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Author Topic: The Toronto Blessing  (Read 742 times) Average Rating: 0
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Rhinosaur
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« on: August 25, 2014, 02:58:17 PM »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQiK_hMVC2k

I've known about this for a while, but I've only just recently started to look at it again.  On the whole, I'm very skeptical about these kinds of things, but the energy and love that seems to be pouring forth from this just cannot strike me as wrong.  Is the Toronto Blessing good or bad?

I will admit that things like this give me pause:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCeVZ6e2T0E
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« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2014, 03:19:02 PM »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQiK_hMVC2k

I've known about this for a while, but I've only just recently started to look at it again.  On the whole, I'm very skeptical about these kinds of things, but the energy and love that seems to be pouring forth from this just cannot strike me as wrong.  Is the Toronto Blessing good or bad?

I will admit that things like this give me pause:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCeVZ6e2T0E

It is bad. When people laugh so hard that they lose control of their bladder, it is not funny. Plus the weird and scary animal sounds that come out of their mouths is not godliness or speaking in tongues.
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« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2014, 03:20:39 PM »

They look like they're having seizures.
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« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2014, 04:51:31 PM »

It looks a lot more like possession than with anything remotely divine.
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« Reply #4 on: August 26, 2014, 07:57:33 PM »

    I'm convinced that it is demonic :


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbVYalAE5-8
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« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2014, 08:08:04 PM »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQiK_hMVC2k

I've known about this for a while, but I've only just recently started to look at it again.  On the whole, I'm very skeptical about these kinds of things, but the energy and love that seems to be pouring forth from this just cannot strike me as wrong.  Is the Toronto Blessing good or bad?

I will admit that things like this give me pause:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCeVZ6e2T0E

What do you mean by "energy" and "love" and "wrong"?

I think it is a blessing only in the ironic sense that many people have become so cursed by modern stricture and stress that a psychosocial hysteria must be a blessed relief for them. Certainly to be relieved and to laugh are good things, but this is possibly the most lamentable form in which those goods could come. In addition, compared to the usual weeping and fainting and screaming and babbling Pentecostal revival usually comprises, I'm glad they have found an alternative. But since I think you are probably asking "Is this good worship?" or "Is this the special presence of the Holy Spirit?" my answer is no, no, no.
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« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2014, 05:42:56 PM »

This is utterly demonic.
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« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2014, 07:00:25 PM »

That this gross phenomena might be called a blessing at all smacks of a Satanic deception achieving it's very goal. People so out of control being described as experiencing a release stretches credulity, I would suggest. The danger is that good people with good will encounter such experiences without any protection that a knowledge of Prelest or Satanic deception might bring. That is frightening.

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« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2014, 11:26:24 PM »

What a bunch of nuts.
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« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2014, 11:54:36 PM »

That is pretty much the definition of mass hysteria right there.
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« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2014, 01:02:54 AM »

Well, people who participate in things like this think WE'RE the demonic ones. Many of them claim that any veneration of Mary in fact goes to the "Queen of Heaven", who according to them is not Mary, but a demon. They also use imprecatory prayers and one of them even claimed that her prayers helped kill Mother Teresa and Princess Diana. Sick, sick, sick.  Angry

This event is linked to the "New Apostolic Reformation" (NAR), a movement that claims to have restored the office of apostle. They make the classical Pentecostals (AOG, etc.) look buttoned-down. C. Peter Wagner, the guy regarded as one of the NAR's spiritual founders, claims that statues and icons of Catholic saints (presumably Orthodox ones too; people like Wagner can't really tell the difference) bring glory to the forces of darkness and must be burned or smashed.

This website gives a fairly good overview of what these people are into. Granted, the website is left-leaning, but the article itself is pretty accurate and cites its sources. http://www.talk2action.org/story/2008/10/20/195730/89
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« Reply #11 on: September 21, 2014, 01:50:22 AM »

Well, people who participate in things like this think WE'RE the demonic ones. Many of them claim that any veneration of Mary in fact goes to the "Queen of Heaven", who according to them is not Mary, but a demon. They also use imprecatory prayers and one of them even claimed that her prayers helped kill Mother Teresa and Princess Diana. Sick, sick, sick.  Angry

This event is linked to the "New Apostolic Reformation" (NAR), a movement that claims to have restored the office of apostle. They make the classical Pentecostals (AOG, etc.) look buttoned-down. C. Peter Wagner, the guy regarded as one of the NAR's spiritual founders, claims that statues and icons of Catholic saints (presumably Orthodox ones too; people like Wagner can't really tell the difference) bring glory to the forces of darkness and must be burned or smashed.

This website gives a fairly good overview of what these people are into. Granted, the website is left-leaning, but the article itself is pretty accurate and cites its sources. http://www.talk2action.org/story/2008/10/20/195730/89

Loopier than a Slinky.  Huh
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« Reply #12 on: September 21, 2014, 03:26:56 AM »

Well, people who participate in things like this think WE'RE the demonic ones. Many of them claim that any veneration of Mary in fact goes to the "Queen of Heaven", who according to them is not Mary, but a demon.
I love them people who now better than you what is a sign of worship for you and who you worship. They remind me of Muslims who say that you worship three gods no matter how hard you try to explain Trinity to them (not saying all Muslims are like this). It's the "I don't understand how their culture works so my assumptions about their practices must be right" type of thinking.
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« Reply #13 on: Yesterday at 10:01:13 AM »

It is frightening. Looking deeper into this movement, specifically the Bethel Church/Bill Johnson/hillsong, it is a very powerful and resourceful ministry. Big emphasis on emotion and signs and miracles, I've even read about 'fire tunnels' at their conferences/music events where people walk through to be 'baptized by fire' and experience these physical contortions. I did a lot of research recently because a neighbor, whom I love, is attending a church that follows their teachings.

The world is a strange place. I am thankful every day that I found Orthodoxy and its firm ground.
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« Reply #14 on: Yesterday at 01:25:37 PM »

can you tell me how you know the 'new apostolic reformations' group is linked to the toronto 'vineyard' churches?
i didn't see it on that webpage.

sure they should both be avoided, but i'm not sure if they are actually linked.
it's a shame so many sincere people get caught up in all this.
may God have mercy on them.
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« Reply #15 on: Yesterday at 01:46:13 PM »

"The Internet was always characterized by people calling each other sick freaks, weirdos, and religious crackpots" ...
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« Reply #16 on: Yesterday at 01:58:41 PM »

can you tell me how you know the 'new apostolic reformations' group is linked to the toronto 'vineyard' churches?
i didn't see it on that webpage.

sure they should both be avoided, but i'm not sure if they are actually linked.
it's a shame so many sincere people get caught up in all this.
may God have mercy on them.

It is somewhat convoluted. I watched several youtube videos once upon a time re: the specific characters involved in this movement, how they are linked, but this article is relatively helpful. They are obviously biased but they at least link to additional information. http://www.proveritate.org/blog/signs-wonders-heretical-teachings-bethel-church

As noted in the article, "In researching this piece, it became apparent that the interconnectedness, networking, and entanglement between the various players and organizations in the Word-faith and "Signs and Wonders" movement is astounding yet subtle to the uninformed. In order to fully appreciate and recognize the influence and potential damage of this movement on the church, one must be extremely diligent in making the connections between the New Apostolic Reformation and its players, Bill Johnson, Randy Clark, Bethel Church, Global Awakening, International House of Prayer, Mike Bickle, and the list goes on. There is not one name or denomination that readily identifies the affiliation of these ministries, so one must really understand the foundation of the movement, the major players, and their interconnectedness and ability to network with and influence other Christian organizations and prominent leaders."
I also found this as I researched.
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« Reply #17 on: Yesterday at 02:01:30 PM »

Well, according to this article (from the same source as the one I quoted above), the Toronto Vineyard church and the NAR have a lot of supporters in common, and their history is very much intertwined. One figure associated with both, Che Ahn, wrote:

"As I look back through the history of revival, I see that every wave of God's outpouring is important because, in each revival, He restores something.  In fact, over the past half-century, we see that in each movement God restored an office within the five-fold ministry, including apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers.

...In the 'Third Wave' of the 1980s, God brought forth prophets, as John Wimber introduced the 'Kansas City prophets' Paul Cain, Mike Bickle, Bob Jones, James Goll, and Jill Austin.  Other prophets emerged during that period, including my friend and covenant brother Lou Engle, my sister in the Lord Cindy Jacobs, Jane Hamon and Chuck Pierce.  The 1994 revival in Toronto restored the office of the apostle with the birth of many apostolic networks, including John and Carol Arnott's Partners in Harvest, Rick Joyner's MorningStar, Bill Johnson's Global Legacy, Heidi and Rolland Baker's Iris Ministries and our church's own Harvest International Ministry.

Now, in 2009, we see the convergence of all five of these restored offices coming together and being expressed through the Body of Christ in His followers the saints."


Cain, Bickle, Engle, Joyner, Baker and Jacobs are all leading figures in the NAR. Not all of these people use the term "New Apostolic Reformation"--that's a term primarily associated with C. Peter Wagner--but they're all part of the same general movement. They're often careful to downplay the most unusual aspects of their beliefs when addressing mainstream evangelicals.

There was an older thread on these boards about "Joel's Army". That's another name for the NAR.
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« Reply #18 on: Yesterday at 02:09:32 PM »

Jim Garlow (another figure linked to this movement) apparently even finagled his way into being interviewed on Ancient Faith Radio: http://www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts/thearena/a_fight_for_our_nations_soul_an_interview_with_pastor_jim_garlow

I don't think they sought him out. I think it's more likely he contacted them, asked to be interviewed, and they complied because they had a shortage of guests or something  Undecided. One thing the NAR people excel in is self-promotion. After all, when you see yourself as a modern-day apostle, why wouldn't you want everyone to know your name?
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« Reply #19 on: Yesterday at 02:12:14 PM »

Jim Garlow (another figure linked to this movement) apparently even finagled his way into being interviewed on Ancient Faith Radio: http://www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts/thearena/a_fight_for_our_nations_soul_an_interview_with_pastor_jim_garlow

I don't think they sought him out. I think it's more likely he contacted them, asked to be interviewed, and they complied because they had a shortage of guests or something  Undecided. One thing the NAR people excel in is self-promotion. After all, when you see yourself as a modern-day apostle, why wouldn't you want everyone to know your name?
The fact that such an interview is on ancientfaith.com is ridiculous.
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« Reply #20 on: Yesterday at 03:10:52 PM »

The church from which I am currently plotting my escape has been into this stuff for a long time.  I questioned it for the first time in the mid-90s and that earned me a caution from the pastor that if I question a legitimate move of the Holy Spirit I could find myself in a position of eternal damnation (red alert!). That scared me for a while.  But it is getting more and more ridiculous.  First it was the Toronto Blessing, then we moved into the whole Mike Bickle/IHOP phase and now we are moving into the Bethel motif.  We don't hear much about Jesus, very little about the Trinity, and the Bible has been pretty much elevated to take the place of them all.  Ask a question and you will find yourself in the middle of a proof-texting war.  Right now what I am seeing is an emphasis on the miraculous.  I think that is supposed to validate their theology, such as it is.  Never mind following Jesus, we just want to do "the stuff" he did.

LONG story short, I have come to the conclusion that I need to get out. I started looking around for another church.  Once I filter them for their views on the atonement, biblical inerrancy and eschatology just for starters, there was not much left.  I stumbled across EO, knowing absolutely nothing about it. The more I looked into Orthodoxy, the more I am convinced it is the one true church. I found to my pleasant surprise many things I have come to believe are what the true church believes and always has.  Like I  was becoming Orthodox and didn't even know it! No more silly songs like "Jump, jump, jump in the river!"  I am just enthralled with the reverence of Orthodox worship.  How could I have missed this treasure for so long?

Pray for me!  It will not be easy, as I expect many of these folks who have been dear friends will not speak to me when I make the leap publicly.  This will hurt. It may be a lonely road for a while but I know there are many dear people in the CHURCH who will be happy to be my friends.
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« Reply #21 on: Yesterday at 03:14:47 PM »

I will admit that it was very difficult when I left my previous church because I did lose quite a few friends. Of course, I made new friends at the Orthodox church that I attend at now, but it did hurt for awhile going from a big circle of people I knew to being lonely. My parish is fortunately very friendly and welcoming, so that did make my transition easier.
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« Reply #22 on: Yesterday at 03:19:23 PM »

Trisagion, did any of your family come with you?  The only one showing any interest at all is my mother, who first influenced me to consider Jesus.  She was greatly influenced by the Charismatic Renewal, but I am afraid would not recognize it now. It has gone so far downhill.
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« Reply #23 on: Yesterday at 03:24:52 PM »

Trisagion, did any of your family come with you?  The only one showing any interest at all is my mother, who first influenced me to consider Jesus.  She was greatly influenced by the Charismatic Renewal, but I am afraid would not recognize it now. It has gone so far downhill.
No, my parents think I'm a heretic and refuse to even discuss it. They like to pretend that I'm not actually going there, which is rather awkward. My brother is interested in the teachings of Orthodoxy, but his wife is against it, so he is not pursuing it. My wife is very against it because she thinks all the prayers, incense and icons are "weird". She insists that our two daughters continue to attend church with her at the Methodist church, so I go with them at 9am and then attend Divine Liturgy at 10am by myself.
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« Reply #24 on: Yesterday at 03:30:14 PM »

That is sad.  I am so sorry and pray that this will change for you.

My biggest complication is this:  My daughter is married to the pastor's son and thus we share 5 grandchildren. At least my son-in-law has decided a couple years ago to leave his dad's church. But it will make for some very awkward holidays since we do get together with all of them.
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« Reply #25 on: Yesterday at 03:34:45 PM »

That is sad.  I am so sorry and pray that this will change for you.

My biggest complication is this:  My daughter is married to the pastor's son and thus we share 5 grandchildren. At least my son-in-law has decided a couple years ago to leave his dad's church. But it will make for some very awkward holidays since we do get together with all of them.

Lord have mercy.
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« Reply #26 on: Yesterday at 03:36:24 PM »

That is sad.  I am so sorry and pray that this will change for you.

My biggest complication is this:  My daughter is married to the pastor's son and thus we share 5 grandchildren. At least my son-in-law has decided a couple years ago to leave his dad's church. But it will make for some very awkward holidays since we do get together with all of them.
Yes, I could see how that would complicate matters. When people asked why I was leaving (I was a deacon, so it wasn't like I could just slip away), I just told them that God has put me on a journey and I need to see where it leads. I didn't want to get into arguments over whose church is better or what points of doctrine are or are not right. Those conversations are never profitable. I don't even think I told most people where I intended on going, only those who really were interested in what was going on with me. I hope and pray that God will give you the strength to be demonstrate graciousness through the ordeal and perhaps he will see something in you that causes him to reflect.
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« Reply #27 on: Yesterday at 03:42:18 PM »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQiK_hMVC2k

I've known about this for a while, but I've only just recently started to look at it again.  On the whole, I'm very skeptical about these kinds of things, but the energy and love that seems to be pouring forth from this just cannot strike me as wrong.  Is the Toronto Blessing good or bad?

I will admit that things like this give me pause:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCeVZ6e2T0E

People that are starving will consider rotten food as a blessing. That anyone could think this is miraculous or a blessing is just a testament to the banality of modern western life. People think they need to act crazy to be uplifted - but a 'sober' looking liturgy will make your soul soar like nothing else ever could.
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« Reply #28 on: Yesterday at 03:46:10 PM »

My wife is very against it because she thinks all the prayers, incense and icons are "weird".

She's read/heard the Bible right? Its REALLY "weird."
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« Reply #29 on: Yesterday at 04:00:45 PM »

People that are starving will consider rotten food as a blessing. That anyone could think this is miraculous or a blessing is just a testament to the banality of modern western life. People think they need to act crazy to be uplifted - but a 'sober' looking liturgy will make your soul soar like nothing else ever could.
[/quote]

Yes!  I pinch my self every day to make sure I am awake and this is not a dream!  My soul has been soaring like never before!
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« Reply #30 on: Yesterday at 04:02:52 PM »

People that are starving will consider rotten food as a blessing. That anyone could think this is miraculous or a blessing is just a testament to the banality of modern western life. People think they need to act crazy to be uplifted - but a 'sober' looking liturgy will make your soul soar like nothing else ever could.
Quote from: NanaDeborah
Yes!  I pinch my self every day to make sure I am awake and this is not a dream!  My soul has been soaring like never before!

Yay!  angel
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« Reply #31 on: Yesterday at 06:12:15 PM »

Welcome to the forum, NanaDeborah!
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« Reply #32 on: Yesterday at 06:41:30 PM »

Welcome to the forum, NanaDeborah!

Thank you, so,happy to be here!
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« Reply #33 on: Yesterday at 06:58:21 PM »

... I think it is a blessing only in the ironic sense that many people have become so cursed by modern stricture and stress that a psychosocial hysteria must be a blessed relief for them. Certainly to be relieved and to laugh are good things, but this is possibly the most lamentable form in which those goods could come...

Well said. 

I don't know if the people in the video are being led by the devil, but I would say that the leaders are somewhere in the range between shyster and severely misguided.

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