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Author Topic: What leads to Orthodoxy?  (Read 9299 times) Average Rating: 0
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lubeltri
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« on: November 28, 2007, 11:53:43 AM »

As for your challenge to Mickey, I think that if you search this site and do all the same research and questioning that he and I and many others have done with an open mind and open heart, you might just find that Orthodoxy is, as you say, God's church on earth. 

Oops, guess I was too close-minded and hard-hearted! Oh well.
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« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2007, 12:01:33 PM »

Oops, guess I was too close-minded and hard-hearted! Oh well.

Naw! For some people, the journey takes a little longer.  Grin
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« Reply #2 on: November 28, 2007, 12:03:58 PM »

we cannot tolerate free and open discussion between Catholics and non-Catholics.  No questions allowed, as they may threaten us theologically. 

Hmm, is this the Moscow Patriarchate and the Greek government speaking?  Wink


Wah! Mommy! They are---proselytizing!  Wink
« Last Edit: November 28, 2007, 12:08:15 PM by lubeltri » Logged
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« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2007, 01:38:33 PM »

^ not as cute as you think you are, lub
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« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2007, 01:43:57 PM »

^ not as cute as you think you are, lub

Gotta agree... Seems a little uncalled for.
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« Reply #5 on: November 28, 2007, 03:28:45 PM »

^ not as cute as you think you are, lub

Beneath my adorable cuteness is a point---there was an awful lot of proselytism on that board. I'm cool with that (I guess CAF is not), but there are many EO out there (especially in the high places I mentioned) who also don't seem to trust that their apologetics can stand up on their merits. I thought the smug declarations that the Catholics there were "afraid" of losing argument after argument were somewhat ironic.
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« Reply #6 on: November 28, 2007, 03:46:43 PM »

Beneath my adorable cuteness is a point---there was an awful lot of proselytism on that board. I'm cool with that (I guess CAF is not), but there are many EO out there (especially in the high places I mentioned) who also don't seem to trust that their apologetics can stand up on their merits. I thought the smug declarations that the Catholics there were "afraid" of losing argument after argument were somewhat ironic.

Baloney.
The real world proselytizing efforts to which those "highly placed" EO react are not apologetically based internet fora.
As for smugness - that's really the pot calling the kettle...
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« Reply #7 on: November 28, 2007, 04:47:19 PM »

What is the definition being used for Orthodoxy ?
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« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2007, 03:37:58 PM »

Oops, guess I was too close-minded and hard-hearted! Oh well.

I'm curious--you say the point you are making has to do with (perceived) prosyletism on CAF, which is highly arguable.  But the subject of this thread ends with a question mark.  So what is it you are really trying to find out here?  Are you on a genuine, open-minded quest for information about what leads people home to Holy Orthodoxy, or are you just trying to bash Orthodoxy?

As for your "cuteness"---no comment.  Grin

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« Last Edit: November 29, 2007, 03:49:12 PM by Ziggernaut » Logged

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« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2007, 03:52:05 PM »

Hi Jeff,

I'd answer you, but I didn't start this thread! One of the moderators did. The first two posts were originally in another thread (I think the monstrously long CAF one).

No, I wasn't trying to bash Orthodoxy. I have a rule---I don't bash anything I love and respect.

The first comment was just a bit of good-natured sarcasm in response to somebody's implication that if Ebor or Keble (I don't remember which) had an open mind and heart, he would see that EO is the One True FaithTM.

The second comment (with the picture of the crying baby) was explained in my last post.
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« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2007, 03:58:30 PM »

Hi Jeff,

I'd answer you, but I didn't start this thread! One of the moderators did. The original post was originally in another thread (I think the monstrously long CAF one).

No, I wasn't trying to bash Orthodoxy. I have a rule---I don't bash anything I love and respect.

Hi Lubeltri,

I guess I missed that somehow.  I wonder why they did that?  And the CAF thread continues to grow, anyway.  Strange.

It gladdens my heart to hear of your love and respect for Orthodoxy!  Why don't you come join us?  (Just kidding  Grin Grin!)

Or am I?  Grin
« Last Edit: November 29, 2007, 03:59:25 PM by Ziggernaut » Logged

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« Reply #11 on: November 29, 2007, 04:37:16 PM »

This was a post in response to Ziggernaut, but I didn't want to pull this thread off on a tangent. I looked on this board for a thread about why the Catholics here are Catholic, but I failed, so I created a new one. \

You can see my post here: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13617.msg189617.html#msg189617

-------

(MTA) Thanks, Jakub. I'm from NY state---born into it! And as I have always said, I don't change religions or sports teams.  Wink
« Last Edit: November 29, 2007, 05:16:24 PM by lubeltri » Logged
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« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2007, 05:08:47 PM »

Lubeltri,

You express yourself very well...for a Yankee fan   Wink

james
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« Reply #13 on: November 30, 2007, 09:22:30 PM »

Beneath my adorable cuteness is a point---there was an awful lot of proselytism on that board. I'm cool with that (I guess CAF is not), but there are many EO out there (especially in the high places I mentioned) who also don't seem to trust that their apologetics can stand up on their merits. I thought the smug declarations that the Catholics there were "afraid" of losing argument after argument were somewhat ironic.
*
The conversions to Orthodoxy that took place on CAF were all serendipity.  They were by-products of the discussions, God simply using us to speak to other human souls.  The Orthodox were always conscious that they were guests in a Catholic environment.  We were not out to proselytize.   Now, imagine the effect we may have had if we had been intent upon conversion!! 
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« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2007, 11:20:05 PM »

Before i discovered Orthodoxy I wondered what religion was like the early Christians. I considered Shia Islam, Roman Catholicism, and Orthodoxy. I did research on all three of them. I chose Orthodoxy. The reason why i chose Orthodoxy was because Islam and Catholicism had fatal flaws in them and Orthodoxy had no flaws at all. So now I'm an Orthodox Catecumen on the way to chrismation.
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« Reply #15 on: December 03, 2007, 06:13:08 AM »

Art's story sounds interesting, I'd like to see more about it.


In other news,
I have to agree to some extent with lubetri on whiny complaints
against proselytizing.  I remember a decade ago when Moscow Patriarchate
didn't want any Protestants in Russia who weren't there 70 years ago!

I think though, it was not for lack of confidence in O theology. (Orthodoxy
kicks spiritual booty when Protestant theology is in the ring).  It had
more to do with the techniques that P missionaries use to convert.

Still, the Moscow Patriarchate's action made it appear that the
Orthodox had something to hide.  And proselytizing should be no crime.
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« Reply #16 on: December 03, 2007, 05:48:07 PM »

Beneath my adorable cuteness is a point---there was an awful lot of proselytism on that board. I'm cool with that (I guess CAF is not), but there are many EO out there (especially in the high places I mentioned) who also don't seem to trust that their apologetics can stand up on their merits. I thought the smug declarations that the Catholics there were "afraid" of losing argument after argument were somewhat ironic.

I can only speak for myself but I always tried to keep any answers focused on the question at hand on CAF.  Now if my answers to some questions brought doubt on the part of say an Eastern Catholic, am I to be held responsible for this?

I think in retrospect all the Orthodox or at least most knew that they were guests on that forum and had to be respectful of the rules and the moderators. But, when I am challenged on my faith or beliefs one needs to be apologetical in his answers.  And what I mean by this is that if someone misleads another in what we believe to be true then I have an obligation to straighten that person out in as far as the erroneous statement went and no farther.  Hopefully, my attempts at this was fair and without polemics.  At least I tried in this regard.

What hurt most of all was not that I was banned, but that it happened the way it did.  And to add to this the misleading information under my forum name being left blank giving the indication that it was my choice not to be there was really low class to say the least.

 
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« Reply #17 on: December 03, 2007, 06:02:52 PM »

Beneath my adorable cuteness is a point---there was an awful lot of proselytism on that board.
*
It was just dreadful, the innumerable times the Orthodox were invited or ordered to "come home" to Rome!!   

I suppose it had something of the opposite effect and people would ask themselves, "Well, where IS home, really?" and some found that the home of Christianity was in the East and not in Italy.

Today (3 December) is the commemoration of St. Birinus of Wessex
See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/celt-saints

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« Reply #18 on: December 03, 2007, 06:14:04 PM »

---there was an awful lot of proselytism on that board. I'm cool with that
*
The Orthodox see the Catholic outreach and ecumenical contacts as a bit of windowdressing and they believe that the real strategy takes place back home in the rooms of the Vatican where the PR experts are busy drinking coffee and holding think tanks on how to bring the Orthodox into submission to the Supreme Pontiff.

Many will be familiar with the Russian Archbishop of London Metropolitan Anthony Bloom and his spiritual writings. This is what he has this to say in a 1997 report to the Russian Synod:

"It is time we realised that Rome is only interested in extinguishing Orthodoxy. Theological encounters and 'accords' on the basis of texts lead us up a blind alley, for behind them there looms a firm resolve of the Vatican to swallow up the Orthodox Church."

His words are all the more remarkable because he was a very active participant in the ecumenical dialogue between the Orthodox and Catholics for many decades.

The reference for this is:
SOUROZH (the diocesan magazine of the Russian Diocese in Great Britain) 69 (August 1997), 17-22.
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« Reply #19 on: December 03, 2007, 11:09:15 PM »

*
The Orthodox see the Catholic outreach and ecumenical contacts as a bit of windowdressing and they believe that the real strategy takes place back home in the rooms of the Vatican where the PR experts are busy drinking coffee and holding think tanks on how to bring the Orthodox into submission to the Supreme Pontiff.

Many will be familiar with the Russian Archbishop of London Metropolitan Anthony Bloom and his spiritual writings. This is what he has this to say in a 1997 report to the Russian Synod:

"It is time we realised that Rome is only interested in extinguishing Orthodoxy. Theological encounters and 'accords' on the basis of texts lead us up a blind alley, for behind them there looms a firm resolve of the Vatican to swallow up the Orthodox Church."

His words are all the more remarkable because he was a very active participant in the ecumenical dialogue between the Orthodox and Catholics for many decades.

The reference for this is:
SOUROZH (the diocesan magazine of the Russian Diocese in Great Britain) 69 (August 1997), 17-22.

Father bless!

Thank you for that spot-on quotation from someone who should know the nature of the beast (so to speak).

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« Reply #20 on: December 05, 2007, 07:34:41 AM »

I'm kind of new on this forum but it seems to me that some people from every tradition will proselytise ... 
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« Reply #21 on: December 09, 2007, 08:34:33 PM »

I'm kind of new on this forum but it seems to me that some people from every tradition will proselytise ... 

Obviously, you haven't met any Hard-Shell Baptists. angel
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« Reply #22 on: December 09, 2007, 10:20:21 PM »

I'm kind of new on this forum but it seems to me that some people from every tradition will proselytise ... 

Yeah, so what's your point? Grin
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« Reply #23 on: December 15, 2007, 12:29:25 PM »

Obviously, you haven't met any Hard-Shell Baptists. angel
I have met such persons, it is a pleasure not to meet them too often. Fortunately being in Australia means that I don't get too many religious callers at my door, just Jehovah's witnesses and an occasional Mormon.

Living is an religiously apathetic society has its advantages sometimes  Grin
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« Reply #24 on: December 16, 2007, 11:53:37 PM »

Living is an religiously apathetic society has its advantages sometimes  Grin

Perhaps.  Probably what we need is living in a religiously hostile society where to be a Christian means persecution and even death.  How much more we would appreciate it and scratch and claw to keep it. 
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« Reply #25 on: December 17, 2007, 11:37:37 AM »

Accordians.
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« Reply #26 on: December 17, 2007, 11:56:30 AM »

*
The Orthodox see the Catholic outreach and ecumenical contacts as a bit of windowdressing and they believe that the real strategy takes place back home in the rooms of the Vatican where the PR experts are busy drinking coffee and holding think tanks on how to bring the Orthodox into submission to the Supreme Pontiff.

Father Bless,

I believe many Orthodox highly overestimate the unity of the Roman Catholic Church. Pope Benedict can hardly get a muto proprio (sp?) out of his own office let alone craft such a cabal as this....

I don't know Father.
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« Reply #27 on: December 28, 2007, 03:19:28 PM »

Perhaps.  Probably what we need is living in a religiously hostile society where to be a Christian means persecution and even death.  How much more we would appreciate it and scratch and claw to keep it. 
I am thankful to God that we are not being persecuted. Persecution & martyrdom are not goals to aim for.
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« Reply #28 on: December 29, 2007, 02:16:47 AM »

I am thankful to God that we are not being persecuted. Persecution & martyrdom are not goals to aim for.
Huh
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« Reply #29 on: December 29, 2007, 05:57:50 AM »

Huh
Amusing icon, what is your intended question?
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« Reply #30 on: December 29, 2007, 10:41:34 AM »

*
It was just dreadful, the innumerable times the Orthodox were invited or ordered to "come home" to Rome!!   

I suppose it had something of the opposite effect and people would ask themselves, "Well, where IS home, really?" and some found that the home of Christianity was in the East and not in Italy.

Today (3 December) is the commemoration of St. Birinus of Wessex
See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/celt-saints



I apologize for coming in here, but the "come home" has frequently been directed to Anglicans and others from both RC and EO.  And the question of "where IS home?" for some (me for instance) is:  Neither Rome nor Constantinople nor Moscow nor Athens...."

Ebor 
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« Reply #31 on: May 05, 2008, 09:17:06 PM »

Howdy!

I'll be glad to tell you what lead me to Orthodoxy...

Not being afraid to ask myself hard questions.
Not being afraid to follow where ever the answers took me.
and
Patience! It may take quite some time to traverse the path from hither to yon!
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« Reply #32 on: May 05, 2008, 10:54:54 PM »

the home of Christianity was in the East and not in Italy.

Amazing that such a given can so easily go completely unnoticed. 

Soon after discovering Orthodoxy, I began to ponder:
"If I know that Christianity's geographical origins are in the EAST, then why do I view it as an essentially western religion? 
When I think about ancient Christian art, why does my mind fill with images from the Renaissance?
When I think about ancient Christian music, why do I hear nothing but Gregorian chant?
When I think about ancient Christian churches, why do I picture nothing but gothic steeples?
If I know the Apostles went to places besides western Europe, then where are all the other ancient Christian communities?"

Looking back, I still find it baffling how long these thoughts remained in the very back of my mind
without me even consciously being aware of them.  I suppose if you don't have answers to such major questions then you'd
rather pretend those questions don't really exist.

May the Lord continue to bless His True Orthodox Church and lead all the weary and heavy laden into the sweet peace and rest of His Body.
May the people be able to joyfully proclaim: "We have found the True Faith!"
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« Reply #33 on: May 05, 2008, 10:59:22 PM »

Not being afraid to ask myself hard questions.
Not being afraid to follow where ever the answers took me.
and Patience!

Amen
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« Reply #34 on: May 05, 2008, 11:02:53 PM »

I apologize for coming in here, but the "come home" has frequently been directed to Anglicans and others from both RC and EO.  And the question of "where IS home?" for some (me for instance) is:  Neither Rome nor Constantinople nor Moscow nor Athens...."
Ebor 

For me, the answer to this question is not geographical.  The Divine Liturgy proclaims: "We have found the True Faith"... not the "true city."
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« Reply #35 on: May 08, 2008, 10:46:39 PM »

What leads to Orthodoxy?

Revised Divine Liturgies, complete with Inclusive language nonsense, refusal of some Eastern Catholic bishops to ordain married men as priests, etc.  These come to mind off the top of my head.

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« Reply #36 on: May 08, 2008, 10:54:32 PM »

For me, the answer to this question is not geographical.  The Divine Liturgy proclaims: "We have found the True Faith"... not the "true city."


I'm not being "geographical" either, but am using the city names as a kind of metonymy to refer to RC/EO/ROC/GOC etc.

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« Reply #37 on: May 08, 2008, 11:25:41 PM »

I apologize for coming in here, but the "come home" has frequently been directed to Anglicans and others from both RC and EO.  And the question of "where IS home?" for some (me for instance) is:  Neither Rome nor Constantinople nor Moscow nor Athens...."

Ebor 
The open and oft-repeated invitation to come home to Eastern Orthodoxy seems appropriate, being on an Eastern Orthodox forum and all. Undecided  And if you're truly not interested in becomming Eastern Orthodox, why then have you been a member of this forum for so long?  I mean no disrespect to you, nor do I wish for you to leave.  But if you're truly not interested in becomming Eastern Orthodox, I can't see what would hold your interest in this forum for as long as it has.  If you've answered this before then I apologize for asking again.  If so, could you please point me to the appropriate thread?  Thanks in advance.

Gabriel
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« Reply #38 on: May 15, 2008, 05:20:58 PM »

The open and oft-repeated invitation to come home to Eastern Orthodoxy seems appropriate, being on an Eastern Orthodox forum and all. Undecided  And if you're truly not interested in becomming Eastern Orthodox, why then have you been a member of this forum for so long?  I mean no disrespect to you, nor do I wish for you to leave.  But if you're truly not interested in becomming Eastern Orthodox, I can't see what would hold your interest in this forum for as long as it has.  If you've answered this before then I apologize for asking again.  If so, could you please point me to the appropriate thread?  Thanks in advance.

Gabriel


Thank you, Gabriel, for managing to ask this question in such a gentle and loving way (much more so than I could have).
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« Reply #39 on: May 15, 2008, 05:57:47 PM »

Quote
But if you're truly not interested in becomming Eastern Orthodox, I can't see what would hold your interest in this forum for as long as it has.

I bet the answer is "substantive discussion". Smiley
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« Reply #40 on: May 15, 2008, 06:57:44 PM »

I bet the answer is "substantive discussion". Smiley
Is that what brought you back? Cheesy
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« Reply #41 on: May 16, 2008, 09:50:55 AM »

*
The conversions to Orthodoxy that took place on CAF were all serendipity.  They were by-products of the discussions, God simply using us to speak to other human souls.  The Orthodox were always conscious that they were guests in a Catholic environment.  We were not out to proselytize.   Now, imagine the effect we may have had if we had been intent upon conversion!! 

Fr. Ambrose, there were problems over there though. I remember that there were whole threads over at CAF celebrating people's conversions to Eastern Orthodoxy. On Catholic terms, this means there were threads where people were celebrating the departure of our dear brothers from Christ's Church. I am not sure how that can be seen as acceptable or how one can miss the fact that proselytizing was going on. It would be akin to Catholics using this forum to help convert EOs to the Catholic Church, and then opening up threads to celebrate this.
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« Reply #42 on: May 16, 2008, 06:52:13 PM »

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Is that what brought you back?

One can hope! Smiley
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« Reply #43 on: May 16, 2008, 08:56:34 PM »

The open and oft-repeated invitation to come home to Eastern Orthodoxy seems appropriate, being on an Eastern Orthodox forum and all. Undecided 

And I will respond as I have on that concept before.  "Home" is where one lives or has lived. "Home" is the Place where you know the light of an evening or a dawn and the sounds you knew before you were aware and the scent of the wind and the water.  It may be a bit florid or poetic, but I'm trying to get the point across.  EO and RC are not "home" to me.  I have never 'lived' in either place nor have any of my family for as far back as I know.

I cannot "Come home" to EO or RC.  Some here understand. It would be an exile from where I became Christian and from the worship that formed my faith.

Quote
And if you're truly not interested in becomming Eastern Orthodox, why then have you been a member of this forum for so long?  I mean no disrespect to you, nor do I wish for you to leave.  But if you're truly not interested in becomming Eastern Orthodox, I can't see what would hold your interest in this forum for as long as it has.  If you've answered this before then I apologize for asking again.  If so, could you please point me to the appropriate thread?  Thanks in advance.

As to this there are a number of reasons.

First, at times there have been posts about my Church or people who are attached to the Anglican Communion that have been, shall we say, inaccurate or incomplete or misinterpreted. Some of them have been rather ...errmmm excitable and accusatory.   I have been here to provide correct information, or further details or explain the errors or mistakes in the posts and so forth.  Would you not like to see true information about your Church on an Anglican forum perhaps? 

Secondly, having been here for a number of years I have formed ties and 'net friendships with some of the people here.  Some I have met in person, such as at the OC.net Summerfest some years ago.  Others I have not met, but have enjoyed communicating via e-mail and PM. 

Thirdly,  there are other subjects that are of common interest such as Professor Tolkien's works, Literature, History, and others.  I hope that in my posts I have been able to provide good information and true history.  Yes, Asterikos, (and Hello btw, it's good to see your posts again  Smiley ) some of the discussion is substantive. Some of it is just for fun or silly ("Random Posts" is my fault after all  Grin ).  But there have been some serious discussions in which knowledge has been increased. 

This is not a closed forum, like others on the 'net.  The moderators and administrators have permitted me to post here and I thank them.  I am a guest in their home, as it were.

Is that a sufficient explanation? 

With respect

Ebor
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« Reply #44 on: May 17, 2008, 12:23:29 AM »

Would you not like to see true information about your Church on an Anglican forum perhaps?
Eh, people pass around lies and half-thruths all the time.  Frustrating?  Sure, but I'm not the Orthodox police so let 'em say what they want. They won't answer to me.

Is that a sufficient explanation?
Thanks for the reply.  It's pretty much point for point what I expected.

In Christ,

Gabriel
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