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Author Topic: A strange practice of the French Catholic Church  (Read 3778 times) Average Rating: 0
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msmirnov
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« on: December 04, 2007, 09:04:52 AM »

One Russian girl told me once a very strange story. One or two years ago she married a French man. She was an atheist and she wasn't baptized one. But he was a catholic and he asked her for a wedding in a church after civil marriage.  She said: "OK, no problem. If it is important for you I'll take baptism and we will marry in a church." But priests said that they wouldn't baptize her but they would gladly marry this couple. So they married without her baptism.

I don't know the situation in other EO Churches but in the Russian Church it is obligatory to fast at least for 3 days, to make a confession and to receive the Eucharist in addition to baptism before marriage. If one is not ready to do this then he isn't ready to marry in the Church. I can't understand how is it possible to administer such a sacrament as a matrimony without a baptism. I do understand that it is bad to baptize an atheist, but I think that it is much worse to marry without a baptism. What for?
« Last Edit: December 04, 2007, 10:40:59 AM by msmirnov » Logged
lubeltri
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« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2007, 10:58:33 AM »

According to canon law, no valid marriage took place.

It would also be my opinion that a blasphemous "baptism" would also have been a bad idea (remember "I'm Greek now" from My Big Fat Greek Wedding?).
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« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2007, 11:02:51 AM »

According to canon law, no valid marriage took place.


As written above, yes, but if a dispensation from the bishop was obtained, and the woman agreed to be open to having children and to raise any children as Catholic (ie "The Paperwork"), then a valid one most certainly took place. 
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lubeltri
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« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2007, 11:35:52 AM »

Right, but a natural marriage, not sacramental.

Do you know how often these dispensations are granted? I guess it would depend on the liberalness of the bishop.
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« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2007, 12:03:10 PM »

I would imagine as long as the non-baptized person signs on the dotted line regarding the openness of children and the promise to raise any such children in the Catholic faith that it would be readily granted, with a prayer that the Catholic party's faith and prayer would eventually bring his or her spouse to baptism.

In such cases, though, does the marriage become a sacramental one upon the baptism of the spouse or do they have to go through another ceremony?  If I ever run into a canonist, I must remember to ask about such a situation.
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« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2007, 12:19:14 PM »

According to canon law, no valid marriage took place.

It would also be my opinion that a blasphemous "baptism" would also have been a bad idea (remember "I'm Greek now" from My Big Fat Greek Wedding?).

The scary thing is, that priest was a REAL Greek Orthodox priest.

I think the 'dad quote' summed it up:

'It's your lucky day to be baptised in the Grrrreek Orrrthodox Churrch'
« Last Edit: December 04, 2007, 12:20:00 PM by Magicsilence » Logged
ozgeorge
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« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2007, 03:12:00 PM »

It would also be my opinion that a blasphemous "baptism" would also have been a bad idea (remember "I'm Greek now" from My Big Fat Greek Wedding?).

Yeah, just like the "fact" that in "The Song of Bernadette", when she is leaving Lourdes for the Convent, Bernadette "blasphemously" says that she has "enough protection even for the horses" because she had been given four St. Christopher's medals. This just "proves" what a superstitious lot the Roman Catholics are. Roll Eyes

At least we now know where you get your "facts" from lubeltri. Here's another instance when you "use" this "source":
Yeah, it reminds me of My Big Fat Greek Wedding where the unbelieving guy gets baptized and says afterwards, "See honey, I'm Greek now!"
« Last Edit: December 04, 2007, 03:12:22 PM by ozgeorge » Logged

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« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2007, 03:16:54 PM »

Yeah, just like the "fact" that in "The Song of Bernadette", when she is leaving Lourdes for the Convent, Bernadette "blasphemously" says that she has "enough protection even for the horses" because she had been given four St. Christopher's medals. This just "proves" what a superstitious lot the Roman Catholics are. Roll Eyes

At least we now know where you get your "facts" from lubeltri. Here's another instance when you "use" this "source":

Just giving a current example for illustration, my good man. I'm not as old as you and don't remember The Song of Bernadette. . .  Wink
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« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2007, 03:18:26 PM »

ozgeorge,

Don't you think that such a practice as depicted in the film My Big, Fat Greek Wedding is, indeed, blasphemous?  

What do the failings of The Song of Bernadette have to do with this thread?  
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« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2007, 03:27:36 PM »

Don't you think that such a practice as depicted in the film My Big, Fat Greek Wedding is, indeed, blasphemous? 
Umm...No
I think it's the expression of a fiances love for his bride-to-be expressed through humour in a movie.
You two must be the most unromatic guys I've ever met!
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« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2007, 03:31:35 PM »

Hey, I thought it was funny and it was a testament to the fellow's love for his soon-to-be-wife, but that doesn't mean I didn't think it was wrong from a theological standpoint, at least the way it was depicted.

I'm far more romantic than you may think.  How many men do you know who buy their wife flowers every month to celebrate their first date? Wink  I make all my friends look bad. Grin
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« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2007, 03:41:03 PM »

Hey, I thought it was funny and it was a testament to the fellow's love for his soon-to-be-wife, but that doesn't mean I didn't think it was wrong from a theological standpoint, at least the way it was depicted.
Somehow, I doubt that "My Big Fat Greek Wedding" was an agenda item at Ravenna. Wink

I'm far more romantic than you may think.
Thank heavens for that! Now would you guys please stop taking the fun out of movies? They are my last foothold in romance. I get very little practice, at least I can keep abreast of theory!
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« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2007, 03:41:50 PM »

Umm...No
I think it's the expression of a fiances love for his bride-to-be expressed through humour in a movie.
You two must be the most unromatic guys I've ever met!

I appreciated the humor of it, but I winced as well. Remember, I grew up with the Baptists and heard time and time again about how baptism in the Catholic Church is just an "empty ritual." Well, in MBFGW, it was. And guess what? The Baptists are often right about this. I can imagine what the Evangelicals who saw that scene thought of Greek Orthodoxy.

They shoulda picked something else to use with the "I'm Greek now" bit. Christian baptism is so sacrosanct.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2007, 03:43:45 PM by lubeltri » Logged
msmirnov
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« Reply #13 on: December 05, 2007, 04:30:26 AM »

It would also be my opinion that a blasphemous "baptism" would also have been a bad idea

I don't agree. God moves in mysterious ways. For example someone was rejected to be baptized and on the next day he died non-baptized. Wouldn't the priest who rejected him feel bad about this? Besides a baptism can put a seed of faith in the soul of an atheist. Sometimes sacraments have an effect even if the man doesn't believe in their power. I had a great instance of such kind in my life.

I still can't understand the logic of the deed. If they considered that a baptism would be blasphemous in her case, why didn't they think that a marriage would be blasphemous too? In addition it seemed to her that such practice was usual in France.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2007, 04:40:45 AM by msmirnov » Logged
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« Reply #14 on: December 05, 2007, 04:40:33 AM »

One Russian girl told me once a very strange story. One or two years ago she married a French man. She was an atheist and she wasn't baptized one. But he was a catholic and he asked her for a wedding in a church after civil marriage.  She said: "OK, no problem. If it is important for you I'll take baptism and we will marry in a church." But priests said that they wouldn't baptize her but they would gladly marry this couple. So they married without her baptism.

I don't know the situation in other EO Churches but in the Russian Church it is obligatory to fast at least for 3 days, to make a confession and to receive the Eucharist in addition to baptism before marriage. If one is not ready to do this then he isn't ready to marry in the Church. I can't understand how is it possible to administer such a sacrament as a matrimony without a baptism. I do understand that it is bad to baptize an atheist, but I think that it is much worse to marry without a baptism. What for?

Our standard practice is similar to yours, baptisms of Catholics, Protestants, and Oriental Orthodox accepted. But, with that said, I know of cases where marriages with Mohammedans, Jews, and even a Buddhist were approved without baptism or conversion; in the end, it's up to the Bishop, and fortunately we have Bishops out there that will say that, ultimately, it's up to the couple.

Oh, and all our marriages are sacramental...theology vs. practice may be messy at times, but it's pragmatic.
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« Reply #15 on: December 05, 2007, 05:11:25 AM »

I know of cases where marriages with Mohammedans, Jews, and even a Buddhist were approved without baptism or conversion;

I'm really shocked!  Shocked Shocked Shocked
I was always being told and it was always obvious to me that all sacraments (except for baptism) can by applied only to the members of the Church...

Quote
theology vs. practice may be messy at times, but it's pragmatic.
Hm... With such pragmatism we can soon become Protestants...
« Last Edit: December 05, 2007, 08:35:00 AM by msmirnov » Logged
lubeltri
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« Reply #16 on: December 05, 2007, 09:16:02 AM »

Msmirnov, but what about the baptismal promises? Does the adult unbeliever just fake them? What grace is there in blasphemy?
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« Reply #17 on: December 05, 2007, 10:44:24 AM »

I agree about an adult being baptised; one would expect that their promises are entered into truthfully. To make such promises without believing what is said seems like a rather serious sin to me.
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« Reply #18 on: December 06, 2007, 03:34:13 AM »

Why are you so sure that one wouldn't keep that promises for the rest of his life? And what about us? Do we always keep baptismal promises?

I think that if one day the baptized unbeliever find Christ he will be able to confess that sin. Otherwise... What is better for an atheist: to die baptized or not?

And one more thing. I suppose that the man will probably never return to the Church where he was rejected. He may become Orthodox or Protestant or even Moslem, but the Catholic Church will most probably lose him forever.
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« Reply #19 on: December 06, 2007, 09:20:09 AM »

Why are you so sure that one wouldn't keep that promises for the rest of his life? And what about us? Do we always keep baptismal promises?

I think that if one day the baptized unbeliever find Christ he will be able to confess that sin. Otherwise... What is better for an atheist: to die baptized or not?

And one more thing. I suppose that the man will probably never return to the Church where he was rejected. He may become Orthodox or Protestant or even Moslem, but the Catholic Church will most probably lose him forever.
If you're reply was intended for me then I want to point out that I didn't say anything about breaking promises after baptism. What I said is that making the promises asked of an adult person at the time of their baptism without believing what is said in those promises is a serious sin in itself.
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« Reply #20 on: December 12, 2007, 10:02:21 PM »

"What is better for an atheist: to die baptized or not?"

Not. By blaspheming the sacrament he calls down more punishment upon himself.  Just as Holy Communion is refused to those not prepared, Baptism is not given to those unprepared or who do not really believe. This why in the early Church the Catechumenate lasted three years.

Fr. Deacon Lance
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« Reply #21 on: December 14, 2007, 05:14:45 AM »

"What is better for an atheist: to die baptized or not?"

Not. By blaspheming the sacrament he calls down more punishment upon himself.  Just as Holy Communion is refused to those not prepared, Baptism is not given to those unprepared or who do not really believe. This why in the early Church the Catechumenate lasted three years.

Fr. Deacon Lance

In general I agree with you. But the times are chanching. These days the sutiation differ from the situation of first centuries.

I know another girl. She was baprized when she was a little baby. Till her 22 she was actually unbeliever, then she became keen on occultism and yoga. In a year she was forced by blackmail to pass through the confession and Eucharist. She did it without any faith. But after that she became very faithful. That was a real miracle!

So I think that the Holy Spirit, Who actually administer any sacrament, knows the real state of the one's soul. And indeed He is the only One, Who knows must someone be baptized or not.
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« Reply #22 on: December 15, 2007, 01:29:39 AM »

The scary thing is, that priest was a REAL Greek Orthodox priest.

Actually he was not. He's a REAL Greek Orthodox chanter @  church in Toronto Wink
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« Reply #23 on: December 26, 2007, 01:59:10 AM »

And the church in the movie is a Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church in Toronto.   There are some mighty purrty Eastern Catholic Churches out there.
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« Reply #24 on: December 31, 2007, 02:25:10 AM »

And the church in the movie is a Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church in Toronto.   There are some mighty purrty Eastern Catholic Churches out there.

Why thank you!  Cheesy I wholeheartedly agree. Toronto has tons of beautiful orthodox/ Eastern Catholic/Roman Catholic and Anglican churches. Just in Toronto alone theres about 20 Greek parishes, not to mention the Russian and the myriad of other Orthodox churches.
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« Reply #25 on: May 30, 2008, 10:28:24 PM »

I don't agree. God moves in mysterious ways. For example someone was rejected to be baptized and on the next day he died non-baptized. Wouldn't the priest who rejected him feel bad about this?
I don't know what the Orthodox practice is, but I believe a Catholic priest is supposed to refuse to baptize a baby if he believes the child will not be raised as a Christian.
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