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Author Topic: Adapted Liturgy of John Chrysostom according to the 1979 BCP  (Read 681 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: December 18, 2014, 05:05:38 PM »

http://youtu.be/R6t2LwAFAFE

As someone familiar with the modified Syriac rites in use among certain Indian Protestants, I find this video interesting in terms of the choices made in adapting an Eastern rite to Protestant belief for the purposes of worship. 
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« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2014, 05:20:08 PM »

Watched few seconds.

No. Just no. You already ruined the Roman rite. Please don't ruin the Byzantine rite.
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« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2014, 05:28:49 PM »

Watched few seconds.

I watched the whole thing. 
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« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2014, 05:41:07 PM »

Watched few seconds.

I watched the whole thing. 

I watched most of it. I think it is a step in the right direction.
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« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2014, 05:55:47 PM »

One of the guys behind this (apparently there's a Byzantine-rite Anglican movement) posted here a while back.

He was greeted with so much invective he didn't come back.
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« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2014, 05:57:41 PM »

Watched few seconds.

I watched the whole thing. 

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« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2014, 06:13:55 PM »

That deacon who was barking through the Great Litany (instead of singing it) sounded like Wilford Brimley.
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« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2014, 07:11:15 PM »

One of the guys behind this (apparently there's a Byzantine-rite Anglican movement) posted here a while back.

He was greeted with so much invective he didn't come back.

That's too bad. This was like an early rehearsal performance, perhaps an advanced read-through in theater parlance, and they did fairly well. I think folks were grossly unfair to greet it with invective; they should have been encouraging instead.
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« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2014, 08:28:48 PM »

One of the guys behind this (apparently there's a Byzantine-rite Anglican movement) posted here a while back.

He was greeted with so much invective he didn't come back.

That's too bad. This was like an early rehearsal performance, perhaps an advanced read-through in theater parlance, and they did fairly well. I think folks were grossly unfair to greet it with invective; they should have been encouraging instead.

Click the link in the site Carl provided for a 2014 version of the Liturgy..There is a pdf...The "s/he" is a bit odd to.my eyes...
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« Reply #9 on: December 18, 2014, 09:40:45 PM »

Ugh.
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« Reply #10 on: December 18, 2014, 10:16:16 PM »

This made me lol, but I give them an A for effort even if it is a bit cringeworthy.
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« Reply #11 on: December 18, 2014, 10:21:20 PM »

Ukrainian Lutherans have already done something like this.
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« Reply #12 on: December 18, 2014, 10:21:42 PM »

This made me lol, but I give them an A for effort even if it is a bit cringeworthy.

My, you're being kind.

Like Alpo, I could only stomach a few minutes.  Tongue Tongue
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« Reply #13 on: December 18, 2014, 10:22:25 PM »

I really don't know whether to be happy or shocked by this. Maybe it is a step in the right direction for the Anglican Communion but then again, they might(I didn't watch the whole video) alter the original Liturgy to be more "Protestant" just like how the Byzantine Lutherans did.
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« Reply #14 on: December 18, 2014, 10:31:28 PM »

Ukrainian Lutherans have already done something like this.
Doesn't make it right.
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« Reply #15 on: December 18, 2014, 10:37:15 PM »

Ukrainian Lutherans have already done something like this.
Doesn't make it right.

Precisely.

It's little different to those who dabble in iconography because it's "spiritual", and end up producing schlock. Bells and smells alone do not equate to authentic worship.
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« Reply #16 on: December 18, 2014, 10:58:53 PM »

More and more people seem to feel a compulsion toward the Way. It's worth remembering the Fathers are the fathers of all. Even Americans do not, from the perspective of truth, live to be spiritual orphans.
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« Reply #17 on: December 18, 2014, 11:07:52 PM »

More and more people seem to feel a compulsion toward the Way. It's worth remembering the Fathers are the fathers of all. Even Americans do not, from the perspective of truth, live to be spiritual orphans.

Orthodoxy exists everywhere. If these folks truly want to use an Orthodox liturgy, they should make the effort to seek out Orthodox churches and attend their services, gain an understanding of what Orthodox liturgical practice is and teaches, and, all being well, be formally received into the Church.

It is irreverent and disrespectful to chop and change the liturgy as they have done. It is little different to what these people are doing:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,52101.msg943540.html#msg943540
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« Reply #18 on: December 18, 2014, 11:25:14 PM »

These threads also shed light on the matter:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,41233.0.html

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,52101.0/all.html
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« Reply #19 on: December 19, 2014, 01:26:01 AM »

One of the guys behind this (apparently there's a Byzantine-rite Anglican movement) posted here a while back.

He was greeted with so much invective he didn't come back.

That's too bad. This was like an early rehearsal performance, perhaps an advanced read-through in theater parlance, and they did fairly well. I think folks were grossly unfair to greet it with invective; they should have been encouraging instead.

Click the link in the site Carl provided for a 2014 version of the Liturgy..There is a pdf...The "s/he" is a bit odd to.my eyes...


Lord, spare me the sight of a priestess performing the Divine Liturgy (see pg 18 of said pdf{http://www.easternanglicanism.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/divineliturgy.pdf} for relevant details).
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« Reply #20 on: December 19, 2014, 01:34:20 AM »

More and more people seem to feel a compulsion toward the Way. It's worth remembering the Fathers are the fathers of all. Even Americans do not, from the perspective of truth, live to be spiritual orphans.

Orthodoxy exists everywhere. If these folks truly want to use an Orthodox liturgy, they should make the effort to seek out Orthodox churches and attend their services, gain an understanding of what Orthodox liturgical practice is and teaches, and, all being well, be formally received into the Church.

It is irreverent and disrespectful to chop and change the liturgy as they have done. It is little different to what these people are doing:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,52101.msg943540.html#msg943540

I don't think it's disrespectful since they're just following their conscience. They are wrong, not disrespectful.
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« Reply #21 on: December 19, 2014, 01:48:36 AM »

More and more people seem to feel a compulsion toward the Way. It's worth remembering the Fathers are the fathers of all. Even Americans do not, from the perspective of truth, live to be spiritual orphans.

Orthodoxy exists everywhere. If these folks truly want to use an Orthodox liturgy, they should make the effort to seek out Orthodox churches and attend their services, gain an understanding of what Orthodox liturgical practice is and teaches, and, all being well, be formally received into the Church.

It is irreverent and disrespectful to chop and change the liturgy as they have done. It is little different to what these people are doing:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,52101.msg943540.html#msg943540

On the converse, do you believe is it wrong and disrespectful for Orthodox people to appropriate Anglican and classical Roman rites?

(Not being a gadfly -- an honest question at the end of a year in which the ever annoying buzzwords 'cultural appropriation' have been in my periphery)
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« Reply #22 on: December 19, 2014, 01:51:38 AM »

On the converse, do you believe is it wrong and disrespectful for Orthodox people to appropriate Anglican and classical Roman rites?

(Not being a gadfly -- an honest question at the end of a year in which the ever annoying buzzwords 'cultural appropriation' have been in my periphery)

Where have Orthodox people appropriated Anglican and classical (whatever that means) Roman rites?
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« Reply #23 on: December 19, 2014, 01:55:45 AM »

On the converse, do you believe is it wrong and disrespectful for Orthodox people to appropriate Anglican and classical Roman rites?

(Not being a gadfly -- an honest question at the end of a year in which the ever annoying buzzwords 'cultural appropriation' have been in my periphery)

Where have Orthodox people appropriated Anglican and classical (whatever that means) Roman rites?
Classical in this case means Tridentine rather than Novus Ordo.

At least in the U.S. the Antiochains' (admittedly small) Western Rite is barely the Anglican Rite redone except where it's some vague reworking of the Tridentine.
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« Reply #24 on: December 19, 2014, 02:00:55 AM »

More and more people seem to feel a compulsion toward the Way. It's worth remembering the Fathers are the fathers of all. Even Americans do not, from the perspective of truth, live to be spiritual orphans.

Orthodoxy exists everywhere. If these folks truly want to use an Orthodox liturgy, they should make the effort to seek out Orthodox churches and attend their services, gain an understanding of what Orthodox liturgical practice is and teaches, and, all being well, be formally received into the Church.

It is irreverent and disrespectful to chop and change the liturgy as they have done. It is little different to what these people are doing:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,52101.msg943540.html#msg943540

I don't think it's disrespectful since they're just following their conscience. They are wrong, not disrespectful.

I agree with Alpo. I remembering reading this article a while ago about the Georgian Baptists. The article was obviously written by a Protestant because it referred to the Georgian Baptists' "unusual method of contextualizing the gospel".

You have to realize that according to many Protestants, Orthodoxy has a "deficient gospel" and that only Protestants fully know what "the gospel" is. Of course I would strongly disagree with this view, but many Protestants simply take it as a given that Orthodox Christians "don't believe you can really have a personal relationship with Jesus" or think that "you need to go through saints/Mary/the Church to get to God", etc.

Given that fact, the Protestants and Anglicans who do this kind of thing are merely acting in accordance with their own beliefs.

I remember seeing an interview with Penn Jillette in which he explained that he has nothing personally against the Christians (mostly evangelical Protestants) who had repeatedly tried to convert him, even though he's an atheist and has no plans to become a Christian. Penn said that he understands where they're coming from and that he empathizes with them because he knows they're only acting out of love for him (even if, in his view, it's a misguided love).

They sincerely believe that there's a God who will send everyone who doesn't accept Jesus as their personal savior to hell, and that the only way someone can be saved is if they have "the gospel" preached to them by someone else on the street. So, if they didn't try and convert him, it would mean that they hated his guts and wanted to see him burn in hell. As a result, Penn Jillette says he admires the folks for trying to convert him even though he finds it annoying, because he knows it means they do care about him.

I feel the same way about the Georgian Baptists and other similar groups. If they truly believe that Orthodoxy is Christian in name only, and that Orthodox believers therefore need to be "won over to Christ" (the Protestant version of him), and that it's easier to win someone over to Christ if you "contextualize the message" (which in a historically Orthodox country, would meaning adopting incense, vestments, icons, etc), then the fact that they're doing this stuff only means they care about the Orthodox Georgians enough to want to see them "get saved". Of course, they are simply wrong about all of these things, so their concern is ultimately misguided.

Still, it's better than what some Protestant groups in those countries do, which is to simply wall themselves off, never talk to or dialogue with the Orthodox, while privately telling themselves that the Orthodox are all going to hell and that only their sect has the true salvation. I have a lot more respect for the actively proselytizing Protestants than I do for the cultish, elitist, "we're-the-only-ones-saved-but-let's-just-keep-that-fact-to-ourselves" types.
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« Reply #25 on: December 19, 2014, 02:06:27 AM »

On the converse, do you believe is it wrong and disrespectful for Orthodox people to appropriate Anglican and classical Roman rites?

(Not being a gadfly -- an honest question at the end of a year in which the ever annoying buzzwords 'cultural appropriation' have been in my periphery)

Where have Orthodox people appropriated Anglican and classical (whatever that means) Roman rites?
Classical in this case means Tridentine rather than Novus Ordo.

At least in the U.S. the Antiochains' (admittedly small) Western Rite is barely the Anglican Rite redone except where it's some vague reworking of the Tridentine.

But both those rites ultimately stem from the pre-schism Western rites. They underwent some non-Orthodox changes after the schism to make them more acceptable to scholastic Roman Catholic and/or Protestant Anglican theological sensibilities, but those changes were undone when the rites were approved by Antioch/ROCOR. As a result, the Anglicans and Roman Catholics can't claim to "own" these liturgies. The term "Tridentine" mass doesn't mean it was invented from scratch at the Council of Trent, after all.
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« Reply #26 on: December 19, 2014, 02:09:26 AM »


I agree with Alpo. I remembering reading this article a while ago about the Georgian Baptists. The article was obviously written by a Protestant because it referred to the Georgian Baptists' "unusual method of contextualizing the gospel".

You have to realize that according to many Protestants, Orthodoxy has a "deficient gospel" and that only Protestants fully know what "the gospel" is. Of course I would strongly disagree with this view, but many Protestants simply take it as a given that Orthodox Christians "don't believe you can really have a personal relationship with Jesus" or think that "you need to go through saints/Mary/the Church to get to God", etc.

Given that fact, the Protestants and Anglicans who do this kind of thing are merely acting in accordance with their own beliefs.

I remember seeing an interview with Penn Jillette in which he explained that he has nothing personally against the Christians (mostly evangelical Protestants) who had repeatedly tried to convert him, even though he's an atheist and has no plans to become a Christian. Penn said that he understands where they're coming from and that he empathizes with them because he knows they're only acting out of love for him (even if, in his view, it's a misguided love).

They sincerely believe that there's a God who will send everyone who doesn't accept Jesus as their personal savior to hell, and that the only way someone can be saved is if they have "the gospel" preached to them by someone else on the street. So, if they didn't try and convert him, it would mean that they hated his guts and wanted to see him burn in hell. As a result, Penn Jillette says he admires the folks for trying to convert him even though he finds it annoying, because he knows it means they do care about him.

I feel the same way about the Georgian Baptists and other similar groups. If they truly believe that Orthodoxy is Christian in name only, and that Orthodox believers therefore need to be "won over to Christ" (the Protestant version of him), and that it's easier to win someone over to Christ if you "contextualize the message" (which in a historically Orthodox country, would meaning adopting incense, vestments, icons, etc), then the fact that they're doing this stuff only means they care about the Orthodox Georgians enough to want to see them "get saved". Of course, they are simply wrong about all of these things, so their concern is ultimately misguided.

Still, it's better than what some Protestant groups in those countries do, which is to simply wall themselves off, never talk to or dialogue with the Orthodox, while privately telling themselves that the Orthodox are all going to hell and that only their sect has the true salvation. I have a lot more respect for the actively proselytizing Protestants than I do for the cultish, elitist, "we're-the-only-ones-saved-but-let's-just-keep-that-to-ourselves" types.

Minnesotan, please read the threads that I linked to earlier. You might then gain a better understanding why Orthodox people regard the appropriation of Orthodox practices in such a dim light.

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« Reply #27 on: December 19, 2014, 07:29:05 AM »

http://youtu.be/R6t2LwAFAFE

As someone familiar with the modified Syriac rites in use among certain Indian Protestants, I find this video interesting in terms of the choices made in adapting an Eastern rite to Protestant belief for the purposes of worship. 

Did not like.
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« Reply #28 on: December 19, 2014, 12:28:08 PM »

On the converse, do you believe is it wrong and disrespectful for Orthodox people to appropriate Anglican and classical Roman rites?

(Not being a gadfly -- an honest question at the end of a year in which the ever annoying buzzwords 'cultural appropriation' have been in my periphery)

Where have Orthodox people appropriated Anglican and classical (whatever that means) Roman rites?
Classical in this case means Tridentine rather than Novus Ordo.

At least in the U.S. the Antiochains' (admittedly small) Western Rite is barely the Anglican Rite redone except where it's some vague reworking of the Tridentine.

But both those rites ultimately stem from the pre-schism Western rites. They underwent some non-Orthodox changes after the schism to make them more acceptable to scholastic Roman Catholic and/or Protestant Anglican theological sensibilities, but those changes were undone when the rites were approved by Antioch/ROCOR. As a result, the Anglicans and Roman Catholics can't claim to "own" these liturgies. The term "Tridentine" mass doesn't mean it was invented from scratch at the Council of Trent, after all.
I’m not sure you should say with a straight face the 1928 BCP is based on pre-schism liturgies.
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« Reply #29 on: December 19, 2014, 01:02:12 PM »

To me, this just seems part and parcel of the larger trend of adopting "Byzantine style" art (including faux icons and the like) in certain theologically liberal Latin and Episcopalian circles in order to appear more (small "c") catholic and foster the idea that we're all part of one Church whether we like and accept that notion or not.  Also, "Eastern Rite Anglicanism" - if it flies - could provide a home for disaffected theologically liberal "Orthodox" Christians who want to kiss the hand of a priestess, take communion in their spouse's Lutheran church whenever they feel like it, et cetera, but still want to "feel Orthodox".
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« Reply #30 on: December 19, 2014, 01:18:48 PM »

Meh, if history is any witness this usage of iconography and 'unbiblical' tradition won't last long.
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« Reply #31 on: December 19, 2014, 01:24:37 PM »

To me, this just seems part and parcel of the larger trend of adopting "Byzantine style" art (including faux icons and the like) in certain theologically liberal Latin and Episcopalian circles in order to appear more (small "c") catholic and foster the idea that we're all part of one Church whether we like and accept that notion or not.  Also, "Eastern Rite Anglicanism" - if it flies - could provide a home for disaffected theologically liberal "Orthodox" Christians who want to kiss the hand of a priestess, take communion in their spouse's Lutheran church whenever they feel like it, et cetera, but still want to "feel Orthodox".
Conversely, it could end up serving as a transitional stage for disaffected Anglicans similar to the many RC to  EC to EO stories we've seen here.

I don't think it's nearly as likely, but eh -- anything is possible.
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THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH
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« Reply #32 on: December 19, 2014, 01:27:16 PM »

Ukrainian Lutherans have already done something like this.

And it's bad.  All Marian references expunged, litanies greatly shortened, very Protestant sounding in the other prayers. 
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« Reply #33 on: December 19, 2014, 02:28:16 PM »

To me, this just seems part and parcel of the larger trend of adopting "Byzantine style" art (including faux icons and the like) in certain theologically liberal Latin and Episcopalian circles in order to appear more (small "c") catholic and foster the idea that we're all part of one Church whether we like and accept that notion or not.  Also, "Eastern Rite Anglicanism" - if it flies - could provide a home for disaffected theologically liberal "Orthodox" Christians who want to kiss the hand of a priestess, take communion in their spouse's Lutheran church whenever they feel like it, et cetera, but still want to "feel Orthodox".
Conversely, it could end up serving as a transitional stage for disaffected Anglicans similar to the many RC to  EC to EO stories we've seen here.

I don't think it's nearly as likely, but eh -- anything is possible.

I suppose so.  A disaffected Anglican would be bound to realize that shifting to a pseudo-Byzantine rite wouldn't erase all in the Anglican communion that was causing his disaffection in the first place.
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« Reply #34 on: December 19, 2014, 09:49:20 PM »

Here is a critique of the modified Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom used by the Ukrainian Lutherans:

http://www.omhksea.org/2013/03/the-divine-liturgy-of-saint-john-chrysostom-used-by-the-ukrainian-lutheran-church-and-its-missing-elements/

A revised Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom is also celebrated in Ukraine by members of the Ukrainian Lutheran Church. This Church was organized originally in 1926 in the “Galicia” region of Ukraine, which was at that time under the government of Poland. The liturgical rites used by the Ukrainian Lutherans reflected their Byzantine tradition. They did not use a Lutheran revision of the Latin Mass in their services, but instead they used a Lutheran revision of the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom.[/b]
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« Reply #35 on: December 19, 2014, 09:52:20 PM »

Ukrainian Lutherans have already done something like this.

And it's bad.  All Marian references expunged, litanies greatly shortened, very Protestant sounding in the other prayers. 

Which is weird considering that Martin Luther was as Marian as any Roman Catholic. He even believed in the Immaculate Conception, if I'm not mistaken. Protestant anti-Marianism was more a Calvinist/Puritan phenomenon than a Lutheran one, at least originally.
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« Reply #36 on: December 19, 2014, 09:58:43 PM »

Ukrainian Lutherans have already done something like this.

And it's bad.  All Marian references expunged, litanies greatly shortened, very Protestant sounding in the other prayers. 

Which is weird considering that Martin Luther was as Marian as any Roman Catholic. He even believed in the Immaculate Conception, if I'm not mistaken. Protestant anti-Marianism was more a Calvinist/Puritan phenomenon than a Lutheran one, at least originally.

Calvin also venerated the Mother of God, and IIRC both he and Zwingli attested to her ever-virginity. Their successors began the anti-Marian phenomenon.
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« Reply #37 on: December 19, 2014, 10:16:59 PM »

Ukrainian Lutherans have already done something like this.

Here it is:

http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/saintsophiaseminary/liturgy.html
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