OrthodoxChristianity.net
October 21, 2014, 08:28:32 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: How far should a peace maker go to keep the peace?  (Read 2937 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Ziggernaut
Curmudgeon Extraordinaire
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 93


« on: November 29, 2007, 11:15:15 AM »

This was a question asked on another board that I thought might be worth discussing.  If this is the wrong place for it, feel free to move it, mods.

My spiritual father and I have been having an email discussion about the actions of Ss. Boris and Gleb, and the implications of those actions for us as Christians trying to lead a Christian life in this modern world.

I'd be interested in hearing the thoughts and comments of anyone else about this.  I'm still finding my way through it all, sometimes with great difficulty.

Peace and many blessings,
Jeff
Logged

"Wrong is wrong even if everyone is doing it, and right is right even if nobody is doing it."  Augustine of Hippo
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2007, 11:36:54 AM »

My spiritual father and I have been having an email discussion about the actions of Ss. Boris and Gleb,
Those of us who don't come from a Slavic tradition may not be familiar with these Saints (and I am one such person). Perhaps if you could explain what specifically about these Saints you are referring to, I could understand your question a bit better.
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
Christodoulos
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 396


« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2007, 11:43:03 AM »

Those of us who don't come from a Slavic tradition may not be familiar with these Saints (and I am one such person). Perhaps if you could explain what specifically about these Saints you are referring to, I could understand your question a bit better.

God bless !

You do not know St. Boris and St. Gleb ? Hmmmmmm

In CHRIST
Logged
Ziggernaut
Curmudgeon Extraordinaire
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 93


« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2007, 11:57:06 AM »

Those of us who don't come from a Slavic tradition may not be familiar with these Saints (and I am one such person). Perhaps if you could explain what specifically about these Saints you are referring to, I could understand your question a bit better.

The sons of St. Vladimir who chose to allow themselves to be killed rather than fight their other brother over what, I believe, amounted to succession rights.  I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, or can elaborate more.

God Bless,
Jeff
Logged

"Wrong is wrong even if everyone is doing it, and right is right even if nobody is doing it."  Augustine of Hippo
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2007, 12:06:32 PM »

The sons of St. Vladimir who chose to allow themselves to be killed rather than fight their other brother over what, I believe, amounted to succession rights.  I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, or can elaborate more.

God Bless,
Jeff
Who killed them?
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
Ziggernaut
Curmudgeon Extraordinaire
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 93


« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2007, 12:13:06 PM »

Who killed them?

Their brother.  See this: http://www.comeandseeicons.com/b/pdr13.htm
Logged

"Wrong is wrong even if everyone is doing it, and right is right even if nobody is doing it."  Augustine of Hippo
Sophie
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 217


« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2007, 12:17:29 PM »

I guess we have to do a bit of homework on our own George Smiley.

http://www.holyspiritinteractive.net/dailysaint/july/0724.asp

It´s a Catholic link but should do.
Logged

"Thoughts are like airplanes flying in the air. If you ignore them, there is no problem. If you pay attention to them, you create an airport inside your head and permit them to land!" (Priestmonk Christodoulos Aggeloglou, Elder Paisios of the Holy Mountain Mount Athos, Greece, 1998,pp. 29-30, 48)
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2007, 12:37:00 PM »

Thanks for the links guys!

Firstly, while I think Sts. Boris and Gleb acted with great Christian virtue, I don't think what they did could be called "peace making" since no "peace" was made. The Koine word translated as "peacemakers" ("eirinipoioi") literally refers to those who create/make/establish peace. In the case of Sts. Boris & Gleb, rather than peace being established, two murders were committed.

Secondly, if you are referring to the non-violence of the Saints, I think it's also a great Christian virtue in that they made a conscious decision not to attack when they personally were attacked. As St. Isaac the Syrian says:
"Let yourself be persecuted, but do not persecute others.
Be crucified, but do not crucify others.
Be slandered, but do not slander others. "

However, I think the situation is different when it comes to others being persecuted an ill treated. I have no right to accept the suffering of others, on their behalf or in their name. If it is in my power to defend and protect them, then I should make every effort to do so by using the most virtuous (or at least, less evil) means I can use.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2007, 12:37:34 PM by ozgeorge » Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
Christodoulos
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 396


« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2007, 12:46:24 PM »

This was a question asked on another board that I thought might be worth discussing.  If this is the wrong place for it, feel free to move it, mods.

My spiritual father and I have been having an email discussion about the actions of Ss. Boris and Gleb, and the implications of those actions for us as Christians trying to lead a Christian life in this modern world.

I'd be interested in hearing the thoughts and comments of anyone else about this.  I'm still finding my way through it all, sometimes with great difficulty.

Peace and many blessings,
Jeff

God bless !

They are usually called in slavonic: passion bearers-suffering bearers.

In CHRIST
Logged
Ziggernaut
Curmudgeon Extraordinaire
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 93


« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2007, 02:20:47 PM »

Thanks for the links guys!

Firstly, while I think Sts. Boris and Gleb acted with great Christian virtue, I don't think what they did could be called "peace making" since no "peace" was made. The Koine word translated as "peacemakers" ("eirinipoioi") literally refers to those who create/make/establish peace. In the case of Sts. Boris & Gleb, rather than peace being established, two murders were committed.

Secondly, if you are referring to the non-violence of the Saints, I think it's also a great Christian virtue in that they made a conscious decision not to attack when they personally were attacked. As St. Isaac the Syrian says:
"Let yourself be persecuted, but do not persecute others.
Be crucified, but do not crucify others.
Be slandered, but do not slander others. "

However, I think the situation is different when it comes to others being persecuted an ill treated. I have no right to accept the suffering of others, on their behalf or in their name. If it is in my power to defend and protect them, then I should make every effort to do so by using the most virtuous (or at least, less evil) means I can use.

Perhaps it was not quite appropriate to reference Ss. Boris and Gleb here, I'm not sure.   On the other hand, though, while their actions led to their murder, one could argue that in laying down their lives as they did, a kind of peace was established.  In so doing, no conflict arose which might have had they chosen to live and do battle with their brother and his co-horts.  So, they did, in a sense, allow "peace" to be "preserved".  I realize I may be stretching the meaning of the word "peace" here, to something like "the absence of war", but at least it's a starting place.  And believe me, I am more than willing to be educated and enlightened about all of this.  That's partly why I'm here, after all.  Smiley

God bless,
Jeff
Logged

"Wrong is wrong even if everyone is doing it, and right is right even if nobody is doing it."  Augustine of Hippo
Joab Anias
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Rome
Posts: 145


« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2007, 07:21:52 PM »

Perhaps it was not quite appropriate to reference Ss. Boris and Gleb here, I'm not sure.   On the other hand, though, while their actions led to their murder, one could argue that in laying down their lives as they did, a kind of peace was established.  In so doing, no conflict arose which might have had they chosen to live and do battle with their brother and his co-horts.  So, they did, in a sense, allow "peace" to be "preserved".  I realize I may be stretching the meaning of the word "peace" here, to something like "the absence of war", but at least it's a starting place.  And believe me, I am more than willing to be educated and enlightened about all of this.  That's partly why I'm here, after all.  Smiley

God bless,
Jeff

I think it would be safe to say that we cannot commit a sin in order to keep the peace. Would that be a fair statement?

That being said my only frame of reference is the Just War doctrine of Augustine and as a veteran soldier I found that is far from perfect and that no war that I know of has ever met its standards though some may have begun within its standard, after the war breaks out atrocities inevitably happen.

I am more interested in the use of authority to impose penalty or punishment as a means to keep the peace. When does it become unjust?

How does one determine when power is exercised excessively or not when there is a fine line? I know morality is key but what else should be considered?

Logged
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #11 on: November 29, 2007, 10:21:59 PM »

Perhaps it was not quite appropriate to reference Ss. Boris and Gleb here, I'm not sure.   On the other hand, though, while their actions led to their murder, one could argue that in laying down their lives as they did, a kind of peace was established.  In so doing, no conflict arose which might have had they chosen to live and do battle with their brother and his co-horts.  So, they did, in a sense, allow "peace" to be "preserved".  I realize I may be stretching the meaning of the word "peace" here, to something like "the absence of war", but at least it's a starting place.  And believe me, I am more than willing to be educated and enlightened about all of this.  That's partly why I'm here, after all.  Smiley

God bless,
Jeff
A Peacemaker reconciles two or more warring factions.
The consequences of the murder of St.s Boris & Gleb were far from peace. The elder brother who murdered them was Sviatopolk I Vladimirovich. When his other brother, Yaroslav, Prince of Novgorod, heard about the murder, he decided to go to war against Sviatopolk with the support from the citizens of Novgorod and the Varangians. The battle took place not far from Lubech. Sviatopolk was defeated and fled to Poland. Later, Sviatopolk returned to Rus, defeated Yaroslav with the help from his father-in-law and seized Kiev in 1018.
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
Ziggernaut
Curmudgeon Extraordinaire
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 93


« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2007, 05:38:27 PM »

I think it would be safe to say that we cannot commit a sin in order to keep the peace. Would that be a fair statement?

That being said my only frame of reference is the Just War doctrine of Augustine and as a veteran soldier I found that is far from perfect and that no war that I know of has ever met its standards though some may have begun within its standard, after the war breaks out atrocities inevitably happen.

I am more interested in the use of authority to impose penalty or punishment as a means to keep the peace. When does it become unjust?

How does one determine when power is exercised excessively or not when there is a fine line? I know morality is key but what else should be considered?



I think your first statement, Joab, is fair.  However, Ss. Boris and Gleb committed no sin.  Or am I misunderstanding you?  It was their brother who sinned.  And he had, I believe, no intention of making or keeping the peace, as witnessed by his actions.

I, too, am a veteran, but of a different army than you probably-Israeli.  But that's another story for another time and place.  When I was a Catholic, I always had difficulties with the "Just" war theory.  In fact, even before I was Catholic I had difficulties with it, which always remained unresolved.  Until lately, that is.  My spiritual father tells me, "...there is no just war theory in the Christian East. War is both tragically unavoidable and wholly avoidable; it is never justified. Those who fight and who kill, even against their will, are called to penance..."  I have come to see the wisdom of this statement, even if I still haven't worked out the "details" of it, as it were.

In a faltering attempt to answer your next question, I would tentatively suggest that there is no clear-cut answer that would fit all situations.  Certainly, as Christians  we must always be as charitable and forgiving as we possibly can, especially if we are exercising power or authority, attempting not to be excessive.  And what might be excessive in one situation may be totally appropriate in another.  (Gee, how's that for vague? Wink )  Hopefully someone else has better answers than I!

God bless,
Jeff
Logged

"Wrong is wrong even if everyone is doing it, and right is right even if nobody is doing it."  Augustine of Hippo
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,960



« Reply #13 on: November 30, 2007, 05:51:55 PM »

A Peacemaker reconciles two or more warring factions.
The consequences of the murder of St.s Boris & Gleb were far from peace. The elder brother who murdered them was Sviatopolk I Vladimirovich. When his other brother, Yaroslav, Prince of Novgorod, heard about the murder, he decided to go to war against Sviatopolk with the support from the citizens of Novgorod and the Varangians. The battle took place not far from Lubech. Sviatopolk was defeated and fled to Poland. Later, Sviatopolk returned to Rus, defeated Yaroslav with the help from his father-in-law and seized Kiev in 1018.

Btw, the sword (literally) that the king of Poland raised against the Rus to impose Sviatopolk is the only surviving piece of the Polish Crown jewels.  Interesting what they save.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Szczerbiec



Also re: Boris and Gleb: because of them the Rus were not plunged into civil war, so a year after Sviatopolk gained Kiev, Jaroslav would return and the Rus reached their zenith.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2007, 06:03:37 PM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Simayan
Site Supporter
High Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate - GOA
Posts: 816



« Reply #14 on: November 30, 2007, 06:21:04 PM »

If, for example, I was verbally harassed by someone, I would not insult them back in order to keep the peace.

However, if I were to find someone being attacked on the street by a robber, I wouldn't walk up calmly and try to peacefull resolve the situation, but rather tackle the attacker and physically restrain him.

These two saints are indeed commendable for not bringing violence futher, but as others have stated, they didn't "create" peace.
Logged

"He will wipe every tear from their eyes, and there will be no more death, nor mourning nor crying nor suffering, for the old order of things has passed away."
Joab Anias
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Rome
Posts: 145


« Reply #15 on: January 19, 2008, 10:33:41 AM »

I think your first statement, Joab, is fair.  However, Ss. Boris and Gleb committed no sin.  Or am I misunderstanding you?  It was their brother who sinned.  And he had, I believe, no intention of making or keeping the peace, as witnessed by his actions.

I, too, am a veteran, but of a different army than you probably-Israeli.  But that's another story for another time and place.  When I was a Catholic, I always had difficulties with the "Just" war theory.  In fact, even before I was Catholic I had difficulties with it, which always remained unresolved.  Until lately, that is.  My spiritual father tells me, "...there is no just war theory in the Christian East. War is both tragically unavoidable and wholly avoidable; it is never justified. Those who fight and who kill, even against their will, are called to penance..."  I have come to see the wisdom of this statement, even if I still haven't worked out the "details" of it, as it were.

In a faltering attempt to answer your next question, I would tentatively suggest that there is no clear-cut answer that would fit all situations.  Certainly, as Christians  we must always be as charitable and forgiving as we possibly can, especially if we are exercising power or authority, attempting not to be excessive.  And what might be excessive in one situation may be totally appropriate in another.  (Gee, how's that for vague? Wink )  Hopefully someone else has better answers than I!

God bless,
Jeff

I think you last paragraph answers the one previous and my question quite well at the same time. I am in accord with part of your observation of the Just War "theory" from a different perspective. While what I get is that the theory is sound, that no war has ever met its objective and probably never will so there, as of yet, have been no just wars. I think thats the whole point Augustine was trying to make, not to justify wars that had occured or were to but to theoretically contemplate how one could be just. Perhaps the only one I know of was the casting out of the disobedient from heaven. Otherwise I concur with your statement: "Those who fight and who kill, even against their will, are called to penance."

Peace.
Logged
Tags:
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.078 seconds with 42 queries.