or Catholic, do NOT believe that either God or the prayers of the faithful will force a soul in Hell or a soul bound for Hell against its will.

I can assure you that I was responding to things said HERE and not to what I know Orthodox and Catholic confessions teach formally.

So there there was no straw anything.

There was my situational response and your baseless comeback.

Mary
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« Reply #1358 on: April 20, 2010, 09:13:48 PM »

You are jumping the gun a bit.  

You are right.  Sins must be confessed one by one, not only as an aid to repentance but also to be able to follow the teachings of the fathers about the purification of the memory as a necessary part of preparation for theosis.

Because getting absolution is not the ultimate goal.  We can get absolution every day but theosis comes a bit higher price to the penitent soul.

But then we have that funny list in St. John Chrysostom's prayer...."voluntary and involuntary, of word and of deed, of knowledge and of ignorance."

I have a spiritual father confessor.  To him I confess my often angry behaviors toward my mother.  He and I work for years to dig into the dung pile and root out the stink that causes me to loose my temper at the woman who bore me.  At the end, I am shriven and forgiven and I die.

Master comes to me and he says to me that I suffered a long time with wounds inflicted upon me as a child.  As an adult I was exceptionally nasty to my mother for an exceptionally long time and with great vehemence and vengance in my hidden heart.   And he tells me that he loves me dearly and understands and forgives me, but that there is still there hidden where only He can see it, shreds of those old resentments that I just never could manage to let go of.

That is what needs to be burnished away.  That is the residual that all but the truly sanctified carry to the grave and that is the kind of thing that purgation is meant to clean away.  I my case it will be the inability to really and truly, deeply and absolutely forgive and forget.

God only knows what it will be in your case, if anything at all.

May you die a saint!

Mary

Dear Mary,

Let me give you a hypothetical, just for fun!  Wink

A man comes to see his priest for confession.  The priest blesses him, pulls out a list, reads aloud all the sins the man has (let's assume the list is accurate), assigns a penance then prays the Absolution Prayer.

Did the man make a confession?

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« Reply #1359 on: April 20, 2010, 09:19:40 PM »


I get the feeling that there are specific teachings within the RCC, and that they have changed over time, and that Pope Benedict is making further alterations to the official communication of these teachings.  Is that a fair assessment?


A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.

I continue to listen to my Church tell me what she means, Father.  For some very good and evident reasons I do not turn to Orthodoxy to learn Catholic history or doctrine.

Christus Resurrexit, Alleluia

Dear Mary,

Coming from someone who is believe is a member of the Russian Byzantine Catholic Church, your approach to this matter seems decidedly odd.

The Church to which you ought to be listening is the Russian Byzantine Catholic Church, not the Roman Catholic Church.  Pope Benedict has declared that Orthodox theology is the fulness of the faith (sans, of course, the Papacy.)

And since we are assured again and again that the Eastern Catholics hold to, not Roman, but Orthodox theology, it is to the Orthodox theology maintained by your Russian Catholic Church that you should be turning for an understanding of the matters under discussion.  But you aren't.  You are here speaking as would any representative of the Roman Catholic Church.  This is personally disappointing for me since I had hoped that with your arrival on OC.net we would at last have an articulate Eastern Catholic to learn from.
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« Reply #1360 on: April 20, 2010, 09:27:19 PM »

There is also, in popular catholicism, that the departed can pray for you if you ask them to intercede for you. (That requires a small amount of presumption - i.e. the departed in question is not in hell)

In preceding centuries prior to Vatican II there was a very strong cult of the Holy Souls whose prayers from Purgatory for those still on earth were believed to be very strong before the Lord.  These days younger Catholics would probably stare blankly at you if you used the term "Holy Souls" and ask if that was a rap band.
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« Reply #1361 on: April 20, 2010, 09:37:39 PM »

This statement, on the other hand, is troubling. If one truly and sincerely repents, is that person not cleansed? Why must he make satisfaction? If one has truly repented, then by definition, one will struggle mightily not to sin again. Hence, cleansing from sin comes with repentance. So why must I be cleansed if I have already truly repented? I believe we already discussed the situation of the thief on the cross earlier in this thread.

Bear with me.  Smiley

Hypothetical Situation:  Man goes to Orthodox priest and asks for confession.  Priest receives him, blesses him and then the man says:

I believe, O Lord, and I confess that thou art truly the Christ, the Son of the living God, who didst come into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief. And I believe that this is truly thine own immaculate Body, and that this is truly thine own precious Blood. Wherefore I pray thee, have mercy upon me and forgive my transgressions both voluntary and involuntary, of word and of deed, of knowledge and of ignorance; and make me worthy to partake without condemnation of thine immaculate Mysteries, unto remission of my sins and unto life everlasting. Amen. Of thy Mystic Supper, O Son of God, accept me today as a communicant; for I will not speak of thy Mystery to thine enemies, neither will I give thee a kiss as did Judas; but like the thief will I confess thee: Remember me, O Lord, in thy Kingdom. Not unto judgement nor unto condemnation be my partaking of thy Holy Mysteries, O Lord, but unto the healing of soul and body.

And then waits for absolution.....Will that Orthodox priest just grant him absolution?  What is most likely to happen?

Mary

I have never in my entire life imposed any sort of penitential order on anyone coming to Confession.  I have insisted on the return of stolen goods, I have insisted on the cessation of sinful sexual affairs. I have advised prayers and spiritual practices which may assist the person to fight his or her specific inclination to sin.   But I have never imposed a punitive sentence, never sort "satisfaction"... and to my knowledge neither has any priest of my acquaintance.
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« Reply #1362 on: April 20, 2010, 09:44:27 PM »

[
That is what needs to be burnished away. 


So, a post-Vatican II change from a doctrine of burning to one of burnishing.  People in Purgatory are no longer burnt but rubbed with a soft cloth!   Sorry Mary, I just couldn't resist - blame the meds!   laugh
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« Reply #1363 on: April 20, 2010, 09:47:49 PM »


Dear Rufus and others,

One of the false underlying presumptions here must be that prayers for the dead or prayers for those undergoing purgation are in some way irrefutable.  They cannot be either resisted or denied outright. 

In other words one can pray someone out of hell or purgatory whether or not that soul is willing and THAT is simply a surrogate for the heresy of the irresistible grace that is denied by Orthodox and Catholics alike.

Christus Resurrexit, Alleluia

I can assure you that you have created a strawman.  Eastern Christians, whether Orthodox or Catholic, do NOT believe that either God or the prayers of the faithful will force a soul in Hell or a soul bound for Hell against its will.

I can assure you that I was responding to things said HERE and not to what I know Orthodox and Catholic confessions teach formally.

I have not seen one Orthodox here claim that salvation can be forced on a soul in Hell against its will.  Would you please reference what message/s you are referring to.
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« Reply #1364 on: April 20, 2010, 09:51:25 PM »

Quote
God only knows what it will be in your case, if anything at all.

I assure you, it will be quite a many things.

Quote
May you die a saint!

Thank you, I try. Smiley
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« Reply #1365 on: April 20, 2010, 11:31:07 PM »

Quote
Wherefore I pray thee, have mercy upon me and forgive my transgressions both voluntary and involuntary, of word and of deed, of knowledge and of ignorance; and make me worthy to partake without condemnation

He comes to confession to confess his sins one by one. This is part of the process of repentence; it is an aid to repentece. So is any epitimia/penance the priest gives him afterwards. It is all about repenting and healing the sin. If the priest does give him an epitimia, and he is truly unable to carry it out (worst case scenario, he dies immediately Shocked), that does not necessarily mean he has to go through some kind of post-mortem purgation.

Repentence is a change of heart, and the fruits of repentence flow from it naturally. If they do not, I doubt it is true repentence! But the "requirement" is not the works per se, but the sincere change of heart.

Have I understood you correctly?

You are jumping the gun a bit. 

You are right.  Sins must be confessed one by one, not only as an aid to repentance but also to be able to follow the teachings of the fathers about the purification of the memory as a necessary part of preparation for theosis.

Because getting absolution is not the ultimate goal.  We can get absolution every day but theosis comes a bit higher price to the penitent soul.

But then we have that funny list in St. John Chrysostom's prayer...."voluntary and involuntary, of word and of deed, of knowledge and of ignorance."

I have a spiritual father confessor.  To him I confess my often angry behaviors toward my mother.  He and I work for years to dig into the dung pile and root out the stink that causes me to loose my temper at the woman who bore me.  At the end, I am shriven and forgiven and I die.

Master comes to me and he says to me that I suffered a long time with wounds inflicted upon me as a child.  As an adult I was exceptionally nasty to my mother for an exceptionally long time and with great vehemence and vengance in my hidden heart.   And he tells me that he loves me dearly and understands and forgives me, but that there is still there hidden where only He can see it, shreds of those old resentments that I just never could manage to let go of.

That is what needs to be burnished away.  That is the residual that all but the truly sanctified carry to the grave and that is the kind of thing that purgation is meant to clean away.  I my case it will be the inability to really and truly, deeply and absolutely forgive and forget.

God only knows what it will be in your case, if anything at all.

May you die a saint!

Mary



Not to poke at the issue, but something seems odd to me. You could not completely heal the sin in the body, but you will be able, with the help of God's grace, to heal it when separated from the body? Or is it simply a matter of not having gotten around to it during your lifetime?

Clearly we must consider repentence and actually overcoming the sin in its entirety to be two separate things, one of which follows naturally from the other. If one repents but has failed to completely overcome in the body, then I raise no objection to the continuing sactification of the soul while separated from the body as it continues its ascetic struggle in cooperation with God's grace. But if there is any sin from which one found themselves unable to repent in this life, then we agree that one will not repent while separated from the body, barring a movement of the free will, which could be assisted by God's grace and our prayers. Do we agree on all this?

Another interesting question: is said process of sanctification properly described by images of pain and fire? If so, how would the purgatorial fire be distinguishable from the fires of eternal torment? In the Orthodox Church, we teach that the flame experienced in the intermediate state is the flame of one's own conscience, aware of its true nature. Surely being tormented by one's own conscience does not contribute to overcoming sin. Therefore, I do not see how the flames of the unrepentant can be identified with God’s sanctifying grace, which acts on those who have repented, but not fully overcome their sin. In Scripture and, as far as my limited knowledge goes, in the Fathers, torment is always assigned to the unrepentant. Purgation, yes, but I do not see any references to torment or fire associated with the continued healing of the repentant soul after death. If there is struggle for the departed souls, it is illogical to believe that their struggle is any more or less difficult or fiery than our struggle in the body.

The problem is, doesn’t Latin doctrine teach that the souls in Purgatory experience a fire so intense that it is unimaginable for us in this life? Does this not imply that Purgatorial fire is not simply a continuation of the sanctification in this life—that it is something different altogether?

Where does this teaching come from, and how do you reason this?
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« Reply #1366 on: April 20, 2010, 11:33:28 PM »


You have the upper hand among unsympathetic Orthodox, but that does not make you right.

Christ is Risen, Alleluia
 
I hope that you have the same amount of freedom here to express yourself as I do.  I desire to hear your views and to listen to your words.  You have a breadth of theological studies which underpins what you say.
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« Reply #1367 on: April 21, 2010, 12:22:05 AM »

So its not real fire? Then you must have changed your teaching since Jesus talked about fire. Hmmmm. I just can't pin down the EO position.  Roll Eyes

Dear Papist,

Material fire cannot burn an immaterial soul.  If a soul is being burned in purgatory/intermediate state/ etc., a non-material fire would be necessary, wouldn't it?

I'm not mocking your tradition.  Nor am I departing from the words of the Lord.
My point is not to mock your belief at all but to call you to apply the ruler to your tradition that is being applied to ours.

I thought I was.  What exactly offends you?
The idea that you think we have changed our teachings just because we view statements about fire as metaphorical.

Where did I say that?
That we have changed our teachings

No, now you are changing what you said above.  You wrote:

The idea that you think we have changed our teachings just because we view statements about fire as metaphorical.


Where did I say that?

I was being sarcastic. I am sorry that that doesn't come across in print.
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« Reply #1368 on: April 21, 2010, 12:57:58 AM »


I get the feeling that there are specific teachings within the RCC, and that they have changed over time, and that Pope Benedict is making further alterations to the official communication of these teachings.  Is that a fair assessment?


A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.

I continue to listen to my Church tell me what she means, Father.  For some very good and evident reasons I do not turn to Orthodoxy to learn Catholic history or doctrine.

Christus Resurrexit, Alleluia

Dear Mary,

Coming from someone who is believe is a member of the Russian Byzantine Catholic Church, your approach to this matter seems decidedly odd.

All of this nonsense does nothing but cover for the fact that you all asked for evidence of fact that there's been no change in Catholic teaching.

I gave you that evidence and your game's really quite up.

So I don't think I need say more since it only sets me up to be the butt of your jokes.  You and your con-frere.

Thanks for the fun but till I find room to offer more light on the subject, I've got nothing else to say.

Mary
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« Reply #1369 on: April 21, 2010, 01:10:44 AM »

Quote
Wherefore I pray thee, have mercy upon me and forgive my transgressions both voluntary and involuntary, of word and of deed, of knowledge and of ignorance; and make me worthy to partake without condemnation

He comes to confession to confess his sins one by one. This is part of the process of repentence; it is an aid to repentece. So is any epitimia/penance the priest gives him afterwards. It is all about repenting and healing the sin. If the priest does give him an epitimia, and he is truly unable to carry it out (worst case scenario, he dies immediately Shocked), that does not necessarily mean he has to go through some kind of post-mortem purgation.

Repentence is a change of heart, and the fruits of repentence flow from it naturally. If they do not, I doubt it is true repentence! But the "requirement" is not the works per se, but the sincere change of heart.

Have I understood you correctly?

You are jumping the gun a bit. 

You are right.  Sins must be confessed one by one, not only as an aid to repentance but also to be able to follow the teachings of the fathers about the purification of the memory as a necessary part of preparation for theosis.

Because getting absolution is not the ultimate goal.  We can get absolution every day but theosis comes a bit higher price to the penitent soul.

But then we have that funny list in St. John Chrysostom's prayer...."voluntary and involuntary, of word and of deed, of knowledge and of ignorance."

I have a spiritual father confessor.  To him I confess my often angry behaviors toward my mother.  He and I work for years to dig into the dung pile and root out the stink that causes me to loose my temper at the woman who bore me.  At the end, I am shriven and forgiven and I die.

Master comes to me and he says to me that I suffered a long time with wounds inflicted upon me as a child.  As an adult I was exceptionally nasty to my mother for an exceptionally long time and with great vehemence and vengance in my hidden heart.   And he tells me that he loves me dearly and understands and forgives me, but that there is still there hidden where only He can see it, shreds of those old resentments that I just never could manage to let go of.

That is what needs to be burnished away.  That is the residual that all but the truly sanctified carry to the grave and that is the kind of thing that purgation is meant to clean away.  I my case it will be the inability to really and truly, deeply and absolutely forgive and forget.

God only knows what it will be in your case, if anything at all.

May you die a saint!

Mary



Not to poke at the issue, but something seems odd to me. You could not completely heal the sin in the body, but you will be able, with the help of God's grace, to heal it when separated from the body? Or is it simply a matter of not having gotten around to it during your lifetime?

Clearly we must consider repentence and actually overcoming the sin in its entirety to be two separate things, one of which follows naturally from the other. If one repents but has failed to completely overcome in the body, then I raise no objection to the continuing sactification of the soul while separated from the body as it continues its ascetic struggle in cooperation with God's grace. But if there is any sin from which one found themselves unable to repent in this life, then we agree that one will not repent while separated from the body, barring a movement of the free will, which could be assisted by God's grace and our prayers. Do we agree on all this?

Another interesting question: is said process of sanctification properly described by images of pain and fire? If so, how would the purgatorial fire be distinguishable from the fires of eternal torment? In the Orthodox Church, we teach that the flame experienced in the intermediate state is the flame of one's own conscience, aware of its true nature. Surely being tormented by one's own conscience does not contribute to overcoming sin. Therefore, I do not see how the flames of the unrepentant can be identified with God’s sanctifying grace, which acts on those who have repented, but not fully overcome their sin. In Scripture and, as far as my limited knowledge goes, in the Fathers, torment is always assigned to the unrepentant. Purgation, yes, but I do not see any references to torment or fire associated with the continued healing of the repentant soul after death. If there is struggle for the departed souls, it is illogical to believe that their struggle is any more or less difficult or fiery than our struggle in the body.

The problem is, doesn’t Latin doctrine teach that the souls in Purgatory experience a fire so intense that it is unimaginable for us in this life? Does this not imply that Purgatorial fire is not simply a continuation of the sanctification in this life—that it is something different altogether?

Where does this teaching come from, and how do you reason this?


Here you have gone so far beyond any formal teaching, and are now so deeply into the realm of speculation that its far beyond my meager resources to follow.  Also given the mocking tone of the clergy in this discussion, I am not inclined to go beyond simply offering the conciliar texts.  Anything else I would say would just be poked and picked at.

We all know Catholics can have no real experience of the spiritual life so I think I've offered all that I can here.

Thanks for the interesting discussion.

Mary
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« Reply #1370 on: April 21, 2010, 01:41:29 AM »

Thanks for the fun but till I find room to offer more light on the subject, I've got nothing else to say.


My feeling is that you may be cutting out of this discusion because I asked you for the teaching of the Russian Greek Catholic Church on Purgatory and you cannot provide an answer.  Pity, since I would have truly liked to learn.

Are there other Eastern Catholics on the board who would like to contribute?  My assumption is that they hold to an Orthodox teaching but maybe some Eastern Catholic Churches have taken Rome's teaching on board?
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« Reply #1371 on: April 21, 2010, 06:26:59 AM »


I thought I was.  What exactly offends you?
The idea that you think we have changed our teachings just because we view statements about fire as metaphorical.


The idea that the fire of Purgatory is metaphorical is a minority one which has lately been permitted as a theological opinion, but it was not the majority teaching and it was not the traditional teaching.

This is the teaching of the Catholic Encyclopedia, guaranteed by a Nihil Obstat and an Imprimatur to be trustworthy Catholic teaching:

The poena sensus, or pain of sense, consists in the torment of fire so frequently mentioned
in the Holy Bible. According to the greater number of theologians the term fire denotes
a material fire, and so a real fire. We hold to this teaching as absolutely true and correct.


However, we must not forget two things: from Catharinus (d. 1553) to our times there have
never been wanting theologians who interpret the Scriptural term fire metaphorically, as
denoting an incorporeal fire; and secondly, thus far the Church has not censured their opinion.

Some few of the Fathers also thought of a metaphorical explanation. Nevertheless,
Scripture and tradition speak again and again of the fire of hell, and there is
no sufficient reason for taking the term as a mere metaphor.


http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07207a.htm#VI

-oOo-

And from Wikipedia - perhaps generally less reliable than the Encyclopedia but in this instance in synch with it:

"Most theologians of the past have held that the fire is in some sense a material fire,
though of a nature different from ordinary fire, but the opinion of other theologians
who interpret the Scriptural term "fire" metaphorically has not been condemned
by the Church[37] and may now be the more common view."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purgatory#Pain_and_fire
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« Reply #1372 on: April 21, 2010, 06:38:23 AM »


I thought I was.  What exactly offends you?
The idea that you think we have changed our teachings just because we view statements about fire as metaphorical.


The idea that the fire of Purgatory is metaphorical is a minority one which has lately been permitted as a theological opinion, but it was not the majority teaching and it was not the traditional teaching.

This is the teaching of the Catholic Encyclopedia, guaranteed by a Nihil Obstat and an Imprimatur to be trustworthy Catholic teaching:

The poena sensus, or pain of sense, consists in the torment of fire so frequently mentioned
in the Holy Bible. According to the greater number of theologians the term fire denotes
a material fire, and so a real fire. We hold to this teaching as absolutely true and correct.


However, we must not forget two things: from Catharinus (d. 1553) to our times there have
never been wanting theologians who interpret the Scriptural term fire metaphorically, as
denoting an incorporeal fire; and secondly, thus far the Church has not censured their opinion.

Some few of the Fathers also thought of a metaphorical explanation. Nevertheless,
Scripture and tradition speak again and again of the fire of hell, and there is
no sufficient reason for taking the term as a mere metaphor.


http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07207a.htm#VI

-oOo-

And from Wikipedia - perhaps generally less reliable than the Encyclopedia but in this instance in synch with it:

"Most theologians of the past have held that the fire is in some sense a material fire,
though of a nature different from ordinary fire, but the opinion of other theologians
who interpret the Scriptural term "fire" metaphorically has not been condemned
by the Church[37] and may now be the more common view."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purgatory#Pain_and_fire
Thank you for demonstrating that the Catholic Church has never had an official teaching on the matter of material vs. metaphorical fire.
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« Reply #1373 on: April 21, 2010, 07:43:08 AM »


Thank you for demonstrating that the Catholic Church has never had an official teaching on the matter of material vs. metaphorical fire.
Christ is Risen!

Yes, Papist, you have a point, and one we as Orthodox often forget.

1.  The Orthodox receive their faith throught the transmission of the sacred Tradition which takes a variety of forms.   Bishops, priests and laity alike are all guardians of the Traditon and must be obedient to it.

2.  Catholics on the other hand are expected to be submissive to the Magisterium and to its official Magisterial teachings.  Whatever of their traditon has not been codified into a Magisterial teaching is really nothing more than what the Orthodox might call theologoumena.

I have learnt this major difference between our Churches in the way we approach the faith the hard way.   I instinctively fall into the error of thinking that Catholics are subject to Tradition and I have often written of their traditional beliefs as if they are a certain part of their faith.  In the absence of a magisterial teaching they are not.  They are only an interim belief/opinion on which you cannot place much reliance.

I think I have written about this here previously?  Teachings which have been taught and believed for centuries as part of Tradition within Catholicism may be annulled and superseded by subsequent teachings and definitions.

The amazingly superficial way in which the traditional teaching of purgatory as a place and a state was changed by Pope John Paul in a couple of lunchtime homilies is a case in point.   In a few minutes while people were munching on their sandwiches the Pope did away with the traditional teaching.  The Catholic world applauds this.

But wait a moment, it was merely an opinion of Pope John Paul.  There was no official papal proclamation, no Council, no consultation with the Magisterium, no Magisterial pronouncement.  There is no reason at all why the next generation of Catholics cannot revert to the older teaching.  
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« Reply #1374 on: April 21, 2010, 07:55:19 AM »


"Most theologians of the past have held that the fire is in some sense a material fire,
though of a nature different from ordinary fire, but the opinion of other theologians
who interpret the Scriptural term "fire" metaphorically has not been condemned
by the Church[37] and may now be the more common view."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purgatory#Pain_and_fire

This is junk theology Father.  Orthdoox faitful roar to the heavens when a Catholic points to theoria and claims it as Orthodox teaching.  I am a pre-Vatican II baby and purgation was not presented to me as it was to you in Ireland. 

So you may play well in Peoria but I am not impressed here.

When you can separate formal teaching from theoria then maybe we can talk about other kinds of things.

M.
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« Reply #1375 on: April 21, 2010, 07:56:13 AM »


Thank you for demonstrating that the Catholic Church has never had an official teaching on the matter of material vs. metaphorical fire.


I am sure that all the Catholics on this Forum who contend so well for their faith are aware of the Jesuit priest Fr Hardon (recently deceased and already on track for beatification.)  Fr Hardon has been one of the pre-eminent apologists of the Catholic Faith over the last 40 years.  His works are everywhere, on EWTN, etc., etc.  Fr Hardon served as a consultant for the drafting of the Catechism of the Catholic Church promulgated by Pope John Paul II in 1992.

He flatly contradicts what you are saying....

"Writers in the Latin tradition are quite unanimous that the fire of purgatory is real and not metaphorical. They argue from the common teaching of the Latin Fathers, of some Greek Fathers, and of certain papal statements like that of Pope Innocent IV, who spoke of “a transitory fire” (DB 456)."

"The Doctrine of Purgatory"
by Fr. John A. Hardon, S.J.
http://www.therealpresence.org/archives/Eschatology/Eschatology_006.htm
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« Reply #1376 on: April 21, 2010, 07:58:00 AM »


Thank you for demonstrating that the Catholic Church has never had an official teaching on the matter of material vs. metaphorical fire.
Christ is Risen!

Yes, Papist, you have a point, and one we as Orthodox often forget.

1.  The Orthodox receive their faith throught the transmission of the sacred Tradition which takes a variety of forms.   Bishops, priests and laity alike are all guardians of the Traditon and must be obedient to it.

2.  Catholics on the other hand are expected to be submissive to the Magisterium and to its official Magisterial teachings.  Whatever of their traditon has not been codified into a Magisterial teaching is really nothing more than what the Orthodox might call theologoumena.

To a well formed Catholic conscience, the so-called Magisterium IS the teaching voice of Scripture and Tradition.

At least that is how Orthodox hierarchs understand it when they come together with Catholic hierarchs to discuss whatever it is that they are discussing that day.

Its only out here that people seem to define as they please with no eye to reality.

Mary
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« Reply #1377 on: April 21, 2010, 08:06:11 AM »


To a well formed Catholic conscience, the so-called Magisterium IS the teaching voice of Scripture and Tradition.

At least that is how Orthodox hierarchs understand it when they come together with Catholic hierarchs to discuss whatever it is that they are discussing that day.

Its only out here that people seem to define as they please with no eye to reality.

Let us look at reality.

Why did the Vatican not send members of the Magisterium to discuss with the Orthodox at Ravenna?

The Vatican has refused to accept the Ravenna Document as anything more than the opinions of some Catholic bishops.  It has been rejected because sections of it are contrary to Catholic teaching on ecclesiology.

So there is no guarantee that at Catholic-Orthodox meetings the Orthodox hierarchs are in contact with trustworthy members of the Catholic Magisterium.
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« Reply #1378 on: April 21, 2010, 08:54:56 AM »


To a well formed Catholic conscience, the so-called Magisterium IS the teaching voice of Scripture and Tradition.

At least that is how Orthodox hierarchs understand it when they come together with Catholic hierarchs to discuss whatever it is that they are discussing that day.

Its only out here that people seem to define as they please with no eye to reality.

Let us look at reality.

Why did the Vatican not send members of the Magisterium to discuss with the Orthodox at Ravenna?

The Vatican has refused to accept the Ravenna Document as anything more than the opinions of some Catholic bishops.  It has been rejected because sections of it are contrary to Catholic teaching on ecclesiology.

So there is no guarantee that at Catholic-Orthodox meetings the Orthodox hierarchs are in contact with trustworthy members of the Catholic Magisterium.

Why don't you stay on topic?  This is nothing more than a WAG of the worst kind.  The Vatican will do nothing of an official nature till Orthodoxy settles down internally...Now THAT is a topic...but not here.

M.
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« Reply #1379 on: April 21, 2010, 08:58:00 AM »


Thank you for demonstrating that the Catholic Church has never had an official teaching on the matter of material vs. metaphorical fire.


I am sure that all the Catholics on this Forum who contend so well for their faith are aware of the Jesuit priest Fr Hardon (recently deceased and already on track for beatification.)  Fr Hardon has been one of the pre-eminent apologists of the Catholic Faith over the last 40 years.  His works are everywhere, on EWTN, etc., etc.  Fr Hardon served as a consultant for the drafting of the Catechism of the Catholic Church promulgated by Pope John Paul II in 1992.

He flatly contradicts what you are saying....

"Writers in the Latin tradition are quite unanimous that the fire of purgatory is real and not metaphorical. They argue from the common teaching of the Latin Fathers, of some Greek Fathers, and of certain papal statements like that of Pope Innocent IV, who spoke of “a transitory fire” (DB 456)."

"The Doctrine of Purgatory"
by Fr. John A. Hardon, S.J.
http://www.therealpresence.org/archives/Eschatology/Eschatology_006.htm

This ain't gonna wash either.  I knew Father Hardon and he was well aware of the difference between "real" and "literal."  

There are some reasonably intelligent Catholics, Father with real prayer lives who practice fasting and alms giving and other works of piety.  And they know that the Catholic Church in reality is a far cry from the penal institution that you and some other Orthodox try to make them out to be...without reprieve.

That's a fact.

M.
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« Reply #1380 on: April 21, 2010, 09:52:56 AM »


To a well formed Catholic conscience, the so-called Magisterium IS the teaching voice of Scripture and Tradition.

At least that is how Orthodox hierarchs understand it when they come together with Catholic hierarchs to discuss whatever it is that they are discussing that day.

Its only out here that people seem to define as they please with no eye to reality.

Let us look at reality.

Why did the Vatican not send members of the Magisterium to discuss with the Orthodox at Ravenna?

The Vatican has refused to accept the Ravenna Document as anything more than the opinions of some Catholic bishops.  It has been rejected because sections of it are contrary to Catholic teaching on ecclesiology.

So there is no guarantee that at Catholic-Orthodox meetings the Orthodox hierarchs are in contact with trustworthy members of the Catholic Magisterium.

Why don't you stay on topic?  This is nothing more than a WAG of the worst kind.  The Vatican will do nothing of an official nature till Orthodoxy settles down internally...Now THAT is a topic...but not here.

I was on topic.  I was replying to your sentence above which I have reddened.
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« Reply #1381 on: April 21, 2010, 10:01:40 AM »


The Vatican will do nothing of an official nature till Orthodoxy settles down internally...Now THAT is a topic...but not here.

Christ is Risen!
Ta Criost eirithe!

 
Orthodoxy will never settle into a Roman Catholic paradigm of "Church"  - we look at the example of the Eastern Catholic Churches which are subjugated to Rome with the minor status of autonomous Churches.  Only Rome holds the status of an autocephalous Church.  That is not our way.  We reject it. We are quintessentially conciliar.

Saint Justin Popovich of Serbia:

"...the Orthodox Church, in its nature and its dogmatically unchanging
constitution is episcopal and centered in the bishops. For the bishop and
the faithful gathered around him are the expression and
manifestation of the Church as the Body of Christ, especially in the Holy
Liturgy; the Church is Apostolic and Catholic only by virtue of its bishops,
insofar as they are the heads of true ecclesiastical units, the dioceses.


"At the same time, the other, historically later and variable forms of
church organization of the Orthodox Church: the metropolias, archdioceses,
patriarchates, pentarchies, autocephalies, autonomies, etc., however many
there may be or shall be, cannot have and do not have a determining and
decisive significance in the conciliar system of the Orthodox Church.
Furthermore, they may constitute an obstacle in the correct functioning of
the conciliary principle if they obstruct and reject the episcopal character
and structure of the Church and of the Churches.


"Here, undoubtedly, is to be found the primary difference between Orthodox
and Papal ecclesiology."

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« Reply #1382 on: April 21, 2010, 10:07:06 AM »

Deleted post

Thanks for your post.  And thanks for deleting it - both the post and the deletion are a great example of charity.

I've had a soft spot for you in my heart ever since we were on CAF together and then you were nice enough to write on OC.net with reference to your conversion:  "Fr Ambrose was a pillar in defending the true faith."  Words like that mean a lot to an old curmudgeon like me.
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« Reply #1383 on: April 21, 2010, 10:16:09 AM »

My feeling is that you may be cutting out of this discusion because I asked you for the teaching of the Russian Greek Catholic Church on Purgatory and you cannot provide an answer.  Pity, since I would have truly liked to learn.

Are there other Eastern Catholics on the board who would like to contribute?  My assumption is that they hold to an Orthodox teaching but maybe some Eastern Catholic Churches have taken Rome's teaching on board?

I will chime in--for what it's worth.  Before my conversion to Holy Orthodoxy, I was in the Russian Byzantine Catholic Church for about eight years (after more than 38 years as a RC).  More than one clergy and/or monastic said things like this to me.

"We are under the Pope, but not really".

"We have a different understanding of purgatory".

"We do not say the Filioque".

"We do not say [Immaculate Conception] we say [The Conception of Our Most Holy Mother of God by St Anna]".
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« Reply #1384 on: April 21, 2010, 10:26:39 AM »

Deleted post

Thanks for your post.  And thanks for deleting it - both the post and the deletion are a great example of charity.

I've had a soft spot for you in my heart ever since we were on CAF together and then you were nice enough to write on OC.net with reference to your conversion:  "Fr Ambrose was a pillar in defending the true faith."  Words like that mean a lot to an old curmudgeon like me.

Christ is Risen!

Bless Father,

My journey has not been without bumps in the road.  Today, I have a wonderful Spiritual Father (Greek and very traditional).  I was Chrismated in the OCA. I attend a very conservative Antiochian Church.  I have a special place in my heart for ROCOR and I pilgrimage to Jordanville almost every year.  Today, the bumps in the road have lessened at times and I am sure that your prayers (eminating all the way from New Zealand) have assisted me considerably.  I have referred to you affectionately many time to clergy and friends alike.  You have been sort of like an internet Spiritual Father to me.  I do not know how to thank you enough---and my prayers will always be with you.

Kissing your right hand,
Mickey
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« Reply #1385 on: April 21, 2010, 10:33:47 AM »

My feeling is that you may be cutting out of this discusion because I asked you for the teaching of the Russian Greek Catholic Church on Purgatory and you cannot provide an answer.  Pity, since I would have truly liked to learn.

Are there other Eastern Catholics on the board who would like to contribute?  My assumption is that they hold to an Orthodox teaching but maybe some Eastern Catholic Churches have taken Rome's teaching on board?

I will chime in--for what it's worth.  Before my conversion to Holy Orthodoxy, I was in the Russian Byzantine Catholic Church for about eight years (after more than 38 years as a RC).  More than one clergy and/or monastic said things like this to me.

"We are under the Pope, but not really".

"We have a different understanding of purgatory".

"We do not say the Filioque".

"We do not say [Immaculate Conception] we say [The Conception of Our Most Holy Mother of God by St Anna]".

I've heard my Byzantine Catholic friends say the first three, but I never heard the fourth.

Do you really mean 'Russian Byzantine Catholic' or are you referring to the Pittsburgh Eparchy of the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church? I didn't think there were more than a handful of actual 'Russian Byzantine Catholic' parishes  around.
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« Reply #1386 on: April 21, 2010, 10:39:12 AM »


I've heard my Byzantine Catholic friends say the first three, but I never heard the fourth.

Do you really mean 'Russian Byzantine Catholic' or are you referring to the Pittsburgh Eparchy of the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church? I didn't think there were more than a handful of actual 'Russian Byzantine Catholic' parishes  around.

Yes...sorry...I mean Ruthenian.  But someone once told me that there is no such word as Ruthenian--so I do not use it much anymore.   Huh

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« Reply #1387 on: April 21, 2010, 10:42:10 AM »


I've heard my Byzantine Catholic friends say the first three, but I never heard the fourth.

Do you really mean 'Russian Byzantine Catholic' or are you referring to the Pittsburgh Eparchy of the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church? I didn't think there were more than a handful of actual 'Russian Byzantine Catholic' parishes  around.

Yes...sorry...I mean Ruthenian.  But someone once told me that there is no such word as Ruthenian--so I do not use it much anymore.   Huh



It is the word that the Latin Church uses to describe the peoples of Carpatho-Rus known in this country as Rusyns or Carpatho-Russians. People don't self-identify with the word, but I used it so as to distinguish between the Pittsburgh Eparchy (which is the Greek Catholic 'counterpart' (I hate that word...) to ACROD in the United States) and the actual, but tiny Russian BC Church. I hope that clears up your confusion.
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« Reply #1388 on: April 21, 2010, 10:46:49 AM »

It is the word that the Latin Church uses to describe the peoples of Carpatho-Rus known in this country as Rusyns or Carpatho-Russians. People don't self-identify with the word, but I used it so as to distinguish between the Pittsburgh Eparchy (which is the Greek Catholic 'counterpart' (I hate that word...) to ACROD in the United States) and the actual, but tiny Russian BC Church. I hope that clears up your confusion.

Yes it does. Thank you.  Smiley
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« Reply #1389 on: April 21, 2010, 11:13:02 AM »


I've heard my Byzantine Catholic friends say the first three, but I never heard the fourth.

Do you really mean 'Russian Byzantine Catholic' or are you referring to the Pittsburgh Eparchy of the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church? I didn't think there were more than a handful of actual 'Russian Byzantine Catholic' parishes  around.

Yes...sorry...I mean Ruthenian.  But someone once told me that there is no such word as Ruthenian--so I do not use it much anymore.   Huh



It is the word that the Latin Church uses to describe the peoples of Carpatho-Rus known in this country as Rusyns or Carpatho-Russians. People don't self-identify with the word, but I used it so as to distinguish between the Pittsburgh Eparchy (which is the Greek Catholic 'counterpart' (I hate that word...) to ACROD in the United States) and the actual, but tiny Russian BC Church. I hope that clears up your confusion.

I don't know about that.  There's bunches of folk in that Eparchial Church who refer to themselves to me as Hunkies or Ruthenians and they are not Lemko...so ..go figure.

Mary
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« Reply #1390 on: April 21, 2010, 11:21:03 AM »

I don't know about that.  There's bunches of folk in that Eparchial Church who refer to themselves to me as Hunkies or Ruthenians and they are not Lemko...so ..go figure.

Would this be a proper explanation?
http://www.halgal.com/ruthenian.html

Oops! We are way off topic.  Embarrassed
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FatherGiryus
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« Reply #1391 on: April 21, 2010, 11:35:01 AM »

You are jumping the gun a bit.  

You are right.  Sins must be confessed one by one, not only as an aid to repentance but also to be able to follow the teachings of the fathers about the purification of the memory as a necessary part of preparation for theosis.

Because getting absolution is not the ultimate goal.  We can get absolution every day but theosis comes a bit higher price to the penitent soul.

But then we have that funny list in St. John Chrysostom's prayer...."voluntary and involuntary, of word and of deed, of knowledge and of ignorance."

I have a spiritual father confessor.  To him I confess my often angry behaviors toward my mother.  He and I work for years to dig into the dung pile and root out the stink that causes me to loose my temper at the woman who bore me.  At the end, I am shriven and forgiven and I die.

Master comes to me and he says to me that I suffered a long time with wounds inflicted upon me as a child.  As an adult I was exceptionally nasty to my mother for an exceptionally long time and with great vehemence and vengance in my hidden heart.   And he tells me that he loves me dearly and understands and forgives me, but that there is still there hidden where only He can see it, shreds of those old resentments that I just never could manage to let go of.

That is what needs to be burnished away.  That is the residual that all but the truly sanctified carry to the grave and that is the kind of thing that purgation is meant to clean away.  I my case it will be the inability to really and truly, deeply and absolutely forgive and forget.

God only knows what it will be in your case, if anything at all.

May you die a saint!

Mary

Dear Mary,

Let me give you a hypothetical, just for fun!  Wink

A man comes to see his priest for confession.  The priest blesses him, pulls out a list, reads aloud all the sins the man has (let's assume the list is accurate), assigns a penance then prays the Absolution Prayer.

Did the man make a confession?



Dear Mary,

I trust you have not forgotten my question in all the other wrangling around here, have you?
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« Reply #1392 on: April 21, 2010, 04:43:47 PM »

I don't know about that.  There's bunches of folk in that Eparchial Church who refer to themselves to me as Hunkies or Ruthenians and they are not Lemko...so ..go figure.

Would this be a proper explanation?
http://www.halgal.com/ruthenian.html

Oops! We are way off topic.  Embarrassed

As long as you read all the way down past the Ukrainian connection.  Some folks don't much care any more, some are still pretty sensitive to who is where.

M.
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elijahmaria
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« Reply #1393 on: April 21, 2010, 04:47:54 PM »


Let me give you a hypothetical, just for fun!  Wink

A man comes to see his priest for confession.  The priest blesses him, pulls out a list, reads aloud all the sins the man has (let's assume the list is accurate), assigns a penance then prays the Absolution Prayer.

Did the man make a confession?

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Father, when you find it in your heart to stop mocking,  then I will be happy to talk to you.  Till then, I won't be paying much attention.  I've been at this kind of discussion for a long time and I am not interested in wasting my breath.  Thanks for thinkin' of me though.... angel

Mary
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« Reply #1394 on: April 21, 2010, 05:13:34 PM »


Let me give you a hypothetical, just for fun!  Wink

A man comes to see his priest for confession.  The priest blesses him, pulls out a list, reads aloud all the sins the man has (let's assume the list is accurate), assigns a penance then prays the Absolution Prayer.

Did the man make a confession?

[/font][/size]

Father, when you find it in your heart to stop mocking,  then I will be happy to talk to you.  Till then, I won't be paying much attention.  I've been at this kind of discussion for a long time and I am not interested in wasting my breath.  Thanks for thinkin' of me though.... angel

Mary

How am I mocking?  I'm trying to make a point in a manner you find agreeable.

You challenged with a hypothetical, now here is another.  Smiley

Though you are clearly a 'battle-hardened old timer' perhaps you can extend a bit of charity. Wink

After all, you must admit that I have not been engaging in any name-calling.  I am interested in learning just as much as you are.
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