Author Topic: Obstacle #1: What God has joined together...  (Read 19597 times)

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Offline lubeltri

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Re: Obstacle #1: What God has joined together...
« Reply #135 on: December 07, 2007, 12:43:19 AM »
To be fair, the Roman Catholic teaching is that the couple must intend to have a sacramental marriage (with its adjacent intention of marital faithfulness), not simply a secular union.  An interesting historical tidbit regarding this is that President John F. Kennedy and Jackie didn't have a sacramental marriage according to Latin teaching, as was revealed by what President Kennedy was recorded as saying to his brother, Ted, upon his wedding.  President Kennedy was overheard to say, "You don't have to be faithful, you know."  Given that we have record of this statement and it was certainly borne out in the President's personal life, we can reasonably conclude that the first Catholic presidential couple was never sacramentally married due to President Kennedy's defective intention of not remaining faithful.  :o

Wow, Adam, I didn't know this.

May God give us a real Catholic president. And no, that isn't Rudy!

Offline stanley123

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Re: Obstacle #1: What God has joined together...
« Reply #136 on: December 07, 2007, 12:51:28 AM »
Hello,

Like I said earlier, there are two elements. What an annulment is itself.

And the imprudent dispensing of them in the Catholic Church today, which is the element that disturbs you (it upsets me too).
However, Fr. Doherty quotes a Tribunal official as saying:
"There is no marriage which, given a little time for investigation, we cannot declare invalid."
If just about any marriage can be annulled, then what Catholic couple out there is actually married?

Offline lubeltri

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Re: Obstacle #1: What God has joined together...
« Reply #137 on: December 07, 2007, 12:55:14 AM »
Tribunals are not infallible. Catholic couples will have their consciences to deal with. Divorce and re-marriage are NOT God's plan.

Offline stanley123

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Re: Obstacle #1: What God has joined together...
« Reply #138 on: December 07, 2007, 12:55:41 AM »
 If a marriage can be revealed to have never occurred due to the intention of one of the spouses to not choose to be married, wouldn't this cause all marriages that were arranged in the medieval and even pre-modern world to be invalid?  

I think it is yes. Actually, it is really worse than that because Fr. Doherty quotes a Tribunal official as saying:
"There is no marriage which, given a little time for investigation, we cannot declare invalid."

Offline Paradosis

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Re: Obstacle #1: What God has joined together...
« Reply #139 on: December 07, 2007, 12:59:44 AM »
I don't see an arranged marriage in the cultural context of the past as the same as a shotgun wedding today (no matter what the ultra-feminists say).

Certainly, the arranged marriage was better than some think.  However, the fact remains that the essential element of free choice taught by Catholicism was lacking in these marriages and every one of them could be given an annulment by even the conservative Roman Rota of today.  This is powerful testimony that the Latin teaching on annulments wasn't a doctrine of the ancient Church, or the arranged marriage couldn't have been accepted because of the danger that this would cause to the validity of the marriage bond.  The medieval and counter-reformation Church just carried on this cultural practice, despite its intrinsic incompatibility with the Latin teaching on annulments.   

God bless,

Adam

Offline Athanasios

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Re: Obstacle #1: What God has joined together...
« Reply #140 on: December 07, 2007, 01:05:53 AM »
Hello,

However, Fr. Doherty quotes a Tribunal official as saying:
"There is no marriage which, given a little time for investigation, we cannot declare invalid."
If just about any marriage can be annulled, then what Catholic couple out there is actually married?

Who is Fr. Doherty?
Through the intercession of Our Lady of Mount Carmel, may Jesus Christ bless you abundantly.

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Offline stanley123

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Re: Obstacle #1: What God has joined together...
« Reply #141 on: December 07, 2007, 01:06:47 AM »
Evidence for this, please?
Yes. Please see the book Judging Invalidity, bu Father Lawrence G. Wrenn.  Fr. Lawrence G. Wrenn, a canonist with the Hartford, Connecticut, diocesan tribunal, is considered the leading expert today among diocesan tribunalists on how to apply the teachings of Vatican II to the annulment process.  His books are published by the Canon Law Society of America.  And the books, including this one, by Father Wrenn are used as textbooks in university canon law courses.
If you would go to:
http://www.marysadvocates.org/wrennreasons.html
Scroll down a bit and you will see the following:
Reasons for annulment listed in Judging Invalidity ©2002,  By Fr. Lawrence G. Wrenn
Working out a couple of hours a day in the gym.
Being described as arrogant and selfish with an "I don't need anyone else" attitude.
Saving one's salary in a personal account.
Seeming to be obsessed with one's body (personal appearance).
Ignoring one's parents on one occasion when they came for a visit.
Seeing the world as his apple.  (Psychiatric expert's term)
Never being satisfied with a gift given by one's spouse.
Feeling chronically disenfranchised in one's (spousal) relationship.
Not achieving the desired companionship and intimacy one wants in marriage.
Suffering abandonment issues over a father who died.  
Protecting herself by putting a hard shell around herself.
Suffering from low self-esteem, self-absorption, and a need for attention.
Lacking emphathy and fearing intimacy.
Comparing oneself to others and always finding them happier.  
About a month before the wedding he drove his mother to a family reunion, leaving her all alone to make preparations for the wedding.  
The psychiatric expert described the respondent as porcupinish.  He didn't want people near him; surprises he liked even less.  It was noted in the proceedings, however, that he was in love with another woman.  
The petitioner's mother always resented her.  The mother was unreasonably strict and hypercritical.  

These are the most flimsy and ridiculous reasons imaginable for declaring a marriage never happened in the first place. It is truly incredible as to how Catholics can just go along with this total turnabout and reversal of the teaching of the Church as it was before Vatican II on the indissolubility of marriage.
Just take a look at the statistics for the USA annulments:
9 annulments per year in 1930. (USA)
61,419 annulmenst per year in 1989. (USA)




Offline Athanasios

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Re: Obstacle #1: What God has joined together...
« Reply #142 on: December 07, 2007, 01:07:24 AM »
Hello,

Certainly, the arranged marriage was better than some think.  However, the fact remains that the essential element of free choice taught by Catholicism was lacking in these marriages and every one of them could be given an annulment by even the conservative Roman Rota of today.  This is powerful testimony that the Latin teaching on annulments wasn't a doctrine of the ancient Church, or the arranged marriage couldn't have been accepted because of the danger that this would cause to the validity of the marriage bond.  The medieval and counter-reformation Church just carried on this cultural practice, despite its intrinsic incompatibility with the Latin teaching on annulments.   

God bless,

Adam
You have to look at arranged marriages in the eyes and context of that culture and time, not ours.
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Offline lubeltri

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Re: Obstacle #1: What God has joined together...
« Reply #143 on: December 07, 2007, 01:11:48 AM »
Hello,
You have to look at arranged marriages in the eyes and context of that culture and time, not ours.

And remember, in canon law, all marriages are assumed to be valid unless declared otherwise.

Offline Athanasios

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Re: Obstacle #1: What God has joined together...
« Reply #144 on: December 07, 2007, 01:14:08 AM »
Hello,

And remember, in canon law, all marriages are assumed to be valid unless declared otherwise.

That same with every other Sacrament the Church administers.
Through the intercession of Our Lady of Mount Carmel, may Jesus Christ bless you abundantly.

Pray that we may be one, as Christ and His Father are one. (John 17:20ff)

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Offline stanley123

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Re: Obstacle #1: What God has joined together...
« Reply #145 on: December 07, 2007, 01:19:30 AM »
Hello,

Who is Fr. Doherty?
See page 101 of the book:
Divorce & remarriage : resolving a Catholic dilemma
by Dennis Doherty
Publisher: St. Meinrad, Ind. : Abbey Press, 1974.
ISBN: 0870290363 : 9780870290367
OCLC: 1130212

Offline Athanasios

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Re: Obstacle #1: What God has joined together...
« Reply #146 on: December 07, 2007, 01:23:07 AM »
Hello,

See page 101 of the book:
Divorce & remarriage : resolving a Catholic dilemma
by Dennis Doherty
Publisher: St. Meinrad, Ind. : Abbey Press, 1974.
ISBN: 0870290363 : 9780870290367
OCLC: 1130212

I don't have access to the book. I'm definitely getting a certain feel about him though.
Through the intercession of Our Lady of Mount Carmel, may Jesus Christ bless you abundantly.

Pray that we may be one, as Christ and His Father are one. (John 17:20ff)

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Offline lubeltri

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Re: Obstacle #1: What God has joined together...
« Reply #147 on: December 07, 2007, 01:23:30 AM »
Yes. Please see the book Judging Invalidity, bu Father Lawrence G. Wrenn.  Fr. Lawrence G. Wrenn, a canonist with the Hartford, Connecticut, diocesan tribunal, is considered the leading expert today among diocesan tribunalists on how to apply the teachings of Vatican II to the annulment process.  His books are published by the Canon Law Society of America.  And the books, including this one, by Father Wrenn are used as textbooks in university canon law courses.
If you would go to:
http://www.marysadvocates.org/wrennreasons.html
Scroll down a bit and you will see the following:
Reasons for annulment listed in Judging Invalidity ©2002,  By Fr. Lawrence G. Wrenn
Working out a couple of hours a day in the gym.
Being described as arrogant and selfish with an "I don't need anyone else" attitude.
Saving one's salary in a personal account.
Seeming to be obsessed with one's body (personal appearance).
Ignoring one's parents on one occasion when they came for a visit.
Seeing the world as his apple.  (Psychiatric expert's term)
Never being satisfied with a gift given by one's spouse.
Feeling chronically disenfranchised in one's (spousal) relationship.
Not achieving the desired companionship and intimacy one wants in marriage.
Suffering abandonment issues over a father who died.  
Protecting herself by putting a hard shell around herself.
Suffering from low self-esteem, self-absorption, and a need for attention.
Lacking emphathy and fearing intimacy.
Comparing oneself to others and always finding them happier.  
About a month before the wedding he drove his mother to a family reunion, leaving her all alone to make preparations for the wedding.  
The psychiatric expert described the respondent as porcupinish.  He didn't want people near him; surprises he liked even less.  It was noted in the proceedings, however, that he was in love with another woman.  
The petitioner's mother always resented her.  The mother was unreasonably strict and hypercritical.  

These are the most flimsy and ridiculous reasons imaginable for declaring a marriage never happened in the first place. It is truly incredible as to how Catholics can just go along with this total turnabout and reversal of the teaching of the Church as it was before Vatican II on the indissolubility of marriage.
Just take a look at the statistics for the USA annulments:
9 annulments per year in 1930. (USA)
61,419 annulmenst per year in 1989. (USA)

Indeed. It's human nature. Marriage gone bad, liberals in the dioceses (who dissent from Church teaching about divorce and remarriage) offer an escape hatch, and people take it, thinking the "Church" is behind them.

It's terrible what has been going on in this country. This abuse is up with simony and the sale of indulgences.

Annulment statistics for 2002

(the most recent year figures are available)

-- Annulment hearings, worldwide: 56,246

-- Annulments granted, worldwide: 46,092

Annulments by continent:

-Africa: 343

-Oceania: 676

-Asia: 1,562

-Europe: 8,855

-North America: 30,968

-South and Central America: 5,688

http://www.osv.com/OSV4MeNav/MyCatholicFaithOnlineResources/WhattheChurchTeaches/WhattheChurchTeachesTheDignityofMarriage/tabid/387/Default.aspx

Well, one somewhat positive thing---the number in the US has dropped by half since 1989.


Offline stanley123

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Re: Obstacle #1: What God has joined together...
« Reply #148 on: December 07, 2007, 01:26:38 AM »
Hello,

I don't have access to the book. I'm definitely getting a certain feel about him though.
Take a look at this article published in the Catholic journal, Homiletic and Pastoral Review:
http://www.marysadvocates.org/HomileticJan05.html
This concerns the books by Father Wrenn which are used in university courses on canon law.


Offline Athanasios

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Re: Obstacle #1: What God has joined together...
« Reply #149 on: December 07, 2007, 01:27:19 AM »
Hello,

Take a look at this article published in the Catholic journal, Homiletic and Pastoral Review:
http://www.marysadvocates.org/HomileticJan05.html
This concerns the books by Father Wrenn which are used in university courses on canon law.

I'll give it a read and get back to you.
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Pray that we may be one, as Christ and His Father are one. (John 17:20ff)

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Offline stanley123

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Re: Obstacle #1: What God has joined together...
« Reply #150 on: December 07, 2007, 01:37:02 AM »
Well, one somewhat positive thing---the number in the US has dropped by half since 1989.
Well, did you take a look at what has been happening to the number of Catholic marriages since 1989.
Catholic couples aren't getting married in the numbers like they used to. They are choosing to NOT marry
and live together without the benefit of marriage. Well, why should anyone spend all that time and energy
and money, on a wedding celebration,  when the marriage has a good chance of being officially declared
completely null and void in the end anyway? You go through the entire wedding ceremony in Church,
you do your best to educate your children and raise a family and then after fifteen years, your wife
finds herself another boyfriend and has the Church declare that there never was any marriage
in the first place?!?! Why not be honest about it and just say the marriage didn't work out and
you want a divorce. Why go through all this phony pretense about there never having been any
marriage?

Offline Carole

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Re: Obstacle #1: What God has joined together...
« Reply #151 on: December 07, 2007, 10:10:23 AM »
However, Fr. Doherty quotes a Tribunal official as saying:
"There is no marriage which, given a little time for investigation, we cannot declare invalid."
If just about any marriage can be annulled, then what Catholic couple out there is actually married?


That is one person's opinion.  That doesn't make it fact.

Though the priest that heard my petition for a Declaration of Nullity did have some very clear ideas on the reason for the increased numbers of approved petitions.  He feels it isn't so much a matter of too many Declarations being granted as too few people with proper catechesis and marriage preparation.  There are simply too many people (Catholic and otherwise) who are influenced wrongly by our rather hedonistic society and are not properly educated about what marriage really is.

Maybe the fault of marriages that end and are declared to be sacramentally null is at least partially the fault of the people getting married and the priests who are marrying them even without proper preparation and not solely that of the tribunals themselves who are, one would hope, simply looking at circumstances that were beyond their control.
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Offline lubeltri

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Re: Obstacle #1: What God has joined together...
« Reply #152 on: December 07, 2007, 08:43:39 PM »
Point well taken, Carole.

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Re: Obstacle #1: What God has joined together...
« Reply #153 on: December 09, 2007, 11:23:44 PM »
This annulment business is something that is disturbing. Not only is it disturbing, but it really strains credibility. I can see where a marriage would not be valid if one of the partners was already married and this was hidden from the other person. So far this is OK. but it probably doesn't happen too often this way, as the statistics before Vatican II, show that there were very few marriage annulments granted. For example, in the USA, in 1930, there were 9 annulments granted for that year. This contrasts rather sharply, with the number being granted today, something like 50,000 or 60,000 per year, and they are granted on very flimsy grounds, like my spouse has been spending too much time in the gym, so this indicates that he did not have the proper intention for marriage. So after raising a family, and living together for ten or twenty years, the wife finds herself a new boyfriend and wants a divorce because her husband has been spending too much time in the gym. And then the Church declares that there never was any marriage in the first place because of this or some other ridiculous reason that never would have been brought up in the first place, except that the wife now wants a divorce. We are supposed to beleive that 60,000 Catholic couples per year in th eUSA didn;t really know what they were doing when they got married? Why did they go through all of the bother to have a wedding party and send out all those invitations. Oh, I get it. It was just a charade?!?!

When I was growing up, the woman next store was having an affair with a married man, who wouldn't leave his wife because he was "Catholic."  So that went on as long as I remember (about 15 years), and I know it was going on before I came aware of what was going on.


Worse yet, if I remember correctly, he went to daily mass.

Not that I'm advocating that he leave his wife.  According to the canons, he couldn't marry the adultress (our Archdiocese issued a directive reenforcing that).  Just it makes a mockery of what a "Catholic marriage" he had.
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Re: Obstacle #1: What God has joined together...
« Reply #154 on: December 09, 2007, 11:29:38 PM »
Yes, the divorcee is asked to remain single.  It is a concession to allow him/her to marry again.  Yes, the widow/er is asked to remain single.  It is a concession to allow him/her to marry again.

The ideal for any Christian is either no marriage or one marriage.  Once someone enters into one marriage, then it is best for them not to enter into another, regardless of how the first one is disposed.

I know this is a touchy subject for you.  But you should understand that the "bum" of your example is at least held to the same standard as you are - and, in reality, held to a higher one, since s/he must repent before a second marriage, unlike you, who would not be required to do so if you decided to get married again.

No one is saying you cannot get married again - any widow or widower can get married again.  The only point where marriage is forbidden is if one has already been married 3 times; then the 4th+ are forbidden.

Emperor Leo VI did so.  When the EP refused to bless the fourth marriage, he sought the pope of Rome, who blessed it.  Henry VIII, eat your heart out.
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Offline stanley123

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Re: Obstacle #1: What God has joined together...
« Reply #155 on: December 10, 2007, 01:36:30 AM »
Emperor Leo VI did so.  When the EP refused to bless the fourth marriage, he sought the pope of Rome, who blessed it.  Henry VIII, eat your heart out.
Wait. The situation of Henry VIII is not comparable to the situation of Leo VI, because the three previous wives of Leo VI were all dead. I thought that in the Roman Catholic Church, if your wife is dead, you are free to remarry. This was not the case for Henry VIII.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2007, 01:43:00 AM by stanley123 »

Offline lubeltri

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Re: Obstacle #1: What God has joined together...
« Reply #156 on: December 10, 2007, 09:39:45 AM »
Interesting fact. I would have thought Leo would have canned the EP when he refused.

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Re: Obstacle #1: What God has joined together...
« Reply #157 on: December 10, 2007, 11:01:02 AM »
Emperor Leo VI did so.  When the EP refused to bless the fourth marriage, he sought the pope of Rome, who blessed it.  Henry VIII, eat your heart out.

And it's still forbidden!  No 3rd divorce, no 4th marriage.
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Re: Obstacle #1: What God has joined together...
« Reply #158 on: December 13, 2007, 05:59:05 PM »
Take a look at this article published in the Catholic journal, Homiletic and Pastoral Review:
http://www.marysadvocates.org/HomileticJan05.html
This concerns the books by Father Wrenn which are used in university courses on canon law.

I just finished reading through this article.  There were times when I agreed with it, such as the Error of Quality section.  The wife has a great marriage yet thinks it's somehow okay to divorce a husband who can't have children?  Why not adopt, and hope that one day a miracle might happen?  I don't think the Tribunal should have granted an annulment for such a reason.  It ripped apart a loving couple by their souls, rather than counseling them to adopt.  In Imposed Error, Daniel should have been counseled to forgive his wife, not divorce her for something that happened before they even got married.  Was he even dating Joanne when she slept with his friend Eugene?  That part isn't clear.

However, there were also times when I found the article very judgmental, lacking compassion.  The Lack of Due Discretion example involved adultery and emotional abuse.  No woman should be expected to stand for that.  The Condition example showed a guy who was trying to force his wife to do things a certain way.  It's okay to want your wife to stay home with the children, but you can't expect or force it.  The husband's role is servant leader, not dictator.  It's no wonder he was deemed "controlling" and "domineering."  I've been in an emotionally abusive relationship; it's at least as bad as physical abuse, because it's more subtle and rips you apart psychologically, yet many people will tell you you're not really being abused because you have no black eyes or broken arms.  I've always been glad that I didn't have to stay in that relationship.

In the Intention Against Sacramentality example, you have a woman who does not even believe in Catholicism, being forced to marry in the church because her parents consider her to be "living in sin" even though she's legally married--and nearly everyone else in society would consider her to be legitimately married.  Forcing a nonbeliever to be married in the church like that seems like sacrilege, not what the marriage sacrament is supposed to be about at all.  A similar example is in Intention Against Perpetuity.  I've seen the results of people being legally married but considered "living in sin" by the Catholic church.  The wife was Catholic, the husband Lutheran.  Their child was considered illegitimate, even though legally he was conceived and born inside marriage.  All it did was push them away.  More than 35 years later, the wife and child are now Pagan.  I don't know what the husband is.

I also disagree with the comments about second marriages rarely being better than first.  I've seen a few examples just in my own circle of second marriages being far better than the first.  The divorces were not over trivial matters, and the second marriages were entered into with more care.

I don't think annulments should be granted easily; they must be examined based on the words of Christ and the "Pauline privilege."  But we can't forget compassion and the realities of how relationships can break down.  Some things can be fixed; some can't.
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Re: Obstacle #1: What God has joined together...
« Reply #159 on: December 13, 2007, 09:02:40 PM »
Well, one somewhat positive thing---the number in the US has dropped by half since 1989.

But I wonder if thats due to an overall tightening of the rules and a more substantial process or if it can just be chalked up to people not even bothering with the annulment.

This is entirely anecdotal but I know two couples who have divorced recently and there are no plans whatsoever to seek an annulment.  They just don't care.

Stephen
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Re: Obstacle #1: What God has joined together...
« Reply #160 on: December 13, 2007, 10:57:08 PM »
Wow, Adam, I didn't know this.

May God give us a real Catholic president. And no, that isn't Rudy!

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Offline stanley123

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Re: Obstacle #1: What God has joined together...
« Reply #161 on: December 13, 2007, 11:11:02 PM »
With Brownbeck gone, is there another one in the race?
Alan Keyes ?

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Re: Obstacle #1: What God has joined together...
« Reply #162 on: December 14, 2007, 01:53:30 AM »
But I wonder if thats due to an overall tightening of the rules and a more substantial process or if it can just be chalked up to people not even bothering with the annulment.

This is entirely anecdotal but I know two couples who have divorced recently and there are no plans whatsoever to seek an annulment.  They just don't care.

Stephen

I'm wondering if it is because more people aren't choosing to get married, or if they are getting married, maybe outside the church?  It could be what you said as well.  I asked a friend of the family who is engaged when they are getting married (they are Catholic), he said in august 2009.  I said why wait, you love each other right?  He said, sure, but we want to get some debt paid down first.  I'd say that would be a reason maybe if you were 18, but not 27.  Why wait so long to be married?  To be able to have that loved bonded by the sacrament of Marriage.....  if they got married sooner, and they've been dating for several years, they'd be able to spend more of their earthly time together in holy sacramental marriage. 
I think another point we have seen in this post is the whole issue of what marriage is.
I don't know how well CCD/Sunday school teaches the sacrament of marriage.  I went to a Catholic High School where we had an entire year of religion class about marriage, love and relationships between friends family and our spouse.  My point being that maybe we need to stress more education about marriage and so forth to our young people.
Marriage isn't merely being able to file joint income taxes and getting better financing.  It isn't about having two people come together so the money pot can be bigger to purchase more expensive material items. 

Offline stanley123

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Re: Obstacle #1: What God has joined together...
« Reply #163 on: December 14, 2007, 02:24:48 AM »
I'm wondering if it is because more people aren't choosing to get married, or if they are getting married, maybe outside the church?  It could be what you said as well.  I asked a friend of the family who is engaged when they are getting married (they are Catholic), he said in august 2009.  I said why wait, you love each other right?  He said, sure, but we want to get some debt paid down first.  I'd say that would be a reason maybe if you were 18, but not 27.  Why wait so long to be married?  To be able to have that loved bonded by the sacrament of Marriage.....  if they got married sooner, and they've been dating for several years, they'd be able to spend more of their earthly time together in holy sacramental marriage. 
I think another point we have seen in this post is the whole issue of what marriage is.
I don't know how well CCD/Sunday school teaches the sacrament of marriage.  I went to a Catholic High School where we had an entire year of religion class about marriage, love and relationships between friends family and our spouse.  My point being that maybe we need to stress more education about marriage and so forth to our young people.
Marriage isn't merely being able to file joint income taxes and getting better financing.  It isn't about having two people come together so the money pot can be bigger to purchase more expensive material items. 

This whole business of easy marriage annulments doesn't make any sense to me at all. And further, it looks to me like the official sanctioning of easy to get annulments is having the unintended consequence of more and more Catholic couples either holding off on their marriages or not getting married at all? Why go through the bother and expense of getting married in the first place, when in the end, down the line fifteen or twenty years from now, the Church will officially declare that there never was any marriage in the first place? As Father Doherty quotes a tribunal official as saying: "There is no marriage which, given a little time for investigation, we cannot declare invalid."