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Author Topic: Old Calendar Parishes in New Calendar Jurisdictions and Vice Versa  (Read 5257 times) Average Rating: 0
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filipinopilgrim
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« on: December 06, 2007, 12:33:50 AM »

I've noticed that in some jurisdictions officially listed as "New Calendar", some parishes continue to be on the Old Calendar. Thus, in addition to the Alaska Diocese, the OCA has the Russian Mission in San Francisco and some other parishes and monasteries in Oregon, California and Canada. I've also read that some Bulgarian parishes continue to be on the old calendar, and these commemorate Patriarch Maksim, not the Old Calendar Synod of Bishop Photius. At least one Antiochian parish (originally Russian) is also on the Old Calendar, in Australia.

Are there parishes and monasteries in the Greek Orthodox Churches (aside from Jerusalem and Sinai and outside of Athos) that continue to be on the OC? I know that St. Irene and its metochia used to be OC but that they have entirely shifted to the NC since 2004 (?)

Similarly, I've read that the Netherlands diocese of the Moscow Patriarchate is on the New Calendar AND Gregorian Pashcalion.

What other New Calendar jurisdictions continue to allow parishes and dioceses to be on the Old Calendar? Are these Old Calendar groups in NC jurisdictions growing or shrinking? Similarly, what other Old Calendar jurisdictions allow for New Calendar parishes?

Finally, I'm confused by the situation in the Orthodox Churches of Poland and in the Czech and Slovak Republics. It seems that in Poland, the upper part of the Metropolitan's Cathedral is on the New Calendar (and that is where he serves) while the lower part of the cathedral is on the Old Calendar! The dioceses are also a patchwork of old calendar and new calendar, although the Polish monasteries and the eastern Polish dioceses are solidly OC. The situation seems to be even more complicated in the Czech and Slovak lands.

I hope that somebody could enlighten me, or add to my post.

filipinopilgrim
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Basil 320
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« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2007, 05:54:39 PM »

Yes, the 20th Century precedent as to what can go wrong when the full conciliar process is not utilized; "some feast while others fast;" as the Old Calendar resisters say.

I can respond to two of the questions you raise.  I believe the Ecumenical Patriarchate's policy is to accept Old Calendarists who do not challenge the canonical propriety of the new calendar, if that's the appropriate manner to refer to it.

Thus, through negotiation, in 1997, the EP accepted the Saint Irene Monastery in Astoria, New York, along with its monastic appendages (parishes), as a Starvropegial Monastery.  It retains the Old Calendar and is in Communion with Constantinople and hence, the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America.  This monastery had been affiliated with Old Calendar resistance synods in Greece, for more than the -20- year period prior to '97.  The GOA's 2007 Year Book advises that this jurisdiction follows, the "Julian [Old] Calendar."

I'm also aware, that the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad's Cathedral in Montreal follows the new calendar.  The ROCA follows the Old Calendar.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2007, 06:22:00 PM by BTRAKAS » Logged

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« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2007, 09:50:32 PM »

I mean no disrespect by this. I'm just asking a question. Isnt this kind of like how in the RC the Pope accepted the Traditionalists only under the condition that they got permission from him to be Traditionalists and as long as they never questioned his right to revoke it? I assume that the Old Calendarist parishes you talk about need permission from their New Calendarist bishop.
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« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2007, 11:58:06 PM »

I guess this situation is analogous to the one you've brought forward.  It's difficult to determine appropriate protocol, because this phenomenon of the past -80- years or so, is rather unprecedented.  I think, however, that a single bishop does not have the authority to approve a deviation to the calendar used in the Local Church.  Probably the synod would have to either authorize flexibility in the Local Church based on a diocesan bishops request on behalf of a community; or authorize continuing authority for diocesan bishops to exercise at their discretion.
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« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2007, 09:09:10 AM »

I mean no disrespect by this. I'm just asking a question. Isnt this kind of like how in the RC the Pope accepted the Traditionalists only under the condition that they got permission from him to be Traditionalists and as long as they never questioned his right to revoke it? I assume that the Old Calendarist parishes you talk about need permission from their New Calendarist bishop.

Well, any parish needs permission from their bishop for any matter of praxis that affects the Liturgy and fasting, so it is safe to assume that these parishes came under NC Bishops with the understanding that the NC bishop needed to grant them permission to remain OC.
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« Reply #5 on: July 19, 2010, 05:44:31 PM »

Every Thursday and Saturday evening,I serve Vespers in an Old Calender Monastery which is under Metropolitan Joseph of the Bulgarian Patriarchate.
     Of course,I serve a Serbian parish Sundays and Feastdays,which is Old Calender,as is the whole Serbian Church.
     If the Ukrainian Catholic Church can make provisions for those believers who wish to retain the Julian reckoning,can't we Orthodox do the same?
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Chtets Ioann
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« Reply #6 on: September 17, 2010, 12:20:37 AM »

I'm also aware, that the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad's Cathedral in Montreal follows the new calendar.  The ROCA follows the Old Calendar.

Are you sure???
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« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2010, 02:07:35 AM »

I'm also aware, that the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad's Cathedral in Montreal follows the new calendar.  The ROCA follows the Old Calendar.

Are you sure???

Throughout the 1950s and 1960s the Russian Church Abroad had New Calendar bishops and dioceses:

1.  the American one under Archbishop James Toombs

2.  the French one under Bishop Jean Nectaire

3.  the Dutch one under Bishop James of the Hague

4.  the Romanian one under Bishop Teofil Ionesco

5. the Bulgarian one under Bishop Kyrill.

The  French and the Dutch Dioceses were founded by and under the supervision of St. John of Shanghai and San Francisco. .

Some of these new calendar parishes remained within the Russian Church Abroad throughout the 1980s and 1990s and even into the 2000s (the Romanian ones).  It is probably the New Calendar Romanian church and priest in Montreal which Basil has in mind.


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Chtets Ioann
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« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2010, 02:24:18 AM »

yes but surely not the Diocesan Cathedral?
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« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2010, 02:42:59 AM »

yes but surely not the Diocesan Cathedral?

No, the cathedral is the Saint Nicholas cathedral which is the seat of Bishop Gabriel (Chemodalov.)

The New Calendar Romanian church there has, if I remember rightly, the status of a cathedral church but is not the seat of a bishop.  I think it was around 2005 that it moved out of the Church Abroad, after 40 years of being within ROCA.
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Chtets Ioann
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« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2010, 03:07:34 AM »

Thank you, Father... that explains it.
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Basil 320
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« Reply #11 on: November 05, 2010, 05:19:48 AM »

It's been many years since I read what I am about to note and mentioned in Reply No. 1 above, and cannot recall where I read the information that follows.  I think it may have been something from the Center for Traditionalist Orthodox Studies in Etna, CA, American Exarchate of the Greek Synod in Resistance.  I think it was a booklet about the establishment of formal relations between them and the ROCA, which coincided with the ROCA's recognition of  St. John of San Francisco.  While I may be wrong about the source, I am sure of the information. 

The information that I read at that time was that prior to his election as First Hierarch of the ROCA, while Metropolitan Vitaly (sp) was the hierarch in Montreal (I don't recall his title exactly either, I think he was an archbishop), his cathedral in Montreal used the Revised Julian Calendar.
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« Reply #12 on: November 05, 2010, 07:42:26 AM »

Deleted. This was a repeat of message 7.
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« Reply #13 on: November 05, 2010, 10:07:16 AM »

There are both new calendar and old calender parishes in the UOC of USA under the Ecumenical Patriarch. My parish happens to be OC, but my friend's parish in Cleveland is NC.

It should be noted that even amongst Slavs who are in New Calendar parishes, come Jan 7th you'll see a lot of them seeking out Old Calendar parishes to celebrate Christmas, even though they just celebrated the feast 13 days earlier. Smiley

I know that when I was in Atlanta going to a GOA parish, I couldn't let Jan 7th go by without commemorating the date somehow. It just felt "weird." 
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« Reply #14 on: November 05, 2010, 10:46:04 AM »

Holy Trinity in Brooklyn - http://www.oca.org/DIRlisting.asp?SID=9&KEY=OCA-NY-BROCHT
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« Reply #15 on: November 11, 2010, 09:03:57 AM »

As far as I understand, the founding Abbot of St. John of San Francisco monastery in Manton CA specifically requested, and was granted, permission by their OCA Bishop for the monastery to observe the Julian calender. The founding Abbot of that monastery is now Metropolitan Jonah Smiley
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« Reply #16 on: March 14, 2011, 09:50:22 AM »

What about ACROD, UOC-USA, UOCC and Russian Exarchate?
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« Reply #17 on: March 14, 2011, 10:34:09 AM »

What about ACROD, UOC-USA, UOCC and Russian Exarchate?

While the majority of ACROD parishes are Old Calendar, any new mission is, per se, automatically New Calendar. Older parishes may conduct a vote of members, under the blessing of the hierarch on the subject once, I believe. A super-majority of an overwhelming percent is required to change (not sure what it is, but it is a large percentage) and once changed, a parish may not change its mind. (I know that because my in-laws parish changed under pressure from a former pastor, when he left, they realized that they made a mistake (most didn't attend and went, along with their Christmas offerings, to the local Serbian church on Christmas. In a small parish the holyday offerings are a big issue....They petitioned to revert and were not permitted as far as I recall.As time has passed cooler heads have prevailed, but the hurt is still there.) I think that about 20% are NC at this time, there is no movement among the rest to change at this time.

The thinking behind the super majority concept is simple. It seems that those who want to retain the old calendar are far more passionate over the issue than those who would change. To prevent schism (from which ACROD was born and the fear of further fracture always persists) it was felt that the super majority concept would preserve peace. It seems to have been a wise ruling thus far.

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« Reply #18 on: March 17, 2011, 01:15:48 AM »

I'm under the impression that the patriarchal exarchate in Canada is largely old calendar, but the exarchate in the USA is more new than old (all the parishes near where I lived in university were certainly new calendar). The UOCC is largely old calendar, but that doesn't mean there's no new calendar presence...
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« Reply #19 on: March 17, 2011, 06:23:23 AM »

I'm under the impression that the patriarchal exarchate in Canada is largely old calendar, but the exarchate in the USA is more new than old (all the parishes near where I lived in university were certainly new calendar). The UOCC is largely old calendar, but that doesn't mean there's no new calendar presence...

I mean the Orthodox Exarchate of Russian Tradition in Western Europe under Metr. Gabriel of Komana. And you are talking about?
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« Reply #20 on: March 17, 2011, 12:24:56 PM »

Ah! They have a mix as well from what I've heard. I meant the exarchates in North America for the patriarchal Russian Orthodox parishes.
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« Reply #21 on: February 19, 2012, 04:05:42 PM »

yes but surely not the Diocesan Cathedral?

No, the cathedral is the Saint Nicholas cathedral which is the seat of Bishop Gabriel (Chemodakov.)

The New Calendar Romanian church there has, if I remember rightly, the status of a cathedral church but is not the seat of a bishop.  I think it was around 2005 that it moved out of the Church Abroad, after 40 years of being within ROCA.
By the way, St. Nicholas Cathedral (OCA, Washington,D.C.) uses both the Old and New Calendars. There are services on both the old and new calendar feastdays, and if an old calendar feast falls on a sunday, the second liturgy (Slavonic;10:45) will commemorate the old calendar feast day.
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« Reply #22 on: February 20, 2012, 04:01:02 PM »

 Confusing, confusing, and more confusing.  I seriously hope and pray that we, the Orthodox, would just get on the same page already.  The calender change has disrupted the church and was an unfortunate mistake. To change the calender over one Holy Day, the Nativity was an unnecessary innovation.
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« Reply #23 on: February 20, 2012, 04:33:41 PM »

an unnecessary innovation.
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