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Author Topic: women should not speak in church  (Read 19288 times) Average Rating: 0
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Lightspeed1000
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« on: November 27, 2007, 05:36:40 AM »

Dear all,

I was just wondering if in accordance with this passage from 1 Corinthians 14 :33-55 which reads-



“As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.”

Could this also relate to Christian Forums which are a community of 'Christians'or the 'Church' or 'saints',where we might have women teaching and instructing others on these Forums?

Thanks
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« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2007, 05:58:39 AM »

1) A Forum is not the Church.
2) Women do speak in the Church, and have done so in the past.
3) Women have instructed in the Church from the beginning. Part of the role of the Deaconess was to catechize female converts, and most Sunday Schools in my Archdiocese are taught by female catechism teachers. A Sunday School is a Church, a forum is not.
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« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2007, 06:09:47 AM »

So what does this passage mean-


“As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.”

Is not the Body of Christ which are the Christians the 'Church'?

Are we not all members of the church?

Whats the diference if a women teaches at sunday school or on a forum.

Doesnt St Paul say the women should be silent?and that it is a disgrace for them to speak and to 'teach' as i have read on some commenteries on this subject?
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« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2007, 06:32:52 AM »

“As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.”
Why does St Paul in the same Epistle permit women to prophesy in Church (1 Corinthians 11:5)?
Here is my little theory: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,12108.msg164161.html#msg164161


Is not the Body of Christ which are the Christians the 'Church'?
Yes.

Are we not all members of the church?
No.
 We have Atheists, Jews, and Agnostics as forum members. Our forum members also include many who are not in communion with one another. How can we on this forum therefore be "the Church" which you yourself defined as:"the Body of Christ which are the Christians"?

Whats the diference if a women teaches at sunday school or on a forum.
A Sunday School is the Church because it is composed of those fully received into the Church. A forum is not.

Doesnt St Paul say the women should be silent?and that it is a disgrace for them to speak and to 'teach' as i have read on some commenteries on this subject?
See above.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2007, 06:45:47 AM by ozgeorge » Logged

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« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2007, 06:37:49 AM »

So what does this passage mean-


“As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.”

Is not the Body of Christ which are the Christians the 'Church'?

Are we not all members of the church?

Whats the diference if a women teaches at sunday school or on a forum.

Doesnt St Paul say the women should be silent?and that it is a disgrace for them to speak and to 'teach' as i have read on some commenteries on this subject?

I guess we'll have to expel the Georgian Orthodox Church, as they were evangelized by a woman, St. Nina.

And we'll have to drop St. Mary of Egypt from the calendar.  How dare she instruct (a priest!) Zosimos on repentence.

And you women disciples of the Lord!  Don't you go telling anyone about the Resurrection!  Don't give me that apostle to the apostles, Mary Magdalene.
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« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2007, 06:57:34 AM »

Ialmisry,

may i ask what your understanding of this is-




“As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.”
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« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2007, 10:37:35 AM »

“As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.” 

Two questions:

1. What does the law say, and is it still applicable?  The verse specifically mentions "as the Law says," using it as the basis for its prohibition on women speaking.
2. Does the current social atmosphere, where women are now educated (they didn't have the same level of education in NT times) change the situation?
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« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2007, 01:30:23 PM »

“As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.”

This was written by Paul in response to discord in a particular Church caused by a small group of women, it is perhaps not the best approach but it is the approach he thought reasonable at the time. However, applying the ancient legal maxim 'cessante ratione legis cessat ipsa lex', as this particular situation in this particular Church no longer exists, the statement is void from a legal and canonical standpoint.
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« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2007, 01:43:43 PM »

I think an old OC.net classic is merited...

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,8894.msg148800.html#msg148800
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« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2007, 03:59:05 PM »

Could this also relate to Christian Forums which are a community of 'Christians'or the 'Church' or 'saints',where we might have women teaching and instructing others on these Forums?

Two problems that I see with this line of thinking ...

#1 - I do not see how an internet community comprised of people posting in near (or complete) anonymity and who do not all hold the same Christian beliefs can be considered "the Church."

#2 - I do not see that anyone here (male or female) is teaching in any definitive manner.  Rather this is a group of diverse individuals who share their opinions and knowledge but very rarely offer any "instruction."  Even the wonderful priests who volunteer their time share freely their knowledge and opinions but nearly always conclude with the advice to seek the counsel of one's own priest. 

I believe it is a stretch (of grand proportions) to try to call an internet message board the Church or the free exchange of opinions as teaching.
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« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2007, 04:11:13 PM »

I guess we'll have to expel the Georgian Orthodox Church, as they were evangelized by a woman, St. Nina.

And we'll have to drop St. Mary of Egypt from the calendar.  How dare she instruct (a priest!) Zosimos on repentence.

And you women disciples of the Lord!  Don't you go telling anyone about the Resurrection!  Don't give me that apostle to the apostles, Mary Magdalene.

God bless !

Is not also St. Thekla called "equal to the Apostels" and Protomartyr of women?



....Her mother, enraged, persuaded the judge to sentence St. Thekla to burn to death. Emboldened by her love for Christ, she made the sign of the Cross over the flames, and was surrounded by a light, untouched by the flames. Rain, and hail extinguished the fire, and, with thunder, helped to drive away those who wished to put Thekla to death.

She sought out St. Paul and his companions, including St. Barnabas, who were hiding in a cave near the city. She spread the gospel of Christ with them in Antioch, and throughout her life performed many miraculous feats and suffered many tortures to give glory to God. Having retired to a desolate region of Isaurian Seleucia with the blessing of St. Paul, Thekla continued to preach God's word and heal His children.
When St. Thekla had reached the age of 90, envious pagan sorcerors came to defile her. A large rock split open when St. Thekla called on Christ the Savior to help her, and the rock covered her, and she offered up her soul to the Lord.

"The Protomartyr Thekla, a prayerful intercessor for ascetics, is also invoked during the tonsure of women into monasticism."

IN CHRIST
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« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2007, 06:18:55 PM »

Two problems that I see with this line of thinking ...

#1 - I do not see how an internet community comprised of people posting in near (or complete) anonymity and who do not all hold the same Christian beliefs can be considered "the Church."

#2 - I do not see that anyone here (male or female) is teaching in any definitive manner.  Rather this is a group of diverse individuals who share their opinions and knowledge but very rarely offer any "instruction."  Even the wonderful priests who volunteer their time share freely their knowledge and opinions but nearly always conclude with the advice to seek the counsel of one's own priest. 

I believe it is a stretch (of grand proportions) to try to call an internet message board the Church or the free exchange of opinions as teaching.

Im speaking about for example,i am on another Orthodox Forum where all the Members are Orthodox except one or two Roman Catholics,so here we have all members of the community who are part of the Church  communicating with eachother ,Do we have to be all together in one building to call us a church,if Christians live out in the open desert are they not part of the church?

A community of Christians who are all members of the church,and i just asked what the role of women should be within these communities whether they be on an All Christian Forum ,or in the desert,or a monastery or inside a Cathedral or Church building or at Home in accordance to St Pauls Teaching about women being silent and submissive to their husbands ,and i wanting to learn must ask their husbands or Father in their Homes.

Heres some reading-

http://www.bethelministries.com/subjection.htm

Fixed quote box - Ukiemeister
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« Reply #12 on: November 27, 2007, 07:46:39 PM »


Ah, that was certainly one of my better posts. Thanks for reminding me about it.
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« Reply #13 on: November 27, 2007, 07:53:50 PM »

Im speaking about for example,i am on another Orthodox Forum where all the Members are Orthodox except one or two Roman Catholics,so here we have all members of the community who are part of the Church  communicating with eachother ,Do we have to be all together in one building to call us a church,if Christians live out in the open desert are they not part of the church?

A community of Christians who are all members of the church,and i just asked what the role of women should be within these communities whether they be on an All Christian Forum ,or in the desert,or a monastery or inside a Cathedral or Church building or at Home in accordance to St Pauls Teaching about women being silent and submissive to their husbands ,and i wanting to learn must ask their husbands or Father in their Homes.

Heres some reading-

http://www.bethelministries.com/subjection.htm

Fixed quote box - Ukiemeister


Mr. Lightspeed, who states he is a member of the ROCOR, wants us to read a Protestant site (Bethel ministries) to prove his point that women should be silent in church and on Orthodox forums.   Roll Eyes

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« Reply #14 on: November 27, 2007, 08:02:21 PM »

A community of Christians who are all members of the church,and i just asked what the role of women should be within these communities whether they be on an All Christian Forum ,or in the desert,or a monastery or inside a Cathedral or Church building or at Home in accordance to St Pauls Teaching about women being silent and submissive to their husbands ,and i wanting to learn must ask their husbands or Father in their Homes.

What role should they have? Well if you ask me (which you accidently just implied that you did Grin) I would say every role up to and including the episcopacy, patriarchal thrones inclusive. It is my solemn prayer that before I die I can write a letter of congratulations to Her All-Holiness, the Oecumenical Patriarch (though in all probability only great advancements in the miracles of science could preserve my life for so long).

As for the dominate/submissive lifestyle you seem to be trying to Christianize at the end of the above paragraph, I don't care what you do behind closed doors with a willing partner, but I personally don't want to hear about your paraphilia.
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« Reply #15 on: November 27, 2007, 08:43:12 PM »

Let's not forget St. Helen, "who found the Precious Cross," is "Equal to the Apostles."
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« Reply #16 on: November 27, 2007, 11:34:59 PM »

Let's not forget St. Helen, "who found the Precious Cross," is "Equal to the Apostles."

There are others as well who are "Equal to the Apostles," or even just called "Apostles" (St. Priscilla).
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« Reply #17 on: November 28, 2007, 12:27:59 AM »

There are others as well who are "Equal to the Apostles," or even just called "Apostles" (St. Priscilla).

Acts 18:26: He (Apollos) began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they invited him to their home and explained to him the way of God more adequately.

Emphasis added.

I would like to ask the OP what might be the reason for this subject to come up?

Sometimes the "why" behind something can be very significant

Ebor
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« Reply #18 on: November 28, 2007, 01:03:08 AM »

Mr. Lightspeed, who states he is a member of the ROCOR, wants us to read a Protestant site (Bethel ministries) to prove his point that women should be silent in church and on Orthodox forums.   Roll Eyes





In terms of prophesying, both men and women prophesied under the inspiration of the Paraclete as was the case in Corinth. But women had to cover their head when prophesying, unlike men who had no need of a head covering (1 Corinthians 11 : 4 – 5). Although men and women were equal in God’s eyes, a man was a man and a woman should thus remain a woman. Each of the sexes had a specific function to fulfill in terms of God’s plan. Women had to wear a veil so as not to dishonour their head who is man. Furthermore, according to 1 Corinthians 14 : 1 - 40, Paul insists that order must be maintained during worship and that “the woman should keep silence in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak (lalein)” but rather “keep silence” (sigan), (vs. 34 – 35). If women wish to know anything they should ask their husbands at home. This probably arises due to the habit of women to ask questions of those who were functioning in the Gifts which resulted in worship being disturbed and disrupted. Timothy backs this up in Timothy 2 : 11, where he asserts “let  a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness”. In both 1 Timothy 2 and 1 Corinthians 11, we see that male and female have distinct divinely appointed places in the order of Creation. This mode of thinking was very much in line with the Jewish mentality which according to Mosaic Law did not give great value to the witness of women in terms of religious issues.

In  1 Corinthians 1, 2 – 16, Paul refers to the appropriate behaviour in worship (Conzelmann 1975 : 182). God is the model of the sexes who are created in His image (Genesis 1 , 26-27). In Greek custom, women attended worship without a veil on the head and with short hair and men attended with long hair (Chrysostom, in Homily XXVI on 1 Corinthians). Paul according to Theodoret, Interpretation of 1 Corinthians 11 : 11-35, undoubtedly frowned on this as it was an affront to the order of creation.

As women were not allowed to teach or have authority over men they were unable to become an episkopos or presbyter who would instruct a community of believers( 1 Timothy 3 : 2 – 5). Just as the order of the Triune Godhead  and their mutual relationship cannot be altered, so too cannot be altered the order of humanity and the mutual relationship of women and men in the order of creation which is restored in the Ekklesia (Voulgaris 1996 : 40). If male and female reverse their exclusive roles then they are also reversing their personal qualities and therefore also their mutual relationship. This is intolerable for Paul who recognizes the specific role and function of each of the sexes just as each of the members of the Triune Godhead have a specific role and function. On a human level, man “reflects what God is on the divine level” (Ibid. 40-42). The order of Creation goes back to God the Father (Ephesians 3 : 14 – 15) who is the source of all existence. Man’s ascendancy over women goes back to Creation where man was created first (1 Corinthians 11 : Cool. Furthermore, woman was created for man as a helper (Genesis 2 :18). Nonetheless, woman is of the same ousia (nature) as man as she originates from him just as by analogy, Jesus Christ and the Paraclete emanate from God the Father: “God the Father is Christ’s head as his generator and projector and is homoousios ; man is woman’s head because he, too, is her generator and projector and homoousios with her. The analogy is consequent and proper…”(Photius in Cramer, ed., CGP, Vol.V : 208).

A deaconess had far less to do in her role than her male counterpart and she was thus far less important than a male deacon although her pastoral care and administrative abilities were greatly valued by the communities in which they served. Despite this adherents were acutely aware that Jesus Christ did not authorize women to preach His Word with any apostolic authority. The Eastern Orthodox Church is thus faithful to the example set by Jesus concerning only male priesthood. It was the main task of the Apostles to preach the gospel, kerygma and didache : “in public and from house to house"”(Acts 20 : 18 -–1). Paul asked Timothy : “what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also” (2 Timothy 2 :2).

http://dlibrary.acu.edu.au/research/theology/ejournal/aejt_4/Nicolaides.htm
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« Reply #19 on: November 28, 2007, 01:38:18 AM »

In Greek custom, women attended worship without a veil on the head and with short hair and men attended with long hair (Chrysostom, in Homily XXVI on 1 Corinthians). Paul according to Theodoret, Interpretation of 1 Corinthians 11 : 11-35, undoubtedly frowned on this as it was an affront to the order of creation.

I find it intersting, considering we evolved without either clothing or skill in barbery, that one could argue that certain hair and clothing styles are natural to one gender or the other. Even if one believes the Genesis myth, we were created naked and still without skill in barbery. So how could veils be natural? We certainly didn't evolve with them, the entire argument seems nonsensical. And while it could be argued that long hair on women is in line with the 'order of creation', the same argument would imply that this is true of men too. Did the author of this article actually think about what he was saying from an even semi-objective standpoint or was he so anxious to get published that he just threw down on paper anything he thought would receive a rubber stamp from a far-right catholic organization? I'm guessing the latter is most likely the case.

Of course, this author is free to present whatever nonsense he wishes, and the editors are free to publish whatever they wish, regardless of how it discredits their publication (possibly not a big concern with an 'e-journal'). But by the same right, I am free to dismiss this nonsense for what it is. Again, this entire argument is negated by the ancient legal maxim ''cessante ratione legis cessat ipsa lex'. However, I find it interesting that while a cornerstone of the misogynists' arguments is that exclusion from clerical orders in no way diminishes the equality of the genders or the importance of a person. Yes, this author clearly states, 'A deaconess...was thus far less important than a male deacon.' So much for that line of propaganda. I'll keep this quote in mind for our future discussions on this matter, I don't know that you understand how great of a rhetorical blow you just dealt your cause.
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« Reply #20 on: November 28, 2007, 02:29:47 AM »

Don't forget St. Tamara, she was Queen and ruler of Georgia, who ushered in the golden age of Orthodoxy for her subjects. Yet she was courageous enough to ride into battle with her soldiers to defeat the muslims who had invaded her country. Her fearlessness inspired many of those muslims to convert.

Sorry...Mr. LS...we no longer live in the dark ages...our church needs women to lead in a variety of ways. My bishop gave me an order to get over my shyness and fear of public speaking because he needed me to be a leader for one of his ministries.
I complied with Sayidna's wishes.
The days of women only working in the kitchen are over   Wink
There is much work to be done!
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« Reply #21 on: November 28, 2007, 03:03:06 AM »

My bishop gave me an order to get over my shyness and fear of public speaking because he needed me to be a leader for one of his ministries.
I complied with Sayidna's wishes.
The days of women only working in the kitchen are over   Wink
There is much work to be done!

You were shy at one time?   Cheesy
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« Reply #22 on: November 28, 2007, 09:48:56 AM »

Mr. Lightspeed, who states he is a member of the ROCOR, wants us to read a Protestant site (Bethel ministries) to prove his point that women should be silent in church and on Orthodox forums.   Roll Eyes



That is quite interesting, isn't it?  Not just a Protestant site, but a rather far afield Evangelical Protestant site whose "Doctrinal Statement" asserts a great many things that no Orthodox (or Catholic) Christian could possibly agree to without placing one's soul in serious peril (you know that pesky heresy thing).  And that is what he proposes as evidence to support his theories?  Hmmm ... Seems a bit odd to me.
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« Reply #23 on: November 28, 2007, 02:45:07 PM »

Two questions:

1. What does the law say, and is it still applicable?  The verse specifically mentions "as the Law says," using it as the basis for its prohibition on women speaking.
2. Does the current social atmosphere, where women are now educated (they didn't have the same level of education in NT times) change the situation?

I find it interesting that this post by cleveland was virtually ignored by Mr. Lightspeed.  Is that because you can't answer the questions without discrediting your own opinion?

I don't guess I need to state how I feel about the subject, considering that I am a Presbytera who is VERY active in the church, and (don't let me scandalize you, Mr. LS) I teach Sunday School...

I would like to hear (*read*) the opinions of others with regards to this posting by Cleveland, because IMHO, the questions themselves, not to mention their answers, are an excellent response to the OP.
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« Reply #24 on: November 28, 2007, 06:40:34 PM »

I'm uncomfortable with women being and reading the epistle because of these verses.  Have women historically served in these ways or is this a recent development?  I'd feel much better if I knew women had commonly served in these ways before the rise of feminism.
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« Reply #25 on: November 28, 2007, 07:07:04 PM »

I'm uncomfortable with women being and reading the epistle because of these verses.  Have women historically served in these ways or is this a recent development?  I'd feel much better if I knew women had commonly served in these ways before the rise of feminism.

If I may, I would like to bring up something that is *required* for a person to read the Epistle:

Literacy.

In the past it was not universal or even  common in most of the world for the general population, both male and female.  Chances for education were limited and in parts of the world today they still are.  It is more common for a boy to go to school in parts of Asia and Africa then for a girl because she is expected to stay at home and do chores while the boy might have a chance for better paying work.  Even in Europe and the United States a drive for universal literacy has only been around in the last 200 years or so. 

Education was often found in monestaries and convents. Women were taught to read there and I have read of and heard nuns reading Scripture passages during worship.

What do you consider to be the date of the rise of feminism, please?  The call for rights for women is not a 20th century phenomenon and I would like to suggest that women who were not able to read or write or get other education were not able to spread develope ideas of equality either.

May I ask why the idea of a woman reading the scriptures aloud in church makes you uncomfortable, please?

Ebor
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« Reply #26 on: November 28, 2007, 07:24:14 PM »

If I may, I would like to bring up something that is *required* for a person to read the Epistle:

Literacy.

In the past it was not universal or even  common in most of the world for the general population, both male and female.  Chances for education were limited and in parts of the world today they still are.  It is more common for a boy to go to school in parts of Asia and Africa then for a girl because she is expected to stay at home and do chores while the boy might have a chance for better paying work.  Even in Europe and the United States a drive for universal literacy has only been around in the last 200 years or so. 

Education was often found in monestaries and convents. Women were taught to read there and I have read of and heard nuns reading Scripture passages during worship.

What do you consider to be the date of the rise of feminism, please?  The call for rights for women is not a 20th century phenomenon and I would like to suggest that women who were not able to read or write or get other education were not able to spread develope ideas of equality either.

May I ask why the idea of a woman reading the scriptures aloud in church makes you uncomfortable, please?

Ebor

Mmmm-Hmmmm.   Right on.  This gets back to my 2 questions (which remain unaswered by anyone, let alone the person they were directed to):

(I adjusted the size to make them more readable in the quote)

Two questions:

1. What does the law say, and is it still applicable?  The verse specifically mentions "as the Law says," using it as the basis for its prohibition on women speaking.
2. Does the current social atmosphere, where women are now educated (they didn't have the same level of education in NT times) change the situation?
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« Reply #27 on: November 28, 2007, 07:28:42 PM »

I'm uncomfortable with women being and reading the epistle because of these verses.  Have women historically served in these ways or is this a recent development?  I'd feel much better if I knew women had commonly served in these ways before the rise of feminism.

Dr. Valerie A. Karras discusses several of the ways that women have historically served in liturgical roles in her article "The Liturgical Functions of Consecrated Women in the Byzantine Church," originally published in Theological Studies, Vol. 66, 2005.

Part of it is available online here:
http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/gi_0199-4364060/The-liturgical-functions-of-consecrated.html
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« Reply #28 on: November 28, 2007, 11:59:11 PM »

Mmmm-Hmmmm.   Right on.  This gets back to my 2 questions (which remain unaswered by anyone, let alone the person they were directed to):

(I adjusted the size to make them more readable in the quote)

So was St Paul speaking as an antiChristian Pharisee when he said this or as an Apostle with instructions to all the Gentile Christians to come with  these words filled with the Holy Spirit and forever eternal and unchanging regardless of the changing times?
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« Reply #29 on: November 29, 2007, 12:29:53 AM »

So was St Paul speaking as an antiChristian Pharisee when he said this or as an Apostle with instructions to all the Gentile Christians to come with  these words filled with the Holy Spirit and forever eternal and unchanging regardless of the changing times? 

Don't answer my questions with a question, especially one that doesn't apply to my questions!

As to your question (someone has to answer questions posed here!), who said anything about St. Paul speaking as a Pharisee?  I surely didn't - so don't set up the strawman.

As for "forever and unchanging words," there are other things that St. Paul mentions in the NT that were applicable for the Church at that time, but aren't anymore: prohibitions on divorce, etc.  Not everything that St. Paul said was intended for posterity: he was indeed writing to historical churches that existed at a particular time and place!  So again, don't set up the strawman that we're somehow questioning St. Paul's wisdom or authority or whatnot.  Answer my question, or explicitly refuse to do so.
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« Reply #30 on: November 29, 2007, 01:21:41 AM »

yes ,your majesty
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« Reply #31 on: November 29, 2007, 01:26:16 AM »

yes ,your majesty

You still didn't answer his questions.
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« Reply #32 on: November 29, 2007, 01:31:43 AM »

Looking back to the top ,it seems i wasnt the first one to answer a question with a question.
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« Reply #33 on: November 29, 2007, 01:38:18 AM »

Looking back to the top ,it seems i wasnt the first one to answer a question with a question.

Your point being?...

You still didn't answer his questions.
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« Reply #34 on: November 29, 2007, 01:43:16 AM »

Looking back to the top ,it seems i wasnt the first one to answer a question with a question.
You're avoiding the issue.  Just answer the questions.
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« Reply #35 on: November 29, 2007, 01:51:30 AM »

What role should they have? Well if you ask me (which you accidently just implied that you did Grin) I would say every role up to and including the episcopacy, patriarchal thrones inclusive. It is my solemn prayer that before I die I can write a letter of congratulations to Her All-Holiness, the Oecumenical Patriarch (though in all probability only great advancements in the miracles of science could preserve my life for so long).
I am somewhat surprised to read this. What percentage of Orthodox Christians are in favor of women priests? For R Catholics, the issue is said to be closed. For example, according to Pope John Paul II: "Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church's divine constitution itself, in virtue of Our ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32) We declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church's faithful."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordinatio_Sacerdotalis
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« Reply #36 on: November 29, 2007, 01:52:11 AM »

If you look back to my original questions ,and then look at Clevelands first post,you will see that he does not answer my questions,but ASKS ME questions.

So then in his last post ,he tells me not to answer his question with a question.

Come on mate,

So let him answer my original questions.
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« Reply #37 on: November 29, 2007, 02:02:45 AM »

I am somewhat surprised to read this. What percentage of Orthodox Christians are in favor of women priests? For R Catholics, the issue is said to be closed. For example, according to Pope John Paul II: "Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church's divine constitution itself, in virtue of Our ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32) We declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church's faithful."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordinatio_Sacerdotalis

I wouldn't be congradulating yourselves so soon, the immortal idea of liberté, égalité, ou la mort is here to stay. And while we may suffer setbacks from time to time, the ideal itself will not be defeated and will continue to threaten your social order.

And no despot, temporal or ecclesiastical, can overturn this reality. Wink
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« Reply #38 on: November 29, 2007, 02:04:42 AM »

If you look back to my original questions ,and then look at Clevelands first post,you will see that he does not answer my questions,but ASKS ME questions.

So then in his last post ,he tells me not to answer his question with a question.

Come on mate,

So let him answer my original questions.

George had already answered your questions for you.
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« Reply #39 on: November 29, 2007, 02:06:52 AM »

So was Clevelands first post a reply to me or to George?

I believe it was to me.

He directs me to answer his questions,while before hand he responds to me with two questions,doesnt matter what the others have said,i respect their replies.

The point is Cleveland responded to me with Questions first,and then he gives it to me for doing the same.
 
My questions have been asked and i have read the responses and i like some of them and agree.

But I may ask again ,"When in fact is it a Disgrace ,as St Paul says ,for women to speak in the Church.?

Maybe its been answered ,"for those Prostitutes of Corinth to speak"

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« Reply #40 on: November 29, 2007, 02:11:30 AM »

I am somewhat surprised to read this. What percentage of Orthodox Christians are in favor of women priests? For R Catholics, the issue is said to be closed. For example, according to Pope John Paul II: "Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church's divine constitution itself, in virtue of Our ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32) We declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church's faithful."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordinatio_Sacerdotalis


A very small percentage. I am not for it. But I also do not believe women should be silent and only do their ministry in the parish kitchen. These super conservative Orthodox misogynists are a dying breed.
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« Reply #41 on: November 29, 2007, 02:19:48 AM »

But I may ask again ,"When in fact is it a Disgrace ,as St Paul says ,for women to speak in the Church.?

Maybe its been answered ,"for those Prostitutes of Corinth to speak"

cessante ratione legis cessat ipsa lex

So are you going to answer his questions now, or at least clearly state that you refuse to do so?
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« Reply #42 on: November 29, 2007, 02:26:40 AM »

i dont have to do anything for you buddy,

your pushing me to answer questions for somebody who originally didnt directly answer my questions.

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« Reply #43 on: November 29, 2007, 02:27:37 AM »

Dr. Valerie A. Karras discusses several of the ways that women have historically served in liturgical roles in her article "The Liturgical Functions of Consecrated Women in the Byzantine Church," originally published in Theological Studies, Vol. 66, 2005.

Dr. Karras often raises some legitimate points in her work.  Unfortunately, partly through the testimony and argument of other scholars I have found her to be one who has an "axe to grind" in ways that make it difficult for me to trust her objectivity.  
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« Reply #44 on: November 29, 2007, 02:29:33 AM »

i dont have to do anything for you buddy,

your pushing me to answer questions for somebody who originally didnt directly answer my questions.

No, you don't have to...and what exactly makes you think I really want you to? Every time you refuse to answer the reasonable questions directed at you you simply aid my cause and weaken your own. Even though I'm sure cleveland would rather engage you in honest dialogue than be party to my propaganda. Wink
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