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Author Topic: The Golden Compass movie: mainstream paganism propaganda to the max  (Read 7753 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: November 30, 2007, 02:31:46 AM »

Dear Brothers and Sisters, This is a very important issue to be aware of, for those of us with children, especially, but also for all of us - to be conscious of how the media is used to promote distrust and even hatred of God, Christ and the church.  We have to be so watchful of what images and views we allow our children to absorb (and even we, ourselves).
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The Golden Compass
"Guess what? I have my own demon!"
By Linda Harvey

That's what some children may soon be telling or not telling  their parents, encouraged by the movie "The Golden Compass," starring Nicole Kidman, which opens Dec. 7. Chances are your child's friends will be rushing to see it, but parents: beware.
 
In this movie, every human has a personal "daemon" (pronounced, yes, "dee-mon"), and on the film's official website, you can "Meet Your Daemon," which happens after one answers a questionnaire. The site explains that these daemons take the form of an animal and represent a person's soul living outside one's body.
And that's just for starters. As the pagan worldview continues, much of action in the film centers around a golden compass, which is a tool of divination. Only the girl heroine, Lyra, knows how to interpret its mysterious signs and symbols. A colorful representation of this device is featured on the film's website to further intrigue our youngsters, and plans are in the works for a toy replica. Soon, adoring fans can be seers right in their own bedrooms
 
This lavish production has Oscar written all over it. Based on the novel by Philip Pullman, "The Golden Compass" is an epic of global power struggles with hostility toward Christianity at the center. Pullman has been quoted in interviews as saying he is an atheist, but that label is highly misleading. There is spirituality here, and it's as blatantly occult as it gets.
 
Pullman's tales combine clever plots grounded in dark nihilism with a fault pagan cosmology. Everyone believes in something, and Pullman does, too, whether he will admit it or not. The plot revolves around spiritism, magical thinking, mysterious visions, parallel worlds, and yet as always with pagan beliefs, they come off as glitteringly empty. The lonely hopelessness of the child characters in the book made me want to jump off a cliff, and that's a researching adult's reaction. How would a vulnerable child feel?
 
The main character, Lyra, is a neglected pre-teen girl (played in the movie by Dakota Blue Richards), raising herself while residing among the scholars at Oxford University, in a world with similarities to early 20th century Britain. Lord Asriel (played by actor Daniel Craig) is her "uncle" who turns out to be her father, a powerful scholar/explorer researching the spiritual/molecular phenomenon of something called Dust. A cold, egotistical man, he pops in and out of Lyra's life as does her glamorous, calculating mother, Mrs. Coulter (Nicole Kidman).
 
These two conceived Lyra in an adulterous union while Mrs. Coulter was married to another man. She became a widow when Asriel killed her former husband. Somehow, Mrs. Coulter still heads a shady agency of the ruling religious Magisterium. This group kidnaps children and in an Arctic laboratory performs experiments related to Dust, which we learn is the same as Original Sin, only in measurable particles. Children have little of it; after puberty, humans start attracting Dust.
 
Meanwhile, Asriel has also traveled far north while researching Dust and has been captured by a kingdom of armored bears. (Don't you just hate it when that happens?) So Lyra sets out toward the Arctic with a team of explorers to try to find the children and her father. She discovers the children are being horribly mutilated and killed. The mutilation? They are severed from their precious animal "daemons." And, naturally, the "Christian" church is behind it! Like ripping away the pagan version of teddy bears from little kids. Yes, my church does that to any child we can find, how about yours?
 
And poor Lyra's heart breaks as she learns about the involvement of both her mother and father in these gruesome experiments on children in the name of science fiction. These are your "Golden Compass" family values.
 
The ruling Magisterium answers to a not-so-powerful god. >From the get-go, the Magisterium and its deity are the enemy. Somehow, young Lyra is destined to contend with this body in a future contest, and for those unfortunate enough to read this book and its sequels, we learn her "destiny" is to be the new Eve who will overturn the myth that sin is bad.
 
The plot element that will resonate the most with youth, however, is the animal "daemons." Traditional witches call these "familiars," and it seems the same here. The talking daemon animal has its own name and reflects its human's personality. Lyra's daemon, Pantalaimon, is ever-changing since she's still a child. Nicole Kidman has a golden monkey daemon, Lyra's father a white snow leopard. The website highlights this theme and kids are sure to be enchanted, literally.
 
Welcome, children, to Paganism 101, as you learn to worship animal spirits and shape-shifters.
Because it's a visually exotic, sweeping production with sophisticated animation, high drama, battle scenes and a courageous girl heroine, lots of folks will be ecstatic over this movie. The Pullman novels are international best-sellers in the young adult market category, so there's a ready- made audience of eagerly waiting fans. So, parents, arm yourselves ahead of time, since media giant Scholastic Publishing (publishers of the Harry Potter books) has already sent home "Golden Compass" promo flyers in the backpacks of kids all over the country through its school book fairs.
 
And if the occult spirituality wasn't bad enough, all the elements of political correctness are here, too � the brave, spiritual female child of dubious parentage with an unchangeable destiny for greatness; cruel adults who can't be trusted; a beautiful, insightful witch who, along with other witches, has been persecuted by the ruthless Christian church; religious leaders obsessed with human sin and offering no redemption; yet "faith" is available through science fiction, talking animals � including armored polar bears� and a magical truth machine. What more could Hollywood invent in its relentless goal to de-flower, de-Christianize and paganize Western youth?
 
One gets the impression Philip Pullman is a man with huge issues, and his destructive agenda is crystal clear. Why it's being glamorized and sold to children is anybody's guess, but mine is the same as for the Potter books: Undiscerning adults are allowing greedy publishers aligned with bitter and unstable writers to take over so-called "literature" produced for children, with nightmarish results.
 
The dark spirits encircling this movie, as with the books, are palpable and will eat our young alive. If you love God and your children, don't dishonor Him and confuse them. Keep children away from "The Golden Compass."

here are the main trailers:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vK6MDIEQjMg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oj61Q5KPues

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5alYLJS4OrE&feature

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58X4o_41Frc
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« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2007, 02:50:46 AM »

This topic came up in Sunday school (shows you how much kids pay attention!) and I simply said that if I were them I would follow my parents lead......it had a nice segueway into WHY he believes what he does.

In my opinion, I do not see an issue with it. I have read the book in my past. The LotR universe is polytheistic, should we stop reading Tolkien??
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« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2007, 03:26:13 AM »

In my opinion, I do not see an issue with it. I have read the book in my past. The LotR universe is polytheistic, should we stop reading Tolkien??

Actually, that is far from the truth. In his letters, Tolkien clearly and emphatically states that the Elvish and Numenorean civilizations were pre-Christian and monotheistic. The Valar were stewards or sub-creators, not gods. They were more akin to angels---the greatest among them, Melkor, fell like Lucifer.
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« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2007, 03:41:32 AM »

I have been outgeeked. Nevertheless, my point stands. Literature is a field that is inherently based on the views of those who perceive it.

How many readers of Harry Potter thought that Dumbledore was gay before Rowling mentioned it. Not many, if any. The notion was planted. Same with this, those who wish to read into dark influences and atheistic tendencies will do so.
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« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2007, 08:02:30 AM »

She discovers the children are being horribly mutilated and killed. The mutilation? They are severed from their precious animal "daemons." And, naturally, the "Christian" church is behind it! Like ripping away the pagan version of teddy bears from little kids. Yes, my church does that to any child we can find, how about yours?

It's great. While British teacher spend her time in jail in Sudan for insulting religion after naming a teddy bear Muhammad http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7120263.stm, Hollywood produces such films with great success. After that I think whether the tolerance is so wonderfull?
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« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2007, 12:18:36 PM »

Literature is a field that is inherently based on the views of those who perceive it...
those who wish to read into dark influences and atheistic tendencies will do so.


Have you even watched the film trailers?  Embarrassed

I don't see how the "dark influences" and "atheistic tendencies" could be more clear, and for that matter, nor can my priest.

Your attitude is seriously scandalizing my perception of the Orthodoxy of the moderators on this forum
(which, before now, has never been an issue).
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« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2007, 01:44:21 PM »

Aw, don't let one mod's opinion set your perception of all of us!  Personally, I'm not going to watch the movie just because it's being overly hyped and looks to be badly made.  I've yet to see anything Hollywood-born that was theologically accurate anyway.
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« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2007, 02:01:55 PM »

It's great. While British teacher spend her time in jail in Sudan for insulting religion after naming a teddy bear Muhammad http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7120263.stm, Hollywood produces such films with great success. After that I think whether the tolerance is so wonderfull?

Indeed. If the Catholic Church were as sinister as the secular media and atheist hacks like Phillip Pullman like to claim, the Vatican would have burned Pullman at the stake for those books a long time ago.
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« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2007, 02:05:19 PM »

Indeed. If the Catholic Church were as sinister as the secular media and atheist hacks like Phillip Pullman like to claim, the Vatican would have burned Pullman at the stake for those books a long time ago.

LOL!   laugh

Howzabout a roast for Dan Brown, then?   Wink
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« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2007, 02:15:33 PM »

Same with him! All these loonies love to attack the Catholic Church as oppressive and tyrannical. They make huge money off these supposedly courageous attacks. For once I'd like to see them proven right---the hard way  Wink
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« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2007, 02:40:02 PM »

Same with him! All these loonies love to attack the Catholic Church as oppressive and tyrannical. They make huge money off these supposedly courageous attacks. For once I'd like to see them proven right---the hard way  Wink

Well, it's an easy buck to make.  Chose a big target that will undoubtedly raise a few hackles and appeal to the conspiracy theorists.  Voila, they've made enough to sit back and count the green.   Roll Eyes  I have to admit, I was delighted to see Dan Brown go through the plagiarism trial.  Just proves that he's a hack writer with little talent.
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« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2007, 05:30:41 PM »

It was a novel people! Fiction! As in made up! Now what really choked me is the book Brown supposedly plagiarized is still marketed as non-fiction, though the theory/premise was exposed as a hoax, and it was a blantant act of shoddy research anyways.
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« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2007, 05:42:22 PM »

It was a novel people! Fiction! As in made up! Now what really choked me is the book Brown supposedly plagiarized is still marketed as non-fiction, though the theory/premise was exposed as a hoax, and it was a blantant act of shoddy research anyways.

What gets me more than the content of the book was how terribly written it was.  I can handle pulp fiction BS, but making every 2-page chapter a cliffhanger by not ending a sentence is amateur at best.  And don't get me started on the ending... "Oh, you thought it was this person who dunnit?  No it was this never before revealed person I just made up because I couldn't think of a way to tie it all together!"   Huh
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« Reply #13 on: November 30, 2007, 06:08:50 PM »

I read the first line of "Davinci Code" and winced.  It did not make me want to read it and so far, I haven't

I did read "The Golden Compass" and as an alternate Earth scienti-fantasy it wasn't bad.  Pullman has some very interesting ideas and images, like the armored bears. The "Daemons" are not demons as in devils or supernatural evil.  They are an embodiment of a person's self and soul more like. As childrent the daemon can change form to many sorts of creature- it's a shorthand for the turns and development as children grow.  At puberty, that is when a person is becoming more settled the 'daemon' settles into one form which is an indication of the persons character and bent.  The daemon is always the opposite sex of it's human. (symbolism alert!  Smiley )  Servants are all shown with daemons who are some breed of dog, while scholars tend to have things like ravens, owls and so forth (More symbolism)

The 'mutilation' of the children is 'severing' them from their 'daemon' in effect killing their interior being, their soul as it were. The reason for it escapes me at the moment.  There is no reference to actual Christianity or Jesus that I recall.  The Magisterium is a kind of dim massive unexplained blob (it's been some time since I read it).

 Volume 2 "The Subtle Knife" was not as good, and I found it disquieting to read of a young man having a hand maimed by the knife of the title.  "The Amber Spyglass" was a slog and in places repellant. It has a bad case of "I'm going to stand on your feet and yell in your face "THIS IS THE IMPORTANT MESSAGE! Did you GET it?!?  HERE's the MESSAGE!"  As I recall there was also a sense of "Oops I have to wrap this up and I'm nearly out of paper.  Here- it's all tidy and done. The End." which irritated me too.   

If past movies are any indication, I suspect that this movie will be for the flash and wow look, and not much for philosophizing.  I don't know how much it will be "loosely based on a title"  Cheesy like one that was made of "The Dark Is Rising" (The trailer made me cringe, they've taken much too much out and put in some bizarre stuff.  Like the main character is American because someone thought that the viewers wouldn't be able to identify with a boy who was British!  Good golly! 

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« Reply #14 on: November 30, 2007, 10:42:24 PM »

Aw, don't let one mod's opinion set your perception of all of us!


Don't worry... I wasn't trying to make any general statement, I was just a little shocked at the response.

You guys are great!  Wink
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« Reply #15 on: November 30, 2007, 11:15:03 PM »

It was a novel people! Fiction! As in made up! Now what really choked me is the book Brown supposedly plagiarized is still marketed as non-fiction, though the theory/premise was exposed as a hoax, and it was a blantant act of shoddy research anyways.

It's still blasphemous.
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« Reply #16 on: November 30, 2007, 11:19:06 PM »

The "Daemons" are not demons as in devils or supernatural evil.  They are an embodiment of a person's self and soul more like.

I assume you have not read much about “animal spirits” in paganism and the obvious demonic origin of them.

There is no reference to actual Christianity or Jesus that I recall.  The Magisterium is a kind of dim massive unexplained blob (it's been some time since I read it)

Seriously, did anyone actually watch the trailers I posted?  The Magisterium rulers are shown wearing Latin-style clothing/vestments and the Magisterium soldiers look like “evil/tyrannical” Russian monks who are battling the “good/heroic” witches.

In one of the trailers it shows a ruler of the Magisterium proclaim:
“That is heresy!”
A man then responds by saying:
“No, that is the truth!”

And consider a quote from the actress (who plays the head witch) in reference to her character in the movie:
“She’s not like the traditional evil witch.  She’s very maternal, very nurturing…”


The anti-Christian message here is anything but subtle.
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« Reply #17 on: November 30, 2007, 11:19:48 PM »

It's still blasphemous.

Thank you... and Amen!
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« Reply #18 on: December 01, 2007, 11:32:56 AM »

The anti-Christian message here is anything but subtle.

My 27 yo son read this book.  He said it is clearly promoting atheism and wouldn't recommend it to any parent to let their child see it.

FWIW.
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« Reply #19 on: December 01, 2007, 11:35:43 AM »

He said it is clearly promoting atheism
Shocking news...ready for it?

Phillip Pullman is...

Sure you're ready?

an...

Last chance to back out...

ATHEIST!
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« Reply #20 on: December 01, 2007, 12:17:57 PM »

The director gave an interview on MTV.com last week saying that he had to make a lot of compromises and water down the Golden Compass so that the big studio would allow it (New Line told him filming the book as-is would give it no commercial viability). He also said they were right, and he said his mission was to do all he could do to make the Golden Compass commercially successful so that he would be able to film the whole trilogy.

He said it would be impossible to water down the following two books without destroying their important themes, and the only way they would be made was if the Golden Compass became a big hit. So the Golden Compass was sacrificed so that the following two (more repellant) books could be made into films (and coloring books and action figures and all that other crap for the kiddies).

Of course, he also said he hopes the films get kids to read the books.

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« Reply #21 on: December 01, 2007, 05:48:31 PM »

Seriously, did anyone actually watch the trailers I posted?
I did.  Thanks for posting them.

Quote
The Magisterium rulers are shown wearing Latin-style clothing/vestments and the Magisterium soldiers look like “evil/tyrannical” Russian monks who are battling the “good/heroic” witches.
And any RC, along with the majority of Orthodox, should instantly recognize that Catholics use "Magisterium" as an official name for their college of bishops in communion with Rome.

Quote
In one of the trailers it shows a ruler of the Magisterium proclaim:
“That is heresy!”
A man then responds by saying:
“No, that is the truth!”

And consider a quote from the actress (who plays the head witch) in reference to her character in the movie:
“She’s not like the traditional evil witch.  She’s very maternal, very nurturing…”


The anti-Christian message here is anything but subtle.
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« Reply #22 on: December 01, 2007, 05:55:32 PM »

It was a novel people! Fiction! As in made up!
And yet, fiction is an excellent means for communicating a deeper message the writers want their readers to receive, even moreso because worlds are so apparently innocuous when they're recognized as made-up.  I think on this count that Tolkien was very aware of how much his Christian world view radiated through his novels, even though this was not his explicit intent.  Fiction is not as innocuous as you might think, especially to young minds still open to suggestion.
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« Reply #23 on: December 01, 2007, 08:02:15 PM »

It's still blasphemous.

Blasphemy is the default position of Hollywood Grin, there is no need to comment on that. Instead we should applaud them when they produce something that is not blasphemous. This is my philosophy.

"witches" fighting the "magisterium"? Undecided
They truly are the masters sublime messages Grin
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« Reply #24 on: December 04, 2007, 02:13:34 PM »

I assume you have not read much about “animal spirits” in paganism and the obvious demonic origin of them.

It is often wise to not make assumptions or think that one knows what another on-line person may have read or studied.   Which sort of "paganism" might apply?  Native American vison quests?  Shinto?  Indigenous Australians' "Dreaming"? 

I was addressing the world of one author's imagining and how he deliniated his human characters.  Nothing more. 

Quote
Seriously, did anyone actually watch the trailers I posted?  The Magisterium rulers are shown wearing Latin-style clothing/vestments and the Magisterium soldiers look like “evil/tyrannical” Russian monks who are battling the “good/heroic” witches.

Iirc, it's also centered in Geneva, just to get more 'targets' in the sights maybe.


Philip Pullman is an atheist.  I read the first book long ago and before his personal beliefs were widely known.  He also does not like C. S. Lewis and the "Dark Materials" books are a kind of "anti-Lewis/anti-Narnia".  He's not keen on Tolkien and the "Lord of the Rings" either. He is opinionated (but then many of us are.  Smiley ) and he gets coverage for being that way on matters that upset others.   He has some skill as a writer, his descriptions of places and people can be very good indeed. But in this series he's got a Message and it tramps over the story line. 

I was frankly surprised when I first read that this movie would be made.  But, in my own jaundiced way, I figured that some movie studio saw that there was money to be made in movies  based on fantasy books (LotR, Narnia, Eregon) and found "The Golden Compass".  I would be quite surprised if "The Amber Spyglass" is filmed (unless there's alot changed or left out or ignored).  Otoh, things like calls for boycotts are providing free publicity as the news services are often willing to pick up on such stories.  Then the air of "Oooh, other people are upset about this. It must be good" comes into play sometimes.

Ebor

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« Reply #25 on: December 04, 2007, 02:14:38 PM »

They truly are the masters sublime messages Grin

'sublime' like a 2x4 up-side the head.   Cheesy

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« Reply #26 on: December 04, 2007, 07:43:04 PM »

As I tell my students who are victims of bullying:
"Ignore him. Don't react. He'll lose interest pretty soon."
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« Reply #27 on: December 04, 2007, 08:57:54 PM »

Anyone consider the possibility that the "God" Pullman wants to "kill" is a "God" that deserves to be "killed"? Roll Eyes
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« Reply #28 on: December 04, 2007, 10:00:44 PM »

Anyone consider the possibility that the "God" Pullman wants to "kill" is a "God" that deserves to be "killed"? Roll Eyes

Have you considered that to an atheist, it's all the same?  They reject any notion of God, you realize.  Pullman wrote these books to promote an atheist worldview to children, and he hasn't exactly made a secret of it either.  Atheists of a militant variety twist the view of God to one that is easy to hate and reject.  It helps their case that there are those who truly believe in such a God.  Can't quite call it a true straw-man argument in this case, all things considered.  To them it is all varying shades of belief in the same mental illness, and our belief is dangerous, stupid, fill-in-the-blank-with-any-foul-words-and-disparaging-ad-hominem-comments.  They toned down the movie a little so as not to 'offend' and are making sure it comes out around Christmas.  Oh joy!  What better time than Christmas to try to deconvert those who hold to a cultural faith and are more adherants of selfish materialism anyway.  I refuse to buy the books and watch the movie on principle.  It isn't as if our children need any extra help deconverting these days in our culture.
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« Reply #29 on: December 04, 2007, 10:26:15 PM »

Philip Pullman is an atheist.  I read the first book long ago and before his personal beliefs were widely known.  He also does not like C. S. Lewis and the "Dark Materials" books are a kind of "anti-Lewis/anti-Narnia".  He's not keen on Tolkien and the "Lord of the Rings" either. He is opinionated (but then many of us are.  Smiley ) and he gets coverage for being that way on matters that upset others.   He has some skill as a writer, his descriptions of places and people can be very good indeed. But in this series he's got a Message and it tramps over the story line. 

I was frankly surprised when I first read that this movie would be made.  But, in my own jaundiced way, I figured that some movie studio saw that there was money to be made in movies  based on fantasy books (LotR, Narnia, Eregon) and found "The Golden Compass".  I would be quite surprised if "The Amber Spyglass" is filmed (unless there's alot changed or left out or ignored).  Otoh, things like calls for boycotts are providing free publicity as the news services are often willing to pick up on such stories.  Then the air of "Oooh, other people are upset about this. It must be good" comes into play sometimes.

Ebor

I think you are right about taunting for media coverage. The more publicity and controversy this movie can create the more money Pullman and Hollywood will make. I think Pullman wants Christians to be outraged and boycott the movie in order to pull the moviegoers into the theaters. The whole thing makes me ill.  Angry
It would be best to quietly ignore this movie so it will go away quickly and lose money  Cool
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« Reply #30 on: December 04, 2007, 11:01:15 PM »

Have you considered that to an atheist, it's all the same?  They reject any notion of God, you realize.  Pullman wrote these books to promote an atheist worldview to children, and he hasn't exactly made a secret of it either.

Nah, a good atheist would say that 'God is dead', not that He needs to be killed.

Quote
Atheists of a militant variety twist the view of God to one that is easy to hate and reject.  It helps their case that there are those who truly believe in such a God.  Can't quite call it a true straw-man argument in this case, all things considered.  To them it is all varying shades of belief in the same mental illness, and our belief is dangerous, stupid, fill-in-the-blank-with-any-foul-words-and-disparaging-ad-hominem-comments.

Militant atheists? Who are theists to make such claims? It's not atheists who have murdered for millenia inorder to advance their faith. To condemn atheists as 'militant', when the conduct of theists tends to be far more agressive, far more militant, and, shall we say, far less Christian, is simply dishonest.

Quote
They toned down the movie a little so as not to 'offend' and are making sure it comes out around Christmas.  Oh joy!  What better time than Christmas to try to deconvert those who hold to a cultural faith and are more adherants of selfish materialism anyway.

Sounds like they're already 'deconverted' for all intents and purposes; so if that was the intent of the movie, it seems as though they're wasting their time. But I have a sneaking suspicion that there's another motivator: veneration of that deity which is worshipped, the Almighty Dollar.

Quote
I refuse to buy the books and watch the movie on principle.  It isn't as if our children need any extra help deconverting these days in our culture.

Apparently they do need extra help thinking for themselves though; it's unfortunate that everyone is incapable of raising children to think critically and objectively assess information, with which they are presented.
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« Reply #31 on: December 04, 2007, 11:23:05 PM »

I think you are right about taunting for media coverage. The more publicity and controversy this movie can create the more money Pullman and Hollywood will make. I think Pullman wants Christians to be outraged and boycott the movie in order to pull the moviegoers into the theaters. The whole thing makes me ill.  Angry
It would be best to quietly ignore this movie so it will go away quickly and lose money  Cool

I agree, Tamara. Let us offer our devotions this week for the intention of this movie tanking this weekend.
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« Reply #32 on: December 05, 2007, 02:29:08 AM »

I agree, Tamara. Let us offer our devotions this week for the intention of this movie tanking this weekend.

Lub,

My bishop warned us to educate ourselves to the content of the movie before
we might rush out and take our children to see it. He was even wise enough not to
forbid us to see it. But he warned us that the storyline is dangerous.
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« Reply #33 on: December 05, 2007, 09:29:26 AM »

Nah, a good atheist would say that 'God is dead', not that He needs to be killed.
  And here I was thinking that those atheists who get the most press are all for getting people to kill the very idea of any God in their lives.

Quote
Militant atheists? Who are theists to make such claims? It's not atheists who have murdered for millenia inorder to advance their faith. To condemn atheists as 'militant', when the conduct of theists tends to be far more agressive, far more militant, and, shall we say, far less Christian, is simply dishonest.
  Well, if you had indeed read carefully, you would have seen that I certainly didn't call all atheists militant.  However, there are a good many of them out in this world.  It would be very naive to think otherwise.  They are every bit as odious, dangerous, and prone to act as their militant faithful counterparts.  Who am I as a theist to make such claims?  Simply one who has their eyes open.  And, it is not dishonest to point it out as this thread wasn't about the other side. 

Quote
Sounds like they're already 'deconverted' for all intents and purposes; so if that was the intent of the movie, it seems as though they're wasting their time. But I have a sneaking suspicion that there's another motivator: veneration of that deity which is worshipped, the Almighty Dollar.

Apparently they do need extra help thinking for themselves though; it's unfortunate that everyone is incapable of raising children to think critically and objectively assess information, with which they are presented.
 

For the most part, you're simply repeating what I've said in a different way.  Our culture is mostly godless anyway.  To actively encourage it instead of taking a personal stand to actively reject these influences in our own families is absurd. 

Garbage in, garbage out.  It has nothing to do with a lack of critical thinking.  One either courts the world, or rejects it.  It is quite distressing to me that any time anyone around here expresses an opinion for the desire to attempt the latter and to not allow the garbage into their home, life, whatever, it is sneered at by some around here.  What are you playing at?
« Last Edit: December 05, 2007, 09:36:25 AM by jaderook » Logged
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« Reply #34 on: December 05, 2007, 01:17:12 PM »

And here I was thinking that those atheists who get the most press are all for getting people to kill the very idea of any God in their lives.

But, of course, Nietzsche predicted this:

'Here the madman fell silent and looked again at his listeners; and they, too, were silent and stared at him in astonishment. At last he threw his lantern on the ground, and it broke into pieces and went out. "I have come too early," he said then; "my time is not yet. This tremendous event is still on its way, still wandering; it has not yet reached the ears of men. Lightning and thunder require time; the light of the stars requires time; deeds, though done, still require time to be seen and heard. This deed is still more distant from them than most distant stars--and yet they have done it themselves.'

Quote
Well, if you had indeed read carefully, you would have seen that I certainly didn't call all atheists militant.  However, there are a good many of them out in this world.  It would be very naive to think otherwise.  They are every bit as odious, dangerous, and prone to act as their militant faithful counterparts.  Who am I as a theist to make such claims?  Simply one who has their eyes open.  And, it is not dishonest to point it out as this thread wasn't about the other side. 

Well, I have noticed amongst theists a tendency to accuse atheists of being militant and forcing their beliefs down everyone's throat when they simply request the same respect and tolerance of their beliefs that others in society take for granted.

Quote
For the most part, you're simply repeating what I've said in a different way.  Our culture is mostly godless anyway.  To actively encourage it instead of taking a personal stand to actively reject these influences in our own families is absurd. 

Garbage in, garbage out.  It has nothing to do with a lack of critical thinking.  One either courts the world, or rejects it.  It is quite distressing to me that any time anyone around here expresses an opinion for the desire to attempt the latter and to not allow the garbage into their home, life, whatever, it is sneered at by some around here.  What are you playing at?

Well, I recently had an extended private discussion with a member of this forum on the exact same matter; in essence I believe it's simply that I view the individual, not the family, as the fundamental element of humanity. I probably respond the way I do because it seems to me that you're denigrating the individual and their fundamental freedoms in pursuit of your ideals of morality and family.
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« Reply #35 on: December 05, 2007, 01:33:50 PM »

My bishop warned us to educate ourselves to the content of the movie before we might rush out and take our children to see it. He was even wise enough not to forbid us to see it. But he warned us that the storyline is dangerous.

Certainly wise. A friend of mine just preached a sermon on this. I think I'll post a bit of it here. I hope he doesn't mind. Here's the end of the sermon:

Quote
But what of the children?  We do need to protect them, but we also need to teach them.  If The Golden Compass is the only spiritual instruction they receive, we’ll be in trouble.  But if they receive instruction in the faith from their parents, their priest or bishop, and the members of their community, they’ll be able to deal with movies like this, together with those who share their faith.  Let me ask you:  If our GOYA or high school group really wants to see the movie, would it be better to tell them not to go see it, or to go with them and discuss it with them afterward, helping them come to a better knowledge of our faith and how we understand the criticisms hurled against it—teaching them to look at Christ as our compass.  From personal experience, I can tell you that we might learn as much from our youth as we’d teach them.

As we think of them and of younger children, let us remember the child who is coming even now, to tell us the truth and show us the way.  At vespers for the feast of Christ’s Nativity, we will hear these words:  “You were born secretly in the cave, but heaven spoke through a star and proclaimed You to all, O Savior.  And it brought to You magi, who worshipped You in faith:  have mercy on them and on us all.”  Like the wise men, let us also follow this star to the One who is Truth Himself.  We need no golden compass to find Him.  He, after all, has already found us.
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« Reply #36 on: December 05, 2007, 03:07:10 PM »

But, of course, Nietzsche predicted this:

'Here the madman fell silent and looked again at his listeners; and they, too, were silent and stared at him in astonishment. At last he threw his lantern on the ground, and it broke into pieces and went out. "I have come too early," he said then; "my time is not yet. This tremendous event is still on its way, still wandering; it has not yet reached the ears of men. Lightning and thunder require time; the light of the stars requires time; deeds, though done, still require time to be seen and heard. This deed is still more distant from them than most distant stars--and yet they have done it themselves.'

Well, I have noticed amongst theists a tendency to accuse atheists of being militant and forcing their beliefs down everyone's throat when they simply request the same respect and tolerance of their beliefs that others in society take for granted.

Well, I recently had an extended private discussion with a member of this forum on the exact same matter; in essence I believe it's simply that I view the individual, not the family, as the fundamental element of humanity. I probably respond the way I do because it seems to me that you're denigrating the individual and their fundamental freedoms in pursuit of your ideals of morality and family.

So, you're admitting to making assumptions about me, whom you don't know, and presuming that you know what I mean.

 You know nothing about me, nor the fact I'm one of the most anti-censorship individuals that you're likely to meet.

 I'm actually a proponent of not encouraging or monetarily supporting those things I personally disagree with (and that seem to be actively out to destroy and undermine my beliefs), but if any child of mine were to bring it up and desperately wanted to read the books, I would have no trouble letting them do so and then being 100% certain to discuss the book afterwards.  However, I would ONLY do that if I felt they were old enough to handle it.  Children under a certain maturity level NEED to be protected from things of a dubious moral nature, and as a Christian, that is something that SHOULD be done in our own families.  There's nothing wrong with brainwashing our families in the correct way instead of the world's way (for people will be brainwashed one way or another, no doubt).  Should they choose to do their own thing and reject that when they're old enough, then that's their decision.

I do not need to be educated in the ways of the world, or Nietzche by anyone.  Been there done that and was a rather militant non-Christian myself for a while.  As hard as it is, I'm now trying the other way.  It might be easy for you, and that's wonderful, but it isn't so for the rest of us.  I know my limits, and I know that I can't afford to allow certain liberties for myself in my own home and life as I WILL fall rather spectacularly.

Instead of trying to argue the point with the more conservative elements (which is rather laughable from my perspective as I certainly don't qualify as a conservative in the truest sense), perhaps you wouldn't mind praying for us instead.
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« Reply #37 on: December 05, 2007, 06:30:43 PM »

So, you're admitting to making assumptions about me, whom you don't know, and presuming that you know what I mean.

No, I'm making assumptions derived from the nature of your post.

Quote
You know nothing about me, nor the fact I'm one of the most anti-censorship individuals that you're likely to meet.

I'm actually a proponent of not encouraging or monetarily supporting those things I personally disagree with (and that seem to be actively out to destroy and undermine my beliefs), but if any child of mine were to bring it up and desperately wanted to read the books, I would have no trouble letting them do so and then being 100% certain to discuss the book afterwards.  However, I would ONLY do that if I felt they were old enough to handle it.  Children under a certain maturity level NEED to be protected from things of a dubious moral nature, and as a Christian, that is something that SHOULD be done in our own families.  There's nothing wrong with brainwashing our families in the correct way instead of the world's way (for people will be brainwashed one way or another, no doubt).  Should they choose to do their own thing and reject that when they're old enough, then that's their decision.

In one breath you say you 'one of the most anti-censorship individuals that you're likely to meet', then in the next you tell me that you find censorship benificial if it fits your purpose (that is to say if the person accessing the information is likely to end up disagreeing with you).

'Truth can never be told so as to be understood, and not be believ'd.' -- William Blake

Quote
I do not need to be educated in the ways of the world, or Nietzche by anyone.  Been there done that and was a rather militant non-Christian myself for a while.  As hard as it is, I'm now trying the other way.  It might be easy for you, and that's wonderful, but it isn't so for the rest of us.  I know my limits, and I know that I can't afford to allow certain liberties for myself in my own home and life as I WILL fall rather spectacularly.

Oh, I quite disagree; we all need to be educated by  Kierkegaard, Nietzsche, Sartre, and the likes...their philosophy discusses the world after the manner that it is objectively observed. We all must confront this, regardless of whether or not we read them and their can be no disadvantage to actually understanding that which we must, by nature, confront. As for whether we are to agree or disagree with their conclusions, one is, of course, free to judge for themselves.

Quote
Instead of trying to argue the point with the more conservative elements (which is rather laughable from my perspective as I certainly don't qualify as a conservative in the truest sense), perhaps you wouldn't mind praying for us instead.

Perhaps rather than radically reacting to a perceived threat from atheism you would be content to simply pray for them?
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« Reply #38 on: December 05, 2007, 07:07:05 PM »

In one of the trailers it shows a ruler of the Magisterium proclaim:
“That is heresy!”
A man then responds by saying:
“No, that is the truth!”

It is very important to learn the context of a quote, both to learn the real meaning and to be fair to the person who says or writes it.  I found that there is more to this passage in a sentence that procedes it which has nothing to do with any point of Christianity.  Here it is *in Context*:

 
Lord Asriel: I propose to discover a world much like our own in a parallel universe.
Fra Pavel: That is heresy!
Lord Asriel: That is the truth.


"I propose to discover a world much like our own in a parallel universe."  is the "heretical idea, that there are other universes.

The word "heresy" does not always refer to religious matters.  Here is a page that refers to a "Scientific heresy" for example:
http://www.nature.com/mp/journal/v5/n4/full/4000721a.html

This does not mean that I agree with Mr. Pullman's beliefs.  But I do believe in fairness and truth even with those that I may not agree with.

Ebor
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« Reply #39 on: December 05, 2007, 08:36:29 PM »

Hello,

Here are some Catholic reviews of this movie:

Letter to Pastors about "The Golden Compass" by Bishop Jerome E. Listecki (Bishop of La Crosse)

Review of "The Golden Compass" by Diocese of La Crosse

What Every Parent Should Know About "The Golden Compass" by Sandra Miesel, Peter John Vere, JCL/M
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« Reply #40 on: December 05, 2007, 09:36:50 PM »

No, I'm making assumptions derived from the nature of your post.
  No, you are being deliberately contentious and have gone out of your way to pick an argument with me.  You're making assumptions from what you erroneously presume the nature of my post to be.  I'm beginning to wonder at your reading comprehension.

Quote
In one breath you say you 'one of the most anti-censorship individuals that you're likely to meet', then in the next you tell me that you find censorship benificial if it fits your purpose (that is to say if the person accessing the information is likely to end up disagreeing with you).
  Who said they would be likely to disagree with me?  Unless you assume all reasonable people would automatically come to your conclusions.  Also, the only people I'm speaking of censoring is my own family, children specifically (even though these are hypothetical children as I currently have none).  I challenge you to quote me word for word where I've spoken of censoring anyone else, because I can guarantee you won't find it.  Now, I suppose since you seem to be for giving kids whatever/anything, the logical outcome of that line of thinking would be that you'd be fine with someone giving a child porn.  You're arguing for that.  (I don't really think you are, but this is the sort of absurdity your argument requires.)  I'm arguing for common sense.

Quote
'Truth can never be told so as to be understood, and not be believ'd.' -- William Blake
'I hate quotations. Tell me what you know.' --Ralph Waldo Emerson


Quote
Oh, I quite disagree; we all need to be educated by  Kierkegaard, Nietzsche, Sartre, and the likes...their philosophy discusses the world after the manner that it is objectively observed. We all must confront this, regardless of whether or not we read them and their can be no disadvantage to actually understanding that which we must, by nature, confront. As for whether we are to agree or disagree with their conclusions, one is, of course, free to judge for themselves.
  No, we all need not to be educated by their likes.  Who are you to decide that we should?  It really seems that you're all for people doing whatever unless they disagree with your conclusions or how you think we should do things.  How tolerant of you.  Some of us have read philosophy and have decided we don't need philosophers telling us how to live and perceive the world. 

Quote
Perhaps rather than radically reacting to a perceived threat from atheism you would be content to simply pray for them?
  It's hardly a perceived threat; it is a real one considering people like Pullman haven't made it a secret that they're trying to get folks to deconvert.  And, I fail to see how expressing an opinion that differs from yours constitutes a radical reaction.  'Oooh, she's not going to buy the books to read or pay her money to go see the movie!  She's such a radical conservative type!  The horror!'  Also, how do you know that I don't pray for them?  I pray for specific atheists I know all the time. 
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« Reply #41 on: December 06, 2007, 12:37:33 AM »

No, you are being deliberately contentious and have gone out of your way to pick an argument with me.  You're making assumptions from what you erroneously presume the nature of my post to be.  I'm beginning to wonder at your reading comprehension.

I didn't particularly go out of my way to pick an argument; I was admiring the wise post of Jetavan and then, soon thereafter, encountered your rather hostile response, filled with typical anti-atheist propaganda and stereotypes. I considered responding with an ontological argument, but I thought, given the circumstances, a rational and cultural one would be preferable.

Quote
Who said they would be likely to disagree with me?

If you knew with certainty that they would come to the same conclusions as yourself; why would you be concerned with what they read?

Quote
Unless you assume all reasonable people would automatically come to your conclusions.

Not at all; knowledge, understanding, and, yes, even truth itself are far to subjective and relative to culture and experience to be experienced universally.

Quote
Also, the only people I'm speaking of censoring is my own family, children specifically (even though these are hypothetical children as I currently have none).  I challenge you to quote me word for word where I've spoken of censoring anyone else, because I can guarantee you won't find it.

My apologies, I argued from the assumption that brainwashing was tantamount to censorship; but, I guess, at least you arn't burning books, you're simply seeking to subject children to the psychological horrors of the North Vietnamese POW camps.

Quote
Now, I suppose since you seem to be for giving kids whatever/anything, the logical outcome of that line of thinking would be that you'd be fine with someone giving a child porn.  You're arguing for that.  (I don't really think you are, but this is the sort of absurdity your argument requires.)  I'm arguing for common sense.

While I certainly have a far more laissez-faire attitude with respect to sexuality than most here, I believe your question is a bit of a strawman. The essence of this discussion is about the free flow of ideas and the respect that the cause should be given. While the free availability of pronography is certainly a form of information and worthy of our defence, a defence of such is beyond the scope of our conversation here and would lead the matter into politics (which is forbidden on this forum).

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No, we all need not to be educated by their likes.  Who are you to decide that we should?  It really seems that you're all for people doing whatever unless they disagree with your conclusions or how you think we should do things.  How tolerant of you.  Some of us have read philosophy and have decided we don't need philosophers telling us how to live and perceive the world. 

I am not forcing anyone to do so; I am simply stating that if one is to be regarded as educated and if one is to be competant to address the realities of the world, it's reasonable to expect them to be able to engage in rational competent on the same. A fundamental element of this knowledge and capability includes at least a cursory understanding of existentialism.

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It's hardly a perceived threat; it is a real one considering people like Pullman haven't made it a secret that they're trying to get folks to deconvert.  And, I fail to see how expressing an opinion that differs from yours constitutes a radical reaction.  'Oooh, she's not going to buy the books to read or pay her money to go see the movie!  She's such a radical conservative type!  The horror!'  Also, how do you know that I don't pray for them?  I pray for specific atheists I know all the time. 

Organized boycotts are political statements, it's going far beyone the realm of 'it just doesn't interest me, so I'm not going to see/read it.' They are designed to engage in economic warfare for personal political gain; fortunately, most backfire in this day and age.
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« Reply #42 on: December 06, 2007, 06:36:36 PM »

I didn't particularly go out of my way to pick an argument; I was admiring the wise post of Jetavan and then, soon thereafter, encountered your rather hostile response, filled with typical anti-atheist propaganda and stereotypes. I considered responding with an ontological argument, but I thought, given the circumstances, a rational and cultural one would be preferable.

Typical, hostile, anti-atheist propaganda and stereotypes?  Well, the atheists I know on-line wouldn't disagree with anything I said.  Let's recap what I said:  "Have you considered that to an atheist, it's all the same?  They reject any notion of God, you realize."  Notice there's nothing there that isn't true.  Atheists reject ALL notions of God, even the cute fuzzy ones. 

"Pullman wrote these books to promote an atheist worldview to children, and he hasn't exactly made a secret of it either."  Also true.  He admits to it.

 "Atheists of a militant variety twist the view of God to one that is easy to hate and reject.  It helps their case that there are those who truly believe in such a God.  Can't quite call it a true straw-man argument in this case, all things considered."  This is also done.  FSTDT is evidence enough to support this view.  Notice my oh so careful phrasing, so I cannot be accused of painting all atheists with a broad brush.  Goodness gracious! 

"To them it is all varying shades of belief in the same mental illness, and our belief is dangerous, stupid, fill-in-the-blank-with-any-foul-words-and-disparaging-ad-hominem-comments."  Also true.  I was told this on an atheist board recently by more than one atheist. 

"They toned down the movie a little so as not to 'offend' and are making sure it comes out around Christmas.  Oh joy!  What better time than Christmas to try to deconvert those who hold to a cultural faith and are more adherants of selfish materialism anyway.  I refuse to buy the books and watch the movie on principle.  It isn't as if our children need any extra help deconverting these days in our culture."  And, finally, this is also an accurate observation of how things are 'round these parts.

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If you knew with certainty that they would come to the same conclusions as yourself; why would you be concerned with what they read?
  Proverbs 22:6  Train a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not turn from it.

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Not at all; knowledge, understanding, and, yes, even truth itself are far to subjective and relative to culture and experience to be experienced universally.
  Ah, this is a far greater issue than a response to a movie review.  That you find truth itself to be subjective, well, we're going to have little to say to each other.

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My apologies, I argued from the assumption that brainwashing was tantamount to censorship; but, I guess, at least you arn't burning books, you're simply seeking to subject children to the psychological horrors of the North Vietnamese POW camps.
  Yes, you're rather fond of the assumptions.

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While I certainly have a far more laissez-faire attitude with respect to sexuality than most here, I believe your question is a bit of a strawman. The essence of this discussion is about the free flow of ideas and the respect that the cause should be given. While the free availability of pronography is certainly a form of information and worthy of our defence, a defence of such is beyond the scope of our conversation here and would lead the matter into politics (which is forbidden on this forum).
  I don't recall actually having a question for you.

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I am not forcing anyone to do so; I am simply stating that if one is to be regarded as educated and if one is to be competant to address the realities of the world, it's reasonable to expect them to be able to engage in rational competent on the same. A fundamental element of this knowledge and capability includes at least a cursory understanding of existentialism.
  I happen to believe that if one is to be regarded as educated they should start with other things such as grammar, spelling, etc. first.  The basics go a long way.  I can't hold much respect for a field, such as philosophy, that doesn't have many women involved.  It is somehow lacking because of this.

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Organized boycotts are political statements, it's going far beyone the realm of 'it just doesn't interest me, so I'm not going to see/read it.' They are designed to engage in economic warfare for personal political gain; fortunately, most backfire in this day and age.
  Now I know you're reading a completely different thread than I am.  Who spoke of an organized boycott around here?  Please quote me where I did.
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jaderook
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« Reply #43 on: December 06, 2007, 08:50:02 PM »

Actually, don't reply to me please.  I didn't post on a review board to be goaded into a debate.  I apologize for insulting your reading comprehension and bringing to light your spelling errors.  Pray for me please.  Have a great life.
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« Reply #44 on: December 06, 2007, 10:35:07 PM »

Actually, don't reply to me please.  I didn't post on a review board to be goaded into a debate.  I apologize for insulting your reading comprehension and bringing to light your spelling errors.  Pray for me please.  Have a great life.

Take the last word, then ask me not to reply? Eh, I guess so in this case...I'm feeling more charitable than most nights. Wink

As for my spelling, reading through the paragraph you were referencing I had to read it twice to make sense of it, it was pretty bad; but, in my defence, look at the time stamp on it, by that time my hours of sobriety were long past. Grin
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"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
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