Author Topic: The Chambesy Documents: Orthodox and Ecumenical Relations  (Read 370 times)

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Offline scamandrius

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The Chambesy Documents: Orthodox and Ecumenical Relations
« on: February 04, 2016, 11:50:03 PM »
I would like to start a discussion on this particular document that I am splitting off from another thread.

Relations of the Orthodox Church with the Rest of the Christian World
https://mospat.ru/en/2016/01/28/news127362/

I find nothing objectionable as far as how this document regards the Orthodox Church, but I wonder if the document really understands what the World Council of Churches (WCC) is all about.  The document talks about how the Orthodox participates in the WCC because the respective members all uphold and believe the Nicene Creed and its tenants, but I wonder if it that is really the case.  COnsidering that the vast majority of the WCC are Protestants, many of whom have abandoned the traditions of their forebears in rejecting basic tenants of small-o orthodox Christianity, I have to wonder why the hierarchs are still insistent in participation with this heterodox body even though, as the document states, that the Orthodox participation in dialogue with the WCC does not in any way deny the Orthodox Church's understanding of herself as the Una Sancta.  So, let us discuss.

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Re: The Chambesy Documents: Orthodox and Ecumenical Relations
« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2016, 07:40:16 AM »
You believe the Orthodox leaders that have been participating in the WCC even before its beginning do not understand what the WCC is about. Makes sense.
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Re: The Chambesy Documents: Orthodox and Ecumenical Relations
« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2016, 07:13:43 PM »
Quote
COnsidering that the vast majority of the WCC are Protestants, many of whom have abandoned the traditions of their forebears in rejecting basic tenants of small-o orthodox Christianity,

What and who are you talking about specifically?
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Offline scamandrius

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Re: The Chambesy Documents: Orthodox and Ecumenical Relations
« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2016, 11:55:27 PM »
Quote
COnsidering that the vast majority of the WCC are Protestants, many of whom have abandoned the traditions of their forebears in rejecting basic tenants of small-o orthodox Christianity,

What and who are you talking about specifically?

This is from section 19 which I quote in full:

The Orthodox member Churches of the WCC consider sine qua non for their participation in the WCC the key article of its Constitution which states that only those Churches and confessions that acknowledge Jesus Christ as God and Savior, according to the Scriptures, and believe in God glorified in the Trinity, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, according to the Nicean-Constantinopolitan Creed, may become WCC members. It is their firm conviction that the ecclesiological presuppositions of the 1950 Toronto Statement on the Church, the Churches and the World Council of Churches, are of paramount importance for Orthodox participation in the Council. It is therefore clear that the WCC is not and by no means can be a “super-Church.” “The purpose of the World Council of Churches is not to negotiate unions between Churches, which can only be done by the Churches themselves acting on their own initiative, but to bring the Churches into living contact with each other and to promote the study and discussion of the issues of Church unity” (Toronto Statement, § 2).

I would argue that a number of the current members of the WCC, whether whole churches or a sizeable majority or minority of a church's adherents, do not hold  currently believe any or all of the following:   Jesus Christ is God and Saviour according to the Scriptures and believe in God glorified in Trinity, the Father, ....  My point is that if the Orthodox are going to participate in the WCC, the Orthodox should insist that the WCC clean house of any confessions that currently hold on to beliefs or doctrines contrary to the criteria listed above.

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Re: The Chambesy Documents: Orthodox and Ecumenical Relations
« Reply #4 on: Yesterday at 12:23:32 AM »
There's a few wacky Episcopalians like Spong and Borg who are heretics under the Nicene Creed, yeah, but their denominations as a whole still seem to hold to it. You want the Orthodox Churches to condition their participation on the excommunication of a handful of individuals? That seems unrealistically rigid.
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Offline scamandrius

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Re: The Chambesy Documents: Orthodox and Ecumenical Relations
« Reply #5 on: Yesterday at 12:40:38 AM »
There's a few wacky Episcopalians like Spong and Borg who are heretics under the Nicene Creed, yeah, but their denominations as a whole still seem to hold to it. You want the Orthodox Churches to condition their participation on the excommunication of a handful of individuals? That seems unrealistically rigid.

Who would excommunicate whom? My point (again) is that if the individual members of the WCC are not holding the doctrines which are contingent on membership (as stated in the section I quoted), then why should the Orthodox continue its association with such a group and use that as a front for "dialogue?"

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Re: The Chambesy Documents: Orthodox and Ecumenical Relations
« Reply #6 on: Yesterday at 01:05:16 AM »
There's a few wacky Episcopalians like Spong and Borg who are heretics under the Nicene Creed, yeah, but their denominations as a whole still seem to hold to it. You want the Orthodox Churches to condition their participation on the excommunication of a handful of individuals? That seems unrealistically rigid.

Who would excommunicate whom? My point (again) is that if the individual members of the WCC are not holding the doctrines which are contingent on membership (as stated in the section I quoted), then why should the Orthodox continue its association with such a group and use that as a front for "dialogue?"

Ok, so now we're talking about entire churches. Above you made it sound to me like you only meant factions within churches. So being more specific, which of the 345 member churches of the WCC do you see as denying the Nicene Creed?

I'm sure they'd love to know about this terrible oversight https://www.oikoumene.org/en/contact-wcc/contact-wcc
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 01:06:19 AM by Volnutt »
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Re: The Chambesy Documents: Orthodox and Ecumenical Relations
« Reply #7 on: Yesterday at 01:30:47 AM »
There's a few wacky Episcopalians like Spong and Borg who are heretics under the Nicene Creed, yeah, but their denominations as a whole still seem to hold to it. You want the Orthodox Churches to condition their participation on the excommunication of a handful of individuals? That seems unrealistically rigid.

Who would excommunicate whom? My point (again) is that if the individual members of the WCC are not holding the doctrines which are contingent on membership (as stated in the section I quoted), then why should the Orthodox continue its association with such a group and use that as a front for "dialogue?"

Ok, so now we're talking about entire churches. Above you made it sound to me like you only meant factions within churches. So being more specific, which of the 345 member churches of the WCC do you see as denying the Nicene Creed?

I'm sure they'd love to know about this terrible oversight https://www.oikoumene.org/en/contact-wcc/contact-wcc

YOu really think Pentecostals affirm the entirety of the Nicene Creed? 

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Re: The Chambesy Documents: Orthodox and Ecumenical Relations
« Reply #8 on: Yesterday at 01:36:36 AM »
Why would we stop dialogue with any group of Christians, heretics or not?
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Re: The Chambesy Documents: Orthodox and Ecumenical Relations
« Reply #9 on: Yesterday at 02:03:02 AM »
There's a few wacky Episcopalians like Spong and Borg who are heretics under the Nicene Creed, yeah, but their denominations as a whole still seem to hold to it. You want the Orthodox Churches to condition their participation on the excommunication of a handful of individuals? That seems unrealistically rigid.

Who would excommunicate whom? My point (again) is that if the individual members of the WCC are not holding the doctrines which are contingent on membership (as stated in the section I quoted), then why should the Orthodox continue its association with such a group and use that as a front for "dialogue?"

Ok, so now we're talking about entire churches. Above you made it sound to me like you only meant factions within churches. So being more specific, which of the 345 member churches of the WCC do you see as denying the Nicene Creed?

I'm sure they'd love to know about this terrible oversight https://www.oikoumene.org/en/contact-wcc/contact-wcc

YOu really think Pentecostals affirm the entirety of the Nicene Creed?

The United Pentecostals are the only ones who are modalists, if that's what you mean. There are no United groups in the WCC.
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 02:03:22 AM by Volnutt »
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Offline Minnesotan

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Re: The Chambesy Documents: Orthodox and Ecumenical Relations
« Reply #10 on: Yesterday at 02:29:06 AM »
At least the WCC have not allowed the Community of Christ (which is basically diet Mormonism, and was formerly known as the RLDS) to join. The NCC, however, have.

On the other hand, RLDS, much like HOOM and the Armstrongites of yesteryear, do seem to be in the process of moving away from their origins, though that process is far from complete, and it's unclear where their theology is heading, although they're becoming less and less Mormon. They're in a state of flux right now.
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Re: The Chambesy Documents: Orthodox and Ecumenical Relations
« Reply #11 on: Yesterday at 11:22:24 AM »
According to
http://minaloto.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=338%3Abetween-faith-and-compromise&catid=25%3Abooks-and-collections&Itemid=37

the book indicates that the WCC was simply a 'bishop' in the chess game of real politics on a world stage of liberation theology, marxist movements, etc.
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Re: The Chambesy Documents: Orthodox and Ecumenical Relations
« Reply #12 on: Yesterday at 05:55:49 PM »
Honestly, I'd rather see the bishops be puppets of One World Government Marxism (not that I believe this tinfoil hat crap) than of warmongering Russian (or American) tyrants and megacorps. At least the Marxists say that they give a damn about the poor.

In this world you have to pick your poison.
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Re: The Chambesy Documents: Orthodox and Ecumenical Relations
« Reply #13 on: Yesterday at 06:53:30 PM »
Why would we stop dialogue with any group of Christians, heretics or not?

What has that gained the Orthodox except vituperation and derision and opprobrium because we're not following the progressive Christianity playbook?

I don't oppose dialogue, but that's not what is going on.

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Re: The Chambesy Documents: Orthodox and Ecumenical Relations
« Reply #14 on: Yesterday at 07:32:08 PM »
Why would we stop dialogue with any group of Christians, heretics or not?

What has that gained the Orthodox except vituperation and derision and opprobrium because we're not following the progressive Christianity playbook?

I don't oppose dialogue, but that's not what is going on.

Not to mention needlessly antagonizing some and driving them further into schism.
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Offline christiane777

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Re: The Chambesy Documents: Orthodox and Ecumenical Relations
« Reply #15 on: Yesterday at 07:41:21 PM »
I would like to start a discussion on this particular document that I am splitting off from another thread.

Relations of the Orthodox Church with the Rest of the Christian World
https://mospat.ru/en/2016/01/28/news127362/

I find nothing objectionable as far as how this document regards the Orthodox Church, but I wonder if the document really understands what the World Council of Churches (WCC) is all about.  The document talks about how the Orthodox participates in the WCC because the respective members all uphold and believe the Nicene Creed and its tenants, but I wonder if it that is really the case.  COnsidering that the vast majority of the WCC are Protestants, many of whom have abandoned the traditions of their forebears in rejecting basic tenants of small-o orthodox Christianity, I have to wonder why the hierarchs are still insistent in participation with this heterodox body even though, as the document states, that the Orthodox participation in dialogue with the WCC does not in any way deny the Orthodox Church's understanding of herself as the Una Sancta.  So, let us discuss.

Yes, sorry to say, I think you are nitpicking a bit.  From what I see here (and I have now read this document a few times), the Orthodox Church is completely standing its ground.  They are very clear that their participation is solely dialogue toward the higher purpose of Christian unity; the one true Church is the Orthodox Church.  I don't see where the line is being smudged or that any 'heterodoxy' from other groups will threaten or taint the Orthodox sitting in the WCC dialogue.  And I don't see the value of combing through the various participants - checking their ID for heterodoxy.   ;)

At some point we have to get our heads around the concept that, though in error, there are other Christian communities in the world.  There has to be some mutual recognition of the shared Christian identity, heritage, history - we are bound together as much as we are apart by these things - a bit of a paradox.  (not a royal 'we' here; my point is that there are individuals in all Christian denominations who have this kind of suspicion and discomfort about ecumenism; I don't think belonging to these kinds of groups is a bad or dangerous thing)

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Re: The Chambesy Documents: Orthodox and Ecumenical Relations
« Reply #16 on: Yesterday at 08:34:45 PM »
The problem is that when you insist that the one true Church is the Orthodox Church, then it seems like "unity" just becomes a euphemism for "everybody else converting to Orthodoxy." Dialog is by necessity a game of compromise on all sides and, beyond accommodations as to form like with the WRO, it's unclear how much, if at all, the Orthodox Church can really "compromise" in doctrine while still retaining this emphasis on Orthodoxy having been right all along.

I'm not anti-ecumenism, but I can understand why the Old Calendarists have their suspicions.
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Re: The Chambesy Documents: Orthodox and Ecumenical Relations
« Reply #17 on: Yesterday at 08:55:39 PM »
The problem is that when you insist that the one true Church is the Orthodox Church, then it seems like "unity" just becomes a euphemism for "everybody else converting to Orthodoxy."

Huh.  Imagine that!

Quote
Dialog is by necessity a game of compromise on all sides and, beyond accommodations as to form like with the WRO, it's unclear how much, if at all, the Orthodox Church can really "compromise" in doctrine while still retaining this emphasis on Orthodoxy having been right all along.

I'm not anti-ecumenism, but I can understand why the Old Calendarists have their suspicions.

Dialogue is not a game of compromise on all sides by necessity.
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Offline christiane777

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Re: The Chambesy Documents: Orthodox and Ecumenical Relations
« Reply #18 on: Yesterday at 09:28:17 PM »
The problem is that when you insist that the one true Church is the Orthodox Church, then it seems like "unity" just becomes a euphemism for "everybody else converting to Orthodoxy." Dialog is by necessity a game of compromise on all sides and, beyond accommodations as to form like with the WRO, it's unclear how much, if at all, the Orthodox Church can really "compromise" in doctrine while still retaining this emphasis on Orthodoxy having been right all along.

I'm not anti-ecumenism, but I can understand why the Old Calendarists have their suspicions.

I think it is possible to have a meeting of minds short of unity.  The goal should not be unity; it should be finding common ground - practical issues that we can stand together on, such as helping the poor, oppressed, resisting terrorism, threats to religious liberty, protecting the vulnerable in our society, the family, children, creation, etc. etc. etc. 

But for me it is more than this - yet short of unity - it is about recognizing one another as fellow Christians - though we each see those in other denominations in error on many things, other Christians are worthy of our love as brothers and sisters in Christ - there is empathy there, a special bond.  Think of us as a very dysfunctional, broken family.  How would you treat a wayward child or relative with whom you were at odds?  Blood is thicker than water.

But then I am also very big on insisting that Christians actually act like Christians in order to validate their claim to the title let alone their denomination - Christianity doesn't just come with claiming it, in the 'true Church' or not.

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Re: The Chambesy Documents: Orthodox and Ecumenical Relations
« Reply #19 on: Yesterday at 11:57:52 PM »

Dialogue is not a game of compromise on all sides by necessity.

True, but if everybody is acting in good faith and the dialog is successful, it probably will involve a lot of compromises.
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Re: The Chambesy Documents: Orthodox and Ecumenical Relations
« Reply #20 on: Today at 12:05:10 AM »
The problem is that when you insist that the one true Church is the Orthodox Church, then it seems like "unity" just becomes a euphemism for "everybody else converting to Orthodoxy." Dialog is by necessity a game of compromise on all sides and, beyond accommodations as to form like with the WRO, it's unclear how much, if at all, the Orthodox Church can really "compromise" in doctrine while still retaining this emphasis on Orthodoxy having been right all along.

I'm not anti-ecumenism, but I can understand why the Old Calendarists have their suspicions.

I think it is possible to have a meeting of minds short of unity.  The goal should not be unity; it should be finding common ground - practical issues that we can stand together on, such as helping the poor, oppressed, resisting terrorism, threats to religious liberty, protecting the vulnerable in our society, the family, children, creation, etc. etc. etc.

I'm not sure any of that requires a formal dialog, just churches acting morally and being willing to help one another in emergency situations. I'll take concrete actions over pretty sounding "declarations" and "position papers."

But for me it is more than this - yet short of unity - it is about recognizing one another as fellow Christians - though we each see those in other denominations in error on many things, other Christians are worthy of our love as brothers and sisters in Christ - there is empathy there, a special bond.  Think of us as a very dysfunctional, broken family.  How would you treat a wayward child or relative with whom you were at odds?  Blood is thicker than water.

But then I am also very big on insisting that Christians actually act like Christians in order to validate their claim to the title let alone their denomination - Christianity doesn't just come with claiming it, in the 'true Church' or not.

I think that most Orthodox would disagree with this conception of the Church. Saying that there may be true Christians found in those denominations is not the same thing as validating the denomination itself.
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Re: The Chambesy Documents: Orthodox and Ecumenical Relations
« Reply #21 on: Today at 12:39:43 AM »
The problem is that when you insist that the one true Church is the Orthodox Church, then it seems like "unity" just becomes a euphemism for "everybody else converting to Orthodoxy." Dialog is by necessity a game of compromise on all sides and, beyond accommodations as to form like with the WRO, it's unclear how much, if at all, the Orthodox Church can really "compromise" in doctrine while still retaining this emphasis on Orthodoxy having been right all along.

I'm not anti-ecumenism, but I can understand why the Old Calendarists have their suspicions.


But for me it is more than this - yet short of unity - it is about recognizing one another as fellow Christians - though we each see those in other denominations in error on many things, other Christians are worthy of our love as brothers and sisters in Christ - there is empathy there, a special bond.  Think of us as a very dysfunctional, broken family.  How would you treat a wayward child or relative with whom you were at odds?  Blood is thicker than water.

But then I am also very big on insisting that Christians actually act like Christians in order to validate their claim to the title let alone their denomination - Christianity doesn't just come with claiming it, in the 'true Church' or not.

I think that most Orthodox would disagree with this conception of the Church. Saying that there may be true Christians found in those denominations is not the same thing as validating the denomination itself.

What then constitutes a "true Christian?"
« Last Edit: Today at 12:40:18 AM by scamandrius »

Offline Minnesotan

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Re: The Chambesy Documents: Orthodox and Ecumenical Relations
« Reply #22 on: Today at 01:08:22 AM »
The problem is that when you insist that the one true Church is the Orthodox Church, then it seems like "unity" just becomes a euphemism for "everybody else converting to Orthodoxy." Dialog is by necessity a game of compromise on all sides and, beyond accommodations as to form like with the WRO, it's unclear how much, if at all, the Orthodox Church can really "compromise" in doctrine while still retaining this emphasis on Orthodoxy having been right all along.

I'm not anti-ecumenism, but I can understand why the Old Calendarists have their suspicions.


But for me it is more than this - yet short of unity - it is about recognizing one another as fellow Christians - though we each see those in other denominations in error on many things, other Christians are worthy of our love as brothers and sisters in Christ - there is empathy there, a special bond.  Think of us as a very dysfunctional, broken family.  How would you treat a wayward child or relative with whom you were at odds?  Blood is thicker than water.

But then I am also very big on insisting that Christians actually act like Christians in order to validate their claim to the title let alone their denomination - Christianity doesn't just come with claiming it, in the 'true Church' or not.

I think that most Orthodox would disagree with this conception of the Church. Saying that there may be true Christians found in those denominations is not the same thing as validating the denomination itself.

What then constitutes a "true Christian?"

Not sure how to answer that.

However, there is definitely a difference between denominations whose members would hypothetically be received into one's own church solely by profession of faith (or possibly by chrismation) and those who would be required to undergo more stringent measures such as (re)baptism, repudiating past heresies, etc.

I think ecumenical dialogue would take a fundamentally different nature when it's with the former type of group (EO with OO, or either one with RC, ACOTE or some Trinitarian Protestants) than in the latter case (Trinitarian churches with Mormon-derived ones).
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Re: The Chambesy Documents: Orthodox and Ecumenical Relations
« Reply #23 on: Today at 01:51:52 AM »
The problem is that when you insist that the one true Church is the Orthodox Church, then it seems like "unity" just becomes a euphemism for "everybody else converting to Orthodoxy." Dialog is by necessity a game of compromise on all sides and, beyond accommodations as to form like with the WRO, it's unclear how much, if at all, the Orthodox Church can really "compromise" in doctrine while still retaining this emphasis on Orthodoxy having been right all along.

I'm not anti-ecumenism, but I can understand why the Old Calendarists have their suspicions.


But for me it is more than this - yet short of unity - it is about recognizing one another as fellow Christians - though we each see those in other denominations in error on many things, other Christians are worthy of our love as brothers and sisters in Christ - there is empathy there, a special bond.  Think of us as a very dysfunctional, broken family.  How would you treat a wayward child or relative with whom you were at odds?  Blood is thicker than water.

But then I am also very big on insisting that Christians actually act like Christians in order to validate their claim to the title let alone their denomination - Christianity doesn't just come with claiming it, in the 'true Church' or not.

I think that most Orthodox would disagree with this conception of the Church. Saying that there may be true Christians found in those denominations is not the same thing as validating the denomination itself.

What then constitutes a "true Christian?"

Someone who is being saved by Christ. No idea what all the necessary conditions are there (I mean, it's "Love for God and Faith in Christ manifesting itself through works," obviously- but what this could possibly constitute for a non-orthodox).

You see, I'm trying to leave the whole "not all non-Orthodox go to Hell" thing open without succumbing to some form of Branch Theory or postmortem evangelism. It's not easy.
Is that what they teach you at the temple volnutt-stein?

Actually, it's Volnutt-berg.

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Offline christiane777

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Re: The Chambesy Documents: Orthodox and Ecumenical Relations
« Reply #24 on: Today at 02:41:20 AM »
The problem is that when you insist that the one true Church is the Orthodox Church, then it seems like "unity" just becomes a euphemism for "everybody else converting to Orthodoxy." Dialog is by necessity a game of compromise on all sides and, beyond accommodations as to form like with the WRO, it's unclear how much, if at all, the Orthodox Church can really "compromise" in doctrine while still retaining this emphasis on Orthodoxy having been right all along.

I'm not anti-ecumenism, but I can understand why the Old Calendarists have their suspicions.

I think it is possible to have a meeting of minds short of unity.  The goal should not be unity; it should be finding common ground - practical issues that we can stand together on, such as helping the poor, oppressed, resisting terrorism, threats to religious liberty, protecting the vulnerable in our society, the family, children, creation, etc. etc. etc.

I'm not sure any of that requires a formal dialog, just churches acting morally and being willing to help one another in emergency situations. I'll take concrete actions over pretty sounding "declarations" and "position papers."

But for me it is more than this - yet short of unity - it is about recognizing one another as fellow Christians - though we each see those in other denominations in error on many things, other Christians are worthy of our love as brothers and sisters in Christ - there is empathy there, a special bond.  Think of us as a very dysfunctional, broken family.  How would you treat a wayward child or relative with whom you were at odds?  Blood is thicker than water.

But then I am also very big on insisting that Christians actually act like Christians in order to validate their claim to the title let alone their denomination - Christianity doesn't just come with claiming it, in the 'true Church' or not.

I think that most Orthodox would disagree with this conception of the Church. Saying that there may be true Christians found in those denominations is not the same thing as validating the denomination itself.

Well, to me this is the diamond in the rough, right.    If they are good enough to receive God's grace and election, they are good enough for me to look at as brothers and sisters in Christ.

I believe the Church has divided itself through sin - all parties, Catholic, Orthodox and Protestants have been guilty of error, sin, human will overriding God's will in fracturing the Body of Christ.  It will require the Holy Spirit to unite; I don't believe we can.  As a Christian I regard the Body of Christ as my universal Church.

To me a true Christian is one who receives God's grace through faith and is transformed by grace into a witness of Christ in word and deed.  One who does God's will, and does not follow his human will.  I believe there is a hierarchy of Churches, the most complete union with God is found in the 'highest' Churches - the full set of sacraments, Scripture, Tradition - Roman Catholic, Orthodox.  But I accept that Protestants are also in the Body of Christ - they receive grace and achieve union with God, but are deep in error.
Your soul has been assailed by cowardice, which often weighs so heavily on a man--distracting him from honourable trials--as phantoms frighten beasts when shadows fall.

Offline Vanhyo

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Re: The Chambesy Documents: Orthodox and Ecumenical Relations
« Reply #25 on: Today at 04:54:15 AM »
Here are some of the problems i find


*Referring to other christian organizations as churches in a official document

*Also
Quote
While conducting dialogue with other Christians, the Orthodox Church by no means underestimates the difficulties arising from it, but is aware of the obstacles lying on the path to a common understanding of the tradition of the ancient Church.
What is that supposed to mean ?

*How about this -
Quote
the Orthodox Church, in her relations with the rest of the Christian world, relies not only on the human efforts of those involved in the dialogue, but, by the grace of God who prayed “that… all may be one” (Jn 17:21),
Is that an admission that the heterodox are also legitimate successors of the twelve ?

Quote
Common to the Orthodox Church is the awareness of the necessity for conducting inter-Christian theological dialogue and therefore believes that dialogue should always be accompanied by witness to the world through the acts of mutual understanding and love, which reflect the joy unspeakable of the Glad Tidings (1 Pt 1:8 ), excluding any practice of proselytism or any outrageous manifestations of inter-confessional antagonism.
What is that supposed to mean ? If we are not trying to bring the confused heterodox back home into the Orthodox Catholic Church, what are we exactly doing in the WCC ? I am not sure if i understand that statement.


There is much ambiguity and i don't like it. The text needs to be more plain and clear.
« Last Edit: Today at 05:11:32 AM by Vanhyo »

Offline Volnutt

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Re: The Chambesy Documents: Orthodox and Ecumenical Relations
« Reply #26 on: Today at 05:11:41 AM »
Here are some of the problems i find


*Referring to other christian organizations as churches in a official document

*Also
Quote
While conducting dialogue with other Christians, the Orthodox Church by no means underestimates the difficulties arising from it, but is aware of the obstacles lying on the path to a common understanding of the tradition of the ancient Church.
What is that supposed to mean ?

*How about this -
Quote
the Orthodox Church, in her relations with the rest of the Christian world, relies not only on the human efforts of those involved in the dialogue, but, by the grace of God who prayed “that… all may be one” (Jn 17:21),
Is that an admission that the heterodox are also legitimate successors of the twelve ?

Quote
Common to the Orthodox Church is the awareness of the necessity for conducting inter-Christian theological dialogue and therefore believes that dialogue should always be accompanied by witness to the world through the acts of mutual understanding and love, which reflect the joy unspeakable of the Glad Tidings (1 Pt 1:8 ), excluding any practice of proselytism or any outrageous manifestations of inter-confessional antagonism.
What is that supposed to mean ? If we are not trying to bring the confused heterodox back home into the Orthodox Catholic Church, what are we exactly doing in the WCC ? I am not sure if i understand that statements.


There is much ambiguity and i don't like it. The text needs to be more plain and clear.

I guess it all depends on whether or not you believe that RCs, Protestants, etc. pray to and believe in the same God as the Orthodox do. If they do, then in a sense, they are of this tradition even if not in a way that makes them part of the Church. You yourself speak of them as being Christians and as "coming back" to the Orthodox Church.

It's a problem of definitions, and I'm sure that I suffer from it too.
Is that what they teach you at the temple volnutt-stein?

Actually, it's Volnutt-berg.

Rome doesn't care. Rome is actually very cool guy.

Offline Vanhyo

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Re: The Chambesy Documents: Orthodox and Ecumenical Relations
« Reply #27 on: Today at 05:59:42 AM »
Quote
I guess it all depends on whether or not you believe that RCs, Protestants, etc. pray to and believe in the same God as the Orthodox do. If they do, then in a sense, they are of this tradition even if not in a way that makes them part of the Church. You yourself speak of them as being Christians and as "coming back" to the Orthodox Church.

It's a problem of definitions, and I'm sure that I suffer from it too.
The Church is the priesthood and laypeople in communion with them

No priesthood = no Church. It is not correct to refer to protestant sects/cults as a churches.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: The Chambesy Documents: Orthodox and Ecumenical Relations
« Reply #28 on: Today at 06:13:33 AM »
Quote
I guess it all depends on whether or not you believe that RCs, Protestants, etc. pray to and believe in the same God as the Orthodox do. If they do, then in a sense, they are of this tradition even if not in a way that makes them part of the Church. You yourself speak of them as being Christians and as "coming back" to the Orthodox Church.

It's a problem of definitions, and I'm sure that I suffer from it too.
The Church is the priesthood and laypeople in communion with them

No priesthood = no Church. It is not correct to refer to protestant sects/cults as a churches.

I agree. But is it appropriate to refer to them (well, us, since I'm not a yet a catechumen) as Christians?
Is that what they teach you at the temple volnutt-stein?

Actually, it's Volnutt-berg.

Rome doesn't care. Rome is actually very cool guy.

Offline Vanhyo

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Re: The Chambesy Documents: Orthodox and Ecumenical Relations
« Reply #29 on: Today at 07:28:13 AM »
Quote
I agree. But is it appropriate to refer to them (well, us, since I'm not a yet a catechumen) as Christians?

What are you waiting for ? Become one today.

As for your question, its giving me a headache and uneasiness, i feel in a chessmate position, good job sir, you got me.

Offline LenInSebastopol

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Re: The Chambesy Documents: Orthodox and Ecumenical Relations
« Reply #30 on: Today at 09:39:59 AM »
Wonder if such dialogue occurred causing Desert Fathers to run off into caves?
Mark 14:36
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Offline LenInSebastopol

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Re: The Chambesy Documents: Orthodox and Ecumenical Relations
« Reply #31 on: Today at 09:42:18 AM »
The problem is that when you insist that the one true Church is the Orthodox Church, then it seems like "unity" just becomes a euphemism for "everybody else converting to Orthodoxy." Dialog is by necessity a game of compromise on all sides and, beyond accommodations as to form like with the WRO, it's unclear how much, if at all, the Orthodox Church can really "compromise" in doctrine while still retaining this emphasis on Orthodoxy having been right all along.

I'm not anti-ecumenism, but I can understand why the Old Calendarists have their suspicions.

I think it is possible to have a meeting of minds short of unity.  The goal should not be unity; it should be finding common ground - practical issues that we can stand together on, such as helping the poor, oppressed, resisting terrorism, threats to religious liberty, protecting the vulnerable in our society, the family, children, creation, etc. etc. etc.

I'm not sure any of that requires a formal dialog, just churches acting morally and being willing to help one another in emergency situations. I'll take concrete actions over pretty sounding "declarations" and "position papers."

But for me it is more than this - yet short of unity - it is about recognizing one another as fellow Christians - though we each see those in other denominations in error on many things, other Christians are worthy of our love as brothers and sisters in Christ - there is empathy there, a special bond.  Think of us as a very dysfunctional, broken family.  How would you treat a wayward child or relative with whom you were at odds?  Blood is thicker than water.

But then I am also very big on insisting that Christians actually act like Christians in order to validate their claim to the title let alone their denomination - Christianity doesn't just come with claiming it, in the 'true Church' or not.

I think that most Orthodox would disagree with this conception of the Church. Saying that there may be true Christians found in those denominations is not the same thing as validating the denomination itself.

Well, to me this is the diamond in the rough, right.    If they are good enough to receive God's grace and election, they are good enough for me to look at as brothers and sisters in Christ.

I believe the Church has divided itself through sin - all parties, Catholic, Orthodox and Protestants have been guilty of error, sin, human will overriding God's will in fracturing the Body of Christ.  It will require the Holy Spirit to unite; I don't believe we can.  As a Christian I regard the Body of Christ as my universal Church.
To me a true Christian is one who receives God's grace through faith and is transformed by grace into a witness of Christ in word and deed.  One who does God's will, and does not follow his human will. 
I believe there is a hierarchy of Churches, the most complete union with God is found in the 'highest' Churches - the full set of sacraments, Scripture, Tradition - Roman Catholic, Orthodox.  But I accept that Protestants are also in the Body of Christ - they receive grace and achieve union with God, but are deep in error.

+1
And then again, it is what we DO in this life.
Mark 14:36
God is with us, understand O' ye nations, and submit yourselves, for God is with us

Offline LenInSebastopol

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Re: The Chambesy Documents: Orthodox and Ecumenical Relations
« Reply #32 on: Today at 09:47:47 AM »
Honestly, I'd rather see the bishops be puppets of One World Government Marxism (not that I believe this tinfoil hat crap) than of warmongering Russian (or American) tyrants and megacorps. At least the Marxists say that they give a damn about the poor.

In this world you have to pick your poison.

Glad we are not of this world.
BTW, that 70 year experiment in Russia, how'd that turn out for Believers?
At least Mega-Corps don't care about one's religion and will leave folks alone and even encourage practice since it can make them a $.
Mark 14:36
God is with us, understand O' ye nations, and submit yourselves, for God is with us