OrthodoxChristianity.net
October 25, 2014, 05:16:40 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 »   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Indulgences, Temporal Punishment, Purgatory, etc  (Read 179319 times) Average Rating: 5
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,266


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #135 on: February 09, 2009, 05:38:03 PM »

If there were no such thing as sin, there would be no need for indulgences.

There is no need for indulgences. Period.
I understand your position. I am just explaining the Catholic one.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #136 on: February 09, 2009, 05:40:32 PM »

If there were no such thing as sin, there would be no need for indulgences.

There is no need for indulgences. Period.
I understand your position. I am just explaining the Catholic one.

I don't think you are explaining the Catholic point of view, because if you were, then the Catholic Church teaches that sins cannot be forgiven without Indulgences, and surely you are not suggesting such a thing is the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church.
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,266


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #137 on: February 09, 2009, 05:43:16 PM »

If there were no such thing as sin, there would be no need for indulgences.

There is no need for indulgences. Period.
I understand your position. I am just explaining the Catholic one.

I don't think you are explaining the Catholic point of view, because if you were, then the Catholic Church teaches that sins cannot be forgiven without Indulgences, and surely you are not suggesting such a thing is the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church.
I was suggesting no such thing and you know it but I know where arguements with you lead based on past exerpience and through observing your interactions with Fr. Ambrose, so I have no interest in continuing this discussion with you.
Now I am asking you a question as a moderator? Is there a way I can make it so that I don't see your posts so that I won't be drawn into the anger and frustation that leads to me being warned or moderated?
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #138 on: February 09, 2009, 05:48:18 PM »

I was suggesting no such thing and you know it
Then why did you say:
If there were no such thing as sin, there would be no need for indulgences.
?
but I know where arguements with you lead based on past exerpience and through observing your interactions with Fr. Ambrose,
Yep. To finding the truth about claims and matters.

so I have no interest in continuing this discussion with you.
OK then. Don't.

Now I am asking you a question as a moderator? Is there a way I can make it so that I don't see your posts so that I won't be drawn into the anger and frustation that leads to me being warned or moderated?
I'm afraid not. You just have to ignore me.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2009, 05:49:00 PM by ozgeorge » Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
Entscheidungsproblem
Formerly Friul & Nebelpfade
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Machine God
Posts: 4,495



WWW
« Reply #139 on: February 09, 2009, 05:55:50 PM »

Since I am sure this thread will head down the path anyways:

Indulgences... In the West.
Indulgences, Temporal Punishment, Purgatory, etc

These are both threads in which one can debate and discuss the practice of indulgences, rather than the RCC's push to bring them back into the mainstream (this thread).
Logged

As a result of a thousand million years of evolution, the universe is becoming conscious of itself, able to understand something of its past history and its possible future.
-- Sir Julian Sorell Huxley FRS
Myrrh23
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,639



« Reply #140 on: February 09, 2009, 08:10:40 PM »

If there were no such thing as sin, there would be no need for indulgences.

There is no need for indulgences. Period.

There is no need for Purgatory, either. Either Jesus' sacrifice washes us clean as snow and forgives us completely, or it doesn't. When I was Catholic, Purgatory felt like a Toll House between here and Heaven...(and this Toll House doesn't give you cookies! It gives you punishments! Tongue)
« Last Edit: February 09, 2009, 08:19:12 PM by Myrrh23 » Logged

*I am no longer posting on OC.net*

We all have a Black Dog and a White Dog inside of us. The One you feed the most eventually eats the Other.

All are tempted, but it is the courageous person who clings to God during the storm. For the Ego is a prison, but Christ is the Liberator
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,963



« Reply #141 on: February 09, 2009, 09:40:20 PM »

“Why are we bringing it back?” asked Bishop Nicholas A. DiMarzio of Brooklyn, who has embraced the move. “Because there is sin in the world.” ...

This is a non sequitur.  How does the sinfulness of the world affect the sinners in purgatory?  Does God punish them or purify more because we are still screwing up here on earth.  Again, this is another reason why this doctrine of the Catholic Church really needs to be jettisoned once and for all.
I think that he meant that because the world is and always has been sinful that we now need indulgences for ourselves and those in purpatory need them as well. If there were no such thing as sin, there would be no need for indulgences.
And since there is no such thing as purgatory, there is no neeed for indulgences.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Marc1152
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Rocor
Posts: 13,092


Probiotic .. Antibiotic


« Reply #142 on: February 09, 2009, 10:17:09 PM »

More than once on EWTN (the Catholic TV Network) I have heard them advise that 30 minutes of reading scripture earns you one plenary indulgence. Apparently the idea was not completely abandoned.

Logged

Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm
Entscheidungsproblem
Formerly Friul & Nebelpfade
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Machine God
Posts: 4,495



WWW
« Reply #143 on: February 09, 2009, 10:26:45 PM »

More than once on EWTN (the Catholic TV Network) I have heard them advise that 30 minutes of reading scripture earns you one plenary indulgence. Apparently the idea was not completely abandoned.

That is a reformed version of an older indulgence.

"An indulgence of 300 days is granted to all the Faithful who devoutly read the Holy Scriptures at least a quarter of an hour."
-- Pope Leo XIII (13 Dec., 1898)
Logged

As a result of a thousand million years of evolution, the universe is becoming conscious of itself, able to understand something of its past history and its possible future.
-- Sir Julian Sorell Huxley FRS
scamandrius
Crusher of Secrets; House Lannister
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: I'm Greek and proud of it, damn it!
Posts: 6,147



« Reply #144 on: February 09, 2009, 10:59:59 PM »

^So for every 15 minutes of Scripture reading, 300 days of "Get of Purgatory" are applied to one's "sentence"?  How does someone come up with a formulation like this?  Where is the testimony in the fathers?  Reading things like this only confirm that indulgences and purgatory are innovations of the one true faith handed down once and for all to the saints.
Logged

I seek the truth by which no man was ever harmed--Marcus Aurelius

Those who do not read  history are doomed to get their facts from Hollywood--Anonymous

What earthly joy remains untouched by grief?--St. John Damascene
stashko
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: ИСТОЧНИ ПРАВОСЛАВНИ СРБИН
Jurisdiction: Non Ecumenist Free Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 4,998


Wonderworking Sitka Icon


« Reply #145 on: February 09, 2009, 11:06:19 PM »

How does one get 300 days off if there no time there..How does that work Huh Huh
Logged

ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
Myrrh23
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,639



« Reply #146 on: February 09, 2009, 11:07:27 PM »

^So for every 15 minutes of Scripture reading, 300 days of "Get of Purgatory" are applied to one's "sentence"?  How does someone come up with a formulation like this?  Where is the testimony in the fathers?  Reading things like this only confirm that indulgences and purgatory are innovations of the one true faith handed down once and for all to the saints.

LOL! Well, Roman Catholicism is known for its legalism! Wink

How does one get 300 days off if there no time there..How does that work Huh Huh

Well, actually, God has this cooking timer on his stove for when there's fresh souls in the oven, and... Cheesy
« Last Edit: February 09, 2009, 11:10:27 PM by Myrrh23 » Logged

*I am no longer posting on OC.net*

We all have a Black Dog and a White Dog inside of us. The One you feed the most eventually eats the Other.

All are tempted, but it is the courageous person who clings to God during the storm. For the Ego is a prison, but Christ is the Liberator
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,963



« Reply #147 on: February 09, 2009, 11:08:44 PM »

^So for every 15 minutes of Scripture reading, 300 days of "Get of Purgatory" are applied to one's "sentence"?  How does someone come up with a formulation like this?  Where is the testimony in the fathers?  Reading things like this only confirm that indulgences and purgatory are innovations of the one true faith handed down once and for all to the saints.

Correction: innovation from the One True Faith.

The Vatican has innovations of the one true faith, they call it "development of doctrine."

How does one get 300 days off if there no time there..How does that work Huh Huh

Don't confuse them with the facts.

Well, actually, God has this cooking timer on his stove for when there's fresh souls in the oven, and... Cheesy

LOL.  So purtugatory is preheating for heaven?
« Last Edit: February 09, 2009, 11:12:30 PM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Entscheidungsproblem
Formerly Friul & Nebelpfade
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Machine God
Posts: 4,495



WWW
« Reply #148 on: February 09, 2009, 11:16:37 PM »

How does one get 300 days off if there no time there..How does that work Huh Huh

The duration (which isn't practiced anymore) was equivalent to the that amount of time of penance made in this life (so, 300 days of penance in this example), it had nothing to do with the "time" spent in purgatory.
Logged

As a result of a thousand million years of evolution, the universe is becoming conscious of itself, able to understand something of its past history and its possible future.
-- Sir Julian Sorell Huxley FRS
BrotherAidan
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 1,568

OC.net


« Reply #149 on: February 09, 2009, 11:51:31 PM »

When I was first looking into Orthodoxy and a little bit into RCC, Latin teaching on things like merits of the saints and undulgences spoke in favor of Orthodoxy.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2009, 11:51:51 PM by BrotherAidan » Logged
antiderivative
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Northeastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: A jurisdiction
Posts: 349


« Reply #150 on: February 10, 2009, 12:11:12 AM »

Did the Orthodox Church ever have indulgences?
Logged

signature
Entscheidungsproblem
Formerly Friul & Nebelpfade
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Machine God
Posts: 4,495



WWW
« Reply #151 on: February 10, 2009, 12:18:35 AM »

Did the Orthodox Church ever have indulgences?

Nope, no need for them.  Since the RCC and Orthodox Church differ on their beliefs of temporal punishment.
Logged

As a result of a thousand million years of evolution, the universe is becoming conscious of itself, able to understand something of its past history and its possible future.
-- Sir Julian Sorell Huxley FRS
stashko
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: ИСТОЧНИ ПРАВОСЛАВНИ СРБИН
Jurisdiction: Non Ecumenist Free Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 4,998


Wonderworking Sitka Icon


« Reply #152 on: February 10, 2009, 12:36:05 AM »

“Why are we bringing it back?” asked Bishop Nicholas A. DiMarzio of Brooklyn, who has embraced the move. “Because there is sin in the world.” ...

This is a non sequitur.  How does the sinfulness of the world affect the sinners in purgatory?  Does God punish them or purify more because we are still screwing up here on earth.  Again, this is another reason why this doctrine of the Catholic Church really needs to be jettisoned once and for all.
I think that he meant that because the world is and always has been sinful that we now need indulgences for ourselves and those in purpatory need them as well. If there were no such thing as sin, there would be no need for indulgences.


Brother Papist....

Please clear up some confusion ....the souls that are in purgatory are not very sinful souls but are being cleansed of spots of sins ....
But in life they must of went to Confession and Holy Communion recieved absolution,,shouldn't that of cleansed them totally...why would they have  to end up there... It's like saying,, to me it sound's like Christ's crucifixion death and resurrection didn't achieve it all.... Huh Huh
« Last Edit: February 10, 2009, 12:38:16 AM by stashko » Logged

ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,266


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #153 on: February 10, 2009, 01:30:16 AM »

“Why are we bringing it back?” asked Bishop Nicholas A. DiMarzio of Brooklyn, who has embraced the move. “Because there is sin in the world.” ...

This is a non sequitur.  How does the sinfulness of the world affect the sinners in purgatory?  Does God punish them or purify more because we are still screwing up here on earth.  Again, this is another reason why this doctrine of the Catholic Church really needs to be jettisoned once and for all.
I think that he meant that because the world is and always has been sinful that we now need indulgences for ourselves and those in purpatory need them as well. If there were no such thing as sin, there would be no need for indulgences.


Brother Papist....

Please clear up some confusion ....the souls that are in purgatory are not very sinful souls but are being cleansed of spots of sins ....
But in life they must of went to Confession and Holy Communion recieved absolution,,shouldn't that of cleansed them totally...why would they have  to end up there... It's like saying,, to me it sound's like Christ's crucifixion death and resurrection didn't achieve it all.... Huh Huh

Its not the stain of the sins that are cleansed but our attachement to sin that is cleared away. None of us is perfect when we die. We all know this. Yet we know that that the scriptures state that nothing unholy will enter into heaven. Well, the attachement that we still have to any sin or, rather, the disordered inclination to sin that we still have is removed in the fire of God's love in purgatory so that Christ, in his mercy, makes us fit for heaven.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Entscheidungsproblem
Formerly Friul & Nebelpfade
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Machine God
Posts: 4,495



WWW
« Reply #154 on: February 10, 2009, 01:40:10 AM »

I merged the "For Catholics, Heaven Moves a Step Closer" into this pre-existing thread that covered the various topics being discussed.  It is just easier to keep these sort of discussions all in one area.

-- Nebelpfade
Logged

As a result of a thousand million years of evolution, the universe is becoming conscious of itself, able to understand something of its past history and its possible future.
-- Sir Julian Sorell Huxley FRS
stashko
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: ИСТОЧНИ ПРАВОСЛАВНИ СРБИН
Jurisdiction: Non Ecumenist Free Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 4,998


Wonderworking Sitka Icon


« Reply #155 on: February 10, 2009, 02:10:34 AM »

“Why are we bringing it back?” asked Bishop Nicholas A. DiMarzio of Brooklyn, who has embraced the move. “Because there is sin in the world.” ...

This is a non sequitur.  How does the sinfulness of the world affect the sinners in purgatory?  Does God punish them or purify more because we are still screwing up here on earth.  Again, this is another reason why this doctrine of the Catholic Church really needs to be jettisoned once and for all.
I think that he meant that because the world is and always has been sinful that we now need indulgences for ourselves and those in purpatory need them as well. If there were no such thing as sin, there would be no need for indulgences.


Brother Papist....

Please clear up some confusion ....the souls that are in purgatory are not very sinful souls but are being cleansed of spots of sins ....
But in life they must of went to Confession and Holy Communion recieved absolution,,shouldn't that of cleansed them totally...why would they have  to end up there... It's like saying,, to me it sound's like Christ's crucifixion death and resurrection didn't achieve it all.... Huh Huh

Its not the stain of the sins that are cleansed but our attachement to sin that is cleared away. None of us is perfect when we die. We all know this. Yet we know that that the scriptures state that nothing unholy will enter into heaven. Well, the attachement that we still have to any sin or, rather, the disordered inclination to sin that we still have is removed in the fire of God's love in purgatory so that Christ, in his mercy, makes us fit for heaven.


When you say attachment is it like desire to repeat the same sin while yet alive ....doesn't that fall into temptation that every body experiences including the Holy Saints but they not acting on it ,,saying no to the flesh but yes to the spirit...Scripture does say,, there is no man that livith that sinneth not...that is part of the orthodox funeral service.....
Logged

ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
AlexanderOfBergamo
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Traditionalist Christian
Jurisdiction: The Original First Millennium Church
Posts: 706


« Reply #156 on: February 10, 2009, 09:15:58 AM »

Hi all!

Quote
^So for every 15 minutes of Scripture reading, 300 days of "Get of Purgatory" are applied to one's "sentence"?  How does someone come up with a formulation like this?  Where is the testimony in the fathers?  Reading things like this only confirm that indulgences and purgatory are innovations of the one true faith handed down once and for all to the saints.
I think I can give you some answer on this point brother. I hope that RCs on this forum can correct me on this point, but that's how a friend of mine (ex RC seminarist) clarified this point of the faith I once shared.
There's no law in heaven and no tradition of the Church that 15 minutes of Scripture reading equal 300 days less of purgatory. Why? Because it's a decision of the Pope to grant this indulgence/extra absolution. In other words: as a Successor of Peter, the Pope has been given the power to bind and loose. Then, he can also choose the conditions to obtain absolution. In this case, the Pope decreed - as a sort of judge - that all sinners who read the Scriptures for 15 minutes a day were granted by Papal power an indulgence of 300 days of purgatory. If he wanted, he could have given a plenary indulgence, or a different amount of days, and so on.
In the prayer of the Rosary, for example, there's a specific prayer "for the intentions of the Pope": if you pray for the Pope and his intentions, you can obtain an indulgence.

In other words, the doctrine of indulgences is connected more explicitly to the Papal powers then to the essence of Purgatory.

I also ask you if my point of view on life after death in Orthodoxy is correct. I always perceived time for the departed as a "personal perception". Let's take as an example the Toll House imagery (which is, I think, only a mystical transposition of otherwise incomprehensible truths) and the extension of prayers for the departed. All Toll Houses revelations ascribe to the soul a period of 40 days for purification, but Orthodox Christians pray for the dead even beyond the 40th day after one's death. Then my personal opinion/understanding is that as God's time is different then ours, also the departed's time is different: they perceive that only 40 days have passed (because 40 is a symbol for preparation and purification in Christianity: look at the period of Christ in the desert, and at the Exodus) even if each souls spends a different time there. Is my opinion in some way erroneous? Shall I renounce to this interpretation of time for the departed? Is it somehow an heretical theological opinion from an Orthodox perspective?
Thanks in advance for your explanations.

In Christ,   Alex
« Last Edit: February 10, 2009, 09:30:34 AM by AlexanderOfBergamo » Logged

"Also in the Catholic Church itself we take great care that we hold that which has been believed everywhere, always, by all. For that is truly and properly Catholic" (St. Vincent of Lérins, "The Commonitory")
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,266


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #157 on: February 10, 2009, 12:17:51 PM »

“Why are we bringing it back?” asked Bishop Nicholas A. DiMarzio of Brooklyn, who has embraced the move. “Because there is sin in the world.” ...

This is a non sequitur.  How does the sinfulness of the world affect the sinners in purgatory?  Does God punish them or purify more because we are still screwing up here on earth.  Again, this is another reason why this doctrine of the Catholic Church really needs to be jettisoned once and for all.
I think that he meant that because the world is and always has been sinful that we now need indulgences for ourselves and those in purpatory need them as well. If there were no such thing as sin, there would be no need for indulgences.


Brother Papist....

Please clear up some confusion ....the souls that are in purgatory are not very sinful souls but are being cleansed of spots of sins ....
But in life they must of went to Confession and Holy Communion recieved absolution,,shouldn't that of cleansed them totally...why would they have  to end up there... It's like saying,, to me it sound's like Christ's crucifixion death and resurrection didn't achieve it all.... Huh Huh

Its not the stain of the sins that are cleansed but our attachement to sin that is cleared away. None of us is perfect when we die. We all know this. Yet we know that that the scriptures state that nothing unholy will enter into heaven. Well, the attachement that we still have to any sin or, rather, the disordered inclination to sin that we still have is removed in the fire of God's love in purgatory so that Christ, in his mercy, makes us fit for heaven.


When you say attachment is it like desire to repeat the same sin while yet alive ....doesn't that fall into temptation that every body experiences including the Holy Saints but they not acting on it ,,saying no to the flesh but yes to the spirit...Scripture does say,, there is no man that livith that sinneth not...that is part of the orthodox funeral service.....
Yes and that part of us that is prone to sin, is a defect that need healing before we enter into heaven.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Myrrh23
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,639



« Reply #158 on: February 10, 2009, 01:55:05 PM »

How does one get 300 days off if there no time there..How does that work Huh Huh

The duration (which isn't practiced anymore) was equivalent to the that amount of time of penance made in this life (so, 300 days of penance in this example), it had nothing to do with the "time" spent in purgatory.

That's not what I was taught, and the RCC used an example to illustrate it. I was taught that unconfessed sins and/or sins confessed but not truly regretted equalled a certain amount of time in Purgo. The example the Church used to "help" us believe was the "vision" that one of the Medjugorie girls had from the Virgin Mary. Supposedly, she asked about where an older friend of hers was that had died in her teens or twenties. The Virgin responded that her friend was in Purgo and would remain there for more than 100 years due to her sins. (I think it was a hundred years... Undecided) Also, there were special prayers to shave off time in Purgo, or even release the souls altogether. I remember I used to pray a special prayer for the latter. I'll have to find the prayer...
Logged

*I am no longer posting on OC.net*

We all have a Black Dog and a White Dog inside of us. The One you feed the most eventually eats the Other.

All are tempted, but it is the courageous person who clings to God during the storm. For the Ego is a prison, but Christ is the Liberator
lubeltri
Latin Catholic layman
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Boston
Posts: 3,795



« Reply #159 on: February 10, 2009, 03:01:26 PM »

How does one get 300 days off if there no time there..How does that work Huh Huh

The duration (which isn't practiced anymore) was equivalent to the that amount of time of penance made in this life (so, 300 days of penance in this example), it had nothing to do with the "time" spent in purgatory.

That's not what I was taught, and the RCC used an example to illustrate it. I was taught that unconfessed sins and/or sins confessed but not truly regretted equalled a certain amount of time in Purgo. The example the Church used to "help" us believe was the "vision" that one of the Medjugorie girls had from the Virgin Mary. Supposedly, she asked about where an older friend of hers was that had died in her teens or twenties. The Virgin responded that her friend was in Purgo and would remain there for more than 100 years due to her sins. (I think it was a hundred years... Undecided) Also, there were special prayers to shave off time in Purgo, or even release the souls altogether. I remember I used to pray a special prayer for the latter. I'll have to find the prayer...

How many times have I heard the bolded text? Clearly you were taught wrong.

1) The Medjugorje "apparitions" are not approved by the Catholic Church.

2) There is no such thing as "time" in Purgatory. Before the reformation of indulgences by Pope Paul VI, indulgences were expressed by periods of time (30 days, etc.), but these did not refer to actual time spent in Purgatory but to the equivalent length of canonical penances performed during the patristic period. So an indulgence of 30 days is equivalent to 30 days of canonical penance in the early Church.

However, Church law on indulgences has changed---indulgences are not expressed by periods of time but simply as "partial indulgences." The amount of purification this indulgence accomplishes depends on the depth of charity with which the indulgenced act is done.

Plenary (full) indulgences remain.
Logged
Stefi
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 11


« Reply #160 on: February 10, 2009, 09:54:13 PM »

So why would someone so perfected, who as you said is the type who needs no stop in purgatory wish to be granted a plenary indulgence? Or why make the conditions for revieving one so strict that those who might need it the most may likely never recieve it? Is it to inspire them to go after all the partial indulgences they can so they might actually be bothered to do good things?
I think that these indulgences and good works of ours on earth,  can be applied to some extent to lessen the punishment of those souls already in Purgatory.
For me, it seems like Purgatory is very reasonable and makes a lot of sense. Here's why for example: Suppose that an individual commits some terrible and horrific crimes, causing enormous pain and sorrow to many families, but the day before he is executed, he repents and goes to confession. Now, should that person go directly to heaven, or should he still be required to serve a certain punishment for all the harm he has done on earth.

Hello,

However, Jesus said to the criminal "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise" (Luke, 23:43). It sounds like the criminal did not have to go through purgatory to be with Jesus.

Stefania
Logged
ignatius
Baptacathadox
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic > Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA - Diocese of the South
Posts: 1,690


My Son Aidan... :-)


« Reply #161 on: February 10, 2009, 10:34:15 PM »

Hello,

However, Jesus said to the criminal "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise" (Luke, 23:43). It sounds like the criminal did not have to go through purgatory to be with Jesus.

Stefania

Grace and Peace Stefania,

Yes, this is very true but to a devout Roman Catholic it was the the Good Thief's suffering on the cross which expiated his affections for sin. Although all the Israelites left Egypt in effect, not all of them left it in affection, and hence in the wilderness many of them regretted their lack of the onions and fleshpots of Egypt.

In like manner, there are penitents who leave sin in effect, but do not leave it in affection. They resolve never to sin again, but it is with a certain reluctance that they give up or abstain from the fatal delights of sin. Their heart renounces and shuns sin but looks back at it just as Lot's wife looked back at Sodom.

It is this interior affection which Purgatory separates from the soul of those whom lack the perfect contrition of the Good Thief.
Logged

St Basil the Great (330-379 A.D.): “I think then that the one goal of all who are really and truly serving the Lord ought to be to bring back to union the churches who have at different times and in diverse manners divided from one another.”
stashko
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: ИСТОЧНИ ПРАВОСЛАВНИ СРБИН
Jurisdiction: Non Ecumenist Free Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 4,998


Wonderworking Sitka Icon


« Reply #162 on: February 10, 2009, 10:44:57 PM »

How does one get 300 days off if there no time there..How does that work Huh Huh

The duration (which isn't practiced anymore) was equivalent to the that amount of time of penance made in this life (so, 300 days of penance in this example), it had nothing to do with the "time" spent in purgatory.

That's not what I was taught, and the RCC used an example to illustrate it. I was taught that unconfessed sins and/or sins confessed but not truly regretted equalled a certain amount of time in Purgo. The example the Church used to "help" us believe was the "vision" that one of the Medjugorie girls had from the Virgin Mary. Supposedly, she asked about where an older friend of hers was that had died in her teens or twenties. The Virgin responded that her friend was in Purgo and would remain there for more than 100 years due to her sins. (I think it was a hundred years... Undecided) Also, there were special prayers to shave off time in Purgo, or even release the souls altogether. I remember I used to pray a special prayer for the latter. I'll have to find the prayer...

How many times have I heard the bolded text? Clearly you were taught wrong.

1) The Medjugorje "apparitions" are not approved by the Catholic Church.

2) There is no such thing as "time" in Purgatory. Before the reformation of indulgences by Pope Paul VI, indulgences were expressed by periods of time (30 days, etc.), but these did not refer to actual time spent in Purgatory but to the equivalent length of canonical penances performed during the patristic period. So an indulgence of 30 days is equivalent to 30 days of canonical penance in the early Church.

However, Church law on indulgences has changed---indulgences are not expressed by periods of time but simply as "partial indulgences." The amount of purification this indulgence accomplishes depends on the depth of charity with which the indulgences act is done.

Plenary (full) indulgences remain.



Why can't the pope just use his god powers and set everybody free thats their...some of the popes did use there god powers and banished quite a lot of people to hell...Fr. ambrose did bring this up ..not just on caf ..but here on this forum somewhere...Why would the pope waste his time dishing out indulgences..can't he give a general absolution to them,and empty it out...
« Last Edit: February 10, 2009, 10:49:42 PM by stashko » Logged

ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
ignatius
Baptacathadox
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic > Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA - Diocese of the South
Posts: 1,690


My Son Aidan... :-)


« Reply #163 on: February 10, 2009, 10:51:45 PM »

Why can't the pope just use his god powers and set everybody free thats their...some of the popes did use there god powers and banished quite a lot of people to hell...Fr. ambrose did bring this up ..not just on caf ..but here on this forum somewhere...

Grace and Peace,

You might be able to take the Israelite out of Egypt, but you can't take Egypt out of the Israelite. Ultimately, salvation is the work of the penitent not the Pope.

Excommunication has always been a most extreme means of correction, even for St. Paul.
Logged

St Basil the Great (330-379 A.D.): “I think then that the one goal of all who are really and truly serving the Lord ought to be to bring back to union the churches who have at different times and in diverse manners divided from one another.”
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #164 on: February 10, 2009, 10:54:09 PM »

Why would the pope waste his time dishing out indulgences..can't he give a general absolution to them,and empty it out...
How do you keep a grip on power then?
If you give people everything, they won't fear and respect you.
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
Stefi
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 11


« Reply #165 on: February 10, 2009, 10:55:56 PM »

Hello,

However, Jesus said to the criminal "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise" (Luke, 23:43). It sounds like the criminal did not have to go through purgatory to be with Jesus.

Stefania

Grace and Peace Stefania,

Yes, this is very true but to a devout Roman Catholic it was the the Good Thief's suffering on the cross which expiated his affections for sin.

Hello,

I am not sure I understand your post. Did you mean that the thief wasn't truly repenting of his sins and that his physical suffering on the cross was the principal factor in his forgiveness? If I misunderstood, please, explain it to me again. Thanks,

Stefania
Logged
stashko
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: ИСТОЧНИ ПРАВОСЛАВНИ СРБИН
Jurisdiction: Non Ecumenist Free Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 4,998


Wonderworking Sitka Icon


« Reply #166 on: February 10, 2009, 10:56:01 PM »

Why can't the pope just use his god powers and set everybody free thats their...some of the popes did use there god powers and banished quite a lot of people to hell...Fr. ambrose did bring this up ..not just on caf ..but here on this forum somewhere...

Grace and Peace,

You might be able to take the Israelite out of Egypt, but you can't take Egypt out of the Israelite. Ultimately, salvation is the work of the penitent not the Pope.

Excommunication has always been a most extreme means of correction, even for St. Paul.

Brother...
In orthodoxy at a funeral the body has a absolution prayer said over it by the priest .so the body is absolved of it sins it did in life....hence no purgatory in orthodoxy..........
« Last Edit: February 10, 2009, 11:16:15 PM by stashko » Logged

ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
ignatius
Baptacathadox
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic > Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA - Diocese of the South
Posts: 1,690


My Son Aidan... :-)


« Reply #167 on: February 10, 2009, 11:11:50 PM »

Hello,

I am not sure I understand your post. Did you mean that the thief wasn't truly repenting of his sins and that his physical suffering on the cross was the principal factor in his forgiveness? If I misunderstood, please, explain it to me again. Thanks,

Stefania

Grace and Peace,

No, this is not what I meant with what I said. Surely it is clear that the Good Thief was repentant for those crimes in which he was being punished. He recognized his punishment as just and merited. In perfect contrition then he turned to our Lord and Saviour for mercy and it was given him. Glory to Jesus Christ for His mercy.

As the Prayer of Manasseh states: "I have sinned, O Lord, I have sinned, and I acknowledge my transgressions". Before God can deliver us we must undeceive ourselves. This is the distinctions between the Good Thief and that other one on Christ's left.

In accepting his just punishment and enduring it, the Good Thief was cleansed from any affection toward his sinful nature. In the shining face of God there are those whom have nothing built upon that foundation which burns when tested and so Paradise is open to them.
Logged

St Basil the Great (330-379 A.D.): “I think then that the one goal of all who are really and truly serving the Lord ought to be to bring back to union the churches who have at different times and in diverse manners divided from one another.”
ignatius
Baptacathadox
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic > Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA - Diocese of the South
Posts: 1,690


My Son Aidan... :-)


« Reply #168 on: February 10, 2009, 11:17:32 PM »

Brother...
In orthodoxy at a funeral the body has a absolution prayer said over it by the priest .so the body is absolved of it sins it did in life....

Grace and Peace,

Without repentance no one will enter Paradise. As Job said so well, "I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee. Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes". Absolution presupposes repentance but does not establish it for that is truly the work of the penitential heart standing before the Mercy Seat.
Logged

St Basil the Great (330-379 A.D.): “I think then that the one goal of all who are really and truly serving the Lord ought to be to bring back to union the churches who have at different times and in diverse manners divided from one another.”
Stefi
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 11


« Reply #169 on: February 10, 2009, 11:27:22 PM »

Hello,

Thank you ignatius. Would you say that if the thief still had "affection to his sinful nature" it wouldn't have been possible for him to enter Paradise?

Stefania
Logged
stashko
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: ИСТОЧНИ ПРАВОСЛАВНИ СРБИН
Jurisdiction: Non Ecumenist Free Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 4,998


Wonderworking Sitka Icon


« Reply #170 on: February 10, 2009, 11:30:29 PM »

Peace ...mir boziji...
Christ gave the church the power to absolve sin completely after all Christ is God he liberated us from the old covenant laws..his yoke is light....
Logged

ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
ignatius
Baptacathadox
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic > Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA - Diocese of the South
Posts: 1,690


My Son Aidan... :-)


« Reply #171 on: February 10, 2009, 11:46:49 PM »

Hello,

Thank you ignatius. Would you say that if the thief still had "affection to his sinful nature" it wouldn't have been possible for him to enter Paradise?

Stefania

Grace and Peace,

If any mans work burn, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.
- 1 Corinthians 3:15 DRB

It would be the devout Roman Catholic understanding that even with Repentance without Perfect Contrition "he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire". This is the Catholic teaching regarding this passage and the need of purgation.
Logged

St Basil the Great (330-379 A.D.): “I think then that the one goal of all who are really and truly serving the Lord ought to be to bring back to union the churches who have at different times and in diverse manners divided from one another.”
ignatius
Baptacathadox
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic > Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA - Diocese of the South
Posts: 1,690


My Son Aidan... :-)


« Reply #172 on: February 10, 2009, 11:51:38 PM »

Peace ...mir boziji...
Christ gave the church the power to absolve sin completely after all Christ is God he liberated us from the old covenant laws..his yoke is light....

It was St. Maximos the Confessor who once said that "God moves the heart that is willing". I don't believe an unrepentant heart would accept the gifts the Church offers in this case. I believe the Church offers absolution to the soul departed with the hope that it will be received but I have never heard that God or His Church does anything against the will of even an unwilling heart.
Logged

St Basil the Great (330-379 A.D.): “I think then that the one goal of all who are really and truly serving the Lord ought to be to bring back to union the churches who have at different times and in diverse manners divided from one another.”
stashko
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: ИСТОЧНИ ПРАВОСЛАВНИ СРБИН
Jurisdiction: Non Ecumenist Free Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 4,998


Wonderworking Sitka Icon


« Reply #173 on: February 11, 2009, 12:01:17 AM »

Peace ...mir boziji...
Christ gave the church the power to absolve sin completely after all Christ is God he liberated us from the old covenant laws..his yoke is light....

It was St. Maximos the Confessor who once said that "God moves the heart that is willing". I don't believe an unrepentant heart would accept the gifts the Church offers in this case. I believe the Church offers absolution to the soul departed with the hope that it will be received but I have never heard that God or His Church does anything against the will of even an unwilling heart.

That's why in orthodoxy there's memorial services ,parastoses.. and other prayers for the departed that avail them much ..even they being mentioned around the time of the holy gift's....God hears His Church's prayer's his right hand has established....
« Last Edit: February 11, 2009, 12:09:59 AM by stashko » Logged

ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
lubeltri
Latin Catholic layman
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Boston
Posts: 3,795



« Reply #174 on: February 11, 2009, 12:10:13 AM »

Indeed, no one knows if grace moves the heart of a man at his last breath. Our Lord has never revealed to the (Catholic) Church the damnation of any person. Thank God for that. We can only hope and pray for all souls that they are moved to repentance, even at the last moment of their earthly lives.

Ignatius, your explanations here have been excellent. If you do end up leaving us, I will be glad that you will be another Orthodox (like YoungFogey) who at least grasps Catholic teaching on frequently misunderstood topics like the Atonement and Purgatory.
Logged
Stefi
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 11


« Reply #175 on: February 11, 2009, 12:12:05 AM »

Hello,

Thanks again for your reply. I would like to ask those who believe in purgatory: how is it that the thief in the bible passage repented for his sins and lost his sinful nature when Jesus told him he would be taken to Paradise (and i don't think i am satisfied with the answer that it was because of his suffering on the cross) but others repent but still have sinful tendency and have to go through purgatory in order to get to Heaven?
Also, what about Enoch? He didn't go to purgatory...

Stefania
Logged
ignatius
Baptacathadox
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic > Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA - Diocese of the South
Posts: 1,690


My Son Aidan... :-)


« Reply #176 on: February 11, 2009, 12:14:13 AM »

That's why in orthodoxy there's memorial services ,parastoses.. and other prayers for the departed that avail them much ..even they being mentioned around the time of the holy gift's....God hear's His churche's prayer's his right hand has established....

I have no doubt that there are those whom would greatly benefit from these. I simply fail to see why we must argue the point that such works are efficacious for the unrepentant souls. Perhaps you believe in apokatastasis and thus believe that 'all souls' will ultimately be restored? In the West, this teaching has largely been enfolded within the Dogma of Purgatory and those whom pass from this world unrepentant also pass by the cleansing fires and enter the dark.


Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened to a king, who would take an account of his servants... Then his lord called him; and said to him: Thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all the debt, because thou besoughtest me: Shouldst not thou then have had compassion also on thy fellow servant, even as I had compassion on thee? And his lord being angry, delivered him to the torturers until he paid all the debt.

To the devout Roman Catholic this passage speaks of Purgatory since it speaks ultimately of the Kingdom. All who enter the cleansing fire see the light of the heavenly realm from afar but in them is the solace of certain salvation to come.
Logged

St Basil the Great (330-379 A.D.): “I think then that the one goal of all who are really and truly serving the Lord ought to be to bring back to union the churches who have at different times and in diverse manners divided from one another.”
stashko
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: ИСТОЧНИ ПРАВОСЛАВНИ СРБИН
Jurisdiction: Non Ecumenist Free Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 4,998


Wonderworking Sitka Icon


« Reply #177 on: February 11, 2009, 12:22:08 AM »

Brother somewhere on this forum it is discussed ,, what you just mentioned about the fire that cleanses. i can't remember where though...
Logged

ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
ignatius
Baptacathadox
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic > Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA - Diocese of the South
Posts: 1,690


My Son Aidan... :-)


« Reply #178 on: February 11, 2009, 12:25:19 AM »

Hello,

Thanks again for your reply. I would like to ask those who believe in purgatory: how is it that the thief in the bible passage repented for his sins and lost his sinful nature when Jesus told him he would be taken to Paradise (and i don't think i am satisfied with the answer that it was because of his suffering on the cross) but others repent but still have sinful tendency and have to go through purgatory in order to get to Heaven?

Also, what about Enoch? He didn't go to purgatory...

Stefania

Grace and Peace,

I am not her to satisfy you and convince you of the Dogma of Purgatory. I am simply offering to you, as much as I am able, the cogent teaching as it is understood by devout Roman Catholics.

As I stated earlier, with Perfect Contrition for our sins there is no temporal wound to be mended through the Holy Labors of Penance. There exist within the varying degrees of Perfection in this world states in which no purgation of affection to our fallen nature is needed. Not everyone experiences Purgatory but it is thought by some Latin Fathers that most do before entering Paradise.

Perhaps Enoch walked with God in such a perfected state that no purgation was necessary? Truly we must both agree the number of such individuals are quite rare indeed as only two are found in the Sacred Texts (Enoch and Elijah).
Logged

St Basil the Great (330-379 A.D.): “I think then that the one goal of all who are really and truly serving the Lord ought to be to bring back to union the churches who have at different times and in diverse manners divided from one another.”
ignatius
Baptacathadox
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic > Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA - Diocese of the South
Posts: 1,690


My Son Aidan... :-)


« Reply #179 on: February 11, 2009, 12:27:14 AM »

Brother somewhere on this forum it is discussed ,, what you just mentioned about the fire that cleanses. i can't remember where though...

Yes, Mickey and I struggled with this very passage in the thread "Repentance and/or penance after the repose of the soul". It is truly a challenging topic.
Logged

St Basil the Great (330-379 A.D.): “I think then that the one goal of all who are really and truly serving the Lord ought to be to bring back to union the churches who have at different times and in diverse manners divided from one another.”
Tags: indulgences purgatory Hell forgiveness after death toll houses apokatastasis 
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 »   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.157 seconds with 72 queries.