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Athanasios
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« on: December 02, 2007, 09:52:53 PM »

Hello,

In the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church this is the First Sunday of Lent. While the Eastern Rites of the Catholic Church and the Orthodox celebrate a longer period, we're still in the first half. So, I thought I would share this.

The Priest at Mass during his homily commented on how the Church has always viewed Advent as not only a preparation for the coming of the Lord at Christmas, but also as a preparation for the Second Coming of Christ. The following is from the Office of Matins today:

(Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, 15, 1-3)
We preach not one advent only of Christ, but a second also, far more glorious than the former. For the former gave a view of His patience; but the latter brings with it the crown of a divine kingdom. For all things, for the most part, are twofold in our Lord Jesus Christ: a twofold generation; one, of God, before the ages; and one, of a Virgin, at the close of the ages: His descents twofold; one, the unobserved, like rain on a fleece; and a second His open coming, which is to be. In His former advent, He was wrapped in swaddling clothes in the manger; in His second, He covers Himself with light as with a garment. In His first coming, He endured the Cross, despising shame (Hebrews 12:2); in His second, He comes attended by a host of Angels, receiving glory. We rest not then upon His first advent only, but look also for His second. And as at His first coming we said, Blessed is He that comes in the Name of the Lord, so will we repeat the same at His second coming; that when with Angels we meet our Master, we may worship Him and say, Blessed is He that comes in the Name of the Lord. The Saviour comes, not to be judged again, but to judge them who judged Him; He who before held His peace when judged, shall remind the transgressors who did those daring deeds at the Cross, and shall say, These things have you done, and I kept silence. Then, He came because of a divine dispensation, teaching men with persuasion; but this time they will of necessity have Him for their King, even though they wish it not.

And concerning these two comings, Malachi the Prophet says, And the Lord whom you seek shall suddenly come to His temple (Malachi 3:1-3); behold one coming. And again of the second coming he says, And the Messenger of the covenant whom you delight in. Behold, He comes, says the Lord Almighty. But who shall abide the day of His coming? or who shall stand when He appears? Because He comes in like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' herb; and He shall sit as a refiner and purifier. And immediately after the Saviour Himself says, And I will draw near to you in judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulteresses, and against those who swear falsely in My Name (Malachi 3:5), and the rest. For this cause Paul warning us beforehand says, If any man builds on the foundation gold, and silver, and precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; every man's work shall be made manifest; for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire (1 Corinthians 3:12). Paul also knew these two comings, when writing to Titus and saying, The grace of God has appeared which brings salvation unto all men, instructing us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, and godly, and righteously in this present world; looking for the blessed hope, and appearing of the glory of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ. You see how he spoke of a first, for which he gives thanks; and of a second, to which we look forward. Therefore the words also of the Faith which we are announcing were just now delivered thus; that we believe in Him, who also ascended into the heavens, and sat down on the right hand of the Father, and shall come in glory to judge quick and dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.

Our Lord Jesus Christ, then, comes from heaven; and He comes with glory at the end of this world, in the last day. For of this world there is to be an end, and this created world is to be re-made anew. For since corruption, and theft, and adultery, and every sort of sins have been poured forth over the earth, and blood has been mingled with blood (Hosea 4:2) in the world, therefore, that this wondrous dwelling-place may not remain filled with iniquity, this world passes away, that the fairer world may be made manifest. And would you receive the proof of this out of the words of Scripture? Listen to Esaias, saying, And the heaven shall be rolled together as a scroll; and all the stars shall fall, as leaves from a vine, and as leaves fall from a fig-tree (Isaiah 34:4). The Gospel also says, The sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven (Matthew 24:29). Let us not sorrow, as if we alone died; the stars also shall die; but perhaps rise again. And the Lord rolls up the heavens, not that He may destroy them, but that He may raise them up again more beautiful. Hear David the Prophet saying, You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands; they shall perish, but Thou remainest. But some one will say, Behold, he says plainly that they shall perish. Hear in what sense he says, they shall perish; it is plain from what follows; And they all shall wax old as does a garment; and as a vesture shall Thou fold them up, and they shall be changed. For as a man is said to "perish," according to that which is written, Behold, how the righteous perishes, and no man lays it to heart (Isaiah 57:1), and this, though the resurrection is looked for; so we look for a resurrection, as it were, of the heavens also. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood (Joel 2:31). Here let converts from the Manichees gain instruction, and no longer make those lights their gods; nor impiously think, that this sun which shall be darkened is Christ. And again hear the Lord saying, Heaven and earth shall pass away, but My words shall not pass away (Matthew 24:35); for the creatures are not as precious as the Master's words.
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« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2007, 08:17:27 PM »

God bless !

The origin of the Christmas Tree;

The Christmas Tree has its origin in the missionary endeavors of St. Boniface, the Apostel to the Germans ( celebrated Dec. 19). About 1200 years ago, as St. Boniface was attempting to evangelize the Germanic peoples, he encountered a group of pagan tribesmen in the process of sacrificing a little boy to their god in the presence of a decorated oak tree. St. Boniface leaped into action and cut the the "sacred oak" Tree down in front of them. As the oak tree fell, a young fir tree sprang up. St. Boniface immediately explained that the fir Tree was a sign of the Christian God, Jesus Christ. Since it was winter, all the sacred trees of the pagans were "dead" and "lifeless." St. Boniface compared their false gods to the dead trees.

Then he pointed to the evergreen fir tree. This is the Christian God, he instructed:
"evergreen, full of life, conquering death, every fruitful." Using the trees as his object lesson, he taught them the birth of Christ brought new life to the world. This is why today we hang lights and ornaments on our Christmas Trees. Christ is born to give new life to the world, to bring light into the darkness and to change our lifeless lives into ones that bear abudant fruit.

Hanging lights on our houses:

The practice of hanging lights on our houses actually comes from the ancient Christian custom of placing lit candles in the windows on Christmas Eve. When the Theotokos and St. Joseph the Betrophed came to Bethlehem, all the lights were out. An ancient Symbol of hospitality was a lit candle in the window. If there was no candle, there was "no room in the inn". To show that their lives and homes were open for the new Christ Child, ancient Christians took to putting candles in their windows on Christmas Eve.

In CHRIST
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« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2007, 11:15:25 PM »

Hello,

Thanks for the information on Christmas Trees. All I knew was that their modern popularity stems from Prince Albert bringing them to England from Germany when we married Queen Victoria.
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« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2007, 11:16:20 PM »

Hello,

What are the Orthodox requirements and proscriptions for fasting during Advent? Is it the same as during Great Lent?
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« Reply #4 on: December 03, 2007, 11:35:28 PM »

Hello,

What are the Orthodox requirements and proscriptions for fasting during Advent? Is it the same as during Great Lent?

It's not as strict. Fish, wine and oil are allowed on some days. Someone else will hopefully chime in with the specifics.
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« Reply #5 on: December 03, 2007, 11:41:25 PM »

http://www.goarch.org/en/chapel/calendar.asp

This calendar shows the fast for each day during the Nativity fast.   Smiley
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« Reply #6 on: December 03, 2007, 11:51:23 PM »

Hello,

Thanks. So what does the strict fast entail? What foods are or aren't allowed and how much may be consumed?
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« Reply #7 on: December 03, 2007, 11:56:09 PM »

Hello,

Thanks. So what does the strict fast entail? What foods are or aren't allowed and how much may be consumed?

It is a strict fast in that no meat or dairy products may be consumed throughout.  However, fish, wine and oil are permitted on some of the feast days (Entry of the Theotokos; special saint days) and on all weekends unless that weekend falls right before Nativity.  As for consumption, that is an area of much discussion.  Bishop +KALLISTOS wrote in his Lenten Triodion introduction that 2 meals are eaten for the duration of the Great Lent season.  Since the Nativity Fast is not as strict, I'm not sure as to how much may be consumed.  Whatever the answer may be, if there even is one, I think that the intentional reduction of food consumed and the reduction of times consumed is best left up to one's health and guidance of a spiritual father.
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« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2007, 12:02:29 AM »

Hello,

Thanks. So what does the strict fast entail? What foods are or aren't allowed and how much may be consumed?
As a general rule, I believe the Fast requires us to abstain from meat, dairy, eggs, wine (not known if this is a prohibition against alcohol that would include beer; some say yes, others say no), and olive oil (maybe, more generally, vegetable oil).  Wine and oil are permitted on Tuesdays, Thursdays, weekends, and the important feasts that occur during Advent, such as St. Nicholas Day (December 6); fish is also permitted on weekends and these special feasts.

One interesting exception regarding meat is that shellfish is not counted as meat, so you can eat lobster every day of Advent if you want.  However, you may actually violate the spirit of the fast by doing so, but that is purely a matter of your heart and convictions.  Speaking of the spirit of the fast, many have said here before that fasting is not to be seen as an end in itself; rather, it is a means to liberate us for deeper prayer and acts of mercy to those in need.  Without these, I believe we have what St. John Chrysostom called the "fasting of demons."

Regarding how much you can eat, the only rule there is that you not be a glutton.  Leave the dinner table not quite satiated is one rule I've heard.
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« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2007, 12:47:26 AM »

Hello,

Speaking of the spirit of the fast, many have said here before that fasting is not to be seen as an end in itself; rather, it is a means to liberate us for deeper prayer and acts of mercy to those in need.  Without these, I believe we have what St. John Chrysostom called the "fasting of demons."

I like what Bishop Kallistos Ware said of fasting in his True Nature of Fasting:

The primary aim of fasting is to make us conscious of our dependence upon God. If practiced seriously, the Lenten abstinence from food - particularly in the opening days - involves a considerable measure of real hunger, and also a feeling of tiredness and physical exhaustion. The purpose of this is to lead us in turn to a sense of inward brokenness and contrition; to bring us, that is, to the point where we appreciate the full force of Christ's statement, 'Without Me you can do nothing' (John 15: 5). If we always take our fill of food and drink, we easily grow over-confident in our own abilities, acquiring a false sense of autonomy and self-sufficiency. The observance of a physical fast undermines this sinful complacency. Stripping from us the specious assurance of the Pharisee - who fasted, it is true, but not in the right spirit - Lenten abstinence gives us the saving self dissatisfaction of the Publican (Luke I 8: 10-1 3). Such is the function of the hunger and the tiredness: to make us 'poor in spirit', aware of our helplessness and of our dependence on God's aid.
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« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2007, 11:47:03 AM »

and how much may be consumed?

On a strict fasting day, one should abstain from all food and drink between midnight and the 9th hour (3pm), at which point one may eat the only meal of the day, which should contain none of the foods mentioned by Peter above.

This is what the canons prescribe, but sadly very few people (inc. myself) fast properly these days.
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« Reply #11 on: December 13, 2007, 04:50:37 PM »

Hello,

On a strict fasting day, one should abstain from all food and drink between midnight and the 9th hour (3pm), at which point one may eat the only meal of the day, which should contain none of the foods mentioned by Peter above.

This is what the canons prescribe, but sadly very few people (inc. myself) fast properly these days.

Including water!  Shocked
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« Reply #12 on: December 13, 2007, 04:51:04 PM »

Hello,

So how is everyone's Advent going so far?
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« Reply #13 on: December 13, 2007, 05:26:01 PM »

Including water!  Shocked

Between midnight and the 9th hour, you should not even drink water since it's a time of absolute fasting (same as before you take Holy Communion). As I said, this is what the canons perscribe - how each individual fasts is a matter between them and their Father of confession.
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« Reply #14 on: December 13, 2007, 07:22:33 PM »

Hello,

Between midnight and the 9th hour, you should not even drink water since it's a time of absolute fasting (same as before you take Holy Communion). As I said, this is what the canons perscribe - how each individual fasts is a matter between them and their Father of confession.

Bad news for me - I get dry mouth and need water! And being a member of my parish choir, I'll feel for those poor cantors who can't have any water.

FYI, in the Latin Church, water and medicine are allowed during the Eucharistic fast - but nothing else.



How many in the Orthodox Church today - aside from monastics - fully observe the fasts of the Orthodox Church?

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« Reply #15 on: December 13, 2007, 07:40:21 PM »

How many in the Orthodox Church today - aside from monastics - fully observe the fasts of the Orthodox Church?

Who knows and why should we care about who is fasting or who is not?  "Lord maketh me to know my own sins and not to condemn my brother for Blessed art Thou unto the ages of ages.  Amen."--St. Ephraim the Syrian
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« Reply #16 on: December 14, 2007, 01:55:20 AM »

Who knows and why should we care about who is fasting or who is not?  "Lord maketh me to know my own sins and not to condemn my brother for Blessed art Thou unto the ages of ages.  Amen."--St. Ephraim the Syrian
And there's also the command of our Lord that we "not let the right hand know what the left hand is doing".
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« Reply #17 on: December 14, 2007, 10:06:43 AM »

How many in the Orthodox Church today - aside from monastics - fully observe the fasts of the Orthodox Church?



I know we are always being told anectdotally that many Orthodox people do not fast as they should per the canons, however in talking with several priests in my area they have advised me that they feel that the majority of their parish fast in some capacity.  When I asked them to explain this, they gave me several examples of the few exemptions they have authorized (economia):
1) diabetics who eat very simply but maintain the correct diet required by their illness are fasting  as they are following the spirit of the fast. Simple, no elaborate meals, they usually assign extra prayer rules and  encourage alms giving  which the priests feel is working thus the fast is observed.
2) people who can not digest vegetable proteins have been advised by physicians to eat fish---economia was granted  to them to eat only canned tuna straight from the can, no other preparation, and to follow the rest of the fasting rule.  They were also assigned a specific prayer rule and encouraged to give more alms.

The exceptions were pretty rigid and kept to the concept--little preparation, simple foods, bland, and direct to meet the specific need only of the  person.

However the priests I spoke with  indicated that the majority of their people are fasting or trying to fast with regularity according to their discussions with them.  This does not mean that people fail to fast occasionally or break the fast occasionally but in their opinion most people struggle to use the fasting ascesis regularly.They learn in confession who is having problems and start them on the road to fasting thru spiritual guidance. The priests I spoke with  emphasize the importance of the correct way to fast---that is by  prayer, almsgiving, and fasting.  Fasting from food is not enough and actually probably the easiest of the three---a true and steady, regular prayer life and the giving of funds to the Church and the poor actually seem to be the hardest to put into actual practice as they do not have a clear direction and they require more inner growth and selflessness in their components.

The fast  of the eyes, the ears, mind, and the mouth often are harder for people to achieve than the simple fasting of food according to St John Chrysostomos, I think he was right in his estimation centuries ago and it remains true today as well.

Thomas

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« Reply #18 on: December 14, 2007, 10:54:47 AM »

How many in the Orthodox Church today - aside from monastics - fully observe the fasts of the Orthodox Church?

May I just add one little thing to the excellent responses above. I can't recall the source, but somewhere in the Orthodox literature I read that if a person boasts in front of others how this person fasts, then this person commits a sin graver than not fasting at all.
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« Reply #19 on: December 14, 2007, 06:28:37 PM »

Bad news for me - I get dry mouth and need water! And being a member of my parish choir, I'll feel for those poor cantors who can't have any water.
Actually, we can drink Holy Water. As a member of my parish choir, I can say for sure that is quite a blessing during Liturgy!
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« Reply #20 on: December 15, 2007, 07:08:32 PM »

FYI, in the Latin Church, water and medicine are allowed during the Eucharistic fast - but nothing else.

Athanasios, I promise you that I'm not trying to be disrespectful - if for no other reason than you and I come from the same tradition but...

Can we really call a prohibition against solid food one hour before communion a fast?

If it takes you ten minutes to get to church and Communion comes a half hour into the Mass, it basically means that you have to finish your steak and eggs 20 mins before you leave the house.

IMHO it's been so relaxed and watered down that to call it a fast really is a stretch..

Are you ever tempted to observe the older, traditional requirements?

 
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« Reply #21 on: December 15, 2007, 08:26:24 PM »

Hello,

Athanasios, I promise you that I'm not trying to be disrespectful - if for no other reason than you and I come from the same tradition but...

Can we really call a prohibition against solid food one hour before communion a fast?

If it takes you ten minutes to get to church and Communion comes a half hour into the Mass, it basically means that you have to finish your steak and eggs 20 mins before you leave the house.

IMHO it's been so relaxed and watered down that to call it a fast really is a stretch..
Technically, yes it is a fast. Is it so relaxed that it is virtually pointless - in my opinion, yes.

And its less than 20 minutes. At a normal Sunday Mass, Communion is about 45-50 minutes in, so just make sure you're not gulping down your food as your leaving the house.

I heard that one of the reasons for the shortening of the fast is that some people cannot go more than an hour without food (medical reasons). But, the very very few people who would be affected by that type of affliction would be better off getting the consent of their confessor than affecting the whole Latin Church.

The general idea is that there is a base minimum required, but more is encouraged. However, in my opinion, this is imprudent as most people tend to be minimalists - more so today than in the past. So they are not willing to do more than what has been proscribed.

Just my



Are you ever tempted to observe the older, traditional requirements?
Yes, all the time. More often than not, I observe the three hour fast (was the canon right after Vatican II) and I will often observe the traditional fast from midnight on.

I have even done the fast from midnight to after 3 p.m. and only a single moderate meal for dinner.

Of course, I do drink regular water (bottle or tap).
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« Reply #22 on: December 16, 2007, 02:15:45 AM »

Actually, we can drink Holy Water. As a member of my parish choir, I can say for sure that is quite a blessing during Liturgy!

What exactly is this Holy Water, and what is the basis of this exception?
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« Reply #23 on: December 16, 2007, 03:13:36 AM »

What exactly is this Holy Water, and what is the basis of this exception?
I can't speak for why Holy Water, as opposed to regular water, would be permitted during the fast before Communion, except that maybe it's because the water has been sanctified.  Speaking as an active chorister, however, I can vouch for how important it is that we singers keep our vocal chords sufficiently moistened with adequate water intake.  Singing for three straight hours or longer on a Sunday morning is hard work and can dry the throat out after awhile.  It is well recognized, as well, that the Typikon expects cantors/readers and singers to observe a slightly different piety within the services of the Church, a piety not as focused on one's own worship of God as on supporting the communal worship of God and the individual piety of others in the parish/cathedral community.  This, in effect, lessens or eliminates the impact on singers some expectations placed on most worshippers while simultaneously placing upon us standards that non-singers are not expected to follow.
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« Reply #24 on: December 16, 2007, 12:58:06 PM »

I watched the Solemn Rorate High Mass on EWTN yesterday.  The priest gave a fantastic homily.  He spoke of how society is already celebrating Christmas.  He said how everyone is already singing carols, putting up lights, and when Christmas comes, it is over as soon as it begins.  He said how this is the time to prepare and that indeed we should start celebrating Christmas on Christmas until the feast is over (12 days or whatnot in the Catholic Church, or until leave taking for the Eastern Orthodox/Byzantine Catholics).
Anyway, he had some really good points, and I am sure they'll have this homily available at ewtn.com to listen to it.  I know some folks here will grumble because it is a Roman Catholic homily, but you know what, it is a very good and solid homily and I recommend listening to it. 
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« Reply #25 on: December 16, 2007, 01:48:38 PM »

Hello,

(12 days or whatnot in the Catholic Church, or until leave taking for the Eastern Orthodox/Byzantine Catholics).

What is leave taking?
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« Reply #26 on: December 16, 2007, 03:20:57 PM »

Leave Taking is the last day in a Festal period.  On the leave-taking day, all the propers from the Feast day are sung one final time.  The Festal Period is over then.  I'll have a look see at my calender here and get back to you to show you a more precise example.
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« Reply #27 on: December 16, 2007, 03:50:15 PM »

Hello,

Leave Taking is the last day in a Festal period.  On the leave-taking day, all the propers from the Feast day are sung one final time.  The Festal Period is over then.  I'll have a look see at my calender here and get back to you to show you a more precise example.

O.K. - thanks! Do you know why it is called leave taking?
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« Reply #28 on: December 16, 2007, 06:39:46 PM »

Do you know why it is called leave taking?
In English, leaving taking means a departure or farewell.
In Slavonic, the last day of the feast is called the Otdanie which literally means the giving away or the giving back of the feast.
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« Reply #29 on: December 16, 2007, 08:16:35 PM »

In English, leaving taking means a departure or farewell.
In Slavonic, the last day of the feast is called the Otdanie which literally means the giving away or the giving back of the feast.

Right... in Ukrainian, it's "Viddannya" (Paskhy, Rizdva, ...)
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« Reply #30 on: December 16, 2007, 08:44:41 PM »

Hello,

O.K. - thanks! Do you know why it is called leave taking?

In Greek, it is called the apodosis.
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« Reply #31 on: December 17, 2007, 08:43:29 PM »

Hello,

Rejoice! The Lord Is Near
Gospel Commentary for 3rd Sunday of Advent
By Father Raniero Cantalamessa, OFM Cap


Rome, December 16, 2007 (Zenit.org).- Let us take the point of departure for our reflection from what Jesus says to the disciples of John to reassure them he is the Messiah: "Glad tidings are announced to the poor."

The Gospel is a message of joy: The liturgy proclaims this on the Third Sunday of Advent, which, from the words of St. Paul in the opening antiphon, has taken the name "Gaudete Sunday" -- Rejoice Sunday, the Sunday of joy. The first reading, taken from the prophet Isaiah, is a hymn to joy: "The desert and the wasteland rejoice ... They sing with joy and jubilation ... They will be crowned with everlasting happiness; they will meet with joy and felicity and sadness and mourning will flee."

Everyone wants to be happy. If we could represent the whole of humanity to ourselves, in its deepest movement, we would see an immense crowd about a fruit tree on the tips of its toes desperately stretching out its hands in the attempt to lay hold of a piece of fruit that constantly eludes it. Happiness, Dante said, is "quell dolce pome che per tanti rami / cercando va la cura de' tanti mortali" -- "that sweet fruit that mortals seek / and strive to find on many boughs."

But if all of us are searching for happiness, why are so few truly happy and even those who are happy are only happy for such a short time? I believe that the principal reason is that, in our climb to the summit of the mountain, we go up the wrong side, we decide to take the wrong way up. Revelation says: "God is love," but man has tried to reverse the phrase so that it says: "Love is God"! (That is what the German philosopher Ludwig Feuerbach said.)

Revelation says: "God is happiness," but man again inverts the order and says "Happiness is God"! But what happens here? On earth we do not know pure happiness, just as we do not know absolute love; we only know bits and pieces of happiness, which often become mere passing stimulation of our senses. Thus, when we say, "Happiness is God," we divinize our little experiences; we call the works of our own hands or our own minds "God." We make happiness into an idol. This explains why he who seeks God always finds joy while he who seeks joy does not always find God. Man is reduced to looking for quantitative joy: chasing down ever more intense pleasures and emotions, or adding pleasure to pleasure -- just as the drug addict needs bigger and bigger doses to obtain the same level of pleasure.

Only God is happy and makes happy. This is why a psalm says: "Seek joy in the Lord, he will fulfill the desires of your heart" (Psalm 4). With him even the joys of the present life retain their sweet savor and do not change into anxiety. I am not only speaking of spiritual joys but all honest human joy: the joy of seeing your children grow, work brought happily to conclusion, friendship, health regained, creativity, art, leisure and contact with nature. Only God was able to draw from the lips of a saint the cry "Enough joy, Lord! My heart can hold no more!" In God is found all of that which man usually associates with the word "happiness" and infinitely more, since "eye has not seen nor ear heard nor has it entered the heart of man that which God has prepared for those who love him" (cf. 1 Corinthians 2:9).

It is time to proclaim with greater courage the "glad tidings" that God is happiness, that happiness -- not suffering, deprivation, the cross -- will have the last word. Suffering only serves to remove obstacles to joy, to open the soul, so that one day we can receive the greatest possible measure.

[translation by Joseph G. Trabbic]

* * *

Father Raniero Cantalamessa is the Pontifical Household preacher. The readings for today are Isaiah 35:1-6a, 8a, 10; James 5:7-10; Matthew 11:2-11.
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« Reply #32 on: December 17, 2007, 08:45:33 PM »

Hello,

In English, leaving taking means a departure or farewell.
In Slavonic, the last day of the feast is called the Otdanie which literally means the giving away or the giving back of the feast.
Ohhhhhhhhhh!!!!!

As in taking leave; I'm taking my leave; I'll take my leave.

I don't think that idiom works with reordering (which is why I didn't get it at first). Wink
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« Reply #33 on: December 17, 2007, 11:58:03 PM »

Well, having read LOTR so many times, I have no problem understanding the phrase. Smiley
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