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Offline Eruvande

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Re: Protestants here ...
« Reply #45 on: September 08, 2014, 04:45:27 AM »
If I may address the OP - as a current protestant, I certainly participate less in this forum than I have done on Catholic forums because, if you'll forgive me, Orthodoxy is quite alien to me, and I don't understand the vast majority of the banter that goes on here. It can be like a foreign language forum at times, in terms of my understanding of what is going on. I hang around because I am convinced Orthodoxy is the truth and I want to learn, but my lack of active participation is down to a lack of confidence that I have anything worthwhile to say to you all!!
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Offline MarianCatholic

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Re: Protestants here ...
« Reply #46 on: September 08, 2014, 07:22:03 AM »
Maybe because we are viewed as a less of a threat than Roman Catholicism. People are drawn towards what they perceive as a threat to their ideology or group.

Perhaps, at least its an interesting theory...

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Offline Santagranddad

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Re: Protestants here ...
« Reply #47 on: September 08, 2014, 07:24:42 AM »
Cannot speak of their Doctrine, save most Protestant appear to have shifted their stance on so many things in such a short space of time that their only companions on this appears to be Rome. Indeed in some areas including worship their appear to march in strep.

As regards Methodists in particular I may only say I have admired the commitment of several congregations to soup kitchens and reaching out to the homeless. This I applaud.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Protestants here ...
« Reply #48 on: September 08, 2014, 12:56:31 PM »
If I may address the OP - as a current protestant, I certainly participate less in this forum than I have done on Catholic forums because, if you'll forgive me, Orthodoxy is quite alien to me, and I don't understand the vast majority of the banter that goes on here. It can be like a foreign language forum at times, in terms of my understanding of what is going on. I hang around because I am convinced Orthodoxy is the truth and I want to learn, but my lack of active participation is down to a lack of confidence that I have anything worthwhile to say to you all!!

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Offline DennyB

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Re: Protestants here ...
« Reply #49 on: September 09, 2014, 06:49:13 AM »
If I may address the OP - as a current protestant, I certainly participate less in this forum than I have done on Catholic forums because, if you'll forgive me, Orthodoxy is quite alien to me, and I don't understand the vast majority of the banter that goes on here. It can be like a foreign language forum at times, in terms of my understanding of what is going on. I hang around because I am convinced Orthodoxy is the truth and I want to learn, but my lack of active participation is down to a lack of confidence that I have anything worthwhile to say to you all!!

I share your sentiment, I am unlearned in some ways towards the Orthodox way of life,and like you am thoroughly convinced of the truth of Orthodoxy,but where I live limits my ability to fully participate, someone suggested I see about having a mission church started in my area, but I am unsure about which steps to take in bringing that about.

Offline katherineofdixie

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Re: Protestants here ...
« Reply #50 on: September 09, 2014, 09:28:43 AM »
I share your sentiment, I am unlearned in some ways towards the Orthodox way of life,and like you am thoroughly convinced of the truth of Orthodoxy,but where I live limits my ability to fully participate, someone suggested I see about having a mission church started in my area, but I am unsure about which steps to take in bringing that about.

Isn't there an Antiochian church in your area?

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Offline Jude1:3

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Re: Protestants here ...
« Reply #51 on: September 10, 2014, 01:30:43 AM »
   Like others have said, I think it's because many of us Protestants don't even know about Orthodoxy. I'm glad this forum exists for people to find out information and have dialog.

Offline Minnesotan

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Re: Protestants here ...
« Reply #52 on: September 20, 2014, 05:19:06 PM »
"Vatican I begat the Reformation"

How so, when Vatican I took place in the 19th century?
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Offline Minnesotan

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Re: Protestants here ...
« Reply #53 on: September 20, 2014, 05:20:26 PM »
"Some might suggest that the Orthodox are closer to the non-Chalcedonians than to an ever greater drift between Orthodoxy and Rome."

Some might suggest that? More like all, from what I've encountered.
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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Protestants here ...
« Reply #54 on: September 20, 2014, 05:25:55 PM »
"Vatican I begat the Reformation"

How so, when Vatican I took place in the 19th century?

That's clearly not true.
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Offline Minnesotan

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Re: Protestants here ...
« Reply #55 on: September 20, 2014, 05:28:21 PM »
"Unless you include the Old Believers as an eastern flavor of Protestantism."

The "priestless" ones, maybe. There are a lot of parallels between the bezopopovtzy and groups like the Seekers in the West. Both believed that a true apostolic and sacramental church had once existed, but no longer did due to a "great apostasy", and the only way it could be restored would be if Christ sent another apostle. Roger Williams, notably, came to believe this toward the end of his life as well.

The "popovtzy" (priested) Old Believers were more like ultra-traditionalist Catholics than Protestants.

Other, non-Old Believer sects in Russia have some parallels in the West, mostly among radical Anabaptists or ultra-low-church Protestants. The Subbotniks were sort of like Russian Seventh-Day Adventists. Molokans were similar to Pentecostals, in fact, some historians claim that Pentecostalism in the USA arose partly due to the influence of Molokan immigrants. The Doukhobors were anarchist pacifists, and the Skoptsy were a more gruesome version of the Shakers.
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Offline Minnesotan

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Re: Protestants here ...
« Reply #56 on: September 20, 2014, 05:33:39 PM »
xOrthodox4Christx,

Vatican I took place in 1869-70. I was responding to Porter O'Doran's comment (reply #27) where he said that Vatican I begat the Reformation and Protestantism begat Vatican II.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2014, 05:33:53 PM by Minnesotan »
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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Protestants here ...
« Reply #57 on: September 20, 2014, 05:40:23 PM »
xOrthodox4Christx,

Vatican I took place in 1869-70. I was responding to Porter O'Doran's comment (reply #27) where he said that Vatican I begat the Reformation and Protestantism begat Vatican II.

I recognize that. It was a clear factual error. I more inclined to say the Council of Constance begat the Reformation.
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Offline JamesR

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Re: Protestants here ...
« Reply #58 on: September 20, 2014, 06:26:43 PM »
but to say that Protestants and Catholics are closer than Orthodox and Catholics?  :laugh:

Isn't that far of a stretch. Theologically they are more similar--in particular, their Atonement and Soteriology which is rooted in Anselm, a (mis)understanding of St. Augustine, and legalism, which are pretty much identical.

Protestantism is merely this theology taken a step further. Whereas Catholics believe that Sacraments and the Church are necessary, Protestants--using the same theology--dismiss these things in lieu of "faith alone," and Calvinists take it even a step further with the total depravity God-chooses thing.
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Offline JamesR

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Re: Protestants here ...
« Reply #59 on: September 20, 2014, 06:29:07 PM »
To answer the OP, the answer is most likely a combination of:

1) Most Protestants don't know we exist, or think we're merely some nationalistic form of Roman Catholicism without a Pope.

2) Protestants dislike Roman Catholics in particular and like to engage them because of a tense history, whereas they don't have this history with Orthodox people

3) Most Protestants are unprepared and ill-equipped to dialogue with Orthodox people. They can't understand Christianity outside of the Western mindset and Western theology--so most of their arguments and thoughts fall short and are irrelevant.
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Offline Peter J

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Re: Protestants here ...
« Reply #60 on: October 04, 2014, 09:52:51 PM »
but to say that Protestants and Catholics are closer than Orthodox and Catholics?  :laugh:

Isn't that far of a stretch. Theologically they are more similar--in particular, their Atonement and Soteriology which is rooted in Anselm, a (mis)understanding of St. Augustine, and legalism, which are pretty much identical.

Protestantism is merely this theology taken a step further. Whereas Catholics believe that Sacraments and the Church are necessary, Protestants--using the same theology--dismiss these things in lieu of "faith alone," and Calvinists take it even a step further with the total depravity God-chooses thing.

 :)

I should probably introduce you to some of my Catholic friends and acquaintances who think that Catholics and Orthodox are like two peas in a pod and that Catholics and protestants aren't even remotely similar.
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Offline Nephi

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Re: Protestants here ...
« Reply #61 on: October 04, 2014, 10:10:24 PM »
that Catholics and protestants aren't even remotely similar.

To be honest, apart from my trad Catholic friends, almost all Latin Catholics I know spiritually resemble Protestants more than about anything else. Their very ecumenism is Protestant-driven (or Evangelical-driven), with concessions regularly made in that direction (e.g. liturgically, or toning down/de-emphasizing certain things to be more "ecumenical," etc.). Their worship/liturgical services are almost verbatim what I've seen at Protestant/semi-Emergent/semi-liturgical churches. Their prayers are almost straight out of a liberal mainline Protestant denomination that dabbles with saint veneration. Even some of their beliefs are remarkably similar to liberal mainliners (e.g. gay marriage, female priesthood, semi-iconoclasm, antiquarian-reconstructionism, Biblical criticism to extremes [e.g. at least one Catholic theology professor at a Catholic university argues that Luke taught Jesus was a created being], the Resurrection wasn't a real historical event [as professed and taught by a Marianist priest/professor], etc. etc.).

If anything, I'd say that your average American Latin Catholic is more similar to a liberal mainline Protestant denomination than Orthodoxy. Just look at what comes out of American Catholic academia for example, but also even on the parish level. Even if "technically theologically speaking" they're closer aligned to Orthodox (sometimes), they are strangely closer to Protestants in practice.

Now none of this applies to more traditional-minded Latin Catholics, whom I believe Orthodox share a great deal with and are definitely closer to than Protestants.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2014, 10:11:42 PM by Nephi »

Offline Paisius

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Re: Protestants here ...
« Reply #62 on: October 04, 2014, 10:20:22 PM »
but to say that Protestants and Catholics are closer than Orthodox and Catholics?  :laugh:

Isn't that far of a stretch. Theologically they are more similar--in particular, their Atonement and Soteriology which is rooted in Anselm, a (mis)understanding of St. Augustine, and legalism, which are pretty much identical.

Protestantism is merely this theology taken a step further. Whereas Catholics believe that Sacraments and the Church are necessary, Protestants--using the same theology--dismiss these things in lieu of "faith alone," and Calvinists take it even a step further with the total depravity God-chooses thing.

 :)

I should probably introduce you to some of my Catholic friends and acquaintances who think that Catholics and Orthodox are like two peas in a pod and that Catholics and protestants aren't even remotely similar.



Oh I've met them.  ;)

It leads to endless corrections, discussions, explanations and arguments. I will say though in many ways I think it's even worse for Eastern Catholics where you often have Latin Rite Catholics trying to explain to you what you actually believe.  :laugh:

Offline jb504079

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Re: Protestants here ...
« Reply #63 on: November 21, 2014, 04:57:48 PM »
It's hard to compare "Protestantism" with anything really.  There are so many flavors of Protestantism that I don't think it's accurate to compare Methodists to Orthodoxy in the same way you would compare Baptists to Orthodoxy, for Baptists and Methodists are pretty far apart doctrinally as well.

I was born and raised "Protestant", yet attended churches throughout my life that espoused different beliefs which many times contradicted the last church I had attended....

I'm thankful I found the true faith.  NOTHING compares to the fullness of the Orthodox faith in my experience.

Offline Josiah

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Re: Protestants here ...
« Reply #64 on: September 16, 2015, 12:52:02 PM »
Alright, I have a question for Anglicans, Lutherans, Methodists, Presbyters, Baptists, and Pentecostals.

I participate on a certain electronic discussion-oriented service run by Catholics. Now, without meaning to put too fine a point on it, I have noticed that large numbers of protestants participate there despite the fact that it isn't exactly very friendly toward protestants (nor any other non-Catholic Christians, or non-Christians).

With that in mind, it always puzzles me when I come here and see a much, much lower level of protestant participation. Do any of you have any idea of why that is?

IF I may venture a guess (and a personal 'reason')   And PLEASE, I mean no disrespect WHATSOEVER to any,  just trying to respond to the question... in FULL awareness that everything I here say could be absolutely wrong.


1.  Until I met a Greek Orthodox person in college, I don't think I knew a THING about Orthodoxy - other than what I was taught as a Catholic, namely, these were Eastern Catholics who stubbornly refused to submit to the Infallible Vicar of Christ but rebelled against the Church Jesus founded.  Indeed, I was told the Orthodox Church was the original Protestants.  That's what  I was told and I never heard a word otherwise.  I was quite stunned when I met my friend (I was already investigating Lutheranism by then).   I found MUCH of what she said quite interesting and refreshing.  As I gave my reasons for leaving the Catholic Church, she stunned me by AGREEING on virtually every point. 

2.  For many years before that, I was (way too) active at Christian discussion forums - most of the Catholic but a few interdenominational/ecumenical.   These had a lot of various Protestants and a lot of Catholics but very few Orthodox.  And what FEW Orthodox were there, they simply seemed to follow the Catholics around and post "me, too."   I don't recall a single case when an Orthodox poster ever disagreed with a Catholic one.   Not  once did any Catholic ever disagree with any Orthodox, either although usually the Catholics just ignored the Orthodox posters.  This gave me the impression that the Orthodox were Catholics who worshiped in languages other the English... I didn't know how to incorporate that with what I had been told that the Orthodox were the original Protestants who rebelled against God's Church and the Authority of Christ on Earth.

3.  In my discussions with my Greek Orthodox friend..... and 3 different  Orthodox pastors that she has directed  me to..... I've come to embrace that 1200 years of separation has resulting in some very different ways of approaching these things.   She speaks often of very different paradigms that makes conversations difficult.   She stressed that in her converstations with "Western" Chrstians, there's much "talking past" each other.   Such is always the fault of both sides.

4.  Roughly about the same time as I met my Greek friend, I began attending the "Greek Festival" at the local Greek Orthodox Church.  It's a BIG, BIG community event.  Greek foods, Greek dancers, Greek venders, Greek desserts, even Greek wine and beer (who would have known there is Greek beer!).   I love the event and go just about every year.   I love the food, the kids are so adorable to watch dance, I get out there on the floor and TRY to do that line dance.   And every year, the pastor does a tour of the church and gives a little talk about Orthodoxy.   MY impressions of all this is that the Greek Orthodox Church is very, very, very GREEK.   The program was full of ads about GREEK things.  It gave the names of the leaders of the church - nearly all had GREEK names.   It plugged classed in learning to speak GREEK.  And the pastor's talk - it STRESSED Greek.  Greek this, Greek that.   I've heard him 3 or 4 times now, and I don't recall him mentioning Christ or the Eucharist or mercy.... just a lot about what GREEKS do, this is GREEK worship.  One year, I  remember someone raising their hand to ask a question and he okayed that; the question was why the Greek Church left the Catholic Church (I'm SURE the questioner meant no offense - just YET ANOTHER ignorant Catholic, told EXACTLY what I was).   He was obviously disturbed by the question but realize no offense was meant and so smiled nicely and said, "It's complex."   That's all he said., that's exactly what he said.   The whole point I got was:  this is for Greeks.   I'm a blonde/blue German/American.   Oh, and he had this big, thick beard - and I can't grow a beard (hardly anything there - and it's blonde so you can't see it IF I could grow one!).  This is NOT for us.  That is the powerful, powerful message I got.  Perhaps I misunderstood.

Again PLEASE, PLEASE I mean no disrespect whatsoever.... and ONLY sharing my feelings (in full acceptance they could be wrong).



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« Last Edit: September 16, 2015, 12:57:52 PM by Josiah »

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Protestants here ...
« Reply #65 on: September 16, 2015, 01:37:11 PM »
I think sadly, that is the impression that all too many get when visiting some of the more ethnic parishes, and Greeks tend to be more ethnically focused than other jurisdications. I would venture to say that you would probably have had a significantly different experience if you had attended an Orthodox Church of America parish or an Antiochian Archdiocese parish. All of them are in communion with one another, but some are much more accustomed to "regular Americans" than others. Our parish, for example, has the liturgy entirely in English. There is no ethnic emphasis other than since our priest is ex-Lutheran, we have Oktoberfest in the fall.  :laugh:
The term planet earth is an innovation which has arisen in recent centuries with the error of heliocentrism.

If one wants to confess a pure doctrine of Orthodoxy, they should be careful not to refer to the earth as a planet, unlike the current Pope as well as Patriarch Kirill and Patriarch Bartholomew, who regularly speak in error when they refer to our planet earth.

Offline Josiah

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Re: Protestants here ...
« Reply #66 on: September 16, 2015, 01:44:46 PM »
I think sadly, that is the impression that all too many get when visiting some of the more ethnic parishes, and Greeks tend to be more ethnically focused than other jurisdications. I would venture to say that you would probably have had a significantly different experience if you had attended an Orthodox Church of America parish or an Antiochian Archdiocese parish. All of them are in communion with one another, but some are much more accustomed to "regular Americans" than others. Our parish, for example, has the liturgy entirely in English. There is no ethnic emphasis other than since our priest is ex-Lutheran, we have Oktoberfest in the fall.  :laugh:

I doubt hardly any Americans are aware that there are ANY Orthodox churches where English is used.  I certainly didn't (and there are none known to me where I live).  The Greek Orthodox one is the only one around.  NO ONE at that Orthodox conveyed that.... they pushed (HARD) classes in how to learn Greek.

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Protestants here ...
« Reply #67 on: September 16, 2015, 02:06:16 PM »
I think sadly, that is the impression that all too many get when visiting some of the more ethnic parishes, and Greeks tend to be more ethnically focused than other jurisdications. I would venture to say that you would probably have had a significantly different experience if you had attended an Orthodox Church of America parish or an Antiochian Archdiocese parish. All of them are in communion with one another, but some are much more accustomed to "regular Americans" than others. Our parish, for example, has the liturgy entirely in English. There is no ethnic emphasis other than since our priest is ex-Lutheran, we have Oktoberfest in the fall.  :laugh:

I doubt hardly any Americans are aware that there are ANY Orthodox churches where English is used.  I certainly didn't (and there are none known to me where I live).  The Greek Orthodox one is the only one around.  NO ONE at that Orthodox conveyed that.... they pushed (HARD) classes in how to learn Greek.
I am fortunate that I live in an area of the country where there are a number of Orthodox Church, and many of them are in English. Orthodoxy is still young in this country, but it is growing and I hope to see what you experienced diminish as time goes on.  :)
The term planet earth is an innovation which has arisen in recent centuries with the error of heliocentrism.

If one wants to confess a pure doctrine of Orthodoxy, they should be careful not to refer to the earth as a planet, unlike the current Pope as well as Patriarch Kirill and Patriarch Bartholomew, who regularly speak in error when they refer to our planet earth.

Offline Josiah

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Re: Protestants here ...
« Reply #68 on: September 18, 2015, 01:22:02 PM »
I'd guess it has to do with two things:

1. Orthodoxy is much less visible. A lot of people don't even know we exist, or are only very vaguely aware of us.
2. Protestantism has had much, much more of a historical conflict with Catholicism, so Protestants are more likely to go there to argue.

I suspect both of those opinions are correct.


I'm a Lutheran convert from Catholicism.   I admit I know precious little about Orthodoxy; indeed the only thing I learned as a Catholic is that the Orthodox Church rebelled against God's Authority, God's Church and the Vicar of Christ; one teacher told us the Orthodox Church is the first Protestant Church because at its heart is a protest against the Church.   On the other hand, I noticed that the Catholic Church SEEMED to want to cozy up to the East (and that DID puzzle me).    That's pretty much it.  In my Lutheran church, the Orthodox Church also RARELY comes up (but I think always in a positive light).  I think for the VAST majority of Americans anyway, the Orthodox Church is just nowhere on the radar.   And when it DOES come up, it's likely misconceptions (Lutherans often have the same problem in the USA, unless one lives in Wisconsin or North Dakota!  I had a poster at a discussion forum ask me if Lutherans were all black.  WHAT, I asked (being that we're about the whitest denomination in American).  His reply, "Well, the founder was a Black Civil Rights Leader.....


I've been a part of some ecumenical discussion forums, and I've found that very few Orthodox are active in them.  And there is a tendency IN MY EXPERIENCE that what few post seem to follow the Catholics around and post "me, too."  I can't recall a single case - in over 12 years of my activity - when an Orthodox ever disagreed with a Catholic.   IMO, this has promoted a common opinion that Orthodox are just closet Catholics (and I admit, that was pretty much my opinion until I met my first Orthodox while I was in college).  IMO, the Orthodox have MUCH to say and I wish they had a stronger voice.   I think Christianity could likely gain much from that.   I think too of the THIRTY MILLION ex-Catholics just in the USA alone.... most seem to just become unchurches if not unchristian.  A FEW wander into Pentecostal or "Evangelical" church, lesser into mainstream Protestant (although half of the members of my LCMS parish are ex-Catholics).....  I wonder if the Orthodox could effectively reach out to them???   The only ones I see effectively reaching out to them in big numbers are the Pentecostal and Evangelical types (although I'm sure there are Orthodox parishes like my Lutheran one where the majority of people are ex-Catholics). 

The second comment is ESPECIALLY true for Lutherans.   Our Confessions, our theology - it's all vis-a-vis the CATHOLICISM (of that day, anyway).   We were booted out of The CATHOLIC Church. All the early, defining discussions were with CATHOLICS.   Even today, even in the USA, Lutheran theology is taught in that context (in spite of the probably more influential presence of "Evangelicalism" in America today).   I recall my doctrine course,  and the classes on the Eucharist.   I don't think Orthodox theology was even mentioned - at all.  RARELY and lightly was Zwinglian or Calvinist or modern "EVangelical" views discussed.  It was pretty much how 16th Century CATHOLICISM and Lutheranism disagree (I have a thread at this site on Lutheran/Orthodox/Catholic views).   Protestantism - directly or indirectly - flows out of Catholicism (it's just a historical fact).   In the Reformation, Orthodox (sadly) just wasn't in play.   My Greek Orthodox friend has often lamented this, and tells me that while there was evidently some Lutheran/Orthodox conversation at the time, she reports to me "they went badly - for all."  East and West had been apart for 5 centuries by then....  She tells me that by then, we weren't even speaking the same "language" - and neither "side" seemed willing to work at it.  She laments that.  Of course, it's been 10 centuries now.


NO disrespect to any is meant.... and I apologize if it is seen as implied.....  Just MY fallible, small half cent.....



Pax



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« Last Edit: September 18, 2015, 01:26:57 PM by Josiah »

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Re: Protestants here ...
« Reply #69 on: September 18, 2015, 01:47:39 PM »

I'm a Lutheran convert from Catholicism.   I admit I know precious little about Orthodoxy; indeed the only thing I learned as a Catholic is that the Orthodox Church rebelled against God's Authority, God's Church and the Vicar of Christ; one teacher told us the Orthodox Church is the first Protestant Church because at its heart is a protest against the Church.   

LOL, and we tend to have the same opinion about them.
The term planet earth is an innovation which has arisen in recent centuries with the error of heliocentrism.

If one wants to confess a pure doctrine of Orthodoxy, they should be careful not to refer to the earth as a planet, unlike the current Pope as well as Patriarch Kirill and Patriarch Bartholomew, who regularly speak in error when they refer to our planet earth.

Offline Peter J

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Re: Protestants here ...
« Reply #70 on: September 21, 2015, 08:05:43 PM »
Alright, I have a question for Anglicans, Lutherans, Methodists, Presbyters, Baptists, and Pentecostals.

I participate on a certain electronic discussion-oriented service run by Catholics. Now, without meaning to put too fine a point on it, I have noticed that large numbers of protestants participate there despite the fact that it isn't exactly very friendly toward protestants (nor any other non-Catholic Christians, or non-Christians).

With that in mind, it always puzzles me when I come here and see a much, much lower level of protestant participation. Do any of you have any idea of why that is?

IF I may venture a guess (and a personal 'reason')   And PLEASE, I mean no disrespect WHATSOEVER to any,  just trying to respond to the question... in FULL awareness that everything I here say could be absolutely wrong.


1.  Until I met a Greek Orthodox person in college, I don't think I knew a THING about Orthodoxy - other than what I was taught as a Catholic, namely, these were Eastern Catholics who stubbornly refused to submit to the Infallible Vicar of Christ but rebelled against the Church Jesus founded.  Indeed, I was told the Orthodox Church was the original Protestants.  That's what  I was told and I never heard a word otherwise.  I was quite stunned when I met my friend (I was already investigating Lutheranism by then).   I found MUCH of what she said quite interesting and refreshing.  As I gave my reasons for leaving the Catholic Church, she stunned me by AGREEING on virtually every point. 

2.  For many years before that, I was (way too) active at Christian discussion forums - most of the Catholic but a few interdenominational/ecumenical.   These had a lot of various Protestants and a lot of Catholics but very few Orthodox.  And what FEW Orthodox were there, they simply seemed to follow the Catholics around and post "me, too."   I don't recall a single case when an Orthodox poster ever disagreed with a Catholic one.   Not  once did any Catholic ever disagree with any Orthodox, either although usually the Catholics just ignored the Orthodox posters.  This gave me the impression that the Orthodox were Catholics who worshiped in languages other the English... I didn't know how to incorporate that with what I had been told that the Orthodox were the original Protestants who rebelled against God's Church and the Authority of Christ on Earth.

3.  In my discussions with my Greek Orthodox friend..... and 3 different  Orthodox pastors that she has directed  me to..... I've come to embrace that 1200 years of separation has resulting in some very different ways of approaching these things.   She speaks often of very different paradigms that makes conversations difficult.   She stressed that in her converstations with "Western" Chrstians, there's much "talking past" each other.   Such is always the fault of both sides.

4.  Roughly about the same time as I met my Greek friend, I began attending the "Greek Festival" at the local Greek Orthodox Church.  It's a BIG, BIG community event.  Greek foods, Greek dancers, Greek venders, Greek desserts, even Greek wine and beer (who would have known there is Greek beer!).   I love the event and go just about every year.   I love the food, the kids are so adorable to watch dance, I get out there on the floor and TRY to do that line dance.   And every year, the pastor does a tour of the church and gives a little talk about Orthodoxy.   MY impressions of all this is that the Greek Orthodox Church is very, very, very GREEK.   The program was full of ads about GREEK things.  It gave the names of the leaders of the church - nearly all had GREEK names.   It plugged classed in learning to speak GREEK.  And the pastor's talk - it STRESSED Greek.  Greek this, Greek that.   I've heard him 3 or 4 times now, and I don't recall him mentioning Christ or the Eucharist or mercy.... just a lot about what GREEKS do, this is GREEK worship.  One year, I  remember someone raising their hand to ask a question and he okayed that; the question was why the Greek Church left the Catholic Church (I'm SURE the questioner meant no offense - just YET ANOTHER ignorant Catholic, told EXACTLY what I was).   He was obviously disturbed by the question but realize no offense was meant and so smiled nicely and said, "It's complex."   That's all he said., that's exactly what he said.   The whole point I got was:  this is for Greeks.   I'm a blonde/blue German/American.   Oh, and he had this big, thick beard - and I can't grow a beard (hardly anything there - and it's blonde so you can't see it IF I could grow one!).  This is NOT for us.  That is the powerful, powerful message I got.  Perhaps I misunderstood.

Again PLEASE, PLEASE I mean no disrespect whatsoever.... and ONLY sharing my feelings (in full acceptance they could be wrong).



Pax



- Josiah

Thanks for your thoughts, Josiah. At the moment what strikes me most (I'll probably post more tomorrow ... I've been trying to pace myself in terms of participation of fora) is this: I really admire the Orthodox for not proselytizing, but I can't believe that the priest didn't say any more than "it's complicated". At the very very least I think he could have said the old "We didn't leave them, they left us".
- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)

Offline Minnesotan

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Re: Protestants here ...
« Reply #71 on: September 21, 2015, 08:13:35 PM »
I think sadly, that is the impression that all too many get when visiting some of the more ethnic parishes, and Greeks tend to be more ethnically focused than other jurisdications. I would venture to say that you would probably have had a significantly different experience if you had attended an Orthodox Church of America parish or an Antiochian Archdiocese parish. All of them are in communion with one another, but some are much more accustomed to "regular Americans" than others. Our parish, for example, has the liturgy entirely in English. There is no ethnic emphasis other than since our priest is ex-Lutheran, we have Oktoberfest in the fall.  :laugh:

I doubt hardly any Americans are aware that there are ANY Orthodox churches where English is used.  I certainly didn't (and there are none known to me where I live).  The Greek Orthodox one is the only one around.  NO ONE at that Orthodox conveyed that.... they pushed (HARD) classes in how to learn Greek.
I am fortunate that I live in an area of the country where there are a number of Orthodox Church, and many of them are in English. Orthodoxy is still young in this country, but it is growing and I hope to see what you experienced diminish as time goes on.  :)

Orthodoxy seems to be following the same trajectory (in regards to its ethnic origins) that Lutheranism did, only it's about 25 to 50 years behind the curve. Lutheranism was for a very long time seen as an "ethnic" church (for Germans and Scandinavians, but not Anglos), and worship in non-English languages was the norm at first. Also there was the fact that it's usually much more "high-church" than Anglophone Protestants are used to. It wasn't until around the 1950s or 60s that this began to change and the Lutheran churches became more "American".

For Orthodoxy on the other hand, this change is going on right now. The EO might be slightly ahead of the OO in this regard, though there is also huge variation between jurisdictions.
I'm not going to be posting as much on OC.Net as before. I might stop in once in a while though. But I've come to realize that real life is more important.

Offline JTLoganville

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Re: Protestants here ...
« Reply #72 on: September 21, 2015, 08:43:46 PM »
Orthodoxy seems to be following the same trajectory (in regards to its ethnic origins) that Lutheranism did, only it's about 25 to 50 years behind the curve. Lutheranism was for a very long time seen as an "ethnic" church (for Germans and Scandinavians, but not Anglos), and worship in non-English languages was the norm at first. Also there was the fact that it's usually much more "high-church" than Anglophone Protestants are used to. It wasn't until around the 1950s or 60s that this began to change and the Lutheran churches became more "American".

For Orthodoxy on the other hand, this change is going on right now. The EO might be slightly ahead of the OO in this regard, though there is also huge variation between jurisdictions.

As a former Lutheran from an ethnically German region:  Spot on except for the time line. 

Ethnic Orthodox are about 100 years behind the Lutherans.  Germanic Lutherans learned to speak English in a hurry during WWI and the placed the American flag in the sanctuary to "prove" their patriotism.

Some of the Germanic Lutherans had been in the US for over 130 years in the late 19th century and still wrote their congregation governing documents in German.  By the time of WWI many had been here for close to 175 years.

Offline Daedelus1138

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Re: Protestants here ...
« Reply #73 on: May 26, 2016, 03:34:49 AM »
Mainline Protestantism is not nearly as juridical as folks here want to suggest.  It's true its still more juridical than Orthodoxy, but its far less juridical than Roman Catholicism.