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Author Topic: Conversions to Orthodoxy  (Read 6907 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: December 06, 2007, 04:47:29 AM »

There is an excellent article on Fr Lev Gillet iin Jacob's Well - one which I believe the Roman Catholics here will appreciate for in some ways Fr Lev stood astride the East and the West.

Father Lev Gillet:
The Monk in the City, a Pilgrim in many worlds

by Fr. Michael Plekon

"The whole teaching of the Latin Fathers may be found in the East, just as the whole teaching of the Greek Fathers may be found in the West."

http://www.jacwell.org/Spring_2001/father_lev_gillet.htm
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« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2007, 05:44:24 AM »

Two of my most favourite Catholics who became Orthodox are the monks Saint Anthony the Roman and Saint Macarius the Roman.

You can read a little about them both here
http://www.roca.org/OA/98-99/98k.htm

Saint Anthony the Roman
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« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2007, 02:08:04 PM »

There is an excellent article on Fr Lev Gillet iin Jacob's Well - one which I believe the Roman Catholics here will appreciate for in some ways Fr Lev stood astride the East and the West.

Father Lev Gillet:
The Monk in the City, a Pilgrim in many worlds

by Fr. Michael Plekon

"The whole teaching of the Latin Fathers may be found in the East, just as the whole teaching of the Greek Fathers may be found in the West."

http://www.jacwell.org/Spring_2001/father_lev_gillet.htm


All due respect Fr.

Do you really think this example of sheep stealing/proselytizing, bashing nuns and western praxis and encouraging rivalry in the other thread about CAF (is it out of spite?) would ever motivate anyone to read your sources and convert to your institution? I must tell you it has the totally opposite effect on me as it should for anyone who detests their own hardness of heart. For shame!

Peace out.
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« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2007, 02:39:54 PM »

There is an excellent article on Fr Lev Gillet iin Jacob's Well - one which I believe the Roman Catholics here will appreciate for in some ways Fr Lev stood astride the East and the West.

Father bless, if you mean for we Catholics to read and respond to the article (which looks interesting), you will have to put it in another forum. The Convert Issues forum is off-limits to us (for this purpose). See that little green circle under my name? I don't want to get a yellow one.     Wink
« Last Edit: December 06, 2007, 02:59:09 PM by lubeltri » Logged
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« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2007, 04:53:54 PM »

All due respect Fr.

Do you really think this example of sheep stealing/proselytizing, bashing nuns and western praxis and encouraging rivalry in the other thread about CAF (is it out of spite?) would ever motivate anyone to read your sources and convert to your institution? I must tell you it has the totally opposite effect on me as it should for anyone who detests their own hardness of heart. For shame!

Peace out.
Dear JA,

on the now-exterminated CAF Eastern Christianity forum, Father Ambrose posted just about the same messages that you decry on this forum. They were part of a series of factual stories of people who converted from Catholicism to Orthodoxy AND VICE-VERSA. They were not motivated to bring forth conversion to any "institution" (what a charming choice of words...), but simply to enlighten the readers about the dynamics and motivations of personal conversion stories. It looks like the former moderators had no problems in hosting the stories, which created surprisingly few flames... on a Catholic forum. Why should they "encourage rivalry" when posted in the Convert Issues section of an Orthodox forum... is something that surpasses even my best powers of cogitation.

Yours in Christ,

hieromonk Ambrogio
Turin, Italy
« Last Edit: December 06, 2007, 09:21:16 PM by Padre Ambrogio » Logged

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« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2007, 05:15:56 PM »

All due respect Fr.

Do you really think this example of sheep stealing/proselytizing, bashing nuns and western praxis and encouraging rivalry in the other thread about CAF (is it out of spite?) would ever motivate anyone to read your sources and convert to your institution? I must tell you it has the totally opposite effect on me as it should for anyone who detests their own hardness of heart. For shame!

Peace out.
As Fr Ambrogio has said, both my posts are simply exact repeats of a thread on conversion on the CAF.  It was a very peaceful and popular thread and with many postings.  Ask the CAF Mods if they would restore it for viewing.

You mention "sheep stealing/proselytizing."   In the three instances I mention there was nothing of the sort going on. Fr Lev Gillet was a highly intelligent and urbane man and he made his own decisions.  The two Saints also were not proselytized - in the case of Saint Anthony the Roman it was God Himself who did the "proselytizing" by ferrying the Saint on a rock from Italy to Russia.  Can't argue with that level of divine intervention!  Smiley

Do you really think it is useful to refer to your other lung as an "institution"?   Undecided
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« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2007, 06:35:16 PM »

As Fr Ambrogio has said, both my posts are simply exact repeats of a thread on conversion on the CAF.  It was a very peaceful and popular thread and with many postings.  Ask the CAF Mods if they would restore it for viewing.

You mention "sheep stealing/proselytizing."   In the three instances I mention there was nothing of the sort going on. Fr Lev Gillet was a highly intelligent and urbane man and he made his own decisions.  The two Saints also were not proselytized - in the case of Saint Anthony the Roman it was God Himself who did the "proselytizing" by ferrying the Saint on a rock from Italy to Russia.  Can't argue with that level of divine intervention!  Smiley

Do you really think it is useful to refer to your other lung as an "institution"?   Undecided

I really don't feel like asking the CAF mods anyting.

I see I must have woke up grumpy today and took the title of the thread the wrong way. I blame it on the wilderness I have been banished to.  Cry  Nevertheless it makes me cringe to hear of conversions away from the Church just as it would to hear of those away from yours I am sure. Why even go there if not with an intent to proselytize? I can understand personal opinion of those who have done so but when someone like yourself just showcases individual cases it seems prideful IMHO.

As far as the word institution, take no offence please. I think Jesus instituted our churches thus making them institutions of religion. I began using the word during my social work training. I never encountered any offense to its use until I encountered Orthodox Christians who seem to despise the word for some reason. Though on second thought I have seen protesters use it as a derogatory but I just don't see it as such. The church is an institution instituted by God. Its Christ's institution for us right?

Peace.
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« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2007, 06:44:19 PM »

Dear JA,

on the now-exterminated CAF Eastern Christianity forum, Father Ambrose posted just about the same messages that you decry on this forum. They were part of a series of factual stories of people who converted from Catholicism to Orthodoxy AND VICE-VERSA. They were not motivated to bring forth conversion to any "institution" (what a charming choice of words...), but simply to enlighten the readers about the dynamics and motivations of personal conversion stories. It looks like the former moderators had no problems in hosting the stories, which created surprisingly few flames... on a Catholic forum. Why should they "encourage rivalry" when posted in the Convert Issues section of an Orthodox forum... is something that surpasses even my best powers of cogitation.

Yours in Christ,

hieromonk Ambrogio
Turin, Italy


It looks like the

Dear Padre,

I didn't notice it was in the Convert Issues thread. My bad. Yet if no rivalry is really intended then whats the point in posting it in the first place? Its not an issue for anyone is it?

Please take no offense at my choice of words. I explained already in my reply to Fr. A.
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« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2007, 09:19:31 PM »

As far as the word institution, take no offence please. I think Jesus instituted our churches thus making them institutions of religion. I began using the word during my social work training. I never encountered any offense to its use until I encountered Orthodox Christians who seem to despise the word for some reason. (...)

"Marriage is a wonderful institution, but who wants to live in an institution?"

Groucho Marx

Tongue
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« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2007, 04:00:54 AM »

"Marriage is a wonderful institution, but who wants to live in an institution?"

Groucho Marx

Tongue

Ah, thanks for the levity. Its appreciated.  Grin   Probably few want to live in an institution, but I am better off in one.  Wink
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« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2007, 06:26:26 AM »

Dear Padre,

I didn't notice it was in the Convert Issues thread. My bad. Yet if no rivalry is really intended then whats the point in posting it in the first place? Its not an issue for anyone is it?

Please take no offense at my choice of words. I explained already in my reply to Fr. A.
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I have to lay the guilt on Fr Ambrogio.  He suggested in the CAF thread that we could have a thread on converts and I obliged him by starting this one.  Grin
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« Reply #11 on: December 07, 2007, 07:04:41 AM »

A convert monk about whom I know very little - Father David of Dervent monastery near Calarasi.

"At Pentecost 1993 my dearest wish - one that I had cherished for some 15 years or more - was finally granted. On that day, in a monastery of the Holy Mountain (Athos) I was received into the Orthodox Communion. And doubtless it will seem odd to many readers that for a long time, when any of my kind Greek and Romanian friends asked what induced me to secede from the Church of Rome, in which I had been a hieromonk (priest-monk) for some 22 years, I was at a loss to know how to satisfy their quite natural - and for me, flattering - curiosity......"

Full article at
http://www.vivid.ro/vivid64/pages/diary64.htm
or
http://tinyurl.com/29hxgm


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« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2007, 10:03:05 AM »

*
I have to lay the guilt on Fr Ambrogio.  He suggested in the CAF thread that we could have a thread on converts and I obliged him by starting this one.  Grin
I plead guilty!  Embarrassed

And I suppose I know what the punishment will be... a lifetime of confinement at my PC, working hard to compile an endless ecyclopedical dictionary of conversion stories...  Wink
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« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2007, 03:57:13 PM »

A convert monk about whom I know very little - Father David of Dervent monastery near Calarasi.
That is a beautiful photograph. Thank you!
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« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2007, 05:09:15 PM »

I have no problems with the posted links nor do I feel threaten by them...

The Spirit leads many ways and I enjoy reading & contemplating on such...

james



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« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2007, 07:55:35 PM »

A convert monk about whom I know very little - Father David of Dervent monastery near Calarasi.

"At Pentecost 1993 my dearest wish - one that I had cherished for some 15 years or more - was finally granted. On that day, in a monastery of the Holy Mountain (Athos) I was received into the Orthodox Communion. And doubtless it will seem odd to many readers that for a long time, when any of my kind Greek and Romanian friends asked what induced me to secede from the Church of Rome, in which I had been a hieromonk (priest-monk) for some 22 years, I was at a loss to know how to satisfy their quite natural - and for me, flattering - curiosity......"

Full article at
http://www.vivid.ro/vivid64/pages/diary64.htm
or
http://tinyurl.com/29hxgm




That picture looks like it was taken in paradise...Reminds me of the Shire in "Lord of the Rings..." Wink
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« Reply #16 on: December 08, 2007, 08:27:37 PM »

I plead guilty!  Embarrassed

And I suppose I know what the punishment will be... a lifetime of confinement at my PC, working hard to compile an endless ecyclopedical dictionary of conversion stories...  Wink


Reminds me of Dante's peek.  Wink
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Joab Anias
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« Reply #17 on: December 08, 2007, 08:30:49 PM »

A convert monk about whom I know very little - Father David of Dervent monastery near Calarasi.

"At Pentecost 1993 my dearest wish - one that I had cherished for some 15 years or more - was finally granted. On that day, in a monastery of the Holy Mountain (Athos) I was received into the Orthodox Communion. And doubtless it will seem odd to many readers that for a long time, when any of my kind Greek and Romanian friends asked what induced me to secede from the Church of Rome, in which I had been a hieromonk (priest-monk) for some 22 years, I was at a loss to know how to satisfy their quite natural - and for me, flattering - curiosity......"

Full article at
http://www.vivid.ro/vivid64/pages/diary64.htm
or
http://tinyurl.com/29hxgm




Does this mean he had to reject the development of doctrine since the schism?
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« Reply #18 on: December 08, 2007, 08:43:00 PM »

Drive-by post^
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« Reply #19 on: December 08, 2007, 08:44:57 PM »

Does this mean he had to reject the development of doctrine since the schism?

I think you got that wrong.  This looks better. Wink

Does this mean he had to reject the development invention of doctrine since the schism?
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« Reply #20 on: December 08, 2007, 09:02:29 PM »

An astute and well considered edit.
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« Reply #21 on: December 08, 2007, 09:12:33 PM »

I think you got that wrong.  This looks better. Wink


Looks better to those wanting rivalry perhaps. I do not.

Flames aren't answers. I asked a serious question and expected a serious answer from someone who might know.
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« Reply #22 on: December 08, 2007, 09:18:40 PM »

Looks better to those wanting rivalry perhaps. I do not.

Flames aren't answers. I asked a serious question and expected a serious answer from someone who might know.

It wasn't a serious question; it was a loaded one.  By asking whether he had to reject the "development of doctrine" is nothing more than a veiled way of asking "Did he have to reject the fact Rome was right?"  Do you really expect us to take such a question seriously?
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« Reply #23 on: December 08, 2007, 09:51:50 PM »

It wasn't a serious question; it was a loaded one.  By asking whether he had to reject the "development of doctrine" is nothing more than a veiled way of asking "Did he have to reject the fact Rome was right?"  Do you really expect us to take such a question seriously?

What may seem loaded to you is serious to me. I implyed nothing. Your assumptions are running away with you.

Fr. Ambrose, I am sure knows what I meant, whom I addressed in the first place. I have no need to vail anything because I speak honestly.

If you don't know the answer then why are you derailing the subject with rhetoric?

The question still stands. If anyone can answer that is.
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« Reply #24 on: December 08, 2007, 09:57:57 PM »

What may seem loaded to you is serious to me. I implyed nothing. Your assumptions are running away with you.

You ought reexamine that conclusion.  Your entire question is predicated upon the Latin assumption that doctrine has indeed developed after Rome separated from the Church.  By taking that assumption as a given, you are implying that it Rome is right.

Quote
The question still stands. If anyone can answer that is.

Thus, the question does not stand, as it assumes a falsehood as its main line of reasoning.
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« Reply #25 on: December 08, 2007, 10:09:34 PM »

You ought reexamine that conclusion.  Your entire question is predicated upon the Latin assumption that doctrine has indeed developed after Rome separated from the Church.  By taking that assumption as a given, you are implying that it Rome is right.

Oh I see, doctrine stopped developing after the 7th council. Like the Holy Spirit just up and left the world and stopped guiding the Church. I'm not hiding the fact I am Roman Catholic am I? Of course I assume the Dogmas of the Church are correct. Just as I assume the ones jointly arrived at prior to the Schism are as well. You assume yours are right don't you? I don't get upset because I know your think your right.

My question is: If the convert who says he had been a Catholic priest for 22 years was required to dissavow those beliefs of the Church developed since the schism before becoming Orthodox?

I think its a valid question that deserves no hostility from you just for asking it.

Quote
Thus, the question does not stand, as it assumes a falsehood as its main line of reasoning.

Well the Question is to Fr. Ambrose anyway so it still stands if he would like to address it for me. I guess we know where your bent is. Perhaps I should just leave this site too.
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« Reply #26 on: December 08, 2007, 10:14:52 PM »

Does this mean he had to reject the development of doctrine since the schism?
*
He says that he was received on Mount Athos and that makes it 99.9% certain that he was received by Baptism.  This fact speaks volumes about what he rejected, especially as he had been a Roman Catholic priest and monk for 22 years.  In other words he was very aware of what he was doing and what he was rejecting and what he was accepting theologically.
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« Reply #27 on: December 08, 2007, 10:15:05 PM »

Folks - please, remember that this is the Convert Issues forum, not a place for heavy debate. (This comment was not directed at you, Father.  I wrote it before you had posted your response, but posted it afterward.)

Joab: Since this is the "Convert Issues" forum on an Orthodox board, my strong suggestion is that your question be worded thusly:
"Was the convert, who says he had been a Roman Catholic priest for 22 years, required to disavow  those beliefs of the Catholic Church developed since the schism before becoming Orthodox?"
« Last Edit: December 08, 2007, 10:17:13 PM by cleveland » Logged

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« Reply #28 on: December 08, 2007, 11:38:57 PM »

*
He says that he was received on Mount Athos and that makes it 99.9% certain that he was received by Baptism.  This fact speaks volumes about what he rejected, especially as he had been a Roman Catholic priest and monk for 22 years.  In other words he was very aware of what he was doing and what he was rejecting and what he was accepting theologically.

Thanks Father.

I must say it pangs me to ponder that anyone would suspect my baptism as invalid because of any disagreement they had with my church that is also undeniably apostolic.

Is everyone else doomed?

Peace.
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« Reply #29 on: December 09, 2007, 12:33:37 AM »

Thanks Father.

I must say it pangs me to ponder that anyone would suspect my baptism as invalid because of any disagreement they had with my church that is also undeniably apostolic.

Is everyone else doomed?

Peace.

Why do you care? If you really cared what the Orthodox Catholic Church believed, you'd embrace Orthodoxy.

We couldn't care less that Rome thinks we're schismatic, and the Protestants think we're pagan.

In answer to your "question": he had to renounce all doctrines developed since circa 33.
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« Reply #30 on: December 09, 2007, 01:50:32 AM »

I must say it pangs me to ponder that anyone would suspect my baptism as invalid because of any disagreement they had with my church that is also undeniably apostolic.

Is everyone else doomed?
*
In the great compassion of God of which we understand not even a small fraction nobody is doomed except those who doom themselves.

Our Saviour tells us that we cannot be saved without faith in Him.

He tells us that we cannot be saved unless we have been baptized and received the Spirit.

Our Saviour also tells us that we cannot be saved unless we "eat His flesh and drink His blood."  This would damn Anglicans and all other Christians and indeed almost all the human race.

And yet Saint Paul, inspired by God, tell us in Romans 2 how people will be saved, without Baptism and without Holy Communion.

So we have, from the words of Christ Himself:

No faith = no salvation
No Baptism = no salvation
No Communion = no salvation

and yet

Salvation *is* possible without Baptism and Communion according to the inspired Scriptures.

The Church has never resolved this paradox. We are able to live with it and trust in the mercy of God who "wills all men to be saved."

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« Reply #31 on: December 09, 2007, 02:28:10 AM »

In answer to your "question": he had to renounce all doctrines developed since circa 33.

Touche.   Wink  We don't believe in "development" of doctrine in the Roman Catholic sense of the term.  The Orthodox will use this terminology on occasion, but what we really mean when we do is further definition of doctrine, and we believe that further defintion should happen only when absolutely necessary.  We believe that the revelations that shone forth from the emply tomb and at Pentecost have remained unchanged through the ages.  For us, there can be no question of a kind of growth or change of doctrine.
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« Reply #32 on: December 09, 2007, 02:33:14 AM »

We couldn't care less that Rome thinks we're schismatic, and the Protestants think we're pagan.
*
You've reminded of the theologian Harnack.

"The Orthodox Church is in her entire structure alien to the Gospel and a perversion of the Christian religion, its reduction to the level of pagan antiquity."

I always treasure that quote and take a great pride in it, perhaps even a sinful pride... mea culpa! But are we not doing something right if Western theologians speak so highly of us.  Grin

More seriously and lamentably, does this not show how far the West has travelled from true Christianity since the Schism? Harnack bumps up against the purest form of Christianity, is unable to comprehend it and he condemns it and delivers such a harsh judgement!


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« Reply #33 on: December 09, 2007, 03:08:46 AM »

*
In the great compassion of God of which we understand not even a small fraction nobody is doomed except those who doom themselves.

Our Saviour tells us that we cannot be saved without faith in Him.

He tells us that we cannot be saved unless we have been baptized and received the Spirit.

Our Saviour also tells us that we cannot be saved unless we "eat His flesh and drink His blood."  This would damn Anglicans and all other Christians and indeed almost all the human race.

And yet Saint Paul, inspired by God, tell us in Romans 2 how people will be saved, without Baptism and without Holy Communion.

So we have, from the words of Christ Himself:

No faith = no salvation
No Baptism = no salvation
No Communion = no salvation

and yet

Salvation *is* possible without Baptism and Communion according to the inspired Scriptures.

The Church has never resolved this paradox. We are able to live with it and trust in the mercy of God who "wills all men to be saved."



Great point!
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« Reply #34 on: December 09, 2007, 03:20:33 AM »

In answer to your "question": he had to renounce all doctrines developed since circa 33.

Touche.   Wink  We don't believe in "development" of doctrine in the Roman Catholic sense of the term.  The Orthodox will use this terminology on occasion, but what we really mean when we do is further definition of doctrine, and we believe that further defintion should happen only when absolutely necessary.  We believe that the revelations that shone forth from the emply tomb and at Pentecost have remained unchanged through the ages.  For us, there can be no question of a kind of growth or change of doctrine.

If one objectively reads, without imposing modern theological understandings, second and third century fathers one will see a great diversity in theological opinions. One sees 'Arianism', 'Sabellianism', 'Monophysitism', etc. This whole theory of a perfect modern theology as of 33 A.D. is nice and all, don't get me wrong, but what academically credible evidence do you have to support such a conclusion?
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« Reply #35 on: December 09, 2007, 03:42:57 AM »

Why do you care? If you really cared what the Orthodox Catholic Church believed, you'd embrace Orthodoxy.

We couldn't care less that Rome thinks we're schismatic, and the Protestants think we're pagan.

In answer to your "question": he had to renounce all doctrines developed since circa 33.

For the same reason I care if Jack Chick insults me or the Lord Jesus Himself. In your reasoning I should join him? That is utterly ridiculous.

I don't think Rome thinks your schismatic at all. Are you?

Lastly in all fairness is that last statement really true?

Are you now saying that the first 7 councils are not infallible either?

So should we be following Mosaic law (Judaizers),
think Christ is not also true man (Arianism),
that His natures are somehow divided (Nestorianism),
that Jesus had no true Human nature (Monophysitism),
that Christ did not possess a human will (Monothelism)
and very notably that Icons are idolatry (Iconoclasts).

You see these are just some of the things defined before the Council of Nicea II in 787.

If the Orthodox hadn't been practicing the development of doctrine with the guidance of the Holy Spirit as Christ promised then Arian or Nestorian would have done it for us.

I agree its ideal to hold fast to the revelation of Christ. By development of doctrine we do exactly that. We are prompted by the Holy Spirit who Christ promised to lead us into all truth are we not? Are we to ignore Him? Hardly. If your Church was such a minimalists as you portrait it to be then why even bother to have a Bishop or a synod? There is no great lack of Pomp in your Church either. IMHO The only reason you balk at development of doctrine at all is because you fear your not lead by the Holy Spirit since the schism. I don't use this lack of participation to admonish because I genuinely believe the Orthodox Church is also led by the Spirit by virtue of its apostolic lineage. The real tragedy is that Andrew and Peter got separated in the world and have yet to reunite. Neither do I point fingers at the cause. Whats the point in it that? Both sides own part of that responsibility. Pointing fingers is juvenile and immature. Is that what this forum is to become? A place where true hearts can be revealed?

Peace through the Trinity.
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« Reply #36 on: December 09, 2007, 03:46:45 AM »

Touche.   Wink  We don't believe in "development" of doctrine in the Roman Catholic sense of the term.  The Orthodox will use this terminology on occasion, but what we really mean when we do is further definition of doctrine, and we believe that further defintion should happen only when absolutely necessary.  We believe that the revelations that shone forth from the emply tomb and at Pentecost have remained unchanged through the ages.  For us, there can be no question of a kind of growth or change of doctrine.

Exactly the same in the west. Revelation is not further revealed just better understood. No council has been unnecessary.

I think the problem is with dogma and the human natures natural proclivity to rebel against what it cannot change. It takes humility.

Peace.
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« Reply #37 on: December 09, 2007, 07:48:05 AM »

*
In the great compassion of God of which we understand not even a small fraction nobody is doomed except those who doom themselves.

Our Saviour tells us that we cannot be saved without faith in Him.

He tells us that we cannot be saved unless we have been baptized and received the Spirit.

Our Saviour also tells us that we cannot be saved unless we "eat His flesh and drink His blood."  This would damn Anglicans and all other Christians and indeed almost all the human race.

And yet Saint Paul, inspired by God, tell us in Romans 2 how people will be saved, without Baptism and without Holy Communion.

So we have, from the words of Christ Himself:

No faith = no salvation
No Baptism = no salvation
No Communion = no salvation

and yet

Salvation *is* possible without Baptism and Communion according to the inspired Scriptures.

The Church has never resolved this paradox. We are able to live with it and trust in the mercy of God who "wills all men to be saved."



The Lord's hand is not shortened, that He cannot save.

Death has no power over  him.  He despoiled Hell once, He can continue to do so.

The Church, as the Body of Christ, is in the saving business, not the damning business.  The Church, by her nature, is engaged in randsoming the captives of their own sins, snatching souls from the gapping jaws of Hell.  We intercede: how God works that out is His business.  The Church is bound by sacraments, He is not.  He tells us some of those who are saved, by glorifying them in sainthood.  Others He lets remain unknown.  He doesn't tell us who goes to Hell.

The gates of Hell are locked from the inside.
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« Reply #38 on: December 09, 2007, 08:38:44 AM »

For the same reason I care if Jack Chick insults me or the Lord Jesus Himself. In your reasoning I should join him? That is utterly ridiculous.

I don't know. Does Jack Chick's insults pang you?

I must say it pangs me to ponder that anyone would suspect my baptism as invalid because of any disagreement they had with my church that is also undeniably apostolic.

Insulting the Lord Jesus Himself is a slightly different matter, i.e. blasphemy.

Quote
I don't think Rome thinks your schismatic at all. Are you?

One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.  Yep, that's us.

Quote
Lastly in all fairness is that last statement really true?

Are you now saying that the first 7 councils are not infallible either?


The are infallible as they repeat what had already been said.

Quote
So should we be following Mosaic law (Judaizers),


Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill (Mat. 5:17)
And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Perceive ye not, that whatsoever from without goeth into the man, it cannot defile him;
because it goeth not into his heart, but into his belly, and goeth out into the draught? This he said, making all meats clean. (Mark 7:18-9)

Quote
think Christ is not also true man (Arianism),

Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.  (John 8:58)
But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill Hm, because Henot only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was Hs Father, making Hmself equal with God. (John 5:17-8)

Quote
that His natures are somehow divided (Nestorianism),


and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost; and she lifted up her voice with a loud cry, and said, ...and whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come unto me?  (Luke 1:41-3).

Quote
that Jesus had no true Human nature (Monophysitism),


For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed (John 6:55)

Quote
that Christ did not possess a human will (Monothelism)


And He went forward a little, and fell on His face, and prayed, saying, O My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass away from Me: nevertheless, not as I will, but as Thou wilt. (Mat. 26:39).

and very notably that Icons are idolatry (Iconoclasts).

Quote
You see these are just some of the things defined before the Council of Nicea II in 787.

They just commented on what was said before. The heretics just didn't get it.

Quote
If the Orthodox hadn't been practicing the development of doctrine with the guidance of the Holy Spirit as Christ promised then Arian or Nestorian would have done it for us.

The word is degeneration, not development, of doctrine.

Quote
I agree its ideal to hold fast to the revelation of Christ. By development of doctrine we do exactly that. We are prompted by the Holy Spirit who Christ promised to lead us into all truth are we not? Are we to ignore Him? Hardly. If your Church was such a minimalists as you portrait it to be then why even bother to have a Bishop or a synod? There is no great lack of Pomp in your Church either. IMHO The only reason you balk at development of doctrine at all is because you fear your not lead by the Holy Spirit since the schism.

I have no such fear.  Every service we have begins with the invocation of the Spirit to "....come and abide in us...."  And since we're not is schism, we're not the ones to worry.

We have bishops because the Apostles appointed them.  Have you read St. Clement?  St. Ignatius?

There was no lack of Pomp in the Temple either, and the Lord and the Apostles participated in it, as the Gospels and Acts amply show.

Quote
I don't use this lack of participation to admonish because I genuinely believe the Orthodox Church is also led by the Spirit by virtue of its apostolic lineage. The real tragedy is that Andrew and Peter got separated in the world and have yet to reunite.


Andrew and Peter are separated?  Last I heard Bartholomew and Ignatius were still in communion.  I've have to check the diptychs this morning.


Quote
Neither do I point fingers at the cause. Whats the point in it that? Both sides own part of that responsibility. Pointing fingers is juvenile and immature. Is that what this forum is to become? A place where true hearts can be revealed?

And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.  Just ask the monk.
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« Reply #39 on: December 09, 2007, 08:46:59 AM »

If one objectively reads, without imposing modern theological understandings, second and third century fathers one will see a great diversity in theological opinions. One sees 'Arianism', 'Sabellianism', 'Monophysitism', etc. This whole theory of a perfect modern theology as of 33 A.D. is nice and all, don't get me wrong, but what academically credible evidence do you have to support such a conclusion?

Your postulating a "perfect modern theology" undermines your question.
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« Reply #40 on: December 09, 2007, 11:58:05 AM »

I don't know. Does Jack Chick's insults pang you?

Not any more.

Quote
Insulting the Lord Jesus Himself is a slightly different matter, i.e. blasphemy.

Agreed yet I can see all sin as insulting the Lord.

Quote
They just commented on what was said before. The heretics just didn't get it.

and they still don't. Who are councils for anyway. To tell the heretics what they should know or the faithful the difference?

Quote
The word is degeneration, not development, of doctrine.

See above line.

Quote
I have no such fear.  Every service we have begins with the invocation of the Spirit to "....come and abide in us...."  And since we're not is schism, we're not the ones to worry.

Thats odd. Seems you have ended conciliarity as much as we have.

Quote
Andrew and Peter are separated?  Last I heard Bartholomew and Ignatius were still in communion.  I've have to check the diptychs this morning.

Clever but unproductive.

Quote
And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.  Just ask the monk.

I'd love to. He seems to be autonomous and unreachable. Maybe we can meet in heaven.  Wink

Peace.
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« Reply #41 on: December 09, 2007, 12:02:11 PM »

The are infallible as they repeat what had already been said.

So do the rest brother, so do the rest. Nothing changed in how they were conducted except dissenters abstained.
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« Reply #42 on: December 09, 2007, 01:20:22 PM »

Your postulating a "perfect modern theology" undermines your question.

LOL. It was a sarcastic jab at your position, I have no doubt that our theology will continue to develop and change, as it has been over the last 100 years.
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« Reply #43 on: December 09, 2007, 10:36:52 PM »


We couldn't care less that Rome thinks we're schismatic, and the Protestants think we're pagan.


Thank you, my sentiments exactly.  Why are some Orthodox worried if Rome or the Protestants approves what we do?  They made their beds  - Cool let them lie down in it.
 Cool

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« Reply #44 on: December 09, 2007, 11:00:28 PM »

Not any more.

Agreed yet I can see all sin as insulting the Lord.

and they still don't. Who are councils for anyway. To tell the heretics what they should know or the faithful the difference?

See above line.

Thats odd. Seems you have ended conciliarity as much as we have.

Clever but unproductive.

I'd love to. He seems to be autonomous and unreachable. Maybe we can meet in heaven.  Wink

Peace.

He's on Mount Athos.  Not such a communication hub, except with another world.
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« Reply #45 on: December 11, 2007, 01:49:40 AM »

Joab and ialmisry,

Just a friendly suggestion that if you want to continue your debate, you start another thread outside of the Convert Issues Forum for this purpose.
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« Reply #46 on: December 11, 2007, 11:25:21 AM »

Beloved in the Lord,

The purpose of the Convert issues forum is to provide a a place on the OC.Net where inquirers, catechumen, and newly converted could ask their questions about the Orthodox Faith in a safe and supportive forum without retribution or recrimination. Many of those posting in this area are ignorant of Orthodox teachings and are using this forum to understand what are the basic teachings and practices of the Orthodox churches. Due to the simplicity of many of their requests and responses, direct and simple answers with sources if possible are most helpful.

If the moderators find that the discusions become faith or jurisdiction debates, the topic will be split and sent the appropriate OC.Net forum to continue the discussion or debate. As a poster,You may also ask that a topic be split so that a private discussion can be established to go into detail about the issues that you feel adamant about and wish to debate or discuss. The convert forum is not a place for combative debate or arguement. 

Thank you for your following these guidelines to the edification and spiritual growth of the forum inquirers, catechumen, and newly converted.

In Christ,
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As a result of this topic not meeting  forum purpose, I am moving it to free-for-all forum where you may continue your discussion if needed.

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« Reply #47 on: December 24, 2007, 10:30:24 AM »

Joab Anias,

If your goal here was to give the Catholic Church a black eye, then I'd say well done.

God bless,
Peter.
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« Reply #48 on: December 24, 2007, 10:31:35 AM »

Why do you care? If you really cared what the Orthodox Catholic Church believed, you'd embrace Orthodoxy.

That's one of the worst blanket-generalizations I've heard in a while.

So I guess I've just been lying to myself that I care what the Orthodox Church believes, eh?

-Peter.
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« Reply #49 on: December 24, 2007, 05:29:20 PM »

Joab Anias,

If your goal here was to give the Catholic Church a black eye, then I'd say well done.

God bless,
Peter.

No idea what you mean, but I'll just reply with Bah-humbug!  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #50 on: December 24, 2007, 10:06:05 PM »

Joab Anias,

If your goal here was to give the Catholic Church a black eye, then I'd say well done.

God bless,
Peter.

No idea what you mean, but I'll just reply with Bah-humbug!  Roll Eyes

My statement was, of course, a bit of an exaggeration. All you really succeeded in doing was revealing your own tendency to sling mud at your opponent rather than engage him in argument.

God bless,
Peter.
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« Reply #51 on: December 24, 2007, 11:04:49 PM »

No idea what you mean, but I'll just reply with Bah-humbug!  Roll Eyes


My statement was, of course, a bit of an exaggeration. All you really succeeded in doing was revealing your own tendency to sling mud at your opponent rather than engage him in argument.

God bless,
Peter.

Oh, yea, sry.  Embarrassed
Had a bad day and misread and over-reacted to the intention of the thread. I thought I explained that back then. Anyways, hope your having a good Christmas. I have to head to work atm.  Lips Sealed

Peace.
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« Reply #52 on: December 24, 2007, 11:23:36 PM »

That's one of the worst blanket-generalizations I've heard in a while.

So I guess I've just been lying to myself that I care what the Orthodox Church believes, eh?

-Peter.

I was refering specifically about being "panged" about what we believe. That's not just Orthodox, but life in general.

So do we believe the Latin sacraments are valid, we can't have an official position.

Some (including myself) say yes.

Others, no.

We should agree that the Orthodox should intercede on their behalf. But that's only our concern.  Is it patronizing?
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« Reply #53 on: December 25, 2007, 02:59:12 PM »

Merry Christmas, all.

I was refering specifically about being "panged" about what we believe. That's not just Orthodox, but life in general.

Ah yes. That does make a difference.

God bless,
Peter.
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