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Author Topic: De-emphasizing Marian devotions?  (Read 3430 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: November 30, 2007, 03:36:43 PM »

Is it just me, or is one of the most common pieces of advice given to inquirers (on the net, at least) is "Don't pray the rosary! Pray the Jesus Prayer...on a chotki!" ...or something to that effect.

I understand that Eastern Rite Orthodox are in the majority, and don't pray the rosary as a service usually, and pray the Akathists and Paraclesis of the Theotokos instead, but when asked about using it, or a variant of it, in private prayer devotions, the answer is "it may be fine as a private devotion BUT [reason why it's REALLY not]". St. Seraphim's prayer rule to the Mother of God (similar to the rosary) and the Five Prayers of St. Dimitri (similar to the "chaplet of the Five Sorrows") seem forgotten.

If there is a historical precedence to de-emphasizing Marian devotions in the Orthodox Church, then please let me know. It's just seems to me that this is a veiled way of saying "Orthodox: not Catholic", as if the Orthodox Church is a reaction to the Roman Catholics.

The Jesus Prayer is one of the greatest Spirit-inspired jewels of the Church, but I also believe the Angelic Salutation is awesome, too.

So there's my random thought for today. Any thoughts of your own?
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« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2007, 03:57:24 PM »

Is it just me, or is one of the most common pieces of advice given to inquirers (on the net, at least) is "Don't pray the rosary! Pray the Jesus Prayer...on a chotki!" ...or something to that effect.

I understand that Eastern Rite Orthodox are in the majority, and don't pray the rosary as a service usually, and pray the Akathists and Paraclesis of the Theotokos instead, but when asked about using it, or a variant of it, in private prayer devotions, the answer is "it may be fine as a private devotion BUT [reason why it's REALLY not]". St. Seraphim's prayer rule to the Mother of God (similar to the rosary) and the Five Prayers of St. Dimitri (similar to the "chaplet of the Five Sorrows") seem forgotten.

If there is a historical precedence to de-emphasizing Marian devotions in the Orthodox Church, then please let me know. It's just seems to me that this is a veiled way of saying "Orthodox: not Catholic", as if the Orthodox Church is a reaction to the Roman Catholics.

The Jesus Prayer is one of the greatest Spirit-inspired jewels of the Church, but I also believe the Angelic Salutation is awesome, too.

So there's my random thought for today. Any thoughts of your own?


If you will allow this correction to terminology: Eastern Orthodox not Eastern rite Orthodox. 

The rosary is almost exclusively a western sacramental.  Those in the east who are seen using the rosary are the results of being in a mixed environment for the most part.   We in the east concentrate on the Jesus Prayer sometimes using the Chotki.  But, we have so many prayers to her and we always mention her during Liturgy and even have a special prayer to her called  "Hymn to the Theotokos" prior to the Our Father prayer.  There is no de-emphasization of the Theotokos to my knowledge in the Eastern Orthodox Faith. In fact, being a RC at one time, I feel the EO's do a better job at giving her honor and praise. 

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« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2007, 04:07:35 PM »

If you will allow this correction to terminology: Eastern Orthodox not Eastern rite Orthodox.

I see this a matter of personal preference myself. I don't see the Orthodox Church as regional, but catholic, so when discussing it, especially offline, I refer to it as the "Orthodox Church". I understand the standard online is Eastern Orthodox, though.

I also said Eastern Rite because Western Rite Orthodox do pray the rosary, so I wanted to be specific.

Quote
The rosary is almost exclusively a western sacramental. Those in the east who are seen using the rosary are the results of being in a mixed environment for the most part.   We in the east concentrate on the Jesus Prayer sometimes using the Chotki.  But, we have so many prayers to her and we always mention her during Liturgy and even have a special prayer to her called  "Hymn to the Theotokos" prior to the Our Father prayer.  There is no de-emphasization of the Theotokos to my knowledge in the Eastern Orthodox Faith. In fact, being a RC at one time, I feel the EO's do a better job at giving her honor and praise. 

I understand that there is a devotion to her within the services. I'm talking about in terms of private devotions.
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« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2007, 04:42:06 PM »

Is it just me, or is one of the most common pieces of advice given to inquirers (on the net, at least) is "Don't pray the rosary! Pray the Jesus Prayer...on a chotki!" ...or something to that effect.

I understand that Eastern Rite Orthodox are in the majority, and don't pray the rosary as a service usually, and pray the Akathists and Paraclesis of the Theotokos instead, but when asked about using it, or a variant of it, in private prayer devotions, the answer is "it may be fine as a private devotion BUT [reason why it's REALLY not]". St. Seraphim's prayer rule to the Mother of God (similar to the rosary) and the Five Prayers of St. Dimitri (similar to the "chaplet of the Five Sorrows") seem forgotten.

If there is a historical precedence to de-emphasizing Marian devotions in the Orthodox Church, then please let me know. It's just seems to me that this is a veiled way of saying "Orthodox: not Catholic", as if the Orthodox Church is a reaction to the Roman Catholics.

The Jesus Prayer is one of the greatest Spirit-inspired jewels of the Church, but I also believe the Angelic Salutation is awesome, too.

Yes, I regularly prayer the Angelus: in Latin!  It just struck my fancy.

No, I was never a member of the Latin Church, but went to a Latin School when I was Evangelical Lutheran.
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« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2007, 06:16:09 PM »

Though I was never Catholic, my mother's side was from and Irish Catholic background, so I still say the rosary regularly.

I think this is an example of tradition (small t) rather than a dogmatic difference. Do what you feel comfortable with, because praying in the western style is certainly better than not praying at all!
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« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2007, 06:37:32 PM »

St. Seraphim's prayer rule to the Mother of God (similar to the rosary) and the Five Prayers of St. Dimitri (similar to the "chaplet of the Five Sorrows") seem forgotten.
Certainly the Five Prayers are enormously popular in Russia.
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« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2007, 06:46:48 PM »

Certainly the Five Prayers are enormously popular in Russia.

Father Bless,

Isn't there the Optina 500? That has a prayer to our Holy Theotokos in it? Right?
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« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2007, 06:53:56 PM »

I understand that there is a devotion to her within the services. I'm talking about in terms of private devotions.
Most churches in Russia, Greece, Cyprus, Jerusalem, etc., have a special icon of the Mother of God (quite a few of them are miracle-working) where you can see people every day deep in prayer to Her. 

When the Tikhvin icon of the Mother of God was returned to Russia after 60 years in the United States during the time of Communism, over 250,000 people formed a welcome home procession on the streets of Moscow to greet Her.

See http://www.oca.org/news.asp?ID=617&SID=19



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« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2007, 07:03:11 PM »

Isn't there the Optina 500? That has a prayer to our Holy Theotokos in it? Right?
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Yes indeed!

"Optina Five Hundred"

It was recommended by the holy Startsi (Elders) of the monastery of Optina to anybody starting to use the Jesus Prayer. Add it on after your regular morning and evening prayers.

Assuming that you have a regular 100 knot rope..


1... Say 300 hundred of the Jesus Prayer
Lord Jesus Christ Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner

2... Say 100
Most Holy Mother of God save us

3... Say 100
Holy Father Ambrose pray to God for me

(This last is directed to your patron Saint and heavenly protector so you'll need to change it accordingly.)

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« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2007, 09:04:07 PM »

I understand that Eastern Rite Orthodox are in the majority, and don't pray the rosary as a service usually, and pray the Akathists and Paraclesis of the Theotokos instead, but when asked about using it, or a variant of it, in private prayer devotions, the answer is "it may be fine as a private devotion BUT [reason why it's REALLY not]".

Any thoughts of your own?

I believe the objection is to the use of imagination in prayer in the manner of how the mysteries of the rosary are mediated upon.  But, even among Catholics there are many who just mediate on the words of the prayers.

 
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« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2007, 11:12:22 PM »

Hello,

Do what you feel comfortable with, because praying in the western style is certainly better than not praying at all!
I sure this wasn't your intent, but it sounds like your saying that Latin devotions are inferior to Eastern ones.
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« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2007, 11:12:45 PM »

Hello,

I believe the objection is to the use of imagination in prayer in the manner of how the mysteries of the rosary are mediated upon.  But, even among Catholics there are many who just mediate on the words of the prayers.

I don't follow.  Huh
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« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2007, 11:44:34 PM »

Most churches in Russia, Greece, Cyprus, Jerusalem, etc., have a special icon of the Mother of God (quite a few of them are miracle-working) where you can see people every day deep in prayer to Her. 

When the Tikhvin icon of the Mother of God was returned to Russia after 60 years in the United States during the time of Communism, over 250,000 people formed a welcome home procession on the streets of Moscow to greet Her.

See http://www.oca.org/news.asp?ID=617&SID=19





Our old priest, when I was at cathedral, Fr. Sergei Garglov (spelling?  I should know, he married me) was the guardian of the icon: his adopted father, Archbishop John of blesses memory (head of the Latvian Orthodox Church) took it when they were fleeing WWII.  Father remembers the (hundreds? I can't remember the number) of their band, huddled around the icon in a small Church (in Czechoslovakia?) with the bombs going off around them.  He refered to it as the good old days, and how fond he was of that memory.  Btw, the icon was kept at Holy Trinity Cathedral in Chicago, which the members here helped win a grant recently.
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« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2007, 08:14:52 PM »

Catholics have Marian devotions.  Orthodox have Marian devotions.  Protestants, who knows, maybe some do, some don't.  Perhaps people should be taught more in the USA that when they become Orthodox not to down play devotions to Mary or under-cut her.  It's not "Catholic" to ask Mary to pray for you, or to have devotions to her, it's Orthodox as well.  Yes, we know certain scenarios the Orthodox don't subscribe to and the Catholics do regarding to Mary.  But, Mary is not to be forgotten or downplayed because it smells "Catholic."  To many, down playing Mary smells protestant... something which the Orthodox church isn't. 
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« Reply #14 on: December 12, 2007, 11:23:39 PM »

Our old priest, when I was at cathedral, Fr. Sergei Garglov (spelling?  I should know, he married me) was the guardian of the icon: his adopted father, Archbishop John of blesses memory (head of the Latvian Orthodox Church) took it when they were fleeing WWII.  Father remembers the (hundreds? I can't remember the number) of their band, huddled around the icon in a small Church (in Czechoslovakia?) with the bombs going off around them.  He refered to it as the good old days, and how fond he was of that memory.  Btw, the icon was kept at Holy Trinity Cathedral in Chicago, which the members here helped win a grant recently.

You married a priest?! Shocked Just joking, of course... Wink Grin Grin
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« Reply #15 on: December 13, 2007, 01:22:41 AM »

Hello,
I sure this wasn't your intent, but it sounds like your saying that Latin devotions are inferior to Eastern ones.
SWYP?
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« Reply #16 on: December 13, 2007, 01:43:01 AM »

You married a priest?! Shocked Just joking, of course... Wink Grin Grin
LOL Cheesy

I regularly pray the Hail Mary; sometimes in Latin, sometimes in Arabic, usually in English. Is it Orthodox? I would think so, yes.  Is it orthodox, most definitely.  BTW, Wednesdays are the Glorious Mysteries.
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« Reply #17 on: December 13, 2007, 10:27:32 AM »

Definitely. St. Elizabeth, the mother of St. John the Baptist and Forerunner, first prayed it. Both are commemorated as Orthodox saints--and as Catholic saints. It is a prayer we both can pray.
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« Reply #18 on: December 13, 2007, 04:47:52 PM »

Hello,

SWYP?

The point would be that that is a very poor attitude to take for many reasons.
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« Reply #19 on: December 13, 2007, 05:35:38 PM »

Thank you all. Sorry it looks like a post and drive-by...finals and such. I'll tell you all what the "and such" is in the "Other Topics" board Wink

For the record, I'm very well aware that, as a whole, the Orthodox Church has a devotion to Mary, and that Russian Orthodox in particular have had beautiful devotions to her. It's just been my personal convert experience that it gets de-emphasixed, esp. online.

Username!'s post sums it up well:

Catholics have Marian devotions.  Orthodox have Marian devotions.  Protestants, who knows, maybe some do, some don't.  Perhaps people should be taught more in the USA that when they become Orthodox not to down play devotions to Mary or under-cut her.  It's not "Catholic" to ask Mary to pray for you, or to have devotions to her, it's Orthodox as well.  Yes, we know certain scenarios the Orthodox don't subscribe to and the Catholics do regarding to Mary.  But, Mary is not to be forgotten or downplayed because it smells "Catholic."  To many, down playing Mary smells protestant... something which the Orthodox church isn't. 

It does seem like that's exactly what's going on to make it easier for Protestants to convert to Orthodoxy when they are still wary about Marian devotion within Catholicism. For myself, I didn't think it was a big hurdle: maybe because I was not rooted in Protestant roots at all before I discovered Orthodoxy. In Matins, we say that she is "more honorable than the cherubim and more glorious beyond compare than the seraphim," so that's why I thought that what I was noticing was a little...odd.

FYI: The Cherubic Hymn is great to hum when you're a bit stressed at work  Cool
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« Reply #20 on: December 13, 2007, 05:39:02 PM »



FYI: The Cherubic Hymn is great to hum when you're a bit stressed at work  Cool
I'll try it tomorrow!  Wink
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« Reply #21 on: December 14, 2007, 02:41:59 AM »

Thank you all. Sorry it looks like a post and drive-by...finals and such. I'll tell you all what the "and such" is in the "Other Topics" board Wink

For the record, I'm very well aware that, as a whole, the Orthodox Church has a devotion to Mary, and that Russian Orthodox in particular have had beautiful devotions to her. It's just been my personal convert experience that it gets de-emphasixed, esp. online.

Username!'s post sums it up well:

It does seem like that's exactly what's going on to make it easier for Protestants to convert to Orthodoxy when they are still wary about Marian devotion within Catholicism. For myself, I didn't think it was a big hurdle: maybe because I was not rooted in Protestant roots at all before I discovered Orthodoxy. In Matins, we say that she is "more honorable than the cherubim and more glorious beyond compare than the seraphim," so that's why I thought that what I was noticing was a little...odd.

FYI: The Cherubic Hymn is great to hum when you're a bit stressed at work  Cool

Don't forget the hymn dostojno jest,

You are truly deserving of Glory, Oh Birthgiver of God.  The ever blessed and most pure Mother of Our God. More honourable than the Cherubim and beyond compare more glorious than the Seraphim, who as a virgin gave birth to God the word, true Birthgiver of God we magnify you. 
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« Reply #22 on: December 16, 2007, 07:58:12 PM »

Catholics have Marian devotions.  Orthodox have Marian devotions.  Protestants, who knows, maybe some do, some don't.  Perhaps people should be taught more in the USA that when they become Orthodox not to down play devotions to Mary or under-cut her.  It's not "Catholic" to ask Mary to pray for you, or to have devotions to her, it's Orthodox as well.  Yes, we know certain scenarios the Orthodox don't subscribe to and the Catholics do regarding to Mary.  But, Mary is not to be forgotten or downplayed because it smells "Catholic."  To many, down playing Mary smells protestant... something which the Orthodox church isn't. 

God bless !

I would say, we orthodox do not have a "devotion" or different "devotions" but we venerate the Theotokos more than anything/one else beside God.

But I have made the same experience, that sometimes orthodox are influenced by protestant thinking,
when speaking of the Most Holy Mother of God and Evervirgin Mary.

Patriarch Sergij:

The most characteristic feature of Church piety as differing from non-church piety, i. e. that of Protestantism or sectarianism, is undoubtedly the veneration of the Mother of God. Among the rich and many Orthodox Catholic Divine Services, it would be indeed difficult to discover even a single ceremony in which there is no turning to the Theotokos, either in glorification of Her or with thanksgiving for Her intercession and help.

.......True to her immemorial Tradition the Orthodox Catholic Church finds difficulty, it would seem, in adequately praising the Mother of God and knows no bounds for her glorification. For our Church, the Mother of God is "higher than all the creatures of heave n and earth;" "more honorable than the Cherubim and beyond compare more glorious than the Seraphim." In agreement with this, the intercession of the Virgin Mary also, surpasses the level of other intercessions (mediations) in significance and power. We s ing: "Abandon thou not me to human intercession (and such is the intercession of all the saints), but thyself protect and be merciful unto us." In the service for the Dormition of the Theotokos, (where the Church attains the climax in the glorification of the Mother of God), it plainly says: "Thy glory is Godlike in sublimity," i. e. resembling and comparable only to that of God.

......The basis for such boundless magnification of the Mother of God for our Church is not merely, so to say, the outward, objective, service of the Mother of God for the salvation of mankind and is not only the fact that the Virgin Mary became the Mother of God in the flesh. Her moral perfection and inner worthiness together with the highest degree of holiness attainable by mankind through the action of the Grace of God, conformed with that highest of all services, namely, that of the Mother of God. Such is t he innermost meaning of the direction which the teachings of the Church have taken on the Ever-virginity of the Theotokos.


The Veneration of the Most Holy Theotokos is a sign of true Orthodoxy !

In CHRIST

St. Ignatios the God-bearer: "He who venerates the Mother of God will cerntainly never be lost "!
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« Reply #23 on: December 17, 2007, 01:38:17 PM »

God bless !

The prayer-rule to the Theotokos of St. Seraphim of Sarov:

1 - 10

Our Father, Which art in the Heavens, hallowed be thy Name; Thy Kingdom come; Thy Will be done, on earth as in Heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one (1x)

Theotokos, Virgin, Rejoice Grace-filled, Mary the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the Fruit of thy womb; for thou hast borne the Saviour of our souls.(10x)

Tropar of the Nativity of the Theotokos:

Thy Nativity, O Theotokos,Virgin, has proclaimed joy to the whole universe! The Sun of Righteousness, Christ our God, has shone from thee, O Theotokos! By annulling the curse. He bestowed a blessing. By destroying death. He has granted us eternal life.

 2 - Ten:

Our Father,.....(1x)

Theotokos, Virgin,.....(10x)

Tropar of the Entry of the Theotokos

Today is the prelude of the good will of God, of the preaching of the salvation of mankind. The Virgin appears in the Temple of God, in anticipation proclaiming Christ to all. Let us rejoice and sing to Her: Rejoice, O divine Fulfillment of the Creator's dispensation!

3 - Ten:

Our Father,....(1x)

Theotokos, Virgin....(10x)

Kontakion of the Annunciation:

O victorious Leader of triumphant hosts! We, thy servants, delivered from evil, sing our grateful thanks to thee, O Theotokos! As you possess invincible might set us free from every calamity so that we may sing: Rejoice, O Unwedded Bride !

 4 - Ten:

Our Father,...(1x)

Theotokos, Virgin,....(10x)

Tropar of the Annuncation:

Today is the beginning of our salvation, the revelation of the eternal mystery! The Son of God becomes the Son of the Virgin as Gabriel announces the coming of Grace. Together with him let us cry to the Theotokos: Rejoice, O Full of Grace, the Lord is with thee !

5 - Ten:

Our Father,...(1x)

Theotokos, Virgin,.....(10x)

The meeting with Elizabeth:

Meet is it in Truth, to bless thee the Theotokos, the Ever-blessed and All-immaculate and the Mother of our God. More honourable than the Cherubim and beyond compare more glorious than the Seraphim, thee who without corruption gavest birth to God the Logos, the very Theotokos, thee do we magnify.

6 - Ten;

Our Father,....(1x)

Theotokos, Virgin,....(10x)

Tropar of the Nativity of Christ:

Thy Nativity, O Christ our God, has shone to the world the light of wisdom! For by it, those who worshipped the stars, were taught by a star to adore Thee, the Sun of Righteousness, and to know Thee, the Orient from on high. O Lord, Glory to Thee !

7 - Ten:

Our Father......(1x)

Theotokos, Virgin,....(10x)

Tropar of the Meeting of the Lord:

Rejoice, O Gracefilled Theotokos, Virgin! From you shone the Sun of Righteousness, Christ our God, enlightening those who sat in darkness! Rejoice and be glad, O righteous Elder; you accepted in your arms the Redeemer of our souls, Who grants us the Resurrection.

8 - Ten:

Our Father,...(1x)

Theotokos, Virgin;....(10x)

The flight into Egypt:

O victorious Leader of triumphant hosts! We, thy servants, delivered from evil, sing our grateful thanks to thee, O Theotokos! As you possess invincible might set us free from every calamity so that we may sing: Rejoice, O Unwedded Bride !

9 - Ten:

Our Father,.....(1x)

Theotokos, Virgin,....(10x)

Christ in the Tempel at the age of 12

O victorious Leader of triumphant hosts! We, thy servants, delivered from evil, sing our grateful thanks to thee, O Theotokos! As you possess invincible might set us free from every calamity so that we may sing: Rejoice, O Unwedded Bride !

 10 - Ten:

Our Father,....(1x)

Theotokos, Virgin,....(10x)

The Passion of Christ;

The noble Joseph, taking Thine immaculate Body down from the Tree, and having wrapped It in pure linen and spices, laid It for burial in a new tomb.

Weep not for me, O Mother, beholding in the sepulcher the Son whom thou hast conceived without seed in thy womb. For I shall rise and shall be glorified, and as God I shall exalt in everlasting glory those who magnify thee with faith and love !


11 - Ten:

Our Father,....(1x)

Theotokos, Virgin,......(10x)

Pascha;

Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death, and upon those in the tombs bestowing life ! (3x)

The Angel cried unto her, the Gracefilled: Rejoice, O pure Virgin! And again I say, rejoice!  For thy Son is risen from the grave on the third day, and hath raised the dead, O ye people, be joyful!

Shine ! Shine ! O New Jerusalem ! The glory of the Lord has shone upon thee ! Exult and be glad O Zion ! Be radiant O Pure Theotokos, in the Resurrection of thy Son !

12 - Ten:

Our Father,....(1x)

Theotokos, Virgin,...(10x)

Tropar of the Ascension

O Christ God, Thou hast ascended in Glory, granting joy to Thy disciples by the promise of the Holy Spirit. Through the blessing they were assured that Thou art the son of God, the Redeemer of the world!

13 - Ten

Our Father,....(1x)

Theotokos, Virgin,...(10x)

Tropar of Pentecost:

Blessed art Thou, O Christ our God, Who hast revealed the fishermen as most wise by sending down upon them the Holy Spirit; through them thou didst draw the world into Thy net. O Lover of Man, Glory to Thee!

14 - Ten

Our Father,....(1x)

Theotokos, Virgin;....(10x)

Tropar of the Dormition:

In giving birth, you preserved your virginity! In falling asleep you did not forsake the world, O Theotokos! You were translated to life, O Mother of Life, and by your prayers you deliver our souls from death


15 - Ten:

Our Father,...(1x)

Theotokos, Virgin,....(10x)

Meet is it

Meet is it in Truth, to bless thee the Theotokos, the Ever-blessed and All-immaculate and the Mother of our God. More honourable than the Cherubim and beyond compare more glorious than the Seraphim, thee who without corruption gavest birth to God the Logos, the very Theotokos, thee do we magnify.


All who pray this rule, receive a special blessing from the Mother of God.

In CHRIST

There is also the Psalter to the Theotokos by St. Ephraim ( 150 Psalms/ 20 Kathismas)


Grammatical corrections only - Thomas
« Last Edit: December 17, 2007, 03:55:01 PM by Thomas » Logged
Tags: chotki rosary Theotokos Marian devotions Jesus Prayer 
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