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Author Topic: Obstacle #1: What God has joined together...  (Read 15388 times) Average Rating: 0
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Veniamin
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« Reply #90 on: December 03, 2007, 02:40:26 PM »

I dont understand this one. I lost my wife not too long ago. I was faithful and loving and patient to the end. I cant remarry with the full blessing of the Church.
But the guy whose marrige broke up because he was a bum, can.

Doesnt seem right.   

I don't think that's correct.  If I understand correctly, all second marriages are supposed to be with the penitential rite, not just those in case of a death.
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« Reply #91 on: December 03, 2007, 02:51:11 PM »

I dont understand this one. I lost my wife not too long ago. I was faithful and loving and patient to the end. I cant remarry with the full blessing of the Church.
But the guy whose marrige broke up because he was a bum, can.

Doesnt seem right.   

Marc, I am sorry to hear of the loss of your wife.  May her memory be eternal!

The bum whose marriage broke up wouldn't receive the full blessing of the church, though.  In either case, if the person decided to remarry it would be considered a concession and the service used would be shorter and more focused on repentence.  St. Paul mentions why:

Quote from:  1 Corinthians 7:8-0
But I say to the unmarried and to widows that it is good for them if they remain even as I. But if they do not have self-control, let them marry; for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

Ytterbiumanalyst's link above also contains some good posts on the subject.
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« Reply #92 on: December 04, 2007, 09:59:20 PM »

That's not what I or anyone else sad.  If you were married in the church, the Church prefers that your marriage remain the only one.  If your wife dies, then the preference is to remain a widower.  But you can remarry.  If your wife leaves you, then the preference is to not re-marry.  But you can remarry.  If you leave your wife, then the preference is to not remarry.  But you can remarry.

I don't think that is the rule. I think someone who divorces can remarry ( even if he was a bum) but widowers are expected to remain alone. I think it has something to do with who your wife is in the afterlife... It's a flawed theory IMHO.

>>The guy who is a bum whose marriage breaks up will probably be required to reconcile himself with the Church before even receiving communion, let alone getting remarried.  You wouldn't have to do any such thing in order to be remarried.  So your hypothetical situation doesn't even apply.<<

Sure it does... I am expected to remain single and he is not.

>>Even if you do get remarried, and the priest uses the penitential second marriage, it is still the Church blessing the union.  Chances are, if it's the woman's first marriage, that the full Marriage service will be used instead of the penitential one.  Even if she is a widow, and you use the second service, it is still not an analogous situation to the "bum" who gets divorced, has to go to confession and be reconciled, and then have the penitential service for his second marriage.<<<

Once again.. A divorced man is not asked to remain single , a widower is.
They will cave in on any count and allow a second marriage but that is beside the point. A divorced man is not expected to remain single but a widower is.

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« Reply #93 on: December 05, 2007, 05:13:46 AM »

Once again.. A divorced man is not asked to remain single , a widower is.
They will cave in on any count and allow a second marriage but that is beside the point. A divorced man is not expected to remain single but a widower is.
I have a question. In the Orthodox Church, is a widow asked to remain single also? Or is it OK for her  to remarry?
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« Reply #94 on: December 05, 2007, 07:00:20 AM »

In the Orthodox Church, is a widow asked to remain single also? Or is it OK for her  to remarry?
Both.
It is "OK" as a concession but not remarrying is preferrable. The same rules apply to both genders- there is no crowning of a second marriage.
The only difference occurs in the case of clergy. Widowed clergy are completely forbidden a second marriage.
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« Reply #95 on: December 05, 2007, 10:27:25 AM »

I don't think that is the rule. I think someone who divorces can remarry ( even if he was a bum) but widowers are expected to remain alone. I think it has something to do with who your wife is in the afterlife... It's a flawed theory IMHO.

>>The guy who is a bum whose marriage breaks up will probably be required to reconcile himself with the Church before even receiving communion, let alone getting remarried.  You wouldn't have to do any such thing in order to be remarried.  So your hypothetical situation doesn't even apply.<<

Sure it does... I am expected to remain single and he is not.

>>Even if you do get remarried, and the priest uses the penitential second marriage, it is still the Church blessing the union.  Chances are, if it's the woman's first marriage, that the full Marriage service will be used instead of the penitential one.  Even if she is a widow, and you use the second service, it is still not an analogous situation to the "bum" who gets divorced, has to go to confession and be reconciled, and then have the penitential service for his second marriage.<<<

Once again.. A divorced man is not asked to remain single , a widower is.
They will cave in on any count and allow a second marriage but that is beside the point. A divorced man is not expected to remain single but a widower is.

Marc,

You have been given the Orthodox teaching on this (by more than one poster) yet you persist in stating that which is untrue.  In the course of discerning conversion to Orthodoxy marriage/death/divorce/remarriage has been an issue that I have done some research into (as it differs from the teachings of the Catholic Church and as it applies personally).

I have found no evidence whatever, to support your assertion that only those whose spouses die are "expected to remain single."

In cases where a marriage "ends" either by civil divorce or death it is "expected" that no remarriage will occur.  However, as a concession to human nature it is recognized in Orthodoxy that remarriages are going to happen.  As such it "allows" (perhaps tolerates is a better word) these marriages.  Both those of one who is divorced and one who is widowed who remarry are married using the same service.

You are fighting against shadows based on a flawed understanding.

Cleveland and the others who have pointed this out to you are correct.

No one is 'expected' to remarry.  It is preferable that those who divorce refrain from remarrying.  It is, likewise, preferable that those who are widows/widowers refrain from remarrying.

There is no double standard at play.
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« Reply #96 on: December 05, 2007, 11:04:23 AM »

Once again.. A divorced man is not asked to remain single , a widower is.
They will cave in on any count and allow a second marriage but that is beside the point. A divorced man is not expected to remain single but a widower is. 

Yes, the divorcee is asked to remain single.  It is a concession to allow him/her to marry again.  Yes, the widow/er is asked to remain single.  It is a concession to allow him/her to marry again.

The ideal for any Christian is either no marriage or one marriage.  Once someone enters into one marriage, then it is best for them not to enter into another, regardless of how the first one is disposed.

I know this is a touchy subject for you.  But you should understand that the "bum" of your example is at least held to the same standard as you are - and, in reality, held to a higher one, since s/he must repent before a second marriage, unlike you, who would not be required to do so if you decided to get married again.

No one is saying you cannot get married again - any widow or widower can get married again.  The only point where marriage is forbidden is if one has already been married 3 times; then the 4th+ are forbidden.
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« Reply #97 on: December 05, 2007, 04:08:55 PM »

If I could briefly revisit the issue of "eternal marriage..."  I am still trying to determine if it is truly Orthodox teaching that people are eternally married, or if it is merely a popular opinion.  I must confess I was extremely shocked to hear of this.

Let's say an Orthodox woman is married to a man, and he dies, and then she remarries, and then her next husband dies, and then she dies.  In Heaven, whose wife will she be of the two, since both of them were married to her?  Personally, I thought Christ pretty well stated that there is no marriage in Heaven, but since the Orthodox Church appears to disagree with my admittedly fallible interpretation of Scripture, whose wife will she be of the two?
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« Reply #98 on: December 05, 2007, 04:17:57 PM »

If I could briefly revisit the issue of "eternal marriage..."  I am still trying to determine if it is truly Orthodox teaching that people are eternally married, or if it is merely a popular opinion.  I must confess I was extremely shocked to hear of this.

Let's say an Orthodox woman is married to a man, and he dies, and then she remarries, and then her next husband dies, and then she dies.  In Heaven, whose wife will she be of the two, since both of them were married to her?  Personally, I thought Christ pretty well stated that there is no marriage in Heaven, but since the Orthodox Church appears to disagree with my admittedly fallible interpretation of Scripture, whose wife will she be of the two?

That sounds so much like the question Jesus was asked about the wife of the seven brothers who each died leaving his widow for the next to marry. Is that your point, I guess?
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« Reply #99 on: December 05, 2007, 04:20:39 PM »

Let's say an Orthodox woman is married to a man, and he dies, and then she remarries, and then her next husband dies, and then she dies.  In Heaven, whose wife will she be of the two, since both of them were married to her?  Personally, I thought Christ pretty well stated that there is no marriage in Heaven, but since the Orthodox Church appears to disagree with my admittedly fallible interpretation of Scripture, whose wife will she be of the two? 

It doesn't matter whose wife she will be - all relationships, while not destroyed or forgotten, will be transformed by the heavenly experience.  Christ's words were against the understanding that relationships in heaven are the same as they are on Earth - the Sadduccees, who don't believe in bodily resurrection, were essentially asking Jesus "who will this woman sleep with in the resurrection?"  His response is that she's not going to sleep with anybody, a clear indication that the relationship will be different.

If one takes the two major principles of marriage that are found in the NT: 1) They're not supposed to be terminated except for adultery, and 2) even if one spouse dies the other is to avoid remarriage, then one can see a tendency towards a principle of eternal marriage - one which is physical and emotional on Earth, but is transformed and transfigured in Heaven. 
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« Reply #100 on: December 05, 2007, 04:20:56 PM »

>>>Marc,

You have been given the Orthodox teaching on this (by more than one poster) <<<

I am sorry if you are offended by a difference of opinion....



Quote
yet you persist in stating that which is untrue.  In the course of discerning conversion to Orthodoxy marriage/death/divorce/remarriage has been an issue that I have done some research into (as it differs from the teachings of the Catholic Church and as it applies personally).

I have found no evidence whatever, to support your assertion that only those whose spouses die are "expected to remain single." <<

Look again... Widowers are expected to remain single. I am quite sure of this since I am a widower and have been counseled on this.. Plus, you need to reread the prior posts. I believe they said this too but with the modifier that the Church will cave in to human weakness and often allow you to break the rule as a concession..

Which part of that do you contend in not accurate?

Quote
>>In cases where a marriage "ends" either by civil divorce or death it is "expected" that no remarriage will occur.  However, as a concession to human nature it is recognized in Orthodoxy that remarriages are going to happen.  As such it "allows" (perhaps tolerates is a better word) these marriages.  Both those of one who is divorced and one who is widowed who remarry are married using the same service.<<


There is a stricter standard for those widowed and an even stricter standard for clergy..... You seem to want to pass over that fact and jump right into how the Church will cave into additional marriages as a concession to weakness.... You seem to miss my point.

Church will cave in as a concession

Quote
You are fighting against shadows based on a flawed understanding.

Cleveland and the others who have pointed this out to you are correct.<<

snip<<

Please watch your tone. No one likes to be "Told" or condescended to...  Thanks a million

I went through and adjusted the quote tags in order to separate your responses from Carole's original post. ~Veniamin
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« Reply #101 on: December 05, 2007, 04:26:40 PM »

If I could briefly revisit the issue of "eternal marriage..."  I am still trying to determine if it is truly Orthodox teaching that people are eternally married, or if it is merely a popular opinion.

It is a popular opinion in many circles, but you will not find it expressed in the teachings or canons of any of the major Synods. In fact, at least two canonists have pointed out its lack of consistency with the canonical tradition.

Don't worry too much about it. We only know what God reveals to us, and He hasn't revealed that much about the details of our existence after death. We know we will be alive in Christ. That's the important part. We also know that the Sacraments of the Church, including marriage, have a particularly powerful impact on our eternal life, and that the Scriptures say that God Himself unites the two into one. That's ultimately why this teaching became popular. It takes this fundamental proclamation very seriously and infuses it with sacramental piety.
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« Reply #102 on: December 05, 2007, 05:15:11 PM »

Both.
It is "OK" as a concession but not remarrying is preferrable. The same rules apply to both genders- there is no crowning of a second marriage.
The only difference occurs in the case of clergy. Widowed clergy are completely forbidden a second marriage.
OK. Here's another question concerning the Orthodox teaching. Suppose a Catholic couple marries in the RC Church. And then the wife dies. The widower then decides to convert to Orthodoxy and remarry a single, never married Orthodox lady, in the Orthodox Church. Will there be a crowning or not ?
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« Reply #103 on: December 05, 2007, 05:25:05 PM »

OK. Here's another question concerning the Orthodox teaching. Suppose a Catholic couple marries in the RC Church. And then the wife dies. The widower then decides to convert to Orthodoxy and remarry a single, never married Orthodox lady, in the Orthodox Church. Will there be a crowning or not ? 

Conjecture:

There will probably be a crowning - most bishops in this country will approve a normal wedding service if one in the couple has never been married before (excepting extreme circumstances).
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« Reply #104 on: December 05, 2007, 05:26:26 PM »

Hello,

No one is saying you cannot get married again - any widow or widower can get married again.  The only point where marriage is forbidden is if one has already been married 3 times; then the 4th+ are forbidden.
Why?
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« Reply #105 on: December 05, 2007, 05:30:34 PM »

Hello,
Why? 

Because the canons say so.  If a second marriage is a concession, then a third marriage is an extreme concession.  They decided to stop the madness there.  They only expanded it that far under pressure from an Emperor.  Otherwise, a second marriage would be extremely difficult, and a third impossible.
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« Reply #106 on: December 05, 2007, 05:35:26 PM »

Also, I should say that it is for the good of the individual that we forbid a fourth marriage. My grandmother, who has lost three husbands to various illnesses, says that she will not remarry because she doesn't want to have to bury another (She's Protestant and could remarry if she wanted to; her denomination places no restrictions on the number of times one can marry).
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« Reply #107 on: December 05, 2007, 05:47:10 PM »

Hello,

Because the canons say so.
What canons?
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« Reply #108 on: December 05, 2007, 06:55:07 PM »

Conjecture:

There will probably be a crowning - most bishops in this country will approve a normal wedding service if one in the couple has never been married before (excepting extreme circumstances).
OK
This is the remaining question I had.
Does the Orthodox Church recognise a marriage which took place between two Catholics in a RC Church?
Basically, this was the question. The idea was that the Catholic marriage between two Catholics had taken place in a Catholic Church, but then the wife dies. Then the previously Catholic widower converts to Orthodoxy and wants to marry a single Orthodox lady. Then according to what you say, there will probably be a crowning. So, this would indicate to me, that the Orthodox Church did not recognise the marriage which had taken place in a RC Church between two RC's, because now there will be a crowning??
Thank you.
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« Reply #109 on: December 05, 2007, 07:02:01 PM »

OK
This is the remaining question I had.
Does the Orthodox Church recognise a marriage which took place between two Catholics in a RC Church?
Basically, this was the question. The idea was that the Catholic marriage between two Catholics had taken place in a Catholic Church, but then the wife dies. Then the previously Catholic widower converts to Orthodoxy and wants to marry a single Orthodox lady. Then according to what you say, there will probably be a crowning. So, this would indicate to me, that the Orthodox Church did not recognise the marriage which had taken place in a RC Church between two RC's, because now there will be a crowning??

The crowning will largely be because the woman has not had a marriage previously.  I've known of situations where an Orthodox man who is a divorcee in the Church marries a single Orthodox woman who was never married and they had a crowning, because the woman was never previously married.

However, in addressing your other question, the marriage of two RC's in the RC Church has no bearing on the Orthodox Church.  If the man becomes Orthodox after he becomes a widower, I do not believe that his previous marriage will have any bearing on his upcoming one.  Now, if the girl were a divorcee, then it may be a different situation.  From a theoretical standpoint (I say this because I'm not a bishop and have never had to seriously consider this question) the previous marriage should have no bearing since he was not Orthodox and was never married in the Church.
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« Reply #110 on: December 05, 2007, 07:14:15 PM »

The crowning will largely be because the woman has not had a marriage previously. 
So there is a distinction made on the basis of gender, as to whether or not there shall be a crowning?
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« Reply #111 on: December 05, 2007, 07:16:35 PM »

So there is a distinction made on the basis of gender, as to whether or not there shall be a crowning?

No, there is no distinction made on gender - in your example (and in mine, coincidentally) the woman had no previous marriage.  If you had switched the genders in your example, then I would have switched the genders in my statement.
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« Reply #112 on: December 05, 2007, 07:24:19 PM »

No, there is no distinction made on gender - in your example (and in mine, coincidentally) the woman had no previous marriage.  If you had switched the genders in your example, then I would have switched the genders in my statement.
OK.
Thanks for taking the time to answer these questions on crowning. I like this ritual of crowning. And not crowning in the case of a marriage between two people who have been divorced makes sense.  It adds a dimension not present in the Western Church, with the theory of annulments being pushed.
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« Reply #113 on: December 05, 2007, 07:46:44 PM »

It adds a dimension not present in the Western Church, with the theory of annulments being pushed. 

Well, the theory of annulments works in the western view of marriage - if terms of the covenant were falsified or broken, then the covenant is broken.  It wouldn't work with the EO, since there is no covenant/contract involved.
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« Reply #114 on: December 05, 2007, 07:53:33 PM »

Hello,

Well, the theory of annulments works in the western view of marriage - if terms of the covenant were falsified or broken, then the covenant is broken.  It wouldn't work with the EO, since there is no covenant/contract involved.

It doesn't mean that something became broken, but that it never actually happened in the first place. We should continue this discussion of covenants in the thread I started.
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« Reply #115 on: December 05, 2007, 08:49:43 PM »

Okay, how would this work:

Man and woman married in a Jewish wedding. Man converts to Orthodoxy. Woman does not ............Woman dies. Sad

Man wants to get remarried to a Protesatant Woman who is divorced...

Whew.................. !!!     Please advise

Thanks
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« Reply #116 on: December 05, 2007, 09:17:38 PM »

Okay, how would this work:

Man and woman married in a Jewish wedding. Man converts to Orthodoxy. Woman does not ............Woman dies. Sad

Man wants to get remarried to a Protesatant Woman who is divorced...

Whew.................. !!!     Please advise

Thanks
Ok. I see you are making fun of my question.
True, it was overly scholastic in perspective.
Oh, well.
I hope you will forgive my curiosity in this matter.
Thank you kindly.
Blessings.
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« Reply #117 on: December 05, 2007, 09:35:56 PM »

Hello,

You may want to check out John Paul II's Theology of the Body since it goes into the subject of marriage, its unity and indissolubility, etc.
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« Reply #118 on: December 05, 2007, 10:01:29 PM »

Ok. I see you are making fun of my question.
True, it was overly scholastic in perspective.
Oh, well.
I hope you will forgive my curiosity in this matter.
Thank you kindly.
Blessings.

No no no  !!!!!!  LOL

This is my exact situation...... yes, my life is so bizarre you can mistake it for a joke... Have mercy  Smiley
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« Reply #119 on: December 05, 2007, 10:06:43 PM »

No no no  !!!!!!  LOL

This is my exact situation...... yes, my life is so bizarre you can mistake it for a joke... Have mercy  Smiley
So. you were married in a Jewish wedding? And you want to get married to a divorced Protestant in a Greek Orthodox Church?
Yes, this is another one of those interesting situations that proves that life is stranger than fiction.
From a Catholic point of view, they allow divorce and remarriage for a Jew who converts to Catholicism. Of course, the Protestant wife to be would have to get an annulment from her previous marriage. I think it is referred to as the Pauline privilege. But I don't know how it works in the Orthodox Church.
At first, i thought it was not a real situation.
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« Reply #120 on: December 05, 2007, 10:43:31 PM »

Hello,

It doesn't mean that something became broken, but that it never actually happened in the first place. We should continue this discussion of covenants in the thread I started.

This is what I don't understand.  Couples who have been married for 10/20/30+ years and who have children are told their marriage never took place?!?
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« Reply #121 on: December 05, 2007, 10:50:31 PM »

Hello,

This is what I don't understand.  Couples who have been married for 10/20/30+ years and who have children are told their marriage never took place?!?
Yes, if there was something that barred a Sacrament from taking place. In most cases it is declared a defect in intent. For every Sacrament the minister must have the proper intent - that is to do what the Church does when administering the Sacrament. In the Sacrament of Matrimony, the ministers are the couple. So, if one of the couple did not have the proper intent (i.e., was mentally incompetent, too immature to understand the nature of marriage, was under duress, etc.) then no Sacrament took place.

The other side of the coin is whether annulments are granted way too readily today. But that doesn't affect what an annulment is.
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« Reply #122 on: December 05, 2007, 11:12:16 PM »

Dear Athansios,

This is a hard pill to swallow. If what your saying is accurate, i think Rome should drop their tradition and take up the Orthodox tradition. The implication is that there are times under certain circumstances that the sacraments can be null and void. This implication would not be limited to matrimony, but to the Eucharist as well. A psycho priest who is eventually defrocked could very well fall under the category of "anullment". That his consecration of the Eucharist was null and void, that the change of the Gifts never took place. It would also brings into question the 'validity' of his ordination as well, suggesting he was nothing more than a layman in a cassock.

Likewise if the marriage is considered as if it never took place, it suggests the couple were soley fornicators who have birthed bastard children!   
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« Reply #123 on: December 05, 2007, 11:19:28 PM »

Hello,

This is a hard pill to swallow.
But isn't so much of the Faith hard to swallow - some things more than others (especially in today's world). Wink


A psycho priest who is eventually defrocked could very well fall under the category of "anullment". That his consecration of the Eucharist was null and void, that the change of the Gifts never took place.
That is true, if the Priest is out of his mind, then he wasn't properly confecting the Eucharist. It could happen but it would be rare. Candidates are screened before admittance to the seminary and the Bishop would probably notice the Priests weird behavior or heard about it from one of the parishoners. If the Priest is mad enough to be incapable of have the proper intent, he almost certainly will show other highly visible signs of madness.


It would also brings into question the 'validity' of his ordination as well, suggesting he was nothing more than a layman in a cassock.
No, because the Bishop is the minister of the Sacrament of Holy Orders, not the candidate for ordination.


Likewise if the marriage is considered as if it never took place, it suggests the couple were soley fornicators who have birthed bastard children!
The Catholic Church uses in this case what the Orthodox would term 'economy' for those involved.
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« Reply #124 on: December 05, 2007, 11:24:10 PM »

So. you were married in a Jewish wedding? And you want to get married to a divorced Protestant in a Greek Orthodox Church?
Yes, this is another one of those interesting situations that proves that life is stranger than fiction.
From a Catholic point of view, they allow divorce and remarriage for a Jew who converts to Catholicism. Of course, the Protestant wife to be would have to get an annulment from her previous marriage. I think it is referred to as the Pauline privilege. But I don't know how it works in the Orthodox Church.

She may well convert to Orthooxy as well..........

>> first, i thought it was not a real situation.
<<

Yeah....well         Go figure
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« Reply #125 on: December 06, 2007, 01:19:29 AM »

I am a bastard. Does it have any import or significance? None whatsoever. None at all.

Now, back in the Middle Ages, there might have been some restrictions for me (it was generally frowned upon for bastards to enter Holy Orders, though there were many exceptions). But at that time, my Catholic father would not have been able to civilly "divorce" his first wife and "marry" my Catholic mother in a Methodist church either.
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« Reply #126 on: December 06, 2007, 03:20:53 AM »

She may well convert to Orthooxy as well..........
Hey Marc:
    Congratulations and best wishes on your upcoming marriage. Many years and every success.
Take care.
Stan
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« Reply #127 on: December 07, 2007, 12:01:02 AM »

That is true, if the Priest is out of his mind, then he wasn't properly confecting the Eucharist. It could happen but it would be rare. Candidates are screened before admittance to the seminary and the Bishop would probably notice the Priests weird behavior or heard about it from one of the parishoners. If the Priest is mad enough to be incapable of have the proper intent, he almost certainly will show other highly visible signs of madness.

According to Latin teaching, the priest could also lack proper intent by believing that the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is a symbolic meal and not a true sacrifice offered to God for the four ends of adoration, supplication, propitiation and thanksgiving.  Furthermore, a bishop would invalidly ordain a candidate to the priesthood if he would intend not to confect the true sacrament of Holy Orders.  As you can see, the same rationale that is used to support the system of annulments could just as easily be applied to any other Roman Catholic sacrament.  I hope that we don’t eventually see a trend of Latin priests who begin proclaiming that they never really celebrated true Masses because they never believed that the Mass was a sacrifice, and bishops who proudly proclaim that they never confected the sacrament of holy orders because they believed that Catholic priests were equal to Protestant ministers.  Such widespread admission would make the annulment crises look conservative and the disturbing thing is that the Roman Catholic belief system has the possibility of this occurring written into its intentional (as opposed to canonical) understanding of the validity of the sacraments. 

God bless,

Adam
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« Reply #128 on: December 07, 2007, 12:07:32 AM »

Hello,

According to Latin teaching, the priest could also lack proper intent by believing that the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is a symbolic meal and not a true sacrifice offered to God for the four ends of adoration, supplication, propitiation and thanksgiving.  Furthermore, a bishop would invalidly ordain a candidate to the priesthood if he would intend not to confect the true sacrament of Holy Orders.  As you can see, the same rationale that is used to support the system of annulments could just as easily be applied to any other Roman Catholic sacrament.  I hope that we don’t eventually see a trend of Latin priests who begin proclaiming that they never really celebrated true Masses because they never believed that the Mass was a sacrifice, and bishops who proudly proclaim that they never confected the sacrament of holy orders because they believed that Catholic priests were equal to Protestant ministers.  Such widespread admission would make the annulment crises look conservative and the disturbing thing is that the Roman Catholic belief system has the possibility of this occurring written into its intentional (as opposed to canonical) understanding of the validity of the sacraments. 

God bless,

Adam
I doubt that would happen. That's like saying, what if an asteroid hit the earth and wiped out civilization. Yeah, it could happen - and yeah, small stuff hits the earth - but a E.L.E. happening in our lifetimes - don't bet the paycheck on it.
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« Reply #129 on: December 07, 2007, 12:14:32 AM »

According to Latin teaching, the priest could also lack proper intent by believing that the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is a symbolic meal and not a true sacrifice offered to God for the four ends of adoration, supplication, propitiation and thanksgiving.  Furthermore, a bishop would invalidly ordain a candidate to the priesthood if he would intend not to confect the true sacrament of Holy Orders.  As you can see, the same rationale that is used to support the system of annulments could just as easily be applied to any other Roman Catholic sacrament.  I hope that we don’t eventually see a trend of Latin priests who begin proclaiming that they never really celebrated true Masses because they never believed that the Mass was a sacrifice, and bishops who proudly proclaim that they never confected the sacrament of holy orders because they believed that Catholic priests were equal to Protestant ministers.  Such widespread admission would make the annulment crises look conservative and the disturbing thing is that the Roman Catholic belief system has the possibility of this occurring written into its intentional (as opposed to canonical) understanding of the validity of the sacraments. 

God bless,

Adam
This annulment business is something that is disturbing. Not only is it disturbing, but it really strains credibility. I can see where a marriage would not be valid if one of the partners was already married and this was hidden from the other person. So far this is OK. but it probably doesn't happen too often this way, as the statistics before Vatican II, show that there were very few marriage annulments granted. For example, in the USA, in 1930, there were 9 annulments granted for that year. This contrasts rather sharply, with the number being granted today, something like 50,000 or 60,000 per year, and they are granted on very flimsy grounds, like my spouse has been spending too much time in the gym, so this indicates that he did not have the proper intention for marriage. So after raising a family, and living together for ten or twenty years, the wife finds herself a new boyfriend and wants a divorce because her husband has been spending too much time in the gym. And then the Church declares that there never was any marriage in the first place because of this or some other ridiculous reason that never would have been brought up in the first place, except that the wife now wants a divorce. We are supposed to beleive that 60,000 Catholic couples per year in th eUSA didn;t really know what they were doing when they got married? Why did they go through all of the bother to have a wedding party and send out all those invitations. Oh, I get it. It was just a charade?!?!
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« Reply #130 on: December 07, 2007, 12:23:51 AM »

I doubt that would happen. That's like saying, what if an asteroid hit the earth and wiped out civilization. Yeah, it could happen - and yeah, small stuff hits the earth - but a E.L.E. happening in our lifetimes - don't bet the paycheck on it.

Actually, this isn't as hypothetical as you may wish to think.  The majority of Latin priests in the West have been trained to downplay and even ignore the sacrificial nature of the Liturgy.  And in Western Europe, lay concelebration is the norm, thus revealing that these priests don't believe in the true nature of the Liturgy and their American priestly counterparts are often indifferent to such practices.  Additionally, the misguided ecumenism in the Latin Church runs the risk of causing already liberal bishops to equate Catholic priests and Protestant ministers as essentially the same, thus invalidating their consecration according to Latin teaching.  

However, let us go onto another issue.  One of the questions that have always intrigued me is the state of marriages in the medieval ages in light of the teaching on annulments.  If a marriage can be revealed to have never occurred due to the intention of one of the spouses to not choose to be married, wouldn't this cause all marriages that were arranged in the medieval and even pre-modern world to be invalid?  

God bless,

Adam
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« Reply #131 on: December 07, 2007, 12:35:20 AM »

Hello,

This annulment business is something that is disturbing. Not only is it disturbing, but it really strains credibility. I can see where a marriage would not be valid if one of the partners was already married and this was hidden from the other person. So far this is OK. but it probably doesn't happen too often this way, as the statistics before Vatican II, show that there were very few marriage annulments granted. For example, in the USA, in 1930, there were 9 annulments granted for that year. This contrasts rather sharply, with the number being granted today, something like 50,000 or 60,000 per year, and they are granted on very flimsy grounds, like my spouse has been spending too much time in the gym, so this indicates that he did not have the proper intention for marriage. So after raising a family, and living together for ten or twenty years, the wife finds herself a new boyfriend and wants a divorce because her husband has been spending too much time in the gym. And then the Church declares that there never was any marriage in the first place because of this or some other ridiculous reason that never would have been brought up in the first place, except that the wife now wants a divorce. We are supposed to beleive that 60,000 Catholic couples per year in th eUSA didn;t really know what they were doing when they got married? Why did they go through all of the bother to have a wedding party and send out all those invitations. Oh, I get it. It was just a charade?!?!

Like I said earlier, there are two elements. What an annulment is itself.

And the imprudent dispensing of them in the Catholic Church today, which is the element that disturbs you (it upsets me too).
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« Reply #132 on: December 07, 2007, 12:38:28 AM »

they are granted on very flimsy grounds, like my spouse has been spending too much time in the gym, so this indicates that he did not have the proper intention for marriage. So after raising a family, and living together for ten or twenty years, the wife finds herself a new boyfriend and wants a divorce because her husband has been spending too much time in the gym.

Evidence for this, please?
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« Reply #133 on: December 07, 2007, 12:39:04 AM »

We are supposed to beleive that 60,000 Catholic couples per year in th eUSA didn;t really know what they were doing when they got married? Why did they go through all of the bother to have a wedding party and send out all those invitations. Oh, I get it. It was just a charade?!?!

To be fair, the Roman Catholic teaching is that the couple must intend to have a sacramental marriage (with its adjacent intention of marital faithfulness), not simply a secular union.  An interesting historical tidbit regarding this is that President John F. Kennedy and Jackie didn't have a sacramental marriage according to Latin teaching, as was revealed by what President Kennedy was recorded as saying to his brother, Ted, upon his wedding.  President Kennedy was overheard to say, "You don't have to be faithful, you know."  Given that we have record of this statement and it was certainly borne out in the President's personal life, we can reasonably conclude that the first Catholic presidential couple was never sacramentally married due to President Kennedy's defective intention of not remaining faithful.  Shocked

God bless,

Adam  
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« Reply #134 on: December 07, 2007, 12:39:50 AM »

Hello,

Actually, this isn't as hypothetical as you may wish to think.  The majority of Latin priests in the West have been trained to downplay and even ignore the sacrificial nature of the Liturgy.  And in Western Europe, lay concelebration is the norm, thus revealing that these priests don't believe in the true nature of the Liturgy and their American priestly counterparts are often indifferent to such practices.  Additionally, the misguided ecumenism in the Latin Church runs the risk of causing already liberal bishops to equate Catholic priests and Protestant ministers as essentially the same, thus invalidating their consecration according to Latin teaching.

Every Priest I know (and I know a lot of Priests, well!) absolutely believes in the sacramental reality of the Eucharist.




However, let us go onto another issue.  One of the questions that have always intrigued me is the state of marriages in the medieval ages in light of the teaching on annulments.  If a marriage can be revealed to have never occurred due to the intention of one of the spouses to not choose to be married, wouldn't this cause all marriages that were arranged in the medieval and even pre-modern world to be invalid?

I don't see an arranged marriage in the cultural context of the past as the same as a shotgun wedding today (no matter what the ultra-feminists say).
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