Author Topic: Why Substitutionary Atonement Is Necessary for Evangelical Faith  (Read 1195 times)

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Offline beebert

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Re: Why Substitutionary Atonement Is Necessary for Evangelical Faith
« Reply #45 on: June 20, 2017, 04:13:43 AM »
PSA [penal substitutionary atonement], ... As far as I know, the most problematic part of this idea is the wrath of God as something that NEEDS to be appeased,

You are precisely right in identifying the wrath of God and his requirement for the satisfaction of his justice as the "problematic part" as perceived by so-called Protestants who have discarded the doctrine (often called "Liberal theologians"). It began to be perceived as a problem from about the 1830s onwards, to a large extent influenced by the Romantic movement, with such writers as Samuel Coleridge especially influential. The Victorians didn't begin by intellectually challenging the doctrine: they began by finding it distasteful to their sensitivities - "problematic" to them, and to others since, as you rightly identify. It was only after half a century or more of this sense of distaste that (on the ground of Higher Criticism) the Bible was no longer seen as inspired, and so need no longer be believed - except the bits they liked. By 1900 the Liberals had largely won the field, though there were always believers who remained loyal to the old doctrines. When the bankrupt vacuity of the "New Theology" became apparent, after two world wars, a resurgence of Evangelical theology began in the 1950s. And so the debate goes on. But the Liberals of the New Theology have not been able to disprove PSA from the words of Scripture. It is simply that they do not want a God like that! And so, because of where their sensitivities and desires lie, it is for them, as you rightly say, 'problematic'. Having set aside the authority of Scripture, they feel at liberty to create a god they like.

I am not saying that this is why Orthodox reject the doctrine. I am aware that the East has always emphasised the resurrection of Christ more than his death in the means of salvation. But in the West, certainly among the originally Protestant churches, I think you will find that my analysis is correct.
The resurrection is the salvation ;) Though without the cross, no resurrection. But yes, the resurrection is the salvific life and event. But no new life without death. Read Dostoevsky ;)

Offline beebert

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Re: Re: Why Substitutionary Atonement Is Necessary for Evangelical Faith
« Reply #46 on: June 20, 2017, 04:17:07 AM »
"Justice" comprises the qualities of imposing what's right and avenging what's wrong. Your question is essentially arguing nobody has done wrong, and if you say that, then you are only heaping guilt on guilt.

Quote
No, what I'm questioning is the idea that God's offense is infinite. That's just not true. God is not incapable of showing mercy merely due to the fact that he's offended. That's what makes Anselm's theory defunct.

Maybe I am wrong, but I thought that Anselm focussed on offending God's honour, not his justice.
Well. Anseom humanizes God. Just as Calvin after him. Though Anselm is even more ridiculous. He makes God sound like a narcissist.

Offline David Young

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Re: Why Substitutionary Atonement Is Necessary for Evangelical Faith
« Reply #47 on: June 20, 2017, 06:14:09 AM »
Justice and mercy aren't seperated as two completely different things. They dont contradict eachother

One requires that the wages of sin is death; the other does not delight in the death of the sinner, but rather that he turn and live. "The soul that sinneth, it shall die." "I am come that men may have life." Calvary was God's way of reconciling these two principles.
"But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another." Galatians 5.15

Offline David Young

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Re: Re: Why Substitutionary Atonement Is Necessary for Evangelical Faith
« Reply #48 on: June 20, 2017, 06:17:04 AM »
How can God be offended?

He calls us to worship him; we say he doesn't exist, or we ignore him, or we invent a new god more to our liking. He calls us to be pure; we pollute ourselves with impurities. He requires us to be kind and merciful to our fellows who bear his image; we act in ways that are self-seeking, callous and destructive. He gives us a wonderful earth to enjoy; we ruin it for greed and self-aggrandizement. I need not go on.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2017, 06:17:47 AM by David Young »
"But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another." Galatians 5.15

Offline David Young

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Re: Re: Why Substitutionary Atonement Is Necessary for Evangelical Faith
« Reply #49 on: June 20, 2017, 06:21:53 AM »
Anselm humanizes God. Just as Calvin after him.

Without arguing either for Anselm or Calvin, I should point out that Jesus also 'humanises' God, as do the Old Testament prophets. It is part of God's way of helping us understand his relations with us; he condescends to accommodate his ways to the level of our understanding. The very use of the word Father is a supreme example of this gracious accommodation.
"But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another." Galatians 5.15

Offline beebert

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Re: Why Substitutionary Atonement Is Necessary for Evangelical Faith
« Reply #50 on: June 20, 2017, 06:26:20 AM »
Justice and mercy aren't seperated as two completely different things. They dont contradict eachother

One requires that the wages of sin is death; the other does not delight in the death of the sinner, but rather that he turn and live. "The soul that sinneth, it shall die." "I am come that men may have life." Calvary was God's way of reconciling these two principles.
Yes but the natural consequences of sin is death. The hebrew Word which is translated in to justice has very much to do with love, and very Little to do with some sort of "process of trial kindof justice"

Offline beebert

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Re: Re: Why Substitutionary Atonement Is Necessary for Evangelical Faith
« Reply #51 on: June 20, 2017, 06:28:23 AM »
How can God be offended?

He calls us to worship him; we say he doesn't exist, or we ignore him, or we invent a new god more to our liking. He calls us to be pure; we pollute ourselves with impurities. He requires us to be kind and merciful to our fellows who bear his image; we act in ways that are self-seeking, callous and destructive. He gives us a wonderful earth to enjoy; we ruin it for greed and self-aggrandizement. I need not go on.
sure I agree. So then it depends in what one means by offending God. Because in human terms, someone who is offended also lacks something in terms of perfection. Which I guess we both agree God doesn't.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2017, 06:29:00 AM by beebert »

Offline beebert

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Re: Re: Why Substitutionary Atonement Is Necessary for Evangelical Faith
« Reply #52 on: June 20, 2017, 06:34:17 AM »
Anselm humanizes God. Just as Calvin after him.

Without arguing either for Anselm or Calvin, I should point out that Jesus also 'humanises' God, as do the Old Testament prophets. It is part of God's way of helping us understand his relations with us; he condescends to accommodate his ways to the level of our understanding. The very use of the word Father is a supreme example of this gracious accommodation.
Different types of humanizing. Calvin and Anselm tried to rationalize God in ways which in most cases leads to superstition. Jesus makes the claim that he WAS God. Hence no real need to objectify like some sort of "big other" any longer. Jesus adapted himself to the language and knowledge of those he spoke to. God Always adapts himself after the knowledge and imagination of those he revealed himself to. That is obvious. Which is also why all this talk about PSA is meaningless if it is used in order to actually explain God from the Point of view of God. We can imagine our relation to him in those terms, that doesnt mean it is true or the whole truth from God's view that PSA is it. It is nothing but Language game. He who believes in Christ, is loving, kind, merciful and just ... He knows God.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2017, 06:39:22 AM by beebert »

Offline beebert

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Re: Why Substitutionary Atonement Is Necessary for Evangelical Faith
« Reply #53 on: June 20, 2017, 07:16:51 AM »
Another way of seing the cross is that God is eternally a suffering God in relation to man, constantly crucified. Though proves by the resurrection that suffering is redemptive. Why do the righteous suffer? That was the ancient Jewish question. And the answer is Perhaps that God doesn't have power over it. He doesnt inflict suffering. He suffers himself. Because this world isnt ruled by justice. The conventional answer in ancient Israel was that God rewards virtue and punishes sin. The Book of Job for example suggests that those who claim that to be the Case are wrong. And very much so.

Offline David Young

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Re: Why Substitutionary Atonement Is Necessary for Evangelical Faith
« Reply #54 on: June 20, 2017, 11:30:39 AM »
...God rewards virtue and punishes sin. The Book of Job for example suggests that those who claim that to be the Case are wrong. And very much so.

I would add one word to what you write:

God rewards virtue and punishes sin. The Book of Job for example suggests that those who claim that to be ALWAYS the Case are wrong. And very much so.

And of course eternal life in Christ is not a reward of virtue, but a gift of grace. But Christians - who have already received the gift of eternal life - are promised in addition rewards for faithful service.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2017, 11:32:46 AM by David Young »
"But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another." Galatians 5.15

Offline beebert

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Re: Why Substitutionary Atonement Is Necessary for Evangelical Faith
« Reply #55 on: June 20, 2017, 11:32:49 AM »
...God rewards virtue and punishes sin. The Book of Job for example suggests that those who claim that to be the Case are wrong. And very much so.

I would add one word to what you write:

God rewards virtue and punishes sin. The Book of Job for example suggests that those who claim that to be ALWAYS the Case are wrong. And very much so.
Yes. I think that is what I meant but maybe it didnt come out so well.

Christians are promised spiritual rewards. God is a reward. Love is a reward. Etc.

Christ is above dogma, logic and even morality.

One of The greatest reward for man is to be able to say:

"I must Create a System, or be enslav'd by another Man's. I will not Reason & Compare; my business is to Create."
« Last Edit: June 20, 2017, 11:39:05 AM by beebert »

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Re: Why Substitutionary Atonement Is Necessary for Evangelical Faith
« Reply #56 on: June 20, 2017, 02:18:00 PM »
The hebrew Word which is translated in to justice has very much to do with love, and very Little to do with some sort of "process of trial kindof justice"

How did you come up with this?

"I must Create a System, or be enslav'd by another Man's. I will not Reason & Compare; my business is to Create."

Back to quoting your "fathers" again, I see.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline beebert

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Re: Why Substitutionary Atonement Is Necessary for Evangelical Faith
« Reply #57 on: June 20, 2017, 03:36:29 PM »
The hebrew Word which is translated in to justice has very much to do with love, and very Little to do with some sort of "process of trial kindof justice"

How did you come up with this?

"I must Create a System, or be enslav'd by another Man's. I will not Reason & Compare; my business is to Create."

Back to quoting your "fathers" again, I see.
William Blake yes! A great controbution to mankind!

Because it is true. But perhaps You prefer slavery of thought and incapability of creating thing. Like most of mankind.

The Word justice in hebrew has the underlying meaning of basically having LOVING care for the weak and vulnerable
« Last Edit: June 20, 2017, 03:40:59 PM by beebert »

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Re: Why Substitutionary Atonement Is Necessary for Evangelical Faith
« Reply #58 on: June 20, 2017, 03:48:46 PM »
The hebrew Word which is translated in to justice has very much to do with love, and very Little to do with some sort of "process of trial kindof justice"

How did you come up with this?

"I must Create a System, or be enslav'd by another Man's. I will not Reason & Compare; my business is to Create."

Back to quoting your "fathers" again, I see.
William Blake yes! A great controbution to mankind!

Because it is true. But perhaps You prefer slavery of thought and incapability of creating thing. Like most of mankind.

The Word justice in hebrew has the underlying meaning of basically having LOVING care for the weak and vulnerable

As much as I love Blake, the principle you have highlighted here is the basis of a deadly instability and will lead you astray. Being rooted in tradition is not a hamper to creativity, as can be seen by numerous orthodox artists.
Quote
But it had not been in Tess's power - nor is it in anybody's power - to feel the whole truth of golden opinions while it is possible to profit by them. She - and how many more - might have ironically said to God with Saint Augustine, "Thou hast counselled a better course than thou hast permitted."
Thomas Hardy, Tess of the D'Urbervilles

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Why Substitutionary Atonement Is Necessary for Evangelical Faith
« Reply #59 on: June 20, 2017, 04:01:14 PM »
The hebrew Word which is translated in to justice has very much to do with love, and very Little to do with some sort of "process of trial kindof justice"

How did you come up with this?

The Word justice in hebrew has the underlying meaning of basically having LOVING care for the weak and vulnerable

How did you come up with this?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline beebert

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Re: Why Substitutionary Atonement Is Necessary for Evangelical Faith
« Reply #60 on: June 20, 2017, 04:06:59 PM »
The hebrew Word which is translated in to justice has very much to do with love, and very Little to do with some sort of "process of trial kindof justice"

How did you come up with this?

"I must Create a System, or be enslav'd by another Man's. I will not Reason & Compare; my business is to Create."

Back to quoting your "fathers" again, I see.
William Blake yes! A great controbution to mankind!

Because it is true. But perhaps You prefer slavery of thought and incapability of creating thing. Like most of mankind.

The Word justice in hebrew has the underlying meaning of basically having LOVING care for the weak and vulnerable

As much as I love Blake, the principle you have highlighted here is the basis of a deadly instability and will lead you astray. Being rooted in tradition is not a hamper to creativity, as can be seen by numerous orthodox artists.
Who Said anything about tradition? I never rejected tradition. Though I reject traditionalists who reject creative artists on the basis of What they believe is to be faithful to "tradition".

It is hard for me to understand how anyone can call Blake a satanist, who wrote one of the lovliest poems about children ever, showing his Love for them:

 Sleep, sleep, beauty bright,
Dreaming in the joys of night;
Sleep, sleep; in thy sleep
Little sorrows sit and weep.

Sweet babe, in thy face
Soft desires I can trace,
Secret joys and secret smiles,
Little pretty infant wiles.

As thy softest limbs I feel
Smiles as of the morning steal
O'er thy cheek, and o'er thy breast
Where thy little heart doth rest.

Compare this to the Love of children expressed by the praised church father who Said that all unbaptized infants who die goes to hell.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2017, 04:10:29 PM by beebert »

Offline beebert

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Re: Why Substitutionary Atonement Is Necessary for Evangelical Faith
« Reply #61 on: June 20, 2017, 04:09:33 PM »
The hebrew Word which is translated in to justice has very much to do with love, and very Little to do with some sort of "process of trial kindof justice"

How did you come up with this?

The Word justice in hebrew has the underlying meaning of basically having LOVING care for the weak and vulnerable

How did you come up with this?
"The word dikaiosune, 'justice,' is a translation of the Hebraic word tsedaka. This word :means 'the divine energy which accomplishes man’s salvation.' It is parallel and almost :synonymous to the other Hebraic word, hesed, which means 'mercy,' 'compassion,' 'love,' :and to the word emeth which means 'fidelity,' 'truth.' This gives a completely other :dimension to what we usually conceive as justice. This is how the Church understood God’s :justice. This is what the Fathers of the Church taught of it - God is not :just, with the human meaning of this word, but we see that His justice means His goodness and :love, which are given in an unjust manner, that is, God always gives without taking anything :in return, and He gives to persons like us who are not worthy of receiving."

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Re: Why Substitutionary Atonement Is Necessary for Evangelical Faith
« Reply #62 on: June 20, 2017, 04:27:01 PM »
in post 60, I believe you are referring to St Augustine who is said to have claimed unbaptized infNts go to hell. I do not think he said something so extreme,; I believe he said that they are not in the heavenly kingdom but in a state that developed into the limbo concept.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2017, 04:28:54 PM by recent convert »
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Re: Why Substitutionary Atonement Is Necessary for Evangelical Faith
« Reply #63 on: June 20, 2017, 04:55:51 PM »
The hebrew Word which is translated in to justice has very much to do with love, and very Little to do with some sort of "process of trial kindof justice"

How did you come up with this?

The Word justice in hebrew has the underlying meaning of basically having LOVING care for the weak and vulnerable

How did you come up with this?
"The word dikaiosune, 'justice,' is a translation of the Hebraic word tsedaka. This word :means 'the divine energy which accomplishes man’s salvation.' It is parallel and almost :synonymous to the other Hebraic word, hesed, which means 'mercy,' 'compassion,' 'love,' :and to the word emeth which means 'fidelity,' 'truth.' This gives a completely other :dimension to what we usually conceive as justice. This is how the Church understood God’s :justice. This is what the Fathers of the Church taught of it - God is not :just, with the human meaning of this word, but we see that His justice means His goodness and :love, which are given in an unjust manner, that is, God always gives without taking anything :in return, and He gives to persons like us who are not worthy of receiving."

Thank you for the quote; where did you get it? It's very fanciful. I won't take it apart piece by piece, but suffice it to say asserting three different words are "synonyms" but then furnishing each with its own very different definition is risible.

The Greek language existed as something apart from Hebrew, you should know. 'Díke,' "justice" mostly implied equality under the law if we make a survey the ancient court records and legal philosophy and that sort of thing. Indeed, etymologically it may have had a pre-legal use to mean "fair," altho it passed thru a period of meaning "customary under our law." It was considered the most important Hellenic quality at an early period, and its importance continued to grow. Just before Antiquity, 'díke' had become not only the important attribute of the Most High God's but in some theogonies the Most High God himself. 'Díkaios,' the adjective, came to describe someone as upright, righteous, an honest ruler or a useful citizen. 'Dikaiosýne' was naturally a later word, as a derivation, and meant good government.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Ainnir

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Re: Why Substitutionary Atonement Is Necessary for Evangelical Faith
« Reply #64 on: June 20, 2017, 05:04:24 PM »
Thank you for the quote; where did you get it? It's very fanciful. I won't take it apart piece by piece, but suffice it to say asserting three different words are "synonyms" but then furnishing each with its own very different definition is risible.

https://orthodoxwiki.org/Justification

Although beebert, you really should link your sources.

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Re: Why Substitutionary Atonement Is Necessary for Evangelical Faith
« Reply #65 on: June 20, 2017, 05:33:17 PM »
in post 60, I believe you are referring to St Augustine who is said to have claimed unbaptized infNts go to hell. I do not think he said something so extreme,; I believe he said that they are not in the heavenly kingdom but in a state that developed into the limbo concept.
Nope. That view was developed later by catholics because they started to see how sick the view of Augustine was.

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Re: Why Substitutionary Atonement Is Necessary for Evangelical Faith
« Reply #66 on: June 20, 2017, 05:35:34 PM »
Thank you for the quote; where did you get it? It's very fanciful. I won't take it apart piece by piece, but suffice it to say asserting three different words are "synonyms" but then furnishing each with its own very different definition is risible.

https://orthodoxwiki.org/Justification

Although beebert, you really should link your sources.
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Re: Why Substitutionary Atonement Is Necessary for Evangelical Faith
« Reply #67 on: Yesterday at 01:05:50 PM »
Thank you for the quote; where did you get it? It's very fanciful. I won't take it apart piece by piece, but suffice it to say asserting three different words are "synonyms" but then furnishing each with its own very different definition is risible.

https://orthodoxwiki.org/Justification

Although beebert, you really should link your sources.
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Re: Why Substitutionary Atonement Is Necessary for Evangelical Faith
« Reply #68 on: Yesterday at 07:16:17 PM »
in post 60, I believe you are referring to St Augustine who is said to have claimed unbaptized infNts go to hell. I do not think he said something so extreme,; I believe he said that they are not in the heavenly kingdom but in a state that developed into the limbo concept.
Nope. That view was developed later by catholics because they started to see how sick the view of Augustine was.

Which does nothing to explain why he's still a saint to them.
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Re: Why Substitutionary Atonement Is Necessary for Evangelical Faith
« Reply #69 on: Yesterday at 07:20:24 PM »
To be fair, what Augustine argued is that "the mildest of condemnations" was reserved for the infants of pagans. Even taken out of context (the context was a polemic against the heresy that man can be saved without the mediation of Christ, if he is a good enough man), this is not as horrific as it is vague, so imagining a scenario in which Catholic doctors of the Middle Ages were "sickened" by the teaching and invented Limbo seems quite unnecessary.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Why Substitutionary Atonement Is Necessary for Evangelical Faith
« Reply #70 on: Yesterday at 10:12:22 PM »
in post 60, I believe you are referring to St Augustine who is said to have claimed unbaptized infNts go to hell. I do not think he said something so extreme,; I believe he said that they are not in the heavenly kingdom but in a state that developed into the limbo concept.
Nope. That view was developed later by catholics because they started to see how sick the view of Augustine was.

Which does nothing to explain why he's still a saint to them.
He's a saint to us too.
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Re: Why Substitutionary Atonement Is Necessary for Evangelical Faith
« Reply #71 on: Yesterday at 10:23:53 PM »
in post 60, I believe you are referring to St Augustine who is said to have claimed unbaptized infNts go to hell. I do not think he said something so extreme,; I believe he said that they are not in the heavenly kingdom but in a state that developed into the limbo concept.
Nope. That view was developed later by catholics because they started to see how sick the view of Augustine was.

Which does nothing to explain why he's still a saint to them.
He's a saint to us too.

Not according to some on this board.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Why Substitutionary Atonement Is Necessary for Evangelical Faith
« Reply #72 on: Yesterday at 10:26:33 PM »
In my jurisdiction, he was commemorated last week.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline beebert

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To be fair, what Augustine argued is that "the mildest of condemnations" was reserved for the infants of pagans. Even taken out of context (the context was a polemic against the heresy that man can be saved without the mediation of Christ, if he is a good enough man), this is not as horrific as it is vague, so imagining a scenario in which Catholic doctors of the Middle Ages were "sickened" by the teaching and invented Limbo seems quite unnecessary.
I still find even the idea of Infant damnation repulsive. To come up with it is insane and shows what too much obsession with dogmas and systems of thought (original guilt in his case) can do to you. Augustine wrote higly of love many things, he is a complex figure. His Confessions is one of the greatest Books I have ever read. I am torn when it comes to him. Imagine the suffering of many mothers for a long time when their Babies died. Wow. It is just so cruel it cant even be explained with Words. It is an idea which would make God där worse than Hitler and Stalin put together of it WAS true. Now the relief is that it is false. And it is proven by Christ's attitude towards Children in the gospels. They belong to the kingdom. One of the reasons the great Simone Weil refused to be baptized was because of the belief among many catholics that infants who die are damned.

Offline beebert

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in post 60, I believe you are referring to St Augustine who is said to have claimed unbaptized infNts go to hell. I do not think he said something so extreme,; I believe he said that they are not in the heavenly kingdom but in a state that developed into the limbo concept.
Nope. That view was developed later by catholics because they started to see how sick the view of Augustine was.

Which does nothing to explain why he's still a saint to them.
He's a saint to us too.

Not according to some on this board.
I consider him a saint. But hey. Origen is a saint according to me as well.

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Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

Once Christ has filled the Cross, it can never be empty again.

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Offline beebert

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« Last Edit: Today at 06:26:15 AM by beebert »

Online Justin Kolodziej

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Quote
The Resolutions Committee of the Southern Baptist Convention has just published the resolution that Malcolm Yarnell and I coauthored (explained here). It is listed below. Later today Southern Baptist messengers will hear the resolution on the convention floor. I am thankful to the committee for their consideration and deliberation.

It is my hope, with Malcolm, that the messengers will formally embrace this resolution as our conventional belief. Without penal substitutionary atonement, there is no satisfaction of the Father’s just wrath against sinners. Without the satisfaction of divine wrath, there is no forgiveness for sin. Without forgiveness for sin, there is no gospel. Penal substitution is not a percentage of the cross-work of Christ; the cross-work of Christ is at its core atonement for sin. That the atonement is a many-splendored achievement does not diminish this reality.

The stakes are very high, as this resolution makes clear. May God use this for his glory and the church’s good.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/thoughtlife/2017/06/substitutionary-atonement-necessary-evangelical-faith/
According to that, Baptists ought to worship on Fridays, not Sundays.
Abbâ Anthony received a revelation in the desert, saying, “In such and such a city there is a man who resembleth thee; he is a physician, and he worketh and giveth whatsoever he earneth to the poor and needy, and each day he, with the angels, ascribeth holiness to God three times a day.”

May the Lord help me to become even a little bit like that guy.

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in post 60, I believe you are referring to St Augustine who is said to have claimed unbaptized infNts go to hell. I do not think he said something so extreme,; I believe he said that they are not in the heavenly kingdom but in a state that developed into the limbo concept.
Nope. That view was developed later by catholics because they started to see how sick the view of Augustine was.

Which does nothing to explain why he's still a saint to them.
He's a saint to us too.

Not according to some on this board.

OC.net English majors > Fifth ecumenical council?
Quote
But it had not been in Tess's power - nor is it in anybody's power - to feel the whole truth of golden opinions while it is possible to profit by them. She - and how many more - might have ironically said to God with Saint Augustine, "Thou hast counselled a better course than thou hast permitted."
Thomas Hardy, Tess of the D'Urbervilles

Offline hecma925

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Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

Once Christ has filled the Cross, it can never be empty again.

"But God doesn't need your cookies!  Arrive on time!"

Offline biro

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in post 60, I believe you are referring to St Augustine who is said to have claimed unbaptized infNts go to hell. I do not think he said something so extreme,; I believe he said that they are not in the heavenly kingdom but in a state that developed into the limbo concept.
Nope. That view was developed later by catholics because they started to see how sick the view of Augustine was.

Which does nothing to explain why he's still a saint to them.
He's a saint to us too.

Not according to some on this board.

OC.net English majors > Fifth ecumenical council?

I didn't say he wasn't a saint. I think he is.

I said some people here have claimed he wasn't.

There are threads full of that old argument, if you care to go back to them. I don't.
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Offline beebert

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Read Dostoevsky ;)

Why?
Because he is awesome! :)

God is awesome.  Try again.
What you said is perfectly shown in Dostoevsly. What you Said is something some May realize when Reading Dostoevsky! It doesnt hurt to read other things too than the bible :)
« Last Edit: Today at 11:52:50 AM by beebert »

Offline Porter ODoran

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Read Dostoevsky ;)

Why?
Because he is awesome! :)

God is awesome.  Try again.
What you said is perfectly shown in Dostoevsly. What you Said is something some May realize when Reading Dostoevsky! It doesnt hurt to read other things too than the bible :)

If your posts are any example, it might.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Quote
The Resolutions Committee of the Southern Baptist Convention has just published the resolution that Malcolm Yarnell and I coauthored (explained here). It is listed below. Later today Southern Baptist messengers will hear the resolution on the convention floor. I am thankful to the committee for their consideration and deliberation.

It is my hope, with Malcolm, that the messengers will formally embrace this resolution as our conventional belief. Without penal substitutionary atonement, there is no satisfaction of the Father’s just wrath against sinners. Without the satisfaction of divine wrath, there is no forgiveness for sin. Without forgiveness for sin, there is no gospel. Penal substitution is not a percentage of the cross-work of Christ; the cross-work of Christ is at its core atonement for sin. That the atonement is a many-splendored achievement does not diminish this reality.

The stakes are very high, as this resolution makes clear. May God use this for his glory and the church’s good.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/thoughtlife/2017/06/substitutionary-atonement-necessary-evangelical-faith/
According to that, Baptists ought to worship on Fridays, not Sundays.

Excellent observation! Deep.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline juliogb

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According to that, Baptists ought to worship on Fridays, not Sundays.

Makes a lot of sense, in PSA doctrine, the Ressurrection appears to be a tiny detail.



Offline Iconodule

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For a few decades some Russian theologians, most famously Metropolitan Anthony Khrapovitsky, overreacted to PSA and posited the Agony in the Garden as the central point of our salvation.
Quote
But it had not been in Tess's power - nor is it in anybody's power - to feel the whole truth of golden opinions while it is possible to profit by them. She - and how many more - might have ironically said to God with Saint Augustine, "Thou hast counselled a better course than thou hast permitted."
Thomas Hardy, Tess of the D'Urbervilles