Author Topic: Convince me that Anglicanism is false  (Read 3651 times)

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Offline WPM

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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #135 on: May 06, 2015, 07:13:13 PM »
The dragon of Revelation came out of the sea and Jesus slew it with the sword of His mouth.

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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #136 on: May 06, 2015, 09:38:13 PM »
The dragon of Revelation came out of the sea and Jesus slew it with the sword of His mouth.

LOL.
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Offline Minnesotan

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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #137 on: May 06, 2015, 09:41:43 PM »
The dragon of Revelation came out of the sea and Jesus slew it with the sword of His mouth.

LOL.

The next time a premillennial dispensationalist claims that his own interpretation of Revelation is the correct one because it's literal, I'm going to ask him: How literal? Do you believe a literal giant beast is going to come out of the sea, Godzilla-style, and people are going to worship it?

Actually, now that I think about it, that'd be a great plot for an old-school Japanese kaiju movie, or else some kind of Lovecraftian horror story.

I also think it's more likely to actually happen than the one-world-government scenario the dispies prefer. Trying to put together a one-world government is like herding cats. If anything, the world seems to be becoming more fragmented these days.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2015, 09:51:32 PM by Minnesotan »
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Offline kelly

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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #138 on: May 06, 2015, 10:03:50 PM »
The dragon of Revelation came out of the sea and Jesus slew it with the sword of His mouth.

Man... and I missed it?
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #139 on: May 07, 2015, 12:20:41 AM »
Locked pending split
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #140 on: May 07, 2015, 01:27:46 AM »
The tangent on St. Nicholas's striking of Arius has been split off and moved to Religious Topics.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=64700.0
« Last Edit: May 07, 2015, 01:28:53 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #141 on: May 07, 2015, 01:34:55 AM »
The tangent on the question of whom was the last person anathematized by the Orthodox Church has been moved to Religious Topics.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=64702.0
« Last Edit: May 07, 2015, 01:36:00 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #142 on: May 07, 2015, 01:38:40 AM »
Thread now unlocked... As you can see, I had to split off two tangents and move them to other places on OC.net. Please work to keep this thread focused on the topic of how Anglicanism is false and keep these side tangents to a minimum. Thank you.
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Offline Daedelus1138

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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #143 on: May 07, 2015, 03:17:07 AM »
But I do believe that 16th century Anglicanism before the Elizabethan Settlement, and even afterwards, was a nightmare, and can be falsified on the basis of the contradictory views of its founders. 

The early church had contradictory views too.  Justin Martyr believed he worshipped three gods.  Does that discredit the Orthodox Church?

Quote
In like manner I believe 20th century "Broad Church", "Affirming Catholic" or liberal modernist and postmodernist Anglicanism of the sort started by Bishop James Pike and perpetuated by the likes of Spong and Gene Robinson, is horrible; it embraces heresy and can be falsified just from the writings of St. Irenaeus.  Or the Bible.  So it actively seeks to deprecate these and become a sort of Unitarian Universalist church with an Episcopal polity.  And it has really hurt people. 

Most of those people left because they did not like the idea of gay bishops.    Liberalism in Episcopalianism has been there since at least the 50's.  Which is why I found the ACNA and AMiA missions (which I visited, there are several near where I used to live) to be so insincere when they claimed they were all about historic Christian belief, and yet were in no rush to have serious ecumenical talks with Rome or the East.  They wanted their cake and to eat it too; it was just a schismatic tendency over a secondary issue, which is idolatry.  At least the Continuing Anglicans took a more principled stand based on a particular understanding of what Anglicanism is.

Quote
So many people have been driven from their churches by the Episcopal Church USA's $40 million lawsuit program.  Check out the websites creedalchristian.blogspot.com or Stand Firm in Faith (standfirm.org I think) for a survey of the misery it's caused.  That's why there are so many Anglican "refugees" in the Orthodox Church. 

I agree that is a problem, and I hope the pace of change in the Episcopal church slows down and there is more respect for the "faith of the dead", especially that the amount of liturgical innovation slows down.  But on the other hand many of those churches that left are far from Eastern Orthodoxy in their faith and worship.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2015, 03:18:01 AM by Daedelus1138 »

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #144 on: May 07, 2015, 03:19:49 AM »
But I do believe that 16th century Anglicanism before the Elizabethan Settlement, and even afterwards, was a nightmare, and can be falsified on the basis of the contradictory views of its founders. 

The early church had contradictory views too.  Justin Martyr believed he worshipped three gods.
You have proof of that?
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Offline Daedelus1138

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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #145 on: May 07, 2015, 03:39:50 AM »
The early church had contradictory views too.  Justin Martyr believed he worshipped three gods.
You have proof of that?
[/quote]

Go read his dialogue with Trypho.  He is definitely not using the precise Trinitarian language of Nicea.  In fact he uses the words "another God":

"that there is said to be, another God and Lord subject to the Maker of all things; who is also called an Angel, because He announces to men whatsoever the Maker of all things--above whom there is no other God--wishes to announce to them"

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #146 on: May 07, 2015, 03:52:44 AM »
The early church had contradictory views too.  Justin Martyr believed he worshipped three gods.
You have proof of that?

Go read his dialogue with Trypho.
Would you be willing to post a link to that so I don't have to take your proof text and possible misquote at face value?

He is definitely not using the precise Trinitarian language of Nicea.  In fact he uses the words "another God":

"that there is said to be, another God and Lord subject to the Maker of all things; who is also called an Angel, because He announces to men whatsoever the Maker of all things--above whom there is no other God--wishes to announce to them"
« Last Edit: May 07, 2015, 03:53:36 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline Daedelus1138

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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #147 on: May 07, 2015, 05:00:11 AM »
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/justinmartyr-dialoguetrypho.html 

Be warned it is a long read.  I would focus on part LVI

Offline byhisgrace

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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #148 on: May 07, 2015, 08:13:24 AM »
Thank you, Peter.

As you can tell from my previous post, I, as the OP, am no longer interested in the main topic. You can lock this thread, if you want to. 
« Last Edit: May 07, 2015, 08:13:52 AM by byhisgrace »

Offline wgw

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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #149 on: May 08, 2015, 02:34:06 AM »
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/justinmartyr-dialoguetrypho.html 

Be warned it is a long read.  I would focus on part LVI

The Holy Tradition of the Apostle's was complex and not all the early saints had a clear grasp on all of it.  For example, the clear Trinitarianism we see in St. John and his disciples such as Ss. Polycarp and Irenaeus was not universally present.  The early saints were learning the apostolic tradition even as they evangelized.  Most of them did not have access to all of the books of the Canonical New Testament.  Indeed it was Tertullian who later fell into heresy who coined the word Trinity to help people understand the nature of the Godhood. 

And indeed you were correct also to say initially the line between presbyter and bishop was blurred.  However by the time of St. Ignatius, it was certainly crystal clear in Antioch, which was the most important Eastern church at the time I think, already having eclipsed Jerusalem, which would soon be mostly destroyed within 40 or so years of his martyrdom.  And the epistles of Ignatius ensured this model became standard.  Also the Orthodox see in 1 Clement an episcopal model, but this is debated.

The early church must be understood as a church in formation, which by the time of Arius had fully formed as a result of everyone having thanks to St. Ignatius understood correct polity, thanks to St. Irenaeus having understood correct doctrine (except regarding the Millenium; Chiliasm seems to have been an aspect of some the followers of St. John but we have other early saints like I believe St. Justin Martyr who were aware it was wrong), and thanks to Tertullian, having one word to express the Godhead, and thanks to Hippolytus having access to vital information on the Apostolic canons, correct liturgical forms, and more catalogs of heresies, and through Origen, having a formation in philosophy and deep intellectual training. 

The result of all of this was that the bishops at Nicea were able to instantly identify Arius as being a heretic.  Providentially, God prepared the church in size and strength to receive the huge influx of converts after Constantine following the Diocletian persecutions, which ensured the authenticity of the faith of the hierarchy.  Ss. Alexander of Alexandria, Nicholas, et al, actually lived through that, but many of their friends and predecessors were killed.  In like manner, the church was prepared to fight off Arianism after the death of Constantine when the political machinations of Eusebius of Nicomedia.

I believe the Twelve Apostles and St. Paul had through their close contact the entirety of Holy Tradition.  However it had to be documented, and the Synoptics omitted key things requiring St. John according to our tradition to write one more to supplement it.  And then it took a while for this tradition to be fully propagated as you inevitably due to a shortage of manuscripts and the insidious presence of Gnostic and other heretical forgeries, and you needed heresiologists like Ss. Irenaeus, Hippolytus, and Tertullian, before the latter became a heretic, to document the heresies and refute them, and you needed scholars like Tertullian, Clement of Alexandria and Origen to make the tradition easy to understand.

In the fourth century in turn Ss. Athanasius, Basil, Ambrose and John Chrysostom in particular did much work to make the faith ever more comprehensible as a whole, while others such as Ss. Anthony and Gregory of Nazianzus probed the mystical depths.  And you had still others like St. Nicholas distinguished through charity, and other types of saints, through whose labor and bloodshed the Apostolic faith, having been preserved and consistently propagated, was now made readily accessible, easy to discern from heresy, and demonstrated in its virtue through charity.

Offline Daedelus1138

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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #150 on: May 08, 2015, 04:44:31 PM »
My point is that diversity of belief doesn't make a religious body or movement "unorthodox", especially if the finer points of doctrine have yet to be spelled out.

Until the Arian controversy in the Church, there was no Trinitarian doctrine.  Which is why Justin Martyr's language seems so strange.  He probably believed in one God but was unable to articulate how three persons could be one God.


« Last Edit: May 08, 2015, 04:52:50 PM by Daedelus1138 »

Offline wgw

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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #151 on: May 08, 2015, 05:20:16 PM »
Your point is lacking one. The Orthodox Church has a diversity of beliefs as the different debates on this site should indicate.  Orthodoxy is a pale beyond which we don't go, but within it any position is a matter of theological opinion.

Offline Mockingbird

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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #152 on: May 09, 2015, 01:42:36 PM »
Trisagion is right, proving a faith tradition false is not a fruitful endeavor.
  I can recommend some other forums where you can ask Anglicans about their beliefs and hear their own answers with fewer distractions than here.  PM me if you are interested.
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #153 on: May 09, 2015, 02:07:16 PM »
Trisagion is right, proving a faith tradition false is not a fruitful endeavor.
  I can recommend some other forums where you can ask Anglicans about their beliefs and hear their own answers with fewer distractions than here.  PM me if you are interested.
Please don't. Per forum rules, you are not permitted to advertise other forums and solicit our members to join them even via private message. If you have any questions about this rule, please PM me.
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Offline xariskai

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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #154 on: May 10, 2015, 06:23:08 PM »
Justin was not ipso facto di-theist simply because his manner of speaking is not one later generations would use (and would in fact repudiate to clarify rejection of polytheism). "Justin also shows an early attempt to reflect philosophically on the divine unity and plurality involved in traditional Christian views of God and Christ. Christ is 'numerically distinct' from the Father and was 'begotten from the Father' (Dial Tryph 128.4; 129.4), yet the essence (ousia) of the Father is not thereby reduced. Another of Justin's ways of distinguishing the Father and Son is that although the Son can be called 'God' he is 'begotten,' wherea the Father is the 'unbegotten' (agenetos; e.g. Dial Tryph 114.3; 126.2). This begetting of the Son/Logos is before all creation and is unique (e.g. Dial Tryph 105.1), but it is not clear that this is the same as the later idea of the Son's eternal sonship. Justin also distinguishes between the 'person (prosopon) of the Father and Son as he ses them referred to in the OT (e.g. Apol 1, 36-38). Justin takes all the theophanies in the OT as manifestations of the Son/Logos (e.g. Dial Tryph 59; 126), even arguing that Jesus was the divine name revealed to Moses (Dial Tryph 57; cf. Ex 23:20). A number of times Justin insists upon the property of worshiping Christ as well as the Father (e.g. Dial Tryph 65). These all amount to a creative attempt to reflect upon and justify Christian convictions about monotheism and the divinity of Christ" (Martin and Davids, eds., Dictionary of the Later New Testament and its Developments: A Compendium of Contemporary Scholarship, p 183).
« Last Edit: May 10, 2015, 06:54:48 PM by xariskai »

Offline wgw

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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #155 on: May 10, 2015, 09:46:09 PM »
Thank you for that Xariskai.  That seems to me to put to bed the notion of Justin Martyr being heterodox in his triadology rather nicely.

Offline pasadi97

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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #156 on: Yesterday at 09:29:46 PM »
Do me a favor.

Take Holy water from an Orthodox Church and Holy Water from a Roman Catholic Church and put them side by side seeing which one resists more.

That will show you what can do a modification of the procedure of obtaining Holy Water. Now Anglican  in my understanding did more modifications that Roman Catholics not only regarding Holy Water. You go with modifications, you get a risk.

Protestants modified even more renouncing at Holy Water all together, at prayers for departed and others. You go with modifications you get risk.
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 09:35:13 PM by pasadi97 »
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Offline wgw

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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #157 on: Yesterday at 09:40:37 PM »
Resists what?

Offline Minnesotan

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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #158 on: Yesterday at 10:42:19 PM »
Resists what?

Well, if it's put outside in a pool, maybe you could see which one attracts the fewest mosquito larvae.

How pure is the water to start out with? Do they usually use distilled, or tap, or from lakes/rivers? And is it usually chlorinated or not? All of these are confounding variables.
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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #159 on: Yesterday at 11:34:21 PM »
Resists what?

Well, if it's put outside in a pool, maybe you could see which one attracts the fewest mosquito larvae.

How pure is the water to start out with? Do they usually use distilled, or tap, or from lakes/rivers? And is it usually chlorinated or not? All of these are confounding variables.
Remember, y'all are questioning someone who thinks the truth lies with the group that has the better miracles.
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 11:36:22 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #160 on: Yesterday at 11:40:57 PM »
Resists what?

Well, if it's put outside in a pool, maybe you could see which one attracts the fewest mosquito larvae.

How pure is the water to start out with? Do they usually use distilled, or tap, or from lakes/rivers? And is it usually chlorinated or not? All of these are confounding variables.
Remember, y'all are questioning someone who thinks the truth lies with the group that has the better miracles.

Didn't St Maximus say something like you should approach your salvation like a science?

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #161 on: Today at 12:01:32 AM »
Do me a favor.

Take Holy water from an Orthodox Church and Holy Water from a Roman Catholic Church and put them side by side seeing which one resists more.

That will show you what can do a modification of the procedure of obtaining Holy Water. Now Anglican  in my understanding did more modifications that Roman Catholics not only regarding Holy Water. You go with modifications, you get a risk.

Protestants modified even more renouncing at Holy Water all together, at prayers for departed and others. You go with modifications you get risk.
Ok, I've done what you told me to. As I peer intently at both of them, I see a vague reflection of myself and my cat who seems to be interested in this experiment. They don't look any different to me. What is the next step?
Will we all have to prove our Orthodoxy by adopting St Nicholas avatars now?

Offline Daedelus1138

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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #162 on: Today at 09:32:27 AM »
Remember, y'all are questioning someone who thinks the truth lies with the group that has the better miracles.

If that's the criteria we were to use, it would be very confusing indeed.  I know nothing about completely non-Trinitarian groups such as Mormons or Jehovah's witnesses, but every Christian religious groups I can think of has stories of miracles, sometimes just as spectacular as anything you will find in Eastern Orthodoxy (I remember reading a story about an English free-church preacher, George Muller, noted for his charitable works, who once prayed and a fog lifted immediately).  So in the battle of the miracles you are going to come away with nothing conclusive.

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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #163 on: Today at 10:25:12 AM »
Do me a favor.

Take Holy water from an Orthodox Church and Holy Water from a Roman Catholic Church and put them side by side seeing which one resists more.

That will show you what can do a modification of the procedure of obtaining Holy Water. Now Anglican  in my understanding did more modifications that Roman Catholics not only regarding Holy Water. You go with modifications, you get a risk.

Protestants modified even more renouncing at Holy Water all together, at prayers for departed and others. You go with modifications you get risk.
Ok, I've done what you told me to. As I peer intently at both of them, I see a vague reflection of myself and my cat who seems to be interested in this experiment. They don't look any different to me. What is the next step?
Do yourself a favor and ignore pasadi. Empirical testing of Holy Water just gets one wet.

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Offline wgw

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Re: Convince me that Anglicanism is false
« Reply #164 on: Today at 12:29:31 PM »
Actually empirical testing of the fonts in Carholic churches has shown they're a hotbed of bacteria.  As one would expect.

The Orthodox approach of sprinkling people,with Holy Water and distributing it individually is much healthier.

I've been in a modern RC church with a flowing water font,maker of a fountain; I think fonts could be made safe if they used this design, with gravel filters to trap the bacteria, similiar to those used in high end swimming pools as an alternative to chlorine.  The pump would have to be switched off though during the liturgy.  Major engineering headaches.

Some Anglo Catholic Churches also have these.  Note that I continue to use holy water fonts when I visit these churches; it has never made me sick and the water is still cleaner than your average stream.  But it is not as sterile a practice as the Orthodox procedures for distributing holy water.