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Author Topic: women should not speak in church  (Read 19177 times) Average Rating: 0
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Lightspeed1000
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« on: November 27, 2007, 05:36:40 AM »

Dear all,

I was just wondering if in accordance with this passage from 1 Corinthians 14 :33-55 which reads-



“As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.”

Could this also relate to Christian Forums which are a community of 'Christians'or the 'Church' or 'saints',where we might have women teaching and instructing others on these Forums?

Thanks
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« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2007, 05:58:39 AM »

1) A Forum is not the Church.
2) Women do speak in the Church, and have done so in the past.
3) Women have instructed in the Church from the beginning. Part of the role of the Deaconess was to catechize female converts, and most Sunday Schools in my Archdiocese are taught by female catechism teachers. A Sunday School is a Church, a forum is not.
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Lightspeed1000
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« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2007, 06:09:47 AM »

So what does this passage mean-


“As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.”

Is not the Body of Christ which are the Christians the 'Church'?

Are we not all members of the church?

Whats the diference if a women teaches at sunday school or on a forum.

Doesnt St Paul say the women should be silent?and that it is a disgrace for them to speak and to 'teach' as i have read on some commenteries on this subject?
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« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2007, 06:32:52 AM »

“As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.”
Why does St Paul in the same Epistle permit women to prophesy in Church (1 Corinthians 11:5)?
Here is my little theory: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,12108.msg164161.html#msg164161


Is not the Body of Christ which are the Christians the 'Church'?
Yes.

Are we not all members of the church?
No.
 We have Atheists, Jews, and Agnostics as forum members. Our forum members also include many who are not in communion with one another. How can we on this forum therefore be "the Church" which you yourself defined as:"the Body of Christ which are the Christians"?

Whats the diference if a women teaches at sunday school or on a forum.
A Sunday School is the Church because it is composed of those fully received into the Church. A forum is not.

Doesnt St Paul say the women should be silent?and that it is a disgrace for them to speak and to 'teach' as i have read on some commenteries on this subject?
See above.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2007, 06:45:47 AM by ozgeorge » Logged

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« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2007, 06:37:49 AM »

So what does this passage mean-


“As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.”

Is not the Body of Christ which are the Christians the 'Church'?

Are we not all members of the church?

Whats the diference if a women teaches at sunday school or on a forum.

Doesnt St Paul say the women should be silent?and that it is a disgrace for them to speak and to 'teach' as i have read on some commenteries on this subject?

I guess we'll have to expel the Georgian Orthodox Church, as they were evangelized by a woman, St. Nina.

And we'll have to drop St. Mary of Egypt from the calendar.  How dare she instruct (a priest!) Zosimos on repentence.

And you women disciples of the Lord!  Don't you go telling anyone about the Resurrection!  Don't give me that apostle to the apostles, Mary Magdalene.
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« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2007, 06:57:34 AM »

Ialmisry,

may i ask what your understanding of this is-




“As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.”
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« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2007, 10:37:35 AM »

“As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.” 

Two questions:

1. What does the law say, and is it still applicable?  The verse specifically mentions "as the Law says," using it as the basis for its prohibition on women speaking.
2. Does the current social atmosphere, where women are now educated (they didn't have the same level of education in NT times) change the situation?
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« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2007, 01:30:23 PM »

“As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.”

This was written by Paul in response to discord in a particular Church caused by a small group of women, it is perhaps not the best approach but it is the approach he thought reasonable at the time. However, applying the ancient legal maxim 'cessante ratione legis cessat ipsa lex', as this particular situation in this particular Church no longer exists, the statement is void from a legal and canonical standpoint.
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« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2007, 01:43:43 PM »

I think an old OC.net classic is merited...

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,8894.msg148800.html#msg148800
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« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2007, 03:59:05 PM »

Could this also relate to Christian Forums which are a community of 'Christians'or the 'Church' or 'saints',where we might have women teaching and instructing others on these Forums?

Two problems that I see with this line of thinking ...

#1 - I do not see how an internet community comprised of people posting in near (or complete) anonymity and who do not all hold the same Christian beliefs can be considered "the Church."

#2 - I do not see that anyone here (male or female) is teaching in any definitive manner.  Rather this is a group of diverse individuals who share their opinions and knowledge but very rarely offer any "instruction."  Even the wonderful priests who volunteer their time share freely their knowledge and opinions but nearly always conclude with the advice to seek the counsel of one's own priest. 

I believe it is a stretch (of grand proportions) to try to call an internet message board the Church or the free exchange of opinions as teaching.
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« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2007, 04:11:13 PM »

I guess we'll have to expel the Georgian Orthodox Church, as they were evangelized by a woman, St. Nina.

And we'll have to drop St. Mary of Egypt from the calendar.  How dare she instruct (a priest!) Zosimos on repentence.

And you women disciples of the Lord!  Don't you go telling anyone about the Resurrection!  Don't give me that apostle to the apostles, Mary Magdalene.

God bless !

Is not also St. Thekla called "equal to the Apostels" and Protomartyr of women?



....Her mother, enraged, persuaded the judge to sentence St. Thekla to burn to death. Emboldened by her love for Christ, she made the sign of the Cross over the flames, and was surrounded by a light, untouched by the flames. Rain, and hail extinguished the fire, and, with thunder, helped to drive away those who wished to put Thekla to death.

She sought out St. Paul and his companions, including St. Barnabas, who were hiding in a cave near the city. She spread the gospel of Christ with them in Antioch, and throughout her life performed many miraculous feats and suffered many tortures to give glory to God. Having retired to a desolate region of Isaurian Seleucia with the blessing of St. Paul, Thekla continued to preach God's word and heal His children.
When St. Thekla had reached the age of 90, envious pagan sorcerors came to defile her. A large rock split open when St. Thekla called on Christ the Savior to help her, and the rock covered her, and she offered up her soul to the Lord.

"The Protomartyr Thekla, a prayerful intercessor for ascetics, is also invoked during the tonsure of women into monasticism."

IN CHRIST
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« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2007, 06:18:55 PM »

Two problems that I see with this line of thinking ...

#1 - I do not see how an internet community comprised of people posting in near (or complete) anonymity and who do not all hold the same Christian beliefs can be considered "the Church."

#2 - I do not see that anyone here (male or female) is teaching in any definitive manner.  Rather this is a group of diverse individuals who share their opinions and knowledge but very rarely offer any "instruction."  Even the wonderful priests who volunteer their time share freely their knowledge and opinions but nearly always conclude with the advice to seek the counsel of one's own priest. 

I believe it is a stretch (of grand proportions) to try to call an internet message board the Church or the free exchange of opinions as teaching.

Im speaking about for example,i am on another Orthodox Forum where all the Members are Orthodox except one or two Roman Catholics,so here we have all members of the community who are part of the Church  communicating with eachother ,Do we have to be all together in one building to call us a church,if Christians live out in the open desert are they not part of the church?

A community of Christians who are all members of the church,and i just asked what the role of women should be within these communities whether they be on an All Christian Forum ,or in the desert,or a monastery or inside a Cathedral or Church building or at Home in accordance to St Pauls Teaching about women being silent and submissive to their husbands ,and i wanting to learn must ask their husbands or Father in their Homes.

Heres some reading-

http://www.bethelministries.com/subjection.htm

Fixed quote box - Ukiemeister
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« Reply #12 on: November 27, 2007, 07:46:39 PM »


Ah, that was certainly one of my better posts. Thanks for reminding me about it.
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« Reply #13 on: November 27, 2007, 07:53:50 PM »

Im speaking about for example,i am on another Orthodox Forum where all the Members are Orthodox except one or two Roman Catholics,so here we have all members of the community who are part of the Church  communicating with eachother ,Do we have to be all together in one building to call us a church,if Christians live out in the open desert are they not part of the church?

A community of Christians who are all members of the church,and i just asked what the role of women should be within these communities whether they be on an All Christian Forum ,or in the desert,or a monastery or inside a Cathedral or Church building or at Home in accordance to St Pauls Teaching about women being silent and submissive to their husbands ,and i wanting to learn must ask their husbands or Father in their Homes.

Heres some reading-

http://www.bethelministries.com/subjection.htm

Fixed quote box - Ukiemeister


Mr. Lightspeed, who states he is a member of the ROCOR, wants us to read a Protestant site (Bethel ministries) to prove his point that women should be silent in church and on Orthodox forums.   Roll Eyes

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« Reply #14 on: November 27, 2007, 08:02:21 PM »

A community of Christians who are all members of the church,and i just asked what the role of women should be within these communities whether they be on an All Christian Forum ,or in the desert,or a monastery or inside a Cathedral or Church building or at Home in accordance to St Pauls Teaching about women being silent and submissive to their husbands ,and i wanting to learn must ask their husbands or Father in their Homes.

What role should they have? Well if you ask me (which you accidently just implied that you did Grin) I would say every role up to and including the episcopacy, patriarchal thrones inclusive. It is my solemn prayer that before I die I can write a letter of congratulations to Her All-Holiness, the Oecumenical Patriarch (though in all probability only great advancements in the miracles of science could preserve my life for so long).

As for the dominate/submissive lifestyle you seem to be trying to Christianize at the end of the above paragraph, I don't care what you do behind closed doors with a willing partner, but I personally don't want to hear about your paraphilia.
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« Reply #15 on: November 27, 2007, 08:43:12 PM »

Let's not forget St. Helen, "who found the Precious Cross," is "Equal to the Apostles."
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« Reply #16 on: November 27, 2007, 11:34:59 PM »

Let's not forget St. Helen, "who found the Precious Cross," is "Equal to the Apostles."

There are others as well who are "Equal to the Apostles," or even just called "Apostles" (St. Priscilla).
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« Reply #17 on: November 28, 2007, 12:27:59 AM »

There are others as well who are "Equal to the Apostles," or even just called "Apostles" (St. Priscilla).

Acts 18:26: He (Apollos) began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they invited him to their home and explained to him the way of God more adequately.

Emphasis added.

I would like to ask the OP what might be the reason for this subject to come up?

Sometimes the "why" behind something can be very significant

Ebor
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« Reply #18 on: November 28, 2007, 01:03:08 AM »

Mr. Lightspeed, who states he is a member of the ROCOR, wants us to read a Protestant site (Bethel ministries) to prove his point that women should be silent in church and on Orthodox forums.   Roll Eyes





In terms of prophesying, both men and women prophesied under the inspiration of the Paraclete as was the case in Corinth. But women had to cover their head when prophesying, unlike men who had no need of a head covering (1 Corinthians 11 : 4 – 5). Although men and women were equal in God’s eyes, a man was a man and a woman should thus remain a woman. Each of the sexes had a specific function to fulfill in terms of God’s plan. Women had to wear a veil so as not to dishonour their head who is man. Furthermore, according to 1 Corinthians 14 : 1 - 40, Paul insists that order must be maintained during worship and that “the woman should keep silence in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak (lalein)” but rather “keep silence” (sigan), (vs. 34 – 35). If women wish to know anything they should ask their husbands at home. This probably arises due to the habit of women to ask questions of those who were functioning in the Gifts which resulted in worship being disturbed and disrupted. Timothy backs this up in Timothy 2 : 11, where he asserts “let  a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness”. In both 1 Timothy 2 and 1 Corinthians 11, we see that male and female have distinct divinely appointed places in the order of Creation. This mode of thinking was very much in line with the Jewish mentality which according to Mosaic Law did not give great value to the witness of women in terms of religious issues.

In  1 Corinthians 1, 2 – 16, Paul refers to the appropriate behaviour in worship (Conzelmann 1975 : 182). God is the model of the sexes who are created in His image (Genesis 1 , 26-27). In Greek custom, women attended worship without a veil on the head and with short hair and men attended with long hair (Chrysostom, in Homily XXVI on 1 Corinthians). Paul according to Theodoret, Interpretation of 1 Corinthians 11 : 11-35, undoubtedly frowned on this as it was an affront to the order of creation.

As women were not allowed to teach or have authority over men they were unable to become an episkopos or presbyter who would instruct a community of believers( 1 Timothy 3 : 2 – 5). Just as the order of the Triune Godhead  and their mutual relationship cannot be altered, so too cannot be altered the order of humanity and the mutual relationship of women and men in the order of creation which is restored in the Ekklesia (Voulgaris 1996 : 40). If male and female reverse their exclusive roles then they are also reversing their personal qualities and therefore also their mutual relationship. This is intolerable for Paul who recognizes the specific role and function of each of the sexes just as each of the members of the Triune Godhead have a specific role and function. On a human level, man “reflects what God is on the divine level” (Ibid. 40-42). The order of Creation goes back to God the Father (Ephesians 3 : 14 – 15) who is the source of all existence. Man’s ascendancy over women goes back to Creation where man was created first (1 Corinthians 11 : Cool. Furthermore, woman was created for man as a helper (Genesis 2 :18). Nonetheless, woman is of the same ousia (nature) as man as she originates from him just as by analogy, Jesus Christ and the Paraclete emanate from God the Father: “God the Father is Christ’s head as his generator and projector and is homoousios ; man is woman’s head because he, too, is her generator and projector and homoousios with her. The analogy is consequent and proper…”(Photius in Cramer, ed., CGP, Vol.V : 208).

A deaconess had far less to do in her role than her male counterpart and she was thus far less important than a male deacon although her pastoral care and administrative abilities were greatly valued by the communities in which they served. Despite this adherents were acutely aware that Jesus Christ did not authorize women to preach His Word with any apostolic authority. The Eastern Orthodox Church is thus faithful to the example set by Jesus concerning only male priesthood. It was the main task of the Apostles to preach the gospel, kerygma and didache : “in public and from house to house"”(Acts 20 : 18 -–1). Paul asked Timothy : “what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also” (2 Timothy 2 :2).

http://dlibrary.acu.edu.au/research/theology/ejournal/aejt_4/Nicolaides.htm
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« Reply #19 on: November 28, 2007, 01:38:18 AM »

In Greek custom, women attended worship without a veil on the head and with short hair and men attended with long hair (Chrysostom, in Homily XXVI on 1 Corinthians). Paul according to Theodoret, Interpretation of 1 Corinthians 11 : 11-35, undoubtedly frowned on this as it was an affront to the order of creation.

I find it intersting, considering we evolved without either clothing or skill in barbery, that one could argue that certain hair and clothing styles are natural to one gender or the other. Even if one believes the Genesis myth, we were created naked and still without skill in barbery. So how could veils be natural? We certainly didn't evolve with them, the entire argument seems nonsensical. And while it could be argued that long hair on women is in line with the 'order of creation', the same argument would imply that this is true of men too. Did the author of this article actually think about what he was saying from an even semi-objective standpoint or was he so anxious to get published that he just threw down on paper anything he thought would receive a rubber stamp from a far-right catholic organization? I'm guessing the latter is most likely the case.

Of course, this author is free to present whatever nonsense he wishes, and the editors are free to publish whatever they wish, regardless of how it discredits their publication (possibly not a big concern with an 'e-journal'). But by the same right, I am free to dismiss this nonsense for what it is. Again, this entire argument is negated by the ancient legal maxim ''cessante ratione legis cessat ipsa lex'. However, I find it interesting that while a cornerstone of the misogynists' arguments is that exclusion from clerical orders in no way diminishes the equality of the genders or the importance of a person. Yes, this author clearly states, 'A deaconess...was thus far less important than a male deacon.' So much for that line of propaganda. I'll keep this quote in mind for our future discussions on this matter, I don't know that you understand how great of a rhetorical blow you just dealt your cause.
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« Reply #20 on: November 28, 2007, 02:29:47 AM »

Don't forget St. Tamara, she was Queen and ruler of Georgia, who ushered in the golden age of Orthodoxy for her subjects. Yet she was courageous enough to ride into battle with her soldiers to defeat the muslims who had invaded her country. Her fearlessness inspired many of those muslims to convert.

Sorry...Mr. LS...we no longer live in the dark ages...our church needs women to lead in a variety of ways. My bishop gave me an order to get over my shyness and fear of public speaking because he needed me to be a leader for one of his ministries.
I complied with Sayidna's wishes.
The days of women only working in the kitchen are over   Wink
There is much work to be done!
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« Reply #21 on: November 28, 2007, 03:03:06 AM »

My bishop gave me an order to get over my shyness and fear of public speaking because he needed me to be a leader for one of his ministries.
I complied with Sayidna's wishes.
The days of women only working in the kitchen are over   Wink
There is much work to be done!

You were shy at one time?   Cheesy
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« Reply #22 on: November 28, 2007, 09:48:56 AM »

Mr. Lightspeed, who states he is a member of the ROCOR, wants us to read a Protestant site (Bethel ministries) to prove his point that women should be silent in church and on Orthodox forums.   Roll Eyes



That is quite interesting, isn't it?  Not just a Protestant site, but a rather far afield Evangelical Protestant site whose "Doctrinal Statement" asserts a great many things that no Orthodox (or Catholic) Christian could possibly agree to without placing one's soul in serious peril (you know that pesky heresy thing).  And that is what he proposes as evidence to support his theories?  Hmmm ... Seems a bit odd to me.
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« Reply #23 on: November 28, 2007, 02:45:07 PM »

Two questions:

1. What does the law say, and is it still applicable?  The verse specifically mentions "as the Law says," using it as the basis for its prohibition on women speaking.
2. Does the current social atmosphere, where women are now educated (they didn't have the same level of education in NT times) change the situation?

I find it interesting that this post by cleveland was virtually ignored by Mr. Lightspeed.  Is that because you can't answer the questions without discrediting your own opinion?

I don't guess I need to state how I feel about the subject, considering that I am a Presbytera who is VERY active in the church, and (don't let me scandalize you, Mr. LS) I teach Sunday School...

I would like to hear (*read*) the opinions of others with regards to this posting by Cleveland, because IMHO, the questions themselves, not to mention their answers, are an excellent response to the OP.
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« Reply #24 on: November 28, 2007, 06:40:34 PM »

I'm uncomfortable with women being and reading the epistle because of these verses.  Have women historically served in these ways or is this a recent development?  I'd feel much better if I knew women had commonly served in these ways before the rise of feminism.
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« Reply #25 on: November 28, 2007, 07:07:04 PM »

I'm uncomfortable with women being and reading the epistle because of these verses.  Have women historically served in these ways or is this a recent development?  I'd feel much better if I knew women had commonly served in these ways before the rise of feminism.

If I may, I would like to bring up something that is *required* for a person to read the Epistle:

Literacy.

In the past it was not universal or even  common in most of the world for the general population, both male and female.  Chances for education were limited and in parts of the world today they still are.  It is more common for a boy to go to school in parts of Asia and Africa then for a girl because she is expected to stay at home and do chores while the boy might have a chance for better paying work.  Even in Europe and the United States a drive for universal literacy has only been around in the last 200 years or so. 

Education was often found in monestaries and convents. Women were taught to read there and I have read of and heard nuns reading Scripture passages during worship.

What do you consider to be the date of the rise of feminism, please?  The call for rights for women is not a 20th century phenomenon and I would like to suggest that women who were not able to read or write or get other education were not able to spread develope ideas of equality either.

May I ask why the idea of a woman reading the scriptures aloud in church makes you uncomfortable, please?

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« Reply #26 on: November 28, 2007, 07:24:14 PM »

If I may, I would like to bring up something that is *required* for a person to read the Epistle:

Literacy.

In the past it was not universal or even  common in most of the world for the general population, both male and female.  Chances for education were limited and in parts of the world today they still are.  It is more common for a boy to go to school in parts of Asia and Africa then for a girl because she is expected to stay at home and do chores while the boy might have a chance for better paying work.  Even in Europe and the United States a drive for universal literacy has only been around in the last 200 years or so. 

Education was often found in monestaries and convents. Women were taught to read there and I have read of and heard nuns reading Scripture passages during worship.

What do you consider to be the date of the rise of feminism, please?  The call for rights for women is not a 20th century phenomenon and I would like to suggest that women who were not able to read or write or get other education were not able to spread develope ideas of equality either.

May I ask why the idea of a woman reading the scriptures aloud in church makes you uncomfortable, please?

Ebor

Mmmm-Hmmmm.   Right on.  This gets back to my 2 questions (which remain unaswered by anyone, let alone the person they were directed to):

(I adjusted the size to make them more readable in the quote)

Two questions:

1. What does the law say, and is it still applicable?  The verse specifically mentions "as the Law says," using it as the basis for its prohibition on women speaking.
2. Does the current social atmosphere, where women are now educated (they didn't have the same level of education in NT times) change the situation?
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« Reply #27 on: November 28, 2007, 07:28:42 PM »

I'm uncomfortable with women being and reading the epistle because of these verses.  Have women historically served in these ways or is this a recent development?  I'd feel much better if I knew women had commonly served in these ways before the rise of feminism.

Dr. Valerie A. Karras discusses several of the ways that women have historically served in liturgical roles in her article "The Liturgical Functions of Consecrated Women in the Byzantine Church," originally published in Theological Studies, Vol. 66, 2005.

Part of it is available online here:
http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/gi_0199-4364060/The-liturgical-functions-of-consecrated.html
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« Reply #28 on: November 28, 2007, 11:59:11 PM »

Mmmm-Hmmmm.   Right on.  This gets back to my 2 questions (which remain unaswered by anyone, let alone the person they were directed to):

(I adjusted the size to make them more readable in the quote)

So was St Paul speaking as an antiChristian Pharisee when he said this or as an Apostle with instructions to all the Gentile Christians to come with  these words filled with the Holy Spirit and forever eternal and unchanging regardless of the changing times?
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« Reply #29 on: November 29, 2007, 12:29:53 AM »

So was St Paul speaking as an antiChristian Pharisee when he said this or as an Apostle with instructions to all the Gentile Christians to come with  these words filled with the Holy Spirit and forever eternal and unchanging regardless of the changing times? 

Don't answer my questions with a question, especially one that doesn't apply to my questions!

As to your question (someone has to answer questions posed here!), who said anything about St. Paul speaking as a Pharisee?  I surely didn't - so don't set up the strawman.

As for "forever and unchanging words," there are other things that St. Paul mentions in the NT that were applicable for the Church at that time, but aren't anymore: prohibitions on divorce, etc.  Not everything that St. Paul said was intended for posterity: he was indeed writing to historical churches that existed at a particular time and place!  So again, don't set up the strawman that we're somehow questioning St. Paul's wisdom or authority or whatnot.  Answer my question, or explicitly refuse to do so.
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« Reply #30 on: November 29, 2007, 01:21:41 AM »

yes ,your majesty
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« Reply #31 on: November 29, 2007, 01:26:16 AM »

yes ,your majesty

You still didn't answer his questions.
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« Reply #32 on: November 29, 2007, 01:31:43 AM »

Looking back to the top ,it seems i wasnt the first one to answer a question with a question.
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« Reply #33 on: November 29, 2007, 01:38:18 AM »

Looking back to the top ,it seems i wasnt the first one to answer a question with a question.

Your point being?...

You still didn't answer his questions.
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« Reply #34 on: November 29, 2007, 01:43:16 AM »

Looking back to the top ,it seems i wasnt the first one to answer a question with a question.
You're avoiding the issue.  Just answer the questions.
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« Reply #35 on: November 29, 2007, 01:51:30 AM »

What role should they have? Well if you ask me (which you accidently just implied that you did Grin) I would say every role up to and including the episcopacy, patriarchal thrones inclusive. It is my solemn prayer that before I die I can write a letter of congratulations to Her All-Holiness, the Oecumenical Patriarch (though in all probability only great advancements in the miracles of science could preserve my life for so long).
I am somewhat surprised to read this. What percentage of Orthodox Christians are in favor of women priests? For R Catholics, the issue is said to be closed. For example, according to Pope John Paul II: "Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church's divine constitution itself, in virtue of Our ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32) We declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church's faithful."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordinatio_Sacerdotalis
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« Reply #36 on: November 29, 2007, 01:52:11 AM »

If you look back to my original questions ,and then look at Clevelands first post,you will see that he does not answer my questions,but ASKS ME questions.

So then in his last post ,he tells me not to answer his question with a question.

Come on mate,

So let him answer my original questions.
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« Reply #37 on: November 29, 2007, 02:02:45 AM »

I am somewhat surprised to read this. What percentage of Orthodox Christians are in favor of women priests? For R Catholics, the issue is said to be closed. For example, according to Pope John Paul II: "Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church's divine constitution itself, in virtue of Our ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32) We declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church's faithful."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordinatio_Sacerdotalis

I wouldn't be congradulating yourselves so soon, the immortal idea of liberté, égalité, ou la mort is here to stay. And while we may suffer setbacks from time to time, the ideal itself will not be defeated and will continue to threaten your social order.

And no despot, temporal or ecclesiastical, can overturn this reality. Wink
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« Reply #38 on: November 29, 2007, 02:04:42 AM »

If you look back to my original questions ,and then look at Clevelands first post,you will see that he does not answer my questions,but ASKS ME questions.

So then in his last post ,he tells me not to answer his question with a question.

Come on mate,

So let him answer my original questions.

George had already answered your questions for you.
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« Reply #39 on: November 29, 2007, 02:06:52 AM »

So was Clevelands first post a reply to me or to George?

I believe it was to me.

He directs me to answer his questions,while before hand he responds to me with two questions,doesnt matter what the others have said,i respect their replies.

The point is Cleveland responded to me with Questions first,and then he gives it to me for doing the same.
 
My questions have been asked and i have read the responses and i like some of them and agree.

But I may ask again ,"When in fact is it a Disgrace ,as St Paul says ,for women to speak in the Church.?

Maybe its been answered ,"for those Prostitutes of Corinth to speak"

HuhHuhHuhHuhHuh
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« Reply #40 on: November 29, 2007, 02:11:30 AM »

I am somewhat surprised to read this. What percentage of Orthodox Christians are in favor of women priests? For R Catholics, the issue is said to be closed. For example, according to Pope John Paul II: "Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church's divine constitution itself, in virtue of Our ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32) We declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church's faithful."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordinatio_Sacerdotalis


A very small percentage. I am not for it. But I also do not believe women should be silent and only do their ministry in the parish kitchen. These super conservative Orthodox misogynists are a dying breed.
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« Reply #41 on: November 29, 2007, 02:19:48 AM »

But I may ask again ,"When in fact is it a Disgrace ,as St Paul says ,for women to speak in the Church.?

Maybe its been answered ,"for those Prostitutes of Corinth to speak"

cessante ratione legis cessat ipsa lex

So are you going to answer his questions now, or at least clearly state that you refuse to do so?
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« Reply #42 on: November 29, 2007, 02:26:40 AM »

i dont have to do anything for you buddy,

your pushing me to answer questions for somebody who originally didnt directly answer my questions.

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« Reply #43 on: November 29, 2007, 02:27:37 AM »

Dr. Valerie A. Karras discusses several of the ways that women have historically served in liturgical roles in her article "The Liturgical Functions of Consecrated Women in the Byzantine Church," originally published in Theological Studies, Vol. 66, 2005.

Dr. Karras often raises some legitimate points in her work.  Unfortunately, partly through the testimony and argument of other scholars I have found her to be one who has an "axe to grind" in ways that make it difficult for me to trust her objectivity.  
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« Reply #44 on: November 29, 2007, 02:29:33 AM »

i dont have to do anything for you buddy,

your pushing me to answer questions for somebody who originally didnt directly answer my questions.

No, you don't have to...and what exactly makes you think I really want you to? Every time you refuse to answer the reasonable questions directed at you you simply aid my cause and weaken your own. Even though I'm sure cleveland would rather engage you in honest dialogue than be party to my propaganda. Wink
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« Reply #45 on: November 29, 2007, 02:31:21 AM »

Dr. Karras often raises some legitimate points in her work.  Unfortunately, partly through the testimony and argument of other scholars I have found her to be one who has an "axe to grind" in ways that make it difficult for me to trust her objectivity.

Everyone has an axe to grind, the only question is whether or not they are supporting your preconceived notions, apparently in this case the good Doctor isn't. But, to be fair, I'll also attack someone's credentials if they publish something I disagree with.
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« Reply #46 on: November 29, 2007, 02:32:47 AM »

I wouldn't be congradulating yourselves so soon, the immortal idea of liberté, égalité, ou la mort is here to stay. And while we may suffer setbacks from time to time, the ideal itself will not be defeated and will continue to threaten your social order.
I don't understand the post.
My remark was a simple observation that women priests have been ruled out in Catholicism, and I thought that it was the same for the E. Orthodox Churches.
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« Reply #47 on: November 29, 2007, 02:36:07 AM »

I'm uncomfortable with women reading the epistle...

So am I.  And I am perfectly happy with having a female boss, a female church warden, etc.  I have written quite a bit about this stuff in other threads and I don't really want to re-invent my wheel here, so to speak.
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« Reply #48 on: November 29, 2007, 02:38:49 AM »

I don't understand the post.
My remark was a simple observation that women priests have been ruled out in Catholicism, and I thought that it was the same for the E. Orthodox Churches.

I don't know what you don't understand, the essence of my post was liberté, égalité, ou la mort...liberty, equality, or death.

This ideal is here to stay, neither your nor the pope can undermine the foundational ideals of western society with a simple proclamation, the pressure exerted by the cause of truth and justice will forever remain. Basically, the war is not over, in either Constantinople or Rome; the proponents of social justice will not surrender and will not rest.
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« Reply #49 on: November 29, 2007, 02:39:35 AM »

No, you don't have to...and what exactly makes you think I really want you to? Every time you refuse to answer the reasonable questions directed at you you simply aid my cause and weaken your own. Even though I'm sure cleveland would rather engage you in honest dialogue than be party to my propaganda. Wink

Go your way buddy
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« Reply #50 on: November 29, 2007, 02:43:57 AM »

Go your way buddy

Ah, I get it now, you actually agree with me and were playing the devil's advocate inorder to defeat the other side by reductio ad absurdum...I like it, but next time send me a PM first and we'll put on a good show for everyone. Wink
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« Reply #51 on: November 29, 2007, 02:46:47 AM »

I don't understand the post.
My remark was a simple observation that women priests have been ruled out in Catholicism, and I thought that it was the same for the E. Orthodox Churches.

GiC is just trying to test Mae West's famous belief that "those who are easily shocked should be shocked more often."  Don't encourage him, and he'll let up a little.  Maybe. Wink

Regarding your question: Unlike in the Catholic Church, where I believe debate around the issue is forbidden, it is perfectly okay for Orthodox theologians (and those of the armchair variety Wink) to debate and ponder the possibility of female ordination to the priesthood.  However, it is extremely unlikely that this will ever happen, no matter what GiC tells you.  Tamara is correct when she says that very few Orthodox favour female ordination to the priesthood.  The diaconate, however, is another matter entirely, as there is a good deal of credible evidence to show that a female diaconate thrived in the Eastern Church in part of the first millenium, and survived well into the second.
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« Reply #52 on: November 29, 2007, 03:14:35 AM »

Ah, I get it now, you actually agree with me and were playing the devil's advocate inorder to defeat the other side by reductio ad absurdum...I like it, but next time send me a PM first and we'll put on a good show for everyone. Wink

I dont have to agree with you because your greek and the superior race of mankind and because you are butting in with something between me and Cleveland and why are you asking me if i will reply ?are not you encouraging me to reply which must mean you would like me to reply.

Is there not Hypocrasy in Cleveland firmly telling me not to answer with questions when in fact he did the same thing before me.

Why should i answer for Cleveland if he did not answer me firstly?
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« Reply #53 on: November 29, 2007, 03:36:52 AM »

I dont have to agree with you because your greek and the superior race of mankind

Yeah, that's it...LOL Cheesy

Quote
Why should i answer for Cleveland if he did not answer me firstly?

Because you asked general questions to everyone, he specifically asked you questions.
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« Reply #54 on: November 29, 2007, 03:50:40 AM »

GiC is just trying to test Mae West's famous belief that "those who are easily shocked should be shocked more often."  Don't encourage him, and he'll let up a little.  Maybe. Wink

Regarding your question: Unlike in the Catholic Church, where I believe debate around the issue is forbidden, it is perfectly okay for Orthodox theologians (and those of the armchair variety Wink) to debate and ponder the possibility of female ordination to the priesthood.  However, it is extremely unlikely that this will ever happen, no matter what GiC tells you.  Tamara is correct when she says that very few Orthodox favour female ordination to the priesthood.  The diaconate, however, is another matter entirely, as there is a good deal of credible evidence to show that a female diaconate thrived in the Eastern Church in part of the first millenium, and survived well into the second.
Thank you.
In RC, while there is no female diaconate, there are female Eucharistic servers and there are female readers.
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« Reply #55 on: November 29, 2007, 04:03:25 AM »

Yeah, that's it...LOL Cheesy

Because you asked general questions to everyone, he specifically asked you questions.

the word is Gentiles,not greeks

So do all the people who reply to my first post form an ecumenical council where they all are enlightened by the Holy Spirit and form one opinion and decision?

or is it possible that each person who replies has his own view and seperate personal response?

Am i not asking questions or a question directed to a human being,

Does Cleveland not qualify to being a human being which can respond to my question with this thing called personal communication.

This form of a human being called Cleveland personally answered to my Original post with questions ,not answers etc etc etc you know the rest
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« Reply #56 on: November 29, 2007, 04:13:46 AM »

Thank you.
In RC, while there is no female diaconate, there are female Eucharistic servers and there are female readers.

No problem.  
I'd just like to be clear on a couple of points.  (This is partly for the benefit of those posters who might not be aware of some issues surrounding RC practice.)  A Eucharistic server does a few tasks that an RC deacon might do, to be sure.  But it is not an ordained position.  And since the order of lector and subdeacon were supressed in the Latin Church about 1970, the position of reader is not an ordained one either.  

FYI, the great majority (all?) of the female readers in the Orthodox Church are not  ordained (what we call "tonsured readers"), however some bishops do bless women to read in a manner that has some characteristics of ordination to a "minor" order.

The most compelling evidence indicates that female deacons were ordained at the altar in a manner closely resembling the ordination of male deacons.  However, their liturgical functions appear to have been limited to assisting in the baptism of women and a few other tasks.  This is not to say that these female deacons were not full deacons.  IMHO, the diaconate is one, not separate male and female orders.
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« Reply #57 on: November 29, 2007, 04:20:46 AM »

FYI, the great majority (all?) of the female readers in the Orthodox Church are not  ordained (what we call "tonsured readers"), however some bishops do bless women to read in a manner that has some characteristics of ordination to a "minor" order.

As a point of clarification, His Eminence Met. Anthony of San Francisco, of blessed memory, did tonsure a few women readers. I've heard that other Bishops have done so as well, though I don't know other specific situations.
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« Reply #58 on: November 29, 2007, 04:36:38 AM »

FYI, the great majority (all?) of the female readers in the Orthodox Church are not  ordained (what we call "tonsured readers"), however some bishops do bless women to read in a manner that has some characteristics of ordination to a "minor" order.

The most compelling evidence indicates that female deacons were ordained at the altar in a manner closely resembling the ordination of male deacons.  However, their liturgical functions appear to have been limited to assisting in the baptism of women and a few other tasks.  This is not to say that these female deacons were not full deacons.  IMHO, the diaconate is one, not separate male and female orders.
There is also the question concerning whether or not women and in particular women readers should have their heads covered while in Church. Before Vatican II in the RC Church, women covered their heads in Church, but this is no longer generally observed, at least in the USA, except by those members of a small Traditional group of the Church, where the old Latin Mass is celebrated. However, I noticed that at an  Old Calendar Orthodox Church in our locality, all of the women do wear headcovering. 
I guess, then that generally, in the USA, women, even if they are readers, and even if they were tonsured as someone as mentioned has happened, they would not be required to wear headcovering in an Orthodox Church?
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« Reply #59 on: November 29, 2007, 09:02:53 AM »

yes ,your majesty

Looking back to the top ,it seems i wasnt the first one to answer a question with a question.

If you look back to my original questions ,and then look at Clevelands first post,you will see that he does not answer my questions,but ASKS ME questions.

So then in his last post ,he tells me not to answer his question with a question.

Come on mate,

So let him answer my original questions.

So was Clevelands first post a reply to me or to George?

I believe it was to me.

He directs me to answer his questions,while before hand he responds to me with two questions,doesnt matter what the others have said,i respect their replies.

The point is Cleveland responded to me with Questions first,and then he gives it to me for doing the same.
 
My questions have been asked and i have read the responses and i like some of them and agree.

But I may ask again ,"When in fact is it a Disgrace ,as St Paul says ,for women to speak in the Church.?

Maybe its been answered ,"for those Prostitutes of Corinth to speak"

HuhHuhHuhHuhHuh

i dont have to do anything for you buddy,

your pushing me to answer questions for somebody who originally didnt directly answer my questions. 

*Sigh*

What is obvious from the context in which I posted my questions is that they are questions seeking clarification of your understanding of the basic document you put forth in the OP.  My questions were honest, not seeking to dodge the original question, but rather seeking a way of better understanding your position in order to allow me to answer the question you posed.  One thing that I've learned during my time on OC.net is that it is best to know the presuppositions of the person you are speaking to, in order to ascertain how the question(s) should be answered.  If one doesn't take these factors into account, then the presentation of my answer may either fall on (a) deaf ears, or (b) waiting claws, which shred the answer for reasons other than its logical or theological content.  In the re-reading of my first post, it should be obvious that I am not attempting to dodge the original question, but am rather seeking more information in order to make an informed response.

Now, as to your question you posed of me: you make an absurd statement which you imply is my position in order to dodge answering my questions.  Doing so gives the appearance that you are avoiding the questions because you have no pertinent response to them, and so instead you seek to attack my position (which you don't know about).  The problem is that your implication has no foundation, neither in this thread, nor in any other on this site, especially if it is directed at me.  I've got 5,800+ posts - go ahead and check them all out and tell me where I ever imply or state what you've said.

Instead, your argument is (a) a straw man, and (b) a poor attempt at reductio ad absurdum.  When anyone who is serious about the discussion at hand sees these kinds of tactics, they immediately seek to either call out the person using them (as I did), or they avoid the conversation, since the person in question doesn't seem interested in honest dialogue.

Now, since you don't appear to understand these principles, I should (in good conscience) withdraw from the conversation since no honest dialogue is occurring.  However, since I do really want to hear your answers to my questions, I will persist, and once my questions are answered, I will have all the information necessary to formulate my answer to your original question.
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« Reply #60 on: November 29, 2007, 10:56:00 AM »

Just an observation ...

This could have been a really interesting thread.  Except for the juvenile "Lalalalala I'm not listening.  I don't have to answer you.  You're not the boss of me." behaviour exhibited.  Sorry to see such an interesting discussion derailed by childish tantrums.
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« Reply #61 on: November 29, 2007, 11:41:48 AM »

As a point of clarification, His Eminence Met. Anthony of San Francisco, of blessed memory, did tonsure a few women readers. I've heard that other Bishops have done so as well, though I don't know other specific situations.

For which he was criticized by more than just Internet forum folks.
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« Reply #62 on: November 29, 2007, 11:53:15 AM »

For which he was criticized by more than just Internet forum folks.
We are talking about the Orthodox Church here....Bishops are criticised no matter what they do.
We even remove Bishops who are Saints from their positions as Bishops!
And if I recall correctly, St. Nektarios also faced criticism from the Archbishop of Athens for tonsuring two female subdeacons.
I don't think I know of one single Bishop who hasn't been criticized for a decision at one time or another!
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« Reply #63 on: November 29, 2007, 12:31:43 PM »

There is also the question concerning whether or not women and in particular women readers should have their heads covered while in Church. Before Vatican II in the RC Church, women covered their heads in Church, but this is no longer generally observed, at least in the USA, except by those members of a small Traditional group of the Church, where the old Latin Mass is celebrated. However, I noticed that at an  Old Calendar Orthodox Church in our locality, all of the women do wear headcovering. 
I guess, then that generally, in the USA, women, even if they are readers, and even if they were tonsured as someone as mentioned has happened, they would not be required to wear headcovering in an Orthodox Church?

Yes. There is no requirement for a woman to cover her head in church. Most Orthodox jurisdictions leave it to the conscience of the woman to decide if she wants to cover her head.
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« Reply #64 on: November 29, 2007, 12:34:54 PM »

So am I.  And I am perfectly happy with having a female boss, a female church warden, etc.  I have written quite a bit about this stuff in other threads and I don't really want to re-invent my wheel here, so to speak.

I have no problems with female readers.  In some cases a small mission parish may not have the choice.  However, I do have problems with female Eucharistic ministers.  This I feel is more of a problem than readers.  Only Priests and Deacons should be handling the Body and Blood of Christ.  In the RCC, are female Eucharistic ministers allowed to give out communion if they are in their period?   Its a "blood" issue. Even altar boys who may cut their finger prior to Liturgy are not allowed to serve on the altar.
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« Reply #65 on: November 29, 2007, 12:38:24 PM »

We are talking about the Orthodox Church here....Bishops are criticised no matter what they do.
We even remove Bishops who are Saints from their positions as Bishops!
And if I recall correctly, St. Nektarios also faced criticism from the Archbishop of Athens for tonsuring two female subdeacons.
I don't think I know of one single Bishop who hasn't been criticized for a decision at one time or another!

Yep. How else to keep to the path? Can't call a synod for everything.
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« Reply #66 on: November 29, 2007, 12:41:09 PM »

However, I do have problems with female Eucharistic ministers.

Just a nit-pick about terminology.  The proper term for the laity who assist in the distribution of the Holy Eucharist is, Extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion. 

Eucharistic Ministers, are technically speaking, priests, who are the "Ordinary Ministers" of the Eucharist.
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« Reply #67 on: November 29, 2007, 12:48:10 PM »

Just a nit-pick about terminology.  The proper term for the laity who assist in the distribution of the Holy Eucharist is, Extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion. 

Eucharistic Ministers, are technically speaking, priests, who are the "Ordinary Ministers" of the Eucharist.

The results are the same in spite of what names you attach to them.
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« Reply #68 on: November 29, 2007, 12:57:58 PM »

Yes. There is no requirement for a woman to cover her head in church. Most Orthodox jurisdictions leave it to the conscience of the woman to decide if she wants to cover her head.
Many modern Churches today don't follow the word of God as given in  1 Corinthians 11:2-16
 where headcovering is mandated for women. However, I see that the Old Calendar Orthodox and the Traditional group of Catholics do follow the Bible in this regard.
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« Reply #69 on: November 29, 2007, 12:59:40 PM »

The results are the same in spite of what names you attach to them.

I was just clarifying (for those who are not Roman Catholic) what names the Church attaches to them.  I'm sorry that bothered you.  I do not disagree with your assessment of why women should not be an Extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion.  I am, in fact, opposed to all but the most judicious and sparing use of any EMHC.   

But when we confuse the terminology we can seriously compromise and confuse the issue.
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« Reply #70 on: November 29, 2007, 01:02:38 PM »

I was just clarifying (for those who are not Roman Catholic) what names the Church attaches to them.  I'm sorry that bothered you.  I do not disagree with your assessment of why women should not be an Extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion.  I am, in fact, opposed to all but the most judicious and sparing use of any EMHC.   

But when we confuse the terminology we can seriously compromise and confuse the issue.

No, Im sorry I came across so short. I should have explained my answer more. Anyway,  we both agree that the dispensing of Eucharist should remain the sole propriety of the Priest.
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« Reply #71 on: November 29, 2007, 01:07:21 PM »

Anyway,  we both agree that the dispensing of Eucharist should remain the sole propriety of the Priest.
Would you say then that the Catholic Church and Pope Benedict are wrong when they allow women to dispense the Eucharist and even more to conduct the Communion service? And women perform these functions in the Catholic Church with no headcovering as mandated by 1 Corinthians 11:2-16.
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« Reply #72 on: November 29, 2007, 01:12:58 PM »

Would you say then that the Catholic Church and Pope Benedict are wrong when they allow women to dispense the Eucharist and even more to conduct the Communion service? And women perform these functions in the Catholic Church with no headcovering as mandated by 1 Corinthians 11:2-16.


I am not JoeS (obviously) but I would say that very human people (priests and laity alike) make a grave error when they over use (and abuse) the permission granted by the Holy See to use Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion.
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« Reply #73 on: November 29, 2007, 01:15:56 PM »

Would you say then that the Catholic Church and Pope Benedict are wrong when they allow women to dispense the Eucharist and even more to conduct the Communion service?


Excuse my shortness, but my answer is a resounding YES.
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« Reply #74 on: November 29, 2007, 01:18:17 PM »

Many modern Churches today don't follow the word of God as given in  1 Corinthians 11:2-16
 where headcovering is mandated for women. However, I see that the Old Calendar Orthodox and the Traditional group of Catholics do follow the Bible in this regard.

I believe it is best to leave it to the conscience of a woman and not mandate it. It is ironic but a group of women who wore headcoverings in one of our Antiochian parishes were a part of the group who rebelled against the authority of my bishop. And this group rebelled due to pride in their extreme praxis. Headcoverings do not guarantee a woman will submit to her bishop's authority.
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« Reply #75 on: November 29, 2007, 01:46:41 PM »

As a point of clarification, His Eminence Met. Anthony of San Francisco, of blessed memory, did tonsure a few women readers. I've heard that other Bishops have done so as well, though I don't know other specific situations.

Ah yes, you are quite right.  Thanks for refreshing my memory.
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« Reply #76 on: November 29, 2007, 01:48:32 PM »

Not to get off subject here but I have never heard of women tonsured as readers.  That really blew me away.  I'm in the Diocese of the South OCA and Archbishop Dimitri is pretty darn strict and traditional (thank goodness).  I and other women have read informally in church during Vespers but I've never ever seen a woman reading the Epistles during Divine Liturgy.  

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« Reply #77 on: November 29, 2007, 01:52:24 PM »

And if I recall correctly, St. Nektarios also faced criticism from the Archbishop of Athens for tonsuring two female subdeacons.

Right, I remember this, now that you bring it up.  Was this blessing of two female subdeacons St. Nektarios' way of trying to re-introduce what he saw at the time as the female diaconate?
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« Reply #78 on: November 29, 2007, 02:04:05 PM »

I have no problems with female readers.

I won't go on about my reasons for having grave reservations about this, becasue I would be repeating the arguments I've made in previous threads. 

Quote
 In some cases a small mission parish may not have the choice.

I would at least partly agree with this.

Quote
 However, I do have problems with female Eucharistic ministers.  This I feel is more of a problem than readers.  Only Priests and Deacons should be handling the Body and Blood of Christ.  In the RCC, are female Eucharistic ministers allowed to give out communion if they are in their period?   Its a "blood" issue. Even altar boys who may cut their finger prior to Liturgy are not allowed to serve on the altar.

Suffice it to say that I have also discussed an issue very similar to this one at great length on at least one other thread.  I don't mean to be uncharitible, but I believe your position on the "blood" issue, though certainly one held in more than a few circles, is a dangerously judaising distortion of Holy Tradition.  Moreover, there is quite good evidence to suggest that female deacons in the first millenium brought Communion to sick women.  Having said this, in the context of the Divine Liturgy there is no precedent for women distributing Holy Communion to the faithful, and in this context, this is one reason why I would oppose it in that setting.
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« Reply #79 on: November 29, 2007, 02:04:58 PM »

I believe it is best to leave it to the conscience of a woman and not mandate it. It is ironic but a group of women who wore headcoverings in one of our Antiochian parishes were a part of the group who rebelled against the authority of my bishop. And this group rebelled due to pride in their extreme praxis. Headcoverings do not guarantee a woman will submit to her bishop's authority.

It was an incident like this that disabused me of being a "traditionalist."  For the sake of a few external devotions people were willing to lie and deceive a bishop.  And really it become moral to do almost anything for the cause.  Somehow the actual traditional message of the Gospel and the basics of Orthodox ecclesiology seem to have gotten lost in the traditionalist movement. 
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« Reply #80 on: November 29, 2007, 02:19:53 PM »

It was an incident like this that disabused me of being a "traditionalist."  For the sake of a few external devotions people were willing to lie and deceive a bishop.  And really it become moral to do almost anything for the cause.  Somehow the actual traditional message of the Gospel and the basics of Orthodox ecclesiology seem to have gotten lost in the traditionalist movement. 

I agree with your thoughts on how they had lost the message of the Gospel and  ecclesiology. It is so sad because many of them started out as evangelicals who treasured the Gospel. Moderation is so important. Walking the fine line of balance is crucial.
Well, they may want to think of themselves as "traditionalists" but in reality they are still Protestants in their heart. And that is the real irony of some who take a hard "traditionalist" stance.

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« Reply #81 on: November 29, 2007, 03:15:02 PM »

I have no problems with female readers.  In some cases a small mission parish may not have the choice.  However, I do have problems with female Eucharistic ministers.  This I feel is more of a problem than readers.  Only Priests and Deacons should be handling the Body and Blood of Christ.  In the RCC, are female Eucharistic ministers allowed to give out communion if they are in their period?   Its a "blood" issue. Even altar boys who may cut their finger prior to Liturgy are not allowed to serve on the altar.

I am not quite sure what this thread is about; I have not read through the posts. I wnat to say that hwta you are saying here is absolutely true.

As a Deacon myself cuts or opened wounds on the body will keep any priest or deacon from the communion.

Also; it seems to me that 'orthodox' women (I mean women who do not think or have interests in modern idiology or feminism in its many forms which has blanketed over the whole western world especially where these issues will does or may impact the purity of the holy orthodox church....visa-ve "Todays Women") have nay interest with not wearing head covering or not speaking in the sancturary.

In the world I am in orthodox women are the ones who are the strongest in keeping the traditions holy and unchanged. We have "orthodox" women on the other hand who are feminist minded and akin to the "Todays Women" thinking. These are very few and usually leave the church to hang out with the protestants since their is little to no audience for their "movement" among the orthodox memebers.

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« Reply #82 on: November 29, 2007, 03:29:45 PM »


Suffice it to say that I have also discussed an issue very similar to this one at great length on at least one other thread.  I don't mean to be uncharitible, but I believe your position on the "blood" issue, though certainly one held in more than a few circles, is a dangerously judaising distortion of Holy Tradition.  Moreover, there is quite good evidence to suggest that female deacons in the first millenium brought Communion to sick women.  Having said this, in the context of the Divine Liturgy there is no precedent for women distributing Holy Communion to the faithful, and in this context, this is one reason why I would oppose it in that setting.

The Issue of Blood is important and yes it does have something to do with the "archaich" Jewish tradition.  It is an Orthodox Tradition (large T) as well.

Why do new mothers need to be churched after having a baby?  Why cant she come to church right after having the child?  Why, the issue of Blood.  Now, I will admit that I am not familiar with all the parameters of why the Blood issue is so important but it is Orthodox and I feel all should comply with it.  Unless I am in error, which I believe I am not, the blood issue will even prevent a wounded priest from celebrating Liturgy.

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« Reply #83 on: November 29, 2007, 03:44:58 PM »

God bless !

Women should cover the head and should be dressed proper but men too, often I read how women should be dressed but seldom about men. Proper dressing of both is needed !

When a women is reading in church or chanting - she should be dresses as it is proper for that rank.

Perhpas it is a bit off topic but I liked it:

St. Kosmas Aitolos:

God Created Women Equal to Men

WHEN GOD MADE MAN, he took a rib from him and made woman and he gave her to him as a companion. God created her equal with man and not inferior.

"How do you regard your women here?"

"Inferior."

"My brethren, if you want to be better than women, you must do better works than they, otherwise what does it profit us if women do better works and go to paradise while we go to hell?"

We are men and we act worse. I see that wherever I travel and teach and speak a word about women, they immediately listen to me and discard their earrings and rings as superfluous. I see them rush to confession.


In CHRIST
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« Reply #84 on: November 30, 2007, 12:42:14 AM »

For the record (I'm not going to do any quoting because this is just my response to the ongoing topics):

I have a degree from the seminary as well as training in both Byzantine music and Western music.  I am often at the chantstand and have read the Epistle more times than I can count, at the Seminary, no less, as directed by not only my spiritual father and the other priests, but the chanter (who happens to be the archon protopsalti for the entire Archdiocese of America- arguably the greatest chanter alive in the world today-- can I get an amen, Cleveland??!!) Smiley  I'm not saying all this to establish myself as an authority, rather to just point out that there are different interpretations of the issue of women readers.  Obviously those instructing our priests today believe that women should be allowed to read.  And both another woman chanter and I have been complemented on several occasions on our chanting of the Epistles by His Eminence Archbishop Demetrios of America.  I have not been tonsured, nor do I expect or wish to be.  But I do know well trained (properly dressed) women who are tonsured, and I personally have no problem with it.  I DON'T wish to see women ordained to any rank of clergy, and would be shocked and appalled if it happened.  I do believe that through my experience, as related here, I have answered the two questions that Cleveland posed, which I think are an appropriate response to the OP.

As far as headcoverings...
St. Paul was writing to the Corinthians, a specific community with a specific problem- namely that the women in that community were doing something that was disturbing and unconventional with their head covering (by the way, it is debated among NT scholars as to whether this passage refers to a head covering or the way they actually wore their hair).  What they were doing was not a Jewish custom, more likely a Gentile custom.  St. Paul was doing nothing more than setting THAT PARTICULAR GROUP OF WOMEN straight.  I do believe in leaving it to the women to decide whether they are comfortable covering their heads.  I personally wear my hair appropriately for church, and do not feel that a head covering is needed to be pious and to pray.  I know women who cover their heads and wear pants to church.  What sense does that make?  St. Paul was writing in the context of a specific time, and I think to say that a woman is damned if she doesn't wear a scarf over her head is seriously underestimating the love and mercy of God, and taking St. Paul out of context. 

As far as the "issue of blood," which I know is covered thoroughly in another thread... but I'm new to this forum and since it was brought up here...
I'm always shocked by the discussion of this issue.  We so obviously know more about the female body than they did when the canons were written (as in, the blood from a woman's menstration was in utero before being flushed out!! This is not the same as an altar boy with a paper cut).  And it always floors me when people pass blanket judgements like "no woman should receive the Eucharist when on her period" or "all women should cover their heads."  My personal belief is twofold:
1. I can't imagine why anyone would want women to abstain from the Holy Eucharist because of their body's natural functions, as though those functions are something bad, rather than God's perfect creation.
2.  It is SO TOTALLY between me and my spiritual father!!!!!!!!!!!!!

As always, I pray I'm not offending...  Please forgive me if I am.
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« Reply #85 on: November 30, 2007, 01:04:26 AM »

The Issue of Blood is important and yes it does have something to do with the "archaich" Jewish tradition.  It is an Orthodox Tradition (large T) as well.

Why do new mothers need to be churched after having a baby?  Why cant she come to church right after having the child?  Why, the issue of Blood.  Now, I will admit that I am not familiar with all the parameters of why the Blood issue is so important but it is Orthodox and I feel all should comply with it.  Unless I am in error, which I believe I am not, the blood issue will even prevent a wounded priest from celebrating Liturgy.

For God's sake, are we talking about menstruation AGAIN?

In all these years of debating this issue on this forum I have yet to get a half way (or even 1/100th of the way) intelligeble answer from you traditionalists on one question I have on the matter (go figure), perhaps I'll get one now (though I doubt it):

How long does it take the body and blood of Christ to be sufficiently deluded so that it's ok for one to bleed? Good theology would insist that it sanctifies everything it touches, so if you consume the Eucharist and prick your finger 80 years later, it should be no different than than consuming it while bleeding on the ground (on, I don't know, say a battlefield, yes Priests will give communion to the dying in war, and a fair number of those deaths are pretty bloody).

The theology of this argument is abhorent (heretical?) and the reasoning is ridiculous, so why are people still making it? I guess as Christians we do have a history of people advocating absurd theology, but couldn't you find a better way to be a traditionalist?
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« Reply #86 on: November 30, 2007, 01:15:35 AM »

The Issue of Blood is important and yes it does have something to do with the "archaich" Jewish tradition. 

I see. So as far as you are concerned, we should still be circumcising our baby boys, we should never eat pork, we should never do any work beginning Friday evening....oh, and especially, I would presume, keep women in a separate room while they are menstruating so you are not defiled by having contact with them, etc., etc..... Funny, I thought that on Great and Holy Friday the Church paraphrases St. Paul and proclaims "by your precious blood you have redeemed us from the curse of the law."   The point is that the coming of Christ in the flesh has fulfilled the law, but it has also completely supplanted it.  He has "brought us up to heaven, and has endowed us with (his) Kingdom which is yet to come." (From the anaphora of the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom.)  Christ brings a radical newness in proclaiming the advent of the Kingdom.  We live in that same apostolic age when people marvelled at Christ healing and casting out demons and responded in astonishment:  "What is this?  A new teaching!  Even the unclean spirits are subject to him!.....We have never seen anything like this before!"  Jewish custom has nothing to do with Holy Tradition, which is the life of the Holy Spirit in the Church, and not "custom" at all.

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It is an Orthodox Tradition (large T) as well.

No, it isn't, for reasons given above.  Who told you this, if I might ask?

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Why do new mothers need to be churched after having a baby?  Why cant she come to church right after having the child?  Why, the issue of Blood.

I don't know where this service of "re-admittance" to the Church comes from.  I am, however, willing to bet that it was at least indirectly inspired by a period of dangerous judaisation in the 11th century that has obscured the meaning of Tradition in the Church.  I believe that the Church is inerrant in her essence, but I have seen quite a few examples of degenerate liturgical practices that do not effect the overall inerrancy of the Church that endure to the present day (please don't get me started on that Wink) and I would posit that this is one of them.  Don't take my word for it.  How about this prayer from the Book of Needs? (Abridged version.  St. Tikhon's Seminary Press, 2002.)   It basically blames the woman to whom the misfortune happened for having a miscarriage!!!:

"O Master, Lord our God, Who was born of the Holy Theotokos and Ever-virgin Mary, and Who, as an infant, lay in the manger: According to Your great mercy, be merciful to Your servant, N., who is in sin, having been involved in the loss of a life, whether voluntary or involuntary, for she has miscarried that which was conceived in her.  Forgive her transgressions, both voluntary and involuntary, and protect her from every snare of the Devil.  Cleanse her stain and heal her infirmities.  And grant to her, O Lover of Mankind, health and strength of soul and body.  Guard her with a shining Angel from all assaults of the unseen demons; Yea, O Lord, from sickness and infirmity.  Purify her from bodily uncleanness and the various troubles within her womb.  By Your many mercies lead her up in humbled body from the bed on which she lies.  For we all have been born in sins and transgressions, and all of us are defiled in Your sight, O Lord.  Therefore, with fear we cry out and say: look down from heaven and behold the feebleness of us who are condemned.  Forgive this, Your servant, N., who is in sin, having been involved in the loss of a life, whether voluntary or involuntary, for she has miscarried that which was conceived in her.  And, according to Your great mercy as the Good God Who loves mankind, be merciful and forgive all those who are here present and who have touched her.  For You alone have the power to remit sins and transgressions, through the prayers of Your Most-pure Mother and of all the Saints.  
     For to You is due all glory, honour and worship, together with the Father and the Holy Spirit, now and ever and unto ages of ages.  Amen."

Would you feel comfortable having this prayer read over your wife after the two of you had endured the terrible tragedy of having lost a child?  To me, this smacks of misogyny and borders on abuse.  But according to some, since it is a current part of our service books, it must be okay, because nothing degenerate or wrong could ever possibly enter the liturgical life of the Church.  No doubt you noted the reference to "cleansing" the woman of her "uncleanness", similar to what one finds in the churching prayers.  In additon there are prayers for "forgiveness" for those who have "touched" the woman in question, as if we still live in times when touching menstruating women or injured people or corpses etc. renders us ritually impure!  I submit that both the churching prayers and this prayer are inspired by the same judaising tendency that waxes and wanes in the Church periodically, but is completely foreign to Holy Tradition.  

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....the blood issue will even prevent a wounded priest from celebrating Liturgy.

I reject this argument for the same reasons I gave above.  
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« Reply #87 on: November 30, 2007, 01:22:42 AM »

The issue is being respectful to the body and blood of Christ, not trying to legalistically define how long it remains in the bloodstream.  I would say that one should be careful the day they commune; if that day they cut themselves, they should wipe the blood and burn that rag. After a day, then it's not an issue. The point of a day is simply to allow some time to have passed. Whether some particle is there in the blood still or not is not the point of the discussion.

As far as the 80 years example, while I am sure that sounds good to GisC as he is writing it, I hate to say it but it doesn't sound so great and convincing to me as I read it. Sorry buddy.  The Eucharist I would say dissipates into the natural elements when it is no longer recognizable as such, because it has moved outside of its function. One of course does not dispense of the water that is used to clean the vessels on a place where people walk, out of respect, but to say it is "in" that area of ground more than "other" areas is a bit absurd and again, missing the point.

As someone so immersed in secular notions of respect and culture, you should be amenable to these rituals of respect. Smiley
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« Reply #88 on: November 30, 2007, 01:25:19 AM »

I would urge posters not to discuss menstruation. I mean come on.
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« Reply #89 on: November 30, 2007, 01:37:59 AM »

I am simply not going to argue in detail with my friend Pravoslavbob since we have very different presumptions.  However, I would like to ask you a general question about your methodology if you don't mind.  Don't you think that perhaps you are creating a position, namely, that anything that has to do with blood is a Judaizing tendency, and as you say, "completely foreign to Holy Tradition" and then rejecting anything in history contrary to your position in a blanket fashion?

I would submit that the evidence that there is a canon against eating blood in meat, along with the fact that priests are not supposed to celebrate liturgy while bleeding (whether you reject the idea or not does not change the fact that this has been the understanding of just about every priest I know including my own bishop) or the fact that we are not the only "apostolic" church where one might hear of the rule concerning communing while menstruating (which, I am simply not going to get into the rights or wrongs of, again, I mean that is not really a topic for the forum since it's a pastoral issue, but I am just pointing out we are not solo in having that idea), leads me to believe that you might just be ignoring some of the very evidence that contradicts your position. Would you therefore say that all of the above is just judaizing stuff that crept in and got past all those Holy Fathers? And is there any historical evidence (I am not demanding a citation, I'll take your word for it) or modern scholarly work (I would be quite interested in that) that addresses this judaizing tendency hypothesis?
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« Reply #90 on: November 30, 2007, 01:42:27 AM »

The issue is being respectful to the body and blood of Christ, not trying to legalistically define how long it remains in the bloodstream.  I would say that one should be careful the day they commune; if that day they cut themselves, they should wipe the blood and burn that rag. After a day, then it's not an issue. The point of a day is simply to allow some time to have passed. Whether some particle is there in the blood still or not is not the point of the discussion.

So it takes about, say, 12 hours for the presence of Christ to become sufficiently diluted by our biological functions that the issue becomes moot? Well, that's probably the straightest answer I've gotten yet, but still no sound science or theology for the position. Though I guess a scientific argument of sorts could be made if the eucharist is reduced to its physical nature, but even then, the molecules will integrate themselves into cells in the body and will last far longer than a single day...but if we're talking about the Eucharist in a spiritual sense, is it really good theology to say the body and blood of the God-Man can ever be said to be eliminated from our bodies?

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As far as the 80 years example, while I am sure that sounds good to GisC as he is writing it, I hate to say it but it doesn't sound so great and convincing to me as I read it. Sorry buddy.  The Eucharist I would say dissipates into the natural elements when it is no longer recognizable as such, because it has moved outside of its function. One of course does not dispense of the water that is used to clean the vessels on a place where people walk, out of respect, but to say it is "in" that area of ground more than "other" areas is a bit absurd and again, missing the point.

As someone so immersed in secular notions of respect and culture, you should be amenable to these rituals of respect. Smiley

So in the end it's simply a matter of cultural respect? Don't get me wrong, I can look at certain cultural practices and say 'that's quaint, how nice'...but I fear that when culture becomes a device for oppression and misogyny I can no longer respect the practice. Perhaps it's time to take a stand and say that this particular cultural custom has far outlived its usefulness.

I would urge posters not to discuss menstruation. I mean come on.

Are you getting squirmish as a result of your cultural norms. Wink
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« Reply #91 on: November 30, 2007, 01:43:04 AM »

For the record, I don't really see the problem with women chanting in Church at all. I prefer Greek psalti style but a well formed choir is fine in my book, especially having a male and female choir alternate, I think that is cool.  Reading the epistle, I don't really see why that is necessary to introduce though.
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« Reply #92 on: November 30, 2007, 02:00:59 AM »

To start off, I don't really feel comfortable discussing any of this because I am simply content to pass down the practice that I have received and which I do not see as offensive or causing any great consternation. But, since a response is requested, I will carry on to the best of my feeble ability.

So it takes about, say, 12 hours for the presence of Christ to become sufficiently diluted by our biological functions that the issue becomes moot? Well, that's probably the straightest answer I've gotten yet, but still no sound science or theology for the position. Though I guess a scientific argument of sorts could be made if the eucharist is reduced to its physical nature, but even then, the molecules will integrate themselves into cells in the body and will last far longer than a single day...but if we're talking about the Eucharist in a spiritual sense, is it really good theology to say the body and blood of the God-Man can ever be said to be eliminated from our bodies?

I am unconcerned with science as there is no "scientific evidence" to support the Real Presence, nor do I think science could ever uncover the Real Presence since science deals with fallen nature and the Holy Eucharist is unfallen and deified; so really these are spiritual concerns, in the "fifth" or "sixth" dimension if you will Wink

Theologically, it seems to me the elements disperse into our bodies and are infused in us as "grace." After about a day, we have sinned enough for the grace to have found its way out. We can sadly in our fallen state only maintain that high level of communion with God for so long. I personally believe that very soon after the elements disperse in our bloodstream as grace they begin to go away and are soon gone because of our sinfulness and because they are no longer recognizable as the elements (and we have no reason to venerate communion outside of liturgy per se, but rather only have it in the context of the liturgy) but giving it a day seems the responsible thing to do "just in case."

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So in the end it's simply a matter of cultural respect? Don't get me wrong, I can look at certain cultural practices and say 'that's quaint, how nice'...but I fear that when culture becomes a device for oppression and misogyny I can no longer respect the practice. Perhaps it's time to take a stand and say that this particular cultural custom has far outlived its usefulness.

Well I do believe that it is real, and not just a cultural thing, and I do believe that the ground for instance that that water goes into is sanctified. But it disperses at some point, and I don't see the point of questioning how long or how far it goes.  that just seems like a dumb thing to do. So it seems better to just be respectful and leave it at that. I am not going to address the menstruation issue because I think it is distasteful to talk about.

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Are you getting squirmish as a result of your cultural norms. Wink

It's not that *I* am getting squirmish but we are in mixed company and I must confess that many are sensitive to this issue and I would prefer not to offend anyone's sensibilities on what is essentially a pastoral issue.
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« Reply #93 on: November 30, 2007, 02:16:05 AM »

I am simply not going to argue in detail with my friend Pravoslavbob since we have very different presumptions.  However, I would like to ask you a general question about your methodology if you don't mind.  Don't you think that perhaps you are creating a position, namely, that anything that has to do with blood is a Judaizing tendency, and as you say, "completely foreign to Holy Tradition" and then rejecting anything in history contrary to your position in a blanket fashion?

I would certainly be willing to consider anything you might want to suggest that I should consult that might change my mind about some of the things I have posted, without being polemical about it at all.

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I would submit that the evidence that there is a canon against eating blood in meat,

I guess this would depend on the context, time and place of the canon etc.

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along with the fact that priests are not supposed to celebrate liturgy while bleeding (whether you reject the idea or not does not change the fact that this has been the understanding of just about every priest I know including my own bishop)

Just to clarify matters, I presume you mean by "bleeding" not active bleeding, but bleeding which has been recently staunched.  Of course, if a preist had any kind of bodily fluid actively emanating from him I would say that he should not celebrate Liturgy because of the danger of getting it on holy things, which would not be reverent or proper.

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or the fact that we are not the only "apostolic" church where one might hear of the rule concerning communing while menstruating (which, I am simply not going to get into the rights or wrongs of, again, I mean that is not really a topic for the forum since it's a pastoral issue, but I am just pointing out we are not solo in having that idea),

I don't think it is a pastoral issue (unless a particular woman has issues with it).  Public prayers of the Church refer to things concerning the womb.  However, if you think it is a pastoral question, I am more than happy to not discuss it.

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leads me to believe that you might just be ignoring some of the very evidence that contradicts your position. Would you therefore say that all of the above is just judaizing stuff that crept in and got past all those Holy Fathers?

In terms of Church practice, my answer would be yes, as far as I can tell up to this point.  As you are aware, many things became regular practices in church despite certain Fathers being opposed to them.  For example: extremely infrequent communion.  You yourself referred to this practice as "a great abuse" in one of your posts a couple of years ago.  And yet, entire Orthodox nations see this practice as normative and desirable amongst the laity.  But I am still confident that this practice is wrong.  But again, if you want to PM me with some ideas on things to read, I am perfectly open to considering other points of view that I may have missed or unfairly dismissed.  In terms of the canon you site, as I intimated earlier, I would like to know more about it.

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And is there any historical evidence (I am not demanding a citation, I'll take your word for it) or modern scholarly work (I would be quite interested in that) that addresses this judaizing tendency hypothesis?

There is definitely modern scholarly work that points to this tendency, and I believe historical evidence as well.  I'm afraid you'll have to search for it yourself for now, as the majority of my books are (hopefully temporarily!) in storage.
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« Reply #94 on: November 30, 2007, 02:24:24 AM »

It's not that *I* am getting squirmish but we are in mixed company and I must confess that many are sensitive to this issue and I would prefer not to offend anyone's sensibilities on what is essentially a pastoral issue.

Okay, I think I understand more now what you mean by referring to this as being a pastoral issue.
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« Reply #95 on: November 30, 2007, 02:30:21 AM »

Reading the epistle, I don't really see why that is necessary to introduce though.

You might not have this in the GOC, but in many Orthodox jurisdictions this genie has long escaped from the bottle, so to speak, and it is not a question of introducing it, since it must have been around for quite some time already. 

As an aside that might be related: can you tell me if, in the Greek Church, when two deacons are serving at liturgy, the second deacon reads the epistle?  This is the case amongst many if not all Slavs.
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« Reply #96 on: November 30, 2007, 02:32:37 AM »

I'll try to respond tomorrow. whew, time for bed. thanks for your input.
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« Reply #97 on: November 30, 2007, 04:59:11 AM »

Ok then il cut the bull.


I am on a forum where 99.9% of the members are Orthodox Christians.

There is a young women who likes to teach me and also others about the church and the faith.

When she does this directly to me ,could you rightfully call me a  'Pig'  if i were to assume that this women should not be teaching me ,as i refer to 1 Timothy 2:11-16 which reads as follows-

"A woman should learn in quietness and full submission.I do not permit a women to teach or to have authority over a man;she must be silent.For Adam was formed first,then Eve.
And Adam was not the one decieved;it was the woman who was decieved and became a sinner.
But women will be kept safe through childbirth,if they continue in faith,love and holiness with propriety."


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« Reply #98 on: November 30, 2007, 05:13:17 AM »

When she does this directly to me ,could you rightfully call me a  'Pig'  if i were to assume that this women should not be teaching me

No, I'd ask you to babysit my small children. Roll Eyes
You are of course completely free to be an Islamist nutjob, just don't expect the rest of us to join you.
Avert your eyes lest you fall into temptation, for this must surely be your ideal woman:

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« Reply #99 on: November 30, 2007, 05:24:30 AM »

Thanks mate

I dont know ,maybe St Pauls speaking in parables.
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« Reply #100 on: November 30, 2007, 05:28:43 AM »

I dont know ,maybe St Pauls speaking in parables.
Or may be, like everyone has tried to tell you on this thread, he is speaking in a specific time to a specific culture.
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« Reply #101 on: November 30, 2007, 05:53:49 AM »

Thank you for your reply,

I feel that if St Paul being an ambassador of Christ passes on this message to his brothers ,then in turn those brothers will keep those instructions,and keep passing them on throughout the ages to the Christians hoping that we can keep hold to these instructions and traditions,how can these instructions reach a point in time where they are ignored or forgotten or un heeded to.

Whats the difference between a Christian back then listening to St Paul say this personally to them   compared to A Christian who hears and reads this same message in his letters today?

If the New Testament doesnt relate to us today ,then what good is it to us?

We might as well not read it or just take it elsewhere from our home.

How can it be for that specific time and not for all time?

When and how does this message become invalid at a particular point in time?


Thank you
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« Reply #102 on: November 30, 2007, 05:59:39 AM »

Or may be, like everyone has tried to tell you on this thread, he is speaking in a specific time to a specific culture.
Well, what about I Cor 6:9  Is that also speaking in a specific time to a specific culture, so that today, in our modern and enlightened world, we can forget about condemning what is mentioned there?
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« Reply #103 on: November 30, 2007, 06:25:42 AM »

Well, what about I Cor 6:9  Is that also speaking in a specific time to a specific culture, so that today, in our modern and enlightened world, we can forget about condemning what is mentioned there?
I wish people would take the trouble to read threads before asking the same questions that were already answered in them (and other threads as well).
No, stanley123. I'm not going to do your homework for you.
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« Reply #104 on: November 30, 2007, 07:08:54 AM »

I wish people would take the trouble to read threads before asking the same questions that were already answered in them (and other threads as well).
No, stanley123. I'm not going to do your homework for you.
Basically, the point is that if you start ruling out certain passages in the Bible, saying that they are relevant only to a certain culture, then it leaves open the door to other groups to rule out what they want. And everyone know that this is being done today more than before by the gay and lesbian movement.
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« Reply #105 on: November 30, 2007, 07:17:36 AM »

Basically, the point is that if you start ruling out certain passages in the Bible,
Who has ruled them out?
And while we're at it, when was the last time you attended a Love Feast (Agape)? The Church is clearly directed to do so in the Epistles- so why don't you celebrate it? How dare you "rule out certain passages from the Bible"?

And everyone know that this is being done today more than before by the gay and lesbian movement.
I wonder why it is that women are always seen as the "gatekeepers" of social morals? It as if women not covering their heads in Church will bring down civilization. If our civilization is that fragile, then it deserves to die.
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« Reply #106 on: November 30, 2007, 07:23:21 AM »

Who has ruled them out?

My impression was that a strict interpretation as applicable to today's world of 1Cor 11, was being ruled out because it was alleged that St. Paul was speaking to a particular culture at a particular time? Was I wrong in this impression?
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« Reply #107 on: November 30, 2007, 07:38:43 AM »

My impression was that a strict interpretation as applicable to today's world of 1Cor 11, was being ruled out because it was alleged that St. Paul was speaking to a particular culture at a particular time? Was I wrong in this impression?
And my impression is that by the same standard, you have ruled out the passages in the very same Epistle (1 Cor. 11: 20-34) related to the Agape. Why is the Agape not practiced any more excerpt by a few Protestants and only once a year by the Orthodox on Pascha? Originally, it was celebrated with every Eucharist, and was integral feature of Church life. So it seems that this passage too was meant for a specific time and culture, because if it is not and is "eternal", then you and I are both guilty of omission by not celebrating the Agape.
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« Reply #108 on: November 30, 2007, 07:55:01 AM »

And my impression is that by the same standard, you have ruled out the passages in the very same Epistle (1 Cor. 11: 20-34) related to the Agape. Why is the Agape not practiced any more excerpt by a few Protestants and only once a year by the Orthodox on Pascha? Originally, it was celebrated with every Eucharist, and was integral feature of Church life. So it seems that this passage too was meant for a specific time and culture, because if it is not and is "eternal", then you and I are both guilty of omission by not celebrating the Agape.
I don't remember ever saying that I advise against 1Cor 11 20-34. In fact, I mentioned in a different thread that a so-called paraliturgical Catholic devotion actually involved assisting at the Sacrifice of the Mass, which is in accord with my reading of 1Cor 11:23-29.
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« Reply #109 on: November 30, 2007, 08:37:00 AM »

I don't remember ever saying that I advise against 1Cor 11 20-34. In fact, I mentioned in a different thread that a so-called paraliturgical Catholic devotion actually involved assisting at the Sacrifice of the Mass, which is in accord with my reading of 1Cor 11:23-29.
We obviously need a thread about the Agape to explain it. In the meantime, here is some information about the Agape from a source you are more likely to accept: The Catholic Encyclopaedia:


Quote
"This is what was known afterwards as the Liturgy of the Catechumens. Then followed the Eucharist, at which only the baptized were present. Two other elements of the service in the earliest time soon disappeared. One was the Love-feast (agape) that came just before the Eucharist; the other was the spiritual exercises, in which people were moved by the Holy Ghost to prophesy,"
Source.

"The Lord's Supper" which St. Paul is describing in 1Cor 11 20-34 was the Liturgy which included the Eucharist and the Agape (Love Feast). When St. Paul complains that at "The Lord's Supper":
"one takes his own supper ahead of others; and one is hungry and another is drunk." (1Cor 11:21) and
"Therefore, my brethren, when you come together to eat, wait for one another. But if anyone is hungry, let him eat at home, lest you come together for judgment."(1Cor 11:33-34)
what he is talking about is the Agape part of the Lord's Supper, which was a commonly shared meal in the Liturgy to which each of the Faithful would bring food. This part of the Lord's Supper has been dropped. In the Orthodox Church, we only celebrate it once a year on Pascha.
So do you see the problem? A practice described in the same epistle which you want to say is a "timeless command" has in fact been dropped in our time. If the practice of the Agape (which was an original part of the Christian Liturgy) is not timeless, then what makes you so sure that another part of the same Epistle is timeless? It's not a matter of "ruling things out of the bible" as you suggest, its a matter of the same Spirit Who guided the Church then is guiding it today, in a different time and place.
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« Reply #110 on: November 30, 2007, 08:45:15 AM »

We obviously need a thread about the Agape to explain it. In the meantime, here is some information about the Agape from a source you are more likely to accept: The Catholic Encyclopaedia:


"The Lord's Supper" which St. Paul is describing in 1Cor 11 20-34 was the Liturgy which included the Eucharist and the Agape (Love Feast). When St. Paul complains that at "The Lord's Supper":
"one takes his own supper ahead of others; and one is hungry and another is drunk." (1Cor 11:21) and
"Therefore, my brethren, when you come together to eat, wait for one another. But if anyone is hungry, let him eat at home, lest you come together for judgment."(1Cor 11:33-34)
what he is talking about is the Agape part of the Lord's Supper, which was a commonly shared meal in the Liturgy to which each of the Faithful would bring food. This part of the Lord's Supper has been dropped. In the Orthodox Church, we only celebrate it once a year on Pascha.

Do we? I was not aware of that. I have never known of a common meal with the members of my parish.
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« Reply #111 on: November 30, 2007, 09:07:23 AM »

Do we? I was not aware of that. I have never known of a common meal with the members of my parish.
The Agape Service takes place in the Afternoon of the Sunday of Pascha. The Gospel of the Empty Tomb (John 20:19-25) is read in as many languages as possible, and many churches hold their common paschal meal straight after it.
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« Reply #112 on: November 30, 2007, 09:32:14 AM »

The Agape Service takes place in the Afternoon of the Sunday of Pascha. The Gospel of the Empty Tomb (John 20:19-25) is read in as many languages as possible, and many churches hold their common paschal meal straight after it.

Right, I guess the bit about the many languages does not happen in Greece.  As far as the common paschal meal goes, judging by the fact that the people I know, all spend Easter Sunday with family and friends at home, the only time we all spend in church together is the Resurrection liturgy at midnight between Holy Saturday and Easter Sunday. I have meanwhile sent a SMS to a cousin who lives in Greece to ask whether they do have Agape in her parish as I know I could be missing something. I´ll let you know.

Sorry for deviating the thread a tiny bit. Otherwise I have no contribution to make to the OP, so I retire. Undecided
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« Reply #113 on: November 30, 2007, 09:53:13 AM »

Right, I guess the bit about the many languages does not happen in Greece.
Actually, it does.
The Priest's Service Book, as well as The Gospel Book used in the Church has the Gospel Reading phonetically written in Greek in many languages.
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« Reply #114 on: November 30, 2007, 10:15:23 AM »


As far as headcoverings...
St. Paul was writing to the Corinthians, a specific community with a specific problem- namely that the women in that community were doing something that was disturbing and unconventional with their head covering (by the way, it is debated among NT scholars as to whether this passage refers to a head covering or the way they actually wore their hair).  What they were doing was not a Jewish custom, more likely a Gentile custom.  St. Paul was doing nothing more than setting THAT PARTICULAR GROUP OF WOMEN straight.  I do believe in leaving it to the women to decide whether they are comfortable covering their heads.  I personally wear my hair appropriately for church, and do not feel that a head covering is needed to be pious and to pray.  I know women who cover their heads and wear pants to church.  What sense does that make?  St. Paul was writing in the context of a specific time, and I think to say that a woman is damned if she doesn't wear a scarf over her head is seriously underestimating the love and mercy of God, and taking St. Paul out of context. 

2.  It is SO TOTALLY between me and my spiritual father!!!!!!!!!!!!!

As always, I pray I'm not offending...  Please forgive me if I am.

God bless !

I want to add:

I think it is clear that St. Paul meant hair covering in the strict sense and to all christian women- it was a jewish tradition and also christian women covered their hair. We have writings of the Fathers speaking about covering and also from the Life of the Saints ( I think St. Matrona of Constantinopel for example)

It is not a "slavonic" thing it was also practised in greece ( and still is in some parishes more traditional) Romania, Serbia......and other countries..

I would say it is not only a personal thing ( perhaps at home) but not in the parish.

IN CHRIST
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« Reply #115 on: November 30, 2007, 11:05:00 AM »

Ok then il cut the bull.


I am on a forum where 99.9% of the members are Orthodox Christians.

There is a young women who likes to teach me and also others about the church and the faith.

When she does this directly to me ,could you rightfully call me a  'Pig'  if i were to assume that this women should not be teaching me ,as i refer to 1 Timothy 2:11-16 which reads as follows-
Maybe you just don't like ANYONE teaching you, and the teacher's female gender merely gives you something against which you can (mis)quote Scripture as an excuse to not submit.
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« Reply #116 on: November 30, 2007, 11:13:48 AM »

Maybe you just don't like ANYONE teaching you, and the teacher's female gender merely gives you something against which you can (mis)quote Scripture as an excuse to not submit.

Good point. I wondered the same thing.  Is it the teacher or the teaching that Lightspeed really finds objectionable.

I have often found that I am more likely to try to discredit the teacher when one or both of the following is true:

* The teaching is difficult/uncomfortable, meaning that I must admit that I am wrong and make big changes.
* My pride gets in the way and I am bothered by someone knowing more than me.

In either case it is an issue of pride. 

I believe, sadly, that many cases where a man is using this particular scripture to avoid paying attention to the words/counsel of a woman are an issue of pride more than of following the Scriptures.  It just so happens that these men have a good, ready to be misused quote that can be easily utilized.
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« Reply #117 on: November 30, 2007, 12:32:40 PM »

 Sorry, but I don't see why I should retract what I have said above. First of all, the tradition of women wearing headcovering in Church held for almost 2000 years but then, at least in Catholicism in the west, was not adhered to after Vatican II. Various early Church fathers, including Hermas and  Clement of Alexandria recommended that women wear headcovering. For example, according to St. John Chrysostom: "... the man he compels not to be always uncovered, but only when he prays ... But the woman he commands to be at all times covered ... [he] also proceeded to say, "for it is one and the same thing as if she were shaven." But if to be shaven is always dishonorable, it is plain too that being uncovered is always a reproach. And not even with this only was he content, but added again, saying, "The woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head, because of the angels." He signifies that not only at the time of prayer but also continually, she ought to be covered."(Homilies on First Corinthians, Homily 26, ver. 4) According to St. Jerome: "It is usual in the monasteries of Egypt and Syria for virgins and widows who have vowed themselves to God and have renounced the world and have trodden under foot its pleasures, to ask the mothers of their communities to cut their hair; not that afterwards they go about with heads uncovered in defiance of the apostle's command, for they wear a close-fitting cap and a veil."(Letter 147, 5) In other words, the veiling of women is a command of the Apostles. Also, early Christian art shows women wearing headcovering. In both the Orthodox tradition and in the Catholic tradition, the Mother of God is depicted as wearing headcovering. Catholic women are called to imitate the Mother of God in her humility. According to 2 Thessalonians 2:15, "So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us." According to Paul: "But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ" (11:3) So Paul grounds his reasoning in the teaching of the original creation. It is not a cultural issue, but rather a creational one. Another point against the cultural interpretation is that Paul argues for the necessity of headcovering "because of the angels."
The agape issue is for another thread, but anyway, we have it at many of our Churches regularly and I don't see where the agape is commanded with the same force of command and tradition as women wearing headcovering. In fact, at the local Old Calendar Greek Orthodox Church in our area, women always wear headcovering at the Divine Liturgy. And after each Divine Liturgy, there is an agape like celebration for everyone in the congregation.
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« Reply #118 on: November 30, 2007, 12:52:03 PM »

Just a nit-pick about terminology.  The proper term for the laity who assist in the distribution of the Holy Eucharist is, Extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion. 

Eucharistic Ministers, are technically speaking, priests, who are the "Ordinary Ministers" of the Eucharist.

Interesting. Do you have an official source? I never realized this. I know many female Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion, including one who was ordained as one when in High School.
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« Reply #119 on: November 30, 2007, 01:23:49 PM »

Interesting. Do you have an official source? I never realized this. I know many female Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion, including one who was ordained as one when in High School.

Yes.  The source is provided below but in short the sources for this clarification of terms are both the General Instruction of the Roman Missal and Redemptionis sacramentum (RS).

Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion are not "ordained."  They may be deputed for the purpose of serving as an EMHC but they are not ordained.

Links:
  Link #1 - USCCB
  Link #2 - EWTN

Quote
Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion may be used when the number of Ordinary Ministers of Holy Communion (bishops, priests and deacons) is inadequate.

    GIRM 162. The priest may be assisted in the distribution of Communion by other priests who happen to be present. If such priests are not present and there is a very large number of communicants, the priest may call upon extraordinary ministers to assist him, e.g., duly instituted acolytes or even other faithful who have been deputed for this purpose. In case of necessity, the priest may depute suitable faithful for this single occasion.

    RS 88 Only when there is a necessity may extraordinary ministers assist the Priest celebrant in accordance with the norm of law.

The quote above is from the EWTN page and discusses both the Ordinary Ministers of Holy Communion (defined therein as bishops, priests and deacons) and Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion.  The document from EWTN quotes both the General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM) and Redemptionis sacramentum (RS).
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« Reply #120 on: November 30, 2007, 02:08:32 PM »

The quote above is from the EWTN page and discusses both the Ordinary Ministers of Holy Communion (defined therein as bishops, priests and deacons) and Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion.  The document from EWTN quotes both the General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM) and Redemptionis sacramentum (RS).
The term extraordinary in ordinary English means going beyond what is usual or regular. However, it is by no means unusual to see women serving Holy Communion at the Catholic Church in our area. They do it at just about every Mass on every Sunday.
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« Reply #121 on: November 30, 2007, 02:15:24 PM »

The term extraordinary in ordinary English means going beyond what is usual or regular. However, it is by no means unusual to see women serving Holy Communion at the Catholic Church in our area. They do it at just about every Mass on every Sunday.

While true in that sense, what is "extraordinary" is for those who are not ordained ministers to be distributing communion, and my hypothesis is that this is the context for the use of the word.
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« Reply #122 on: November 30, 2007, 02:38:53 PM »

The term extraordinary in ordinary English means going beyond what is usual or regular. However, it is by no means unusual to see women serving Holy Communion at the Catholic Church in our area. They do it at just about every Mass on every Sunday.

Quote from: cleveland
While true in that sense, what is "extraordinary" is for those who are not ordained ministers to be distributing communion, and my hypothesis is that this is the context for the use of the word.

Cleveland is correct.  An Ordinary in ecclesiastical language, denotes any person possessing or exercising ordinary jurisdiction.  In this context "Ordinary Minister" denotes those ordained and thus possessing and exercising the ordinary jurisdiction to confect and distribute the Sacrament of Holy Communion. 

Extraordinary means those persons granted special permission to function in a specific capacity.  Thus Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion.

Just like the Novus Ordo is the ordinary liturgy and the traditional Latin Mass is the extraordinary.  It isn't used in the general context of "usual" and "unusual."

The bishops, priest and deacons are the Ordinary Ministers.  Anyone else is an Extraordinary Minister. 

That they are "ordinarily" seen to be doing so is at best and overuse and at worst an abuse of the permission for their usage.
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« Reply #123 on: November 30, 2007, 02:58:38 PM »

Just take the Catholic fora approach as use only "EM" - then all the liberals are happy because they read it as Eucharistic minister and all the conservatives are happy because they read extraordinary minister.  Everybody wins. 
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« Reply #124 on: November 30, 2007, 03:02:15 PM »

Hmmmm...maybe we should use "OC" for "Orthodox Calendar"...naw  Smiley
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« Reply #125 on: November 30, 2007, 03:24:29 PM »

Ok then il cut the bull.


I am on a forum where 99.9% of the members are Orthodox Christians.

There is a young women who likes to teach me and also others about the church and the faith.

Some questions:

Is what she is "teaching" true? 

Is it teaching as with a class or is it making points of information/knowledge as part of a discussion?

Is it correcting mistakes?

How do you know she "likes to teach"?  Could it be part of the discussion pattern?


Quote
When she does this directly to me ,could you rightfully call me a  'Pig'  if i were to assume that this women should not be teaching me ,as i refer to 1 Timothy 2:11-16 which reads as follows-

How does she do this "directly"?  By name? 

Is she giving information that you disagree with or did not know?

How do you feel with males 'teach' you?  What about an older woman?  Is she younger then you are?

And to reiterate:  Is what she 'teaches' true or factual?

As to your question, it would be rude to call you a "pig".  But by what authority would you dictate to her, to, in effect, tell her to shut up?  What makes your interpretation or use of the Scriptures the correct one to apply to persons  not under your control?

Ebor
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« Reply #126 on: November 30, 2007, 03:46:32 PM »

Sorry, but I don't see why I should retract what I have said above. First of all, the tradition of women wearing headcovering in Church held for almost 2000 years but then, at least in Catholicism in the west, was not adhered to after Vatican II.

If I may make a suggestion, the history of clothing and headgear and how it is done in different cultures can be a useful angle to look at some customs.  Clothing has useful and practical purposes as well as ritual meanings.  In times and places where washing hair was not easily done (unlike many places today with ready made shampoos and hot water) covering the hair was helpful. Climate also applies with hats/scarves/hoods keeping one warmer in cooler and wetter climates while protecting one from the sun in hotter places.

In various cultures including Jewish ones children and maidens did *not* cover their hair.  That was the sign of a married woman, so not all women would be required to wear a hat or scarf.

Quote
In both the Orthodox tradition and in the Catholic tradition, the Mother of God is depicted as wearing headcovering.

Not in all depictions or icons. Many, but not all, and if that is how St. Mary the Virgin dressed as a married Jewish woman in her time on Earth, then it is an accurate portrayal.

Quote
"But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ" (11:3) So Paul grounds his reasoning in the teaching of the original creation. It is not a cultural issue, but rather a creational one. Another point against the cultural interpretation is that Paul argues for the necessity of headcovering "because of the angels."

While the passage reads that the head of every man is Christ, it does not say that the head of every woman is every man.  And may I ask what you think the angels have to do with female hair?

Ebor
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« Reply #127 on: November 30, 2007, 04:07:45 PM »

Tamara

How are you?

Why is your bishop recruiting women to do the ministerial work?

Forgive me but this is very unusual for me.

I am not saying that as a women you can not do the work.

Are there a shortage of qualified men in your diocese?.


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« Reply #128 on: November 30, 2007, 04:29:40 PM »

So am I.  And I am perfectly happy with having a female boss, a female church warden, etc.

You're able to look at it with some nuance and understanding.  Smiley

I have read or heard men using this passage though to say that they should not have to answer to a female boss in secular situations, including one who was in the military. That under no circumstances should a man have to do what a woman instructs them to do.   They have applied it sweepingly to All Women as being sub to all males.  Sad

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« Reply #129 on: November 30, 2007, 06:48:27 PM »

Dr. Karras often raises some legitimate points in her work.  Unfortunately, partly through the testimony and argument of other scholars I have found her to be one who has an "axe to grind" in ways that make it difficult for me to trust her objectivity.  

I agree.
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« Reply #130 on: November 30, 2007, 07:04:44 PM »

If I may, I would like to bring up something that is *required* for a person to read the Epistle:

Literacy.

In the past it was not universal or even  common in most of the world for the general population, both male and female.  Chances for education were limited and in parts of the world today they still are.  It is more common for a boy to go to school in parts of Asia and Africa then for a girl because she is expected to stay at home and do chores while the boy might have a chance for better paying work.  Even in Europe and the United States a drive for universal literacy has only been around in the last 200 years or so. 

Education was often found in monestaries and convents. Women were taught to read there and I have read of and heard nuns reading Scripture passages during worship.

What do you consider to be the date of the rise of feminism, please?  The call for rights for women is not a 20th century phenomenon and I would like to suggest that women who were not able to read or write or get other education were not able to spread develope ideas of equality either.

May I ask why the idea of a woman reading the scriptures aloud in church makes you uncomfortable, please?

Ebor
I would say the rise of feminism started in the nineteenth century and gained widespread acceptance in the twentieth.  Any example prior to 1800 couldn't be questioned.  Let me reword my question.  Can anyone give an example, outside of a monastery, of women serving in these ways?

1.  A woman reading Scripture or being a chanter goes against the plain meaning of the passage being discussed.
2.  I'm skeptical of any change in the Church's behavior that conicides with a change in culture.  That's why an example before 1800 would make me feel better.  It would show that it's not the effect of our culture influencing the Church.
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« Reply #131 on: November 30, 2007, 09:09:47 PM »

Tamara

How are you?

Why is your bishop recruiting women to do the ministerial work?

Forgive me but this is very unusual for me.

I am not saying that as a women you can not do the work.

Are there a shortage of qualified men in your diocese?.


Dear Deacon Amde,

I am doing well. He needed me to head up our women's diocesan retreats. There is so much work to be done that women must help do some of the ministry work. Men cannot possibly do it all. Our parishes would cease to function if women stopped leading the choir, chanting for services, teaching Sunday school, serving on the parish council, running spiritual book groups, leading youth groups, raising funds for charities, visiting the sick, feeding the hungry, etc, etc, etc. We are all members of the royal priesthood and we all must serve in various capacities. We will all be held accountable for how we used or did not use the talents and gifts God has given us.

sincerely, Tamara
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« Reply #132 on: December 01, 2007, 01:00:58 AM »

I have read or heard men using this passage though to say that they should not have to answer to a female boss in secular situations, including one who was in the military. That under no circumstances should a man have to do what a woman instructs them to do.   They have applied it sweepingly to All Women as being sub to all males.  Sad

Disobeying a direct command from a superior officer because she was a woman? I never heard of anything like this. I really hope for his sake that he didn't try to use that argument at his court martial, unless he has good friends at Ft. Leavenworth.
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« Reply #133 on: December 01, 2007, 01:09:25 AM »

Dear Deacon Amde,

I am doing well. He needed me to head up our women's diocesan retreats. There is so much work to be done that women must help do some of the ministry work. Men cannot possibly do it all. Our parishes would cease to function if women stopped leading the choir, chanting for services, teaching Sunday school, serving on the parish council, running spiritual book groups, leading youth groups, raising funds for charities, visiting the sick, feeding the hungry, etc, etc, etc. We are all members of the royal priesthood and we all must serve in various capacities. We will all be held accountable for how we used or did not use the talents and gifts God has given us.

sincerely, Tamara

I am happy to see this post by Tamara.  The same was true of my home parish.  I was the choir director and reader from the age of 16 in my parish, as there was NOONE else to do it.  All of the ministries Tamara mentions above would also have fallen by the wayside in my home parish, had women like myself, my sister, and my mother (a convert, no less!!  *gasp*) stepped up. 

Why is it that people say "women shouldn't chant or read... except nuns?"  What makes a nun any less of a woman!  If you are going to abide so strictly by St. Paul's words, then show me where it says that it's okay for nuns to chant and read, but not other women? 

By the way, such strict adherance to these passages WITHOUT REGARD TO CONTEXT is EXACTLY what Sola Scriptura is about.  If you disregard the context, then you cannot achieve a proper interpretation and implementation of the scripture.  I refer to my previous post regarding context...



As far as headcoverings...
St. Paul was writing to the Corinthians, a specific community with a specific problem- namely that the women in that community were doing something that was disturbing and unconventional with their head covering (by the way, it is debated among NT scholars as to whether this passage refers to a head covering or the way they actually wore their hair).  What they were doing was not a Jewish custom, more likely a Gentile custom.  St. Paul was doing nothing more than setting THAT PARTICULAR GROUP OF WOMEN straight.  I do believe in leaving it to the women to decide whether they are comfortable covering their heads.  I personally wear my hair appropriately for church, and do not feel that a head covering is needed to be pious and to pray.  I know women who cover their heads and wear pants to church.  What sense does that make?  St. Paul was writing in the context of a specific time, and I think to say that a woman is damned if she doesn't wear a scarf over her head is seriously underestimating the love and mercy of God, and taking St. Paul out of context. 

Christodoulos,
My source for the above quote is Fr. Theodore Stylianopoulos, in his class at Holy Cross Greek Orthodox School of Theology.  Fr. Ted is one of the foremost New Testament theologians and is a prolific author.  What is your source, please?
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« Reply #134 on: December 01, 2007, 01:28:25 AM »

  And may I ask what you think the angels have to do with female hair?
OK. Here's a guess. Generally, angels are known to offer the prayers of the faithful to the Lord. According to the passage: 1Cor 10: “ Therefore ought the woman to have a sign of submission on  her head, because of the angels.”  So a guess on my part is that this  refers to the fact that angels are present at sacred gatherings in Church and that they will join with the faithful with greater enthusiasm if the faithful are submissive to God. And this is shown by women wearing headcovering. For example, we read Tobias 12: 12-15:” 12 When thou didst pray with tears, and didst bury the dead, and didst leave thy dinner, and hide the dead by day in thy house, and bury them by night, I offered thy prayer to the Lord. 13 And because thou wast acceptable to God, it was necessary that temptation should prove thee. 14 And now the Lord hath sent me to heal thee, and to deliver Sara thy son's wife from the devil. 15 For I am the angel Raphael, one of the seven, who stand before the Lord.”
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« Reply #135 on: December 01, 2007, 03:44:00 AM »

I have read or heard men using this passage though to say that they should not have to answer to a female boss in secular situations, including one who was in the military. That under no circumstances should a man have to do what a woman instructs them to do.   They have applied it sweepingly to All Women as being sub to all males.  Sad
I have found that quite often those men who cite this Scripture as their reason for refusing to submit to women in authority generally refuse to submit to ANY authority, male or female.
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« Reply #136 on: December 01, 2007, 08:33:35 PM »

This was written by Paul in response to discord in a particular Church caused by a small group of women, it is perhaps not the best approach but it is the approach he thought reasonable at the time. However, applying the ancient legal maxim 'cessante ratione legis cessat ipsa lex', as this particular situation in this particular Church no longer exists, the statement is void from a legal and canonical standpoint.

Amen!  See why sola scripture is a sham?
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« Reply #137 on: December 01, 2007, 11:57:31 PM »

Amen!  See why sola scripture is a sham?

Yet this passage is used/has been used by some RC/EO whose Churches are not "sola scriptura" so it doesn't seem to me that saying that Sol.Scrip. is to blame follows.

Ebor
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« Reply #138 on: December 02, 2007, 12:01:41 AM »

I have found that quite often those men who cite this Scripture as their reason for refusing to submit to women in authority generally refuse to submit to ANY authority, male or female.

There is that.  But it's easier maybe to not 'submit' to women and seem reasonable somehow with using such things as this passage. It's "manly" or something and the reactions to such an attitude would be different then the speaker would get from, in effect, telling another male "I don't have to listen to you." Undecided


Ebor
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« Reply #139 on: December 02, 2007, 12:33:01 AM »

I would say the rise of feminism started in the nineteenth century and gained widespread acceptance in the twentieth. 

It started earlier then then that.  Mary Wollstonecraft and the "Vindications of the Rights of Women" which addressed the denial of education opportunities to women.
http://www.bartleby.com/144/

Margaret Brent of Maryland 1648, RC, landowner and attourney for Lord Baltimore as executor of his brother's will, who asked for the vote in the assembly, or rather 2 votes: 1 as a landowner in her own right and one as the executor. 
http://www.msa.md.gov/msa/speccol/sc3500/sc3520/002100/002177/html/brochure.html

There are others including a few earlier writings. But only those few women who *had the advantage of literacy and education could make their ideas known more widely.*

May I ask if you have ever read the "Declaration of Sentiments" from the Seneca Falls Conference of 1848?  It states in clear language just what some of the reasons for seeking rights for women.  Again, these women could get this put out because they could read and write and had some education, and most of them were Christians to boot.
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/Senecafalls.html

Quote
Any example prior to 1800 couldn't be questioned.  Let me reword my question.  Can anyone give an example, outside of a monastery, of women serving in these ways?


In changing your question, I would like to ask does any Christian Church/denomination count or would only RC/EO be acceptable?  if so, how common was it at that time for *lay Men* to read Scriptures in such services? Or was such a task reserved for clerics?  What countries should any examples come from?

An example was given that some women *did* do the readings in certain settings in history.  Why doesn't it happening in a monastery "count" please? 

Quote
1.  A woman reading Scripture or being a chanter goes against the plain meaning of the passage being discussed.
 

 How so if the passage refers to women "asking" if they don't know something?  "ask their husbands at home"

Quote
2.  I'm skeptical of any change in the Church's behavior that conicides with a change in culture.  That's why an example before 1800 would make me feel better.  It would show that it's not the effect of our culture influencing the Church.[/color]

If I may reiterate, prior to 1800 literacy was not Universal in America, England or other countries.  So that reduces the pool of readers. 

 Huh  How much change?  What would constitute a period of not changing?  Reading history shows that much of the time matters are not in a stasis.

I'm trying to refine a saying in my mind to the effect that "One person's "innovation" is anothers "organic development"" or something like that.  It depends on if one likes it or not, maybe.

Ebor
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« Reply #140 on: December 02, 2007, 12:51:01 AM »

Yet this passage is used/has been used by some RC/EO whose Churches are not "sola scriptura" so it doesn't seem to me that saying that Sol.Scrip. is to blame follows.

Ebor

Bro, I've been around RC/EC and Orthodox parishes my whole life and never heard this argument.  The only place I have seen it is on the internet.
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« Reply #141 on: December 02, 2007, 02:08:17 AM »

Bro, I've been around RC/EC and Orthodox parishes my whole life and never heard this argument.  The only place I have seen it is on the internet.

Very true; the simple fact that certain members of the Church misunderstand our theology and tradition and instead attempt to impose upon us theology derived from the protestant methodology of sola scriptura does not imply that such theologies or theological approaches are condoned by the Church.
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« Reply #142 on: December 02, 2007, 05:28:19 PM »

Very true; the simple fact that certain members of the Church misunderstand our theology and tradition and instead attempt to impose upon us theology derived from the protestant methodology of sola scriptura does not imply that such theologies or theological approaches are condoned by the Church.

Smiley 
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« Reply #143 on: December 02, 2007, 07:19:40 PM »

Christodoulos,
My source for the above quote is Fr. Theodore Stylianopoulos, in his class at Holy Cross Greek Orthodox School of Theology.  Fr. Ted is one of the foremost New Testament theologians and is a prolific author.  What is your source, please?

God bless u !

My source......? The Holy Tradition of the Church,the writings of the Holy Scripture and the Holy Apostels and Fathers, Saints and Elders of the orthodox Church.

Do you want me to post quotes from these sources ? ( I am afraid people will get upset  Shocked )

I know one personal experience: In a russian Church I went for Liturgy and when all went to venerate the Holy Cross and kiss the hand of the Priest and receive the Antidoron, one woman was without a Veil and the Parish Priest asked her why she has no cover and told her, that she is not allowed to kiss the cross without. She had to go without kissing it.

In some russian churches,where you can buy candles, they have some veils for women who come without and give it to them.

IN CHRIST


First Christian clothing shop for Orthodox women is to open in St Petersburg
8.11.2007
 
The first clothing store for Orthodox Christian women will open in November in St Petersburg. The idea to open the store belongs to Nadezhda Belkova-Bertrash, a wife of a priest. She is sure the shop will become popular with Christian women, who frequently can’t find appropriate long modest skirts for going to church in other stores.
     
Besides, the variety of beautiful virtuous clothing items displayed at the new store is going to ruin the common image of a buttoned up Orthodox Christian prayer, she says.
......
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« Reply #144 on: December 03, 2007, 12:30:23 AM »

And is there any historical evidence (I am not demanding a citation, I'll take your word for it) or modern scholarly work (I would be quite interested in that) that addresses this judaizing tendency hypothesis?

One strong supporting piece of evidence for my position comes from the prayer that I cited here concerning miscarriage.  Consider this passage, for example.  (A similar passage exists in the "Prayer for a Woman on the First Day after Childbirth", and possibly in other places) : "And, according to Your great mercy as the Good God Who loves mankind, be merciful and forgive all those who are here present and who have touched her."  The implication is clearly made in this passage that all who may have touched the woman during her perioid of "uncleanness" have been rendered ritually impure.  Clearly, the people of God don't have to worry about ritual impurity anymore. 
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« Reply #145 on: December 03, 2007, 02:11:40 AM »

I know one personal experience: In a russian Church I went for Liturgy and when all went to venerate the Holy Cross and kiss the hand of the Priest and receive the Antidoron, one woman was without a Veil and the Parish Priest asked her why she has no cover and told her, that she is not allowed to kiss the cross without. She had to go without kissing it.

And yet Christ dined with tax collectors and allowed a prostitute to kiss him. Too bad this priest hasn't bothered to pay attention when he reads the Gospels, there really is some good stuff in there.

So far you've cited as your sources a Russian priest with no regard for the Gospel and various celibate monastics from the last 200 years. Do you have any real sources? (They are out there, I know of them, but it may take a bit of research on your part.)

Oh, and the problem isn't you citing sources, it's copy and pasting long texts. Give the relevant lines and a citation (author, book, and page number) and you won't annoy people, but cutting and pasting whole articles is something different entirely.
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« Reply #146 on: December 03, 2007, 02:26:40 AM »


I know one personal experience: In a russian Church I went for Liturgy and when all went to venerate the Holy Cross and kiss the hand of the Priest and receive the Antidoron, one woman was without a Veil and the Parish Priest asked her why she has no cover and told her, that she is not allowed to kiss the cross without. She had to go without kissing it.

Luke 7: 36-39

Then one of the Pharisees asked Him to eat with him. And He went to the Pharisee's house, and sat down to eat. [37] And behold, a woman in the city who was a sinner, when she heard that Jesus sat at the table in the Pharisee's house, brought an alabaster flask of fragrant oil, [38] and stood at His feet behind Him weeping; and she began to wash His feet with her tears, and wiped them with the hair of her head; and she kissed His feet and anointed them with fragrant oil. [39] Now when the Pharisee who had invited Him saw this, he spoke to himself, saying "This Man, if He were a prophet, would know who and what manner of woman this is who is touching Him; for she is a sinner."


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« Reply #147 on: December 03, 2007, 02:34:33 AM »

Luke 7: 36-39

Then one of the Pharisees asked Him to eat with him. And He went to the Pharisee's house, and sat down to eat. [37] And behold, a woman in the city who was a sinner, when she heard that Jesus sat at the table in the Pharisee's house, brought an alabaster flask of fragrant oil, [38] and stood at His feet behind Him weeping; and she began to wash His feet with her tears, and wiped them with the hair of her head; and she kissed His feet and anointed them with fragrant oil. [39] Now when the Pharisee who had invited Him saw this, he spoke to himself, saying "Thus Man, if He were a prophet, would know who and what manner of woman this is who is touching Him; for she is a sinner."

And what of the woman with the flow of blood who touched the hem of Jesus's robe?  Did not Jesus heal her on the spot, though this woman's act made Him ritually unclean?
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« Reply #148 on: December 03, 2007, 03:34:33 AM »

And what of the woman with the flow of blood who touched the hem of Jesus's robe?  Did not Jesus heal her on the spot, though this woman's act made Him ritually unclean?

I always found this particular pericope to be most interesting due to the contradiction created: according to Jewish law, God himself became unclean...kinda defeats the purpose, don't you think? It certainly changes they way you look at these things.
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« Reply #149 on: December 03, 2007, 03:41:05 AM »

I always found this particular pericope to be most interesting due to the contradiction created: according to Jewish law, God himself became unclean...kinda defeats the purpose, don't you think? It certainly changes they way you look at these things.
I remember my priest making this very point in his homily when this narrative came up in the Sunday Gospel reading a few weeks ago.
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« Reply #150 on: December 03, 2007, 07:08:47 AM »

God bless !

To keep the Tradition and the Rules of the Holy Church has nothing todo with Pharisee's.

I have to say, that Priest was right, he told her without anger or anything else, it is the duty of every Priest to keep the order and sanctity, in the Temple of God.

Christ came on earth to save the sinners, but he never blessed "sin", he also did not want to abolish he wants to fulfil. When you say a Prostitute kissed Christ -Christ did not bless prostitution,he said; Go and don't sin again; she repented ,there is a difference.

Did he not say that we should not even change one JOTA of the Law ? Did he not say in his parable that the servant who doesn't keep the small, how can he keep the great ?

Is not the Scripture full of advises to keep the Deposit ?

The problem is when we start to interprete these passages of our own, or ?

I don't know what you mean ( in a bit negative tone) celibate monastics of the last 200 years ? I think St. John Chrysostom is not of the last 200 years....and let me ask you; Do you think that the Church would follow this practice for about 2000 years, when it is only for Pharisee's, do you not see that it is a bit arrugant, to think we now know better ? But perhaps it is when people follow a "too academic theology" - Theology without ascesis is the Theology of the Deomons. St. Maximos; I only have to read what you are saying about the fasts......?

I know quotes, I don't have to search ( perhaps for the english translation ), but when you know them, why should I post ?

IN CHRIST

You and others present here, a very westernized, too academical, orthodoxy ( of the head ) !
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« Reply #151 on: December 03, 2007, 10:58:39 AM »

God bless !

To keep the Tradition and the Rules of the Holy Church has nothing todo with Pharisee's.

I have to say, that Priest was right, he told her without anger or anything else, it is the duty of every Priest to keep the order and sanctity, in the Temple of God.

Christ came on earth to save the sinners, but he never blessed "sin", he also did not want to abolish he wants to fulfil. When you say a Prostitute kissed Christ -Christ did not bless prostitution,he said; Go and don't sin again; she repented ,there is a difference.

Did he not say that we should not even change one JOTA of the Law ? Did he not say in his parable that the servant who doesn't keep the small, how can he keep the great ?

Is not the Scripture full of advises to keep the Deposit ?

The problem is when we start to interprete these passages of our own, or ?

I don't know what you mean ( in a bit negative tone) celibate monastics of the last 200 years ? I think St. John Chrysostom is not of the last 200 years....and let me ask you; Do you think that the Church would follow this practice for about 2000 years, when it is only for Pharisee's, do you not see that it is a bit arrugant, to think we now know better ? But perhaps it is when people follow a "too academic theology" - Theology without ascesis is the Theology of the Deomons. St. Maximos; I only have to read what you are saying about the fasts......?

I know quotes, I don't have to search ( perhaps for the english translation ), but when you know them, why should I post ?

IN CHRIST

You and others present here, a very westernized, too academical, orthodoxy ( of the head ) !

Gee, I'm so glad to know that you, in your great wisdom, have decided that we, the unholy, are too "westernized" and "academical" (which isn't even a word-- the word is "academic").  Note the sarcasm, please.

I was specifically quoting Fr. Theodore Stylianopoulos when I posted that St. Paul was speaking to a SPECIFIC problem in a SPECIFIC community at a SPECIFIC time.  This is in NO way a new interpretation of the Gospel.  And furthermore, if you are going to pass judgement on Fr. Ted's interpretation and teaching of this passage, I suggest you go and meet him and take his class first, as he is one of the most TRULY humble, pious people I have ever met, who can quote the fathers and the Gospel without giving it a second thought on any day of the week.  And he doesn't just use them to support ultra-conservative, judgemental, negative positions... He actually uses them in the spirit that they were written... as holy words written for the education and edification of the people.  Thus, I suggest you meet him before you decide that his interpretations are too "westernized" and "academical."

Furthermore, just because someone poses an interpretation that you don't agree with, or that might be slightly less strict and more accepting of people and their "sins" (since you seem to think it is a sin for a woman not to cover her head-- isn't it also a sin to pass judgement?), doesn't mean that they are too "westernized" or "academical."  Theology, learning, and interpretation of the scriptures within the context of the church (which I daresay Fr. Ted is, since he teaches at the seminary) did NOT end with St. John Chrysostom, nor is it limited to monastics.  I think St. John Chrysostom and all the saints would be terribly disappointed if they thought that we had stopped thinking and attemting to learn more about the scriptures/ Christ and just blindly accepted what people put in front of us!  But maybe that's just me...

This is where I usually write, "I hope I'm not offending, please forgive me if I am."  And while I do feel that way, I would like to point out that, of your last post, it really is the last sentence that I, personally, take offense to.  Blindly passing judgement on those you don't agree with is not, IMHO, in the spirit of the good Christian discussion that this forum is for.  Granted I'm new to this forum, but as one of my best friends is a moderator and I know him quite well, I know he would not be on a forum where such nasty judgements were the norm.  I was very disappointed to read that this morning.  I had hoped that, after being absent for a couple of days because of my schedule, I would come back and find a nice, healthy discussion continuing.  Instead I find that I, and others that agree with me, are too "westernized" and "academical."  By the way, you never did actually cite a source for what you claimed (about the Jewish tradition, etc.).  I would still be interested in discussing that (sans judgements, of course).

God bless you.  I pray we can continue this discussion without insulting and hurting eachother any further.

In Christ,
Presbytera Mari

P.S. I have to agree that I do not think turning that young woman away was the way for that priest to go.  In this day and age, he should be glad she came at all.  I do not think it is the correct message to send to people that Christ will only love them and allow them into His Church if they're heads are covered.  A more proper way to have handled it would have been to allow her to venerate the icon, and then privately take her aside and tell her that the tradition in that parish is for women to cover their heads and that, not wanting to see her leave, he would be happy to provide her with one.  He should have showed kindness, patience, tolerance, and love, the way Christ does.  Instead, the poor woman, who only wanted to venerate a holy icon, was met with judgement and was turned away, because she didn't follow a "law" (this does sound Pharisaic, in my opinion).

The Archbishop of Greece (who we should be praying for in his current illness) has brought thousands of young people back to the church by telling them NOT to worry about head coverings or how they dress at all(within reason, of course), and just come as they are.  I think that is a beautiful thing!  I would like to think that Christ would not want His children to stay away from Him or His Holy Church just because their heads are not covered...
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« Reply #152 on: December 03, 2007, 11:37:12 AM »

(I'll enlarge the text because I think the point is excellent)


A more proper way to have handled it would have been to allow her to venerate the icon, and then privately take her aside and tell her that the tradition in that parish is for women to cover their heads and that, not wanting to see her leave, he would be happy to provide her with one.

Amen.
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« Reply #153 on: December 03, 2007, 01:12:14 PM »

Dr. Karras often raises some legitimate points in her work.  Unfortunately, partly through the testimony and argument of other scholars I have found her to be one who has an "axe to grind" in ways that make it difficult for me to trust her objectivity. 

Someone -- I believe it was Christodoulos -- asked for examples of women serving in liturgical roles before 1800. I referenced the article because it provides details of three such examples from WAY before 1800. Everyone can make of that evidence what they will, but questioning the author's personal motivations for presenting the evidence does nothing to address the issue itself.
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« Reply #154 on: December 03, 2007, 01:16:50 PM »

Gee, I'm so glad to know that you, in your great wisdom, have decided that we, the unholy, are too "westernized" and "academical" (which isn't even a word-- the word is "academic").  Note the sarcasm, please.

I was specifically quoting Fr. Theodore Stylianopoulos when I posted that St. Paul was speaking to a SPECIFIC problem in a SPECIFIC community at a SPECIFIC time.  This is in NO way a new interpretation of the Gospel.  And furthermore, if you are going to pass judgement on Fr. Ted's interpretation and teaching of this passage, I suggest you go and meet him and take his class first, as he is one of the most TRULY humble, pious people I have ever met, who can quote the fathers and the Gospel without giving it a second thought on any day of the week.  And he doesn't just use them to support ultra-conservative, judgemental, negative positions... He actually uses them in the spirit that they were written... as holy words written for the education and edification of the people.  Thus, I suggest you meet him before you decide that his interpretations are too "westernized" and "academical."

Furthermore, just because someone poses an interpretation that you don't agree with, or that might be slightly less strict and more accepting of people and their "sins" (since you seem to think it is a sin for a woman not to cover her head-- isn't it also a sin to pass judgement?), doesn't mean that they are too "westernized" or "academical."  Theology, learning, and interpretation of the scriptures within the context of the church (which I daresay Fr. Ted is, since he teaches at the seminary) did NOT end with St. John Chrysostom, nor is it limited to monastics.  I think St. John Chrysostom and all the saints would be terribly disappointed if they thought that we had stopped thinking and attemting to learn more about the scriptures/ Christ and just blindly accepted what people put in front of us!  But maybe that's just me...

This is where I usually write, "I hope I'm not offending, please forgive me if I am."  And while I do feel that way, I would like to point out that, of your last post, it really is the last sentence that I, personally, take offense to.  Blindly passing judgement on those you don't agree with is not, IMHO, in the spirit of the good Christian discussion that this forum is for.  Granted I'm new to this forum, but as one of my best friends is a moderator and I know him quite well, I know he would not be on a forum where such nasty judgements were the norm.  I was very disappointed to read that this morning.  I had hoped that, after being absent for a couple of days because of my schedule, I would come back and find a nice, healthy discussion continuing.  Instead I find that I, and others that agree with me, are too "westernized" and "academical."  By the way, you never did actually cite a source for what you claimed (about the Jewish tradition, etc.).  I would still be interested in discussing that (sans judgements, of course).

God bless you.  I pray we can continue this discussion without insulting and hurting eachother any further.

In Christ,
Presbytera Mari

P.S. I have to agree that I do not think turning that young woman away was the way for that priest to go.  In this day and age, he should be glad she came at all.  I do not think it is the correct message to send to people that Christ will only love them and allow them into His Church if they're heads are covered.  A more proper way to have handled it would have been to allow her to venerate the icon, and then privately take her aside and tell her that the tradition in that parish is for women to cover their heads and that, not wanting to see her leave, he would be happy to provide her with one.  He should have showed kindness, patience, tolerance, and love, the way Christ does.  Instead, the poor woman, who only wanted to venerate a holy icon, was met with judgement and was turned away, because she didn't follow a "law" (this does sound Pharisaic, in my opinion).

The Archbishop of Greece (who we should be praying for in his current illness) has brought thousands of young people back to the church by telling them NOT to worry about head coverings or how they dress at all(within reason, of course), and just come as they are.  I think that is a beautiful thing!  I would like to think that Christ would not want His children to stay away from Him or His Holy Church just because their heads are not covered...

God bless !

When a person comes to Church improper ( man or woman) the whole parish is blamed and not only one Person. I think the Priest was acting the right way, I thank God that there are some few Priests left ,with zeal for his Holy Church.

In a Parish were people are dressed improper I would not go for Liturgy - that's my opinion.

But with westernized, academic ....I did not think of Fr. Ted !

Nice to remind (insult - when you think this is proper behavier for a Matjuschka) me of my bad grammar and orthography ( but I will not change it- it is not important) !

In CHRIST

Your post is nothing "new" here, there are many modernists but some traditional too.
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« Reply #155 on: December 03, 2007, 01:18:50 PM »

Someone -- I believe it was Christodoulos -- asked for examples of women serving in liturgical roles before 1800. I referenced the article because it provides details of three such examples from WAY before 1800. Everyone can make of that evidence what they will, but questioning the author's personal motivations for presenting the evidence does nothing to address the issue itself.

God bless !

Sorry, but I don't know what u mean- it must be someone else ?

In CHRIST
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« Reply #156 on: December 03, 2007, 01:28:44 PM »

God bless !

When a person comes to Church improper ( man or woman) the whole parish is blamed and not only one Person. I think the Priest was acting the right way, I thank God that there are some few Priests left ,with zeal for his Holy Church.

Blamed?  Blamed for what and by whom?

Quote from: Christodoulos
In a Parish were people are dressed improper I would not go for Liturgy - that's my opinion.

Define "improper" and then explain by what authority you decide what is proper and improper.  Then describe to me what it is like to attend the Divine Liturgy amongst only those who are as perfect as you.

Quote from: Christodoulos
Nice to remind (insult - when you think this is proper behavier for a Matjuschka) me of my bad grammar and orthography ( but I will not change it- it is not important) !

In CHRIST

Your post is nothing "new" here, there are many modernists but some traditional too.

Your concern over insults is ironic given your propensity for slinging them.
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« Reply #157 on: December 03, 2007, 01:30:48 PM »

God bless !

When a person comes to Church improper ( man or woman) the whole parish is in blamed and not only one Person. I think the Priest accted the right way, I thank God that there are some few Priests left with zeal for his Holy Church.

In a Parish were people are dressed improper I would not go for Liturgy - that's my opinion.

But with westernized, academic ....I did not think of Fr. Ted !

Nice to remind me of my bad grammar and orthography ( but I will not change it- it is not important) !

In CHRIST

Your post is nothing "new" here, there are many mondernists but some traditional too.



Christodoulos,

I did not come to this forum to make enemies, and I pray that I have not made one of you.  I am sorry that you find my positions so modernist and unacceptable, but I hope you realize that I don't plan to change them simply because you condemn them.

That being said, minus your condemnations of me, I enjoy hearing (*reading*) your opinion on topics like these if for no other reason than because it causes me to think about my own opinion and either defend or change it.  I thank you for this, and I pray that we can continue to discuss important matters on this forum.  I pray on topics where we disagree, that we may just agree to disagree and go forward without condemnations and judgements of eachother.  And on topics where we agree, I pray we can come to eachother's defense and unite in our agreement!

And please forgive me for criticizing your orthography, you are right.  Though it was not meant as an insult, I guess it was not nice of me.  It was said out of anger and hurt that you had condemned me so harshly.

With all that said, I am going to attempt to continue the discussion and pray that I won't offend you again...


I am sad to hear you say that you would not go to liturgy if people are dressed improperly.  Wouldn't you want to forgive their improprieties and continue on your journey to salvation?  Or is it because you find such things distracting?  I'm asking seriously, not sarcastically, because I am always interested to hear why men are so concerned about topics having to do with womens' dress and conduct in church (such as head coverings or receiving communion while menstruating).  I mean this as a serious question on which I would like to hear (*read* Cool your opinion.

God bless you for being so committed in your faith!
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« Reply #158 on: December 03, 2007, 01:32:07 PM »

Blamed?  Blamed for what and by whom?

Define "improper" and then explain by what authority you decide what is proper and improper.  Then describe to me what it is like to attend the Divine Liturgy amongst only those who are as perfect as you.

Your concern over insults is ironic given your propensity for slinging them.

God bless !

You are rc, right ?

In CHRIST
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« Reply #159 on: December 03, 2007, 01:34:15 PM »

God bless !

You are rc, right ?

In CHRIST


For now, I suppose I am Roman Catholic.  What does that have to do with anything I asked you?
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« Reply #160 on: December 03, 2007, 01:35:16 PM »

God bless !

When a person comes to Church improper ( man or woman) the whole parish is blamed and not only one Person. I think the Priest was acting the right way, I thank God that there are some few Priests left ,with zeal for his Holy Church.

In a Parish were people are dressed improper I would not go for Liturgy - that's my opinion.

But with westernized, academic ....I did not think of Fr. Ted !

Nice to remind (insult - when you think this is proper behavier for a Matjuschka) me of my bad grammar and orthography ( but I will not change it- it is not important) !

In CHRIST

Your post is nothing "new" here, there are many modernists but some traditional too.


By the way, I am going to choose to ignore the fact that you edited this post to add your condemnation of me.  It is clear that you think I am not a good Presbytera.  As I said in my above post, I am sad to hear that, especially since you have never met me...
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« Reply #161 on: December 03, 2007, 01:45:46 PM »

Christodoulos,

I did not come to this forum to make enemies, and I pray that I have not made one of you.  I am sorry that you find my positions so modernist and unacceptable, but I hope you realize that I don't plan to change them simply because you condemn them.

That being said, minus your condemnations of me, I enjoy hearing (*reading*) your opinion on topics like these if for no other reason than because it causes me to think about my own opinion and either defend or change it.  I thank you for this, and I pray that we can continue to discuss important matters on this forum.  I pray on topics where we disagree, that we may just agree to disagree and go forward without condemnations and judgements of eachother.  And on topics where we agree, I pray we can come to eachother's defense and unite in our agreement!

And please forgive me for criticizing your orthography, you are right.  Though it was not meant as an insult, I guess it was not nice of me.  It was said out of anger and hurt that you had condemned me so harshly.

With all that said, I am going to attempt to continue the discussion and pray that I won't offend you again...


I am sad to hear you say that you would not go to liturgy if people are dressed improperly.  Wouldn't you want to forgive their improprieties and continue on your journey to salvation?  Or is it because you find such things distracting?  I'm asking seriously, not sarcastically, because I am always interested to hear why men are so concerned about topics having to do with womens' dress and conduct in church (such as head coverings or receiving communion while menstruating).  I mean this as a serious question on which I would like to hear (*read* Cool your opinion.

God bless you for being so committed in your faith!

God bless !

I did not address your post when I wrote academic and westernized, I meant another poster.

When you read my post you will see, that I want all people to be proper dressed ( both man and woman ) but you are right, like I have written, often I could read about women and proper dress code but seldom about men.

For me improper dress in Church is blasphemy, the Temple of God is not the beach. When we celebrate Holy and Divine Liturgy with the Angels and Saints and worship God, when we drink his Allholy Blood and eat his Allpure Flesh and the Cherubim and Seraphim are prostrating and trembling -how can we dishonor the Sanctity of the Holy Church - please forgive me- but I can not accept this.

And I know some cases when the Theotokos and Saints told Elders that God is angered by these things.

In CHRIST

From Hieromonk Averky:

There is a story that I read just a few years ago from a little pamphlet that I found in the back of monastic church about a very devout Russian woman in Australia who could not always attend a Russian Orthodox church, but more often attended another Orthodox church at which most of the women never covered their heads. She was known for her full and beautiful hair, but she always kept it covered. She noticed this, and not judging anyone, she made a promise to the Most Pure Theotokos that she would always keep her head covered and dress modestly whenever she attended Divine Services. After some time, it was determined that she had a dangerous form of cancer and would have to undergo chemotherapy and radiation treatments. Like anyone, she was very frightened, and turned to the Mother of God with intense prayer and tears. Once while she was praying before her icon of the Pure Virgin, she heard a sweet and comforting voice, which said to her, "My dear child, because you have always shown me love and respect, my Divine Son has granted you healing, but only after a time. Because you have honored me by always keeping your head covered, you will not lose one strand of your hair." And all came true; to cleanse her soul, God permitted her to suffer for a time, but despite intensive therapy, her hair remained intact.

I know many such stories !
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« Reply #162 on: December 03, 2007, 01:55:35 PM »

God bless !

I did not address your post when I wrote academic and westernized, I meant another poster.

When you read my post you will see, that I want all people to be proper dressed ( both man and woman ) but you are right, like I have written, often I could read about women and proper dress code but seldom about men.

For me improper dress in Church is blasphemy, the Temple of God is not the beach. When we celebrate Holy and Divine Liturgy with the Angels and Saints and worship God, when we drink his Allholy Blood and eat his Allpure Flesh and the Cherubim and Seraphim are prostrating and trembling -how can we dishonor the Sanctity of the Holy Church - please forgive me- but I can not accept this.

And I know some cases when the Theotokos and Saints told Elders that God is angered by these things.

In CHRIST

From Hieromonk Averky:

There is a story that I read just a few years ago from a little pamphlet that I found in the back of monastic church about a very devout Russian woman in Australia who could not always attend a Russian Orthodox church, but more often attended another Orthodox church at which most of the women never covered their heads. She was known for her full and beautiful hair, but she always kept it covered. She noticed this, and not judging anyone, she made a promise to the Most Pure Theotokos that she would always keep her head covered and dress modestly whenever she attended Divine Services. After some time, it was determined that she had a dangerous form of cancer and would have to undergo chemotherapy and radiation treatments. Like anyone, she was very frightened, and turned to the Mother of God with intense prayer and tears. Once while she was praying before her icon of the Pure Virgin, she heard a sweet and comforting voice, which said to her, "My dear child, because you have always shown me love and respect, my Divine Son has granted you healing, but only after a time. Because you have honored me by always keeping your head covered, you will not lose one strand of your hair." And all came true; to cleanse her soul, God permitted her to suffer for a time, but despite intensive therapy, her hair remained intact.

I know many such stories !


This is a beautiful story, and I thank you for sharing it with me!  It gives me cause to think...
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« Reply #163 on: December 03, 2007, 02:18:49 PM »

God bless !

Through the will of God, the account of this miracle, which took place 24 years ago [1965], has reached America. It's authenticity is verified by the fact that it records the year, day, hour, city, address, names... etc. Reading it, we behold the great care which God has for the salvation of our sinful souls..........

Then the Mother of God was near me and I found myself again on that small platform, but now, instead of lying down, I was standing up. The Queen of heaven said: "Lord, how can I release her, she has short hair!?"
....

The Lord said: "Put a braid, the same color as her own hair, in her right hand."

......

The Lord said: "Let her go back to earth. Take hold of her hair and set her free

....

She answered that it was essential that I not fall, and she put the thick end of the braid of hair in my right hand. When she let go of it I flew toward earth.

Full story:

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/death/miracle_russia.aspx

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« Reply #164 on: December 03, 2007, 02:40:32 PM »

God bless !

I did not address your post when I wrote academic and westernized, I meant another poster.

When you read my post you will see, that I want all people to be proper dressed ( both man and woman ) but you are right, like I have written, often I could read about women and proper dress code but seldom about men.

For me improper dress in Church is blasphemy, the Temple of God is not the beach. When we celebrate Holy and Divine Liturgy with the Angels and Saints and worship God, when we drink his Allholy Blood and eat his Allpure Flesh and the Cherubim and Seraphim are prostrating and trembling -how can we dishonor the Sanctity of the Holy Church - please forgive me- but I can not accept this.

And I know some cases when the Theotokos and Saints told Elders that God is angered by these things.

In CHRIST

From Hieromonk Averky:

There is a story that I read just a few years ago from a little pamphlet that I found in the back of monastic church about a very devout Russian woman in Australia who could not always attend a Russian Orthodox church, but more often attended another Orthodox church at which most of the women never covered their heads. She was known for her full and beautiful hair, but she always kept it covered. She noticed this, and not judging anyone, she made a promise to the Most Pure Theotokos that she would always keep her head covered and dress modestly whenever she attended Divine Services. After some time, it was determined that she had a dangerous form of cancer and would have to undergo chemotherapy and radiation treatments. Like anyone, she was very frightened, and turned to the Mother of God with intense prayer and tears. Once while she was praying before her icon of the Pure Virgin, she heard a sweet and comforting voice, which said to her, "My dear child, because you have always shown me love and respect, my Divine Son has granted you healing, but only after a time. Because you have honored me by always keeping your head covered, you will not lose one strand of your hair." And all came true; to cleanse her soul, God permitted her to suffer for a time, but despite intensive therapy, her hair remained intact.

I know many such stories !


I am very pleased to read your posts on this matter so far and this wonderful story is a blessing and caused me to make this post.

From what I have read you are very conservative and seem to be very strong on pushing others to understand YOUR conservativeness which people seem to take as you condeming THEM for being less conservative and not agreeing with you.

I do not think you are condeming anyone.

I hope and pray that all of us orthodox can learn to get back to our true roots; particularly our preciuos women whom over the millenia has been the safe keepers of our most solemn charateristics and traditions.

Continue to try to maintain what our fathers brought us.

Sadly today among us orthodox you will not find much company.

It seems that WE are getting more and more 'wordly' as the generations go by especially and maybe largely due to those of us who have become Americanized and look back at the "olde" country as "backward" and old-fashioned.

Reading the various posts on this thread seems to clearly show that the orthodox world (that is to mean its people only since the Holy Church will not and can not change) is morphing into something. I can not imagine what it will be. But it at this point looks like protestantism. Thus we are starting to look like and act like protestants; thus we are not far from thinking like them and who knows whats next.

God bless you and us all.

Your Servant
Deacon Amde


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« Reply #165 on: December 03, 2007, 02:44:52 PM »

God bless !

From the life of St. Myrtidiotissa of Klissoura, CTOS:

The Panhagia told her; " Take a stick and speak. Talk about short skirts. Talk about apostasy. Preach repetence."

"I can't, my Panhagia. They don't listen," she replied.

The Mother of God chided her: " You must speak. Do not cease giving advice."

The Panhagia said: " Tell the People to keep the fasts, to keep Wednesday and Friday fasts....Not to eat. To go to Church regulary...Not to wear immodest clothing to Church. To dress humbly.

Eldress said: ....Be careful not to tempt men. No short sleeves, not short dresses, no short hair. The Panhagia is angered by these things.....

One vacationer, a scientist and physician, went to the monstery with her parents on a pilgrimage. This girl was wearing shorts; she had no respect for the sanctity of the place.

"My dear, don't go inside wearing such clothing. It's a sin," the ascetic lovingly and humbly advised her. " Put on a dress."
The doctor was outraged: " Get lost, you old hag ! Who are you to tell me what to do?
Well, I never. This stutterer this scarecrow that scares me even to look at, is going to tell me what to do ?"
The wretched woman made her way down to the church. Did her impiety remain unpunished ? She tripped and fell ! She fractured her foot, and they took her away on a stretcher.
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« Reply #166 on: December 03, 2007, 03:08:57 PM »

There is a story that I read just a few years ago from a little pamphlet that I found in the back of monastic church about a very devout Russian woman in Australia who could not always attend a Russian Orthodox church, but more often attended another Orthodox church at which most of the women never covered their heads. She was known for her full and beautiful hair, but she always kept it covered. She noticed this, and not judging anyone, she made a promise to the Most Pure Theotokos that she would always keep her head covered and dress modestly whenever she attended Divine Services. After some time, it was determined that she had a dangerous form of cancer and would have to undergo chemotherapy and radiation treatments. Like anyone, she was very frightened, and turned to the Mother of God with intense prayer and tears. Once while she was praying before her icon of the Pure Virgin, she heard a sweet and comforting voice, which said to her, "My dear child, because you have always shown me love and respect, my Divine Son has granted you healing, but only after a time. Because you have honored me by always keeping your head covered, you will not lose one strand of your hair." And all came true; to cleanse her soul, God permitted her to suffer for a time, but despite intensive therapy, her hair remained intact.

God bless !

From the life of St. Myrtidiotissa of Klissoura, CTOS:

The Panhagia told her; " Take a stick and speak. Talk about short skirts. Talk about apostasy. Preach repetence."

"I can't, my Panhagia. They don't listen," she replied.

The Mother of God chided her: " You must speak. Do not cease giving advice."

The Panhagia said: " Tell the People to keep the fasts, to keep Wednesday and Friday fasts....Not to eat. To go to Church regulary...Not to wear immodest clothing to Church. To dress humbly.

Eldress said: ....Be careful not to tempt men. No short sleeves, not short dresses, no short hair. The Panhagia is angered by these things.....

One vacationer, a scientist and physician, went to the monstery with her parents on a pilgrimage. This girl was wearing shorts; she had no respect for the sanctity of the place.

"My dear, don't go inside wearing such clothing. It's a sin," the ascetic lovingly and humbly advised her. " Put on a dress."
The doctor was outraged: " Get lost, you old hag ! Who are you to tell me what to do?
Well, I never. This stutterer this scarecrow that scares me even to look at, is going to tell me what to do ?"
The wretched woman made her way down to the church. Did her impiety remain unpunished ? She tripped and fell ! She fractured her foot, and they took her away on a stretcher.

These myths are the basis of your theology? And you wonder why we don't take you seriously? I've heard the same types of myths from protestants for years in order to justify some of the strangest beliefs, sorry I don't buy it. And, frankly, I find it quite frightening that there's at least a slim chance you're taking yourself seriously (not even I go so far as to take myself seriously Wink).
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« Reply #167 on: December 03, 2007, 03:20:05 PM »

^ If you know of a better way of straining the gnat to swallow the camel GiC, I'd like to hear it.
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« Reply #168 on: December 03, 2007, 03:24:36 PM »

The Panhagia told her; " Take a stick and speak.

The irony in the context of this thread being that the Panagia was telling a woman to teach in Church.....
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« Reply #169 on: December 03, 2007, 03:35:50 PM »

^ If you know of a better way of straining the gnat to swallow the camel GiC, I'd like to hear it.

Nope, can't think of a better way; this one takes the cake.
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« Reply #170 on: December 03, 2007, 03:49:51 PM »

Blamed?  Blamed for what and by whom?

Define "improper" and then explain by what authority you decide what is proper and improper.  Then describe to me what it is like to attend the Divine Liturgy amongst only those who are as perfect as you.

Your concern over insults is ironic given your propensity for slinging them.

Carole

HI

Please note that the authority to determine or judge what is or is not proper among the true faithful or as we say the "orthodox" is in the hand of you and me and all of us who are Christ's servants and protectors of the faith.

You are charged with protecting the 'truth' which you stand for as a true Christian. It is who you are.....

Thus you dress like the truth you stand for and protect.

Thus you go about life in accordance with the truth inside you.

When I say you I mean all of us.

This is very complicated for those who need more background on Godly attire and the spritual doors which are opened and closed for such attire.

I will give this small piece:

Adam and Eve were in the Garden prior to sin and were 'clothed' or not?

Most will say "not" as to say they were naked.

This is correct.

But there is more information left to digest.

Adam and Eve were naked but they did not 'know' it. Why? because the were "CLOTHED' with light. Light so bright that the could not see there own naked flesh.

After sinning; the light was lost and thus their naked flesh was revealed to them. God then fashioned for them garments of sin or wordly clothing. As such the garden was improper for such behavior and the resulting (sinful) attire and they were banished from the garden and placed out of it and into the world along with satan and his angels.

Christ as the second Adam (meaning beautiful) is the new light, that heavenly light which is blinding to the eye. His light is the original garments of Adam...Adams first garments which were and are Holy. WE are all in Christ and thus are privilledged to wear the Holy garments of brilliiant light walking in the world among all men being seen only in the light of Christ. Christ said His children are the light of the world.

This is where I stop.

I assure you that I can go on for pages.

I want you to try and see yourself as an angelic figure a Holy person (which you really are) not by your own ability by permission. If you can do that than  you can see that attire is paramount to us on earth as orthodox.

We are the true beleivers and thus are the gate keepers so to speak and have the authority of the Holy Spirit to speak to the world and to each other the mesage of God and the gifts of hope he gave and gives.

So yes you can judge me with truth and I you.

If you see me at your wedding feast with dirty jeans and grimmy work boots you may kindly put me out. I may be hurt by that but I knew that I was going to a wedding feast; it was my own slackness to not have taken the proper readiness to not offend the host of the wedding and wear attire fitting the occassion.

I also can not over dress so as to speak too loudly of myself and thus anger and or embarrass the host of the wedding feast with my apparent diregard evident in the bravodo of my oppulent and excessive presentation. This may cause my dismissal as well.

Christ has prepared His wedding feast on the Cross of Calvary so that WE may all have a place at His table. So Please come and bring a friend.

But please dress for the day and not for the night and if you are a women cover your blessed head 'modestly' and wear no adornments or jewels or make-up and such so as not to over shine the beauty of the Bride or distract others from Her beauty who is the Queen and center most of the feast; where by such error you make offense to Her.....she is 'The Church of Christ'..His chosen Bride. ALL eyes are to be on her ONLY!

I am not sure if I am being clear here but thats the best I can right now in a short order.

Covering your head is a Holy matter. It is not for all women.

Heaven is not for all Christians either.

Please wear what you like if thats what you prefer.

But the gentlemen whose authority you question has offered you a blessing. Not by himself but in behalf of Christ and as far as I am concerned he had / has the authority to make the point to you and us all.


May God bless you.

Your Servant
Deacon Amde
God bless you  
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« Reply #171 on: December 03, 2007, 03:54:16 PM »

God bless !

I want to post again from Cor:

Every man praying or prophesying with his head covered disgraceth his head.

But every woman praying or prophesying with her head not covered disgraceth her head: for it is all one as if she were shaven.

For if a woman be not covered, let her be shorn. But if it be a shame to a woman to be shorn or made bald, let her cover her head.

You yourselves judge. Doth it become a woman to pray unto God uncovered?

Is the Scripture not clear enaugh ?: Every man and every woman Huh

Clemens of Alexandria:Paedagogos

Going to Church
Woman and man are to go to church decently attired, with natural step, embracing silence, possessing unfeigned love, pure in body, pure in heart, fit to pray to God. Let the woman observe this, further. Let her be entirely covered, unless she happen to be at home. For that style of dress is grave, and protects from being gazed at. And she will never fall, who puts before her eyes modesty, and her shawl; nor will she invite another to fall into sin by uncovering her face. For this is the wish of the Word, since it is becoming for her to pray veiled.
They say that the wife of Æneas, through excess of propriety, did not, even in her terror at the capture of Troy, uncover herself; but, though fleeing from the conflagration, remained veiled.

Apostolic constitutions:

......But thou who designest to be faithful to thine own husband, take care to please him alone. And when thou art in the streets, cover thy head; for by such a covering thou wilt avoid being viewed of idle persons. Do not paint thy face, which is God's workmanship; for there is no part of thee which wants ornament, inasmuch as all things which God has made are very good. But the lascivious additional adorning of what is already good is an affront to the bounty of the Creator. Look downward when thou walkest abroad, veiling thyself as becomes women.

Tertullian:

On Prayer:

But, withal, the declaration is plain: "Every woman," says he, "praying and prophesying with head uncovered, dishonours her own head." 1 Corinthians 11:5 What is "every woman," but woman of every age, of every rank, of every condition? By saying "every" he excepts nought of womanhood, just as he excepts nought of manhood either from not being covered; for just so he says, "Every man." 1 Corinthians 11:4 As, then, in the masculine sex, under the name of "man" even the "youth" is forbidden to be veiled; so, too, in the feminine, under the name of "woman," even the "virgin" is bidden to be veiled......

Ón the Veiling of Virigins

An Appeal to the Married Women chapt.17

But we admonish you, too, women of the second (degree of) modesty, who have fallen into wedlock, not to outgrow so far the discipline of the veil, not even in a moment of an hour, as, because you cannot refuse it, to take some other means to nullify it, by going neither covered nor bare. For some, with their turbans and woollen bands, do not veil their head, but bind it up; protected, indeed, in front, but, where the head properly lies, bare. Others are to a certain extent covered over the region of the brain with linen coifs of small dimensions—I suppose for fear of pressing the head—and not reaching quite to the ears. If they are so weak in their hearing as not to be able to hear through a covering, I pity them. Let them know that the whole head constitutes "the woman." Its limits and boundaries reach as far as the place where the robe begins. The region of the veil is co-extensive with the space covered by the hair when unbound; in order that the necks too may be encircled. For it is they which must be subjected, for the sake of which "power" ought to be "had on the head:" the veil is their yoke.

To us the Lord has, even by revelations, measured the space for the veil to extend over. For a certain sister of ours was thus addressed by an angel, beating her neck, as if in applause: "Elegant neck, and deservedly bare! it is well for you to unveil yourself from the head right down to the loins, lest withal this freedom of your neck profit you not!" And, of course, what you have said to one you have said to all. But how severe a chastisement will they likewise deserve, who, amid (the recital of) the Psalms, and at any mention of (the name of) God, continue uncovered; (who) even when about to spend time in prayer itself, with the utmost readiness place a fringe, or a tuft, or any thread whatever, on the crown of their heads, and suppose themselves to be covered?

St. John Chrysostomos,hom in Cor

For He it is Who created Nature. When therefore you overturn these boundaries, see how great injuries ensue.

And tell me not this, that the error is but small. For first, it is great even of itself: being as it is disobedience.

"Every woman that prays or prophesies with her head unveiled, dishonors her head," he stayed not at this point only, but also proceeded to say, "for it is one and the same thing as if she were shaven." But if to be shaven is always dishonorable, it is plain too that being uncovered is always a reproach. And not even with this only was he content, but added again, saying, "The woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head, because of the angels." He signifies that not at the time of prayer only but also continually, she ought to be covered. But with regard to the man, it is no longer about covering but about wearing long hair, that he so forms his discourse. To be covered he then only forbids, when a man is praying; but the wearing long hair he discourages at all times. Wherefore, as touching the woman, he said, "But if she be not veiled, let her also be shorn;" so likewise touching the man, "If he have long hair, it is a dishonor unto him." He said not, "if he be covered" but, "if he have long hair." Wherefore also he said at the beginning, "Every man praying or prophesying, having any thing on his head, dishonors his head." He said not, "covered," but "having any thing on his head;" signifying that even though he pray with the head bare, yet if he have long hair, he is like to one covered. "For the hair," says he, "is given for a covering."

And alos in Hom onSt. Timothy ......

Hippolytus, Hermas, Augustinus, Ambrosius.,Jerome.......

In CHRIST
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« Reply #172 on: December 03, 2007, 03:56:32 PM »

For me improper dress in Church is blasphemy, the Temple of God is not the beach. When we celebrate Holy and Divine Liturgy with the Angels and Saints and worship God, when we drink his Allholy Blood and eat his Allpure Flesh and the Cherubim and Seraphim are prostrating and trembling -how can we dishonor the Sanctity of the Holy Church - please forgive me- but I can not accept this.
Yes. This is correct.  It is best to dress properly and modestly when in Church. And there are some (perhaps not all that many) RC's who agree with you on this. For example:
http://www.national-coalition.org/modesty/modnorms.html
http://www.national-coalition.org/modesty/moddecre.html
http://www.national-coalition.org/modesty/modsiri.html
http://www.catholic.org/featured/headline.php?ID=647
http://www.catholicplanet.com/women/headcovering.htm




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« Reply #173 on: December 03, 2007, 03:58:36 PM »

Nope, can't think of a better way; this one takes the cake.
It's amazing just how many "near death experiences" orthodoxinfo uses to justify it's "traditionalist" teachings:

Quote
Masturbation:
Another teenage boy also fell to the sin of self-abuse and, again out of shame, failed to confess it to his spiritual Father. It so happened that he contracted a fatal disease and was dying. His family sent word to the boys Confessor about his condition, but were unable to find him before the boy died. At the time of his death, the young man's soul was seized by two horrible demons, which began to drag him to a place of terrible torment. In the meantime, the boys spiritual Father arrived at his home and found the grieving family. If you had come earlier, they cried, you might have prevented his death. Please, please bring him back. The Priest began to pray and, lo, a miracle occurred. The boy indeed returned to life.
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/selfabuse.aspx

Abortion:
When she was young and newly married, some 35 years before, she became pregnant at a time when her family was in the greatest financial straits. The other members of the family pressed her to have an abortion, but she refused absolutely. Eventually, however, due to the threats of her mother-in-law, she gave in against her will, and the operation was performed. The medical supervision of the illicit operation was very primitive with the result that she caught a serious infection, and within the space of a few days died, without being able to confess her sin.

At the moment of death, which occurred in the evening, she felt her soul part from the body in the way that is usually described; her soul remained nearby and watched the body being washed, clothed and placed in the coffin. In the morning, she followed the procession to the church, watched the funeral, and saw the coffin loaded into the hearse for transfer to the cemetery. The soul was as though flying a small height above the body.

Suddenly there appeared in the road two "deacons," as she described them, in shining white sticharia and oraria. One of them was reading a scroll. As the car approached, he held up his hand, and the car ground to a halt. The driver got out to see what was wrong with the motor, and in the meanwhile the angels started to converse. The one holding the scroll which was clearly the record of her sins, looked up from his reading and said: "It is sad, she has a very serious sin on her list, and is bound for hell, since she did not confess it." "Yes," said the other, "but it is a pity that she should be punished, as she did not want to do it, but was forced into it by her family." "Very well," replied the First, "the only thing to do is to send her back to be able to confess her sin and repent of it."
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/death/death_metcyp.aspx

It seems that a cult of the dead is an integral part of this sort of "traditionalism", which seems to me to be appropriate, since "traditionalism", (as compared to Tradition) is in fact a dead faith.

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« Reply #174 on: December 03, 2007, 04:01:47 PM »


Every man praying or prophesying with his head covered disgraceth his head.

But every woman praying or prophesying with her head not covered disgraceth her head: for it is all one as if she were shaven.

For if a woman be not covered, let her be shorn. But if it be a shame to a woman to be shorn or made bald, let her cover her head.

You yourselves judge. Doth it become a woman to pray unto God uncovered?

Is the Scripture not clear enaugh ?: Every man and every woman Huh
Yes. This was the RC teaching also, before Vatican II. Then, somehow they changed it.
http://www.catholicplanet.com/women/headcovering.htm
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« Reply #175 on: December 03, 2007, 04:03:10 PM »

These myths are the basis of your theology? And you wonder why we don't take you seriously? I've heard the same types of myths from protestants for years in order to justify some of the strangest beliefs, sorry I don't buy it. And, frankly, I find it quite frightening that there's at least a slim chance you're taking yourself seriously (not even I go so far as to take myself seriously Wink).

God bless !

You are not objective and fair again.

Read this "myths" and believe them or not - I never said you must believe them !

But of course "westernized and academic" people like you can not believe them. But why not throw out all the myths like resurrection of the dead, miracles of Christ, ascension,.......are they also myths for you ? How far have you gone from the true experience of Christ ? Go on with your academic search - I hope for you, that you not fall in delusion .......many have gone astray for being too academic...

In CHRIST
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« Reply #176 on: December 03, 2007, 04:05:47 PM »

And yet Christ dined with tax collectors and allowed a prostitute to kiss him. Too bad this priest hasn't bothered to pay attention when he reads the Gospels, there really is some good stuff in there.

So far you've cited as your sources a Russian priest with no regard for the Gospel and various celibate monastics from the last 200 years. Do you have any real sources? (They are out there, I know of them, but it may take a bit of research on your part.)

Oh, and the problem isn't you citing sources, it's copy and pasting long texts. Give the relevant lines and a citation (author, book, and page number) and you won't annoy people, but cutting and pasting whole articles is something different entirely.

Admonishing ordained orthodox clergyman is a sinful act.

That you perform such acts in this public forum is shameful as well.
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« Reply #177 on: December 03, 2007, 04:07:01 PM »

For if a woman be not covered, let her be shorn. But if it be a shame to a woman to be shorn or made bald, let her cover her head.

Don't you see that your position is purely cultural without any theological basis form this quote of yours? In our culture it is certainly not a shame for a woman to have short hair or be bald; granted, some may have aesthetic objections, but that's the extent of it. So using the logic of your post, since it is not a shame to a woman to be shorn or made bald, there's no need for her to cover her head.
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« Reply #178 on: December 03, 2007, 04:11:03 PM »

Admonishing ordained orthodox clergyman is a sinful act.

That you perform such acts in this public forum is shameful as well.

That choice is God's not yours to make, this priest was wrong and ignorant and, dare I say if the apocryphal story is to be believed, prideful and full of sin. I will not renounce truth because of your cultural expectations; it is the God given right of every human being to exercise their faith and hold their opinions in accordance with the dictates of their conscience.

So condemn me to hell if you must; if this is enough to send me there, then it's a done deal, I'll start getting my visa approved.
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« Reply #179 on: December 03, 2007, 04:12:25 PM »

The irony in the context of this thread being that the Panagia was telling a woman to teach in Church.....

God bless !

Not in Church - but she should advise people- there is no problem with ......also St. Euphemia of Serbia went from town to town and preached to people....she was blessed by the Bishop to to.

And all the other woman Saints: Like St. Thekla the equal to the Apostels, St. Nina, St. Mary Magdalene,.........so nothing new...

In CHRIST

These "stories", you called them myths ( your sin ), I posted because perhaps some people want to read them, not as evidence for the teaching of the church. The Teaching is based on the Scripture,Tradition ( for 2000 years) the Fathers, Apostolic writings.......so these experiences ( there are many others) are only to demonstrate the truth of the Church. When you once will be judged, you can make no excuses for not knowing- now you have read.
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« Reply #180 on: December 03, 2007, 04:16:01 PM »

Admonishing ordained orthodox clergyman is a sinful act.

That you perform such acts in this public forum is shameful as well.


Fr. Deacon,

If you're going to point this out to GiC, it's only fair that you point it out to Christodolous, who has admonished Orthodox BISHOPS here repeatedly.
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« Reply #181 on: December 03, 2007, 04:16:49 PM »

Don't you see that your position is purely cultural without any theological basis form this quote of yours? In our culture it is certainly not a shame for a woman to have short hair or be bald; granted, some may have aesthetic objections, but that's the extent of it. So using the logic of your post, since it is not a shame to a woman to be shorn or made bald, there's no need for her to cover her head.

God bless !

Please forgive me - you want to be academic and still write something so un-logical, how it can be !

It is a shame to be shorn for a woman-is it so difficult to understand- is the Scripture so complicated to you ?

In CHRIST
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« Reply #182 on: December 03, 2007, 04:18:30 PM »

God bless !

Not in Church - but she should advise people- there is no problem with ......also St. Euphemia of Serbia went from town to town and preached to people....she was blessed by the Bishop to to.

And all the other woman Saints: Like St. Thekla the equal to the Apostels, St. Nina, St. Mary Magdalene,.........so nothing new...

In CHRIST

So you disagree with the OP...at least we're getting somewhere.

Quote
These "stories", you called them myths ( your sin )

No, George did not, I did...I believe that if he wants to say as much he is perfectly capable of doing so himself.
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« Reply #183 on: December 03, 2007, 04:22:22 PM »

That choice is God's not yours to make, this priest was wrong and ignorant and, dare I say if the apocryphal story is to be believed, prideful and full of sin. I will not renounce truth because of your cultural expectations; it is the God given right of every human being to exercise their faith and hold their opinions in accordance with the dictates of their conscience.

So condemn me to hell, see if I care; if this is enough to send me there, then it's a done deal, I'll start getting my visa approved.

I will pray that hell will not befall you.

I pray that you also do your part and avoid strong minded solicitations such as these.

This kind of speech is not for you.

Leave this loose lipped, high minded gibber -jabber to the tele-vangelists.

If you fear God you will bare His burdens as a faithful person.

Humility and patience....
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« Reply #184 on: December 03, 2007, 04:27:00 PM »

God bless !

Not in Church - but she should advise people- there is no problem with ......also St. Euphemia of Serbia went from town to town and preached to people....she was blessed by the Bishop to to.

And all the other woman Saints: Like St. Thekla the equal to the Apostels, St. Nina, St. Mary Magdalene,.........so nothing new...

In CHRIST

These "stories", you called them myths ( your sin ), I posted because perhaps some people want to read them, not as evidence for the teaching of the church. The Teaching is based on the Scripture,Tradition ( for 2000 years) the Fathers, Apostolic writings.......so these experiences ( there are many others) are only to demonstrate the truth of the Church. When you once will be judged, you can make no excuses for not knowing- now you have read.


Admonishing ordained orthodox clergyman is a sinful act.

That you perform such acts in this public forum is shameful as well.

God bless !

You are not objective and fair again.

Read this "myths" and believe them or not - I never said you must believe them !

But of course "westernized and academic" people like you can not believe them. But why not throw out all the myths like resurrection of the dead, miracles of Christ, ascension,.......are they also myths for you ? How far have you gone from the true experience of Christ ? Go on with your academic search - I hope for you, that you not fall in delusion .......many have gone astray for being too academic...

In CHRIST

I will pray that hell will not befall you.

I pray that you also do your part and avoid strong minded solicitations such as these.

This kind of speech is not for you.

Leave this loose lipped, high minded gibber -jabber to the tele-vangelists.

If you fear God you will bare His burdens as a faithful person.

Humility and patience....

Okay, I don't know about any other sane people reading this, but I am fast approaching the "how dare you" point.  I, among others, have absolutely tried to have a healthy discussion about such things.  But the fact that you are both continually slinging judgements and insults is absolutely disgusting, as far as I'm concerned, and I personally think this thread needs to be closed/locked/whatever it is that they do here.  I cannot believe the absolute un-Christian condemnations and judgements that are being thrown around here!  You couldn't sling a dead cat around the thread without hitting a judgement or condemnation by one of you two!  Who, in heaven's name, appointed you the judge over the rest of us!?!  You say that you stand for traditional Orthodoxy, but there is nothing Orthodox in what you say!  Orthodoxy is the faith of the love and tolerance of Christ!  Not the faith of judge-your-brother-because-he-doesn't-agree
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« Reply #185 on: December 03, 2007, 04:28:19 PM »

It's amazing just how many "near death experiences" orthodoxinfo uses to justify it's "traditionalist" teachings:

It seems that a cult of the dead is an integral part of this sort of "traditionalism", which seems to me to be appropriate, since "traditionalism", (as compared to Tradition) is in fact a dead faith.

The only thing truly telling here is what appears to be your opposition to the moral message conveyed (i.e. against abortion and masturbation), which you derisively label "'traditionalist' teachings." I hope I am reading you wrong.
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« Reply #186 on: December 03, 2007, 04:29:40 PM »

So you disagree with the OP...at least we're getting somewhere.

No, George did not, I did...I believe that if he wants to say as much he is perfectly capable of doing so himself.

God bless !

I have no problem if you, in your academic wisdom " buy" them or not- it is your decison, I only hope for you that they are not true and only "myths"- otherwise you would blaspheme the Holy Spirit.

But you like making jokes with Hell ( others you warned of condemnation - perhaps you forgot what you wrote a few posts before ) so go on...

In CHRIST

BTW - I am now out of the Thread, I have written enouph take it or take it not.
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« Reply #187 on: December 03, 2007, 04:36:07 PM »

Okay, I don't know about any other sane people reading this, but I am fast approaching the "how dare you" point.  I, among others, have absolutely tried to have a healthy discussion about such things.  But the fact that you are both continually slinging judgements and insults is absolutely disgusting, as far as I'm concerned, and I personally think this thread needs to be closed/locked/whatever it is that they do here.  I cannot believe the absolute un-Christian condemnations and judgements that are being thrown around here!  You couldn't sling a dead cat around the thread without hitting a judgement or condemnation by one of you two!  Who, in heaven's name, appointed you the judge over the rest of us!?!  You say that you stand for traditional Orthodoxy, but there is nothing Orthodox in what you say!  Orthodoxy is the faith of the love and tolerance of Christ!  Not the faith of judge-your-brother-because-he-doesn't-agree

How come all Roman Catholics I know call themselves catholic-ish?

I notice they respond to me the same as you do.

Orthodoxy is very difficult for some people to accept.

We have no (ish) conditions and other 'freedoms' (ish) type religions enjoy.

I am sorry you are having such a hard time with the Orthodox faith.

God help you.


 Your insult is unwarranted and definitely an illegal ad hominem attack.  You are free to believe what you wish, and attempt to convince others of your position.  But your condescending language is unwelcome.

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« Reply #188 on: December 03, 2007, 04:41:38 PM »

How come all Roman Catholics I know call themselves catholic-ish?

I notice they respond to me the same as you do.

Orthodoxy is very difficult for some people to accept.

We have no (ish) conditions and other 'freedoms' (ish) type religions enjoy.

I am sorry you are having such a hard time with the Orthodox faith.

God help you.



God help me?Huh  I see nothing more than another nasty, bitter, angry judgement with nothing fruitful to offer here.

I am not Roman Catholic, I am a baptized, Chrismated Orthodox Christian in the image and likeness of God, and, expect a little bit of respect as such.  I am also, btw, a Presbytera.  If you have a problem with my faith (obviously I don't, but obviously you seem to), then you may take it up with my husband, his name is Father Christos, or with my spiritual father, his name is Father Nick, and can be found running the seminary these days. 

Now, I'm tired of being judged by you holier-than-thou people who think you are so much more pious than everyone else.  Don't you judge me again.  I have no problem whatsoever reporting it.
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« Reply #189 on: December 03, 2007, 04:43:01 PM »

I hope I am reading you wrong. 

I think you are reading him wrong, but that's not your fault.
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"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
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Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Stratopedarches
*******
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Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 20,094


May the Lord bless you and keep you always!


« Reply #190 on: December 03, 2007, 04:44:42 PM »

Well, it seems everyone has made all the arguments they can, and then some.  We've now moved past the point of constructive discussion.

Let's cool off for awhile.  I encourage all involved to pray about this, read up on it, do whatever you need to.  But we're going to take a break from the discussion for awhile.

A blessed advent to all.

Cleveland, Global Moderator.
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"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
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