Author Topic: Baptized Greek Orthodox-- Attending "Harvest Bible Chapel" for 2 months.  (Read 544 times)

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Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Quote
Congregational Government is From Satan?

“Congregational Government is From Satan” was the title of an inflammatory blog post by James MacDonald, founder and lead elder of Harvest Bible Chapel.
...
Mr. MacDonald’s first point of why our form of church government is from the devil was because “congregational meetings are forums for division”.  While this may be a true point, it is essentially a moot point.  The devil can use any situation to divide, whether it be a committee meeting, business meeting, or church picnic.  The trick James did here was to contrast  divisive congregational business meetings with a supposed non-divisive elder board.  This implies that elder boards are not divisive, but is this an accurate claim? ... MacDonald made a public apology as well and, though it remains to be seen if anyone has really changed, he did issue a follow up blog post on April 16, 2015 entitled “Elder Rule Church Government is From Satan Too.”
What About Love?
MacDonald’s original outburst against congregationalism is echoed in our church by some today.   They argue from the same false premise, that it is used by Satan to divide.
http://churchfight.com/elder-rule-failure-harvest-bible-chapel

From the founder of Harvest Bible Church that is based on a system of "elders":
Quote
James MacDonald Harvest Bible Chapel Excommunication

'We believe that the Bible that the authority of the church is vested in the elders.  And that when the elders speak collectively in agreement, they speak for God to our church.'

'publicizing viewpoints rejected by the elder majority for any reason is Satanic to the core'
Video:
https://archive.org/details/JamesMacDonaldHarvastBibleChapel

This all sounds like the sort of judgment Sinful Hypocrite thinks he perceives among the Orthodox and yet he is (willfully?) blind to it as it pertains to Harvest Bible Chapel.  I wonder why?
Worship is theology, so a church which brings Evangelical and Charismatic "praise & worship" into its corporate life is no longer Orthodox.  It is, by definition, heterodox.  Those "Orthodox" leaders who make theological arguments for the incorporation of heteropraxis into the life of the Church are heretics.

http://returntoorthodoxy.com/

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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This situation was already poisoned, thus the "Satan" thing

And where precisely do you think the thread became poisoned? From what I can tell, it was poisoned from the outset.  The first post was deliberately challenging and provocative.  I agree with the assessments of Porter O'Doran and TheTrisagion on this score.  As the latter states most succinctly, the OP has come here to defend himself preemptively to a bunch of strangers whom he knows have bound themselves to another faith tradition and community.  One might say, with a bit of a chip on his shoulder, especially given his history of being deliberately provocative on this very subject in the past.  He has a bee in his bonnet about the Orthodox Church's claim of being the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.  He thinks it is judgmental, pharisaical, and wrong, and he condemns in the harshest pseudo-Biblical terms anyone who attempts to uphold the Orthodox position on this matter, even when, like rakovsky, they are being kind and inoffensive.

I don't see how you can say:

I think his heart is/was in the right place to a large degree.

Especially when his very first reply in the post after the OP, to xO4Cx's very inoffensive reply, was so defensive and borderline harsh.

I don't see the problem, as long as you don't adopt their ideology.

Their ideology is the same as what Jesus taught in the Bible. You are mistaken if you think there is something wrong with what the Bible teaches. Otherwise you just do not understand and I forgive you.

Maybe you should clarify what Ideology you do not accept.
And if you never went to the place you cannot know what that is in the first place.

It is patently obvious that Sinful Hypocrite arrived ready for battle with the exclusivist Orthodox Pharisees that he has created in his mind, whether they actually exist or not.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2017, 09:37:41 AM by Antonious Nikolas »
Worship is theology, so a church which brings Evangelical and Charismatic "praise & worship" into its corporate life is no longer Orthodox.  It is, by definition, heterodox.  Those "Orthodox" leaders who make theological arguments for the incorporation of heteropraxis into the life of the Church are heretics.

http://returntoorthodoxy.com/

Offline Opus118

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This situation was already poisoned, thus the "Satan" thing

And where precisely do you think the thread became poisoned? From what I can tell, it was poisoned from the outset.  The first post was deliberately challenging and provocative.  I agree with the assessments of Porter O'Doran and TheTrisagion on this score.  As the latter states most succinctly, the OP has come here to defend himself preemptively to a bunch of strangers whom he knows have bound themselves to another faith tradition and community.  One might say, with a bit of a chip on his shoulder, especially given his history of being deliberately provocative on this very subject in the past.  He has a bee in his bonnet about the Orthodox Church's claim of being the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.  He thinks it is judgmental, pharisaical, and wrong, and he condemns in the harshest pseudo-Biblical terms anyone who attempts to uphold the Orthodox position on this matter, even when, like rakovsky, they are being kind and inoffensive.

I don't see how you can say:

I think his heart is/was in the right place to a large degree.

Especially when his very first reply in the post after the OP, to xO4Cx's very inoffensive reply, was so defensive and borderline harsh.

I don't see the problem, as long as you don't adopt their ideology.

Their ideology is the same as what Jesus taught in the Bible. You are mistaken if you think there is something wrong with what the Bible teaches. Otherwise you just do not understand and I forgive you.

Maybe you should clarify what Ideology you do not accept.
And if you never went to the place you cannot know what that is in the first place.

It is patently obvious that Sinful Hypocrite arrived ready for battle with the exclusivist Orthodox Pharisees that he has created in his mind, whether they actually exist or not.

I am sorry AN, I wasn't clear. I am not referring to this thread. This thread is the result, not the cause. I did not participate in the prior thread(s), I did not see how I could change things so late in the game.

"Mi tío es enfermo, pero la carretera es verde!" - old Chilean saying

Offline rakovsky

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Protestantism has some appeal to some people, and I can see why. With Protestantism, you can make up your own version of Christianity and don't have to worry about bishops or other Christians telling you that you are wrong. You can start your own "denomination" (sect) and as far as Protestantism goes, your new denomination is wholly legitimate.

So if you want everyone to talk in tongues every Sunday, or you want to ban all religious pictures, or you don't like Divine Liturgy because it is boring for you and you want to have worship without it, then you can start your own denomination and do those things.

Maybe something similar going on here.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2017, 10:00:27 AM by rakovsky »

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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This situation was already poisoned, thus the "Satan" thing

And where precisely do you think the thread became poisoned? From what I can tell, it was poisoned from the outset.  The first post was deliberately challenging and provocative.  I agree with the assessments of Porter O'Doran and TheTrisagion on this score.  As the latter states most succinctly, the OP has come here to defend himself preemptively to a bunch of strangers whom he knows have bound themselves to another faith tradition and community.  One might say, with a bit of a chip on his shoulder, especially given his history of being deliberately provocative on this very subject in the past.  He has a bee in his bonnet about the Orthodox Church's claim of being the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.  He thinks it is judgmental, pharisaical, and wrong, and he condemns in the harshest pseudo-Biblical terms anyone who attempts to uphold the Orthodox position on this matter, even when, like rakovsky, they are being kind and inoffensive.

I don't see how you can say:

I think his heart is/was in the right place to a large degree.

Especially when his very first reply in the post after the OP, to xO4Cx's very inoffensive reply, was so defensive and borderline harsh.

I don't see the problem, as long as you don't adopt their ideology.

Their ideology is the same as what Jesus taught in the Bible. You are mistaken if you think there is something wrong with what the Bible teaches. Otherwise you just do not understand and I forgive you.

Maybe you should clarify what Ideology you do not accept.
And if you never went to the place you cannot know what that is in the first place.

It is patently obvious that Sinful Hypocrite arrived ready for battle with the exclusivist Orthodox Pharisees that he has created in his mind, whether they actually exist or not.

I am sorry AN, I wasn't clear. I am not referring to this thread. This thread is the result, not the cause. I did not participate in the prior thread(s), I did not see how I could change things so late in the game.

I understand now.  Thank you for clarifying, Opus.  :)

I am still not sure I agree that oc.net is a poisonous environment for people who have legitimate questions and concerns about the Orthodox Faith or the Orthodox stance on certain matters.  I do think that when people come onto the forum and attempt to challenge the Orthodox perspective - especially in a provocative fashion - they should not be surprised when we fail to fall at their feet and proclaim them a prophet who has awakened us from our Pharisaical stupor.  "How could we have been so blind?!?  The Fathers were mistaken!!!  All Christians are one Church after all!!!"  Yeah, sure.  ::)

I must confess that I find self-styled internet prophets - whatever their particular cause might be, even if it's one I agree with - to be irksome; most especially when they employ flowery, pseudo-Biblical language, like they want us to think they are some dreadlocked hermit who ambled down from their usual seclusion on the top of Mount Sanctimonious to bless us with their rarified wisdom when in reality they are usually a suburban fat guy with Netflix membership, a Tommy Bahama shirt with pit stains, a TGI Friday's discount card, and a penchant for Michelob Ultra and Sports Center.  I think that such Macy's Thanksgiving Day balloons will benefit from a good deflating as often as they bloviate across our boards.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2017, 10:36:30 AM by Antonious Nikolas »
Worship is theology, so a church which brings Evangelical and Charismatic "praise & worship" into its corporate life is no longer Orthodox.  It is, by definition, heterodox.  Those "Orthodox" leaders who make theological arguments for the incorporation of heteropraxis into the life of the Church are heretics.

http://returntoorthodoxy.com/

Offline Mor Ephrem

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