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Author Topic: Indulgences, Temporal Punishment, Purgatory, etc  (Read 176356 times) Average Rating: 5
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« Reply #1260 on: April 19, 2010, 12:31:45 AM »

Christ is Risen, Alleluia

"You must also discuss carefully how much efficacy there is in indulgences; how great is the fruit of remission, not only of the canonical but also of the temporal punishment due for sins; and finally, how much aid from the treasure of merits from Christ and the saints may be applied to those who died truly penitent before they had made adequate satisfaction for their sins. Their souls must be purified in the fires of purgatory so that entry into the eternal fatherland may open to them"

Pope Leo XII, 1824
Encyclical On the Universal Jubilee


So far we are finding a consistent teaching on Purgatory spanning the centuries from Thomas Aquinas who died in 1274, the 17th Ecumenical Council of Florence which closed in 1445, then Pope Benedict XIV in 1749, and then Pope Leo XII in 1824 and up to Pope Paul VI in 1967 - it is fully consistent.  It is about remitting the punishment of sin by fire and torment.

This is only the tip of the evidential iceberg and we can easily add in other Popes and other Councils and many theologians from earlier centuries.

I am, personally, not in denial of this... are others here in denial of this? As much as 'we' cling to our own sins... is as much as the cleansing fire of the presence of the Almighty we be truly a torment... until that point that 'we' release our grasping of it.
Christ is Risen, Alleluia

Dear Ignatius,

What you have said is not directly connected with the teaching of the Popes, the Councils and the theologians ands Saints as given in several messages above.  They are NOT speaking about the fires and torments of purgatory detaching a soul from attachment to sin.  They see the fires as punitive, as the punishment justly imposed by God which is the payment for the temporal punishment due to past sins.  The soul may or may not still be attached to these sins.
Punishment teaches us discipline. That the is primary purpose of the punishment of purgatory. I think back to my parents. Did they punish me? Indeed they did but not for the sake of torturing me but rather to discipline me and detach me from bad habbits so that I would grow up into a good person. Since God is Father, I have to believe that the punishments of Purgatory serve the the same purpose.
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« Reply #1261 on: April 19, 2010, 01:23:45 AM »

For us, the final rejection of 'Purgatory' comes from the fact that the rest of the Church rejects the teaching of post-mortem punishment for sins.  The Orthodox can agree that souls experience temporary torment after death, but we reject the idea that God commands souls be tormented prior to the Final Judgment.

Father Giryus, I hope I have provided sufficient documentation in our discussion to establish that the contemporary Catholic Church understands Purgatory as a process of purification and sanctification.  Please read the material cited by Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI, as well as others.  Orthodox need to read these writings if they are to properly understand the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory. 

I think the Orthodox feel a little jittery about theological matters which have been written within the last 20 years and particularly when it is so evidently out of synch with the consensus of teaching of the preceding centuries.  Despite the best attempts at modern reconstruction the disjunct is very obvious to anyone who studies the previous teaching.

I have always felt a little sorry for the faithful Catholic nuns and priests (and even the bishops) who taught the Catholic faith on Purgatory to millions of young Catholics and they were 100% faithful to the teaching of the Popes and the Magisterium and the seminaries.

These days they are denigrated as uneducated priests and nuns who were teaching a distortion of the Catholic faith.  People prefer to conceal the fact they were teaching what was taught for hundreds of years.
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« Reply #1262 on: April 19, 2010, 11:22:19 AM »

For us, the final rejection of 'Purgatory' comes from the fact that the rest of the Church rejects the teaching of post-mortem punishment for sins.  The Orthodox can agree that souls experience temporary torment after death, but we reject the idea that God commands souls be tormented prior to the Final Judgment.

Father Giryus, I hope I have provided sufficient documentation in our discussion to establish that the contemporary Catholic Church understands Purgatory as a process of purification and sanctification.  Please read the material cited by Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI, as well as others.  Orthodox need to read these writings if they are to properly understand the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory. 
        

Dear Fr. Alvin,

Having read your posts and then Irish Hermit's research of previous Popes' statements on the matter, I see a disconnect that, while admirable, still represents something of a departure from Traditional RCC teaching and doctrine.  Yes, this departure brings the two sides closer, but the fact that many RCs will not admit that RCC doctrine has changed over the years is rather problematic.

The reason I say 'problematic' is that the decision-making process itself.  For the Orthodox, contemporary teachings are only part of how we look at a theological issue.  We look to the entire strain of thought.  That is because contemporary changes in teaching can be altered by the next generation of 'contemporaries.'  How old is the Pope?  If it is within his power to clarify doctrine in a 'contemporary' way, who can say what his replacement will decide a decade from now, especially if it is within his power to make a rather significant doctrinal shift away from the previous teachings documented by Irish Hermit.

It is very difficult for us to accept that this teaching of Pope Benedict will gain universal recognition within the RCC.  That is important to us because, again, that is how Orthodox teachings have come about: universal recognition.  Until the entire Church agrees, a thought is merely a 'theory' with no doctrinal weight.

Now, what might be interesting is to find out if Pope Benedict is making this teaching an 'infallible proclamation.'  Please forgive me, but I have never really understood how that works, but if he has not declared this present teaching under discussion an 'infallible teaching,' then it is subject to error and thus to being overturned, yes?

I think the matter is far from settled in this generation.

At for the matter of time and death, I was not entirely sure where you were going with that, until I later realized you are addressing the issue of specific 'sentences' to Purgatory for various sins (i.e. 500 years, 1000 years, etc.).  Since the human person is broken up at death, I would agree that the experience of time until the General Resurrrection will be different, but I don't think it will be unnoticable since death does not part us from time itself as a linear existence.

A big THANK YOU to the Reverend Irish Hermit for his research and posting!

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« Reply #1263 on: April 19, 2010, 12:13:51 PM »

For us, the final rejection of 'Purgatory' comes from the fact that the rest of the Church rejects the teaching of post-mortem punishment for sins.  The Orthodox can agree that souls experience temporary torment after death, but we reject the idea that God commands souls be tormented prior to the Final Judgment.

Father Giryus, I hope I have provided sufficient documentation in our discussion to establish that the contemporary Catholic Church understands Purgatory as a process of purification and sanctification.  Please read the material cited by Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI, as well as others.  Orthodox need to read these writings if they are to properly understand the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory. 

I think the Orthodox feel a little jittery about theological matters which have been written within the last 20 years and particularly when it is so evidently out of synch with the consensus of teaching of the preceding centuries.  Despite the best attempts at modern reconstruction the disjunct is very obvious to anyone who studies the previous teaching.

I have always felt a little sorry for the faithful Catholic nuns and priests (and even the bishops) who taught the Catholic faith on Purgatory to millions of young Catholics and they were 100% faithful to the teaching of the Popes and the Magisterium and the seminaries.

These days they are denigrated as uneducated priests and nuns who were teaching a distortion of the Catholic faith.  People prefer to conceal the fact they were teaching what was taught for hundreds of years.
I don't see where you are coming from. I am traditionalist Catholic but I have no problem with the way the recent Popes has described the mystery of Purgatory. We know so little about purgatory that I have no problem using different anologies and metaphores to describe it.
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« Reply #1264 on: April 19, 2010, 01:27:27 PM »

For us, the final rejection of 'Purgatory' comes from the fact that the rest of the Church rejects the teaching of post-mortem punishment for sins.  The Orthodox can agree that souls experience temporary torment after death, but we reject the idea that God commands souls be tormented prior to the Final Judgment.

Father Giryus, I hope I have provided sufficient documentation in our discussion to establish that the contemporary Catholic Church understands Purgatory as a process of purification and sanctification.  Please read the material cited by Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI, as well as others.  Orthodox need to read these writings if they are to properly understand the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory. 
        

Dear Fr. Alvin,

Having read your posts and then Irish Hermit's research of previous Popes' statements on the matter, I see a disconnect that, while admirable, still represents something of a departure from Traditional RCC teaching and doctrine.  Yes, this departure brings the two sides closer, but the fact that many RCs will not admit that RCC doctrine has changed over the years is rather problematic.

Fr Giryus, it really is very important for you and other readers of this thread to understand that Fr Ambrose is NOT well acquainted with Catholic theology.  As well demonstrated, not only in this thread but in other conversations both on this forum and others, his knowledge of magisterial Catholic teaching is distorted by his own polemical and ideological commitments.  He presents us with a caricature in which few Catholics outside of the schismatic Society of St Pius X (SSPX) recognize themselves.  Fr Ambrose can proof-text as many documents as he wants, but you and I both know how dangerous and misinformed such proof-texting can be.  Fr Ambrose's proof-texting is akin to the kind of proof-texting practiced by biblical fundamentalists.  All ecclesial texts, whether biblical, patristic, conciliar, papal, or whatever, need to be read within their proper historical and theological context, as well as within the developing mind of the Church.  Please trust me:  John Paul II, Benedict XVI, and the Catholic Catechism are infinitely more reliable guides to Catholic belief than Fr Ambrose. 

Thank you for this conversation.  It appears to have come to its natural end.         
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« Reply #1265 on: April 19, 2010, 01:34:53 PM »

Having read your posts and then Irish Hermit's research of previous Popes' statements on the matter, I see a disconnect that, while admirable, still represents something of a departure from Traditional RCC teaching and doctrine. 

I agree with you and Fr Ambrose.  It is unfortunate that charges of fundamentalism and polemicism have been levied against Fr Ambrose.  Sad

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« Reply #1266 on: April 19, 2010, 02:13:09 PM »

Having read your posts and then Irish Hermit's research of previous Popes' statements on the matter, I see a disconnect that, while admirable, still represents something of a departure from Traditional RCC teaching and doctrine. 

I agree with you and Fr Ambrose.  It is unfortunate that charges of fundamentalism and polemicism have been levied against Fr Ambrose.  Sad


Oh, give me a break. Are you drinking the Kool-Aide too?
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« Reply #1267 on: April 19, 2010, 02:25:37 PM »

Having read your posts and then Irish Hermit's research of previous Popes' statements on the matter, I see a disconnect that, while admirable, still represents something of a departure from Traditional RCC teaching and doctrine. 

I agree with you and Fr Ambrose.  It is unfortunate that charges of fundamentalism and polemicism have been levied against Fr Ambrose.  Sad


Oh, give me a break. Are you drinking the Kool-Aide too?


Am I drinking 'Kool-Aide' merely because we disagree?

The basis for your ad hominem is that we are somehow irrational.  I don't think you can make such an accusation, particularly when I have asked for and not seen a response to the questions I have raised (in a polite, non-confrontational fashion, as best I can) the matters regarding the development of doctrine in the RCC and the right of the Pope to change, refine, etc. said doctrine.

I have not condemned the RCC to utter darkness, and am disappointed that Fr. Alvin thinks the conversation is over when I have not yet figured out how the RCC makes such decisions.  The fact is I raised reasonable questions, and you accuse me of cult-like behavior.

If you wonder why there is schism in Christianity, then look at your own response to what was a civil discourse.
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« Reply #1268 on: April 19, 2010, 02:31:57 PM »

Having read your posts and then Irish Hermit's research of previous Popes' statements on the matter, I see a disconnect that, while admirable, still represents something of a departure from Traditional RCC teaching and doctrine.  

I agree with you and Fr Ambrose.  It is unfortunate that charges of fundamentalism and polemicism have been levied against Fr Ambrose.  Sad


Oh, give me a break. Are you drinking the Kool-Aide too?


Am I drinking 'Kool-Aide' merely because we disagree?

The basis for your ad hominem is that we are somehow irrational.  I don't think you can make such an accusation, particularly when I have asked for and not seen a response to the questions I have raised (in a polite, non-confrontational fashion, as best I can) the matters regarding the development of doctrine in the RCC and the right of the Pope to change, refine, etc. said doctrine.

I have not condemned the RCC to utter darkness, and am disappointed that Fr. Alvin thinks the conversation is over when I have not yet figured out how the RCC makes such decisions.  The fact is I raised reasonable questions, and you accuse me of cult-like behavior.

If you wonder why there is schism in Christianity, then look at your own response to what was a civil discourse.

I am not making an attack against you or your views. I think, that for the most part,  you have tried to be civil and honest in this discussion. What I am criticizing is Fr. Ambrose's general approach and I am not the only person who has criticized him on this matter. Nor is the the first that I have criticized his approach. You can go back all the way to my Catholic Answers days to see that I have always thought that Fr. Ambrose's approach to appologetics is very dishonest.

Perhaps its is my fault that I did not make it clear that I was aiming this at Fr. Ambrose and not you. I appologize.
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« Reply #1269 on: April 19, 2010, 02:40:13 PM »

 I'm one of those who thinks that the SSPX and traditionalist Catholics - whether or not you agree with them - are fundamentally correct, when they say that there is a discontinuity between the pre-Conciliar church and the post-Conciliar church. There have been liturgical changes prior to Vatican II - for example, the easing of Eucharistic fasting to 3 hours, the introduction of Vesperal Saturday Masses, or even mid-week Lenten masses under Pius X. But the scope of the changes associated with the Mass of Paul VI are so extensive that they deserve to be placed in a category all their own.

I would go on a limb and say that additional theological shifts - some of them welcome and overdue - cover the same period and should be treated the same way. Roman Catholic involvement with the ecumenical movement was conducted in the post-conciliar period on Protestant terms, and with such agencies as the World Council or Churches (essentially a Protestant organization). As a result, the theological authority of St. Thomas Aquinas has been downgraded in this period.

Finally, the description of purgatory as a kind of temporary hell from which one's sufferings can be alleviated through prayer and almsgiving of the living is hardly an SSPX invention. This has been for many generations the theological underpinning for the doctrine of praying for the dead.
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« Reply #1270 on: April 19, 2010, 02:44:30 PM »

Finally, the description of purgatory as a kind of temporary hell from which one's sufferings can be alleviated through prayer and almsgiving of the living is hardly an SSPX invention. This has been for many generations the theological underpinning for the doctrine of praying for the dead.

Yes. It is how I was taught as a child.  But limbo was even more frightening to me!  Shocked
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« Reply #1271 on: April 19, 2010, 02:52:02 PM »

A concrete example of post-Conciliar changes is that Catholic health care workers are actually expressily forbidden to baptize children near death. Back in the era of the Baltimore Catechism, with the possibility that a an unbaptized infant could die, lay baptisms (often covert, and without the consent of the parents) were performed so that the infant could be unambiguously numbered among the elect. In the Baltimore Catechism, there is actually a procedure described whereby a lay baptism could be performed. Any baptised Christian could perform this sacrament if the rubrics were followed. Being without sin, including original, the dead baptized infant goes immediately to heaven to enjoy the beatific vision. In the old system, the unbaptised infants went to limbo (a Thomistic theologumena no longer taught by the post-Vatican II church), or to hell (Augustine or the Orthodox Council of Jerusalem).

Note, historically, in missions where Catholics did not have access to weekly masses except when visited by a missionary priest - sacraments such as baptism or marriage were performed by laypeople, and then conditionally redone when the priest visited town. There was no mass but people still assembled on Sunday and prayed together.
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« Reply #1272 on: April 19, 2010, 02:52:18 PM »

Fr Giryus, it really is very important for you and other readers of this thread to understand that Fr Ambrose is NOT well acquainted with Catholic theology.  As well demonstrated, not only in this thread but in other conversations both on this forum and others, his knowledge of magisterial Catholic teaching is distorted by his own polemical and ideological commitments.  He presents us with a caricature in which few Catholics outside of the schismatic Society of St Pius X (SSPX) recognize themselves.  Fr Ambrose can proof-text as many documents as he wants, but you and I both know how dangerous and misinformed such proof-texting can be.  Fr Ambrose's proof-texting is akin to the kind of proof-texting practiced by biblical fundamentalists.  All ecclesial texts, whether biblical, patristic, conciliar, papal, or whatever, need to be read within their proper historical and theological context, as well as within the developing mind of the Church.  Please trust me:  John Paul II, Benedict XVI, and the Catholic Catechism are infinitely more reliable guides to Catholic belief than Fr Ambrose. 

Thank you for this conversation.  It appears to have come to its natural end.         


Dear Fr. Alvin,

First, I'm not sure who Fr. Ambrose is.

Second, I'm very sorry that this is ending when I was just starting to get a handle on how the RCC understands doctrine, particularly in this situation.

I have tried to be transparent with my own 'bias' (i.e. how I have been taught to look at doctrine), while at the same time wrestling with what you are saying.

It seems to me that there are some similarities between our two sides, but I also think there are differences and important ones at that because they ultimately trace back to the character of God, the nature of human sin, the means of salvation, etc.

I am less inclined to dismiss Irish Hermit's quotations because they seem to summarize the texts I am now digging into.

Dear Papist,

Thank you for making your intentions more clear.  God forgives!  However, please be careful.  Persoanlly, I'm never very comfortable about shouting insults in print.
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« Reply #1273 on: April 19, 2010, 03:03:50 PM »



Dear Fr. Alvin,

First, I'm not sure who Fr. Ambrose is.

Second, I'm very sorry that this is ending when I was just starting to get a handle on how the RCC understands doctrine, particularly in this situation.

I have tried to be transparent with my own 'bias' (i.e. how I have been taught to look at doctrine), while at the same time wrestling with what you are saying.

It seems to me that there are some similarities between our two sides, but I also think there are differences and important ones at that because they ultimately trace back to the character of God, the nature of human sin, the means of salvation, etc.

I am less inclined to dismiss Irish Hermit's quotations because they seem to summarize the texts I am now digging into.


How can the thread end?  Smiley  It is three years old already and just about time to start over!!  laugh

I am an eastern Catholic, Father.  Just so you don't get me confused with some other saint  angel

What texts are you digging into at the moment?

Mary
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« Reply #1274 on: April 19, 2010, 03:57:52 PM »

I have not condemned the RCC to utter darkness, and am disappointed that Fr. Alvin thinks the conversation is over when I have not yet figured out how the RCC makes such decisions.  The fact is I raised reasonable questions, and you accuse me of cult-like behavior.

Fr Giryus, I certainly do not want to disappoint you, but may I suggest that discussion of the Catholic understanding of authority and the way Catholicism develops, refines, and corrects its doctrinal teaching would be best done in a thread dedicated to that topic. 

Catholic theologians vigorously debate all matters relating to doctrine and authority.  Perhaps they have always done so, but that debate has become acute since Vatican II.  At one end of the spectrum one has progressive Catholics who see Vatican II as authorizing radical departure from the doctrinal tradition; at the other end one has the SSPX (and apparently Fr Ambrose) who see Vatican II and the teachings of JPII and Benedict as representing a radical rupture with the past.  And in the middle one finds John Paul II, Benedict XVI, and the Catholic Catechism interpreting Vatican II in continuity with the past, even while inaugurating a reform of Catholic theology and practice.  The Catholic Church is a theological debating society.  The boundaries are fairly easy to identify--and there are boundaries--but within those boundaries opinions on theological issues can vary greatly.  There is both stability and fluidity.  That may be frustrating to outsiders (as well as converts to Catholicism who are looking for doctrinal uniformity), but that's simply the way things are in the Catholic Church as it really is.  Just ask the Dominicans, Franciscans, and Jesuits--as the Methodist theologian Stanley Hauerwas has quipped, only the Pope could have kept them in the same Church.

Two Catholics, three opinions. 

The Catholic Church does believe that doctrine can develop.  This means, therefore, that it is never quite sufficient to quote texts from the past, as if that settles everything.  Cardinal Manning (no progressive he!) powerfully asserted the Catholic understanding:

Quote
It was the charge of the Reformers that the Catholic doctrines were not primitive, and their pretension was to revert to antiquity. But the appeal to antiquity is both a treason and a heresy. It is a treason because it rejects the Divine voice of the Church at this hour, and a heresy because it denies that voice to be Divine.

As soon as I perceived … that the Holy Spirit … has united himself indissolubly to the … Church of Jesus Christ, I saw at once that the interpretations or doctrines of the living Church are true because Divine…. I then saw that all appeals to … Scripture and antiquity, whether by individuals or by local churches, are no more than appeals from the Divine voice of the living Church, and therefore essentially rationalistic.

The appeal from the living voice of the Church to any tribunal whatsoever, human history included, is an act of private judgment and a treason because that living voice is supreme; and to appeal from that supreme voice is also a heresy because that voice by divine assistance is infallible.
     
This quote might provide a good starting point for discussion (in another thread!).  Not all Catholics would agree with it, yet it does capture something of Catholic self-understanding.  Most Catholics would disagree with Manning's Ultramontanism and would propose a more diffuse understanding of ecclesial authority, yet Catholics are confident that overtime the Spirit guides the Church in the truth.  Thus Newman:
 
Quote
“Doctrine cannot but develop as time proceeds and need arises…. [These] developments are parts of the Divine system, and … therefore it is lawful, or rather necessary, to interpret the words and deeds of the earlier Church by the determinate teaching of the latter” (An Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine I.4.3.Cool

Or as Richard John Neuhaus expressed the matter:
 
Quote
Councils can err, said the Reformers. No, says the Catholic Church, but the Church's teaching lives forward, and no definition, including that of councils, is entirely adequate to the whole of the truth. The Catholic Church has always taught with St. Paul that now, as he says in 1 Corinthians 13, we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now we know in part; then we shall understand fully, even as we have been fully understood. Along the way to that eschatological fullness—which is a frequently jagged, confusing, and conflicted way—it is promised to the Church that she will not, she will not irretrievably, lose the way. It is not everything that we might want, but it is enough; it is more than enough.

As I said earlier, you are on safe grounds relying on the Catholic Catechism and Popes John Paul and Benedict as faithful interpreters of Catholic doctrine.  Regarding the topic at hand, namely, Purgatory, begin with the papal encyclical Spe Salvi.  Papal encyclicals enjoy a fairly high level of authority within the Catholic doctrinal system.  There is nothing novel about Benedict's presentation--at least it's not novel to anyone who is acquainted with Catholic theological reflection during the fifty years. 

Anyway, if you (not you specifically, Fr Giryus, but the Orthodox members of this forum) want to discuss the Catholic understanding of authority and the development of doctrine, then let's do so in another thread.  If you want to discuss Purgatory, then take the teachings of the Catholic Catechism, John Paul II, and Benedict XVI as your authoritative beginning point.  I'm not going to argue with folks who want to insist that the SSPX represents real Catholicism.  That really is an intra-Catholic debate, and it should not be played out on an Orthodox forum.  Just as Catholics should not tell Orthodox what they believe, or should believe, about toll-houses, so Orthodox should not tell Catholics what they believe, or should believe, about Purgatory. 
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« Reply #1275 on: April 19, 2010, 04:55:06 PM »

Am I drinking 'Kool-Aide' merely because we disagree?

The basis for your ad hominem is that we are somehow irrational.  I don't think you can make such an accusation, particularly when I have asked for and not seen a response to the questions I have raised (in a polite, non-confrontational fashion, as best I can) the matters regarding the development of doctrine in the RCC and the right of the Pope to change, refine, etc. said doctrine.

I have not condemned the RCC to utter darkness, and am disappointed that Fr. Alvin thinks the conversation is over when I have not yet figured out how the RCC makes such decisions.  The fact is I raised reasonable questions, and you accuse me of cult-like behavior.

If you wonder why there is schism in Christianity, then look at your own response to what was a civil discourse.
Dear FatherGiryus: I just wanted to take the time to let you know that I have found your comments and posts to be helpful in understanding the Orthodox perspective on these matters.  I have read and appreciated the enlightening discussions between you and others especially Father Alvin and I hope that they will continue.
thanks a lot.
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« Reply #1276 on: April 19, 2010, 05:03:53 PM »



Catholic theologians vigorously debate all matters relating to doctrine and authority.  Perhaps they have always done so, but that debate has become acute since Vatican II.  At one end of the spectrum one has progressive Catholics who see Vatican II as authorizing radical departure from the doctrinal tradition; at the other end one has the SSPX (and apparently Fr Ambrose) who see Vatican II and the teachings of JPII and Benedict as representing a radical rupture with the past.  And in the middle one finds John Paul II, Benedict XVI, and the Catholic Catechism interpreting Vatican II in continuity with the past, even while inaugurating a reform of Catholic theology and practice. 

Dear Father Al,

For some time now I've been meaning to suggest to you that your assessment of Catholic "development of doctrine" makes me a tad discomfited, not because you are wrong in many of the things you say, but because you tend to leave out the teachings of many Catholic saints and doctors over time, who when taken in the singular or in a pater-mony or mater-mony of teaching on a particular subject tend to illustrate the core teaching as well as the metaphoric teachings alive in the Church over a period of time.

In other words, there is a thread of teaching in the west that deals with purgation and purgatory in very lurid material and spatial terms.  There is also a history of the same kind of after-death visions available in the east but it is most often ignored.

And then there is another approach to purification that is far more closely aligned with the idea that hell and purgatory and heaven are not so much places as they are modes of being.

One needs to be careful in all this not to destroy the very clear teaching east and west on the resurrection of a body...not just a spiritual body but a real body with form and mass.  We know little about it but we have taught from ancient times that body is more than just spirit.

So there's a need to have both teachings alive and well in the Church, and we have saints, as well as formal documents that carry that through.

So to give the impression that somehow in the mid to latter part of the 20th century, the Catholic Church finally came around to her full understanding of purgatory and purgation, is a bit misleading, and ignores a huge part of her tradition.

I say this in all good will and with no little trepidation for I do not seek to offend!!

EM
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« Reply #1277 on: April 19, 2010, 05:10:38 PM »

Christ is Risen, Alleluia

"You must also discuss carefully how much efficacy there is in indulgences; how great is the fruit of remission, not only of the canonical but also of the temporal punishment due for sins; and finally, how much aid from the treasure of merits from Christ and the saints may be applied to those who died truly penitent before they had made adequate satisfaction for their sins. Their souls must be purified in the fires of purgatory so that entry into the eternal fatherland may open to them"

Pope Leo XII, 1824
Encyclical On the Universal Jubilee


So far we are finding a consistent teaching on Purgatory spanning the centuries from Thomas Aquinas who died in 1274, the 17th Ecumenical Council of Florence which closed in 1445, then Pope Benedict XIV in 1749, and then Pope Leo XII in 1824 and up to Pope Paul VI in 1967 - it is fully consistent.  It is about remitting the punishment of sin by fire and torment.

This is only the tip of the evidential iceberg and we can easily add in other Popes and other Councils and many theologians from earlier centuries.

I am, personally, not in denial of this... are others here in denial of this? As much as 'we' cling to our own sins... is as much as the cleansing fire of the presence of the Almighty we be truly a torment... until that point that 'we' release our grasping of it.
Christ is Risen, Alleluia

Dear Ignatius,

What you have said is not directly connected with the teaching of the Popes, the Councils and the theologians ands Saints as given in several messages above.  They are NOT speaking about the fires and torments of purgatory detaching a soul from attachment to sin.  They see the fires as punitive, as the punishment justly imposed by God which is the payment for the temporal punishment due to past sins.  The soul may or may not still be attached to these sins.

Hi Father,

When the currently Pope Benedict XVI was Cardinal Ratzinger he penned an article on Purgatory in Our Sunday Visitor's Catholic Encyclopedia Revised Edition which uses the exact analogy.
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« Reply #1278 on: April 19, 2010, 09:55:40 PM »

Sorry. Message deleted. Placed in wrong thread
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« Reply #1279 on: April 19, 2010, 10:21:22 PM »

[Fr Giryus, it really is very important for you and other readers of this thread to understand that Fr Ambrose is NOT well acquainted with Catholic theology. 
Christ is Risen, Alleluia

Dear Father Kimel,

I had a look at your bio and I see you joined the Roman Catholic Church only five years ago.  And your writings here make it quite plain that you have simply accepted hook, line, and sinker modern post-Vatican II reconstructionist teachings without much knowledge of the earlier and sometimes quite disparate teachings of the past 900 years of Roman Catholicism.I believe a good grasp of the earlier doctrine, from Pope, Councils, Saints and theologians, is essential to balance the modern doctrine.

The lack of knowledge of what was taught right up until 40 years ago, until Vatican II, makes it frustrating to try and converse with you.

My own knowledge of the theology of Roman Catholicism was fundamentally formed in the years prior to Vatican II (and immediately after) and includes tertiary studies. 

 
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« Reply #1280 on: April 19, 2010, 10:35:24 PM »


Having read your posts and then Irish Hermit's research of previous Popes' statements on the matter, I see a disconnect that, while admirable, still represents something of a departure from Traditional RCC teaching and doctrine.  Yes, this departure brings the two sides closer, but the fact that many RCs will not admit that RCC doctrine has changed over the years is rather problematic.

Dear Father Giryus,

You have summarised, succinctly and in your customary irenical way, the two points which I have been hitting on again and again in this discussion.  Thank you!

1.  Roman Catholic doctrine has changed

2.  Clever argumentation is smployed to disguise the fact that doctrinal change has occurred.

I'd like to point out again that it is only Roman Catholic doctrine which has changed on this point since the 23 sui juris Eastern Catholic Churches adhere to Orthodox theology on this matter and, in contradistinction to their Mother Church of Rome, do not teach Purgatory.

There is an earlier message which should help people to get a grip on the reconstruction which is underway.  Please see message (1211) about this
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13820.msg424522.html#msg424522



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« Reply #1281 on: April 19, 2010, 10:44:16 PM »


Dear Father Kimel,

I had a look at your bio and I see you joined the Roman Catholic Church only five years ago.  And your writings here make it quite plain that you have simply accepted hook, line, and sinker modern post-Vatican II reconstructionist teachings without much knowledge of the earlier and sometimes quite disparate teachings of the past 900 years of Roman Catholicism.I believe a good grasp of the earlier doctrine, from Pope, Councils, Saints and theologians, is essential to balance the modern doctrine.

The lack of knowledge of what was taught right up until 40 years ago, until Vatican II, makes it frustrating to try and converse with you.

My own knowledge of the theology of Roman Catholicism was fundamentally formed in the years prior to Vatican II (and immediately after) and includes tertiary studies. 

Father Ambrose,

You have no love for the Catholic Church.  It is very personal and it is bitter.  There's nobody on the Internet more saddened by that fact than I am.  You could be a great influence for the good with respect to the resumption of communion of our respective confessions but you have chosen over the decade or more that I have known you to do precisely the opposite and sometimes with a vengeance.

You offer a particularly narrow and cramped view of the LONG run of Catholic teaching concerning the particular judgment and you have had an education and experiential exposure to Catholic teaching that is equal to, and perhaps surpasses that which Father Kimel has had over the years.  But you still refuse to be more accurate in your portrayal of Catholic teaching particularly with respect to the judgment of souls.  You choose to ignore all but the most Jansenist of presentations of Catholic teaching.  The worse it looks to others the better you like it and it shows.

You even reject much of Orthodoxy's various teachings concerning the particular and final judgments because you cannot stand the thought of the consequences of sin being more than a slap on the wrist and a stay in a nice clean hospital suite on a puffy cloud somewhere.

This personal bias in you is intrinsic to your argumentation here and anywhere you go when this issue arises.   You have quite a nerve playing off my note to try to diminish Father Al and I don't respect this part of you.   I can't because I know you know better.

Mary
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« Reply #1282 on: April 19, 2010, 10:52:57 PM »


First, I'm not sure who Fr. Ambrose is.



Tonsured a monk in Serbia in Tito's day, back in 1979.  Monastery of Zica. Ordained a priest.

Transferred by the bishops to the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad in 1996.

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« Reply #1283 on: April 19, 2010, 11:09:04 PM »

Father Ambrose,

You have no love for the Catholic Church.  It is very personal and it is bitter. 
Mary

Christ is Risen, Alleluia
 
Dear Mary,

That is a personal judgement and a subjective one.  It is wrong.

What angers me is not Catholicism but the dishonest attempts of modern Roman Catholics to expunge their past theological teaching and make out that it never existed.

One example - I lunched on Saturday with some Catholic priests.  One young one informed me that Catholics have never prayed to Mary but simply with her and through her, asking her intercessions.   This is so manifestly false as to be laughable.  But it was what he was taught during his studies leading up to ordination.  An older priest in his 60s told him that he was wrong, that the modern emphasis is certainly not to pray TO Mary, but that it was the norm in the past and it is still quite permissible.  The younger chap would not believe him.  I found it frightening that for him theology begins in 1990!! 

I see that you have expressed your own discomfit with this type of thing in a post up above.   
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« Reply #1284 on: April 19, 2010, 11:20:59 PM »

...There's nobody on the Internet more saddened by that fact than I am.  You could be a great influence for the good with respect to the resumption of communion of our respective confessions but you have chosen over the decade or more that I have known you to do precisely the opposite and sometimes with a vengeance.

You offer a particularly narrow and cramped view of the LONG run of Catholic teaching concerning the particular judgment and you have had an education and experiential exposure to Catholic teaching that is equal to, and perhaps surpasses that which Father Kimel has had over the years.


Dear Mary, this thread has become so long that I no longer remember just where I posted earlier messages, such as:   

Within its own sphere the Roman Catholic Church does a reasonable work of teaching its people about Christ, as do the Anglican and Lutheran Churches, the Methodists and Baptists.

But within the context of its relationship through the centuries with the Orthodox Church, Catholicism has brought us only sorrow, destruction and aggression.  It has proven to be as much an enemy of the Church of Christ as the Muslims and the Communists.  Has it repented?  Has it reformed? Has it been able to assume an entirely different mindset?  We really do not know.

My mentor in these things was the ever-memorable and holy Archimandrite of the Monastery of Cheliye, Fr Justin Popovich (died 1979), one of the 20th century's best theologians and spiritual fathers.  His writings on the deleterious effect of the Catholic Church on the Orthodox Church are unashamedly honest.  Despite his holiness I can imagine that if he were writing on Internet forums these days the Moderators would not know how to handle him!   laugh

You may remember that I wrote to you once of the doubt and suspicion described by Metropolitan Anthony Bloom of London in his summation of the Catholic-Orthodox dialogue.  What he said is worth noting since he was a Russian hierarch who had actively participated for decades in the ecumenical dialogue between the Orthodox and Catholics.   His view is a not uncommon one within Orthodoxy and it merits consideration in the ecumenical encounter.

He was unable to attend the annual Synod in Moscow in 1997 and he made a written report to the Patriarch and Holy Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church and in part his report reads:

"Our relationship with Roman Catholicism

"It is time we realised that Rome is only interested in extinguishing Orthodoxy.
Theological encounters and 'accords' on the basis of texts lead us up a blind alley,
for behind them there looms a firm resolve of the Vatican to swallow up the Orthodox Church."


"Sourozh" the diocesan magazine of the UK Russian diocese:
Metr. Anthony of Sourozh, "A Letter to Patriarch Alexis of Moscow and All
Russia", SOUROZH, 69 (August 1997), 17-22.


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« Reply #1285 on: April 19, 2010, 11:25:49 PM »


I am an eastern Catholic, Father. 

Christ is Risen, Alleluia

Dear Mary,

In an earlier message I wrote that I was hopeful that some members of the Eastern Catholic Churches would contribute to this thread.

May I ask,

1.  In which Eastern Catholic Church are you canonically enrolled?

2.  What does your Church teach on Purgatory?  Official statements would be super.
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« Reply #1286 on: April 19, 2010, 11:26:28 PM »

Father Ambrose,

You have no love for the Catholic Church.  It is very personal and it is bitter. 
Mary

Christ is Risen, Alleluia
 
Dear Mary,

That is a personal judgement and a subjective one.  It is wrong.

What angers me is not Catholicism but the dishonest attempts of modern Roman Catholics to expunge their past theological teaching and make out that it never existed.

One example - I lunched on Saturday with some Catholic priests.  One young one informed me that Catholics have never prayed to Mary but simply with her and through her, asking her intercessions.   This is so manifestly false as to be laughable.  But it was what he was taught during his studies leading up to ordination.  An older priest in his 60s told him that he was wrong, that the modern emphasis is certainly not to pray TO Mary, but that it was the norm in the past and it is still quite permissible.  The younger chap would not believe him.  I found it frightening that for him theology begins in 1990!! 

I see that you have expressed your own discomfit with this type of thing in a post up above.   
It is true to a certain extent. I was at a Mass not too long ago and the priest said that Catholics never pray to Mary but through Mary.  After the Mass, I mentioned to the priest that I pray directly to Mary all the time, and I don't see anything wrong with it. He said that he had to get a donut and talk to a lady there.
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« Reply #1287 on: April 19, 2010, 11:30:35 PM »

You even reject much of Orthodoxy's various teachings concerning the particular and final judgments

Mary, I find that just so shocking.  It is tantamount to an accusation of heresy against me.  Please be specific and lay out what you mean.
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« Reply #1288 on: April 19, 2010, 11:31:50 PM »

 "Our relationship with Roman Catholicism

"It is time we realised that Rome is only interested in extinguishing Orthodoxy.
Theological encounters and 'accords' on the basis of texts lead us up a blind alley,
for behind them there looms a firm resolve of the Vatican to swallow up the Orthodox Church."


"Sourozh" the diocesan magazine of the UK Russian diocese:
Metr. Anthony of Sourozh, "A Letter to Patriarch Alexis of Moscow and All
Russia", SOUROZH, 69 (August 1997), 17-22.




I hope that this is not true. My general impression is that as Catholics become more acquainted with the Eastern Churches, they grow in admiration and respect for these Eastern Churches and for their congregations.  
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« Reply #1289 on: April 19, 2010, 11:33:38 PM »


Dear Mary, this thread has become so long that I no longer remember just where I posted earlier messages, such as:   

Within its own sphere the Roman Catholic Church does a reasonable work of teaching its people about Christ, as do the Anglican and Lutheran Churches, the Methodists and Baptists.

But within the context of its relationship through the centuries with the Orthodox Church, Catholicism has brought us only sorrow, destruction and aggression.  It has proven to be as much an enemy of the Church of Christ as the Muslims and the Communists.  Has it repented?  Has it reformed? Has it been able to assume an entirely different mindset?  We really do not know.

My mentor in these things was the ever-memorable and holy Archimandrite of the Monastery of Cheliye, Fr Justin Popovich (died 1979), one of the 20th century's best theologians and spiritual fathers.  His writings on the deleterious effect of the Catholic Church on the Orthodox Church are unashamedly honest.  Despite his holiness I can imagine that if he were writing on Internet forums these days the Moderators would not know how to handle him!   laugh

You may remember that I wrote to you once of the doubt and suspicion described by Metropolitan Anthony Bloom of London in his summation of the Catholic-Orthodox dialogue.  What he said is worth noting since he was a Russian hierarch who had actively participated for decades in the ecumenical dialogue between the Orthodox and Catholics.   His view is a not uncommon one within Orthodoxy and it merits consideration in the ecumenical encounter.

He was unable to attend the annual Synod in Moscow in 1997 and he made a written report to the Patriarch and Holy Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church and in part his report reads:

"Our relationship with Roman Catholicism

"It is time we realised that Rome is only interested in extinguishing Orthodoxy.
Theological encounters and 'accords' on the basis of texts lead us up a blind alley,
for behind them there looms a firm resolve of the Vatican to swallow up the Orthodox Church."


"Sourozh" the diocesan magazine of the UK Russian diocese:
Metr. Anthony of Sourozh, "A Letter to Patriarch Alexis of Moscow and All
Russia", SOUROZH, 69 (August 1997), 17-22.





This is all polemics, Father.  The fourth century saw terrible aggression on the part of Justinian up through Italy all the way to Britain, killing and forcing conversions of the Arian Goths that was unprecedented.  The pope sacrificed his own good health and life to go to Constantinople and begged Justinian not to attack Italy much less the rest of Europe and Britain.  Justinian's wife had just placed a heretic on the Patriarchal throne so please don't tell me that the invasion of Italy and Europe by Constantinople was justified because the Goths were heretics.  It was a grab for territory and power and nothing more and the killing was massive...in the name of Byzantium and Orthodoxy...eh?  The pope died in Constantinople and the rest is history. 

The idea that Orthodoxy or eastern Catholic/Orthodox Caesaropapism was some pastoral heaven on earth is just bad history!!

http://irenikontheskete.blogspot.com/2010/04/popes-and-princes-of-men.html

M.
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« Reply #1290 on: April 19, 2010, 11:36:14 PM »

You even reject much of Orthodoxy's various teachings concerning the particular and final judgments

Mary, I find that just so shocking.  It is tantamount to an accusation of heresy against me.  Please be specific and lay out what you mean.

You will just have to remain shocked, Father.  You and I both know how this all plays out.  We've been at it for years, you and I have. 

You have the upper hand among unsympathetic Orthodox, but that does not make you right.

Mary
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« Reply #1291 on: April 19, 2010, 11:55:12 PM »


Dear Mary, this thread has become so long that I no longer remember just where I posted earlier messages, such as:   

Within its own sphere the Roman Catholic Church does a reasonable work of teaching its people about Christ, as do the Anglican and Lutheran Churches, the Methodists and Baptists.

But within the context of its relationship through the centuries with the Orthodox Church, Catholicism has brought us only sorrow, destruction and aggression.  It has proven to be as much an enemy of the Church of Christ as the Muslims and the Communists.  Has it repented?  Has it reformed? Has it been able to assume an entirely different mindset?  We really do not know.

My mentor in these things was the ever-memorable and holy Archimandrite of the Monastery of Cheliye, Fr Justin Popovich (died 1979), one of the 20th century's best theologians and spiritual fathers.  His writings on the deleterious effect of the Catholic Church on the Orthodox Church are unashamedly honest.  Despite his holiness I can imagine that if he were writing on Internet forums these days the Moderators would not know how to handle him!   laugh

You may remember that I wrote to you once of the doubt and suspicion described by Metropolitan Anthony Bloom of London in his summation of the Catholic-Orthodox dialogue.  What he said is worth noting since he was a Russian hierarch who had actively participated for decades in the ecumenical dialogue between the Orthodox and Catholics.   His view is a not uncommon one within Orthodoxy and it merits consideration in the ecumenical encounter.

He was unable to attend the annual Synod in Moscow in 1997 and he made a written report to the Patriarch and Holy Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church and in part his report reads:

"Our relationship with Roman Catholicism

"It is time we realised that Rome is only interested in extinguishing Orthodoxy.
Theological encounters and 'accords' on the basis of texts lead us up a blind alley,
for behind them there looms a firm resolve of the Vatican to swallow up the Orthodox Church."


"Sourozh" the diocesan magazine of the UK Russian diocese:
Metr. Anthony of Sourozh, "A Letter to Patriarch Alexis of Moscow and All
Russia", SOUROZH, 69 (August 1997), 17-22.





This is all polemics, Father.  .
Christ is Risen, Alleluia

Unfortunately, it is not.  Within Orthodoxy there is a deep-seated fear of Roman Catholicism.  It has been conditioned by long centuries of aggression - the Crusades, the 60 year occupation of Constantinople, the bloodbath in Jerusalem, the attempt to fragment and destroy Orthodoxy by the creation of parallel look-alike Churches in many Orthodox countries (always accompanied by violence), the Croatian policy in WWII of "kill 1/3 of the Orthodox, convert 1/3, and marry 1/3."   

Things such as this have become an integral part of Orthodoxy's innermost psyche when they think of Roman Catholics.  Brushing it aside as polemics damages the bilateral dialogue because it does not acknowledge a deep-rooted problem in our relationship which cries out for attention. 

Pope John Paul II spoke often of the "healing of memory."  The Orthodox attitude could be summed up in the well-known words of Patriarch Pavle of Serbia when he dedicated the monument at the Jasenovac concentration camp in Croatia - "Forgive we must, forget we dare not."  Oprostiti moramo, zaboraviti ne smemo.
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« Reply #1292 on: April 20, 2010, 12:00:54 AM »

You even reject much of Orthodoxy's various teachings concerning the particular and final judgments

Mary, I find that just so shocking.  It is tantamount to an accusation of heresy against me.  Please be specific and lay out what you mean.

You will just have to remain shocked, Father. 

Not at all like you, Mary, to be unable to explain what you mean.   Huh
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« Reply #1293 on: April 20, 2010, 12:05:17 AM »

This is all polemics, Father.  .
Christ is Risen, Alleluia

Unfortunately, it is not.  Within Orthodoxy there is a deep-seated fear of Roman Catholicism.  It has been conditioned by long centuries of aggression - the Crusades, the 60 year occupation of Constantinople, the bloodbath in Jerusalem, the attempt to fragment and destroy Orthodoxy by the creation of parallel look-alike Churches in many Orthodox countries (always accompanied by violence), the Croatian policy in WWII of "kill 1/3 of the Orthodox, convert 1/3, and marry 1/3."   

Things such as this have become an integral part of Orthodoxy's innermost psyche when they think of Roman Catholics.  Brushing it aside as polemics damages the bilateral dialogue because it does not acknowledge a deep-rooted problem in our relationship which cries out for attention. 

Pope John Paul II spoke often of the "healing of memory."  The Orthodox attitude could be summed up in the well-known words of Patriarch Pavle of Serbia when he dedicated the monument at the Jasenovac concentration camp in Croatia - "Forgive we must, forget we dare not."  Oprostiti moramo, zaboraviti ne smemo.
[/quote]

Your Serbian roots are showing.  Even some of this is also polemics.

Keep feeding the Wolf, Father.  Keep feeding the Wolf.

But it was St. Symeon who said we must not old forgive but we must also forget, or we'll never achieve purity.  The purification of memory is essential for theosis.

Can you tell me how many thousands of Venetians, men, women and children were butchered in Constantinople before the Crusaders came there.  Why is it that you never mention that small detail of  that tragic sequence....?

Mary

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« Reply #1294 on: April 20, 2010, 12:12:05 AM »


Can you tell me how many thousands of Venetians, men, women and children were butchered in Constantinople before the Crusaders came there.  Why is it that you never mention that small detail of  that tragic sequence....?


I don't know the figures.  Do you have them available?

Were the anti-Italian riots in Constantinople precipitated by the Byzantine reaction to the persecution being endured in the Byzantine provinces and diocese of southern Italy where the Liturgy was being forbidden and unleavened bread imposed, monasteries shut down?
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« Reply #1295 on: April 20, 2010, 12:21:36 AM »

Your Serbian roots are showing.  Even some of this is also polemics.

Keep feeding the Wolf, Father.  Keep feeding the Wolf.


I suppose that my Russian roots are also showing with the quote from Metropolitan Anthony Bloom (above, in violet ink.)  Was it not an exercise of his episcopal charism to lift up his voice and warn the Russian Church of Roman Catholicism's desires for Orthodoxy

"Thy watchmen shall lift up the voice..."
Isaiah 52:8
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« Reply #1296 on: April 20, 2010, 12:25:25 AM »

  Within Orthodoxy there is a deep-seated fear of Roman Catholicism. 
Let us suppose for the discussion that what you say is completely true.
What then should Catholics or the Catholic Church do in order to at least alleviate this fear to some extent?
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« Reply #1297 on: April 20, 2010, 12:40:08 AM »

  Within Orthodoxy there is a deep-seated fear of Roman Catholicism.
Let us suppose for the discussion that what you say is completely true.
What then should Catholics or the Catholic Church do in order to at least alleviate this fear to some extent?

The Eastern Catholics should return to their mother Churches.

The Roman Catholics -- I do not know
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« Reply #1298 on: April 20, 2010, 12:46:59 AM »

  Within Orthodoxy there is a deep-seated fear of Roman Catholicism.
Let us suppose for the discussion that what you say is completely true.
What then should Catholics or the Catholic Church do in order to at least alleviate this fear to some extent?

The Eastern Catholics should return to their mother Churches.

The Roman Catholics -- I do not know
Dear Father Ambrose:
     A lot of Catholics are uncomfortable with the present situation as you have described it.  There has to be a way of alleviating this fear.
Thank you, Father Ambrose. 
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« Reply #1299 on: April 20, 2010, 12:59:11 AM »

You even reject much of Orthodoxy's various teachings concerning the particular and final judgments

Mary, I find that just so shocking.  It is tantamount to an accusation of heresy against me.  Please be specific and lay out what you mean.

You will just have to remain shocked, Father.  You and I both know how this all plays out.  We've been at it for years, you and I have.  

You have the upper hand among unsympathetic Orthodox, but that does not make you right.

Mary

Dear Mary,

Your registration date to the Forum is March 28, 2010.  How can you have been 'at it for years' with Father when you just got here.  Or, are you an old member with a new identity?

Now I'm confused.
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« Reply #1300 on: April 20, 2010, 02:51:03 AM »

You even reject much of Orthodoxy's various teachings concerning the particular and final judgments

Mary, I find that just so shocking.  It is tantamount to an accusation of heresy against me.  Please be specific and lay out what you mean.

You will just have to remain shocked, Father.  You and I both know how this all plays out.  We've been at it for years, you and I have.  

You have the upper hand among unsympathetic Orthodox, but that does not make you right.

Mary

Dear Mary,

Your registration date to the Forum is March 28, 2010.  How can you have been 'at it for years' with Father when you just got here.  Or, are you an old member with a new identity?

Now I'm confused.

Fr. Ambrose has been quite active on a number of Internet forums both Orthodox and Catholic.  It's quite likely that he and Mary sparred with each other on one or more of those other forums.
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« Reply #1301 on: April 20, 2010, 03:06:02 AM »

You even reject much of Orthodoxy's various teachings concerning the particular and final judgments

Mary, I find that just so shocking.  It is tantamount to an accusation of heresy against me.  Please be specific and lay out what you mean.

You will just have to remain shocked, Father.  You and I both know how this all plays out.  We've been at it for years, you and I have. 

You have the upper hand among unsympathetic Orthodox, but that does not make you right.

Mary

Dear Mary,

Your registration date to the Forum is March 28, 2010.  How can you have been 'at it for years' with Father when you just got here.  Or, are you an old member with a new identity?

Now I'm confused.

Fr. Ambrose has been quite active on a number of Internet forums both Orthodox and Catholic.  It's quite likely that he and Mary sparred with each other on one or more of those other forums.

Oh no!  Mary and I have worked well together in combatting the eucharistic heresies held by some priests.

But in the matter of the likelihood of Catholic-Orthodox union she is far more optimistic than I.  But still, the lack of unity pains both of us deeply.   I regard her as a dear sister and apprecaite her theological knowledge.  We have not yet had the blessing of seeing the depth of her scholarship on this particular forum.
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« Reply #1302 on: April 20, 2010, 09:25:14 AM »

Father Ambrose,
 So far, three Catholics on this thread have criticized your method as being either dihonest or extremely biased. The witnesses against your immoral approach are gathering and a case against you is building. Will you accept this reality and repent of your sin or will continue to persist in it? I pray for your sake that you repent.

That being said, it is interesting that we are not doing this to the other Eastern Orthodox in the forum. You are the only one.

I will be praying for you.
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« Reply #1303 on: April 20, 2010, 09:27:02 AM »

You even reject much of Orthodoxy's various teachings concerning the particular and final judgments

Mary, I find that just so shocking.  It is tantamount to an accusation of heresy against me.  Please be specific and lay out what you mean.
I think it is heresy Fr. A. The scriptures are clear on the matter.
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« Reply #1304 on: April 20, 2010, 09:28:19 AM »



Unfortunately, it is not.  Within Orthodoxy there is a deep-seated fear of Roman Catholicism.  It has been conditioned by long centuries of aggression - the Crusades, the 60 year occupation of Constantinople, the bloodbath in Jerusalem, the attempt to fragment and destroy Orthodoxy by the creation of parallel look-alike Churches in many Orthodox countries (always accompanied by violence), the Croatian policy in WWII of "kill 1/3 of the Orthodox, convert 1/3, and marry 1/3."   

Things such as this have become an integral part of Orthodoxy's innermost psyche when they think of Roman Catholics.  Brushing it aside as polemics damages the bilateral dialogue because it does not acknowledge a deep-rooted problem in our relationship which cries out for attention. 

Pope John Paul II spoke often of the "healing of memory."  The Orthodox attitude could be summed up in the well-known words of Patriarch Pavle of Serbia when he dedicated the monument at the Jasenovac concentration camp in Croatia - "Forgive we must, forget we dare not."  Oprostiti moramo, zaboraviti ne smemo.
And this is why devout Catholics don't respect you Father A.
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