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Online Agabus

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Re: ITT: Calvinism
« Reply #45 on: November 08, 2017, 11:47:43 AM »
Also Depending on who you ask Leithart is supposed to be expelled from the PCA along with the rest of Federal Visionists. Just goes to show the number of schisms in Calvinism.

I didn't realize he was still with the PCA. I just figured at this point he would have done like Wilkins and his church and joined a more receptive confederation.
funny story: he and another fella was exonerated by the GA, which in turned caused a few ruling/teaching elders to jump ship to the opc.

Another funny story: I attended the OPC church that served as the neutral ground for Wilkins' heresy trial.

What were the specific heresy accusations?

Keep in mind that this was 12 years ago and I certainly wasn't in the room when it all went down, but the charges essentially boiled down to you are using the words of the Confessional statements to mean something different than they have historically been understood. A lot of the FV debate back then included people on both sides proof-texting the Westminster and first- and second-generation Reformed theologians to show how it supported their position. It was sort of interpretive linguistics.

At its core was a debate about the role the sacraments play in election, with the FV people saying, "Yes, of course the sacraments play a role, because we believe in corporate election in the same sense that Israel was corporately elect, even if reprobates were also part of the covenant community; the sacraments are initiation into that community," while opponents kind of heard what they wanted and yelled a lot about faith alone.
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Online Agabus

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Re: ITT: Calvinism
« Reply #46 on: November 08, 2017, 12:03:13 PM »
If you're interested, here's his written answers to the presbytery's examination of his theology. Honestly, I'm not sure this clears the water significantly, which is why the issue continued to be an issue after the fact.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2017, 12:06:15 PM by Agabus »
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Offline walterturkey

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Re: ITT: Calvinism
« Reply #47 on: November 08, 2017, 12:42:25 PM »
http://theaquilareport.com/grateful-and-grieved-my-goodbye-to-the-pca/

this is a parting letter from a pastor who left the PCA over the exonerations of Wilkins and liethart. the main points of contention is that the Federal Vision is incompatible with the Westminster Confession of Faith, which this letter addresses point by point near the end. while the fv not strictly eastern orthodox, it does have a similar feel:

the FVists, influenced by the New perspective of Paul,   hint at Synergy and the possibility that the elected are not preserved  which is a huge no-no in calvinism. and the emphasis on the Church with vestments, high church liturgy  and a liturgical calender are icing on the cake.

and while strict calvinists say the debate is over, there's still heated discussion about election and those who fall away from the faith, and whether God would offer these the image of faith but not faith itself, and whether the assurance proposed in the preserverance of saints is something anyone can truly claim. the response is usually "think like a Calvinists but live arminian" which is nonsensical.



Offline juliogb

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Re: ITT: Calvinism
« Reply #48 on: November 08, 2017, 12:43:40 PM »
I wasn't aware that Peter Leithart was a presbyterian, I allways thought he was some sort of reformed anglican, does someone where he is now? is he still persona non grata in PCA? Did he moved to another denomination?

I read a little about all the FV debate, I found curious of how many people out there see the Westminster Confession in a similar way a orthodox sees Tradition and the Fathers or a catholic sees the Magisterium, it is weird seeing people that subscribe to Sola Scriptura having such a high vision of a confession.

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Re: ITT: Calvinism
« Reply #49 on: November 08, 2017, 12:51:16 PM »
I read a little about all the FV debate, I found curious of how many people out there see the Westminster Confession in a similar way a orthodox sees Tradition and the Fathers or a catholic sees the Magisterium, it is weird seeing people that subscribe to Sola Scriptura having such a high vision of a confession.

The Confessional adherence is a kind of reinforcing bias. "We believe in the Confession inasmuch as it does not contradict Scripture; however, we believe the Confession is the best reading of Scripture."
Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

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Offline Iconodule

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Re: ITT: Calvinism
« Reply #50 on: November 08, 2017, 12:51:52 PM »
How sad would it be to have your tradition pinned on such a dismal document as the Westminster confession? At least with, say, the Heidelberg catechism, there's some faint flicker of Christian warmth.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2017, 12:52:15 PM by Iconodule »
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Re: ITT: Calvinism
« Reply #51 on: November 08, 2017, 12:54:17 PM »
How sad would it be to have your tradition pinned on such a dismal document as the Westminster confession? At least with, say, the Heidelberg catechism, there's some faint flicker of Christian warmth.

I always preferred the Three Forms of Unity over anything English Calvinists could cook up.
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Offline walterturkey

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Re: ITT: Calvinism
« Reply #52 on: November 08, 2017, 12:54:49 PM »
I wasn't aware that Peter Leithart was a presbyterian, I allways thought he was some sort of reformed anglican, does someone where he is now? is he still persona non grata in PCA? Did he moved to another denomination?

I read a little about all the FV debate, I found curious of how many people out there see the Westminster Confession in a similar way a orthodox sees Tradition and the Fathers or a catholic sees the Magisterium, it is weird seeing people that subscribe to Sola Scriptura having such a high vision of a confession.

his wiki notes that he's now in the Communion of Reformed evangelical churches but blog posts dated to 2016 complaining about laxity in the PCA still mention him as still within the PCA. the wiki itself said the PCA jurisdiction he lives in refused to let him work in a non pca church so that's all i can offer.

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Re: ITT: Calvinism
« Reply #53 on: November 08, 2017, 12:59:28 PM »
...Communion of Reformed evangelical churches...

If there was ever such a thing as a hardline ecumenical Reformed body...

"OK, listen here, you gotta adhere to a confession, but it can be Presbyterian, Anglican or Baptist, so pick one."
Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH

Offline walterturkey

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Re: ITT: Calvinism
« Reply #54 on: November 08, 2017, 01:06:23 PM »
...Communion of Reformed evangelical churches...

If there was ever such a thing as a hardline ecumenical Reformed body...

"OK, listen here, you gotta adhere to a confession, but it can be Presbyterian, Anglican or Baptist, so pick one."

ha. this is how the reformed say they have catholicity.

interesting fact: the PCA allows would be elders to opt out of some portions of the WCF, most opt out of the sabbath portion so they can go rock climbing on Sunday.

Offline juliogb

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Re: ITT: Calvinism
« Reply #55 on: November 08, 2017, 01:12:28 PM »
I read a little about all the FV debate, I found curious of how many people out there see the Westminster Confession in a similar way a orthodox sees Tradition and the Fathers or a catholic sees the Magisterium, it is weird seeing people that subscribe to Sola Scriptura having such a high vision of a confession.

The Confessional adherence is a kind of reinforcing bias. "We believe in the Confession inasmuch as it does not contradict Scripture; however, we believe the Confession is the best reading of Scripture."


Well, I get that idea that if I follow this confessionalist line I could justify Orthodoxy for protestants ''we believe in the Fathers and Tradition because they do not contradict Scripture at all''.

Offline walterturkey

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Re: ITT: Calvinism
« Reply #56 on: November 08, 2017, 01:41:19 PM »
I read a little about all the FV debate, I found curious of how many people out there see the Westminster Confession in a similar way a orthodox sees Tradition and the Fathers or a catholic sees the Magisterium, it is weird seeing people that subscribe to Sola Scriptura having such a high vision of a confession.

The Confessional adherence is a kind of reinforcing bias. "We believe in the Confession inasmuch as it does not contradict Scripture; however, we believe the Confession is the best reading of Scripture."


Well, I get that idea that if I follow this confessionalist line I could justify Orthodoxy for protestants ''we believe in the Fathers and Tradition because they do not contradict Scripture at all''.

the common objection for the Calvinist is that orthodoxy imposes a centralized form of church governance as opposed to the confederationism of the Presbytery, and then an endless back and forth of proof texting every little peice of the liturgy and the decoration of the Church and even the physicality of church is necessary.

you can rationalize this effectively
10. is the church necessary y/n
20. is it important to attend church y/n
30 is church membership important y/n
40 is the church a holy place y/n
etc.

and even if they agree, they'll default to the Samaritan at the well and that the individual must worship in spirit.



Offline Iconodule

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Re: ITT: Calvinism
« Reply #57 on: November 08, 2017, 03:02:00 PM »

interesting fact: the PCA allows would be elders to opt out of some portions of the WCF, most opt out of the sabbath portion so they can go rock climbing on Sunday.

 :laugh:
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Re: ITT: Calvinism
« Reply #58 on: November 09, 2017, 01:29:08 AM »
Also Depending on who you ask Leithart is supposed to be expelled from the PCA along with the rest of Federal Visionists. Just goes to show the number of schisms in Calvinism.

I didn't realize he was still with the PCA. I just figured at this point he would have done like Wilkins and his church and joined a more receptive confederation.
funny story: he and another fella was exonerated by the GA, which in turned caused a few ruling/teaching elders to jump ship to the opc.

Another funny story: I attended the OPC church that served as the neutral ground for Wilkins' heresy trial.

What were the specific heresy accusations?

Keep in mind that this was 12 years ago and I certainly wasn't in the room when it all went down, but the charges essentially boiled down to you are using the words of the Confessional statements to mean something different than they have historically been understood. A lot of the FV debate back then included people on both sides proof-texting the Westminster and first- and second-generation Reformed theologians to show how it supported their position. It was sort of interpretive linguistics.

At its core was a debate about the role the sacraments play in election, with the FV people saying, "Yes, of course the sacraments play a role, because we believe in corporate election in the same sense that Israel was corporately elect, even if reprobates were also part of the covenant community; the sacraments are initiation into that community," while opponents kind of heard what they wanted and yelled a lot about faith alone.

Thanks.
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Offline maneki_neko

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Re: ITT: Calvinism
« Reply #59 on: November 13, 2017, 01:15:13 AM »
Well, I get that idea that if I follow this confessionalist line I could justify Orthodoxy for protestants ''we believe in the Fathers and Tradition because they do not contradict Scripture at all''.

This is pretty much how I defend our conversion to my family. It's the closest they can come to accepting/understanding us leaving Protestantism.
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Re: ITT: Calvinism
« Reply #60 on: November 13, 2017, 08:23:21 AM »
So, is there anybody who can fairly be called "Hyper-calvinist" or who calls themselves that? Or is it purely an outside pejorative?
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The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
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Re: ITT: Calvinism
« Reply #61 on: November 13, 2017, 11:34:53 AM »
So, is there anybody who can fairly be called "Hyper-calvinist" or who calls themselves that? Or is it purely an outside pejorative?
I think there are those who can be fairly called such (e.g. the Primitive Baptists, who reject the call for missionary service on the grounds that election is a done deal), but I don't know anyone who will wear the label willingly, some on the grounds that it's meant to be a pejorative and others because they would want to eschew any label other than Christian.
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THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH

Offline juliogb

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Re: ITT: Calvinism
« Reply #62 on: November 13, 2017, 12:04:46 PM »
So, is there anybody who can fairly be called "Hyper-calvinist" or who calls themselves that? Or is it purely an outside pejorative?

Probably a outside pejorative, I often heard something like ''I am fundamentalist calvinist'' or ''5 point calvinist'', but never ''hypercalvinist''.

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Re: ITT: Calvinism
« Reply #63 on: November 13, 2017, 12:06:05 PM »
If they are Trekkies, they call themselves Warp Calvinists.
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Offline walterturkey

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Re: ITT: Calvinism
« Reply #64 on: November 13, 2017, 12:26:07 PM »
So, is there anybody who can fairly be called "Hyper-calvinist" or who calls themselves that? Or is it purely an outside pejorative?

Probably a outside pejorative, I often heard something like ''I am fundamentalist calvinist'' or ''5 point calvinist'', but never ''hypercalvinist''.

its usually an outside term, most reject it because the doctrine holds God as the author of evil. the real world calvist would rather struggle with the blatant logical ending point of double predestination and total depravity

Offline maneki_neko

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Re: ITT: Calvinism
« Reply #65 on: November 13, 2017, 02:11:53 PM »
I think there are those who can be fairly called such (e.g. the Primitive Baptists, who reject the call for missionary service on the grounds that election is a done deal)...

Huh, I had no idea such people existed. I started coming to that conclusion myself after being taught election in high school. Missionary service made zero sense to me in that context.
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Re: ITT: Calvinism
« Reply #66 on: November 13, 2017, 02:40:26 PM »
I think there are those who can be fairly called such (e.g. the Primitive Baptists, who reject the call for missionary service on the grounds that election is a done deal)...

Huh, I had no idea such people existed. I started coming to that conclusion myself after being taught election in high school. Missionary service made zero sense to me in that context.

This was the American religious norm before Methodism (the original British Invasion ;)). In the early 1800s, all major American grassroots denominations experienced major splits over this question, viz., missionary work and the preaching of revivals when Scripture so plainly taught (according to the old view) that no man can be saved by the will of men.
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Re: ITT: Calvinism
« Reply #67 on: November 13, 2017, 02:43:33 PM »
So, is there anybody who can fairly be called "Hyper-calvinist" or who calls themselves that? Or is it purely an outside pejorative?

Probably a outside pejorative, I often heard something like ''I am fundamentalist calvinist'' or ''5 point calvinist'', but never ''hypercalvinist''.

its usually an outside term, most reject it because the doctrine holds God as the author of evil. the real world calvist would rather struggle with the blatant logical ending point of double predestination and total depravity

For sure. Since "hyper-" here means "excessively," and it's impossible to be "excessively" correct or true.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Offline walterturkey

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Re: ITT: Calvinism
« Reply #68 on: November 13, 2017, 04:00:29 PM »
https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/reviews/search-ancient-roots-ken-stewart/

just a small taste of ancient-futurism from the Gospel Coalition. there's more noise about appropriating RC/EO/OO traditions in order to stop the flow of older, respectable protestants from leaving to the Apostolic traditions.


also thought I'd just add that my session drew up new membership contracts which open with an affirmation of sola scriptura, apparently written in response to my interest in greek orthodoxy.  i do not recall if it was there in the original vow but its definitely the first line now.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2017, 04:00:47 PM by walterturkey »

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Re: ITT: Calvinism
« Reply #69 on: November 13, 2017, 09:35:31 PM »
So, is there anybody who can fairly be called "Hyper-calvinist" or who calls themselves that? Or is it purely an outside pejorative?
I think there are those who can be fairly called such (e.g. the Primitive Baptists, who reject the call for missionary service on the grounds that election is a done deal), but I don't know anyone who will wear the label willingly, some on the grounds that it's meant to be a pejorative and others because they would want to eschew any label other than Christian.

I forgot that was a Primitive Baptist thing. I remember that William Carey (I think) faced opposition like that when he was organizing his mission to India and I thought it was more of an extinct 19th Century thing.
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Re: ITT: Calvinism
« Reply #70 on: November 13, 2017, 09:40:04 PM »
https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/reviews/search-ancient-roots-ken-stewart/

just a small taste of ancient-futurism from the Gospel Coalition. there's more noise about appropriating RC/EO/OO traditions in order to stop the flow of older, respectable protestants from leaving to the Apostolic traditions.


also thought I'd just add that my session drew up new membership contracts which open with an affirmation of sola scriptura, apparently written in response to my interest in greek orthodoxy.  i do not recall if it was there in the original vow but its definitely the first line now.

Well, I guess it's always nice to be thought of!
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Re: ITT: Calvinism
« Reply #71 on: November 13, 2017, 10:10:29 PM »
So, is there anybody who can fairly be called "Hyper-calvinist" or who calls themselves that? Or is it purely an outside pejorative?
I think there are those who can be fairly called such (e.g. the Primitive Baptists, who reject the call for missionary service on the grounds that election is a done deal), but I don't know anyone who will wear the label willingly, some on the grounds that it's meant to be a pejorative and others because they would want to eschew any label other than Christian.

I forgot that was a Primitive Baptist thing. I remember that William Carey (I think) faced opposition like that when he was organizing his mission to India and I thought it was more of an extinct 19th Century thing.

It increasingly is with them refusing to reproduce and all.

In my father's family, all the old people kept the faith, and the second and third generations (who aren't exactly spring chickens themselves) moved onto pastures where grace flowed a little freer.
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THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH

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Re: ITT: Calvinism
« Reply #72 on: November 13, 2017, 10:41:14 PM »
So, is there anybody who can fairly be called "Hyper-calvinist" or who calls themselves that? Or is it purely an outside pejorative?
I think there are those who can be fairly called such (e.g. the Primitive Baptists, who reject the call for missionary service on the grounds that election is a done deal), but I don't know anyone who will wear the label willingly, some on the grounds that it's meant to be a pejorative and others because they would want to eschew any label other than Christian.

I forgot that was a Primitive Baptist thing. I remember that William Carey (I think) faced opposition like that when he was organizing his mission to India and I thought it was more of an extinct 19th Century thing.

It increasingly is with them refusing to reproduce and all.

In my father's family, all the old people kept the faith, and the second and third generations (who aren't exactly spring chickens themselves) moved onto pastures where grace flowed a little freer.

Going the way of the Shakers, I guess.

No one really converting to the No Hellers, though. I wonder why. Are they just too geographically isolated or can't overcome the sense of being heretics?
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Re: ITT: Calvinism
« Reply #73 on: November 15, 2017, 11:48:03 AM »
So, is there anybody who can fairly be called "Hyper-calvinist" or who calls themselves that? Or is it purely an outside pejorative?
I think there are those who can be fairly called such (e.g. the Primitive Baptists, who reject the call for missionary service on the grounds that election is a done deal), but I don't know anyone who will wear the label willingly, some on the grounds that it's meant to be a pejorative and others because they would want to eschew any label other than Christian.

I forgot that was a Primitive Baptist thing. I remember that William Carey (I think) faced opposition like that when he was organizing his mission to India and I thought it was more of an extinct 19th Century thing.

It increasingly is with them refusing to reproduce and all.

In my father's family, all the old people kept the faith, and the second and third generations (who aren't exactly spring chickens themselves) moved onto pastures where grace flowed a little freer.

Going the way of the Shakers, I guess.

No one really converting to the No Hellers, though. I wonder why. Are they just too geographically isolated or can't overcome the sense of being heretics?

I had a longer response to this that was eaten in the database error earthquake, but the short answer is that the No Hellers have always been a minority report isolated to a fairly small region. If the estimates on their numbers from Google are any indication, there are more Orthodox in Appalachia than No Hellers.

Even if they were tempted by the sect, I think most ex-Primitive Baptists want something that doesn't feel like their old home, which — despite its hard determinism on election — can be pretty legalistic.
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Re: ITT: Calvinism
« Reply #74 on: November 16, 2017, 01:02:21 AM »
Ah, ok.
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Offline juliogb

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Re: ITT: Calvinism
« Reply #75 on: November 16, 2017, 06:34:01 AM »
First time I see this ''non heller'' term.


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Re: ITT: Calvinism
« Reply #76 on: November 16, 2017, 10:26:59 AM »
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The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline David Young

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Re: ITT: Calvinism
« Reply #77 on: November 19, 2017, 04:18:34 AM »
I find myself puzzled. Why is it (I wonder) that you Orthodox, of whom I assume a high percentage live in the USA, focus so much on Calvinism? There are other varieties of Protestantism - Arminians, Pentecostals - who seem to attract your ire a good deal less. Why is that? Here in Britain, Calvinism almost died out, preserved in England mainly only by a small section of Baptists. From the 1950s, Calvinism has enjoyed a strong resurgence over here: I am not familiar with the situation on the other side of the Atlantic. But whether Calvinism is currently the major theological fashion among Prots, or whether it remains proportionately minimal, I am still interested in why it is that 'brand' of Protestantism that you especially target. Please explain.
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Re: ITT: Calvinism
« Reply #78 on: November 19, 2017, 04:34:28 AM »
I'm not sure that I've seen much specifically addressing Calvinism from an Orthodox perspective. The only reason it's come up a lot around here lately is due to beebert (who is not Orthodox) being obsessed with it. Other than that, when most Orthodox critique Protestants it generally tends to be of a generic variety, concerning ideas held by many or most Protestants. This seems to be my general impression of most sites and books as well. Perhaps on social media or the blogosphere things are different?

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Re: ITT: Calvinism
« Reply #79 on: November 19, 2017, 05:02:13 AM »
I find myself puzzled. Why is it (I wonder) that you Orthodox, of whom I assume a high percentage live in the USA, focus so much on Calvinism? There are other varieties of Protestantism - Arminians, Pentecostals - who seem to attract your ire a good deal less. Why is that? Here in Britain, Calvinism almost died out, preserved in England mainly only by a small section of Baptists. From the 1950s, Calvinism has enjoyed a strong resurgence over here: I am not familiar with the situation on the other side of the Atlantic. But whether Calvinism is currently the major theological fashion among Prots, or whether it remains proportionately minimal, I am still interested in why it is that 'brand' of Protestantism that you especially target. Please explain.

I don't know if it's focused on a lot by the Orthodox, but it's focused on by theology geeks like me because of its highly challenging conception of God- both offensive and fascinating to us in probably equal measure (I flirted with Calvinism for a few years, but never joined one of their churches, a lot of Orthodox converts around here like Hinterlander seem to come from a somewhat Reformed background). Though you're right that there has been something of a big Calvinist resurgence in Protestantism in America via the work of John MacArthur, Adrian Rogers, John Piper, Mark Driscoll (before his disgrace), and others- though I don't know if it's actually a majority view. In the case of Arminians, it seems like it's more considering their soteriology to be so close to the Orthodox view as to not warrant comment.

For Pentecostalism, there's been a couple of threads on it recently:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=72498.0
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,72580.0.html
Here's a blog post on the same topic because I can't find the third thread I was looking for http://byztex.blogspot.com/2017/11/a-criticism-of-ukrainian-catholic.html
Fr. Andrew Stephen Damick has a lot of material on Pentecostalism both in his book Orthodoxy and Heterodoxy as well as on his blog https://blogs.ancientfaith.com/orthodoxyandheterodoxy/tag/pentecostalism-2/

And then there's the well know (but not uncriticized) anti-Pentecostal book In Peace Let Us Pray to the Lord by Fr. Alexis Trader https://www.amazon.com/Peace-Let-Pray-Lord-Interpretation/dp/1928653065
« Last Edit: November 19, 2017, 05:06:26 AM by Volnutt »
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The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline walterturkey

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Re: ITT: Calvinism
« Reply #80 on: November 19, 2017, 01:54:33 PM »
im ethnically east asian and Calvinism is going be our big Christian tent. (although charismaticism and pentacostal are encroaching quickly).

the orthodox understanding of calvinism is lacking and it made my conversion a bit rocky. its hard to get an answer for "how does EO answer the calvinist perspective of the gospel?"  how does EO view predestination or justification >sanctification? its hard to get answers.

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Re: ITT: Calvinism
« Reply #81 on: November 19, 2017, 02:59:16 PM »
Why is it (I wonder) that you Orthodox, of whom I assume a high percentage live in the USA, focus so much on Calvinism?
That's easy. Calvinism is as American as apple pie.
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Re: ITT: Calvinism
« Reply #82 on: November 19, 2017, 03:47:28 PM »
That's easy. Calvinism is as American as apple pie.

I love apple pie!
"But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another." Galatians 5.15

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Re: ITT: Calvinism
« Reply #83 on: November 19, 2017, 09:19:11 PM »
im ethnically east asian and Calvinism is going be our big Christian tent. (although charismaticism and pentacostal are encroaching quickly).

the orthodox understanding of calvinism is lacking and it made my conversion a bit rocky. its hard to get an answer for "how does EO answer the calvinist perspective of the gospel?"  how does EO view predestination or justification >sanctification? its hard to get answers.

A lot of the Orthodox understanding of soteriology is encapsulated in St. John Cassian and St. Maximus the Confessor.

Some posts that helped me see some of the logic (cutting through the chaff in the same thread):

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,71851.msg1485409.html#msg1485409
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,71851.msg1485422.html#msg1485422
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,71851.msg1485756.html#msg1485756
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The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

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Re: ITT: Calvinism
« Reply #84 on: November 20, 2017, 10:25:34 AM »
That's easy. Calvinism is as American as apple pie.

I love apple pie!

But did you choose to love apple pie?

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Offline Volnutt

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Re: ITT: Calvinism
« Reply #85 on: November 20, 2017, 12:51:50 PM »
That's easy. Calvinism is as American as apple pie.

I love apple pie!

But did you choose to love apple pie?

#CheckmateFreeWill

Dadgumit. I just had to check, and though that's not an actual twitter hashtag, the phrase has shown up in several places online...
« Last Edit: November 20, 2017, 12:52:14 PM by Volnutt »
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The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline juliogb

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Re: ITT: Calvinism
« Reply #86 on: Today at 06:33:04 AM »
I find myself puzzled. Why is it (I wonder) that you Orthodox, of whom I assume a high percentage live in the USA, focus so much on Calvinism? There are other varieties of Protestantism - Arminians, Pentecostals - who seem to attract your ire a good deal less. Why is that? Here in Britain, Calvinism almost died out, preserved in England mainly only by a small section of Baptists. From the 1950s, Calvinism has enjoyed a strong resurgence over here: I am not familiar with the situation on the other side of the Atlantic. But whether Calvinism is currently the major theological fashion among Prots, or whether it remains proportionately minimal, I am still interested in why it is that 'brand' of Protestantism that you especially target. Please explain.

I think it is because calvinism is passing through a ressurgence in the last years, so it is a trending topic, here in Brazil calvinism is getting hyped as well, ironically, brazilian presbyterians today arent that calvinist and they are more of a liberal-but-no-so-much trend, the Tim Keller trend is also strong; calvinism is growing here among pentecostals of all people. There is the curious case of a protestant denomination here, that was founded initially by a canadian pentecostal missionary named Robert McCallister, they changed so much that now they have a episcopal government, a traditional liturgy for evangelical standards and calvinist doctrine.