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Author Topic: Why does the Traditional Anglican Communion want to drown in the Tiber?  (Read 13293 times) Average Rating: 0
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ialmisry
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« on: December 01, 2007, 03:29:40 PM »

A lot of noise is being made about the TAC officially petitioning to be accepted by Rome, evidently as a special rite (sui juris doesn't seem to be a possibility, although they may be requesting it).

Any reason why they aren't seeking to be received as Western Rite Orthodox?
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« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2007, 04:04:39 PM »

Probably because they are Western (with Western rite Orthodoxy still being seen as an extension of the Eastern I suppose), would be my guess.  Plus, Rome is their mother Church from the old days (before Henry VIII and all that).
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« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2007, 06:16:33 PM »

A lot of noise is being made about the TAC officially petitioning to be accepted by Rome, evidently as a special rite (sui juris doesn't seem to be a possibility, although they may be requesting it).

Any reason why they aren't seeking to be received as Western Rite Orthodox?

I agree with Iambic Pen. I'd also like to add that the Western Rite Vicariate has done a lousy job of letting the world know they are out there. In spite of that, we've had a decent number of new parishes/missions in the past year or so, with two new ones in VA, one in TX, OK, AR and MI.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but we have more parishes and missions than the Anglican-use RC parishes and missions. In any case, I think alot of people in TAC just don't know enough about us or that we are even out there. If they did, they would see the AWRV as a better fit, for may reasons.

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« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2007, 02:16:12 AM »

A lot of noise is being made about the TAC officially petitioning to be accepted by Rome, evidently as a special rite (sui juris doesn't seem to be a possibility, although they may be requesting it).

Any reason why they aren't seeking to be received as Western Rite Orthodox?
OK. I was happy to hear about the Orthodox Western rite, as I thought that it might indicate that the Western rite (at least as it was either before Vatican II or as it was with the Anglicans)  with a few Orthodox modifications, such as extended epiclesis and no filioque was fully acceptable to the Orthodox Churches. However, I came across a pamphlet, written by an Orthodox priest, according to which he writes that the Western rite must be understood as a concession to those people who desire it, but should not be considered to be fully acceptable. And there have been discussions here on this board, that many Western devotions are problematic in light of Orthodox theology. Some people say they don't like them.
If that is the case, then perhaps the  Anglicans thought that they might be better received by Rome.
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« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2007, 02:30:48 AM »

The Bishop of Rome was their lawful patriarch. When were their fathers ever under Antioch?

And Stanley is right---it is hard to be fully Western in the EO church. I'd have considered joining it more when I was seeking if I didn't feel like I would have to give up a great deal of my and my forefathers' heritage to do it.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2007, 02:36:45 AM by lubeltri » Logged
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« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2007, 03:04:33 AM »

And Stanley is right---it is hard to be fully Western in the EO church.
Yes, because there are objections from the East concerning some Western Catholic devotions and the Western mindset. But in some sense it goes both ways. According to the pamphlet I read, the implication was that it is hard to be fully Eastern in a Western rite Church. 
« Last Edit: December 04, 2007, 03:05:42 AM by stanley123 » Logged
ialmisry
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« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2007, 06:50:50 AM »

OK. I was happy to hear about the Orthodox Western rite, as I thought that it might indicate that the Western rite (at least as it was either before Vatican II or as it was with the Anglicans)  with a few Orthodox modifications, such as extended epiclesis and no filioque was fully acceptable to the Orthodox Churches. However, I came across a pamphlet, written by an Orthodox priest, according to which he writes that the Western rite must be understood as a concession to those people who desire it, but should not be considered to be fully acceptable. And there have been discussions here on this board, that many Western devotions are problematic in light of Orthodox theology. Some people say they don't like them.
If that is the case, then perhaps the  Anglicans thought that they might be better received by Rome.

Yes, there are those who are against the Western Rite, thus proving that the Orthodox can be as dogmatic on externals as they accuse the proponents f Latinizations.  Sort of like the Old/New Calendar thing.

If they believe Vatican I, then by all means go to Rome.  If not, then they're making a mistake.

The Bishop of Rome was their lawful patriarch. When were their fathers ever under Antioch?

When they returned to Orthodoxy.

Quote
And Stanley is right---it is hard to be fully Western in the EO church. I'd have considered joining it more when I was seeking if I didn't feel like I would have to give up a great deal of my and my forefathers' heritage to do it.

Just heterodoxy.

I don't remember Jesus promoting the easy way.

And for the EASTERN Orthodox who make it unnecessarily hard, read Matthew 23 and replace "pharisee" with "ethnic"
« Last Edit: December 04, 2007, 06:57:26 AM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2007, 12:22:07 PM »

It looks like there are some in the Vatican who are opposed to receiving them:

Quote
One of the Vatican’s most senior cardinals has dismissed the idea that a breakaway group of Anglicans might be received into the Catholic Church en masse – despite Benedict XVI’s personal support for such a move.
Cardinal Walter Kasper, president of the Pontifical Council for Christian Unity, told The Catholic Herald: “It’s not our policy to bring that many Anglicans to Rome.”

[...]

The cardinal said on Monday: “We are on good terms with the Archbishop of Canterbury and as much as we can we are helping him to keep the Anglican community together.”

Source:  The Catholic Herald (UK) - http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/news/news_2.html
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« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2007, 12:37:07 PM »

His Grace Cardinal Kaspar's comment doesn't make sense, because, as far as I know, the Anglicans in question are already out of communion with Canterbury and have no interest in renewing that tie.
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« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2007, 12:46:12 PM »

His Grace Cardinal Kaspar's comment doesn't make sense, because, as far as I know, the Anglicans in question are already out of communion with Canterbury and have no interest in renewing that tie.

But he probably knew that the reporter likely wouldn't know the difference, which allowed for an appropriately cordial sound-bite while the Vatican considers how to handle the situation.
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« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2007, 01:12:18 PM »

Just heterodoxy.

That is rather simplistic.   There are other threads that have looked at some of this.  For many to 'swim the Bosporus' would be to leave more then the 'filoque' and a a few other bits.  When there is no WR or if it is denigrated or looked on as second-class so that there is no encouragement to keep it going, then it would mean leaving behind much that is good, that has meaning to them but that their new Church has no place for. 


With respect,

Ebor
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« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2007, 01:15:52 PM »

A lot of noise is being made about the TAC officially petitioning to be accepted by Rome, evidently as a special rite (sui juris doesn't seem to be a possibility, although they may be requesting it).

Any reason why they aren't seeking to be received as Western Rite Orthodox?

They may not know about it, there being large areas of the US where there are few or no EO parishes let along WRO ones.  Or it could be that they have been told things like "WRO is only until you're strong enough be become Byzantine in liturgy and custom." or "Western practices aren't part of being Orthodox".  Or there could be other reasons.

Ebor
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« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2007, 01:18:28 PM »

Well, the Catholic Church just prefers that these en masse communities be absorbed into existing parish and diocesan structures (according to geographical proximity). Undeniably, this is a weakness which has existed since the Episcopal Church went downhill and has not been rectified, until now.

I cannot say if the Western Rite Vicariate has not been doing a good job, but the growth must be congratulated. Nevertheless, more attempts must be made to reach out and understand what the Anglicans feel about Orthodoxy and the Western Rite. There are fears and gossip being spread about the Western Rite (especially by those who disagree with the Western Rite) like "it will die a slow death", "it's just temporary" etc, and that is what we need to address.

Also, I don't get the idea of why the Anglicans must go back only to Rome. What is wrong with being under Moscow or Antioch? Eventually, the head of the Church is still Christ and even the Patriarchs will attest to that. I'll bet top dollar for that.

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« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2007, 01:59:27 PM »

His Grace Cardinal Kaspar's comment doesn't make sense, because, as far as I know, the Anglicans in question are already out of communion with Canterbury and have no interest in renewing that tie.

I think it does makes sense but it has to be read with an understanding of the politics involved.


  • Regardless of whether or not the TAC is interested in renewing the tie with Canterbury, Cardinal Kaspar is a true believer when it comes to ecumenism and he probably views it as poaching.  It's irrelevant how the TAC views itself - all that matters is how Canterbury views them.

  • I take Cardinal Kaspar at his word and I have no doubt that he truly believes what he's said. Pope Benedict seems to be in favor of receiving them but no decision has been made. By commenting in a conservative Catholic newspaper, Cardinal Kaspar can telegraph his true feelings to the Pope while maintaining some wiggle room when the Pope rules the opposite way.  It also allows him to hold his head up the next time he takes tea at Lambeth Palace.

But he probably knew that the reporter likely wouldn't know the difference, which allowed for an appropriately cordial sound-bite while the Vatican considers how to handle the situation.

I think a Roman Cardinal would know the orientation of the Catholic Herald and, certainly, he would consider his words carefully before commenting.  That said, I agree with the second part of your analysis. I think he's setting himself up as the good cop (as far as Canterbury is concerned) in the classic good cop/bad cop scenario.

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« Reply #14 on: December 04, 2007, 02:00:19 PM »

What would St. Paul say to a group of Corinthians who didn't like their bishop in Corinth and asked to go under the authority of Galatia instead?

In this case, of course, the TAC does like their bishop in Rome. It describes itself as "an Anglican Church actually seeking full communion with the See of Peter because it believes that such unity is of the essence of the Church."

http://www.challengeonline.org/modules/news/article.php?storyid=106

They see this proposed union as a re-union following the tragic events of the Reformation. I don't understand the negative comments ("drown in the Tiber").
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« Reply #15 on: December 04, 2007, 02:25:48 PM »

It is much easier on an administrative level for this group to go under Rome. The only place in Orthodoxy that the WR exist in any numbers is in the Antiochian Archdiocese of North America. This group has parishes in places where you need to bring in the Patriarchs of Constantinople, Alexandria and Antioch in order to bring this group in as a whole.
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« Reply #16 on: December 04, 2007, 02:39:47 PM »

It is much easier on an administrative level for this group to go under Rome. The only place in Orthodoxy that the WR exist in any numbers is in the Antiochian Archdiocese of North America. This group has parishes in places where you need to bring in the Patriarchs of Constantinople, Alexandria and Antioch in order to bring this group in as a whole.


Sounds like we've got our work cut out for us if we want to keep the sheep from offering themselves up to the wolves.
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« Reply #17 on: December 04, 2007, 02:51:23 PM »

If they want to be Roman Catholics, let 'em go.
I'd prefer one Anglican convert to Orthodoxy by informed choice than a whole group convert simply because they suddenly think it might make a nice "alternative" to being under the Pope.
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« Reply #18 on: December 04, 2007, 04:25:34 PM »

They see this proposed union as a re-union following the tragic events of the Reformation. I don't understand the negative comments ("drown in the Tiber").
I quite agree with this.  Unless a Protestant holds some strong anti-Catholic bias (which, admittedly, many do), he or she is likely to look Rome-ward when looking for the ancient Church.  That is where the Protestant churches broke away from, and a Protestant who comes to realize the errors of the Reformation may come to believe the Catholic Church was right all along.
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« Reply #19 on: December 04, 2007, 09:14:55 PM »

....and a Protestant who comes to realize the errors of the Reformation may come to believe the Catholic Church was right all along.

Or, if not "right all along" (for who can deny the abuses back then?), then at least "not as bad as previously thought".
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« Reply #20 on: December 05, 2007, 12:12:09 AM »

Or, if not "right all along" (for who can deny the abuses back then?), then at least "not as bad as previously thought".

Or: 'Still bad, but not as bad as it used to be...' (to which I would reply: 'Check again!').  Wink
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« Reply #21 on: December 05, 2007, 05:11:15 AM »

...who can deny the abuses back then?...
And judging from today's newspapers,  who can deny the abuses today?
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« Reply #22 on: December 05, 2007, 09:06:21 AM »

 Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked

What?! The Church is full of sinners?!
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« Reply #23 on: December 07, 2007, 10:24:34 PM »

A lot of noise is being made about the TAC officially petitioning to be accepted by Rome, evidently as a special rite (sui juris doesn't seem to be a possibility, although they may be requesting it).

Any reason why they aren't seeking to be received as Western Rite Orthodox?

I know a good bit about this group.

The reason is that they believe in the the Roman Catholic magisterium, they believe in the divinely established primacy of the Pope, and they believe in his infallibility. Only a minority of people in the TAC view these things as mere theologumena. Basically they think its sinful [though, somehow historically justifiable!] to be out of communion with Rome. Thats why.

Note: What I said here is strictly facts that I heard from TAC members themselves online. It is not meant to be derogatory to the TAC in any way.
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« Reply #24 on: December 09, 2007, 08:54:26 PM »

What would St. Paul say to a group of Corinthians who didn't like their bishop in Corinth and asked to go under the authority of Galatia instead?

In this case, of course, the TAC does like their bishop in Rome. It describes itself as "an Anglican Church actually seeking full communion with the See of Peter because it believes that such unity is of the essence of the Church."

http://www.challengeonline.org/modules/news/article.php?storyid=106

They see this proposed union as a re-union following the tragic events of the Reformation. I don't understand the negative comments ("drown in the Tiber").

IF they like the bishop in Rome (how is he THEIR bishop?), and truly 'believe that such unity is of the essence of the Church,' then what's the hold up?  Why aren't they submittin'?

I don't understand the negative comments ("drown in the Tiber").

I quite agree with this.  Unless a Protestant holds some strong anti-Catholic bias (which, admittedly, many do), he or she is likely to look Rome-ward when looking for the ancient Church.  That is where the Protestant churches broke away from, and a Protestant who comes to realize the errors of the Reformation may come to believe the Catholic Church was right all along.

Well, if that's so, then there should be no hold up.  If they like Rome's errors, why hold off?  They could always continue as another Protestant denomination (as long as that lasts), but since they seem intent on joining some Church, why the hesitation, if Rome is the only answer?

As far as drowning, I don't see them getting sui juris status, whatever that entitles you to, and at best only a rite.  So it would seem they would be destined to be absorbed into the Latin rite.  If they like that fate, go ahead for the swim.

If they want to be Roman Catholics, let 'em go.
I'd prefer one Anglican convert to Orthodoxy by informed choice than a whole group convert simply because they suddenly think it might make a nice "alternative" to being under the Pope.

Oh, yes.  By all means: if they think that submission to the pope of Rome, no matter what he teaches, is necessary for salvation, then Rome is where they belong. 

And if they think we're just the Catholic Church without a Pope, then we are not the place for them.

But an informed choice means that they know that not all roads back to the Apostolic Church go through Rome.

Btw the primate John Hepworth might have problems: he was ordained a priest by a bishop of the pope of Rome, then became Anglican, married, and then was ordained a bishop.
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« Reply #25 on: December 09, 2007, 08:59:24 PM »

That is rather simplistic.   There are other threads that have looked at some of this.  For many to 'swim the Bosporus' would be to leave more then the 'filoque' and a a few other bits.  When there is no WR or if it is denigrated or looked on as second-class so that there is no encouragement to keep it going, then it would mean leaving behind much that is good, that has meaning to them but that their new Church has no place for. 


With respect,

Ebor

Hence my reference to Matthew.  Rome is NOT the only ethnocentric patriarchate.
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« Reply #26 on: December 09, 2007, 10:50:12 PM »

Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked

What?! The Church is full of sinners?!

Cant think of a better place to be as a sinner than church. Grin
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« Reply #27 on: December 09, 2007, 11:00:07 PM »

Cant think of a better place to be as a sinner than church. Grin
I think it depends on the type of sin and the position in the Church.
For example, I don't think that the priesthood or any religious order is a good place in Church for those who are committing sin with young boys. And I don't agree that a serial killer or kleptomaniac should have any position of authority in Church. Etc.
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« Reply #28 on: December 09, 2007, 11:04:59 PM »

I think it depends on the type of sin and the position in the Church.
For example, I don't think that the priesthood or any religious order is a good place in Church for those who are committing sin with young boys. And I don't agree that a serial killer or kleptomaniac should have any position of authority in Church. Etc.

My commment meant the normal run-of-mill sinners.  Sometimes Church wont turn around the most extreme of sinners.

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« Reply #29 on: December 10, 2007, 03:52:36 PM »

I think it depends on the type of sin and the position in the Church.
For example, I don't think that the priesthood or any religious order is a good place in Church for those who are committing sin with young boys. And I don't agree that a serial killer or kleptomaniac should have any position of authority in Church. Etc.
Yes, I agree that those who have committed a particular sin should not hold a position that would foster that sin, but I would never argue that those people be ousted from the Church entirely. The Church is a wonderful place for healing, and while at times we unfortunately must remove people from positions of authority because of sin, we must still help them to recover from sin's effects.
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« Reply #30 on: December 14, 2007, 11:29:54 PM »

Quote
It is much easier on an administrative level for this group to go under Rome. The only place in Orthodoxy that the WR exist in any numbers is in the Antiochian Archdiocese of North America. This group has parishes in places where you need to bring in the Patriarchs of Constantinople, Alexandria and Antioch in order to bring this group in as a whole.

It's not numbers that count.  Orthodoxy has in the past/present had Western Rite dioceses in Czeckoslowakia, Poland and France, and other forms of WRITE jurisdictions/parishes in Canada, USA, Australia and New Zealand.  So Constantinople doesn't have to be involved.  Alexandria? Well other Orthodox jurisdictions operate in Africa.  All they need to cover their spread is Antioch and ROCOR.

As I understand the TAC position: Their present bishops expect to be priests after the union.

As I understand it from some of their clergy/people, Hepworth will be lucky to get much more that 60% of his people and clergy to follow him.

What really makes me curious is that they are still consecrating bishops .... why would one want to be consecrated for a five minute episcopate - or -  are they setting up some episcopal care for those who have indicated that they will not follow?
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« Reply #31 on: December 17, 2007, 01:49:57 PM »

I still insist that it seems very hard to remain Western while going under EO. This was also a huge obstacle for me and other Catholic converts I know who considered the EO Church. There's a lot of anti-Western feeling there (not just historical grievances or animus but a common belief that Western traditions are generally suspect)---I wondered how much at home a devotee of St. Augustine like me would feel there. I was concerned that I would be made to feel un-Orthodox for being Western (I had gotten a lot of this already before I became a Catholic). I admire and respect the Eastern tradition, but it isn't me. The TAC are also Western---it just seems natural to go under the Roman pontiff, the patriarch of their ancestors.
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« Reply #32 on: December 17, 2007, 02:03:23 PM »

I still insist that it seems very hard to remain Western while going under EO. This was also a huge obstacle for me and other Catholic converts I know who considered the EO Church. There's a lot of anti-Western feeling there (not just historical grievances or animus but a common belief that Western traditions are generally suspect)---I wondered how much at home a devotee of St. Augustine like me would feel there. I was concerned that I would be made to feel un-Orthodox for being Western (I had gotten a lot of this already before I became a Catholic). I admire and respect the Eastern tradition, but it isn't me. The TAC are also Western---it just seems natural to go under the Roman pontiff, the patriarch of their ancestors.
I don't deny that there are some things which are deplorable in the Roman Church today. However,  I was  distressed to read about the severe criticism of Western devotions, such as the First Friday devotions. I see a lot of value and Christian virtue in practicing these Roman devotions and it is difficult for me to  understand a  criticism of them.
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« Reply #33 on: December 17, 2007, 02:21:58 PM »

His Grace Cardinal Kaspar's comment doesn't make sense, because, as far as I know, the Anglicans in question are already out of communion with Canterbury and have no interest in renewing that tie.

Excuse me for intrrupting; but ....

How is it that these two groups even consider themsleves "communions" in the first place?

The historical facts regarding the formation of these two groups indicate that they are really heretic groups and thus are not really 'supporting' REAL communions.

I think both groups are dellusional...

I think time has allowed these people to forget who they really are. I would be embarrassed to even say I was connected to either of these unfortunate circumstances of history; the anglican in particular.

Nice church looking buildings and ornate holy looking vestments does not change anything.

Both groups should disband and repent and come back to the Holy Church.
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« Reply #34 on: December 17, 2007, 02:50:45 PM »

Quote
I still insist that it seems very hard to remain Western while going under EO. This was also a huge obstacle for me and other Catholic converts I know who considered the EO Church. There's a lot of anti-Western feeling there (not just historical grievances or animus but a common belief that Western traditions are generally suspect)---I wondered how much at home a devotee of St. Augustine like me would feel there. I was concerned that I would be made to feel un-Orthodox for being Western (I had gotten a lot of this already before I became a Catholic). I admire and respect the Eastern tradition, but it isn't me. The TAC are also Western---it just seems natural to go under the Roman pontiff, the patriarch of their ancestors.

lubeltri, I think this depends what you mean.  One can easily be a from and live in a western society and feel at home in Orthodoxy in its Byzantine expression.  In many ways ironically there is actually something very western, or you could say American, about the immigrant experience of the Orthodox churches in North America.  One must also look past the polemics when assessing the true nature of a church.

Now, if you mean your primary outlook and liturgical praxis is grounded in the organic religious civilization of the West, then I would agree with your statement.  Orthodoxy is not for you.

Regarding the TAC, they should return to Rome because it is where they came from.  What I think will hold them back is the issue of married clergy and a lack of support for provisions allowing Anglican practice to continue as they desire (i.e. not the current allowance, which even then probably has tepid support).  Most likely in my opinion is that they will remain independent, and some individuals will likely be unable to live with the inherent tensions and contradictions of sectarian catholicism and will themselves convert on their own.
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« Reply #35 on: December 17, 2007, 03:06:25 PM »

Excuse me for intrrupting; but ....

How is it that these two groups even consider themsleves "communions" in the first place?

The historical facts regarding the formation of these two groups indicate that they are really heretic groups and thus are not really 'supporting' REAL communions.

I think both groups are dellusional...

Fr. Deacon,

Well, as a Catholic, I'd have to agree with you on the delusional part, but, that's beside the point Wink.  Much like the recent use of "confession" in another thread to denote different Christian groups, the use of the word "communion" is used in English to denote a certain group or body of confessions who technically share the same theology and praxis, no matter how flawed we as Catholics or EO or OO may think such theology/praxis is.  These confessions are "in communion" with one another.  From what I can see, in the case of the worldwide Anglican confessions, being a part of the "Anglican communion" means nowadays being invited to the Lambeth Conference that the Archbishop of Canterbury has every decade.  If you're invited and go, you're a part of the Anglican communion.  If you're not invited and/or turn down an invite, you're not.

I understand that you perhaps use these words differently, but this is what we mean when using the word communion in the context above.

Smiley
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« Reply #36 on: December 17, 2007, 09:35:35 PM »

Most likely in my opinion is that they will remain independent, and some individuals will likely be unable to live with the inherent tensions and contradictions of sectarian catholicism and will themselves convert on their own.

Another possibility is that they could unite with the PNCC.
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« Reply #37 on: December 20, 2007, 02:41:56 PM »

Fr. Deacon,

Well, as a Catholic, I'd have to agree with you on the delusional part, but, that's beside the point Wink.  Much like the recent use of "confession" in another thread to denote different Christian groups, the use of the word "communion" is used in English to denote a certain group or body of confessions who technically share the same theology and praxis, no matter how flawed we as Catholics or EO or OO may think such theology/praxis is.  These confessions are "in communion" with one another.  From what I can see, in the case of the worldwide Anglican confessions, being a part of the "Anglican communion" means nowadays being invited to the Lambeth Conference that the Archbishop of Canterbury has every decade.  If you're invited and go, you're a part of the Anglican communion.  If you're not invited and/or turn down an invite, you're not.

I understand that you perhaps use these words differently, but this is what we mean when using the word communion in the context above.

Smiley

Thanks
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« Reply #38 on: January 10, 2008, 05:33:11 PM »

Excuse me for intrrupting; but ....

How is it that these two groups even consider themsleves "communions" in the first place?

The historical facts regarding the formation of these two groups indicate that they are really heretic groups and thus are not really 'supporting' REAL communions.

I think both groups are dellusional...

I think time has allowed these people to forget who they really are. I would be embarrassed to even say I was connected to either of these unfortunate circumstances of history; the anglican in particular.

Nice church looking buildings and ornate holy looking vestments does not change anything.

Both groups should disband and repent and come back to the Holy Church.
Some Eastern Orthodox Christians believe your Church is not a true Church.
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« Reply #39 on: January 10, 2008, 05:44:30 PM »

Some Eastern Orthodox Christians believe your Church is not a true Church.

Thanks for sharing.
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« Reply #40 on: January 10, 2008, 05:53:13 PM »

Some Eastern Orthodox Christians believe your Church is not a true Church.

Yes.  They the same ones that believe that your church is not a true Church.
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« Reply #41 on: January 10, 2008, 07:12:32 PM »

Some Eastern Orthodox Christians believe your Church is not a true Church.

Well said...

What an unfortunate, fact indeed.

Lets us all pray for this kind of person (persons) who are bent on pompus dreams of purity and perfection deluding themselves blind in the midst of their own stubborn and unkind hearts which yearns not for unity, peace and love which are the true fruit of the faith of the fathers and Christ Holy Church; but instead run desperately toward distinction, aggrandizement, classification and pontifical aspirations AND hold on to a sense or real presence of being "virgin", untouched...."Christ true Church", "Gods true people".

Sad!

These are the desires that appeal to man and are the fruit of men.....NOT God!

God loves the humble who forgives without grumbling or remembering his brothers sins.

God has His eye on the man who will not speak ill or guile nor rebuke without cause.

God has His eye on the man who will give his life for his friend.

It is these attributes and desires that are the true nature of Gods people and by thus are the fruit of God found in man. Without these man is fruitless.

The true Church of Christ IS ONE and the holy fathers teach this.

The meer nature of the idea that we can even propose that Christ Church is EO and OO is a heresy in the face of the true unity Christ established which is the One Holy, Universal and Apostolic Church.

Christ did not make His Church EO and OO. Man did that with his arrogant pontifications and explosive sense of BEING holy and rightious....along side having poor manners, a nature unforgivingness, and lack of compassion which is a concoction of absolute recklessness. The Church suffers to this day from this. To me if either side was ever right that "right" would have enveloped the other NOT make two seperate entities. Truth consumes like light entering darkness; NOT divide.

Division is a sign that truth is NOT present.

What is present in any division is chaos which is the product of confusion and disagreement.

And God does not exist in chaos. It does not matter what is right or wrong in the situation.

And we are ALL going to pay for it no matter which side is right. Since both sides are wrong and are in rebellion against the teachings of God which says: "ABOVE ALL THINGS FIRST LOVE ONE ANOTHER". WE are all failing to see what we must do to be Gods people.

WE have all digressed.

WE are like the Jews of old.

Amazing!

The EO's you speak of I have heard from this type. I do not consider all EO's the same. Their are some OO with this upside down thinking as well.

Let us pray for them and for each other since if WE do not solve this delima I am certain that there will be no winners in the end just as trhere are NO winner right now.

WE are all in the same boat.

Sadly; I know that there are EO's and OO's that may not agree with this fact.

I am for unity.

I see Orthodox as Orthodox. NO EO or OO.

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« Reply #42 on: January 10, 2008, 07:32:17 PM »

Well said...

What an unfortunate, fact indeed.

Lets us all pray for this kind of person (persons) who are bent on pompus dreams of purity and perfection delluding themselves blind in the midst of their own stubborn and unkind hearts which yearns not for unity, peace and love which are the true fruit of the faith of the fathers and Christ Holy Church; but instead run desperately toward distinction, agrandizement, classification and pontifical aspirations to hold on to a since or real presence of being "virgin", untouched...."Christ true Church", "Gods true people".

Sad!

These are the desires that appeal to man and are the fruit of men.....NOT God!

God loves the humble who forgives without grumbling or remembering his brothers sins.

God has His eye on the man who will not speak ill or guile nor rebuke without cause.

God has His eye on the man who will give his life for his friend.

It is these attributes and desires that are the true nature of Gods people and by thus are the fruit of God found in man. Without these man is fruitless.

The true Church of Christ IS ONE and the holy fathers teach this.

The meer nature of the idea that we can even propose that Christ Church is EO and OO is a heresy in the face of the true unity Christ established which is the One Holy, Universal and Apostolic Church.

Christ did not make His Church EO and OO. Man did that.

And we are ALL going to pay for it no matter which side is right. Since both sides are wrong and are in rebellion agianst the teachings of God which says: "ABOVE ALL THINGS FIRST LOVE ONE ANOTHER". WE are all failing to see what we must do to be Gods people.

WE have all digressed.

WE are like the Jews of old.

Amazing!

The EO's you speak of I have heard from this type. I do not consider all EO's the same. Their are some OO with this upside down thinking as well.

Let us pray for them and for each other since if WE do not solve this delima I am certain that there will be no winners in the end.

I am for unity.

I see Orthodox as Orthodox. NO EO or OO.


And what of Catholics?
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« Reply #43 on: January 10, 2008, 07:38:15 PM »

Well said...

What an unfortunate, fact indeed.

Lets us all pray for this kind of person (persons) who are bent on pompus dreams of purity and perfection deluding themselves blind in the midst of their own stubborn and unkind hearts which yearns not for unity, peace and love which are the true fruit of the faith of the fathers and Christ Holy Church; but instead run desperately toward distinction, aggrandizement, classification and pontifical aspirations AND hold on to a sense or real presence of being "virgin", untouched...."Christ true Church", "Gods true people".

Sad!

These are the desires that appeal to man and are the fruit of men.....NOT God!

God loves the humble who forgives without grumbling or remembering his brothers sins.

God has His eye on the man who will not speak ill or guile nor rebuke without cause.

God has His eye on the man who will give his life for his friend.

It is these attributes and desires that are the true nature of Gods people and by thus are the fruit of God found in man. Without these man is fruitless.

The true Church of Christ IS ONE and the holy fathers teach this.

The meer nature of the idea that we can even propose that Christ Church is EO and OO is a heresy in the face of the true unity Christ established which is the One Holy, Universal and Apostolic Church.

Christ did not make His Church EO and OO. Man did that with his arrogant pontifications and explosive sense of BEING holy and rightious....along side having poor manners, a nature unforgivingness, and lack of compassion which is a concoction of absolute recklessness. The Church suffers to this day from this. To me if either side was ever right that "right" would have enveloped the other NOT make two seperate entities. Truth consumes like light entering darkness; NOT divide.

Division is a sign that truth is NOT present.

What is present in any division is chaos which is the product of confusion and disagreement.

And God does not exist in chaos. It does not matter what is right or wrong in the situation.

And we are ALL going to pay for it no matter which side is right. Since both sides are wrong and are in rebellion against the teachings of God which says: "ABOVE ALL THINGS FIRST LOVE ONE ANOTHER". WE are all failing to see what we must do to be Gods people.

WE have all digressed.

WE are like the Jews of old.

Amazing!

The EO's you speak of I have heard from this type. I do not consider all EO's the same. Their are some OO with this upside down thinking as well.

Let us pray for them and for each other since if WE do not solve this delima I am certain that there will be no winners in the end just as trhere are NO winner right now.

WE are all in the same boat.

Sadly; I know that there are EO's and OO's that may not agree with this fact.

I am for unity.

I see Orthodox as Orthodox. NO EO or OO.


Beautifully said Amdetsion Smiley
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« Reply #44 on: January 10, 2008, 07:40:26 PM »

Well said...

What an unfortunate, fact indeed.

Lets us all pray for this kind of person (persons) who are bent on pompus dreams of purity and perfection deluding themselves blind in the midst of their own stubborn and unkind hearts which yearns not for unity, peace and love which are the true fruit of the faith of the fathers and Christ Holy Church; but instead run desperately toward distinction, aggrandizement, classification and pontifical aspirations AND hold on to a sense or real presence of being "virgin", untouched...."Christ true Church", "Gods true people".

Sad!

These are the desires that appeal to man and are the fruit of men.....NOT God!

God loves the humble who forgives without grumbling or remembering his brothers sins.

God has His eye on the man who will not speak ill or guile nor rebuke without cause.

God has His eye on the man who will give his life for his friend.

It is these attributes and desires that are the true nature of Gods people and by thus are the fruit of God found in man. Without these man is fruitless.

The true Church of Christ IS ONE and the holy fathers teach this.

The meer nature of the idea that we can even propose that Christ Church is EO and OO is a heresy in the face of the true unity Christ established which is the One Holy, Universal and Apostolic Church.

Christ did not make His Church EO and OO. Man did that with his arrogant pontifications and explosive sense of BEING holy and rightious....along side having poor manners, a nature unforgivingness, and lack of compassion which is a concoction of absolute recklessness. The Church suffers to this day from this. To me if either side was ever right that "right" would have enveloped the other NOT make two seperate entities. Truth consumes like light entering darkness; NOT divide.

Division is a sign that truth is NOT present.

What is present in any division is chaos which is the product of confusion and disagreement.

And God does not exist in chaos. It does not matter what is right or wrong in the situation.

And we are ALL going to pay for it no matter which side is right. Since both sides are wrong and are in rebellion against the teachings of God which says: "ABOVE ALL THINGS FIRST LOVE ONE ANOTHER". WE are all failing to see what we must do to be Gods people.

WE have all digressed.

WE are like the Jews of old.

Amazing!

The EO's you speak of I have heard from this type. I do not consider all EO's the same. Their are some OO with this upside down thinking as well.

Let us pray for them and for each other since if WE do not solve this delima I am certain that there will be no winners in the end just as trhere are NO winner right now.

WE are all in the same boat.

Sadly; I know that there are EO's and OO's that may not agree with this fact.

I am for unity.

I see Orthodox as Orthodox. NO EO or OO.



So Christ does have two bodies?
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« Reply #45 on: January 10, 2008, 07:41:29 PM »

And what of Catholics?

Papist

I edited my post while you were posting this.

Please re-read my post.

Also I failed to include Roman Catholics in my point.

The RC, EO and OO are actually one faith which needs to learn to behave like Christians.

God help us...Amen
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« Reply #46 on: January 10, 2008, 08:01:28 PM »

Papist

I edited my post while you were posting this.

Please re-read my post.

Also I failed to include Roman Catholics in my point.

The RC, EO and OO are actually one faith which needs to learn to behave like Christians.

God help us...Amen

So Christ then has three bodies?
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« Reply #47 on: January 10, 2008, 08:07:50 PM »

So Christ then has three bodies?

Multiple personalities. Tongue

EO and OO are suffering from some dimentia now, which is why we don't recognize fully that we are One.
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« Reply #48 on: January 11, 2008, 06:16:14 AM »

So Christ then has three bodies?

You can not believe that RC EO and OO are three bodies?

These are the three stooges if anything more than one.

Christ and His Holy Church and His people are one body with one faith, one baptism.

NO Division, NO divorce.

Divisions and divorces are the acts of man. God has not provided this for us.

We do these things to each other because we can not understand love.

And we never will....

Remember Adam failed twice; first by disobeying God and and second for not embracing the love of his wife. If he loved Eve why would he immediately defend himself over her? He cared not what would happen to her? He should have sacraficed himself for her and taken full responsibility for everything that happened. God may have shown some mercy. But Adam did not know love. He only new "self".

We are all just the same as Adam today.

The Lord answered Adams mistake and did sacrafice Himself for Adam and Eve and the whole world.

Christ taught love.

It unfortunately keeps falling on deaf ears; generation after wicked generation.

Love comes with a price. We must give up ourselves; and we are not going to do that.

The idea of EO OO RC or whatever else is uselessness....not Christianity

Vicars of Christ? Let me see one man on earth today allow himself to suffer like Christ did for all mankind. Then we can talk about Vicars of Christ. Up to now Christ has NO Vicar but the Holy Spirit. He died on the cross and nobody helped Him or stood by as His Vicar. Even St Peter ran away and abandoned Him.

Two natures? One Nature? Let me see a church that holds true to Christ commandments which is of many things first to love one another than we can talk about Christ' nature. We can't figure out how to pray together and respect each other.
We will know His nature by BEING who He made us to be; "a chosen nation". "The salt of the earth", "a royal priesthood" etc.

And we are none of the above; not that we ever were. You can't tell a christian form a pagan or heathen today. And we orthodox should be ashamed to say that we are the early church.

WE are too busy scratching each others eyes out and keeping up with "life".

Just read some the posts on this forum as proof.

Our 4th and 5th century fathers were no better; allowing emnity to rear its ugly head among Gods flock; The Flock they were to be protecting even with there very lives..this was (is) God order to the Sheppards of the Church.

They failed the primary function of their offices.....Amazing!

Can we help them (our Fathers)  who were too weak to lead us not in temptation then in our time by forgiving each other...now.

Can we say to each other "I love you my brother"?

Can we pray together and worship together?

Can we take Holy Communion together?

no!

Why?

Of course Christ is going to answer this in His second advent.
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« Reply #49 on: January 11, 2008, 08:03:56 AM »

You can not believe that RC EO and OO are three bodies?

These are the three stooges if anything more than one.

Christ and His Holy Church and His people are one body with one faith, one baptism.

NO Division, NO divorce.

Divisions and divorces are the acts of man. God has not provided this for us.

We do these things to each other because we can not understand love.

And we never will....

Remember Adam failed twice; first by disobeying God and and second for not embracing the love of his wife. If he loved Eve why would he immediately defend himself over her? He cared not what would happen to her? He should have sacraficed himself for her and taken full responsibility for everything that happened. God may have shown some mercy. But Adam did not know love. He only new "self".

We are all just the same as Adam today.

The Lord answered Adams mistake and did sacrafice Himself for Adam and Eve and the whole world.

Christ taught love.

It unfortunately keeps falling on deaf ears; generation after wicked generation.

Love comes with a price. We must give up ourselves; and we are not going to do that.

The idea of EO OO RC or whatever else is uselessness....not Christianity

Vicars of Christ? Let me see one man on earth today allow himself to suffer like Christ did for all mankind. Then we can talk about Vicars of Christ. Up to now Christ has NO Vicar but the Holy Spirit. He died on the cross and nobody helped Him or stood by as His Vicar. Even St Peter ran away and abandoned Him.

Two natures? One Nature? Let me see a church that holds true to Christ commandments which is of many things first to love one another than we can talk about Christ' nature. We can't figure out how to pray together and respect each other.
We will know His nature by BEING who He made us to be; "a chosen nation". "The salt of the earth", "a royal priesthood" etc.

And we are none of the above; not that we ever were. You can't tell a christian form a pagan or heathen today. And we orthodox should be ashamed to say that we are the early church.

WE are too busy scratching each others eyes out and keeping up with "life".

Just read some the posts on this forum as proof.

Our 4th and 5th century fathers were no better; allowing emnity to rear its ugly head among Gods flock; The Flock they were to be protecting even with there very lives..this was (is) God order to the Sheppards of the Church.

They failed the primary function of their offices.....Amazing!

Can we help them (our Fathers)  who were too weak to lead us not in temptation then in our time by forgiving each other...now.

Can we say to each other "I love you my brother"?

Can we pray together and worship together?

Can we take Holy Communion together?

no!

Why?

Of course Christ is going to answer this in His second advent.

So you're subscribing to the Branch Theory, then?
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« Reply #50 on: January 11, 2008, 10:26:13 AM »

So you're subscribing to the Branch Theory, then?

Veniamin,

Until recently, the Russian Orthodox Church and the ROCOR weren't in full communion with each other.

And yet both were considered Orthodox. Was that the Branch Theory?
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« Reply #51 on: January 11, 2008, 11:38:53 AM »

So you're subscribing to the Branch Theory, then?

I do not know anything about what you call "the branch theory".

Sounds like more 'pontificatiousness' to me. In such case knowing the meaning would not help me at all.

I subscribe to the commands of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. And I can assure you that what he commands cannot have anything to do with any kind of theory.

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« Reply #52 on: January 11, 2008, 12:29:25 PM »

So Christ then has three bodies?

It's a mystical body, is it not?
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« Reply #53 on: January 11, 2008, 12:37:27 PM »

Veniamin,

Until recently, the Russian Orthodox Church and the ROCOR weren't in full communion with each other.

And yet both were considered Orthodox. Was that the Branch Theory?

Good point. And think of the many other times where Orthodox bodies broke communion with each other. Which were out of the Church (with no Holy Mysteries, of course) and which were in? How about the masses of humble, ordinary pious people who were denied the sacraments because their bishops may or may have not have taken them out of the Church (who can tell)?
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« Reply #54 on: January 12, 2008, 09:53:32 AM »

So Christ then has three bodies?

Is God three distinct persons of one essence?

How? 

Well... thats a mystery

Something eastern folk harp on about quite a bit.
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« Reply #55 on: January 12, 2008, 10:03:17 AM »

Is God three distinct persons of one essence?

How? 

Well... thats a mystery

Something eastern folk harp on about quite a bit.

The Apostles taught Three Persons One in Essence.

They didn't teach Tritheism.  they called it heathenism.

They taught One Church.

They didn't teach demonationalism.  They called it heresy.

We eastern folk harp on no development of dogma quite a bit.
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« Reply #56 on: January 12, 2008, 12:55:53 PM »

The Apostles taught Three Persons One in Essence.

Tripersonalistic mono-essentialism.
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« Reply #57 on: January 12, 2008, 04:32:03 PM »



We eastern folk harp on no development of dogma quite a bit.
And yet the councils, your own hesychast monks, and Gregory Palamas himself developed dogma quite a bit.
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« Reply #58 on: January 13, 2008, 12:00:12 AM »

And yet the councils, your own hesychast monks, and Gregory Palamas himself developed dogma quite a bit.

Actually no, the councils didn't develop dogma (e.g. Ephesus condemned the INNOVATION of refusing the title Theotokos, Chalcedon the INNOVATION of Eutyches, Constantinople II the INNOVATION of the Three Chapters, C III the INNOVATION of monotheletism, etc.).

Palamas' teaching is repleate with the Cappadocians and other ECF, which is why the OO also agree with the position.
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« Reply #59 on: January 13, 2008, 03:58:24 AM »

We eastern folk harp on no development of dogma quite a bit.

You also harp on fairy tales, mythology and wishful thinking quite a bit. 
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« Reply #60 on: January 13, 2008, 08:11:13 PM »

You also harp on fairy tales, mythology and wishful thinking quite a bit. 

Specifics?
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« Reply #61 on: January 22, 2008, 01:52:36 PM »

It's been over a year since I've posted on this message board, but after reading comments on this thread in particular, I thought I'd chime in....

First, although I too am a traditional Anglican (in the ACC) I'm not as gung-ho about a reunion with Rome as is the TAC apparently is.  Don't get me wrong--Christ's great prayer is for all of us to be one and I pray that will be a reality one day.  However, I simply can't accept certain Roman dogmas as necessary to salvation, particularly those in regards to the papal infallibility.  (I do admire the current Pope, though).  If some of these dogmas were somehow modified (or "clarified") in a way that's more in keeping with how the entire Church has viewed the Roman bishop throughout time and space, then I'd be more enthused about the prospects of a genuine reunion.

Second, for what it's worth, I ultimately chose to become a traditional Anglican (3 creeds, 7 councils, etc) after exploring Eastern Orthodoxy for a couple of years (and briefly becoming a catechumen) because I just couldn't believe based on history that the Holy Ghost went <poof!> and just vanished from the Western Church in 1054 (or any other year).  And since I wasn't convinced historically about the validity of modern day papal claims/dogmas either, I landed where I am today rather than in Rome.  Plus, I find much beauty in the classical Anglican hymns, KJV Bible, and BCP, and I admired the efforts (however awkward and fumbling at times) of the classical Anglican divines in attempting to reform the Church based on the orthodox catholic consensus of the ancient Church (rather than throwing out the baby with the bathwater as many Continental Reformers seemed to have done in various ways).

By the way, I would like to commend Amdetsion on his sound words.  I too hope we can all be one some day.
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« Reply #62 on: March 07, 2008, 11:47:47 AM »

It's good to read you again, Doubting Thomas.  I hope that all is well with you.

Ebor
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« Reply #63 on: March 07, 2008, 06:53:16 PM »

Doubting Thomas,

Great post.

One thing I would ask you ... You explained why you decided against both Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy, but I notice you didn't mention the Polish National Catholic Church. So I'm just wondering, did you ever consider them, and if so what were your conclusions?

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« Reply #64 on: March 07, 2008, 07:32:41 PM »


Don't get me wrong--Christ's great prayer is for all of us to be one and I pray that will be a reality one day. 


Christ's prayer?

Are you sure this is what you want to say?

Christ is God...Amen!

He 'commanded' that His Church IS ONE.

He did not "pray" for His Church "to be" one some day.

His Church is His own undivided Body where he is the Head till eternity.

The true Church embraces the members 'in' His Divine Body.

If then we as the members are divided amongst each other than that is our problem. NOT Christs' nor His undivided Holy and Universal Church.

His Church is still undivided today and will remain as such till the last day.

What 'we' presume to be "churches" are only our own human ideas that are lost; not firmly one with Gods ordinance thus we get corruption or what we call ever-so-nicely "denominations".

Sadly the only suitable word I can think for what we are doing is 'folly'.

This is mans doing NOT Christs'.

The Lord said.."It is finished".

And even if it was Christs' "prayer" that the Church be one it would be exactly that the second before He prayed for such and would still be one no matter how many ways we find to divide ourselves believing we are 'dividing' something we have no control over.

There is only One life, One Church, One faith and One Baptism...Amen.

Christ and His undivided Church is already a 2000 year old "reality".

I think you would agree that man is the dreamer with his delusional nature and arrogant character.

WE really believe that WE can, have, or are dividing or 'have' divided' Gods Salvation (The Holy Church) on doctrinal or dogmatic lines.

These elements (doctrine and or dogma) of concern are very important for the faith BUT they are not the elements which the Holy Church was established on.

The Church was established 'on' the supreme Sacrefice of the Christ on the cross.... the Innocent Blood of the Lamb. Not on the basis or outcome of a synod of bishops and priests who can not agree on earthly matters of doctrine and dogma.  

Let me see one of us nailed to a cross and spill our own innocent blood for the sake of dogma and or doctrine and then I would have to say we can divide the church.

But this is moot since the only Innocent Blood on earth is Christs. All other blood is of no value no matter how holy we may be.

So WE have to pray for the day that WE are one with the undivided Church of Christ which He is heading right now and is coming back for in the day of Judgement.

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« Reply #65 on: March 07, 2008, 07:56:19 PM »

Christ's prayer?

Are you sure this is what you want to say?

Christ is God...Amen!

He 'commanded' that His Church IS ONE.

He did not "pray" for His Church "to be" one some day.

His Church is His own undivided Body where he is the Head till eternity.

The true Church embraces the members 'in' His Divine Body.

If then we as the members are divided amongst each other than that is our problem. NOT Christs' nor His undivided Holy and Universal Church.

His Church is still undivided today and will remain as such till the last day.

What 'we' presume to be "churches" are only our own human ideas that are lost; not firmly one with Gods ordinance thus we get corruption or what we call ever-so-nicely "denominations".

Sadly the only suitable word I can think for what we are doing is 'folly'.

This is mans doing NOT Christs'.

The Lord said.."It is finished".

And even if it was Christs' "prayer" that the Church be one it would be exactly that the second before He prayed for such and would still be one no matter how many ways we find to divide ourselves believing we are 'dividing' something we have no control over.

There is only One life, One Church, One faith and One Baptism...Amen.

Christ and His undivided Church is already a 2000 year old "reality".

I think you would agree that man is the dreamer with his delusional nature and arrogant character.

WE really believe that WE can, have, or are dividing or 'have' divided' Gods Salvation (The Holy Church) on doctrinal or dogmatic lines.

These elements (doctrine and or dogma) of concern are very important for the faith BUT they are not the elements which the Holy Church was established on.

The Church was established 'on' the supreme Sacrefice of the Christ on the cross.... the Innocent Blood of the Lamb. Not on the basis or outcome of a synod of bishops and priests who can not agree on earthly matters of doctrine and dogma.  

Let me see one of us nailed to a cross and spill our own innocent blood for the sake of dogma and or doctrine and then I would have to say we can divide the church.

But this is moot since the only Innocent Blood on earth is Christs. All other blood is of no value no matter how holy we may be.

So WE have to pray for the day that WE are one with the undivided Church of Christ which He is heading right now and is coming back for in the day of Judgement.



Great...preaching the Branch Theory again. Roll Eyes
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« Reply #66 on: March 14, 2008, 07:52:07 AM »

It's good to read you again, Doubting Thomas.  I hope that all is well with you.

Ebor
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« Reply #67 on: March 14, 2008, 07:55:25 AM »

Doubting Thomas,

Great post.

One thing I would ask you ... You explained why you decided against both Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy, but I notice you didn't mention the Polish National Catholic Church. So I'm just wondering, did you ever consider them, and if so what were your conclusions?

Welcome back to the forum!
-Peter.

Peter,

Though I was aware of the PNCC I never really considered them because I'm not as familiar with them and because I'm unaware of any congregations within an hour's driving distance.  I'm not denying the "catholicity" of that body; I was just more familar with Anglicanism
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« Reply #68 on: March 14, 2008, 07:58:24 AM »

Christ's prayer?

Are you sure this is what you want to say?

Christ is God...Amen!

He 'commanded' that His Church IS ONE.

He did not "pray" for His Church "to be" one some day.



Amdetsion,

Yes I'm sure that's what I wanted to say.  Take a look at John 17, especially verses 20-21.  Christ prayed to the Father that they may be one.

DT
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« Reply #69 on: March 31, 2008, 03:40:49 PM »

Perhaps Bishop Ware said it best, when he insisted that the Orthodox Christian may claim to know where the true Church is, not where it is not.

We know where the True Faith is not being taught, certainly, and we can condemn such errors; we can never claim, however, to know that one is not of Christ without judging him, as we are enjoined not to do by our Lord.

I pray for visible unity, however, between all those claiming to be Christians. 

Glory to Jesus Christ!
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« Reply #70 on: June 01, 2008, 06:41:14 PM »

The true Church of Christ IS ONE and the holy fathers teach this.... Sadly; I know that there are EO's and OO's that may not agree with this fact. I am for unity. I see Orthodox as Orthodox. NO EO or OO.

Me too. And I am Western Orthodox. And the Church is Conciliar, full acceptance of the Seven Ecumenical Councils (and the Local Councils they blessed) being a prerequisite for membership in the Orthodox Church.

I am glad we agree.

And I presume you also accept those councils.
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« Reply #71 on: June 02, 2008, 02:20:36 PM »

Me too. And I am Western Orthodox. And the Church is Conciliar, full acceptance of the Seven Ecumenical Councils (and the Local Councils they blessed) being a prerequisite for membership in the Orthodox Church.

I am glad we agree.

And I presume you also accept those councils.

I can tell you this:

I accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior of the world.

I presume you do to...

I accept the fact that I am a sinner and that no matter what I do or anyone does or says will not and cannot change that. Thus I accept that only the saving grace of Jesus Christ can remit sin.

I presume you do to....

I have been hoping and praying that I live as God commands his faithful people and that where I fail He will have mercy on me because I want to go to heaven with the saints.

I presume you do to......

I pray that you and I and all true believer and followers of Christ (inside and outside His Holy Church) will recieve mercy from the Lord and be freed from our bondage in this corrupted world and be accepted into the enternal grace with Him. I want and pray that all of us succeed at this no mattrer how many council we accept or not, or which pope leads because Christ is the "finisher and Author" of our faith alone. He does not need our help. WE are to follow Him.

I assure you that if our fathers (all of us) had only a small precentage of the humility, patience and long suffering that Christ exhibited and 'admonished' us to also have many of these "councils" if not all of them would not have been necessary to have in the first place. Where there is unity of the spirit than this is evidence of the providence of God. God is not party with confusion, diivision, lovelessness, emnity etc. Its thus clear that anything that acts to 'divide' in this age of mercy which started on earth upon Christs ascension to the right hand of God and will end at Christs return to earth for the 'judgement' of mandkind is not for the people of God.

WE (Christians) are a merciful nation having all patience, love and care for and with all matters and all people; particularly and unyeildingly where the body of Christ (the Holy Church) is concerned.

My hope is that Christ will in the end accept all people into the enternal kingdom no matter what they are doing or believing right now and not crush us for not following His true faith. It seems rather unfair since as orthodox we lead such rigorous lives of prayer and fasting and dwelling in the word of God and than all others who could care less end up reaping the same reward. This is a hard thing. It is easier to believe we are (you are) better because of the fact that we (you) are orthodox and follow so many councils etc; AND THEY DO NOT. WE are the TRUE CHURCH. But the Holy Church teaches that we are to be ready for this...'universiality'. WE must start with each other with mercy and passion toward each other for everything. Mercy and compassion prevents fear and thus without the chain and bondage of fear love grows to full grown being uninhibited with our weaknesess.

So I want the baptist, methodist, evangelical etc to succeed at obtaining eternal grace. I believe the scripture teaches that "every knee shall bow". What or who would "every" not include?

I am hoping and praying that Jesus Christ has mercy on us all (all people)!.....This (mercy) is the fount of the faith of the Universal Apostolic Orthodox Church.

The councils of the church are called for order and unity of Apostolic belief. 'for unity' thus to adhere to Gods command that "we are to be of one mind". So if unity prevailed from a council (or councils) than they (the councils) are of course fruitful and as such are the keepers of Gods commandments for His Holy Church. If the councils (council) divides (it does not matter why or by whose cause) than it is clearly outside of Gods commandments and therefore can not bear fruit until unity is regained. Thus a council in this condition (resulting in division) is 'not yet finished' and is 'still in session' and has been and will remain in session 'until UNITY prevails'.

Gods house can not be divided. "A house divided among itself cannot and wil not stand. This is contrary to Gods word which teaches that His Church (HIs house) will not fall. Thus such idioms as 'eastern orthodox', 'western orthodox' and 'oriental orthodox' are by nature heretical within the absolute adherence to what the Holy Orthodox Church actually is.

There is only One Church, One baptism, One faith and it is neither eastern, or western or oriental or protestant or black or white....God teaches this not councils!

The Church is One body and One word...UNI-VERSE-al

The rest we made up ourselves which serves as a bonafide testament, a totem; symbolic of our unjust, unruly and adulturous age.

Christ is coming back for His Church.

Lord have mercy on us!

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« Reply #72 on: July 08, 2008, 06:32:01 AM »

Dear brother Isa,

A lot of noise is being made about the TAC officially petitioning to be accepted by Rome, evidently as a special rite (sui juris doesn't seem to be a possibility, although they may be requesting it).

Any reason why they aren't seeking to be received as Western Rite Orthodox?
Way back when the ECF was still "Eastern Christianity" I had a chance to talk/e-mail one of the TAC members at CAF, and asked him if he considered Orthodoxy.  I remember he stated that the current ecclesiological position of Orthodoxy is the same as Anglicanism, which did not offer the protection that the papacy offered, and this was exactly what the TAC was looking for.  I offered him the possibility that Orthodoxy has also not given in to the innovations that the Anglican Church had amassed.  He responded by stating that Orthodoxy has mostly been insulated from the intellectual fervor that the papacy has had to fight against, but the Catholic Church has remained solid despite that.  He did not feel confident that the Orthodox Church could, in the same situation as the Catholic Church in the West, be able to face the same cultural/liberal pressures and remain true to the Faith.  In his view, since the ecclesiology of the EO and the Anglicans are pretty much the same, in the same cultural milieu as the Anglicans, the Orthodox would go down the same road.  Something more was needed, in his opinion, which was the papacy.

I have communicated with exactly three other TAC members who feel the same way.  The party line seems to be that Newman's predictions about the lack of the papacy in Anglicanism leading to innovations has come true.  I guess coming from that cultural background where Newman was so prominent, the choice of the TAC is rather logical.

Blessings,
Marduk
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« Reply #73 on: August 07, 2008, 02:02:32 AM »

Dear brother Isa,
Way back when the ECF was still "Eastern Christianity" I had a chance to talk/e-mail one of the TAC members at CAF, and asked him if he considered Orthodoxy.  I remember he stated that the current ecclesiological position of Orthodoxy is the same as Anglicanism, which did not offer the protection that the papacy offered, and this was exactly what the TAC was looking for.  I offered him the possibility that Orthodoxy has also not given in to the innovations that the Anglican Church had amassed.  He responded by stating that Orthodoxy has mostly been insulated from the intellectual fervor that the papacy has had to fight against, but the Catholic Church has remained solid despite that.  He did not feel confident that the Orthodox Church could, in the same situation as the Catholic Church in the West, be able to face the same cultural/liberal pressures and remain true to the Faith.  In his view, since the ecclesiology of the EO and the Anglicans are pretty much the same, in the same cultural milieu as the Anglicans, the Orthodox would go down the same road.  Something more was needed, in his opinion, which was the papacy.

I have communicated with exactly three other TAC members who feel the same way.  The party line seems to be that Newman's predictions about the lack of the papacy in Anglicanism leading to innovations has come true.  I guess coming from that cultural background where Newman was so prominent, the choice of the TAC is rather logical.

Blessings,
Marduk

Just missed your post.  Was in jail for a while (contempt), and then other matters.

Interesting. I don't know what it is with that culture.  British understatement? 

I don't know what will become of the TAC (I think we discussed the problems of their head bishop, that he is a married (post ordination) priest ordained by the Vatican).  It seems these various bodies are sitting on the fence.  Members get off individually when they can't wait any longer.  That trickle part is the reason why I don't think the Anglican Usage will get off the ground as a rite or a "sui juris church."  The stream is low enough that they are destined to dilute in the vast sea under the Vatican.

As for not challenged, did he every read a Russian novel? Roll Eyes
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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