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Author Topic: "Catholic (ish)" an explanation  (Read 4995 times) Average Rating: 0
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Carole
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« on: December 06, 2007, 09:53:04 AM »

I've seen it referenced in at least one thread (in a pejorative way) and I've been asked privately why the Faith category in my profile reads "Roman Catholic (ish)."  As I think on it this morning I realize that it could be seen as offensive by some and I thought I'd explain myself for anyone who is confused or offended.

That statement is my attempt at some levity regarding my current crisis of faith.  I am, technically, Roman Catholic.  But I am a very confused Roman Catholic.  I attended a Ruthenian parish for more than 2 years and fell in love with the Eastern Divine Liturgy.  In trying to learn more about the Eastern Rites of the Catholic Church I kept being given Orthodox books to read.  That led me to a great appreciation of Orthodoxy.

Which puts me where I am now.

Too Eastern to feel "right" in a Roman parish.  Too sympathetic to the Orthodox understanding of several key issues to really be fully Catholic - yet still too Catholic to be fully comfortable leaving the Catholic Church to become Orthodox.

So I'm Catholic-ish.  Somewhere between Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox.  A limbo of sorts.

Hope that helps.
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Carole
TinaG
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« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2007, 10:06:10 AM »

So I'm Catholic-ish.  Somewhere between Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox.  A limbo of sorts.
Hope that helps.

A perfectly reasonable and well thought out explanation of the position you currently find yourself in.  There are many many people on OC Net who are in faith Catholi-ish, Evangelical-ish, Protestant-ish, etc..., but who have not chosen to so clearly label their position with a tag.  OC Net is a forum for all the "ish-es" out there.  So I don't know why you need to put up with anyone hassling you about a screen name tag that I just can't see is so horribly offensive.  In case anyone needs a new tag, here are a few for anyone's use -   Judgmental-ish, Overly sensitive-ish, prude-ish, no sense of perspective-ish.  Myself I've got dibs on Glutton-ish and Flippant-ish.
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On the spiritual path somewhere between the Simpsons and St. Theophan the Recluse, but I still can't see the Springfield city limits sign yet.
Carole
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« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2007, 10:09:46 AM »

Tina,

Thank you.

Just to clarify though, the personal message I got asking me was very nice (though probably confused).  It just happened to make me think (never a good thing Wink ).  There was one rather snide comment about people who are "Catholic-ish" that slipped past me until I got the private message asking what it means.  Then it clicked.  So I figured if anyone else was confused, curious or even potentially offended I'd offer an explanation.

I think I might also be Sarcastic-ish ... except that that is really hard to say.
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Carole
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« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2007, 03:26:42 PM »

I'm right there with ya Carole!

 Smiley
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Myrrh23
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« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2007, 12:56:57 AM »

Hey Carole!


I've described myself as "pseudo-Roman Catholic" because I've just decided to leave the RCC, yet have a lot of plates that I'm juggling on sticks right now--college graduation, volunteer work, future plans...
'Tis cool to be an -Ish! I picture the Ish in me as having those spots you see on fawns, which disappear when the fawns become older. That's kinda like us traveling through the Eastern Orthodox Church!
I've decided to leave the RCC because I've never felt a part of the community, not even the Catholic schools I went to. I've always felt like I was on the outside looking in.

Myrrh23 Cheesy
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« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2007, 06:46:11 AM »

Everybody's life of faith is different. The object of our faith is the Blessed Trinity. The question should not be "what makes us most comfortable" but what is Right Worship, Right Praise, Right Practice? I am fully Roman Catholic because I believe that living out His commands to Love God and neighbour, to love one another as He has loved us are things that can be fully done within the Catholic Way. We have the faith that comes to us from the Apostles. We have the Sacraments given us by the Lord. We have the charisms and movements started by great Christians like St Benedict, St John of the Cross, St Therese of Lisieux, St Vincent de Paul, St Ignatius Loyola, St Francis and St Clare of Assisi and so on. Our Lady does not disdain Catholic Christians appearing to St Bernadette at Lourdes, to the Fatima visionaries and as Our Lady of Guadalupe in the Americas. If the Holy spirit and the Mother of God have not abandoned the Church then why should anyone?

It is true that the Orthodox faith too has the Sacraments and, in part, the faith of the Apostles and offers much Right Worship,Right Praise and Right Practice. It is a way to Jesus, it is a lung of the Christian body, but it has not the fullness of the body.

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« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2007, 11:32:05 AM »

Good explanations, Carole and Myrrh23.

My profile-description (to wit, 'not a "real" Roman Catholic') isn't to be taken literally. I am, absolutely and by all means, a real Roman Catholic. But it seems to come up more and more frequently that a lot of Roman Catholics believe that you can't be a "real" Catholic unless you believe that Vatican I was an ecumenical council and that Munificentissimus Deus (1950) was an ex cathedra statement ... etc ... etc.

(BTW, I don't want to get off into a tangent here. If anyone is interesting in discussing Catholic opinions about the number of ecumenical councils or ex cathedra statements there have been, or other things that are supposedly believed by all "real" Catholics, you might look at, e.g., this recent thread.)

God bless,
Peter.
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« Reply #7 on: December 19, 2007, 03:47:04 PM »

Okay everyone, I am trying to clean up this thread.

Any discussions on the Nature of Schism and how it affects everything from Sacraments to the fullness of the Church (and more) can now go here:  http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13960.0.html

Any discussions on submission to the Pope of Rome within the RCC can now go here:  http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13963.0.html

Thank you.

-- Friul
« Last Edit: December 19, 2007, 04:19:17 PM by Friul » Logged

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Peter J
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« Reply #8 on: January 01, 2008, 04:46:07 PM »

Even though my profile description (to wit, Not a "real" Roman Catholic) has only been there for about 2 weeks, I'm feeling like it's time for a change (especially since there's the danger of someone reading it literally). My new self-description will be A Christian in communion with Rome.

As you can probably guess, I was heavily influenced by the phrase "Orthodox in communion with Rome" which is used by a lot of Eastern Catholics. The reason I didn't choose that phrase is that I find it to be a little bit triumphalistic, like saying to the Orthodox "We have everything you have, only better." Undecided

New Year to all and God bless,
Peter.
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TKGS
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« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2008, 10:05:15 AM »

This may almost be a good description of myself, though it is still not adequate.

I have much more sympathy towards the Orthodox (in just the past few months) than almost any Catholic I know.  I've come to discover that much of what I have been taught to think about the Orthodox is not quite true.  The biggest hurdle I would ever have in converting is the fact that the Orthodox are much less "dogmatic" about many areas of the faith than are Catholics.  Is this legalism?  In a way, yes.  But I find the less structured aspects of Orthodoxy personally disturbing.

But the Conciliar Catholic Church also has many disturbing aspects since it seems that nothing is absolute anymore.  Since I attend Mass at a so-called "independent" Catholic chapel, I have to question under what jursidiction I am under.  For the traditional Catholic, these are confusing times.
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trifecta
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« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2008, 06:44:44 AM »

TKGS,

Welcome to the Forum!  I am interested in what Catholics who examined their faith have to say.


The biggest hurdle I would ever have in converting is the fact that the Orthodox are much less "dogmatic" about many areas of the faith than are Catholics.  Is this legalism?  In a way, yes.  But I find the less structured aspects of Orthodoxy personally disturbing.

Care to elaborate?  I'm really not trying to zing you here.  I am interested in what you have to say.

Quote
But the Conciliar Catholic Church also has many disturbing aspects since it seems that nothing is absolute anymore.  Since I attend Mass at a so-called "independent" Catholic chapel, I have to question under what jursidiction I am under.  For the traditional Catholic, these are confusing times.

What is a traditional Catholic, do you think?  I was born a post-Vatican II baby, so the whole Latin Mass thing I do not really understood too well.   

trifecta

P.S. Being born Catholic, and never hating the church, I might fall into the Catholic-ish category myself.  Wink
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« Reply #11 on: January 23, 2008, 10:40:13 AM »

What is a traditional Catholic, do you think?  I was born a post-Vatican II baby, so the whole Latin Mass thing I do not really understood too well.   

Depends on the person.  Some believe a traditional RC is someone who attends a Latin Mass, while others will say a traditional RC is someone who disagrees with or even condemns Vatican II.  And of course, there is a whole area in between that.  Some see them as a natural part of the RCC, others view al traditionalists as schismatics.

I was born post-Vatican II too, but besides when I went to a N.O. Italian mass with family, I would always try to go to a Latin mass.
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lubeltri
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« Reply #12 on: January 23, 2008, 12:25:08 PM »

Repeated post---(shakes fist at server)
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lubeltri
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« Reply #13 on: January 23, 2008, 12:27:09 PM »

Depends on the person.  Some believe a traditional RC is someone who attends a Latin Mass, while others will say a traditional RC is someone who disagrees with or even condemns Vatican II.  And of course, there is a whole area in between that.  Some see them as a natural part of the RCC, others view al traditionalists as schismatics.

I was born post-Vatican II too, but besides when I went to a N.O. Italian mass with family, I would always try to go to a Latin mass.

Depends on the person.  Some believe a traditional RC is someone who attends a Latin Mass, while others will say a traditional RC is someone who disagrees with or even condemns Vatican II.  And of course, there is a whole area in between that.  Some see them as a natural part of the RCC, others view al traditionalists as schismatics.

I was born post-Vatican II too, but besides when I went to a N.O. Italian mass with family, I would always try to go to a Latin mass.

Our current Pope, I believe, is a traditional Catholic. He does not reject the NO out of hand (and he shouldn't---it's fine if done properly), but he also values very highly the pre-1970 form of the rite. He sees them as influencing each other so we have an organic development of the liturgy---the practice of the NO getting re-rooted into tradition and the traditional form developing according to the vision of the Second Vatican Council. As he wrote last year, the aim of the Motu Proprio was "an interior reconciliation in the heart of the Church"---not just among the various liturgical-ideological camps but between the present and the past.

 In my view, an authentically traditional Catholic is one who sees not rupture but continuity in the Church's tradition (those at both extremes only see rupture). An authentically traditional Catholic does not reject Vatican II but interprets it in the light of tradition. If a Catholic rejects Vatican II, he is rejecting the teaching authority of the Pope and the College of Bishops---that is not traditional at all.

I think many of the "traditionalist" Catholics who attend "irregular" or quasi-schismatic Masses are not acting truly Catholic. I have sympathy with those struggling against the liturgical chaos across the Western Church, but they must see it as a cross to bear and not as an excuse to act like Protestants. Besides, things are improving. Most people these days are reasonably close to a traditional Mass or a reverently done NO. And sometimes I wonder if it might be good for us to stop church-shopping and purposely go to whatever Mass is nearby (at least on occasion), just to show that it is the Eucharist that matters and not "what I get out of the Mass" or "how aesthetically appealing it is for me." I recall something J.R.R. Tolkien wrote to his son Christopher in 1963:

"The only sure cure for sagging or faint faith is Communion. Though always itself, perfect and complete and inviolate, the Blessed Sacrament does not operate completely and once for all in any of us. Like the act of faith it must be continuous and grow by exercise. Frequency is of the highest effect. Seven times a week is more nourishing than seven times at intervals. Also I can recommend this as an exercise: make your Communion in circumstances that affront your taste. Choose a snuffling or gaggling priest or a proud and vulgar friar; and a church full of the usual bourgeois crowd, ill-behaved children---from those who yell to those products of Catholic schools who the moment the tabernacle is opened sit back and yawn---opened necked and dirty youths, women in trousers and often with hair both unkempt and uncovered. Go to Communion with them (and pray for them). It will be just the same as a Mass said beautifully by a visibly holy man, and shared by a few devout and decorous people. (It could not be worse than the mess of the feeding of the Five Thousand—after which our Lord propounded the feeding that was to come.)"

Of course, it doesn't mean that irreverent liturgy in violation of the rubrics and the true aims of the Second Vatican Council is okay. Not okay at all. But how do things change if we abandon our parishes and go to renegade priests who have withdrawn their obedience?

Just my tuppence.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2008, 12:27:34 PM by lubeltri » Logged
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