Author Topic: towards a (proper) Protestant understanding of 1 Peter 3:20,21  (Read 2146 times)

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Re: towards a (proper) Protestant understanding of 1 Peter 3:20,21
« Reply #45 on: May 23, 2016, 01:36:35 PM »

What exactly is your doubt?  Whether Christ did some time-travel between his death and resurrection?  Whether he only preached to a subset of the dead ("people in Noah's time") and not all who happened to be dead?

"Kashmir" ftw!

Eso es una referencia de "Led Zepplin", una groupa musica de Los Estados Unitos.

Maybe you should ask "Led Zepplin" about I Peter 3.20-21.

BTW, "Unidos", not "Unitos".

Also, 'un grupo musical'.

Also-also, Led Zeppelin were British.

This turned out rather awkward, so... kittens?
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Offline mcarmichael

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Re: towards a (proper) Protestant understanding of 1 Peter 3:20,21
« Reply #46 on: May 23, 2016, 02:32:39 PM »

What exactly is your doubt?  Whether Christ did some time-travel between his death and resurrection?  Whether he only preached to a subset of the dead ("people in Noah's time") and not all who happened to be dead?

"Kashmir" ftw!

Eso es una referencia de "Led Zepplin", una groupa musica de Los Estados Unitos.

Maybe you should ask "Led Zepplin" about I Peter 3.20-21.

BTW, "Unidos", not "Unitos".

Also, 'un grupo musical'.

Also-also, Led Zeppelin were British.

This turned out rather awkward, so... kittens?

ty. I considered correcting myself on the place of origin of the British group, "Led Zepplin", but I didn't.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2016, 02:34:02 PM by mcarmichael »

Offline mcarmichael

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Re: towards a (proper) Protestant understanding of 1 Peter 3:20,21
« Reply #47 on: May 23, 2016, 03:24:34 PM »

What exactly is your doubt?  Whether Christ did some time-travel between his death and resurrection?  Whether he only preached to a subset of the dead ("people in Noah's time") and not all who happened to be dead?

"Kashmir" ftw!

Eso es una referencia de "Led Zepplin", una groupa musica de Los Estados Unitos.
In English, please. (Note: When you see a request typed in bold green font like this, recognize that the request is from a moderator and therefore requires your compliance.)

So, to keep with the theme, and not to antagonize you any further, do you want me to translate it in English for you, or are you saying that I cannot says "Kristos Anestis"?

lol

*to English
« Last Edit: May 23, 2016, 03:27:23 PM by mcarmichael »

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Re: towards a (proper) Protestant understanding of 1 Peter 3:20,21
« Reply #48 on: May 23, 2016, 03:40:40 PM »

What exactly is your doubt?  Whether Christ did some time-travel between his death and resurrection?  Whether he only preached to a subset of the dead ("people in Noah's time") and not all who happened to be dead?

"Kashmir" ftw!

Eso es una referencia de "Led Zepplin", una groupa musica de Los Estados Unitos.
In English, please. (Note: When you see a request typed in bold green font like this, recognize that the request is from a moderator and therefore requires your compliance.)

So, to keep with the theme, and not to antagonize you any further, do you want me to translate it in English for you, or are you saying that I cannot says "Kristos Anestis"?

lol

*to English
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Re: towards a (proper) Protestant understanding of 1 Peter 3:20,21
« Reply #49 on: May 23, 2016, 08:10:29 PM »
I suppose because I've suggested that some Protestants might be right about something that nobody's said anything?

Either that, or your minds are just still blown by my keen insight. Which is it?
Are you here on this Faith Issues board to troll us with your Protestantism, or do you really want to discuss things from an Orthodox point of view?

I'm not at all sure. Maybe I thought it would be interesting to get some replies. I'm nearly certain that I didn't intend to troll anyone.
Boasting on a section of the forum devoted solely to discussion of the Orthodox Faith that some Protestants may actually be right about something...

Boasting of your "keen insights"...

Your consistently flippant attitude...

Even if you don't intend to troll us, it's easy to recognize how such conduct will quickly make you unpopular with your hosts.

Hey, c'mon Pete. That was a little harsh I think.
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Wait. Was your mind legitimately "blown" by my "keen" observations? Because I *was* being sarcastic, afterall.

What the... no way, pascha is over,
Dude, Pascha ain't over 'til we celebrate the Ascension on June 9. ;)

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Great point, thanks for the correction about Pascha.

Offline mcarmichael

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Re: towards a (proper) Protestant understanding of 1 Peter 3:20,21
« Reply #50 on: May 23, 2016, 08:18:40 PM »

What exactly is your doubt?  Whether Christ did some time-travel between his death and resurrection?  Whether he only preached to a subset of the dead ("people in Noah's time") and not all who happened to be dead?

"Kashmir" ftw!

Eso es una referencia de "Led Zepplin", una groupa musica de Los Estados Unitos.
In English, please. (Note: When you see a request typed in bold green font like this, recognize that the request is from a moderator and therefore requires your compliance.)

So, to keep with the theme, and not to antagonize you any further, do you want me to translate it in English for you, or are you saying that I cannot says "Kristos Anestis"?

lol

*to English
  • Do not be smart with me (or with any moderator) when you see a moderatorial directive like this. To let you know that you're taking this flippant disrespect too far, I am giving you a 5-point warning to stop this. If you wish to appeal this warning, please PM me.
  • With the exception of obvious phrases such as "Kyrie eleison" or "Kristos Anesti", anything you post in a foreign language must include an English translation. Yes I want you to translate your post to English.

I do what I want.



No, you don't. My request that you post an English translation of your foreign-language post was a reasonable request made to enforce compliance with forum rules. Your defiant insistence on arguing with me publicly even though I instructed you to appeal my warning via private message is intolerable. If you want to be a productive contributor to the forum community at OC.net, you need to understand our rules and strive to comply with them.

To let you know how important it is that you comply with the rules of our community and with moderatorial directives, I am increasing your warning status to 30 points. For the next 5 days your posts will be screened for compliance with our rules. Any post that does not comply will be rejected and not allowed to appear on our forum.

Again, if you wish to argue with my warning, you are permitted to do so only via private message to me.

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« Last Edit: May 25, 2016, 01:36:38 PM by PeterTheAleut »

Offline mcarmichael

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Re: towards a (proper) Protestant understanding of 1 Peter 3:20,21
« Reply #51 on: May 27, 2016, 09:50:11 PM »


I do what I want.



No, you don't. My request that you post an English translation of your foreign-language post was a reasonable request made to enforce compliance with forum rules. Your defiant insistence on arguing with me publicly even though I instructed you to appeal my warning via private message is intolerable. If you want to be a productive contributor to the forum community at OC.net, you need to understand our rules and strive to comply with them.

To let you know how important it is that you comply with the rules of our community and with moderatorial directives, I am increasing your warning status to 30 points. For the next 5 days your posts will be screened for compliance with our rules. Any post that does not comply will be rejected and not allowed to appear on our forum.

Again, if you wish to argue with my warning, you are permitted to do so only via private message to me.

- PeterTheAleut


I was actually booted from christianforums.com for the same reason. So you're going easy on me - which I appreciate, and it's why I won't argue with whatever you said here.

Offline mcarmichael

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Re: towards a (proper) Protestant understanding of 1 Peter 3:20,21
« Reply #52 on: May 29, 2016, 09:37:15 PM »
So are there "pios opinions" regarding the person of the Trinity, or is it sort of off-limits?

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Re: towards a (proper) Protestant understanding of 1 Peter 3:20,21
« Reply #53 on: May 30, 2016, 01:51:57 PM »
So are there "pios opinions" regarding the person of the Trinity, or is it sort of off-limits?

One pious opinion--nay, truth--is that there are actually three persons. 

Offline mcarmichael

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Re: towards a (proper) Protestant understanding of 1 Peter 3:20,21
« Reply #54 on: June 03, 2016, 09:48:53 PM »
This the NKJV copy of 1 Peter 3:18-21:
"For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us[e] to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited[f] in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water."

So, I guess whether He preached to them then or more recently isn't so signficant (although I still prefer my interpretation, for various reason) - however the question becomes what does it mean that He (Christ) preached to them ... by the Spirit?

Does it work ontologically?

Thanks.

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Re: towards a (proper) Protestant understanding of 1 Peter 3:20,21
« Reply #55 on: June 03, 2016, 09:52:10 PM »

I am Greek. What exactly you can't understand of the passage? I can't find something that is difficult of this. The passage says that Christ preached to the people that were in the prison of death, after his death, with the power of the Holy Spirit. He, as a God-man, beat the death and gave life to all people that had no hope due to their sins in Hell. Salvation is for all, living and dead. In our Church we celebrate this preaching in Hades at Great Saturday.

So isn't there any indication in the Greek text that Christ preached to the people in Noah's time, rather than more recently?

This would not be at all unheard of, according to the Patristic tradition, because isn't "The Angel of the Lord", in particular, sometimes considered the Pre-Incarnate Christ?

It's not a sticking point, but rather a curiosity. Thanks.

Of course He is the Angel of the Lord and the Wisdom of Him as the Bible says through Isaih, Solomon etc... God the Father speaks to people ONLY through His Son, His Word before, at and after the incarnation of Him. The text says that Jesus preached to the people that died in Noah's time.

pls. see above. ty

Edit: Also, what about the thing that says that the Holy Spirit spoke by the prophets? Hm?
« Last Edit: June 03, 2016, 09:59:50 PM by mcarmichael »

Offline mcarmichael

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Re: towards a (proper) Protestant understanding of 1 Peter 3:20,21
« Reply #56 on: June 20, 2016, 04:44:58 PM »
What about Genesis 4:26 "And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call on the name of the LORD." - pretty much ever translation of this passage besides the ISV, which reads: "And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to profane the name of the Lord." (paraphrased)

The ISV makes more sense, and is more interesting.

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Re: towards a (proper) Protestant understanding of 1 Peter 3:20,21
« Reply #57 on: June 30, 2016, 11:02:36 PM »
Protestants on the whole don't think about that passage much.  Maybe the more educated and less dogmatic and freethinking contemplate those sorts of things.  I just got done reading a book called Revising Old Scratch by a Church of Christ pastor talking about the "Harrowing of Hell", but on the whole it's not something the average Protestant thinks about.

Protestantism emerged when western people were so terrified of an immediate fate of heaven or hell after death that they wanted to know exactly where they were going when they died.

I grew up Methodist and attended a conservative, baptisty bible study as a teenager.  Can you believe I thought that David and other old testament saints were still in Hell?  It was just never a topic that came up to be discussed.  Everything was about individual salvation, and if it wasn't relevant, it wasn't discussed.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2016, 11:03:36 PM by Daedelus1138 »

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Re: towards a (proper) Protestant understanding of 1 Peter 3:20,21
« Reply #58 on: June 30, 2016, 11:37:45 PM »
What about Genesis 4:26 "And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call on the name of the LORD." - pretty much ever translation of this passage besides the ISV, which reads: "And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to profane the name of the Lord." (paraphrased)

The ISV makes more sense, and is more interesting.

Which is to say, "At that time, men began to call on God by the name 'Jehovah' " ("LORD," in small caps, is the traditional way in English to translate YHWH without breaking the old taboos). We won't read of men calling on God by the name YHWH again until He so re-revealed Himself to Moses.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2016, 11:39:03 PM by Porter ODoran »
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Re: towards a (proper) Protestant understanding of 1 Peter 3:20,21
« Reply #59 on: June 30, 2016, 11:42:43 PM »
Protestants on the whole don't think about that passage much.  Maybe the more educated and less dogmatic and freethinking contemplate those sorts of things.  I just got done reading a book called Revising Old Scratch by a Church of Christ pastor talking about the "Harrowing of Hell", but on the whole it's not something the average Protestant thinks about.

Protestantism emerged when western people were so terrified of an immediate fate of heaven or hell after death that they wanted to know exactly where they were going when they died.

I grew up Methodist and attended a conservative, baptisty bible study as a teenager.  Can you believe I thought that David and other old testament saints were still in Hell?  It was just never a topic that came up to be discussed.  Everything was about individual salvation, and if it wasn't relevant, it wasn't discussed.

For all the Protestant fervor for doctrine, there are some very key pieces of theology they seem just to have lost. And so someone like Joseph Smith can have a hayday filling in those gaps with interpretations novel but credible enough to convince members to switch brands.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: towards a (proper) Protestant understanding of 1 Peter 3:20,21
« Reply #60 on: July 01, 2016, 02:55:26 PM »
Luther said this of the Harrowing of Hell "It is enough to preach the article to the laypeople as they have learned to know it in the past from the stained glass and other sources" - he counted on the vestiges of Christendom to uphold the doctrine.  But it really didn't feature prominently in Lutheran theology, and it was no doubt shortsighted on his part to not elaborate on this doctrine.  But still, it is in the traditional Apostles Creed that mainline Lutherans and Episcopalians still use (Methodists omit it).

Calvin spun it differently.  Somehow Christ suffered in hell, enduring the punishment for the redeemed.  Most other Protestants take a similar denial to heart and omit the "he descended into Hell" in the Apostles Creed

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Re: towards a (proper) Protestant understanding of 1 Peter 3:20,21
« Reply #61 on: July 01, 2016, 02:58:02 PM »
Luther said this of the Harrowing of Hell "It is enough to preach the article to the laypeople as they have learned to know it in the past from the stained glass and other sources" - he counted on the vestiges of Christendom to uphold the doctrine. 

Interesting!  Do you know of any other instances in which he appealed to "other sources" as support for traditional Christian doctrine? 

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Re: towards a (proper) Protestant understanding of 1 Peter 3:20,21
« Reply #62 on: July 01, 2016, 03:22:30 PM »
[quote author=Daedelus1138 link=topic=68999.msg1406813#msg1406813
Interesting!  Do you know of any other instances in which he appealed to "other sources" as support for traditional Christian doctrine?

Luther made reference to the early Church fathers occasionally.  Lutherans are not opposed to tradition necessarily where it does not contradict the Scriptures (which is why Lutherans traditionally believed, and even confessed, the perpetual virginity of Mary).

In the modern ELCA and NALC you will find the descent into Hell taught the same as Orthodox Christians... but in the LCMS you will often find more fundamentalist answers that claim "Christ conquered Hell for us that believe".  It's left very vague what happened to Old Testament saints, the people that drowned in Noah's flood, and so on.  It's almost like that's too much to ask about, since it distracts from personal salvation.   As you can see there is a great deal of difference in the approaches of the two churches, one is liberal the other is fundamentalist.

Another thing an Orthodox Christian might not be aware of - praying for the dead is a practice retained in the Lutheran confessions, even if you won't see many modern Lutherans engaging in the practice.  It's something a minority of catholic learning Lutherans do practice, however, but it doesn't resemble the Roman Catholic practice at all- it's not based on indulgences or purgatory.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2016, 03:30:41 PM by Daedelus1138 »

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Re: towards a (proper) Protestant understanding of 1 Peter 3:20,21
« Reply #63 on: July 01, 2016, 04:56:53 PM »
how does heresy properly understand Scripture? :o

That said, the Lutherans still confessed the Descent into Hell, saying that they didn't know much about it.
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Re: towards a (proper) Protestant understanding of 1 Peter 3:20,21
« Reply #64 on: July 01, 2016, 05:25:48 PM »
For what it's worth, what I heard most often growing up (among Amish-Mennonites who aspired to be Baptists theologically) were two things: First, that Christ would never have gone to hell, as that would make him imperfect; and never have preached to the dead lost, as that would imply that praying for the dead would then not be the terrible heresy it is. The translation is botched by Catholic influences on King James. Second, that as the Mormons make this such a big verse (it's one of their proof texts for how more has been revealed to their prophets than to Christians), it is not wholesome for us to inquire into it or teach on it lest we tempt some brethren to fall away and become Mormons.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline mcarmichael

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Re: towards a (proper) Protestant understanding of 1 Peter 3:20,21
« Reply #65 on: July 01, 2016, 07:44:45 PM »
Protestants on the whole don't think about that passage much.  Maybe the more educated and less dogmatic and freethinking contemplate those sorts of things.  I just got done reading a book called Revising Old Scratch by a Church of Christ pastor talking about the "Harrowing of Hell", but on the whole it's not something the average Protestant thinks about.

Protestantism emerged when western people were so terrified of an immediate fate of heaven or hell after death that they wanted to know exactly where they were going when they died.

I grew up Methodist and attended a conservative, baptisty bible study as a teenager.  Can you believe I thought that David and other old testament saints were still in Hell?  It was just never a topic that came up to be discussed.  Everything was about individual salvation, and if it wasn't relevant, it wasn't discussed.

That's why I qualified the term I used in the title. I'm not surprised someone from the Church of Christ would write a book about it, though. Which way did he read it?

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Re: towards a (proper) Protestant understanding of 1 Peter 3:20,21
« Reply #66 on: July 01, 2016, 07:51:00 PM »
What about Genesis 4:26 "And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call on the name of the LORD." - pretty much ever translation of this passage besides the ISV, which reads: "And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to profane the name of the Lord." (paraphrased)

The ISV makes more sense, and is more interesting.

Which is to say, "At that time, men began to call on God by the name 'Jehovah' " ("LORD," in small caps, is the traditional way in English to translate YHWH without breaking the old taboos). We won't read of men calling on God by the name YHWH again until He so re-revealed Himself to Moses.

That's interesting. I did a google search, "Who wrote Genesis?", and this was the result: https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=who+wrote+genesis

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Re: towards a (proper) Protestant understanding of 1 Peter 3:20,21
« Reply #67 on: July 01, 2016, 11:17:02 PM »
That's why I qualified the term I used in the title. I'm not surprised someone from the Church of Christ would write a book about it, though. Which way did he read it?

He understood it in more or less the same sense the Orthodox do.

I actually know very little about the Church of Christ... I had heard they were fundamentalist but my perception of the book is that the author is more like a mainline Methodist, and focuses a lot on social justice issues... until working in prison forced him to think more about Satan and spiritual warfare, and question a liberal, mainline approach to faith. He still hasn't turned his back on it altogether, and the book is not so much about spiritual warfare as it is about facing up to how impoverishing and unbiblical the disenchantment of much of American mainline Protestant religion can be.  He focuses a lot on Pentecostal and Charismatic worship and what is different about it, for instance. 

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Re: towards a (proper) Protestant understanding of 1 Peter 3:20,21
« Reply #68 on: July 02, 2016, 12:37:21 AM »
That's why I qualified the term I used in the title. I'm not surprised someone from the Church of Christ would write a book about it, though. Which way did he read it?

He understood it in more or less the same sense the Orthodox do.

I actually know very little about the Church of Christ... I had heard they were fundamentalist but my perception of the book is that the author is more like a mainline Methodist, and focuses a lot on social justice issues... until working in prison forced him to think more about Satan and spiritual warfare, and question a liberal, mainline approach to faith. He still hasn't turned his back on it altogether, and the book is not so much about spiritual warfare as it is about facing up to how impoverishing and unbiblical the disenchantment of much of American mainline Protestant religion can be.  He focuses a lot on Pentecostal and Charismatic worship and what is different about it, for instance.

Church of Christ, Christian, or United Church of Christ? Church of Christ or Disciples of Christ (the other Campbellite descendants who are often also historically called Church of Christ)?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: towards a (proper) Protestant understanding of 1 Peter 3:20,21
« Reply #69 on: July 02, 2016, 09:21:05 AM »
Church of Christ, Christian, or United Church of Christ? Church of Christ or Disciples of Christ (the other Campbellite descendants who are often also historically called Church of Christ)?

I'm guessing based on his tone, he's part of the Disciples of Christ.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01GOZRQ42/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1

Offline mcarmichael

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Re: towards a (proper) Protestant understanding of 1 Peter 3:20,21
« Reply #70 on: July 02, 2016, 07:50:00 PM »
That's why I qualified the term I used in the title. I'm not surprised someone from the Church of Christ would write a book about it, though. Which way did he read it?

He understood it in more or less the same sense the Orthodox do.

I actually know very little about the Church of Christ... I had heard they were fundamentalist but my perception of the book is that the author is more like a mainline Methodist, and focuses a lot on social justice issues... until working in prison forced him to think more about Satan and spiritual warfare, and question a liberal, mainline approach to faith. He still hasn't turned his back on it altogether, and the book is not so much about spiritual warfare as it is about facing up to how impoverishing and unbiblical the disenchantment of much of American mainline Protestant religion can be.  He focuses a lot on Pentecostal and Charismatic worship and what is different about it, for instance.

They put an "emphasis" on baptism, sort of (ie. they practice it), and they use the same passage as a proof text, if it's the same Church of Christ I'm thinking of.

Offline Justin Kolodziej

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Re: towards a (proper) Protestant understanding of 1 Peter 3:20,21
« Reply #71 on: July 02, 2016, 10:11:35 PM »
One further problem in English is that "Sheol" and "Hades" and "Gehenna" all just end up being translated into "Hell", when they are not the same thing. Well, "Sheol" and "Hades" are, as far as I know, just the realm of the dead, whatever THAT may be, while "Gehenna" is the "Hell of fire and brimstone" from all the popular descriptions. Of course, St. Peter doesn't actually use any of those terms anyway. Good thing there are the Fathers to figure all this out...

Also "philia" and "agape" and "eros" end up being "love", but that's a bit off the topic. English stinks! :P But if all you have is an English Bible and a belief that any believer should be able to figure out what it says, it's not surprising that things go wrong.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: towards a (proper) Protestant understanding of 1 Peter 3:20,21
« Reply #72 on: July 02, 2016, 10:46:43 PM »
One further problem in English is that "Sheol" and "Hades" and "Gehenna" all just end up being translated into "Hell", when they are not the same thing. Well, "Sheol" and "Hades" are, as far as I know, just the realm of the dead, whatever THAT may be, while "Gehenna" is the "Hell of fire and brimstone" from all the popular descriptions. Of course, St. Peter doesn't actually use any of those terms anyway. Good thing there are the Fathers to figure all this out...

Also "philia" and "agape" and "eros" end up being "love", but that's a bit off the topic. English stinks! :P But if all you have is an English Bible and a belief that any believer should be able to figure out what it says, it's not surprising that things go wrong.

Absolutely. Altho it's not really English that "stinks." "Hell" was originally the Germanic equivalent of "Hades." English forbear languages had words similar to our "cherish" and "like" that could conceivably have described multiple kinds of love. In addition, we early on had a wide variety of loan-words that could have fulfilled these purposes and more. No, it isn't the English language in itself that was inadequate, but evidently the English theological will.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Online Daedelus1138

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Re: towards a (proper) Protestant understanding of 1 Peter 3:20,21
« Reply #73 on: July 02, 2016, 11:40:33 PM »
In the OCA usually they translated Hades as "Hell" in the liturgy.   It's perfectly OK as a translation.  Sometimes "Sheol" would be used if it were an Old Testament reading, such as the Psalms.   It's just medieval Catholicism and Dante have had a firm grip on the western imagination for a long, long time.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2016, 11:42:23 PM by Daedelus1138 »

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: towards a (proper) Protestant understanding of 1 Peter 3:20,21
« Reply #74 on: July 03, 2016, 12:05:08 AM »
In the OCA usually they translated Hades as "Hell" in the liturgy.   It's perfectly OK as a translation.  Sometimes "Sheol" would be used if it were an Old Testament reading, such as the Psalms.   It's just medieval Catholicism and Dante have had a firm grip on the western imagination for a long, long time.

It's not really okay to translate all three as "hell." That's the problem, not the choice of translating "Hades." English-language readers and hearers need a way to detect the difference between "Hades," "tartarus," and "sheol" (and "phileo," "agapao," and "erao")or two-thirds of what the evangelists, apostles, and theologians meant is lost.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline mcarmichael

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Re: towards a (proper) Protestant understanding of 1 Peter 3:20,21
« Reply #75 on: July 03, 2016, 09:22:26 PM »
In the OCA usually they translated Hades as "Hell" in the liturgy.   It's perfectly OK as a translation.  Sometimes "Sheol" would be used if it were an Old Testament reading, such as the Psalms.   It's just medieval Catholicism and Dante have had a firm grip on the western imagination for a long, long time.

It's not really okay to translate all three as "hell." That's the problem, not the choice of translating "Hades." English-language readers and hearers need a way to detect the difference between "Hades," "tartarus," and "sheol" (and "phileo," "agapao," and "erao")or two-thirds of what the evangelists, apostles, and theologians meant is lost.

It's not okay but it's okay, mebbe? (per Luther)?
« Last Edit: July 03, 2016, 09:23:23 PM by mcarmichael »

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: towards a (proper) Protestant understanding of 1 Peter 3:20,21
« Reply #76 on: July 03, 2016, 10:05:20 PM »
In the OCA usually they translated Hades as "Hell" in the liturgy.   It's perfectly OK as a translation.  Sometimes "Sheol" would be used if it were an Old Testament reading, such as the Psalms.   It's just medieval Catholicism and Dante have had a firm grip on the western imagination for a long, long time.

It's not really okay to translate all three as "hell." That's the problem, not the choice of translating "Hades." English-language readers and hearers need a way to detect the difference between "Hades," "tartarus," and "sheol" (and "phileo," "agapao," and "erao")or two-thirds of what the evangelists, apostles, and theologians meant is lost.

It's not okay but it's okay, mebbe? (per Luther)?

As a rule, Christian terminology in a language was standard long before any given Bible translation was made.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline mcarmichael

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Re: towards a (proper) Protestant understanding of 1 Peter 3:20,21
« Reply #77 on: July 03, 2016, 10:56:21 PM »
In the OCA usually they translated Hades as "Hell" in the liturgy.   It's perfectly OK as a translation.  Sometimes "Sheol" would be used if it were an Old Testament reading, such as the Psalms.   It's just medieval Catholicism and Dante have had a firm grip on the western imagination for a long, long time.

It's not really okay to translate all three as "hell." That's the problem, not the choice of translating "Hades." English-language readers and hearers need a way to detect the difference between "Hades," "tartarus," and "sheol" (and "phileo," "agapao," and "erao")or two-thirds of what the evangelists, apostles, and theologians meant is lost.

It's not okay but it's okay, mebbe? (per Luther)?

As a rule, Christian terminology in a language was standard long before any given Bible translation was made.

????

For example, then, "metanoia" in Hebrews chapter 6 verse 26 could not have an ... proprietary meaning, and also be held as Biblical? Or am I projecting?

edit: I probably went too far with it. I'm drinking a little bit.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2016, 11:06:26 PM by mcarmichael »

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: towards a (proper) Protestant understanding of 1 Peter 3:20,21
« Reply #78 on: July 03, 2016, 11:24:54 PM »
The English Bible is rife with theologically-technical terms that can be criticized, but think about it. If a language-speaking population is not to conduct all theological speech in a foreign language (Greek) then some kind of vulgar terms must be developed. In the English New Testament, some such terms are Germanic, some are Norman, some are Latin or pseudo-Latin (like your "repent"), some are transliterations (with whatever degree of precision) of Greek or Hellenized Hebrew. To my knowledge, traditionalist translators like Coverdale or the KJV committees did not invent any of these usages. The usages were developed by the English Church, over hundreds of years.

The details of how and why are unimportant -- what is important is that a term be used consistently, that it be used with understanding, and that it be used throughout a language-speaking Christian population. The criticisms that are labeled at "repent" are not legitimate by this standard. Whatever the story behind the invention of the word, the translations use it consistently and the English-speaking population has long been entirely familiar with it. (In a linguistic era such as ours, where new terms are so often concocted of acronyms, scraps of pseudo-Latin, and even numerals, I'm not sure how authentic is this sudden concern with the etymological integrity of "repent.") No, if there is any criticism to be directed at the term, it could not be at its choice in translation but perhaps at modern denominations' transmutations of the concept itself -- that is, if "repent" is harsh and unrealistic compared to μετάνοια (I'm not agreeing that it is), then that is the fault of preachers and teachers, not of any arrangement of letters.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline mcarmichael

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Re: towards a (proper) Protestant understanding of 1 Peter 3:20,21
« Reply #79 on: July 15, 2016, 09:13:51 PM »
The text says that Jesus preached to the people that died in Noah's time.

Not to be trite, but that doesn't actually help us (read: me) much here. The question is the timing, yeah? Is there any support for the view that the Apostle Peter might have intended that Christ preached to the spirits now in prison (when long ago the ark was a-preparing)?

Thanks for the comeback.

Offline mcarmichael

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Re: towards a (proper) Protestant understanding of 1 Peter 3:20,21
« Reply #80 on: July 16, 2016, 10:57:18 PM »

This turned out rather awkward, so... kittens?

Wait! It's not over yet! Not quite! Hahaha!

Anyway, it's not anything against the holiday. The holiday is fine.

Offline mcarmichael

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I remembered yesterday where St. Paul the Apostle wrote "ye shall judge angels" - except which angels shall we judge? Not the holy angels, who are above reproach. Surely the angels who sinned, spoken of also by St. Jude, no?

So it's not only 2 Peter and Jude. It's also Paul.