Author Topic: Who is..?  (Read 2205 times)

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Offline andrewlya

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Re: Who is..?
« Reply #90 on: November 09, 2016, 08:47:04 AM »
Andrew, I hadn't brought this up out of concern you could take it the wrong way, but something about your phrase [not the] True God continues to stand out to me. I know it was ad hoc, and intended to convey something quite abstract -- but I wonder, is it even possible to try to describe Christ as God not God without inadvertently implying that he is a false god? His claims and the claims of the prophets and apostles may simply admit of no other interpretations than that Christ is truly God in every sense, or a false claimant. ... I won't go farther, into whether every non-Christian theogony must ultimately wreck on self-contradictory rocks of some kind ...

I am only stating what Jesus said about His God the Father- that the Father is the Only True God-who can argue with what Jesus said? NOBODY, I would definitely NOT argue with this. Nowhere else in the Bible does it say that there is anyone else is the TRUE GOD except the Father alone.At least Bible does not refer to anyone else as the TRUE GOD, only the Father is as confirmed by Jesus Himself.John 17:3:'Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.'
I believe in ONE God the Father YHWH and I also believe in His Son Lord Yeshua,the Mashiach.

Offline Onesimus

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Re: Who is..?
« Reply #91 on: November 09, 2016, 08:51:38 AM »
We don't need to imagine anything.   It's been revealed to us by the will of the Father, in Christ, through the Holy Spirit....One God, amen.

I was looking for for an honest answer, but I guess it is not something that can be easily admitted by those holding onto a Trinitarian phylosophy.

That is an honest answer.   Apparently, you don't believe in Revelation in the Holy Spirit.   If you did, you'd accept Revelation as an answer.   But you believe in the power of your own mind to understand God.   That's not revelation and faith.   That sir, is philosophy.

Offline Onesimus

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Re: Who is..?
« Reply #92 on: November 09, 2016, 08:52:38 AM »
1)  The Spirit is Eternal. 

Hebrews 9:14 -  "How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death,[a] so that we may serve the living God!

Only God is Eternal.

2)   The Spirit is Omnipresent.

Psalm 139:7-10

Only God is Omnipresent.

3)  The Spirit is Omniscient.

1 Corinthians 2:10-11  - The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.

Only God is Omniscient.

4)   We pray to God...Father, Son & Holy Spirit....One God, Co-eternal.     Read John 14:9-25.  John 15:26.   John 16:23-29.


God is Spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.
John 4:24

This is how we know that we live in him and he in us: He has given us of his Spirit.
1 John 4:13

In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans.
Romans 8:26

The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.”
Romans 8:15

« Last Edit: November 09, 2016, 08:53:50 AM by Onesimus »

Offline andrewlya

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Re: Who is..?
« Reply #93 on: November 09, 2016, 08:59:44 AM »
1)  The Spirit is Eternal. 

Hebrews 9:14 -  "How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death,[a] so that we may serve the living God!

Only God is Eternal.

2)   The Spirit is Omnipresent.

Psalm 139:7-10

Only God is Omnipresent.

3)  The Spirit is Omniscient.

1 Corinthians 2:10-11  - The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.

Only God is Omniscient.

4)   We pray to God...Father, Son & Holy Spirit....One God, Co-eternal.     Read John 14:9-25.  John 15:26.   John 16:23-29.


God is Spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.
John 4:24

This is how we know that we live in him and he in us: He has given us of his Spirit.
1 John 4:13

In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans.
Romans 8:26

The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.”
Romans 8:15

The key word here is "Through". The Holy Spirit is what God is. God is Eternal, so is His Spirit.
I don't see any contradiction of what I believe with this verse you have quoted:'Hebrews 9:14 -  "How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death,[a] so that we may serve the living God!' Jesus offered Himself having the Spirit of God in Him, the Spirit of God is Eternal as God is Eternal and God is the Spirit and God is Holy.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2016, 09:00:42 AM by andrewlya »
I believe in ONE God the Father YHWH and I also believe in His Son Lord Yeshua,the Mashiach.

Offline andrewlya

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Re: Who is..?
« Reply #94 on: November 09, 2016, 09:08:48 AM »
1)  The Spirit is Eternal. 

Hebrews 9:14 -  "How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death,[a] so that we may serve the living God!

Only God is Eternal.

2)   The Spirit is Omnipresent.

Psalm 139:7-10

Only God is Omnipresent.

3)  The Spirit is Omniscient.

1 Corinthians 2:10-11  - The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.

Only God is Omniscient.

4)   We pray to God...Father, Son & Holy Spirit....One God, Co-eternal.     Read John 14:9-25.  John 15:26.   John 16:23-29.


God is Spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.
John 4:24

This is how we know that we live in him and he in us: He has given us of his Spirit.
1 John 4:13

In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans.
Romans 8:26

The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.”
Romans 8:15
This is a great passage that you have quoted me John 16:23-29, it confimrs that Jesus was sent By GOD, BY His Father:

'23 “And in that day you will ask Me nothing. Most assuredly, I say to you, whatever you ask the Father in My name He will give you. 24 Until now you have asked nothing in My name. Ask, and you will receive, that your joy may be full.
Jesus Christ Has Overcome the World

25 “These things I have spoken to you in figurative language; but the time is coming when I will no longer speak to you in figurative language, but I will tell you plainly about the Father. 26 In that day you will ask in My name, and I do not say to you that I shall pray the Father for you; 27 for the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me, and have believed that I came forth from God. 28 I came forth from the Father and have come into the world. Again, I leave the world and go to the Father.”

29 His disciples said to Him, “See, now You are speaking plainly, and using no figure of speech! '
I believe in ONE God the Father YHWH and I also believe in His Son Lord Yeshua,the Mashiach.

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Who is..?
« Reply #95 on: November 09, 2016, 11:34:21 AM »
When Jesus was praying to the Father, both being God, does it not sound strange to think that God was praying to God? Father and Son are two distinct persons...

Where does it say in the Bible that the Holy Spirit is God and to be worshiped?

It's not strange at all.  Is there not a bond of eternal Love between the Father and the Son?  St. Paul said it:  "being in the form of God, did not exploit His equality with God, but took the form of a slave."  That form did things you and I do so that He can exalt us into His name, the name of God.

And that name is shared with the Holy Spirit (Mark 16).

Let me ask you this Andrew.  Who got Jesus to rise from the dead?

God the Father raised Jesus :'But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him.' Acts 2:24.


Andrew, like I said, let's concentrate on one thing at at time.  You throwing questions shows a bit of impatience on your part.  You didn't even address my argument concerning the name of God.  If you can't get past this, your other questions become nothing more than fishing.

You said correctly that God the Father raised Jesus from the dead.  But you also ignored the fact that Jesus also raised Himself from the dead (John 2:19).  You also ignored the fact that the Holy Spirit raised Jesus from the dead (Romans 8:11).  As St. Paul prays, "Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence? If I ascend into heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in hell, behold, You are there." (Psalm 139)

So the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit were all involved in the resurrection.  If St. Paul is right about saying this about the Spirit, that no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit (1 Cor. 2:11), then the Spirit of God is equally God.  How can anyone else dare say they know the thoughts of God except God Himself?
The Holy Spirit is the Nature of God, it is what God is-God is Spirit and God is Holy.The Holy Spirit also PROCEEDS from the Father God and can empower people to speak and do things that God wants them/us to do or say- so the Holy Spirit is God's Nature and His Power.

"But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you."
-‭‭John‬ ‭14:26‬‬

Two things:

1.  You continue to ignore the discussion on the "name of Jesus" and the "name of God".  Is the name of God an "It".  Is there 2 Names, one for Jesus and one for the Father? Is that a "Them"?  And if you believe the Spirit is the nature and power of God, how is it that the nature of God can be send in the name of a human being who does not have the same nature?

2.  If the Holy Spirit is a nature, is it an "It". How can "It" be a "Comforter" or "Helper" or "He"?
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Who is..?
« Reply #96 on: November 09, 2016, 11:37:44 AM »
Or consider the challenge of Jesus to the Pharisees:

41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42 saying, “What do you think about the Christ? Whose Son is He?”

They said to Him, “The Son of David.”

43 He said to them, “How then does David in the Spirit call Him ‘Lord,’ saying:

44 ‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool”’? (Psalm 110:1)
45 If David then calls Him ‘Lord,’ how is He his Son?” 46 And no one was able to answer Him a word, nor from that day on did anyone dare question Him anymore.
(Matthew 22)

Now we know not only the Pharisees could not answer the question of how Jesus can be both Lord and Son of David, but even Andrew himself joins their camp.  ;)
I am not joining their camp because I accept that Jesus is our Lord and our Messiah, the Son of the Living God.

How can you believe Jesus is Lord if only the one God is Lord? You claim to confess the Shema?  "Hear o Israel THE LORD YOUR GOD IS ONE."

How can you confess Jesus as Lord if you only believe in one Lord?
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Who is..?
« Reply #97 on: November 09, 2016, 11:43:43 AM »
We don't need to imagine anything.   It's been revealed to us by the will of the Father, in Christ, through the Holy Spirit....One God, amen.

I was looking for for an honest answer, but I guess it is not something that can be easily admitted by those holding onto a Trinitarian phylosophy.

Actually, the answers are all honest.  We are humble enough to know that our minds cannot comprehend the mystery of Godliness. So we obey the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.  If Christ teaches us to worship in the NAME of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, it is not us who hold a philosophy, but you who ignore the Truth right in your face, and you claim to think you can know God better than God Himself!
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Who is..?
« Reply #98 on: November 09, 2016, 11:48:28 AM »
Andrew, I hadn't brought this up out of concern you could take it the wrong way, but something about your phrase [not the] True God continues to stand out to me. I know it was ad hoc, and intended to convey something quite abstract -- but I wonder, is it even possible to try to describe Christ as God not God without inadvertently implying that he is a false god? His claims and the claims of the prophets and apostles may simply admit of no other interpretations than that Christ is truly God in every sense, or a false claimant. ... I won't go farther, into whether every non-Christian theogony must ultimately wreck on self-contradictory rocks of some kind ...

I am only stating what Jesus said about His God the Father- that the Father is the Only True God-who can argue with what Jesus said? NOBODY, I would definitely NOT argue with this. Nowhere else in the Bible does it say that there is anyone else is the TRUE GOD except the Father alone.At least Bible does not refer to anyone else as the TRUE GOD, only the Father is as confirmed by Jesus Himself.John 17:3:'Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.'

This is eternal life, that they know:
1.  You, the only True God
2. AND JESUS CHRIST WHOM YOU SENT

How can Jesus make Himself equally the knowledge of eternal life as the Father if He is a lesser Lord?
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Who is..?
« Reply #99 on: November 09, 2016, 11:52:36 AM »
1)  The Spirit is Eternal. 

Hebrews 9:14 -  "How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death,[a] so that we may serve the living God!

Only God is Eternal.

2)   The Spirit is Omnipresent.

Psalm 139:7-10

Only God is Omnipresent.

3)  The Spirit is Omniscient.

1 Corinthians 2:10-11  - The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.

Only God is Omniscient.

4)   We pray to God...Father, Son & Holy Spirit....One God, Co-eternal.     Read John 14:9-25.  John 15:26.   John 16:23-29.


God is Spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.
John 4:24

This is how we know that we live in him and he in us: He has given us of his Spirit.
1 John 4:13

In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans.
Romans 8:26

The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.”
Romans 8:15

The key word here is "Through". The Holy Spirit is what God is. God is Eternal, so is His Spirit.
I don't see any contradiction of what I believe with this verse you have quoted:'Hebrews 9:14 -  "How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death,[a] so that we may serve the living God!' Jesus offered Himself having the Spirit of God in Him, the Spirit of God is Eternal as God is Eternal and God is the Spirit and God is Holy.

When Jesus was praying to the Father, both being God, does it not sound strange to think that God was praying to God? Father and Son are two distinct persons...

Where does it say in the Bible that the Holy Spirit is God and to be worshiped?

It's not strange at all.  Is there not a bond of eternal Love between the Father and the Son?  St. Paul said it:  "being in the form of God, did not exploit His equality with God, but took the form of a slave."  That form did things you and I do so that He can exalt us into His name, the name of God.

And that name is shared with the Holy Spirit (Mark 16).

Let me ask you this Andrew.  Who got Jesus to rise from the dead?

God the Father raised Jesus :'But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him.' Acts 2:24.


Andrew, like I said, let's concentrate on one thing at at time.  You throwing questions shows a bit of impatience on your part.  You didn't even address my argument concerning the name of God.  If you can't get past this, your other questions become nothing more than fishing.

You said correctly that God the Father raised Jesus from the dead.  But you also ignored the fact that Jesus also raised Himself from the dead (John 2:19).  You also ignored the fact that the Holy Spirit raised Jesus from the dead (Romans 8:11).  As St. Paul prays, "Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence? If I ascend into heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in hell, behold, You are there." (Psalm 139)

So the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit were all involved in the resurrection.  If St. Paul is right about saying this about the Spirit, that no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit (1 Cor. 2:11), then the Spirit of God is equally God.  How can anyone else dare say they know the thoughts of God except God Himself?
The Holy Spirit is the Nature of God, it is what God is-God is Spirit and God is Holy.The Holy Spirit also PROCEEDS from the Father God and can empower people to speak and do things that God wants them/us to do or say- so the Holy Spirit is God's Nature and His Power.

"But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you."
-‭‭John‬ ‭14:26‬‬

Two things:

1.  You continue to ignore the discussion on the "name of Jesus" and the "name of God".  Is the name of God an "It".  Is there 2 Names, one for Jesus and one for the Father? Is that a "Them"?  And if you believe the Spirit is the nature and power of God, how is it that the nature of God can be send in the name of a human being who does not have the same nature?

2.  If the Holy Spirit is a nature, is it an "It". How can "It" be a "Comforter" or "Helper" or "He"?


3.  If the Holy Spirit is the Father, how could the Father send Himself in the name of Jesus?
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline biro

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Re: Who is..?
« Reply #100 on: November 09, 2016, 12:57:12 PM »
Quote boxes gettin' massive. ;)
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Offline biro

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Re: Who is..?
« Reply #101 on: November 09, 2016, 01:00:47 PM »
Jesus said to go forth and baptize all nations in the name of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit.

Why would He do this if God is unitarian? It would make no sense.

Plus, sometimes Andrew believes God is unitarian and at other times binary.

Makes no sense.
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Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Who is..?
« Reply #102 on: November 09, 2016, 01:01:23 PM »
How can you believe Jesus is Lord if only the one God is Lord? You claim to confess the Shema?  "Hear o Israel THE LORD YOUR GOD IS ONE."

How can you confess Jesus as Lord if you only believe in one Lord?
Wow, I had never thought this way about the Shema...
"He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty." (Psalm 90:1)

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Offline Ainnir

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Re: Who is..?
« Reply #103 on: November 10, 2016, 02:15:20 PM »
I'm not sure Andrew will change his mind, but these answers to his questions sure are crystallizing things in mine at a most opportune time, so from me, thank you.  :)

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Who is..?
« Reply #104 on: November 10, 2016, 02:40:14 PM »
I don't expect someone overnight to be convinced by these words.  Paul has planted and Apollos watered, but God gave the increase.

I say Glory to God!
« Last Edit: November 10, 2016, 02:45:11 PM by minasoliman »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Who is..?
« Reply #105 on: November 12, 2016, 01:38:59 AM »
I hesitate to give analogies, but (and I sometimes feel this youtube narrator frequents our fora here) I think this video demonstrates why I have faith in the One God in three persons and not rely on my own limited human mind:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0G2S5ziDcO0&t=1s

And if you want to watch a prerequisite video, here's an example of Euclidean geometrical explanation of four spatial dimensions:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rG6aIVGquOg

If you love mathematics and geometry, enjoy the second video first, and then listen to the theology video that I posted first.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2016, 01:39:16 AM by minasoliman »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Ainnir

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Re: Who is..?
« Reply #106 on: November 12, 2016, 01:59:27 PM »
Those are awesome!!  Thanks for sharing them.  :)

Offline Onesimus

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Re: Who is..?
« Reply #107 on: November 12, 2016, 02:26:47 PM »
For those interested in history, I've always been fond of the Syriac "debate" or "apology" of the "Nestorian" Patriarch Timothy I with caliph Al-Mahdi. 

In it Timothy gives explanations defending the MYSTERY of the Godhead, and His unapproachable nature to the mind of man, incarnated in order to condescend to, unite to, save and deify humanity.

A small excerpt below...much more good stuff in there.

http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/timothy_i_apology_01_text.htm

Quote
And our King said to me: "Do you believe in Father, Son and Holy Spirit?"—And I answered: "I worship them and believe in them."—Then our King said: "You, therefore, believe in three Gods?"—And I replied to our King: "The belief in the above three names, consists in the belief in three Persons, and the belief in these three Persons consists in the belief in one God. The belief in the above three names, consists therefore in the belief in one God. We believe in Father, Son and Holy Spirit as one God. So Jesus Christ taught us, and so we have learnt from the revelation of the books of the prophets. As our God-loving King is one King with his word and his spirit, and not three Kings, and as no one is able to distinguish him, his word and his spirit from himself and no one calls him King independently of his word and his spirit, so also God is one God with His Word and His Spirit, and not three Gods, because the Word and the Spirit of God are inseparable from Him. And as the sun with its light and its heat is not called three suns but one sun, so also God with His Word and His Spirit is not three Gods but is and is called one God."

Then the King said to me: "What is my word? It is something that vanishes and disappears."—And I replied to him: "As God does not resemble in His nature the Commander of the Faithful, so also the Word and the Spirit of God do not resemble those of the Commander of the Faithful. We men sometimes exist and sometimes do not exist because we have a beginning and an end, as we are created. This is the case also with our word and our spirit, which at one time exist, and at another cease to exist, and have a beginning and an end. God, however, who is higher and more exalted than all is not like us in this respect, but He exists divinely and eternally, and there was no time in which He was not, nor will there be a time in which He will not be. He has no beginning and no end, because He is not created. |23  In the same way are His Word and His Spirit, who exist divinely and eternally, that is to say without beginning and without end, as God with God, without any separation."


Offline Ainnir

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Re: Who is..?
« Reply #108 on: November 15, 2016, 08:23:26 AM »
I printed this out, Onesimus.  Thanks for sharing!  :)

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Re: Who is..?
« Reply #109 on: December 09, 2016, 06:24:03 PM »
You guys seem to be missing one of the key points here, you chose to listen to men's teachings and their pagan traditions and let it take precendence over the teachings of the Bible.

Early Jews believed that the Heavenly Father is their God in the Old Testament:'Isaiah 64:8 But now, O Lord, you are our Father; we are the clay, and you are our potter; we are all the work of your hand.' and in the New Testament Lord Jesus confirms that the Father of Jews and His Father is their God and His God,too:''Yeshua said to them, “If I glorify Myself, My glory is nothing; it is my Father Who glorifies Me. He of Whom you say, 'He is our GOD.' “John 8:54.

Jesus said that the Father is the Only True GOD in John 17:3. There is no verse that says that anyone else is the True God except the Father.
I believe in ONE God the Father YHWH and I also believe in His Son Lord Yeshua,the Mashiach.

Offline Onesimus

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Re: Who is..?
« Reply #110 on: December 09, 2016, 06:26:14 PM »
Nope.   You're wrong.   Plain and simple.   It is you who do that which you accuse others of.   

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Re: Who is..?
« Reply #111 on: December 09, 2016, 06:31:04 PM »
I don't expect someone overnight to be convinced by these words.  Paul has planted and Apollos watered, but God gave the increase.

I say Glory to God!

Mina, who is the speaker here?
'Remember what happened long ago,for I am God, and there is no other;I am God, and no one is like Me'. Isaiah 46:9

‘Now see that I, even I, am He, And there is no God besides Me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; Nor is there any who can deliver from My hand.- Deuteronomy 32:39

'Then you will know that I am in Israel, that I am the LORD your God, and that there is no other; never again will my people be shamed.'-Joel 2:27

'This is what the LORD says-- your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb: I am the LORD, the Maker of all things, who stretches out the heavens, Who spreads out the earth by Myself'Isaiah 44:24

These are all singular pronounces in these verses.So who is the speaker here, is it the Father, or is it the Son, or is it the Holy Spirit that speaks here?

I believe in ONE God the Father YHWH and I also believe in His Son Lord Yeshua,the Mashiach.

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Re: Who is..?
« Reply #112 on: December 09, 2016, 06:33:48 PM »
Nope.   You're wrong.   Plain and simple.   It is you who do that which you accuse others of.
I think you may not be familiar with the history of the early Christianity and how it was infuenced by Greek pagan phylosophies.

Early Christianity arose as a movement within Second Temple Judaism, following the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth. With a missionary commitment to both Jews and Gentiles (non-Jews), Christianity rapidly spread into the greater Roman Empire and beyond. The early Christianity was developing in the Roman Empire, where many religions that were practiced were mainly paganism. Greek philosophy played an important part too in many people’s outlooks on lives. Here, Christianity came into contact with the dominant Pagan religions. By the 2nd century, many Christians were converts from Paganism. These conflicts are recorded in the works of the early Christian writers such as Justin Martyr as well as hostile reports by writers including Tacitus and Suetonius.
Paganism is commonly used to refer to different, largely unconnected religions from the time period, such as the Greco-Roman religions of the Roman Empire, including the Roman imperial cult, the various mystery religions and Gnosticism, and more localised ethnic religions practiced both inside and outside the Empire. During the Middle Ages, the term was also adapted to refer to religions practiced outside the former Roman Empire, such as Germanic paganism and Slavic paganism.
Trinitarianism is a form of polytheism. Since many of the early Christians were converts from pagan religions, they were polytheisticly biased and were more open to a belief of the “Triune God” than the true Abrahamic Monotheistic Jews would have been who worshiped a singular person God. For the new converts of pagan background it was easier to accept polytheistic doctrines as polytheism was nothing new to them at the time. As the Christianity was growing they had to adapt to Judaistic monotheism, thus had to reconcile the 3 persons into One God one way or another.
Christianity originated in the Roman province of Judaea, a predominantly Jewish society, with traditional philosophies distinct from the Greek thought which was dominant in the Roman Empire at the time. The conflict between the two modes of thought is recorded in the Christian scriptures, in Paul's encounters with Epicurean and Stoic philosophers mentioned in Acts,  his diatribe against Greek philosophy in 1st Corinthians,[4] and his warning against vain philosophy in Colossians 2:8.[5]
One early Christian writer of the 2nd and early 3rd century, Clement of Alexandria, demonstrated the assimilation of Greek thought in writing: "Philosophy has been given to the Greeks as their own kind of Covenant, their foundation for the philosophy of Christ... the philosophy of the Greeks... contains the basic elements of that genuine and perfect knowledge which is higher than human... even upon those spiritual objects." (Miscellanies 6. 8 ) [ 6]
As Christianity spread throughout the Greek world, an increasing number of church leaders were educated in Greek philosophy. The dominant philosophical traditions of the Greco-Roman world at the time were Stoicism, Platonism, and Epicureanism. Stoicism and, particularly, Platonism were readily incorporated into Christian ethics and Christian theology. Christian assimilation of Greek philosophy was anticipated by Philo and other Greek-speaking Alexandrian Jews. Philo's blend of Judaism, Platonism, and Stoicism strongly influenced Christian Alexandrian writers like Origen and Clement of Alexandria, as well as, in the Latin world, Ambrose of Milan.
The nature of Christ was a topic of numerous debates in the early years of Christianity and the philosophy of ancient Greece played a big role in confusing the monotheistic Christianity with polytheistic paganism. Many early Christians theologians seemed to have struggled to understand numerous Biblical verses in relation to the monotheistic nature of God in the Bible. They had misinterpreted the Bible attempting to determine who Christ is. Their struggle to provide an exegesis had led many to resort to the ideas of pagan philosophies in order to fill in the gaps of their lack of understanding of the monotheistic Biblical scripture. Many early Christians were former pagan converts, the Romans and the Greeks especially, whose polytheistic view would not be an obstacle in interpreting the Bible to establish their definition of God. Although, many early Christian theologians seemingly had polytheistic bias, others were closer to the truth and I will cover later on.
Many historians and religious scholars attest to the influence of Greek or Platonic philosophy in the development and acceptance of the Trinity doctrine in the fourth century. Friedrich Nietzsche, amongst other scholars, called Christianity, "Platonism for the people."[7] Plato's influence on Christian thought is often thought to be mediated by his major influence on Saint Augustine of Hippo, also known as Saint Augustine, Saint Austin, Blessed Augustine, and the Doctor of Grace, is one of the most important philosophers and theologians in the history of Christianity.
Christianity is the West’s most important worldview. Plato was the West’s most important philosopher. But the two have far more in common than just importance—in fact, Plato helped set the intellectual stage for the early church. The famous Greek philosopher Plato (ca. 429-347 B.C.) believed in a divine triad of “God, the ideas, [and] the World-Spirit,” though he “nowhere explained or harmonised this triad” (Charles Bigg, Christian Platonists of Alexandria, 1886, p. 249).

Dean Inge, the famous professor of divinity, writes that:
“Platonism is part of the vital structure of Christian theology . . . . [If people would read Plotinus, who worked to reconcile Platonism with Scripture,] they would understand better the real continuity between the old culture and the new religion... The Galilean Gospel, as it proceeded from the lips of Jesus, was doubtless unaffected by Greek philosophy . . . . But [early Christianity] from its very beginning was formed by a confluence of Jewish and Hellenic religious ideas.”
This idea—Plato as important precursor to Christianity—is far from new.
Let’s look at a few thinkers who’ve found Plato important:
The above mentioned Augustine of Hippo, also known as Saint Augustine, Saint Austin, Blessed Augustine, whose writings influenced the development of Western Christianity and Western philosophy.
“The utterance of Plato, the most pure and bright in all philosophy, scattering the clouds of error . . .”
“I found that whatever truth I had read [in the Platonists] was [in the writings of Paul] combined with the exaltation of thy grace.”
Eusebius of Caesarea: “[Plato is] the only Greek who has attained the porch of (Christian) truth.”
Clement of Alexandria: “. . . before the advent of the Lord, philosophy was necessary to the Greeks for righteousness. And now it becomes conducive to piety; being a kind of preparatory training to those who attain to faith . . . . For God is the cause of all good things, but of some primarily, as of the Old and New Testaments; and of others by consequence, as philosophy. Perchance, too, philosophy was given to the Greeks directly and primarily . . . . For [philosophy] was a schoolmaster to bring ‘the Hellenic mind . . . to Christ.’ Philosophy, therefore, was a preparation, paving the way for him who is perfected in Christ.”
 
Later Greek thinkers refined Plato’s concepts into what they referred to as three “substances”—the supreme God or “the One,” from which came “mind” or “thought” and a “spirit” or “soul.” In their thinking, all were different divine “substances” or aspects of the same God. These were different divine aspects of that same supreme good—distinct and yet unified as one.
Such metaphysical thinking was common among the intelligentsia of the Greek world and carried over into the thinking of the Roman world of the New Testament period and succeeding centuries. As the last of the apostles began to die off, some of this metaphysical thinking began to affect and infiltrate the early Church—primarily through those who had already begun to compromise with paganism.
As Bible scholars John McClintock and James Strong explain: “Towards the end of the 1st century, and during the 2d, many learned men came over both from Judaism and paganism to Christianity. These brought with them into the Christian schools of theology their Platonic ideas and phraseology” ( Cyclopaedia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature, 1891, Vol. 10, “Trinity,” p. 553).
The true Church largely resisted such infiltration and held firm to the teaching of the apostles, drawing their doctrine from the writings of the apostles and “the Holy Scriptures [the books of the Old Testament] which are able to make you wise for salvation” (2 Timothy 3:15).
Two distinct threads of Christianity split and developed separately—one true to the plain and simple teachings of the Bible and the other increasingly compromised with pagan thought and practices adopted from the Greco-Roman world.
Thus, as debate swelled over the nature of God in the fourth century leading to the Councils of Nicaea and Constantinople, it was no longer a debate between biblical truth and error. Both sides in the debate had been seriously compromised by their acceptance of unbiblical philosophical ideas.
Many of the church leaders who formulated the doctrine of the Trinity were steeped in Greek and Platonic philosophy, and this influenced their religious views and teaching. The language they used in describing and defining the Trinity is, in fact, taken directly from Platonic and Greek philosophy. The word Trinity itself is neither biblical nor Christian. Rather, the Platonic term trias, from the word for three, was Latinized as Trinity— the latter giving us the English word Trinity.
“The Alexandria catechetical school, which revered Clement of Alexandria and Origen, the greatest theologian of the Greek Church, as its heads, applied the allegorical method to the explanation of Scripture. Its thought was influenced by Plato: its strong point was [pagan] theological speculations. Athanasius and the three Cappadocians [the men whose Trinitarian views were adopted by the Catholic Church at the Councils of Nicaea and Constantinople] had been included among its members” (Hubert Jedin, Ecumenical Councils of the Catholic Church: an Historical Outline, 1960, p. 28).
“The doctrines of the Logos [i.e., the “Word,” a designation for Christ in John 1] and the Trinity received their shape from Greek Fathers, who . . . were much influenced, directly or indirectly, by the Platonic philosophy . . . That errors and corruptions crept into the Church from this source can not be denied” ( The New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge, Samuel Macauley Jackson, editor, 1911, Vol. 9, p. 91).
The preface to historian Edward Gibbons’ History of Christianity sums up the Greek influence on the adoption of the Trinity doctrine by stating: “If Paganism was conquered by Christianity, it is equally true that Christianity was corrupted by Paganism. The pure Deism [basic religion, in this context] of the first Christians … was changed, by the Church of Rome, into the incomprehensible dogma of the trinity. Many of the pagan tenets, invented by the Egyptians and idealized by Plato, were retained as being worthy of belief” (1883, p. xvi). (See “How Ancient Trinitarian Gods Influenced Adoption of the Trinity,” beginning on page 18.)
The link between Plato’s teachings and the Trinity as adopted by the Catholic Church centuries later is so strong that Edward Gibbon, in his masterwork The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, referred to Plato as “the Athenian sage, who had thus marvelously anticipated one of the most surprising discoveries of the Christian revelation” —the Trinity (1890, Vol. 1, p. 574).
Thus we see that the doctrine of the Trinity owes far less to the Bible than it does to the metaphysical speculations of Plato and other pagan Greek philosophers. No wonder the apostle Paul warns us in Colossians 2:8 to beware of “hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ”!
 
 
 

From the days of the Early Church until the present, the (Trinitarian Eastern) Orthodox Church has made positive selective use of ancient Greek philosophy, particularly Socrates, Plato, Aristotle and the Stoics.[2] The most important principle to keep in mind is that early Christianity developed in a Greek milieu and a common vocabulary was used in philosophical, spiritual and theological writing. However, the meanings of words sometimes evolved along different lines. In other cases, philosophical ideas and concepts were sometimes adapted and changed by Christian writers. Any exegetical endeavour trying to unravel the influence of Neo-Platonic thought on Christian theology needs to keep these principles in mind. One should also note that philosophy was used quite differently in the Eastern and Western theological traditions.
The writings attributed to Dionysius the Areopagite are among the most enigmatic works of late antiquity. Byzantine scholars such as Gregory Palamas cited Dionysius especially in matters of Mystical Theology such as theoria, the divine energies and the unknowability of God.[4] At present, modern theologians and philosophers[5] are still debating whether Dionysius was a Neo-Platonist with Christian influences or a Christian writer with Neo-Platonic influences. Among Orthodox scholars, the later view seems to be shared by such writers as Andrew Louth[6] and Vladimir Lossky.[7] However, other Orthodox scholars such as John Meyendorff believe that the Neo-Platonism of Dionysius exerted both positive and negative influences on Orthodox theology.[8] Meyendorff maintains that Dionysius has led to some confusion in the areas of liturgical and ecclesiological formulations.
Julian (born c. 331 – died June 26, 363), was a Roman Emperor (361–363) of the Constantinian dynasty. He was the last pagan Roman Emperor. The legalisation of Christianity by the Emperor Constantine had led to its widespread success within the Eastern Roman Empire and, to a lesser extent, the Western Roman Empire. Julian attempted to counteract Christianity by restoring and reforming pagan worship, using the Neoplatonism developed by Iamblichus to unify Hellenic worship in the empire.
Is God an Essence?
Many Trinitarian Christian will explain the formula of Trinity by saying that God is an Essence, or a Being, consisting of the three Persons the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. This is strikingly similar to the philosophy of Aristotle, Plato and Neoplatonism the aforementioned Greek philosophers.
Neoplatonism is generally a metaphysical and epistemological philosophy. Neoplatonism is a form of idealistic monism combined with elements of polytheism. It is a modern term[1] used to designate a tradition of philosophy that arose in the 3rd century AD and persisted until shortly after the closing of the Platonic Academy in Athens in AD 529 by Justinian I. Neoplatonists were heavily influenced by Plato, but also by the Platonic tradition that thrived during the six centuries which separated the first of the Neoplatonists from Plato. The earliest Christian philosophers, such as Justin and Athenagoras, who attempted to connect Christianity with Platonism, and the Christian Gnostics of Alexandria, especially Valentinus and the followers of Basilides, also mirrored elements of Neoplatonism, albeit without its rigorous self-consistency.
Certain central tenets of Neoplatonism served as a philosophical interim for the Christian theologian Augustine of Hippo on his journey from dualistic Manichaeism to Christianity. As a Manichee, Augustine had held that God is made of matter; when he became a Neoplatonist, he changed his views on these things. As a Neoplatonist, and later a Christian, Augustine believed that God is not material. When writing his treatise 'On True Religion' several years after his 387 baptism, Augustine's Christianity was still tempered by Neoplatonism.
Many other Christians were influenced by Neoplatonism, especially in their identifying the Neoplatonic One, or God, with Yahweh. The most influential of these would be Origen, the pupil of Ammonius Saccas and the fifth-century author known as Pseudo-Dionysius the Areopagite, (whose works were translated by John Scotus in the 9th century for the West) and proved significant for both the Eastern Orthodox and Western branches of Christianity. Neoplatonism also had links with Gnosticism, which Plotinus rebuked in his ninth tractate of the second Enneads: "Against Those That Affirm The Creator of The Cosmos and The Cosmos Itself to Be Evil" (generally known as "Against The Gnostics").
So, what is an Essence? In philosophy, essence is the attribute or set of attributes that make an entity or substance what it fundamentally is, and which it has by necessity, and which without it loses its identity.
Essence as the concept originates with Aristotle, who used the Greek expression to ti ên einai (τὸ τί ἦν εἶναι,[1] literally meaning "the what it was to be" and corresponding to the scholastic term quiddity). In the history of Western thought, essence has often served as a vehicle for doctrines that tend to individuate different forms of existence as well as different identity conditions for objects and properties; in this logical meaning, the concept has given a strong theoretical and common-sense basis to the whole family of logical theories based on the "possible worlds" analogy set up by Leibniz and developed in the intensional logic from Carnap to Kripke, which was later challenged by "extensionalist" philosophers such as Quine.
So, in his dialogues Plato suggests that concrete beings acquire their essence through their relations to "Forms"—abstract universals logically or ontologically separate from the objects of sense perception.
The term "Logos" was interpreted variously in neoplatonism. Plotinus refers to Thales[32] in interpreting Logos as the principle of meditation, the interrelationship between the Hypostases[33] (Soul, Spirit (nous) and the 'One').
 Aristotle continues to influence Christian theology, especially the Neoplatonism of the Early Church, and the scholastic tradition of the Roman Catholic Church.
With the loss of the study of ancient Greek in the early medieval Latin West, Aristotle was practically unknown there from c. AD 600 to c. 1100 except through the Latin translation of the Organon made by Boethius. In the twelfth and thirteenth centuries, interest in Aristotle revived and Latin Christians had translations made, from the original Greek, such as those by James of Venice and William of Moerbeke.
After Thomas Aquinas wrote his theology, working from Moerbeke's translations, the demand for Aristotle's writings grew and the Greek manuscripts returned to the West, stimulating a revival of Aristotelianism in Europe that continued into the Renaissance.[115] Aristotle is referred to as "The Philosopher" by Scholastic thinkers such as Thomas Aquinas (see Summa Theologica, Part I, Question 3, etc.). These thinkers blended Aristotelian philosophy with Christianity, bringing the thought of Ancient Greece into the Middle Ages.
 Due to their belief being grounded in Platonic thought, the Neoplatonists rejected Gnosticism's vilification of Plato's demiurge, the creator of the material world or cosmos discussed in the Timaeus. Neoplatonism has been referred to as orthodox Platonic philosophy by scholars like Professor John D. Turner; this reference may be due, in part, to Plotinus' attempt to refute certain interpretations of Platonic philosophy, through his Enneads. Plotinus believed the followers of Gnosticism had corrupted the original teachings of Plato and often argued against likes of Valentinus who, according to Plotinus, had given rise to doctrines of dogmatic theology with ideas such as that the Spirit of Christ was brought forth by a conscious god after the fall from Pleroma. According to Plotinus, The One is not a conscious god with intent nor a godhead nor a conditioned existing entity of any kind, rather a requisite principle of totality which is also the source of ultimate wisdom.[47]
Despite the influence of this pagan philosophy had on Christianity, Justinian I would hurt neoplatonism later by ordering the closure of the refounded School of Athens.[48] After the closure, Neoplatonic and or secular philosophical studies continued in publicly funded schools in Alexandria. In the early seventh century, the Neoplatonist Stephanus brought this Alexandrian tradition to Constantinople, where it would remain influential, albeit as a form of secular education.[49] The university maintained an active philosophical tradition of Platonism and Aristotelianism, with the former being the longest unbroken Platonic school, running for close to two millennia until the 15th century[49]
Neoplatonism ostensibly survived in the Eastern Christian Church as an independent tradition and was reintroduced to the West by Plethon, an avowed pagan and opponent of the Byzantine Church, inasmuch as the latter, under Western scholastic influence, relied heavily upon Aristotelian methodology. Plethon's Platonic revival, following the Council of Florence (1438–1439), largely accounts for the renewed interest in Platonic philosophy which accompanied the Renaissance.
John Burnet (1892) noted[50]: The Neoplatonists were quite justified in regarding themselves as the spiritual heirs of Pythagoras; and, in their hands, philosophy ceased to exist as such, and became theology. And this tendency was at work all along; hardly a single Greek philosopher was wholly uninfluenced by it. Perhaps Aristotle might seem to be an exception; but it is probable that, if we still possessed a few such "exoteric" works as the Protreptikos in their entirety, we should find that the enthusiastic words in which he speaks of the "blessed life" in the Metaphysics and in the Ethics (Nicomachean Ethics) were less isolated outbursts of feeling than they appear now. In later days, Apollonios of Tyana showed in practice what this sort of thing must ultimately lead to. The theurgy and thaumaturgy of the late Greek schools were only the fruit of the seed sown by the generation which immediately preceded the Persian War.
Apostle Paul having been trying to convert early Greeks to Christianity saw that philosophy of mere men is not the way forward for a believer, especially when it came to theology: Colossians 2:8: ’ See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2016, 06:35:25 PM by andrewlya »
I believe in ONE God the Father YHWH and I also believe in His Son Lord Yeshua,the Mashiach.

Offline andrewlya

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Re: Who is..?
« Reply #113 on: December 09, 2016, 06:37:58 PM »
Jesus said to go forth and baptize all nations in the name of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit.

Why would He do this if God is unitarian? It would make no sense.

Plus, sometimes Andrew believes God is unitarian and at other times binary.

Makes no sense.
I don't have an issue with what Jesus said about baptising in the name of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit. This verse doesn't say they are all God.It doesn't prove the worship of the Trinity.
I believe God is ONE, not three.

I believe in ONE God the Father YHWH and I also believe in His Son Lord Yeshua,the Mashiach.

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Re: Who is..?
« Reply #114 on: December 09, 2016, 06:39:38 PM »
1)  The Spirit is Eternal. 

Hebrews 9:14 -  "How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death,[a] so that we may serve the living God!

Only God is Eternal.

2)   The Spirit is Omnipresent.

Psalm 139:7-10

Only God is Omnipresent.

3)  The Spirit is Omniscient.

1 Corinthians 2:10-11  - The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.

Only God is Omniscient.

4)   We pray to God...Father, Son & Holy Spirit....One God, Co-eternal.     Read John 14:9-25.  John 15:26.   John 16:23-29.


God is Spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.
John 4:24

This is how we know that we live in him and he in us: He has given us of his Spirit.
1 John 4:13

In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans.
Romans 8:26

The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.”
Romans 8:15

The key word here is "Through". The Holy Spirit is what God is. God is Eternal, so is His Spirit.
I don't see any contradiction of what I believe with this verse you have quoted:'Hebrews 9:14 -  "How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death,[a] so that we may serve the living God!' Jesus offered Himself having the Spirit of God in Him, the Spirit of God is Eternal as God is Eternal and God is the Spirit and God is Holy.

When Jesus was praying to the Father, both being God, does it not sound strange to think that God was praying to God? Father and Son are two distinct persons...

Where does it say in the Bible that the Holy Spirit is God and to be worshiped?

It's not strange at all.  Is there not a bond of eternal Love between the Father and the Son?  St. Paul said it:  "being in the form of God, did not exploit His equality with God, but took the form of a slave."  That form did things you and I do so that He can exalt us into His name, the name of God.

And that name is shared with the Holy Spirit (Mark 16).

Let me ask you this Andrew.  Who got Jesus to rise from the dead?

God the Father raised Jesus :'But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him.' Acts 2:24.


Andrew, like I said, let's concentrate on one thing at at time.  You throwing questions shows a bit of impatience on your part.  You didn't even address my argument concerning the name of God.  If you can't get past this, your other questions become nothing more than fishing.

You said correctly that God the Father raised Jesus from the dead.  But you also ignored the fact that Jesus also raised Himself from the dead (John 2:19).  You also ignored the fact that the Holy Spirit raised Jesus from the dead (Romans 8:11).  As St. Paul prays, "Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence? If I ascend into heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in hell, behold, You are there." (Psalm 139)

So the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit were all involved in the resurrection.  If St. Paul is right about saying this about the Spirit, that no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit (1 Cor. 2:11), then the Spirit of God is equally God.  How can anyone else dare say they know the thoughts of God except God Himself?
The Holy Spirit is the Nature of God, it is what God is-God is Spirit and God is Holy.The Holy Spirit also PROCEEDS from the Father God and can empower people to speak and do things that God wants them/us to do or say- so the Holy Spirit is God's Nature and His Power.

"But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you."
-‭‭John‬ ‭14:26‬‬

Two things:

1.  You continue to ignore the discussion on the "name of Jesus" and the "name of God".  Is the name of God an "It".  Is there 2 Names, one for Jesus and one for the Father? Is that a "Them"?  And if you believe the Spirit is the nature and power of God, how is it that the nature of God can be send in the name of a human being who does not have the same nature?

2.  If the Holy Spirit is a nature, is it an "It". How can "It" be a "Comforter" or "Helper" or "He"?


3.  If the Holy Spirit is the Father, how could the Father send Himself in the name of Jesus?
The Holy Spirit is the Spirit that proceeds from the Father and it empowers people to carry out God's work. It is a part of God but not a separate God to be worshipped...


Lord Yeshua cannot be GOD because He was “empowered” by someone which means that if Lord Yeshua is to be GOD there will always be a higher GOD -the ONE Who empowered Him namely God the Father YHWH- which is contrary to what Jewish and Christian monotheists believe, what Lord Yeshua said- as GOD is one the Father, Jesus is GOD’s Son, the promised Messiah and the Holy Spirit is the Nature and Sanctifying Power of GOD that proceeds from the Father as per John 15:26 :” But when the Comforter comes, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceeds from the Father, He shall testify of Me”.
Lord Yeshua never stated that He was GOD nor did He command us to worship Him as the Only True God, Lord Yeshua never mentioned that there was a trinity [the word trinity is never mentioned in the Bible] for if these were propounded by Lord Yeshua it would have been evident in the New Testament-the letters of the apostles and the life of Lord Yeshua.
I am sure that the Lord Yeshua would find it wrong indeed if He Himself were to become the principal object of Christian worship and adoration, when His entire life and ministry was devoted to the glorification of His Father.
For us to be strictly monotheistic believers, we should only believe in one GOD being, only worship one GOD person the Father YHWH. This would be a Christian monotheism in its purest form.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2016, 06:40:51 PM by andrewlya »
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Re: Who is..?
« Reply #115 on: December 09, 2016, 06:44:55 PM »
I hesitate to give analogies, but (and I sometimes feel this youtube narrator frequents our fora here) I think this video demonstrates why I have faith in the One God in three persons and not rely on my own limited human mind:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0G2S5ziDcO0&t=1s

And if you want to watch a prerequisite video, here's an example of Euclidean geometrical explanation of four spatial dimensions:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rG6aIVGquOg

If you love mathematics and geometry, enjoy the second video first, and then listen to the theology video that I posted first.
Thank you for the above.

I suggest you watch these:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WIOuU5DCQE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7ghXmom6lw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0be8zbIpmE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUgKolIShc4
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Re: Who is..?
« Reply #116 on: December 09, 2016, 06:50:06 PM »
Andrew, I hadn't brought this up out of concern you could take it the wrong way, but something about your phrase [not the] True God continues to stand out to me. I know it was ad hoc, and intended to convey something quite abstract -- but I wonder, is it even possible to try to describe Christ as God not God without inadvertently implying that he is a false god? His claims and the claims of the prophets and apostles may simply admit of no other interpretations than that Christ is truly God in every sense, or a false claimant. ... I won't go farther, into whether every non-Christian theogony must ultimately wreck on self-contradictory rocks of some kind ...

I am only stating what Jesus said about His God the Father- that the Father is the Only True God-who can argue with what Jesus said? NOBODY, I would definitely NOT argue with this. Nowhere else in the Bible does it say that there is anyone else is the TRUE GOD except the Father alone.At least Bible does not refer to anyone else as the TRUE GOD, only the Father is as confirmed by Jesus Himself.John 17:3:'Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.'

This is eternal life, that they know:
1.  You, the only True God
2. AND JESUS CHRIST WHOM YOU SENT

How can Jesus make Himself equally the knowledge of eternal life as the Father if He is a lesser Lord?

How do you even read this?This is a total mis-interpretation.

It says Father is the True GOD and Jesus the Messiah that had been sent. Apostle Paul confirmed that God is the Father only here and Jesus is the Messiah:  '5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth—as there are many “gods” and many “lords”— 6 Yet for us there is one God, the Father. All things are from Him, and we exist for Him.
And there is one Lord, Yeshua the Messiah. All things are through Him, and we exist through Him.' How can it be any more clearer that God is ONE, the Father! 'Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"John 20:17

'Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.'-John 4:23.

Lord's Prayers goes like this:" Our Father Who art in Heaven...' Nothing about the trinity, but about the Father. Can you see this?

The Son does not know the Hour, but only the Father knows, how about that..
« Last Edit: December 09, 2016, 06:53:28 PM by andrewlya »
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Re: Who is..?
« Reply #117 on: December 09, 2016, 07:09:10 PM »
Matthew 28:18-20 And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.
In a time of chimpanzees, I was a monkey

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Re: Who is..?
« Reply #118 on: Yesterday at 04:45:11 AM »
Matthew 28:18-20 And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.

'For I did not speak on My own, but the Father Who sent Me commanded Me to say all that I have spoken'.-John 12:49
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 04:47:43 AM by andrewlya »
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Re: Who is..?
« Reply #119 on: Yesterday at 05:15:50 AM »
Andrew, I hadn't brought this up out of concern you could take it the wrong way, but something about your phrase [not the] True God continues to stand out to me. I know it was ad hoc, and intended to convey something quite abstract -- but I wonder, is it even possible to try to describe Christ as God not God without inadvertently implying that he is a false god? His claims and the claims of the prophets and apostles may simply admit of no other interpretations than that Christ is truly God in every sense, or a false claimant. ... I won't go farther, into whether every non-Christian theogony must ultimately wreck on self-contradictory rocks of some kind ...

I am only stating what Jesus said about His God the Father- that the Father is the Only True God-who can argue with what Jesus said? NOBODY, I would definitely NOT argue with this. Nowhere else in the Bible does it say that there is anyone else is the TRUE GOD except the Father alone.At least Bible does not refer to anyone else as the TRUE GOD, only the Father is as confirmed by Jesus Himself.John 17:3:'Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.'

This is eternal life, that they know:
1.  You, the only True God
2. AND JESUS CHRIST WHOM YOU SENT

How can Jesus make Himself equally the knowledge of eternal life as the Father if He is a lesser Lord?
Ok, let's suppose this verse confirms that Jesus is God, then it still doesn't confimrm your belief in the Triniy since in this verse Jesus does not mention the Holy Spirit as the True God but only the Father and Himself. How about that?
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Re: Who is..?
« Reply #120 on: Yesterday at 05:17:11 AM »
We don't need to imagine anything.   It's been revealed to us by the will of the Father, in Christ, through the Holy Spirit....One God, amen.

I was looking for for an honest answer, but I guess it is not something that can be easily admitted by those holding onto a Trinitarian phylosophy.

Actually, the answers are all honest.  We are humble enough to know that our minds cannot comprehend the mystery of Godliness. So we obey the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.  If Christ teaches us to worship in the NAME of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, it is not us who hold a philosophy, but you who ignore the Truth right in your face, and you claim to think you can know God better than God Himself!
Show me a verse that says exactly this:"If Christ teaches us to worship in the NAME of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit"
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 05:17:44 AM by andrewlya »
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Re: Who is..?
« Reply #121 on: Yesterday at 05:19:43 AM »
Or consider the challenge of Jesus to the Pharisees:

41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42 saying, “What do you think about the Christ? Whose Son is He?”

They said to Him, “The Son of David.”

43 He said to them, “How then does David in the Spirit call Him ‘Lord,’ saying:

44 ‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool”’? (Psalm 110:1)
45 If David then calls Him ‘Lord,’ how is He his Son?” 46 And no one was able to answer Him a word, nor from that day on did anyone dare question Him anymore.
(Matthew 22)

Now we know not only the Pharisees could not answer the question of how Jesus can be both Lord and Son of David, but even Andrew himself joins their camp.  ;)
I am not joining their camp because I accept that Jesus is our Lord and our Messiah, the Son of the Living God.

How can you believe Jesus is Lord if only the one God is Lord? You claim to confess the Shema?  "Hear o Israel THE LORD YOUR GOD IS ONE."

How can you confess Jesus as Lord if you only believe in one Lord?
The Lord GOD is ONE,other people can be called lords,too.Lord reference does not necesserily mean Lord God, people have "land lords",it does not mean they are God..
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Re: Who is..?
« Reply #122 on: Yesterday at 05:27:16 AM »
When Jesus was praying to the Father, both being God, does it not sound strange to think that God was praying to God? Father and Son are two distinct persons...

Where does it say in the Bible that the Holy Spirit is God and to be worshiped?

It's not strange at all.  Is there not a bond of eternal Love between the Father and the Son?  St. Paul said it:  "being in the form of God, did not exploit His equality with God, but took the form of a slave."  That form did things you and I do so that He can exalt us into His name, the name of God.

And that name is shared with the Holy Spirit (Mark 16).

Let me ask you this Andrew.  Who got Jesus to rise from the dead?

God the Father raised Jesus :'But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him.' Acts 2:24.


Andrew, like I said, let's concentrate on one thing at at time.  You throwing questions shows a bit of impatience on your part.  You didn't even address my argument concerning the name of God.  If you can't get past this, your other questions become nothing more than fishing.

You said correctly that God the Father raised Jesus from the dead.  But you also ignored the fact that Jesus also raised Himself from the dead (John 2:19).  You also ignored the fact that the Holy Spirit raised Jesus from the dead (Romans 8:11).  As St. Paul prays, "Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence? If I ascend into heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in hell, behold, You are there." (Psalm 139)

So the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit were all involved in the resurrection.  If St. Paul is right about saying this about the Spirit, that no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit (1 Cor. 2:11), then the Spirit of God is equally God.  How can anyone else dare say they know the thoughts of God except God Himself?
The Holy Spirit is the Nature of God, it is what God is-God is Spirit and God is Holy.The Holy Spirit also PROCEEDS from the Father God and can empower people to speak and do things that God wants them/us to do or say- so the Holy Spirit is God's Nature and His Power.

"But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you."
-‭‭John‬ ‭14:26‬‬

Two things:

1.  You continue to ignore the discussion on the "name of Jesus" and the "name of God".  Is the name of God an "It".  Is there 2 Names, one for Jesus and one for the Father? Is that a "Them"?  And if you believe the Spirit is the nature and power of God, how is it that the nature of God can be send in the name of a human being who does not have the same nature?

2.  If the Holy Spirit is a nature, is it an "It". How can "It" be a "Comforter" or "Helper" or "He"?
What about the Daughter of Zion? Jerusalem is refered as SHE. Does it mean Jerusalem is a female?

" “Zion” meant Jerusalem and Israel as the people of God. “Daughter of Zion”  a metaphor for Israel."


2 Kings 19:21: A people confident in the deliverance of their God. When Assyria threatened Jerusalem, King Hezekiah went to the Lord. In response, God sent Isaiah to reassure Hezekiah that Jerusalem would not fall to Assyria, and God considered the threatening insult to “the virgin daughter of Zion” as a personal affront to Himself.

Isaiah 1:8: A hut, abandoned after judgment came to an evil family. Here, Isaiah compares the rebellion of Judah to a sick body in a devastated land. The daughter of Zion is left as a lone remnant—a shelter hidden in the vineyard or a hut in a cucumber field that barely escaped destruction.

The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father so if the Holy Spirit is referred as a HE, I have no issues with it. The Holy Spirit is a part of the God and a Spirit that empowers but is still subordinate to God the Father:"When the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all the truth. For He will not speak on His own, but He will speak whatever He hears. He will also declare to you what is to come."John 16:13.
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Re: Who is..?
« Reply #123 on: Yesterday at 06:33:09 AM »
When Jesus was praying to the Father, both being God, does it not sound strange to think that God was praying to God? Father and Son are two distinct persons...

Where does it say in the Bible that the Holy Spirit is God and to be worshiped?

It's not strange at all.  Is there not a bond of eternal Love between the Father and the Son?  St. Paul said it:  "being in the form of God, did not exploit His equality with God, but took the form of a slave."  That form did things you and I do so that He can exalt us into His name, the name of God.

And that name is shared with the Holy Spirit (Mark 16).

Let me ask you this Andrew.  Who got Jesus to rise from the dead?

God the Father raised Jesus :'But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him.' Acts 2:24.


Andrew, like I said, let's concentrate on one thing at at time.  You throwing questions shows a bit of impatience on your part.  You didn't even address my argument concerning the name of God.  If you can't get past this, your other questions become nothing more than fishing.

You said correctly that God the Father raised Jesus from the dead.  But you also ignored the fact that Jesus also raised Himself from the dead (John 2:19).  You also ignored the fact that the Holy Spirit raised Jesus from the dead (Romans 8:11).  As St. Paul prays, "Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence? If I ascend into heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in hell, behold, You are there." (Psalm 139)

So the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit were all involved in the resurrection.  If St. Paul is right about saying this about the Spirit, that no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit (1 Cor. 2:11), then the Spirit of God is equally God.  How can anyone else dare say they know the thoughts of God except God Himself?
The Holy Spirit is the Nature of God, it is what God is-God is Spirit and God is Holy.The Holy Spirit also PROCEEDS from the Father God and can empower people to speak and do things that God wants them/us to do or say- so the Holy Spirit is God's Nature and His Power.

"But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you."
-‭‭John‬ ‭14:26‬‬

Two things:

1.  You continue to ignore the discussion on the "name of Jesus" and the "name of God".  Is the name of God an "It".  Is there 2 Names, one for Jesus and one for the Father? Is that a "Them"?  And if you believe the Spirit is the nature and power of God, how is it that the nature of God can be send in the name of a human being who does not have the same nature?

2.  If the Holy Spirit is a nature, is it an "It". How can "It" be a "Comforter" or "Helper" or "He"?
1.   God and the Messiah have different names- God the Father is YHWH and the Son of God is Yeshua or Jesus in English. Jesus comes in the name of GOD because He brings what the Father God had told Him to say and do. Jesus does not come BY the name of GOD, but IN the name i.e. on behalf of the GOD the Father. You can have a messenger come to your house in the name of your friend, that is  on behalf of your friend, to bring you good news. Another example is to purchase something in the name of another or on behalf of another. Do you see the difference? Jesus the Messiah came in the name of God and told us what God the Father told Him to say. Finally, I am not saying that Jesus is a mere human, He is the Son of God. He was born divine, or in the form of God, that is why He was sinless and was the ultimate lamb, ultimate sacrifice for our sins. But being divine does not mean Jesus is God Most High otherwise we have an issue of having 2 or 3 gods. The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit is ONE in purpose and agreement like it says in the Bible Jesus and Father are one just like the apostles will be ONE ,too. If the apostles to be made one with the Father and the Son, it doesn’t make them gods does it? It makes them ONE in faith. If the apostles have seen the Father by having seen the Son is because Messiah is the likeness or representation of the Father, people now know what Father is like by having seen Jesus. At the same time Bible says that NOBODY seen GOD AT ANY TIME. Jesus has been seen by people.
2.   The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of GOD as in the Old Testament. The Holy Spirit is sent by the Father, the Holy Spirit proceeds FROM the Father, that is what the Bible says. The Holy Spirit which is referred as the Spirit of God in the Old Testament is the presence of God that blesses us and empowers us but NOT a God to be worshipped. Bible does not say to worship the Holy Spirit and you would agree with me, wouldn’t you since you won’t provide me a verse stating otherwise.
I believe in ONE God the Father YHWH and I also believe in His Son Lord Yeshua,the Mashiach.

Offline Agabus

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Re: Who is..?
« Reply #124 on: Yesterday at 01:39:28 PM »
Nope.   You're wrong.   Plain and simple.   It is you who do that which you accuse others of.
I think you may not be familiar with the history of the early Christianity and how it was infuenced by Greek pagan phylosophies.

...

Andrew: Is this post your original writing or is it a quotation from someone else's work? Long posts from forum members are fine, but if it is the latter the forum rules dictate that you post a reasonable-sized snippett and then a link to the remainder.
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 05:46:10 PM by Agabus »
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Re: Who is..?
« Reply #125 on: Yesterday at 03:02:46 PM »
1. Let me get this straight your denying the trinity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit?

2. Arguing from your private interpretation of scripture is not a good starting point, even heretics like Arius cited Scripture to propagate their heresies.

3.  Denying Our Savior Jesus Christ saying I am, or his name meaning the Messiah and where scripture says Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, your basically denying the divinity of Christ, Heretics have done this as well.

4. The whole Christianity was influenced by Paganism is stuff one would hear on Conspiracy theory so called "documentaries" and short wave radio.

5. Who founded your Church? When did it start?

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Re: Who is..?
« Reply #126 on: Yesterday at 07:03:42 PM »
Or consider the challenge of Jesus to the Pharisees:

41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42 saying, “What do you think about the Christ? Whose Son is He?”

They said to Him, “The Son of David.”

43 He said to them, “How then does David in the Spirit call Him ‘Lord,’ saying:

44 ‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool”’? (Psalm 110:1)
45 If David then calls Him ‘Lord,’ how is He his Son?” 46 And no one was able to answer Him a word, nor from that day on did anyone dare question Him anymore.
(Matthew 22)

Now we know not only the Pharisees could not answer the question of how Jesus can be both Lord and Son of David, but even Andrew himself joins their camp.  ;)
I am not joining their camp because I accept that Jesus is our Lord and our Messiah, the Son of the Living God.

How can you believe Jesus is Lord if only the one God is Lord? You claim to confess the Shema?  "Hear o Israel THE LORD YOUR GOD IS ONE."

How can you confess Jesus as Lord if you only believe in one Lord?

"Hear o Israel THE LORD YOUR GOD IS ONE."
 Mina, tell me do you believe that:
1. Lord is an  Essence? Since Lord God is ONE.
2.In Mark 12:32–33:
'You are right, Teacher. You have truly said that He is one, and there is no other besides Him. And to love him with all the heart and with all the understanding and with all the strength, and to love one's neighbor as oneself, is much more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.'  There is a clear singular pronounce- so who is the Lord GOD here, is it the Fater, the Son or the Holy Spirit is referred as "He is One" in this passage?
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Re: Who is..?
« Reply #127 on: Yesterday at 07:12:53 PM »
1. Let me get this straight your denying the trinity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit?

2. Arguing from your private interpretation of scripture is not a good starting point, even heretics like Arius cited Scripture to propagate their heresies.

3.  Denying Our Savior Jesus Christ saying I am, or his name meaning the Messiah and where scripture says Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, your basically denying the divinity of Christ, Heretics have done this as well.

4. The whole Christianity was influenced by Paganism is stuff one would hear on Conspiracy theory so called "documentaries" and short wave radio.

5. Who founded your Church? When did it start?
1. I deny Trinity because Trinity is not in the Bible.

2.I do cite my interpretation if you have been following this thread from the beginning, what is exactly that I am saying that is not backed up? Let me know I am quit sure Ill be able to back it up.

3. This refers to the fact that Jesus had pre-existed (before Abraham was Jesus, Jesus was existing before Abraham) prior to becoming a Man and Messiah on earth. There is no Trinity in the Bible and there is no formular of "Three divine persons in One God essence", this formular was invented in the 4th century and it is not in the Bible either.
So, why should I accept man made doctrines or anything that is not in the Bible as the Biblical truth?

4. The fact that you deny that Christianity had been influenced by paganism shows that you have either no knowledge of the early Christian history or you do know it but don't want to face it so you ignore it.

5.I started nothing,I am only a follower of Christ. And I am not the only Unitarian/Monotheistic Christian ho deny the heresy of polytheistic Trinity.
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 07:24:10 PM by andrewlya »
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Re: Who is..?
« Reply #128 on: Yesterday at 07:19:00 PM »

4. The whole Christianity was influenced by Paganism is stuff one would hear on Conspiracy theory so called "documentaries" and short wave radio.

Are you familiar with any of the early Christian theologians?

One early Christian writer of the 2nd and early 3rd century, Clement of Alexandria, demonstrated the assimilation of Greek thought in writing: "Philosophy has been given to the Greeks as their own kind of Covenant, their foundation for the philosophy of Christ... the philosophy of the Greeks... contains the basic elements of that genuine and perfect knowledge which is higher than human... even upon those spiritual objects." (Miscellanies 6. 8 ) [ 6]

Plato's influence on Christian thought is often thought to be mediated by his major influence on Saint Augustine of Hippo, also known as Saint Augustine, Saint Austin, Blessed Augustine, and the Doctor of Grace, is one of the most important philosophers and theologians in the history of Christianity.
Christianity is the West’s most important worldview. Plato was the West’s most important philosopher. But the two have far more in common than just importance—in fact, Plato helped set the intellectual stage for the early church. The famous Greek philosopher Plato (ca. 429-347 B.C.) believed in a divine triad of “God, the ideas, [and] the World-Spirit,” though he “nowhere explained or harmonised this triad” (Charles Bigg, Christian Platonists of Alexandria, 1886, p. 249).

Dean Inge, the famous professor of divinity, writes that:
“Platonism is part of the vital structure of Christian theology . . . . [If people would read Plotinus, who worked to reconcile Platonism with Scripture,] they would understand better the real continuity between the old culture and the new religion... The Galilean Gospel, as it proceeded from the lips of Jesus, was doubtless unaffected by Greek philosophy . . . . But [early Christianity] from its very beginning was formed by a confluence of Jewish and Hellenic religious ideas.”
This idea—Plato as important precursor to Christianity—is far from new.
Let’s look at a few thinkers who’ve found Plato important:
The above mentioned Augustine of Hippo, also known as Saint Augustine, Saint Austin, Blessed Augustine, whose writings influenced the development of Western Christianity and Western philosophy.
“The utterance of Plato, the most pure and bright in all philosophy, scattering the clouds of error . . .”
“I found that whatever truth I had read [in the Platonists] was [in the writings of Paul] combined with the exaltation of thy grace.”
Eusebius of Caesarea: “[Plato is] the only Greek who has attained the porch of (Christian) truth.”
Clement of Alexandria: “. . . before the advent of the Lord, philosophy was necessary to the Greeks for righteousness. And now it becomes conducive to piety; being a kind of preparatory training to those who attain to faith . . . . For God is the cause of all good things, but of some primarily, as of the Old and New Testaments; and of others by consequence, as philosophy. Perchance, too, philosophy was given to the Greeks directly and primarily . . . . For [philosophy] was a schoolmaster to bring ‘the Hellenic mind . . . to Christ.’ Philosophy, therefore, was a preparation, paving the way for him who is perfected in Christ.”
I believe in ONE God the Father YHWH and I also believe in His Son Lord Yeshua,the Mashiach.

Offline andrewlya

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Re: Who is..?
« Reply #129 on: Yesterday at 07:26:10 PM »
Nope.   You're wrong.   Plain and simple.   It is you who do that which you accuse others of.
I think you may not be familiar with the history of the early Christianity and how it was infuenced by Greek pagan phylosophies.

...

Andrew: Is this post your original writing or is it a quotation from someone else's work? Long posts from forum members are fine, but if it is the latter the forum rules dictate that you post a reasonable-sized snippett and then a link to the remainder.
This is nobody's post.This is my collection of findings from various researches into the early Christianity from different sources.
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 07:27:24 PM by andrewlya »
I believe in ONE God the Father YHWH and I also believe in His Son Lord Yeshua,the Mashiach.

Offline Ainnir

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Re: Who is..?
« Reply #130 on: Yesterday at 09:35:29 PM »
Andrew, please explain John 20:28 to us, then.  I'd also note that in John 18 Jesus essentially claims to Pilate to be King of Heaven.  Does this role not belong to God alone?  Further, in John 5:18 and John 10:33 the reason the Jews wanted to kill Jesus was because He made Himself out to be God, and made Himself equal with God.  And again, Emmanuel means "God with us," as foretold in Isaiah 7:14.  And again, who exactly is referenced in Isaiah 9:6.  What of John 1?  I find I can't just ignore these verses, and many others like them.

So either the New Testament is accurate and Jesus is lying and/or crazy, or the New Testament is inaccurate and untrustworthy, or the New Testament is accurate and Jesus is, in fact, God incarnate.  This is not a new line of reasoning.  If you insist on maintaining that Jesus is not God, then you must throw out either the New (and Old?) Testament or Christ as Messiah.  Or, perhaps you could begin to question your own understanding of what "One" might mean, and realize that the God of the universe just might supersede our logic and comprehension, as well as time and space.  These appear to be the options before us.  Whichever you choose, faith plays the key role in adopting any view.

Unfortunately, though, I don't get the impression you are actually struggling with this issue.  I get the impression you have made up your mind, and are 100% certain you are correct, and are simply looking to scatter sheep and set everyone right according to your standard.  I hope I'm wrong, but this is the impression I get.  If I'm not wrong, and you are wrong, it is a very serious risk you take.

Offline Agabus

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Re: Who is..?
« Reply #131 on: Yesterday at 10:22:16 PM »
Nope.   You're wrong.   Plain and simple.   It is you who do that which you accuse others of.
I think you may not be familiar with the history of the early Christianity and how it was infuenced by Greek pagan phylosophies.

...

Andrew: Is this post your original writing or is it a quotation from someone else's work? Long posts from forum members are fine, but if it is the latter the forum rules dictate that you post a reasonable-sized snippett and then a link to the remainder.
This is nobody's post.This is my collection of findings from various researches into the early Christianity from different sources.

Please provide sources. I have no problem with you trying to explain your position, but we don't allow unattributed copy-and-paste jobs.

From our rules page (which you can read here): * Quoting Other Articles, Websites, etc. -- When linking articles, news stories, etc., please only copy the first paragraph or at most two as an intro text, with a link to the original, so we can obviate any accusations of exceeding "fair use" allowances in terms of copyright.
Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH