Author Topic: Old Believers and Orthodoxy  (Read 3586 times)

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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #225 on: Yesterday at 12:17:56 PM »
Don't you see how easily a Protestant can use that to justify their own views, though? "We have Jesus as a High Priest, we don't need your earthly priests and rituals. The Church has always had its High Priest in Heaven."

It seems obvious to me that the priestless Old Belief was predicated on the idea that the Parousia was literally a couple of years away and Alexis I was the final Antichrist. It simply was not designed to become a normative way of life. Trying to live it as such is like endless spiritual triage.

They've said the same things about early Christianity: that it was based on the expectation of imminent parousia. I don't find that implausible: the Christian way of life was never "normal".

Only it is contradicted in St. Peter, viz.: "There shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, and saying, Where is the promise of his coming? ... But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." Be careful listening to "they," who have so often been enemies of the Church.
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Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #226 on: Yesterday at 01:07:49 PM »
Don't you see how easily a Protestant can use that to justify their own views, though? "We have Jesus as a High Priest, we don't need your earthly priests and rituals. The Church has always had its High Priest in Heaven."

It seems obvious to me that the priestless Old Belief was predicated on the idea that the Parousia was literally a couple of years away and Alexis I was the final Antichrist. It simply was not designed to become a normative way of life. Trying to live it as such is like endless spiritual triage.

They've said the same things about early Christianity: that it was based on the expectation of imminent parousia. I don't find that implausible: the Christian way of life was never "normal".

Only it is contradicted in St. Peter, viz.: "There shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, and saying, Where is the promise of his coming? ... But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." Be careful listening to "they," who have so often been enemies of the Church.

Sometimes I get the impression you deliberately miss the point simply in order to be confrontational.

Offline Hopeful Faithful

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Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #227 on: Yesterday at 03:23:30 PM »
Between the deaths of Pavel of Kolomna and Alexander of Viatsk in the first few decades of the late 17th century (neither of whom, as far as I am aware, ever actually separated from the New Rite Church) and the acceptance of Ambrose of Bosnia by the Old Ritualists at Belaya Krinitsa in the mid-19th century, who were your bishops?

Good health to us all.

As I creep along through the posts in this topic I am seeing that there really is a lot to be mindful of here.

In my reflection in the area of your question, and it began for me personally back in 1995, so it has been a couple decades of very devoted researching, I would first say that there are in fact many more bishops than has been suggested. There are in fact, (if unless I am stretching my understanding of reality?), different applications of what a bishop actually is, according to the good witness of sound Christians down through the ages.

Here is a point I would bring up for now, in my attempt to get through this.

Avvakum is mitred clergy, this brings him into the liturgical function of a bishop.

There are a host of such genuine bishops during the time in this particular question.

Further, what must be taken into account, (unless there is some reason for me to be dissuaded?), is that this was a time of extreme aggressiveness on the part of what might be called the state church, a time of oppressive inquisitional type actions like that in the known history of the Latin Church.

These two things drastically change the tone of such a question as I quote above in the first place, and I would present here that due to these things such a question is really not a good faith based question to begin with and is not appropriate.

I will now disregard that question as invalid and simply move along to another post.

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Offline вєликаго

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Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #228 on: Yesterday at 03:32:30 PM »
Don't you see how easily a Protestant can use that to justify their own views, though? "We have Jesus as a High Priest, we don't need your earthly priests and rituals. The Church has always had its High Priest in Heaven."

It seems obvious to me that the priestless Old Belief was predicated on the idea that the Parousia was literally a couple of years away and Alexis I was the final Antichrist. It simply was not designed to become a normative way of life. Trying to live it as such is like endless spiritual triage.

I disagree.
St. Meletius the Confessor – Submit not yourselves to monastics, nor to presbyters, who teach lawless things and evilly propound them. And why do I say only monastics or presbyters? Follow not even after bishops who guilefully exhort you to do and say and believe things that are not profitable. What

Offline kelly

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Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #229 on: Yesterday at 03:55:57 PM »
Don't you see how easily a Protestant can use that to justify their own views, though? "We have Jesus as a High Priest, we don't need your earthly priests and rituals. The Church has always had its High Priest in Heaven."

It seems obvious to me that the priestless Old Belief was predicated on the idea that the Parousia was literally a couple of years away and Alexis I was the final Antichrist. It simply was not designed to become a normative way of life. Trying to live it as such is like endless spiritual triage.

I disagree.

Why? I think he makes a good point.
"But we must live in the world, having peace in our soul. We must live amidst strangers; we must suffer, struggle, and firmly believe. We must seek our consolation in prayer and not doubt the love and compassion of God. He is above everyone and everything."

Offline вєликаго

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Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #230 on: Yesterday at 04:00:02 PM »
Don't you see how easily a Protestant can use that to justify their own views, though? "We have Jesus as a High Priest, we don't need your earthly priests and rituals. The Church has always had its High Priest in Heaven."

It seems obvious to me that the priestless Old Belief was predicated on the idea that the Parousia was literally a couple of years away and Alexis I was the final Antichrist. It simply was not designed to become a normative way of life. Trying to live it as such is like endless spiritual triage.

I disagree.

Why? I think he makes a good point.

 Why should I imagine how the protestants use the Truth amiss? They do after all read the Lord's words, but they do so amiss. Pointing out that the Protestants can use honest and true facts amiss, does not incline me to believe, what I perceive, as a sarcastic opinion.
St. Meletius the Confessor – Submit not yourselves to monastics, nor to presbyters, who teach lawless things and evilly propound them. And why do I say only monastics or presbyters? Follow not even after bishops who guilefully exhort you to do and say and believe things that are not profitable. What

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #231 on: Today at 12:08:48 AM »
Don't you see how easily a Protestant can use that to justify their own views, though? "We have Jesus as a High Priest, we don't need your earthly priests and rituals. The Church has always had its High Priest in Heaven."

It seems obvious to me that the priestless Old Belief was predicated on the idea that the Parousia was literally a couple of years away and Alexis I was the final Antichrist. It simply was not designed to become a normative way of life. Trying to live it as such is like endless spiritual triage.

They've said the same things about early Christianity: that it was based on the expectation of imminent parousia. I don't find that implausible: the Christian way of life was never "normal".

Yes, but St. Paul did not advise the Thessalonians to dump all ecclesiastical order and go into bare survival mode because of this imminence. The days are long gone when an Old Believer has to hide in the woods from the Cossacks.

It reminds me of Pentecostals who constantly claim that "God is doing a new thing."
Every day we should hear at least one little song, read one good poem, see one exquisite picture, and, if possible, speak a few sensible words. -Goethe

I once heard a monk say, “The person of prayer does not need to go any further than his own heart to find the source of all violence in the world.” -Fr. Stephen Freeman

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #232 on: Today at 12:12:45 AM »
Don't you see how easily a Protestant can use that to justify their own views, though? "We have Jesus as a High Priest, we don't need your earthly priests and rituals. The Church has always had its High Priest in Heaven."

It seems obvious to me that the priestless Old Belief was predicated on the idea that the Parousia was literally a couple of years away and Alexis I was the final Antichrist. It simply was not designed to become a normative way of life. Trying to live it as such is like endless spiritual triage.

I disagree.

Why? I think he makes a good point.

 Why should I imagine how the protestants use the Truth amiss? They do after all read the Lord's words, but they do so amiss. Pointing out that the Protestants can use honest and true facts amiss, does not incline me to believe, what I perceive, as a sarcastic opinion.

No sarcasm at all. I'm dead serious. That very "all our priests/bishops are guiding us from Heaven" argument kills any reason at all to be Orthodox and not Protestant.
Every day we should hear at least one little song, read one good poem, see one exquisite picture, and, if possible, speak a few sensible words. -Goethe

I once heard a monk say, “The person of prayer does not need to go any further than his own heart to find the source of all violence in the world.” -Fr. Stephen Freeman

Offline вєликаго

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Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #233 on: Today at 12:32:36 AM »
Don't you see how easily a Protestant can use that to justify their own views, though? "We have Jesus as a High Priest, we don't need your earthly priests and rituals. The Church has always had its High Priest in Heaven."

It seems obvious to me that the priestless Old Belief was predicated on the idea that the Parousia was literally a couple of years away and Alexis I was the final Antichrist. It simply was not designed to become a normative way of life. Trying to live it as such is like endless spiritual triage.

I disagree.

Why? I think he makes a good point.

 Why should I imagine how the protestants use the Truth amiss? They do after all read the Lord's words, but they do so amiss. Pointing out that the Protestants can use honest and true facts amiss, does not incline me to believe, what I perceive, as a sarcastic opinion.

No sarcasm at all. I'm dead serious. That very "all our priests/bishops are guiding us from Heaven" argument kills any reason at all to be Orthodox and not Protestant.

You clearly demonstrate in that comment a faith other then Orthodox.
St. Meletius the Confessor – Submit not yourselves to monastics, nor to presbyters, who teach lawless things and evilly propound them. And why do I say only monastics or presbyters? Follow not even after bishops who guilefully exhort you to do and say and believe things that are not profitable. What

Offline вєликаго

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Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #234 on: Today at 12:33:32 AM »
Don't you see how easily a Protestant can use that to justify their own views, though? "We have Jesus as a High Priest, we don't need your earthly priests and rituals. The Church has always had its High Priest in Heaven."

It seems obvious to me that the priestless Old Belief was predicated on the idea that the Parousia was literally a couple of years away and Alexis I was the final Antichrist. It simply was not designed to become a normative way of life. Trying to live it as such is like endless spiritual triage.

They've said the same things about early Christianity: that it was based on the expectation of imminent parousia. I don't find that implausible: the Christian way of life was never "normal".

Yes, but St. Paul did not advise the Thessalonians to dump all ecclesiastical order and go into bare survival mode because of this imminence. The days are long gone when an Old Believer has to hide in the woods from the Cossacks.

It reminds me of Pentecostals who constantly claim that "God is doing a new thing."

You have it backwards, the Nikonians must rejoin the Old Believers, the Old Believers are the church, therefore its not they who need to repent and rejoin the church.
St. Meletius the Confessor – Submit not yourselves to monastics, nor to presbyters, who teach lawless things and evilly propound them. And why do I say only monastics or presbyters? Follow not even after bishops who guilefully exhort you to do and say and believe things that are not profitable. What

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #235 on: Today at 12:35:30 AM »
Don't you see how easily a Protestant can use that to justify their own views, though? "We have Jesus as a High Priest, we don't need your earthly priests and rituals. The Church has always had its High Priest in Heaven."

It seems obvious to me that the priestless Old Belief was predicated on the idea that the Parousia was literally a couple of years away and Alexis I was the final Antichrist. It simply was not designed to become a normative way of life. Trying to live it as such is like endless spiritual triage.

They've said the same things about early Christianity: that it was based on the expectation of imminent parousia. I don't find that implausible: the Christian way of life was never "normal".

Yes, but St. Paul did not advise the Thessalonians to dump all ecclesiastical order and go into bare survival mode because of this imminence. The days are long gone when an Old Believer has to hide in the woods from the Cossacks.

It reminds me of Pentecostals who constantly claim that "God is doing a new thing."

You have it backwards, the Nikonians must rejoin the Old Believers, the Old Believers are the church, therefore its not they who need to repent and rejoin the church.

If that were to happen, would you all have priesthood again, or just a bunch of laymen with a lot of useless costumes?
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

Mor no longer posts on OCNet.  He follows threads, posts his responses daily, occasionally starts threads, and responds to private messages when and as he wants.  But he really isn't around anymore.


Offline вєликаго

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Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #236 on: Today at 12:39:19 AM »
Don't you see how easily a Protestant can use that to justify their own views, though? "We have Jesus as a High Priest, we don't need your earthly priests and rituals. The Church has always had its High Priest in Heaven."

It seems obvious to me that the priestless Old Belief was predicated on the idea that the Parousia was literally a couple of years away and Alexis I was the final Antichrist. It simply was not designed to become a normative way of life. Trying to live it as such is like endless spiritual triage.

They've said the same things about early Christianity: that it was based on the expectation of imminent parousia. I don't find that implausible: the Christian way of life was never "normal".

Yes, but St. Paul did not advise the Thessalonians to dump all ecclesiastical order and go into bare survival mode because of this imminence. The days are long gone when an Old Believer has to hide in the woods from the Cossacks.

It reminds me of Pentecostals who constantly claim that "God is doing a new thing."

You have it backwards, the Nikonians must rejoin the Old Believers, the Old Believers are the church, therefore its not they who need to repent and rejoin the church.

If that were to happen, would you all have priesthood again, or just a bunch of laymen with a lot of useless costumes?

I'm not taking this libel seriously, you demonstrate not only libel in this comment, but ignorance.
St. Meletius the Confessor – Submit not yourselves to monastics, nor to presbyters, who teach lawless things and evilly propound them. And why do I say only monastics or presbyters? Follow not even after bishops who guilefully exhort you to do and say and believe things that are not profitable. What

Offline kelly

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Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #237 on: Today at 12:55:41 AM »
A question =/= libel
"But we must live in the world, having peace in our soul. We must live amidst strangers; we must suffer, struggle, and firmly believe. We must seek our consolation in prayer and not doubt the love and compassion of God. He is above everyone and everything."

Offline вєликаго

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Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #238 on: Today at 12:58:25 AM »
A question =/= libel

It does in this case.
St. Meletius the Confessor – Submit not yourselves to monastics, nor to presbyters, who teach lawless things and evilly propound them. And why do I say only monastics or presbyters? Follow not even after bishops who guilefully exhort you to do and say and believe things that are not profitable. What

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #239 on: Today at 01:00:38 AM »
You have it backwards, the Nikonians must rejoin the Old Believers, the Old Believers are the church, therefore its not they who need to repent and rejoin the church.

If that were to happen, would you all have priesthood again, or just a bunch of laymen with a lot of useless costumes?

I'm not taking this libel seriously, you demonstrate not only libel in this comment, but ignorance.

No one's persecuting you, buddy, so knock it off.  My question was serious and not "libel"...or, for that matter, "slander", "calumny", "detraction", or any other fancy word you'd like to use improperly. 
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

Mor no longer posts on OCNet.  He follows threads, posts his responses daily, occasionally starts threads, and responds to private messages when and as he wants.  But he really isn't around anymore.


Offline вєликаго

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Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #240 on: Today at 01:07:01 AM »
You have it backwards, the Nikonians must rejoin the Old Believers, the Old Believers are the church, therefore its not they who need to repent and rejoin the church.

If that were to happen, would you all have priesthood again, or just a bunch of laymen with a lot of useless costumes?

I'm not taking this libel seriously, you demonstrate not only libel in this comment, but ignorance.

No one's persecuting you, buddy, so knock it off.  My question was serious and not "libel"...or, for that matter, "slander", "calumny", "detraction", or any other fancy word you'd like to use improperly.

I disagree, that is exactly what you are doing, even this claim of yours, that I use the term libel or slander improperly is more of the same.
St. Meletius the Confessor – Submit not yourselves to monastics, nor to presbyters, who teach lawless things and evilly propound them. And why do I say only monastics or presbyters? Follow not even after bishops who guilefully exhort you to do and say and believe things that are not profitable. What

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #241 on: Today at 01:18:10 AM »
You have it backwards, the Nikonians must rejoin the Old Believers, the Old Believers are the church, therefore its not they who need to repent and rejoin the church.

If that were to happen, would you all have priesthood again, or just a bunch of laymen with a lot of useless costumes?

I'm not taking this libel seriously, you demonstrate not only libel in this comment, but ignorance.

No one's persecuting you, buddy, so knock it off.  My question was serious and not "libel"...or, for that matter, "slander", "calumny", "detraction", or any other fancy word you'd like to use improperly.

I disagree, that is exactly what you are doing, even this claim of yours, that I use the term libel or slander improperly is more of the same.

I'm pretty sure I am more of an expert on me than you are.  And apparently, on English as well.   
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

Mor no longer posts on OCNet.  He follows threads, posts his responses daily, occasionally starts threads, and responds to private messages when and as he wants.  But he really isn't around anymore.


Offline Volnutt

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Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #242 on: Today at 01:22:47 AM »
Don't you see how easily a Protestant can use that to justify their own views, though? "We have Jesus as a High Priest, we don't need your earthly priests and rituals. The Church has always had its High Priest in Heaven."

It seems obvious to me that the priestless Old Belief was predicated on the idea that the Parousia was literally a couple of years away and Alexis I was the final Antichrist. It simply was not designed to become a normative way of life. Trying to live it as such is like endless spiritual triage.

I disagree.

Why? I think he makes a good point.

 Why should I imagine how the protestants use the Truth amiss? They do after all read the Lord's words, but they do so amiss. Pointing out that the Protestants can use honest and true facts amiss, does not incline me to believe, what I perceive, as a sarcastic opinion.

No sarcasm at all. I'm dead serious. That very "all our priests/bishops are guiding us from Heaven" argument kills any reason at all to be Orthodox and not Protestant.

You clearly demonstrate in that comment a faith other then Orthodox.

Well, fair enough seeing as I'm not yet Orthodox. I think you're betraying your own religion far more than I could.
Every day we should hear at least one little song, read one good poem, see one exquisite picture, and, if possible, speak a few sensible words. -Goethe

I once heard a monk say, “The person of prayer does not need to go any further than his own heart to find the source of all violence in the world.” -Fr. Stephen Freeman

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #243 on: Today at 01:24:17 AM »
You have it backwards, the Nikonians must rejoin the Old Believers, the Old Believers are the church, therefore its not they who need to repent and rejoin the church.

If that were to happen, would you all have priesthood again, or just a bunch of laymen with a lot of useless costumes?

I'm not taking this libel seriously, you demonstrate not only libel in this comment, but ignorance.

No one's persecuting you, buddy, so knock it off.  My question was serious and not "libel"...or, for that matter, "slander", "calumny", "detraction", or any other fancy word you'd like to use improperly.

I disagree, that is exactly what you are doing, even this claim of yours, that I use the term libel or slander improperly is more of the same.
How is it libel when Mor is doing to you the very same thing you're doing to us? If Mor is libeling you, then it's because you are libeling us.
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline вєликаго

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Re: Old Believers and Orthodoxy
« Reply #244 on: Today at 03:00:42 PM »
You have it backwards, the Nikonians must rejoin the Old Believers, the Old Believers are the church, therefore its not they who need to repent and rejoin the church.

If that were to happen, would you all have priesthood again, or just a bunch of laymen with a lot of useless costumes?

I'm not taking this libel seriously, you demonstrate not only libel in this comment, but ignorance.

No one's persecuting you, buddy, so knock it off.  My question was serious and not "libel"...or, for that matter, "slander", "calumny", "detraction", or any other fancy word you'd like to use improperly.

I disagree, that is exactly what you are doing, even this claim of yours, that I use the term libel or slander improperly is more of the same.
How is it libel when Mor is doing to you the very same thing you're doing to us? If Mor is libeling you, then it's because you are libeling us.

Not true, but your accusation is noted.
St. Meletius the Confessor – Submit not yourselves to monastics, nor to presbyters, who teach lawless things and evilly propound them. And why do I say only monastics or presbyters? Follow not even after bishops who guilefully exhort you to do and say and believe things that are not profitable. What