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Author Topic: Patriarch Bartholomew is ready to accept the Pope's primacy  (Read 29450 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: November 27, 2007, 03:23:44 AM »

http://www.interfax-religion.ru/?act=news&div=21629
I don't know if there is any English version of the news anywhere.

The matter of article is that patriarch Bartholomew said that he is ready to accept the Pope's primacy as it was before 1054, and to become the second patriarch in the Christian world, as it also was before 1054. Also he told that the point of the present dialogue with catholics is to clarify the meaning of the term "primacy" and the purview of the Pope's authorities.
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« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2007, 03:46:02 AM »

This is really good news to hear although I see no amazing paradigm  shifts as this should already be normative Orthodox belief.
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« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2007, 04:44:54 AM »

I haven't read the news item, but it's not a real change in the position the Ecumenical Patriarchate has enunciated since the 1960's, during the patriarchy of Athenagoras, of thrice blessed memory.  The EP has since that time addressed the Roman Pope as "Elder Brother."    The Pope's primacy is recognized consistant with the "First Among Equals" ecclesiology, as is understood by the Orthodox.  At the Ecumenical Doxology held at The Phanar one year ago, Pope Benedict was commemorated, first, before Patriarch Bartholomew, at the petition for the presiding hierarch, "Again we pray for our..."

Patriarch Bartholomew would also have to know that most of the Orthodox Church, including those under his immediate jurisdiction, would not follow him into communion with Roman Catholicism.  This is, I believe, ecumenical rhetoric; demonstrating his sincerity toward the dialogue/reapproachment process.-BWT
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« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2007, 11:41:53 AM »

Well, well...Of course the bishop of Rome, the patriarch of all the west will be the first among the equals - when the unity of the Roman & the eastern churches at one beautifull day is reality.
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« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2007, 12:10:59 PM »

I know that I would accept the Pope's primacy in a reunion. So long as everything went back to the way it  used to be.
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« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2007, 09:29:24 PM »

Well, well...Of course the bishop of Rome, the patriarch of all the west will be the first among the equals - when the unity of the Roman & the eastern churches at one beautifull day is reality.

Well, he can't now.  He's says he's NOT the patriarch of all the west.
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« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2007, 10:28:14 PM »

I also would accept the Pope of Rome as the first among equals, if he does away with the heresies the Roman Church has fallen into.
John Paul II made great strides in reforming the Roman Liturgy, he restored the Little and Great entrances, and added an epiclecus during the Roman Anaphora.
I also feel they need to restore Leavened Bread.
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« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2007, 10:50:44 PM »

The article quoted the Patriarch as saying the following (roughly):

"We, orthodox, are convinced that in the first millennium of the existence of the church, in the times of the undivided church, the superiority of the bishop of Rome, the Pope, was acknowledged. However, this superiority this was honorary, in the form of love, without being juridical supremacy which  must be by entire Christian church "

this is the standard Orthodox position and is nothing really new.
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« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2007, 11:16:32 PM »

John Paul II made great strides in reforming the Roman Liturgy, he restored the Little and Great entrances, and added an epiclecus during the Roman Anaphora.

Did he? I wasn't aware that he made changes to the Mass.
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« Reply #9 on: November 28, 2007, 12:52:57 AM »

actually the Mass was cut up and made very vague and lots of petitions to the Mother of God and saints were eliminated...Benedict sees the need for a stronger, traditional, and more unified liturgy within the RC church.
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« Reply #10 on: November 28, 2007, 01:39:09 AM »

I haven't read the news item, but it's not a real change in the position the Ecumenical Patriarchate has enunciated since the 1960's, during the patriarchy of Athenagoras, of thrice blessed memory.  The EP has since that time addressed the Roman Pope as "Elder Brother."    The Pope's primacy is recognized consistant with the "First Among Equals" ecclesiology, as is understood by the Orthodox.  At the Ecumenical Doxology held at The Phanar one year ago, Pope Benedict was commemorated, first, before Patriarch Bartholomew, at the petition for the presiding hierarch, "Again we pray for our..."

Yes, that was remarkable. I also thought it was amazing when Pope Benedict alone recited the Pater Noster in Greek during the Divine Liturgy. And the mutual blessing, first Bartholomew in Greek and Benedict in Latin.

I believe the Lord was well pleased by those glorious several days.  
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« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2007, 02:15:59 AM »

Well, he can't now.  He's says he's NOT the patriarch of all the west.

He still is, whatever the "West" means anymore, the Latin Church being in every corner of the globe. The Vatican only dropped it from the annual yearbook because they say it is no longer "useful" as a title. Not sure if it was a good idea, but it's just a title, and it didn't make it into the yearbook until 1863 anyway. The reality---that the Bishop of Rome is patriarch of the Latin Church---still exists.
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« Reply #12 on: November 28, 2007, 02:31:13 AM »

actually the Mass was cut up and made very vague and lots of petitions to the Mother of God and saints were eliminated...Benedict sees the need for a stronger, traditional, and more unified liturgy within the RC church.

The explicit epicleses were added to the three new Eucharistic Prayers by Pope Paul VI's Apostolic Constitution Missale Romanum in 1969, establishing the Novus Ordo. Not that an explicit one is needed, of course. The original Roman Canon, or Eucharistic Prayer 1, has an implied one.

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« Reply #13 on: November 28, 2007, 02:32:33 AM »

Did he? I wasn't aware that he made changes to the Mass.

Only minor changes in the 2002 revision of the Missale Romanum.
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« Reply #14 on: November 28, 2007, 03:05:08 AM »

Pater Noster

Things are getting goofier back on the other side of the Tiber... is saying the "Lord's Prayer" or even "the Our Father" no longer in vogue? 

El Papa might get a bit more Eastern love when he returns all the gold and treasures taken during the fourth crusade.  Since he excommunicated us, it was OK to steal from us since we were no longer Christians.  But since the excommunications were rescinded, it's time to return to all the booty.

This is a never ending circle.  The Orthodox were more than happy to steal Greek Catholic parishes in Transylvania and Western Ukraine.  And I guess since talking about Jews as Christ-killers isn't the norm anymore it is time to make reparations for those pogroms... or we could all grow up and stop living in the past.  Perhaps God is the God of the living and not the dead.
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« Reply #15 on: November 28, 2007, 03:30:29 AM »

Things are getting goofier back on the other side of the Tiber... is saying the "Lord's Prayer" or even "the Our Father" no longer in vogue? 

 Smiley

Whenever I hear Pope Benedict say it, he says it in Latin (with the exception at the Phanar last year). I pray it about 95% of the time in Latin.

I've seen all three names used pretty interchangeably, though Pater Noster seems to me to be the best "Catholic" title for it, as most of our traditional prayers, hymns and liturgical bits are named by their first lines in Latin (Te Deum, Gloria in Excelsis, Asperges, Sanctus/Benedictus, De Profundis, Stabat Mater, Anima Christi, Veni Sancte Spritus, Tantum Ergo, Angelus, Ubi Caritas, Adeste Fideles, Adoro Te Devote, Panis Angelicus, O Salutaris Hostia, Tu Es Petrus, Salve Regina, etc. etc. etc.
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« Reply #16 on: November 28, 2007, 04:40:26 AM »

Whenever I hear Pope Benedict say it, he says it in Latin (with the exception at the Phanar last year). I pray it about 95% of the time in Latin.

I've seen all three names used pretty interchangeably, though Pater Noster seems to me to be the best "Catholic" title for it, as most of our traditional prayers, hymns and liturgical bits are named by their first lines in Latin

OK. Then I will use "Отче наш" in this forum every time when I want to mention the Lord's Prayer. Because I never prayed it in English or in Latin. As well as Символ Веры, Богородица Дева радуйся, Царю Небесный Утешителю, etc.
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« Reply #17 on: November 28, 2007, 10:58:34 AM »

I know that I would accept the Pope's primacy in a reunion. So long as everything went back to the way it  used to be.

Well we certainly know that it wont go back to the way is was way back when.  For one the Roman Catholics will insist on keeping their dogmas of the Immaculate Conception, Filioque, Purgatory, their version of Original sin etc etc etc.  How can anyone be talking union when we are at odds with these dogmas, and we know that the Eastern Catholics forfeited their beliefs and are obliged to believe Rome's innovations in faith.  So, is Rome going to be satisfied with a union where she believes one way and the eastern half believes another?Huh??    I don't think so.

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« Reply #18 on: November 28, 2007, 03:42:01 PM »

If one really wants to heal a rift, let's first try and re-unite with our Oriental Orthodox brothers.  We have much more common ground, less differences in theology or erroneous doctrine, and no offense meant, but the thought of reunification with OO Christianity doesn't scare me silly like it does with the RC church. 

Does anyone remember that scene in the movie It's a Wonderful Life when George Bailey shakes hands with Mr. Potter in the bank after briefly accepting a job, then turns it down when he realizes he was just about to sell his soul?   Unless Rome makes some huge changes and concessions, it's going to be us Orthodox who are going to be wiping our hands off.  We'll be swallowed up whole and come out on the other end sanitized, stripped down liturgically and doctrinally, and about as significant in our witness to the fullness of faith as something that had just been deposited from the back end of a beast.
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« Reply #19 on: November 28, 2007, 03:47:19 PM »

OK. Then I will use "Отче наш" in this forum every time when I want to mention the Lord's Prayer. Because I never prayed it in English or in Latin. As well as Символ Веры, Богородица Дева радуйся, Царю Небесный Утешителю, etc.

I was just explaining why I called it Pater Noster. It wasn't a conscious decision. I've also called it by the other two names.
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« Reply #20 on: November 28, 2007, 03:49:41 PM »

Tell it, TinaG!
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« Reply #21 on: November 28, 2007, 04:07:07 PM »

Sheesh...can't we just forget about the Fourth Crusade? Is Christ really going to come down, look at the Catholics and say, "AHA! You still have horses outside of St. Marks Basilica! Well, I guess I know where to put you know."

Okay, folks - Simayan's above comment is in reference to the discussion about the 4th Crusade, which now has it's own thread:

What to do with the booty (and memory) of the 4th Crusade?
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13596.0.html

- Cleveland, Global Moderator


As for the OO...don't even get me started. If all sides could calmly sit down and have a civil discussion about it, I'm positive the rift could be healed. Moreover, our Bishop has given the priest at our church permission to give any and all OOs communion. I think that speaks for itself in how small the difference really is.
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« Reply #22 on: November 28, 2007, 04:08:32 PM »

Sheesh...can't we just forget about the Fourth Crusade? Is Christ really going to come down, look at the Catholics and say, "AHA! You still have horses outside of St. Marks Basilica! Well, I guess I know where to put you know."


As for the OO...don't even get me started. If all sides could calmly sit down and have a civil discussion about it, I'm positive the rift could be healed. Moreover, our Bishop has given the priest at our church permission to give any and all OOs communion. I think that speaks for itself in how small the difference really is.

Well they've been calmly sitting down for 70 years at the WCC and the Faith and Order to chat along with several EO-OO conferences and nothing has happened yet.
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« Reply #23 on: November 28, 2007, 04:20:24 PM »

I've seen all three names used pretty interchangeably, though Pater Noster seems to me to be the best "Catholic" title for it, as most of our traditional prayers, hymns and liturgical bits are named by their first lines in Latin (Te Deum, Gloria in Excelsis, Asperges, Sanctus/Benedictus, De Profundis, Stabat Mater, Anima Christi, Veni Sancte Spritus, Tantum Ergo, Angelus, Ubi Caritas, Adeste Fideles, Adoro Te Devote, Panis Angelicus, O Salutaris Hostia, Tu Es Petrus, Salve Regina, etc. etc. etc.

In normal, daily speech I don't think I have ever heard a Catholic say "Pater Noster."  Especially when posting on an Anglophone Orthodox forum it seems rather out of place...and for the record I know most of the above mentioned hymns by heart in Latin, so I'm hardly a latinophobe.  My impression at least - and I'm probably one of the more philocatholic posters here - is that it shows you are making little attempt to actually understand Orthodoxy from an Orthodox person's perspective.

If one really wants to heal a rift, let's first try and re-unite with our Oriental Orthodox brothers.  We have much more common ground, less differences in theology or erroneous doctrine, and no offense meant, but the thought of reunification with OO Christianity doesn't scare me silly like it does with the RC church. 

Does anyone remember that scene in the movie It's a Wonderful Life when George Bailey shakes hands with Mr. Potter in the bank after briefly accepting a job, then turns it down when he realizes he was just about to sell his soul?   Unless Rome makes some huge changes and concessions, it's going to be us Orthodox who are going to be wiping our hands off.  We'll be swallowed up whole and come out on the other end sanitized, stripped down liturgically and doctrinally, and about as significant in our witness to the fullness of faith as something that had just been deposited from the back end of a beast.


This is absolutely ludicrous to vilify the current Catholic Church as having these diabolical intentions.    Theological disputes aside, it'd be a hard case to make that people like Pope John Paul II were anything but saintly men. 

 

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« Reply #24 on: November 28, 2007, 04:36:19 PM »

Sorry, statute has not expired except to RCs who prefer not to recognize the crusade and the Latin aftermath as the event that made the schism permanent. I only have negative feelings for dismissive RCs on  this issue. But this has been argued before and doesn't belong in this board.

I have never denied this. Ever. 1204 and 1453 are far more important dates than 1054. I have always seen it as a terrible crime and tragedy, ever since I read (as a kid) a time-travel novel called The Trolley to Yesterday by John Bellairs that featured the ghosts of Templar knights assisting the Greeks in Constantinople at the final siege as a penance for what they participated in 250 years earlier. The book itself launched me on the Byzantium craze I had as a teenager (and which has remained).

I believe our recent popes have profusely apologized for it and backed it up by returning the sacred relics. And Innocent III originally excommunicated those responsible. So it's not as if we are like Turkey with Armenia. It's pointless to bring this sad event up as some sort of outstanding grievance. It's long past.
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« Reply #25 on: November 28, 2007, 04:39:56 PM »

Okay, folks - Simayan's above comment is in reference to the discussion about the 4th Crusade, which now has it's own thread:

What to do with the booty (and memory) of the 4th Crusade?
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13596.0.html

- Cleveland, Global Moderator
 
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« Reply #26 on: November 28, 2007, 04:46:48 PM »

In normal, daily speech I don't think I have ever heard a Catholic say "Pater Noster."  Especially when posting on an Anglophone Orthodox forum it seems rather out of place...and for the record I know most of the above mentioned hymns by heart in Latin, so I'm hardly a latinophobe.  My impression at least - and I'm probably one of the more philocatholic posters here - is that it shows you are making little attempt to actually understand Orthodoxy from an Orthodox person's perspective.

Well, I wasn't using normal, daily speech. I'm typing. And I just heard Pope Benedict say "Pater Noster" on Sunday. I didn't mean to confuse anybody and didn't consciously choose it. Hopefully no one was confused---it's pretty well-known in the English-speaking world. In fact, paternoster is an English word that dates from before the 12th century.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pater_Noster_%28disambiguation%29

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/paternoster
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« Reply #27 on: November 28, 2007, 04:47:51 PM »

This is absolutely ludicrous to vilify the current Catholic Church as having these diabolical intentions.    Theological disputes aside, it'd be a hard case to make that people like Pope John Paul II were anything but saintly men. 

Beg to differ,. Somehow being considered a 'defective church' by il popa leads me to think TinaG's absolutely correct.
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« Reply #28 on: November 28, 2007, 04:50:58 PM »

Beg to differ,. Somehow being considered a 'defective church' by il popa leads me to think TinaG's absolutely correct.

And what, pray tell, do you consider us? We're not even a church. A black hole calling the kettle black. . .
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« Reply #29 on: November 28, 2007, 04:51:15 PM »

Beg to differ,. Somehow being considered a 'defective church' by il popa leads me to think TinaG's absolutely correct.

Defective church is certainly a lot more charitable than how the Catholic Church is described in Orthodox circles.  Nothing has quite the ring of "graceless heretic."
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« Reply #30 on: November 28, 2007, 04:59:17 PM »

Defective church is certainly a lot more charitable than how the Catholic Church is described in Orthodox circles.  Nothing has quite the ring of "graceless heretic."

You've not heard that from me, I'm sure. But I'll consider using it, if you'd like so I can fit your mold.
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« Reply #31 on: November 28, 2007, 05:00:51 PM »

And what, pray tell, do you consider us? We're not even a church. A black hole calling the kettle black. . .

Formerly Orthodox.
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« Reply #32 on: November 28, 2007, 05:04:08 PM »

Formerly Orthodox.

In other words, outside the Church period. We aren't even a church, and I am unbaptized in most EO eyes. Our Eucharist is play-acting.

Hmm, any Orientale Lumen, Unitatis Redintegratio or Ut Unum Sint from the EO side?
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« Reply #33 on: November 28, 2007, 05:06:40 PM »

In other words, outside the Church period. We aren't even a church, and I am unbaptized in most EO eyes. Our Eucharist is play-acting.
Don't know...
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« Reply #34 on: November 28, 2007, 05:10:47 PM »

Defective church is certainly a lot more charitable than how the Catholic Church is described in Orthodox circles.  Nothing has quite the ring of "graceless heretic."

Better to be honest, if blunt, than disguise our opinion with disingenous and deceitful descriptions.
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« Reply #35 on: November 28, 2007, 05:11:34 PM »

Don't know...

I rest my case.  Smiley

We know several things. That you are not heretics, are true churches, have true sacraments, and are "sister churches" with us.
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« Reply #36 on: November 28, 2007, 05:13:01 PM »

You've not heard that from me, I'm sure. But I'll consider using it, if you'd like so I can fit your mold.

Sorry to disappoint, but you hardly represent the totality of Orthodox opinion.  While modern Catholic opinion is that Orthodoxy is schismatic (although born-Orthodox aren't themselves guilty of schism), it holds that Orthodoxy is entirely valid communion in terms of sacramental grace.  The same opinion can hardly be said of Orthodoxy towards Catholicism at an official level.   
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« Reply #37 on: November 28, 2007, 05:15:02 PM »

I rest my case.  Smiley

We know several things. That you are not heretics, are true churches, have true sacraments, and are "sister churches" with us.

yep. That's the current line out of the Vatican
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« Reply #38 on: November 28, 2007, 05:17:04 PM »

Better to be honest, if blunt, than disguise our opinion with disingenous and deceitful descriptions.

You are making a very serious accusation.  Who in the Catholic Church is the one making this lie (and can you demonstrate from textual evidence that they do indeed believe something other than what they profess?)?  And for that matter, don't Orthodox participants in ecumenical dialogs do essentially the same thing? 
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« Reply #39 on: November 28, 2007, 05:17:28 PM »

Sorry to disappoint, but you hardly represent the totality of Orthodox opinion.  While modern Catholic opinion is that Orthodoxy is schismatic (although born-Orthodox aren't themselves guilty of schism), it holds that Orthodoxy is entirely valid communion in terms of sacramental grace.  The same opinion can hardly be said of Orthodoxy towards Catholicism at an official level.   


There you go with that "valid" stuff again.
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« Reply #40 on: November 28, 2007, 05:18:58 PM »

There you go with that "valid" stuff again.

It would only make sense to express the beliefs of the Catholic Church in Catholic terminology. 

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« Reply #41 on: November 28, 2007, 05:20:49 PM »

It would only make sense to express the beliefs of the Catholic Church in Catholic terminology. 

Which is only logical, since if they get their way, it's the terminology we'll be forced to think in as we're crushed under Rome's boot heel.
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« Reply #42 on: November 28, 2007, 05:24:19 PM »

Which is only logical, since if they get their way, it's the terminology we'll be forced to think in as we're crushed under Rome's boot heel.

I never thought I'd meet this much resistance in defending Orthodox bishops on an Orthodox forum.  Interesting...

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« Reply #43 on: November 28, 2007, 05:42:44 PM »

I never thought I'd meet this much resistance in defending Orthodox bishops on an Orthodox forum.  Interesting...



Interesting...that you think that is what you are doing.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #44 on: November 28, 2007, 05:46:36 PM »

I'm defending the theological position of the Ecumenical Patriarchate concerning ecumenism.  A quick search of recent documents from the ecumenical movement would show that to be true. 
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« Reply #45 on: November 28, 2007, 05:48:54 PM »

I'm defending the theological position of the Ecumenical Patriarchate concerning ecumenism.  A quick search of recent documents from the ecumenical movement would show that to be true. 

And we know that the EP's position is the Orthodox one as a per se rule.   Roll Eyes
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« Reply #46 on: November 28, 2007, 05:55:37 PM »

And we know that the EP's position is the Orthodox one as a per se rule.   Roll Eyes

If you believe that the Patriarchate's position is not Orthodox, then it would only make sense to sever communion.  Complaining about and saying one's bishops aren't Orthodox makes no sense to me. 

I have tremendous respect for groups like the GOC as they are consistent in their position.  Their faithful believe ecumenism is an heresy and hence have joined themselves to like minded bishops.  I don't think the policy of all my bishops in my jurisdiction and those with whom it is in communion are un-Orthodox, but I'm Orthodox since I complain about them on an internet forum has much historical justification. 
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« Reply #47 on: November 28, 2007, 05:56:45 PM »

Patriarch Bartholomew is ready to accept the Pope's primacy

Is the Patriarch doing this as an individual or is he assuming all of Orthodoxy?

 Huh
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« Reply #48 on: November 28, 2007, 05:59:44 PM »

Patriarch Bartholomew is ready to accept the Pope's primacy

Is the Patriarch doing this as an individual or is he assuming all of Orthodoxy?

 Huh

No, JoeS. He's not by either standard. His thinking hasn't changed one iota from what it always has been.
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« Reply #49 on: November 28, 2007, 06:25:25 PM »

I ask everyone's forgiveness for my post if it sounded harsh or judgemental and for setting us against each other and causing strife.  

If I can clarify, I am opposed to reunification with the 21st century RC church, and more specifically the mainstream American catholic church.  I have no desire to dilute Orthodoxy with Novos Ordo guitar masses, liturgical dancers, eucharistic ministers, communion buffet lines and social justice peace rallies.  I do greatly respect Pope Benedict and what seem like genuine efforts to reign in the effects of Vatican II, and for honest efforts to reunify the OC and RC church, but only with the doctrinal changes that Orthodox must insist on.  Are we ready to make concessions on the Filioque, the nature of salvation or the forms and practices of Liturgy?

The RC church is a huge, monolithic organization and has the momentum of a giant oil tanker at full speed.  I picture Pope Benedict as a tiny little tug.  He might want to turn the course of the tanker but is ineffective in so far as he's only able to make very small changes.  In all honesty, does anyone think he can do away with entrenched Catholic dogmas?  He may be Pope but he's got to tread a fine line too.  He's also an older man - there is no guarantee the next Pope will be as traditionally minded or have the same good intentions.   I guess it must be my former protestant nature showing, but I think the Catholic Church, no matter the good intentions of one Pope, at some level has a certain view of itself and its role in history.  Reunification will overwhelm the Orthodox just by sheer numbers of RC believers and the multiplicity of RC worship styles, beliefs and practices.

I also have enough close devout Catholic friends who have shown me that the faithful will never accept "first among equals" or give up the belief that Roman Catholic = One Pope, One Church.

Again, I apologize for being blunt and tactless.  These are only my little opinions.
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« Reply #50 on: November 28, 2007, 07:02:38 PM »

I ask everyone's forgiveness for my post if it sounded harsh or judgemental and for setting us against each other and causing strife.  

If I can clarify, I am opposed to reunification with the 21st century RC church, and more specifically the mainstream American catholic church.  I have no desire to dilute Orthodoxy with Novos Ordo guitar masses, liturgical dancers, eucharistic ministers, communion buffet lines and social justice peace rallies.  I do greatly respect Pope Benedict and what seem like genuine efforts to reign in the effects of Vatican II, and for honest efforts to reunify the OC and RC church, but only with the doctrinal changes that Orthodox must insist on.  Are we ready to make concessions on the Filioque, the nature of salvation or the forms and practices of Liturgy?

The RC church is a huge, monolithic organization and has the momentum of a giant oil tanker at full speed.  I picture Pope Benedict as a tiny little tug.  He might want to turn the course of the tanker but is ineffective in so far as he's only able to make very small changes.  In all honesty, does anyone think he can do away with entrenched Catholic dogmas?  He may be Pope but he's got to tread a fine line too.  He's also an older man - there is no guarantee the next Pope will be as traditionally minded or have the same good intentions.   I guess it must be my former protestant nature showing, but I think the Catholic Church, no matter the good intentions of one Pope,

Wow, I never thought I'd see an EO lament that the Pope in Rome does not have enough power. Roll Eyes

The Pope's Marshall Plan for the Catholic Church (Fr. John Zuhlsdorf's expression) is proceeding apace. He will not live to see this project completed, but it will continue nevertheless.

To be honest, would we have wanted to stick with the Eastern Churches for much of the first millennium? Arianism, Monophysitism, Iconoclasm . . . . But we must remember that the gates of Hell shall not prevail.

I would compare the "Spirit of Vatican II" (which had its beginnings well before the Council---Pope St. Pius X drove the Modernists underground a century ago) to the Iconoclastic crisis in the East. Is it more or less severe a crisis than that? Hard to say. I will say, though, that the Catholic Church turned the corner probably between 15-25 years ago, and the momentum of restoration is slowly building.

Of course, we're talking the West here. I think things have been phenomenal overall in Africa and Asia. A great new evangelization.

Pope Benedict knows exactly what he's doing. We may have a pruning, but we will bloom all the brighter in time. The younger generation of clergy, religious and laity are the future, and they are increasingly traditional.
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« Reply #51 on: November 28, 2007, 08:41:41 PM »

We know several things. That you are not heretics, are true churches, have true sacraments, and are "sister churches" with us.

Doesn't the denial of such things as papal infallibility/supremacy and the Immaculate Conception make one a heretic according to Catholic thinking? In my experience, it certainly does if one is Protestant. What about the Orthodox?
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« Reply #52 on: November 28, 2007, 09:43:03 PM »

Doesn't the denial of such things as papal infallibility/supremacy and the Immaculate Conception make one a heretic according to Catholic thinking? In my experience, it certainly does if one is Protestant. What about the Orthodox?

The Catholic Church takes a fairly nuanced stance.  It considers the various Eastern Churches not in communion with Rome to have the same Marian doctrine that is expressed in a different manner.  Also only those who leave the Catholic Church are actually considered to be personally guilty of schism.  No matter how you spin it, this is a far more positive view than is reciprocated by Orthodoxy.  So I am a bit baffled at why Orthodox people are upset at the RCC's position, or for that matter why they even care. 

If I can clarify, I am opposed to reunification with the 21st century RC church, and more specifically the mainstream American catholic church.  I have no desire to dilute Orthodoxy with Novos Ordo guitar masses, liturgical dancers, eucharistic ministers, communion buffet lines and social justice peace rallies.

These aren't universal in Catholicism.  I don't think you'd ever see anything like that in Poland.  While the social justice message is still very intense in Western Europe, none of my sister's (who spent some time living in Germany) nor my experience in Western Europe saw anything else like what you describe.  I think most of these American liturgical aberrations are the influence of Evangelical Mega Churches.  And in all honesty, not even American Orthodox Churches have been immune to such influences.         

Quote
Are we ready to make concessions on the Filioque, the nature of salvation or the forms and practices of Liturgy?

As for the forms and practices of liturgy, Western rite parishes have already made those concessions. 
 
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The RC church is a huge, monolithic organization and has the momentum of a giant oil tanker at full speed.

The RC is monolithic?   Cheesy

Officialdom aside, Orthodoxy has been much more monolithic IME than Catholicism. 

And I would actually agree with you to a point.  Roman Catholicism is in a bit of crisis at the moment, but I'm not convinced it is any more widespread or serious than the problems facing the Orthodox Church presently. 

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I guess it must be my former protestant nature showing

Jack Chick with incense.   Roll Eyes  Why not simply say that you fear the numerical superiority of Catholicism rather than comparing it with sinister characters and impugning the motives of many the highest levels of the Catholic Church? 
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« Reply #53 on: November 28, 2007, 09:48:57 PM »

Doesn't the denial of such things as papal infallibility/supremacy and the Immaculate Conception make one a heretic according to Catholic thinking? In my experience, it certainly does if one is Protestant. What about the Orthodox?

I think the big difference was how public the dissent of the reformers was in teaching against doctrines. Though it may be true if we fail to ascend to the teachings of the Church we may anathemize ourselves with apostacy, those in power have always thought they could put the fear of God into someone by exercising that authority rather than letting the Holy Spirit do it. What a big mess they made with their passions. In the words of Father Groeshel, our Pope at the time of the reformation was a meat head. As a result we see generations of believers trying to grow in faith without the guidance of the Church interpretation of Sacred Scripture. It equates to putting a disobedient child on the street and letting them learn everything the hard way. Luther may have become just as full of himself before it was over but we musn't forget he had some valid points about the corruption of the men in the Church. Love heals and sin divides. Shouldn't all Christian divisions be an embarassment to all Christians?

Peace.
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« Reply #54 on: November 28, 2007, 09:56:28 PM »

In the words of Father Groeschel, our Pope at the time of the reformation was a meat head.

Ha! Cheesy Benedict Groeschel is the man! I saw him speak last June---he's got a lot of New York moxie.
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« Reply #55 on: November 28, 2007, 09:59:28 PM »

Ha! Cheesy Benedict Groeschel is the man! I saw him speak last June---he's got a lot of New York moxie.

I think I saw him speak the summer of 1999. I'd go do it again in a heartbeat if I knew he was going to be somewhere close enough.
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« Reply #56 on: November 28, 2007, 10:49:14 PM »

I also would accept the Pope of Rome as the first among equals, if he does away with the heresies the Roman Church has fallen into.
John Paul II made great strides in reforming the Roman Liturgy, he restored the Little and Great entrances, and added an epiclecus during the Roman Anaphora.
I also feel they need to restore Leavened Bread.

Obadiah?  Is that you? Smiley
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« Reply #57 on: November 28, 2007, 10:52:27 PM »

He still is, whatever the "West" means anymore, the Latin Church being in every corner of the globe. The Vatican only dropped it from the annual yearbook because they say it is no longer "useful" as a title. Not sure if it was a good idea, but it's just a title, and it didn't make it into the yearbook until 1863 anyway. The reality---that the Bishop of Rome is patriarch of the Latin Church---still exists.

Yes, the previous one was making claims on the Romanians.

The explicit epicleses were added to the three new Eucharistic Prayers by Pope Paul VI's Apostolic Constitution Missale Romanum in 1969, establishing the Novus Ordo. Not that an explicit one is needed, of course. The original Roman Canon, or Eucharistic Prayer 1, has an implied one.



We prefer an explicit one.  Maybe I should say require: it is one of the few changes between the pre Vatican II Western Liturgies and the WRO.

Only minor changes in the 2002 revision of the Missale Romanum.

A small thing is not a small thing, if it leads to something great. St. John of Damascus.

The "minor" changes, if Obadiah is correct, are in the right direction.  A major objection of the hard core opponents of reunion (and those not so die hard  Wink) is the absence of the epiclesis.
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« Reply #58 on: November 28, 2007, 11:13:00 PM »

Well they've been calmly sitting down for 70 years at the WCC and the Faith and Order to chat along with several EO-OO conferences and nothing has happened yet.

I have to disagree.

I don't know where you're at or where you have been, but in the Middle East there has been much on the informal level, i.e. amongst the masses of Faithful.

A EO primate from there told me the real hold up is that "no one wants to die."  There is a fear that the Antiocheans will swallow up the Syriac, and an even bigger danger of the Copts swallowing everyone in Egypt. Just by numbers, the relations in Syria are excellent, as too in Egypt.

The EO Popes of Alexandria are working out a solution: they have a vicarate for their Arab EO, with their own bishop on the synod.  Something could be worked out in Syria (where it is more of an issue: both Syriac and Arab are native to the area.  Arabs and Greeks in Egypt are new comers, the Copts are the original Egyptians).

The resistence of a lot of EO is because their Churches don't have any practical contact with any OO, but that's changing.  The Armenians, as always are everywhere, but the Copts are all over Europe and now the US, and in those places I've met (even at the EO Cathedral in Finland) Copts who attend EO Churches as their Churches, and the Copts are so accepted by the Churches in question.

The formalities still have to be worked out (Chalcedon with have to be accepted and Dioscoros rehabilitated, even canonized on the EO side, etc).  We should take our time and do it right, so it is lasting.  But let's get going!
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« Reply #59 on: November 28, 2007, 11:21:17 PM »

I'm defending the theological position of the Ecumenical Patriarchate concerning ecumenism.  A quick search of recent documents from the ecumenical movement would show that to be true. 

I don't know on this forum, but on the ECF there was massive support for the Patriarch of Moscos et alia on this issue (and the Ravenna, conference), although only Fr. Ambrose I believe is under Alexei (and then just recently).
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« Reply #60 on: November 28, 2007, 11:49:02 PM »

The Catholic Church takes a fairly nuanced stance.  It considers the various Eastern Churches not in communion with Rome to have the same Marian doctrine that is expressed in a different manner.  Also only those who leave the Catholic Church are actually considered to be personally guilty of schism.  No matter how you spin it, this is a far more positive view than is reciprocated by Orthodoxy.  So I am a bit baffled at why Orthodox people are upset at the RCC's position, or for that matter why they even care. 

We don't.  I haven't seen a post boo hooing Rome's position, just stating it, or its logical conclusions.

Quote
These aren't universal in Catholicism.  I don't think you'd ever see anything like that in Poland.  While the social justice message is still very intense in Western Europe, none of my sister's (who spent some time living in Germany) nor my experience in Western Europe saw anything else like what you describe.  I think most of these American liturgical aberrations are the influence of Evangelical Mega Churches.  And in all honesty, not even American Orthodox Churches have been immune to such influences.
 

We don't have liberal theology or any such thing.  Rome's branches in the Americas is now its core: amost half its adherents are there.  The Protestants (Evangelicals, Pentacostals, etc.) are making serious inroads, though.  But Rome is compensating with Africa, where there is also the Evanelical/Pentacostal problem. jSo American problems are not localized problems.

The Orthodox don't have the problems with liturgical experiments.      

Quote
As for the forms and practices of liturgy, Western rite parishes have already made those concessions.
 

No concessions were made in the Western Rite.  What was Orthodox stayed, what wasn't, went.
 
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The RC is monolithic?   Cheesy

Officialdom aside, Orthodoxy has been much more monolithic IME than Catholicism. 


They keep telling me they are confused, and don't know who speaks authoritatively for the Orthodox.

Quote
And I would actually agree with you to a point.  Roman Catholicism is in a bit of crisis at the moment, but I'm not convinced it is any more widespread or serious than the problems facing the Orthodox Church presently. 


The Orthodox problems are the usual ones: persecusion, state interference, nominalism....So dealt with them before.  The crisis in Rome is a new problem.

Quote
Jack Chick with incense.   Roll Eyes  Why not simply say that you fear the numerical superiority of Catholicism rather than comparing it with sinister characters and impugning the motives of many the highest levels of the Catholic Church? 


well, the selling point (safety in numbers) might be the problem (outnumbered).
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« Reply #61 on: November 29, 2007, 12:04:30 AM »


Given the way this thread is evolving, I'm moving it out of "Christian News" and into "Orthodox-Catholic Discussion".
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« Reply #62 on: November 29, 2007, 12:19:14 AM »

Beg to differ,. Somehow being considered a 'defective church' by il popa leads me to think TinaG's absolutely correct.

Sorry to be a word stikler but please if your going criticize what the Pope said please get it right.

He never said "defective" which would mean something totally different than what he actually said.
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« Reply #63 on: November 29, 2007, 01:00:53 AM »

We don't have liberal theology or any such thing.  Rome's branches in the Americas is now its core: amost half its adherents are there.  The Protestants (Evangelicals, Pentacostals, etc.) are making serious inroads, though.  But Rome is compensating with Africa, where there is also the Evanelical/Pentacostal problem. jSo American problems are not localized problems.

There most certainly is liberal theology in many Orthodox theological circles.  Never heard of St. Sergius in Paris?   

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The Orthodox don't have the problems with liturgical experiments.

Time will tell.  Hang around certain Orthodox jurisdictions long enough and you'll start seeing some curious things. 
 
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The Orthodox problems are the usual ones: persecusion, state interference, nominalism....So dealt with them before.  The crisis in Rome is a new problem.

Not this tired rant.  Persecution - yes I would agree that the Orthodox Church is complicit in the persecution of religious minorities in Eastern Europe.  State interference - yes I'd agree that the Orthodox Church has backed nationalist politicians and willingly made itself into a political organ. 
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« Reply #64 on: November 29, 2007, 01:04:39 AM »

We don't.  I haven't seen a post boo hooing Rome's position, just stating it, or its logical conclusions.

I have run into Orthodox in person and on the internet that were offended by Benedict's statement that we are not the fullness of a Church. Like, "how dare he say that about us?!" But I say, good for him. He's honest about his position.


Quote
We don't have liberal theology or any such thing.  Rome's branches in the Americas is now its core: amost half its adherents are there.  The Protestants (Evangelicals, Pentacostals, etc.) are making serious inroads, though.  But Rome is compensating with Africa, where there is also the Evanelical/Pentacostal problem. jSo American problems are not localized problems.

I disagree entirely on that point, especially from the Paris school, and some of the things I see coming out of the various theological dialogs between Orthodox and heterodox.


Quote
The Orthodox don't have the problems with liturgical experiments.

If you say on the same scale, fine, I'll agree. But look at New Skete (I have taken the time to actually visit there unlike most of its critics, and I was repulsed by many aspects of it). St Vladimir's has made some adjustments that are idiosyncratic.  And many parishes have chopped up the liturgy in various ways. So I don't agree we are free from this.     
 
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« Reply #65 on: November 29, 2007, 01:51:54 AM »

I disagree entirely on that point, especially from the Paris school, and some of the things I see coming out of the various theological dialogs between Orthodox and heterodox.

Anastasios,

I would certainly agree that recently there have been some things happening that have made me nervous and given me pause to think.  Perhaps you would like to edify us with a few examples you know of, or point us towards them.

 I've made this point before: I don't think you can tar everyone in the "Paris school" with the same brush.  An Evdokimov or a Behr-Siegel  are not the same creatures as a Lossky or a Schmemann or a Meyendorff.

My nervousness aside, the kind of liberalism that one sees displayed in Orthodox circles usually pails in comparison to that seen outside.  Still, I do agree that although New Skete has made some interesting strides in liturgical scholarship that some weird things have happened there.  As an aside,I notice that Fr. Laurence Mancuso died a few months ago.  I gather he had not been living at New Skete for some time.  Would you happen to know why?

I still think it's funny that some people refer to a "modernist" trend in Orthodoxy, when really, there is nothing in Orthodoxy that closely resembles a modernist trend in the Roman Catholic sense of the word.

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« Reply #66 on: November 29, 2007, 02:04:00 AM »

Anastasios,

I would certainly agree that recently there have been some things happening that have made me nervous and given me pause to think.  Perhaps you would like to edify us with a few examples you know of, or point us towards them.

 I've made this point before: I don't think you can tar everyone in the "Paris school" with the same brush.  An Evdokimov or a Behr-Siegel  are not the same creatures as a Lossky or a Schmemann or a Meyendorff.

My nervousness aside, the kind of liberalism that one sees displayed in Orthodox circles usually pails in comparison to that seen outside.  Still, I do agree that although New Skete has made some interesting strides in liturgical scholarship that some weird things have happened there.  As an aside,I notice that Fr. Laurence Mancuso died a few months ago.  I gather he had not been living at New Skete for some time.  Would you happen to know why?

I still think it's funny that some people refer to a "modernist" trend in Orthodoxy, when really, there is nothing in Orthodoxy that closely resembles a modernist trend in the Roman Catholic sense of the word.

J.B.

My point is not to rehash old arguments or to tar someone broadly; I was merely making some general comments that there are liberal trends going on in Orthodoxy. I also think it is to be expected in any normal religion that there will be such trends and disputes.

I don't know if what I know about Fr Laurence is public knowledge so suffice it to say he was asked to resign by the community some years back.

I agree that in scope Orthodoxy is still much less liberal than outside, but when we sign documents with people outside that have such views I wonder where we are headed (well that is a rhetorical as I obviously made a jurisdictional choice based on this).
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« Reply #67 on: November 29, 2007, 02:08:28 AM »

A small thing is not a small thing, if it leads to something great. St. John of Damascus.

The "minor" changes, if Obadiah is correct, are in the right direction.  A major objection of the hard core opponents of reunion (and those not so die hard  Wink) is the absence of the epiclesis.

The additional Eucharistic Prayers with the explicit epicleses were added in 1970, not in John Paul II's 2002 revision. Like I said, minor changes (though they were for the better---the Novus Ordo has slowly been getting better over the last 35 years).
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« Reply #68 on: November 29, 2007, 02:13:21 AM »

We don't have liberal theology or any such thing. 

I would suggest you be more wary. It's a cancer and can infect quietly and insidiously. EO is not immune. I think the birth control thing is a sad example of its effects.
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« Reply #69 on: November 29, 2007, 02:24:58 AM »

I would suggest you be more wary. It's a cancer and can infect quietly and insidiously. EO is not immune. I think the birth control thing is a sad example of its effects.

Thank you, I keep trying to tell people that the left is your friend and that we really are making changes for the better...at least someone gets it. Wink
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« Reply #70 on: November 29, 2007, 05:08:08 AM »

I was just explaining why I called it Pater Noster. It wasn't a conscious decision. I've also called it by the other two names.

OK. Excuse me please. I was too harsh.
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« Reply #71 on: November 29, 2007, 06:43:58 AM »

Sorry to be a word stikler but please if your going criticize what the Pope said please get it right.

He never said "defective" which would mean something totally different than what he actually said.

For the word stickler:
"we believe they suffer from defects"
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« Reply #72 on: November 29, 2007, 08:18:02 AM »

Nobody has thought of asking the corollorary question:  Is Pope Benedict ready to accept Patriarch Bartholomew's submission to his authority?

The Patriarch brings some major problems with his submission to Rome... he is used to having autocephalic authority whereas all the present Catholic Patriarchs are permitted merely autonomous authority.  He proclaims a teaching on marriage and divorce and on contraception and even abortion (the last to his everlasting shame) which the Pope will not be able to tolerate.

So the question is - while the Patriarch may be ready to accept the Pope, is the Pope ready to accept the Patriarch?
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« Reply #73 on: November 29, 2007, 10:01:30 AM »

You're right, those erroneous (in RC eyes) views would have to change, or at least he'd have to be hush-hush about them (like the liberal bishops) if he still adhered to them.

What I don't understand most is his softness on abortion---the other two views are generally acceptable among EO. More of his countrymen in Greece are aborted than born. He needs to speak up about that rather than kiss Paul Sarbanes' shoes.
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« Reply #74 on: November 29, 2007, 10:09:07 AM »

He still is, whatever the "West" means anymore, the Latin Church being in every corner of the globe. The Vatican only dropped it from the annual yearbook because they say it is no longer "useful" as a title. Not sure if it was a good idea, but it's just a title, and it didn't make it into the yearbook until 1863 anyway. The reality---that the Bishop of Rome is patriarch of the Latin Church---still exists.

Well, although, we may not often agree, that is a good point and well-put way to state it.
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« Reply #75 on: November 29, 2007, 10:56:22 AM »

You're right, those erroneous (in RC eyes) views would have to change, or at least he'd have to be hush-hush about them (like the liberal bishops) if he still adhered to them.

What I don't understand most is his softness on abortion---the other two views are generally acceptable among EO. More of his countrymen in Greece are aborted than born. He needs to speak up about that rather than kiss Paul Sarbanes' shoes.

Quite to the contrary, any agreement of communion would have to be born out of mutual respect; we would have to tolerate your positions that we find distasteful, and likewise you would have to tolerate these positions of ours that you find distasteful. If not born out of mutual respect and tolerance, any communion would quickly die.
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« Reply #76 on: November 29, 2007, 11:12:35 AM »

Quite to the contrary, any agreement of communion would have to be born out of mutual respect; we would have to tolerate your positions that we find distasteful, and likewise you would have to tolerate these positions of ours that you find distasteful. If not born out of mutual respect and tolerance, any communion would quickly die.

AND this would be considered a union?Huh??  What about union of faith and belief?

The One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church is not a country club where two or more can have doctrinal beliefs opposite each other.  How does mutual respect and tolerance deal with rock hard dogmas which are contrary to true belief? 

I just cant get it through my head how one can have dogmatic opposite beliefs and still be considered in union.   This may be tolerated but this is not Unity.

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« Reply #77 on: November 29, 2007, 11:27:33 AM »

AND this would be considered a union?Huh??  What about union of faith and belief?

The One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church is not a country club where two or more can have doctrinal beliefs opposite each other.  How does mutual respect and tolerance deal with rock hard dogmas which are contrary to true belief? 

I just cant get it through my head how one can have dogmatic opposite beliefs and still be considered in union.   This may be tolerated but this is not Unity.


Well said and my point exactly.   What makes Orthodoxy so cohesive and uniform is its commitment across the board to liturgical unity.  The theology of the Church is an expression of its Liturgy.  Change Liturgy and you open yourselves up to any number of innovations and experiments.  That is not to say there are no variations or anomalies, but on the whole, we are much more united.  That is the one strength of the pre Vatican II Catholic Church and the universal (among western RC not Byz Cath) use of the Tridentine Mass.

If (and that's a big if) unity ever happens, all I hope is that Orthodox leaders are not going to wink-wink-nod-nod at RC  dogmas and take the attitude that we're all one big happy family with a multitude of diverse religious expressions or some PC hooey like that.  Doesn't some religious group use the slogan "Unity within diversity"?
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« Reply #78 on: November 29, 2007, 11:32:20 AM »

For the word stickler:
"we believe they suffer from defects"

I believe that was speaking of non-apostolic Churches

"gravely deficient situation"

There are two important Church documents about this issue, and each of these has a few important points.

The one that I think you are talking about is called "Dominus Iesus: On the Unicity and Salvific Universality of Jesus Christ and the Church." It was written by Ratzinger and promulgated in 2000. In it, he wrote,

Quote
"22. With the coming of the Saviour Jesus Christ, God has willed that the Church founded by him be the instrument for the salvation of all humanity (cf. Acts 17:30-31).90 This truth of faith does not lessen the sincere respect which the Church has for the religions of the world, but at the same time, it rules out, in a radical way, that mentality of indifferentism “characterized by a religious relativism which leads to the belief that ‘one religion is as good as another'”.91 If it is true that the followers of other religions can receive divine grace, it is also certain that objectively speaking they are in a gravely deficient situation in comparison with those who, in the Church, have the fullness of the means of salvation.92"

There's a few footnotes in there. Footnote #92 refers to "Mystici Corporis Christi: Encyclical of Pope Pius XII on the Mystical Body of Christ." It was promulgated in 1943.

Ratzinger is drawing upon the teaching of Pius XII. Although all this is in reference to salvation outside of the Church which is does not include the Orthodox who are a sister apostolic Church.

In July of this year there was a 4 page document which clarified by saying:

Quote
Eastern Orthodox churches, though lacking communion with Rome, nonetheless deserve the term "Church" because their priests follow in the succession of bishops and priests that started in the early church, the document explains.

Protestant denominations, however, "because of the absence of the sacramental priesthood, have not preserved the genuine and integral substance of the Eucharistic Mystery," and are therefore to be termed mere "Christian Communities."

DOMINUS IESUS
Clarification on the Doctrine of the Church
Orthodox Say Unity Must Be Priority

Peace.
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« Reply #79 on: November 29, 2007, 11:40:05 AM »

I just cant get it through my head how one can have dogmatic opposite beliefs and still be considered in union.   This may be tolerated but this is not Unity.

Through putting in the groundwork to study the doctrines and finding the similarities and understanding the differences. Once that is done one should confidently find that they speak the same faith in 90% of the percieved desparities. The disunity will fall away.

Peace.
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« Reply #80 on: November 29, 2007, 11:52:41 AM »

Through putting in the groundwork to study the doctrines and finding the similarities and understanding the differences. Once that is done one should confidently find that they speak the same faith in 90% of the percieved desparities. The disunity will fall away.

Peace.

Why are we stopping at 90%?  Me thinks that this 10% is THE major stumbling block to union. This 10% contains the many doctrinal differences that separate us.  This 10% is what has been the reason for our schism.

Union, Unity has to be all or nothing.  The Eastern Catholics had to agree to this prior to them coming under the Roman Pope.  Yes, they got to keep their traditions and the like but they had to agree to start believing in the Filioque, Purgatory, Infallibility, Supremacy, etc. issues just the same.





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« Reply #81 on: November 29, 2007, 11:58:07 AM »

Well said and my point exactly.   What makes Orthodoxy so cohesive and uniform is its commitment across the board to liturgical unity. 
Wait a minute. How is it liturgical unity if you allow the western liturgy in the western rite Orthodox Churches?
I don't see why you cannot have intercommunion between two Churches with different liturgies.
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« Reply #82 on: November 29, 2007, 11:58:35 AM »

Hey, I'd like to see examples 90/10, myself.
There about 30 Latins innovations not found in Orthodoxy; so 27/3. Which three?
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« Reply #83 on: November 29, 2007, 12:00:29 PM »

Through putting in the groundwork to study the doctrines and finding the similarities and understanding the differences. Once that is done one should confidently find that they speak the same faith in 90% of the percieved desparities. The disunity will fall away.

Peace.

Of course your statement presupposes that Orthodoxy has not already studied Catholic beliefs and found them either lacking in or outright contrary to the deposit of faith once received.  The groundwork already exists; the 'disparities' are real; the disunity will fall away once Catholicism decides it can no longer dwell outside the Church, renounces its errant beliefs, and returns to the faith it once embraced.
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« Reply #84 on: November 29, 2007, 12:56:17 PM »

The RC church is a huge, monolithic organization and has the momentum of a giant oil tanker at full speed.  I picture Pope Benedict as a tiny little tug.  He might want to turn the course of the tanker but is ineffective in so far as he's only able to make very small changes.  In all honesty, does anyone think he can do away with entrenched Catholic dogmas? and practices.

IMHO, this is bang on the mark.  I once heard an Eastern Catholic priest tell a story about an audience some Catholics had with the Pope (Paul VI if memory serves).  During the audience, one of the faithful asked the Pope: "Holy Father, how many people work in the Vatican?"  The Pope  considered the question thoughtfully for a few moments, and then responded:  "Oh, I would say about half."  In other words, fifty percent of the people working in the Vatican were trying to implement the policies and practices of the Roman see, while the other half were either tying them up in bureaucratic knots, ignoring them, or actively opposing them.

The continuing negative experience of the Eastern Catholics with the Roman Church should put the Orthodox on the alert.  Here is but one example: the field of canon law.  They have been struggling for decades to have eastern concepts recognized in their canon law, but continue to have to make decisions based on Roman concepts, as I see it seemingly because Roman canon lawyers simply can't be bothered to go online and order a few books on Orthodox views of canon law and ecclesiology!  Anyone who doesn't believe me is welcome to root around for themselves and find some info.  Perhaps you could start with the work of the well-respected Eastern Catholic canon lawyer Fr Jobe Abbass (sp?)

It seems that well-intentioned Catholics  sometimes seem to have great difficulty grasping eastern concepts.  But when they work at it, they can come up with remarkably charitible and gracious ways of relating to the Orthodox.  One should remember that a considerable amount of positive change that emanated from Vatican II(and all but the most rigid Orthodox, IMHO, would have to acknowledge that at leastsome  positive things came from Vatican II) was inspired by the Melkite Church.  A document like the one signed at Balamand, however, is a mixed creature.  Clearly, there are elements in Balamand that are totally incompatible with Orthodox ecclesiology, but on the other hand, some of its declarations show remarkable sensitivity and deference to Orthodox values and concepts regarding the nature of the Church.

Orthodox nervousness regarding the Catholic Church cannot all be dismissed simply as Orthodox paranoia, though there is an unfortunate element of that present.  There are prominent Catholics out there, who, IMHO, are rightly viewed by the Orthodox as having a kind of benevolent yet arrogant superiority complex regarding the Eastern Church based on genuine ignorance about the differences between the West and Orthodoxy.  "The Orthodox are exactly the same as us, except that they are completely disorganised and don't have the benefit of communion with the Roman see, poor souls.Oh yes, and they have such a beautiful and rich liturigical tradition."
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« Reply #85 on: November 29, 2007, 12:56:48 PM »

Wait a minute. How is it liturgical unity if you allow the western liturgy in the western rite Orthodox Churches?
I don't see why you cannot have intercommunion between two Churches with different liturgies.


Whoops, I forgot our WR brothers.  Well than I have myself in a pickle if I say WR is the exception to the norm.  I'm gonna be ducking and dodging rocks, stones and flaming cow pies now for sure.  I'll qualify my statements (and probably dig the hole deeper) by saying I still think there is more dissimilarity between the Liturby of the RCC vs. the EO (and WRO) Liturgies.  The theology behind the liturgies is certainly different (the sacrifice/atoning mass vs. the EO view - sorry can't find the correct words).  I still think liturgically and theologically we have more in common with OO than RCC.  
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« Reply #86 on: November 29, 2007, 01:06:52 PM »

In other words, outside the Church period. We aren't even a church, and I am unbaptized in most EO eyes. Our Eucharist is play-acting.

Hmm, any Orientale Lumen, Unitatis Redintegratio or Ut Unum Sint from the EO side?

Stirring the pot I see. You know full well (or you should by now) that there is not a single  accepted monolithic view of the nature of the Catholic Church in Orthodox circles.
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« Reply #87 on: November 29, 2007, 01:12:57 PM »

Whoops, I forgot our WR brothers.  Well than I have myself in a pickle if I say WR is the exception to the norm.  I'm gonna be ducking and dodging rocks, stones and flaming cow pies now for sure.  I'll qualify my statements (and probably dig the hole deeper) by saying I still think there is more dissimilarity between the Liturby of the RCC vs. the EO (and WRO) Liturgies.  The theology behind the liturgies is certainly different (the sacrifice/atoning mass vs. the EO view - sorry can't find the correct words).  I still think liturgically and theologically we have more in common with OO than RCC.  

Im not quite convinced that the inception of the WRO was a good idea or not. I also believe that this is uniquely an American phenomenon.  I know why it was created but I feel there should have been more effort in steering these converts towards the more traditional Liturgy in the Orthodoxy church.  Anyway, the numbers of WRO are still small and I do believe IMHO that in time the WRO will be absorbed into the Eastern Orthodox church where this "intermediate" step would not be necessary.
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« Reply #88 on: November 29, 2007, 01:16:45 PM »

My point is not to rehash old arguments or to tar someone broadly; I was merely making some general comments that there are liberal trends going on in Orthodoxy. I also think it is to be expected in any normal religion that there will be such trends and disputes.

I don't know if what I know about Fr Laurence is public knowledge so suffice it to say he was asked to resign by the community some years back.

I agree that in scope Orthodoxy is still much less liberal than outside, but when we sign documents with people outside that have such views I wonder where we are headed (well that is a rhetorical as I obviously made a jurisdictional choice based on this).

Okay, thanks.   Smiley  I would be geniunely interested, BTW, to see you or someone else start another thread about dealings with other ecclesial bodies that might be considered suspect.   
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« Reply #89 on: November 29, 2007, 01:18:15 PM »

Im not quite convinced that the inception of the WRO was a good idea or not.  I...do believe IMHO that in time the WRO will be absorbed into the Eastern Orthodox church where this "intermediate" step would not be necessary.

Ohhhh, lookout, there's gonna be a flaming cow pie headed your way too. laugh
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« Reply #90 on: November 29, 2007, 01:21:32 PM »

Stirring the pot I see. You know full well (or you should by now) that there is not a single  accepted monolithic view of the nature of the Catholic Church in Orthodox circles.

I never claimed there was. In fact, I've often critically pointed that out on this board in the past.

What I wrote, however, is a mainstream view in EO. 
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« Reply #91 on: November 29, 2007, 01:22:10 PM »

Ohhhh, lookout, there's gonna be a flaming cow pie headed your way too. laugh

Im good at bobbing and weaving, but I cant say for sure that the WRO is something that was ever meant to be a permanent arrangement.

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« Reply #92 on: November 29, 2007, 01:29:34 PM »

The explicit epicleses were added to the three new Eucharistic Prayers by Pope Paul VI's Apostolic Constitution Missale Romanum in 1969, establishing the Novus Ordo. Not that an explicit one is needed, of course. The original Roman Canon, or Eucharistic Prayer 1, has an implied one.

IMHO  you are right about this.  Those who doubt this could check out St. Nicholas Cabasilas' commentary on the Divine Liturgy for a corroborating view (that an implicit epiclesis is perfectly acceptable).
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« Reply #93 on: November 29, 2007, 01:36:04 PM »

AND this would be considered a union?Huh??  What about union of faith and belief?

The One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church is not a country club where two or more can have doctrinal beliefs opposite each other.  How does mutual respect and tolerance deal with rock hard dogmas which are contrary to true belief? 

I just cant get it through my head how one can have dogmatic opposite beliefs and still be considered in union.   This may be tolerated but this is not Unity.



This is precisely the problem that Anglicanism is having today, where those with completely different beliefs are united only by their common liturgy.  If we were going to simply agree to disagree and unite anyway, that's the kind of situation in which we would eventually find ourselves:  a communion rending itself asunder from the inside.
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« Reply #94 on: November 29, 2007, 01:39:40 PM »

I never claimed there was. In fact, I've often critically pointed that out on this board in the past.

What I wrote, however, is a mainstream view in EO. 


Fine.  It is one mainstream view, though not the only one.

I should apologise in part, because upon closer inspection I see that your post made sense as a polemical response to another.
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« Reply #95 on: November 29, 2007, 01:40:05 PM »

Stirring the pot I see. You know full well (or you should by now) that there is not a single  accepted monolithic view of the nature of the Catholic Church in Orthodox circles.

"Stirring the pot" is a serious accusation.Here's the full exchange, from which you quoted a small part, in context:

Beg to differ,. Somehow being considered a 'defective church' by il popa leads me to think TinaG's absolutely correct.
And what, pray tell, do you consider us? We're not even a church. A black hole calling the kettle black. . .
Formerly Orthodox.
In other words, outside the Church period. We aren't even a church, and I am unbaptized in most EO eyes. Our Eucharist is play-acting.

Hmm, any Orientale Lumen, Unitatis Redintegratio or Ut Unum Sint from the EO side?
Don't know...
I rest my case.  Smiley

We know several things. That you are not heretics, are true churches, have true sacraments, and are "sister churches" with us.

I think this shows clearly that I know there is no monolithic view.

Of course you don't know. You haven't had an ecumenical council since the 9th century. It would require one to settle authoritatively the question of the Western Church's status.

However, it is a mainstream and widely accepted opinion (and many of the opinion's opponents do not treat it as a mere opinion) that the Catholics do not constitute a proper Church and have no grace in their sacraments, including baptism. The prevalence of re-baptism (and the invocation of economia otherwise) of converts shows this.

So I respectfully don't think I was "stirring the pot" at all.
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« Reply #96 on: November 29, 2007, 01:43:09 PM »

Fine.  It is one mainstream view, though not the only one.

I should apologise in part, because upon closer inspection I see that your post made sense as a polemical response to another.

Thanks for that. I guess my last post is unnecessary.
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« Reply #97 on: November 29, 2007, 01:46:25 PM »

Thanks for that. I guess my last post is unnecessary.
No, it was not made unnecessary. How do you hold a 9th century synod in the 21st? Because that is the issue - now.
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« Reply #98 on: November 29, 2007, 02:00:19 PM »

The continuing negative experience of the Eastern Catholics with the Roman Church should put the Orthodox on the alert.  Here is but one example: the field of canon law.  They have been struggling for decades to have eastern concepts recognized in their canon law, but continue to have to make decisions based on Roman concepts, as I see it seemingly because Roman canon lawyers simply can't be bothered to go online and order a few books on Orthodox views of canon law and ecclesiology!  Anyone who doesn't believe me is welcome to root around for themselves and find some info.  Perhaps you could start with the work of the well-respected Eastern Catholic canon lawyer Fr Jobe Abbass (sp?)


You have a point, Pravoslavbob. But as Fr. Ambrose pointed out, in Catholicism there are no autocephalous churches except the Latin Church. Among the EC churches, the closest thing to an autocephalous church is the autonomous patriarchates (6 of them, to be exact).

So I think the first question to ask here is, Should the autonomous patriarchates be promoted to autocephalous status, or should they stay as they are (for now)?

Personally, I absolutely believe that they could be promoted, but I’m not sure it would be a good idea. And (more to the point, perhaps) I haven’t heard a lot of Orthodox calling for it to happen.

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« Reply #99 on: November 29, 2007, 02:02:58 PM »

Why are we stopping at 90%?  Me thinks that this 10% is THE major stumbling block to union. This 10% contains the many doctrinal differences that separate us.  This 10% is what has been the reason for our schism.

Union, Unity has to be all or nothing.  The Eastern Catholics had to agree to this prior to them coming under the Roman Pope.  Yes, they got to keep their traditions and the like but they had to agree to start believing in the Filioque, Purgatory, Infallibility, Supremacy, etc. issues just the same.

Well I spoke figuratively from my own experience of getting in touch with EO theology in which I found nothing contrary and also nothing warranting disunity with my own Western praxis.

It is noteworthy however that Roman theology has progressed in many areas that exceeds that of the East. You know, the "innovations". It curious to note that the joint procession of said doctrine wasn't considered innovation though prior to the schisms i.e.: the first seven councils. It wasn't until after the schism that some perceive theology to be no longer permitted to progress as if the Holy Spirit stopped guiding the Church at that point. Its also curious to note that where Eastern theology has progressed since the schism is seen by some as normal while where Western theology has progressed does not. The argument against development of doctrine because it wasn't always done ecumenically is weak at best. The Holy Spirit blows where He wills and is not constrained to reveal anything on our terms. I am more than willing to ascend to where Eastern theology has progressed. Conversely though how can I be expected to deny what I feel has been revealed to me through the Church by the Holy Spirit, i.e.: pergatory and the unity of the Trinity? I would have to become apostate to so.

While ecumenically if each doctrine and its historical progression is scrutinized it can be IMHO reasonably shown that they have either progressed in unison despite the schism or and where they have diverged neither is contrary to the deposit of faith. Hence the two lungs each exhaling the guiding breath of the Holy Spirit.

It is up to the West to understand the emphasized perspectives of the East and to the East to follow and understand the progression of the West to where it is at present. Then we arrive at the same place and doctrine and theology can once again progress in unity.

What remains of the "10%" for me is what is being addressed at Ravenna and resulting in the topic of this thread. Once our respective hierarchies seal the deal they will once again be developing doctrine with the ascent of all 12 apostles simultaneously. Although when the Lord sent them out He promised them to be guided by the Holy Spirit, but He never the less sent them out in different directions. This is how we can retain unity that doesn't require uniformity.

Peace.


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« Reply #100 on: November 29, 2007, 02:20:20 PM »

Quote
Its also curious to note that where Eastern theology has progressed since the schism is seen by some as normal

Examples, for instance?
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« Reply #101 on: November 29, 2007, 02:22:12 PM »


Once our respective hierarchies seal the deal they will once again be developing doctrine with the ascent of all 12 apostles simultaneously. Although when the Lord sent them out He promised them to be guided by the Holy Spirit, but He never the less sent them out in different directions. This is how we can retain unity that doesn't require uniformity.


That sounds all well and good and is an admirable ambition, but don't go pulling out the champagne glasses yet.  I only see one Patriarch making statements about unity.  Who'd like to take me up on a bet that if the EP said we are going to be united, the Russians would immediately call for deposition of the EP and assume by the EP's supposed heretical actions that they had truly become the New Rome.  
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« Reply #102 on: November 29, 2007, 02:31:40 PM »

That sounds all well and good and is an admirable ambition, but don't go pulling out the champagne glasses yet.  I only see one Patriarch making statements about unity.  Who'd like to take me up on a bet that if the EP said we are going to be united, the Russians would immediately call for deposition of the EP and assume by the EP's supposed heretical actions that they had truly become the New Rome.  

I don't think it would be immediate.

By the way, has there been any resolution over the Estonian issue that caused Russia to walk out of Ravenna? Anyone?

Peace.
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« Reply #103 on: November 29, 2007, 02:36:12 PM »

As the Orthodox have always been willing to accept an Orthodox Pope of Rome, I still don't understand this issue here.

(What does Estonia have to do with this?)
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« Reply #104 on: November 29, 2007, 02:45:26 PM »

As the Orthodox have always been willing to accept an Orthodox Pope of Rome, I still don't understand this issue here.

(What does Estonia have to do with this?)

There is a dispute over territorial rites between Moscow and Constantinople that caused Alexis to walk out of Ravenna at the onset of the talks because the Estonians who were loyal to the EP had been invited.

I am surprised you are unaware of this.

Moscow Patriarchate Quits Orthodox-Catholic Talks
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« Reply #105 on: November 29, 2007, 02:48:03 PM »

I am not unaware of this. But what relevance is this here?
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« Reply #106 on: November 29, 2007, 02:52:32 PM »

I am not unaware of this. But what relevance is this here?

Moscow wasn't at the talks.
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« Reply #107 on: November 29, 2007, 02:55:06 PM »

So?

I've yet to read in English the article that spawned this thread.
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« Reply #108 on: November 29, 2007, 03:09:23 PM »

So?

I've yet to read in English the article that spawned this thread.

Most likely was one of these:

http://www.zenit.org/article-21041?l=english
http://www.zenit.org/article-21012?l=english
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« Reply #109 on: November 29, 2007, 03:24:14 PM »

The second is the document produced and certainly not threatening, IMO, to us Orthodox. In fact, it ends with the same questions unresolved as every other conference I have read.
"Remains to be settled":
Quote
45. It remains for the question of the role of the bishop of Rome in the communion of all the Churches to be studied in greater depth. What is the specific function of the bishop of the "first see" in an ecclesiology of koinônia and in view of what we have said on conciliarity and authority in the present text? How should the teaching of the first and second Vatican councils on the universal primacy be understood and lived in the light of the ecclesial practice of the first millennium? These are crucial questions for our dialogue and for our hopes of restoring full communion between us.

This, however, is not the Russian language opinion piece the OP posted, and so I have no idea what that contained to support the EP as ready to accept etc....

As to the commissions work... or "progress", I'm not holding my breath.
I suspect that is a usual snipe at the EP in their running battle of only, say 400 years or so, over  who is to be considered topdog.
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« Reply #110 on: November 29, 2007, 04:07:49 PM »

The second is the document produced and certainly not threatening, IMO, to us Orthodox. In fact, it ends with the same questions unresolved as every other conference I have read.
"Remains to be settled":

I realize it remains to be seen and would be only speculation at this point:

In your personal opinion do you think the devolution of "supremacy" back to "primacy" has finally reached a palatable level for the conciliar commission to accept as it currently is?

Peace.
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« Reply #111 on: November 29, 2007, 04:09:03 PM »

This, however, is not the Russian language opinion piece the OP posted, and so I have no idea what that contained to support the EP as ready to accept etc....

It was an interview that patriarch Bartholomew gave to Bulgarian TV.
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« Reply #112 on: November 29, 2007, 04:29:49 PM »

Okay, thanks.   Smiley  I would be geniunely interested, BTW, to see you or someone else start another thread about dealings with other ecclesial bodies that might be considered suspect.   

Started here:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13616.msg189601.html#msg189601
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« Reply #113 on: November 29, 2007, 04:57:02 PM »

It was an interview that patriarch Bartholomew gave to Bulgarian TV.

Great, now to get a hold of it in English, or Spanish, or Greek...I'm Russian deficient  Embarrassed
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« Reply #114 on: November 30, 2007, 12:44:52 PM »

Does anyone know the jurisdictions which were all represented at the meeting? So far I've only seen two (EP + MP), but I heard from someone that there were more.
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« Reply #115 on: November 30, 2007, 01:10:13 PM »

Does anyone know the jurisdictions which were all represented at the meeting? So far I've only seen two (EP + MP), but I heard from someone that there were more.

It was a plenary session of the Joint International Commission for Theological Dialogue between the Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic Church, so pretty much everybody was there. It's a huge, multi-Church dialogue. Here's a bit from an article:

Quote
The Orthodox members (metropolitans, bishops; priests and lay theologians) represented the Ecumenical Patriarchate, the Patriarchate of Alexandria, the Patriarchate of Antioch, the Patriarchate of Jerusalem, the Patriarchate of Moscow, the Patriarchate of Serbia, the Patriarchate of Romania, the Patriarchate of Georgia, the Church of Cyprus, the Church of Greece, the Church of Poland, the Church of Albania, the Church of Czech Lands and Slovakia, the Church of Finland and the Apostolic Church of Estonia. The representatives of the Patriarchate of Bulgaria were unable to attend.
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« Reply #116 on: November 30, 2007, 06:12:12 PM »

Orthodox patriarch accepts papal primacy-- in part

Rome, Nov. 28, 2007 (CWNews.com) - Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew I of Constantinople has said that he is prepared to recognize the primacyof the Pope--although he does not accept the Catholic position on the implications of that primacy.

In an interview with a Bulgarian television network, the Orthodox leader-- who is himself recognized as the "first among equals" in the Orthodox world-- indicated his support for a statement released by the joint Catholic-Orthodox theological commission at an October meeting in Ravenna, Italy. That statement had recalled that during the first
Christian millennium, the Bishop of Rome was recognized as the foremost of the patriarchs.

Patriarch Bartholomew went on to say, however, that he does not believe the primacy enjoyed by the Pope in the early centuries of Christianity included authority over other patriarchs. The primacy of Rome, he explained, involved precedence of honor rather than disciplinary status over the world's bishops.

cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=55012


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« Reply #117 on: November 30, 2007, 06:19:57 PM »

Does anyone know the jurisdictions which were all represented at the meeting?
"Twenty seven of the 30 Catholic members (cardinals, archbishops, bishops, priests and lay theologians) were present.

The Orthodox members (metropolitans, bishops; priests and lay theologians) represented

the Ecumenical Patriarchate,

the Patriarchate of Alexandria,

the Patriarchate of Antioch,

the Patriarchate of Jerusalem,

the Patriarchate of Serbia,

the Patriarchate of Romania,

the Patriarchate of Georgia,

the Church of Cyprus,

the Church of Greece,

the Church of Poland,

the Church of Albania,

the Church of Czech Lands and Slovakia,

the Church of Finland

the Apostolic Church of Estonia."

http://www.zenit.org/article-20743?l=english
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« Reply #118 on: November 30, 2007, 07:27:41 PM »

So, in essence, the EP has the same position on this he always has. No news here.
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« Reply #119 on: November 30, 2007, 10:27:45 PM »

So, in essence, the EP has the same position on this he always has. No news here.

Quote
Rome, Nov. 28, 2007 (CWNews.com) - Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew I of Constantinople has said that he is prepared to recognize the primacy of the Pope--although he does not accept the Catholic position on the implications of that primacy
.

What may be news worthy though is that during His visit to the EP the Pontiff said it was time for Rome to make the necessary concessions for unity.

This conference is evident of that process and the EP's statement reflects the efforts being made to that end.

It remains to be seen if the implications of primacy he does not accept will be reconciled. At least both sides are open to unity so hope remains that they will.

Surely what that will mean for both Catholic and Orthodox praxis is being considered.

Undoubtedly and unfortunately whatever those concessions are will not sit well with some should they in fact find reconciliation.

Peace.
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« Reply #120 on: November 30, 2007, 10:31:15 PM »

I realize it remains to be seen and would be only speculation at this point:

In your personal opinion do you think the devolution of "supremacy" back to "primacy" has finally reached a palatable level for the conciliar commission to accept as it currently is?

Peace.

Sorry I missed this question yesterday. My belated answer is "not yet".

And this echoes your post above.
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« Reply #121 on: November 30, 2007, 11:11:45 PM »

Sorry I missed this question yesterday. My belated answer is "not yet".

And this echoes your post above.

Thanks for the honest answer.

Peace.
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« Reply #122 on: December 03, 2007, 03:25:30 PM »

You have a point, Pravoslavbob. But as Fr. Ambrose pointed out, in Catholicism there are no autocephalous churches except the Latin Church. Among the EC churches, the closest thing to an autocephalous church is the autonomous patriarchates (6 of them, to be exact).

Peter,

I don't really see what autocephalous standing should have to do with it, since the various agreements of union with Rome that have been promulgated since the late sixteenth century (or even earleri) have almost all guaranteed that the Eastern Churches entering into union had the right to retain their various disciplines and traditions.  Although recent popes have tried to make good on these promises, in all cases these agreements have been broken and continue to be broken to this day.
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« Reply #123 on: December 03, 2007, 03:47:55 PM »

I'm wating to see the other patriarch's reaction to this.  Heck, I'm waiting to see the reaction from Met. Phillip about this.  Even with all the press, I don't see it ending well, or maybe just blowing over.  That seems to be the pattern.  People want unity, they see how deep the gulf really is, or rehash the same arguements, and *pouff*, story over. 

I agree with what was stated earleir.  If we can't get our Oriental Brothers to the table (or visce versa), how's this gonna work?
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« Reply #124 on: December 03, 2007, 03:53:50 PM »

Peter,

I don't really see what autocephalous standing should have to do with it, since the various agreements of union with Rome that have been promulgated since the late sixteenth century (or even earleri) have almost all guaranteed that the Eastern Churches entering into union had the right to retain their various disciplines and traditions.  Although recent popes have tried to make good on these promises, in all cases these agreements have been broken and continue to be broken to this day.

Again, good points.

Just to clarify, are you basically saying that if Rome does make good on its promises (which I guess is a big if), then the EC Churches should be satisfied with that and not ask for autocephalous standing, or are you saying something else?

God bless,
Peter.
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« Reply #125 on: December 03, 2007, 05:09:47 PM »

Although recent popes have tried to make good on these promises, in all cases these agreements have been broken and continue to be broken to this day.

How so?
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« Reply #126 on: December 03, 2007, 05:58:00 PM »

Just to clarify, are you basically saying that if Rome does make good on its promises (which I guess is a big if), then the EC Churches should be satisfied with that and not ask for autocephalous standing, or are you saying something else?

What I am essentially saying is that the Orthodox have genuine cause to be wary when dealing with rapprochement with Rome, given the experience of the various Eastern Catholic Churches.  At first, there was a deliberate policy of latinisation put into practice for the Eastern Catholics.  Nowadays, since popes have come out in praise of eastern tradition and practice and want the Eastern Catholics to live this faith, you could say that some latinisation continues apace in clear disobedience to papal decrees, some is done "on the sly" and some policies that encourage latinisation are pursued in true ignorance of differences between eastern and western approaches to the Christian life.

I think that if the Western and Eastern Churches came closer to union that considerably more effort would be placed on understanding the position of the East on various issues than the attention that is presently given to Eastern Catholics.  Still, I don't think it is completely unreasonable of the Orthodox to say "Look at what has happened to the Eastern Catholic Churches: they've been aggresively latinized or treated with benign neglect, and even now suffer in the same ways.  Is this what awaits us upon union with Rome?  If so, then perhaps it may not be prudent to pursue such a union for the moment."  Personally, if there is a geniuine and sincere movement towards reconciliation taken, I think that the Orthodox should pursue it with vigor, but caution and prudence are always good qualities to hold to in situations like this.
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« Reply #127 on: December 03, 2007, 05:59:58 PM »

How so?

Through deliberate or "unconscious" policies of latinisation of the Eastern Catholics.
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« Reply #128 on: December 04, 2007, 06:32:32 PM »

Through deliberate or "unconscious" policies of latinisation of the Eastern Catholics.

Can you site any such deliberate Latinization since John Paul II or John XXIII for that matter? It was JPII who has encourged us to embrace Eastern Praxis and why many of us do so. This is not to insinuate any Easternization either. There is a point to this embrace that most sinners are missing and loosing in the letter of laws.


The discussion on Clerical Celibacy that was spurred by this post has been split into its own thread:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13848.0.html

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« Reply #129 on: December 05, 2007, 02:44:21 AM »

He still is, whatever the "West" means anymore, the Latin Church being in every corner of the globe. The Vatican only dropped it from the annual yearbook because they say it is no longer "useful" as a title. Not sure if it was a good idea, but it's just a title, and it didn't make it into the yearbook until 1863 anyway. The reality---that the Bishop of Rome is patriarch of the Latin Church---still exists.

The Bishop of Rome is patriarch of the eastern Catholics also, not only of the Latin rite Catholics.
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« Reply #130 on: December 05, 2007, 02:57:31 AM »

The Bishop of Rome is patriarch of the eastern Catholics also, not only of the Latin rite Catholics.

I know we are playing games with all the titles---in a general sense he is a patriarch, but in a jurisdictional/canon law sense he is Supreme Pontiff over the Eastern Catholics. Many of them already have patriarchs.
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« Reply #131 on: December 05, 2007, 05:08:10 AM »

  Eastern Catholic Churches that are found outside of their traditional territories are often at the whim of Latin authorities for various matters of discipline.  Take clerical celibacy.  In North America (and elsewhere), this is under the control of a papal representative of some kind, I forget his title and exact responsibilities. 
I think that this is true.
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« Reply #132 on: December 05, 2007, 06:16:14 PM »

Since Stanley has ably come to my defence (thank you, BTW Smiley) I will not assail you with the question "did you even bother to read my post?".

No rescuing needed from me my brother. I am not your rival and continue to learn to not engage in rivalry. By the way, I did read your post and only responded to address what I felt was the misconception in your accusation against Rome as unfounded. A matter of ancient church discipline hardly qualifies as Latinization as it is not “Latin” at all but in my view universally Christian for several reasons.

Though I would agree certain western devotions have been pushed, showing a lack of respect for Eastern praxis and culture none of this is officially encouraged by the Magisterium but instead stems from the zeal of the faithful. While others willing embrace each others devotions as efficacious while retaining from whence they came.
I would think that never should it be a matter of contention from either side lest it dishonor Christ’s message of peace, unity and love between any proclaimed Christian but especially between us East and West who should be setting a collegiate example for the world.

John Paul II addressed this by encouraging us to embrace Eastern praxis. Some of us have listened while others continue to proselytize and engage in polemics and rivalry in often unwitting disrespect of one another’s praxis or fear for their own. Such errors between brothers and sisters are not reflected by the consistency of our respective hierarchies and we should see it for what it is; religious pride resulting in sinful discord.

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I agree.

If only we could, then neither of us would ever engage in rivalry. I see it everywhere, even with-in my own praxis. It's sad.

Peace.
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« Reply #133 on: December 05, 2007, 10:10:23 PM »

I know we are playing games with all the titles---in a general sense he is a patriarch, but in a jurisdictional/canon law sense he is Supreme Pontiff over the Eastern Catholics. Many of them already have patriarchs.

Yes that is true. 'Patriarch' is just an honourific anyway.
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« Reply #134 on: December 05, 2007, 11:28:04 PM »

So is Pope. Wink
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« Reply #135 on: December 06, 2007, 09:26:18 AM »

So is Pope. Wink
Yes, it is just from the Latin word for father which is a very common priestly honourific.
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« Reply #136 on: December 06, 2007, 04:34:27 PM »

Though I would agree certain western devotions have been pushed, showing a lack of respect for Eastern praxis and culture none of this is officially encouraged by the Magisterium but instead stems from the zeal of the faithful.

TinaG and I have mentioned in previous posts that the Vatican bureaucracy is so vast, that often the "right hand does not know what the left hand is doing."  Of course the pushing of western praxis on the Eastern Catholics has not been official policy for some time.  But unless you include cardinals, highly placed archbishops and legates etc. as being among the "faithful" who show such "zealous" behaviour, I would have to at least  in part disagree with you. 
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« Reply #137 on: December 10, 2007, 06:34:44 AM »

The Poe

the Poe

Do you mean Edgar Allan?
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« Reply #138 on: December 10, 2007, 10:09:30 AM »

Do you mean Edgar Allan?

No winnie the  Grin
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« Reply #139 on: December 10, 2007, 10:58:33 AM »

Just to repeat, so it doesn't get lost in the shuffle (font enlarged for easier reading):


The discussion on Clerical Celibacy that was spurred by this post has been split into its own thread:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13848.0.html

- Cleveland, Global Moderator

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« Reply #140 on: December 10, 2007, 02:57:37 PM »

I like that larger font...no need for bi-focals or a magnifying glass
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« Reply #141 on: December 10, 2007, 03:03:18 PM »

I like that larger font...no need for bi-focals or a magnifying glass

Papou, anything to help!
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« Reply #142 on: August 09, 2008, 01:43:46 AM »

Someone above mentioned that if we reunite with the Roman Catholics, then we should also reunite with the Oriental Orthodox. I strongly agree with this, especially since I've hardly seen any attempts to unite with them. In fact, aggression between the Greek Orthodox and Armenian Orthodox Church continues, over stupid reasons. I also have heard that their monophysite theology is only a mistranslation from Greek to Coptic. I don't want to get too off topic, but anyone have information on this?

Also, the East-West schism should not be based off of 1204 aggression. The Catholics have apologized to us for this, and even returned the relics of St. John Chrysostom. What now separates us is purgatory, immaculate conception, pope's primacy, possible liturgical issues, and original sin. There may be more I haven't mentioned. The Orthodox, will not accept a union, unless these issues are resolved in the Eastern Orthodox favor, and vice versa with the Catholics.
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« Reply #143 on: August 10, 2008, 11:43:38 PM »

I also have heard that their monophysite theology is only a mistranslation from Greek to Coptic. I don't want to get too off topic, but anyone have information on this?


Yeah like about 500 pages of posts on this forum alone Cheesy check the search function.

Quote
Also, the East-West schism should not be based off of 1204 aggression. The Catholics have apologized to us for this, and even returned the relics of St. John Chrysostom. What now separates us is purgatory, immaculate conception, pope's primacy, possible liturgical issues, and original sin. There may be more I haven't mentioned. The Orthodox, will not accept a union, unless these issues are resolved in the Eastern Orthodox favor, and vice versa with the Catholics.

*Sigh* I have started to realize that we can't compartmentalize this issues because guess what that is a hang over from "western theology". It is not  "purgatory", "immaculate conception", "pope's primacy", "possible liturgical issues", and "original sin" but rather the foundation of the theological system in which the rational conclusion are these dogma's. You cannot "change" any part of the  Eastern Orthodox, The Roman Catholic and the Oriental Orthodox church because they are all tied down with specific foundations and once we understand these foundations we can understand why we are "different".
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« Reply #144 on: August 11, 2008, 12:28:50 AM »

*Sigh* I have started to realize that we can't compartmentalize this issues because guess what that is a hang over from "western theology". It is not  "purgatory", "immaculate conception", "pope's primacy", "possible liturgical issues", and "original sin" but rather the foundation of the theological system in which the rational conclusion are these dogma's. You cannot "change" any part of the  Eastern Orthodox, The Roman Catholic and the Oriental Orthodox church because they are all tied down with specific foundations and once we understand these foundations we can understand why we are "different".

Exactly - and with all claiming to be "right". Our "rightness", in the end, is dependant on personal conviction.
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« Reply #145 on: August 13, 2008, 04:44:07 PM »



Yeah like about 500 pages of posts on this forum alone Cheesy check the search function.

*Sigh* I have started to realize that we can't compartmentalize this issues because guess what that is a hang over from "western theology". It is not  "purgatory", "immaculate conception", "pope's primacy", "possible liturgical issues", and "original sin" but rather the foundation of the theological system in which the rational conclusion are these dogma's. You cannot "change" any part of the  Eastern Orthodox, The Roman Catholic and the Oriental Orthodox church because they are all tied down with specific foundations and once we understand these foundations we can understand why we are "different".

And do you think these foundational differences are resolvable?  Will the Churches end up equivocating, or just "agree to disagree"?  Or, will one side end up reconsidering its opinion.  I've seen more concessions from the Roman Catholic side, here....
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« Reply #146 on: August 16, 2008, 12:10:05 AM »

Well, if different foundations are leading to different theology, then how can the churches be compatible with each other?
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« Reply #147 on: August 16, 2008, 12:20:30 AM »

Well, if different foundations are leading to different theology, then how can the churches be compatible with each other?

Who says they are?
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« Reply #148 on: August 16, 2008, 02:13:46 AM »

Who says they are?
Perhaps the Orthodox, generally, would not agree, but from today's R. Catholic point of view, there is hopeful belief that the differences between the two Churches can be reconciled.
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« Reply #149 on: August 17, 2008, 09:03:30 PM »

Well, if different foundations are leading to different theology, then how can the churches be compatible with each other?
Who says they are?

I'm sorry if my post was misconstrued but I looked over it and no where did I say they are compatible. All I was saying is asking the same questions everyone has asked and saying they are the "end of the discussion is wrong". All I was putting forward to some inquirers was not to look at the end but rather at the beginning and see that we are not so strikingly different. Like I said before I dislike when people "If we join with the Catholics they have to remove the filoque and universal jurisdiction" when it's not that easy. There has been 2000 years of tradition between both churches and both looked at certain things with a particular foundation, which believe it or not come from the beginning of Genesis and then looked at it through "Western" or "Eastern" glasses, then they came to the conclusions that we see know through the teaching of the Great Saints in both cultures. It's no surprise that arguments between Palamas and Barlaam would have arisen due to these conflicts but don't for one second think we are dire opposites because we are not.

To sum up what I am trying to say is that it is really childish and simplistic to simply write off the Catholics or even the Orthodox because of there Ecclesiology or Atonement beliefs. Have some faith that both sides will realizse there human errors and join together in Christian love.
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« Reply #150 on: February 04, 2009, 09:29:49 AM »

This is really good news to hear although I see no amazing paradigm  shifts as this should already be normative Orthodox belief.


I don't consider it good news at all, unless some major changes take place on the Latin end of the spectrum.  Bartholomew will end up like Nestorius, if he isn't careful, or at the very least, a Patriarch without any followers.
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« Reply #151 on: February 04, 2009, 09:37:27 AM »

This is really good news to hear although I see no amazing paradigm  shifts as this should already be normative Orthodox belief.


I don't consider it good news at all, unless some major changes take place on the Latin end of the spectrum.  Bartholomew will end up like Nestorius, if he isn't careful, or at the very least, a Patriarch without any followers.

*Sigh* Um, the OP is a year and a half old, and nothing has happened.  Trust me, nothing will happen anytime soon, and when it does, it will be founded on unity of Faith and Doctrine - nothing less.
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« Reply #152 on: February 04, 2009, 09:39:47 AM »

This is really good news to hear although I see no amazing paradigm  shifts as this should already be normative Orthodox belief.


I don't consider it good news at all, unless some major changes take place on the Latin end of the spectrum.  Bartholomew will end up like Nestorius, if he isn't careful, or at the very least, a Patriarch without any followers.

The question isn't (nor has it ever been) whether he would accept the popes PRIMACY but will he accept the popes SUPREMACY!  There's a big difference!

Orthodoc
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« Reply #153 on: February 04, 2009, 11:38:00 AM »

This is really good news to hear although I see no amazing paradigm  shifts as this should already be normative Orthodox belief.


I don't consider it good news at all, unless some major changes take place on the Latin end of the spectrum.  Bartholomew will end up like Nestorius, if he isn't careful, or at the very least, a Patriarch without any followers.

The question isn't (nor has it ever been) whether he would accept the popes PRIMACY but will he accept the popes SUPREMACY!  There's a big difference!

Orthodoc



Being that His All Holiness, Bartholomew I, Archbishop of Constantinople New Rome and Ecumenical Patriarch was educated by Jesuits (so I've been told), I think he is itching to become the first Pope himself.   

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« Reply #154 on: February 04, 2009, 12:09:30 PM »

Being that Bartholomew was educated by Jesuits (so I've been told), I think he is itching to become the first Pope himself.   

 Roll Eyes

We need to start a "Stupid Forum" for threads like this one.
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« Reply #155 on: February 04, 2009, 05:07:54 PM »

Now the king of the idiots (aka. me) can be mod Cheesy
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« Reply #156 on: February 04, 2009, 05:10:37 PM »

Being that Bartholomew was educated by Jesuits (so I've been told), I think he is itching to become the first Pope himself.    

Why don't you ask him, instead of speculating about it behind his back...
Oh, wait - condemnation has passed, there's no need to question the accused.
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« Reply #157 on: February 04, 2009, 07:50:50 PM »

Being that Bartholomew was educated by Jesuits (so I've been told), I think he is itching to become the first Pope himself.   

 Roll Eyes

We need to start a "Stupid Forum" for threads like this one.

I guess I don't understand. This thread is stupid why???
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« Reply #158 on: February 04, 2009, 07:53:28 PM »

Being that Bartholomew was educated by Jesuits (so I've been told), I think he is itching to become the first Pope himself.    

Why don't you ask him, instead of speculating about it behind his back...
Oh, wait - condemnation has passed, there's no need to question the accused.


Like Ecumenical Patriarch would bother to even give me the time of day. He is too busy making friends with Benedict...[/b]
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« Reply #159 on: February 04, 2009, 07:54:22 PM »

This is really good news to hear although I see no amazing paradigm  shifts as this should already be normative Orthodox belief.


I don't consider it good news at all, unless some major changes take place on the Latin end of the spectrum.  Bartholomew will end up like Nestorius, if he isn't careful, or at the very least, a Patriarch without any followers.

The question isn't (nor has it ever been) whether he would accept the popes PRIMACY but will he accept the popes SUPREMACY!  There's a big difference!

Orthodoc



Being that Bartholomew was educated by Jesuits (so I've been told), I think he is itching to become the first Pope himself.   

Not only do we need a 'stupid forum' for posts like these but one for people who are disrespectful and do not write the proper clergy title in front of a Patriarch's name, or a Bishop's name, etc... seriously if you're truly in ROCOR then you are in communion with Patriarch Bartholomew.  If you can't accept that then you aren't in communion with the church, repentance and confession will solve that issue.
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« Reply #160 on: February 04, 2009, 07:56:20 PM »

QUESTION:
I guess I don't understand. This thread is stupid why???

ANSWER:
Like the EC would bother to even give me the time of day. He is too busy making friends with Benedict...

 Roll Eyes
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« Reply #161 on: February 04, 2009, 07:57:50 PM »

Can someone sensible please explain to me what "EC" stands for?
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« Reply #162 on: February 04, 2009, 08:01:56 PM »

Can someone sensible please explain to me what "EC" stands for?

I'm at a loss myself.
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« Reply #163 on: February 04, 2009, 08:07:08 PM »

Can someone sensible please explain to me what "EC" stands for?


Excuuuuuuse Me!   I meant "EP" as in Ecumenical Patriarch. 
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« Reply #164 on: February 04, 2009, 08:07:31 PM »

Mark of Ephesus, please refrain from using a disrespectful attitude towards members of the Orthodox clergy.  You may disagree with them, but that does not mean you have to use such a poor and hostile tone when refering to them and their actions.  The Ecumenical Patriarch is a member of the Church of Christ and you should respect not only his office, but his person as well.

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« Reply #165 on: February 04, 2009, 08:08:40 PM »

Can someone sensible please explain to me what "EC" stands for?


Excuuuuuuse Me!   I meant "EP" as in Ecumenical Patriarch. 

Thanks, but I was actually after someone sensible.
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« Reply #166 on: February 04, 2009, 08:11:59 PM »

Can someone sensible please explain to me what "EC" stands for?


Excuuuuuuse Me!   I meant "EP" as in Ecumenical Patriarch. 

How do you expect people to react?  You sign up to the forum and walk into a thread that was dormant for a long time and start accusations and being erroneous and crass.  It's like walking into a room of strangers and starting some wild conversation with wild accusations and expecting people to take you seriously, it just doesn't happen.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2009, 08:12:18 PM by username! » Logged

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« Reply #167 on: February 04, 2009, 08:12:25 PM »

QUESTION:
I guess I don't understand. This thread is stupid why???

ANSWER:
Like the EC would bother to even give me the time of day. He is too busy making friends with Benedict...

 Roll Eyes


I am sorry if you don't like my opinion about the Ecumenical Patriarch. ( I can assure you I am not the ONLY one that dislikes the way he does things.)
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« Reply #168 on: February 04, 2009, 08:16:08 PM »

I am sorry if you don't like my opinion about the Ecumenical Patriarch. ( I can assure you I am not the ONLY one that dislikes the way he does things.)
Oh, you have every right to your opinion. It's just that you express it like a juvenile.
Now let's see if you like the way I do things.
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« Reply #169 on: February 04, 2009, 08:16:52 PM »

Can someone sensible please explain to me what "EC" stands for?


Excuuuuuuse Me!   I meant "EP" as in Ecumenical Patriarch. 

How do you expect people to react?  You sign up to the forum and walk into a thread that was dormant for a long time and start accusations and being erroneous and crass.  It's like walking into a room of strangers and starting some wild conversation with wild accusations and expecting people to take you seriously, it just doesn't happen.


Let's get a few things straight:

1. It doesn't matter whether I "just signed up" or not. I am an Orthodox Christian.
2. I am not making wild accusations. My Priest, who is knowledgeable, told me that some time ago.
3. You should act just a little more like a Christian, instead of the way you are acting now.

Take it or leave it.  God Be With You.
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« Reply #170 on: February 04, 2009, 08:19:37 PM »

I am sorry if you don't like my opinion about the Ecumenical Patriarch. ( I can assure you I am not the ONLY one that dislikes the way he does things.)
Oh, you have every right to your opinion. It's just that you express it like a juvenile.
Now let's see if you like the way I do things.


I think you enjoy what you do, and I think that you are a poor example of a Christian. If you had a problem, the polite thing to do would have been to send me a private message. I don't try to offend anyone. Instead you chose to attack me.
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« Reply #171 on: February 04, 2009, 08:26:39 PM »

I think you enjoy what you do,
Yep

and I think that you are a poor example of a Christian.
Yep. Guilty as charged.

If you had a problem, the polite thing to do would have been to send me a private message.
And if you have a problem, the polite thing to do is to address His All Holiness, the Oecumenical Patriarch by his correct title.

I don't try to offend anyone.
Sorry, but you failed there.


Instead you chose to attack me.
Hmmmm. Lets see. Why did this post need to be edited?
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13577.msg288961.html#msg288961

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« Reply #172 on: February 04, 2009, 08:26:50 PM »

Can someone sensible please explain to me what "EC" stands for?


Excuuuuuuse Me!   I meant "EP" as in Ecumenical Patriarch. 

How do you expect people to react?  You sign up to the forum and walk into a thread that was dormant for a long time and start accusations and being erroneous and crass.  It's like walking into a room of strangers and starting some wild conversation with wild accusations and expecting people to take you seriously, it just doesn't happen.


Let's get a few things straight:

1. It doesn't matter whether I "just signed up" or not. I am an Orthodox Christian.
2. I am not making wild accusations. My Priest, who is knowledgeable, told me that some time ago.
3. You should act just a little more like a Christian, instead of the way you are acting now.

Take it or leave it.  God Be With You.

Well, to be in communion with someone means you accept all the bishops of the canonical Orthodox Church.  I'm sorry you have separated yourself from the chalice through openly rejecting a bishop of the Eastern Orthodox Church.  It does matter whether you just signed up, it doesn't go far for your credibility the way you walked in and are acting like a juvenile.
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« Reply #173 on: February 04, 2009, 08:33:23 PM »

This is really good news to hear although I see no amazing paradigm  shifts as this should already be normative Orthodox belief.


I don't consider it good news at all, unless some major changes take place on the Latin end of the spectrum.  Bartholomew will end up like Nestorius, if he isn't careful, or at the very least, a Patriarch without any followers.

The question isn't (nor has it ever been) whether he would accept the popes PRIMACY but will he accept the popes SUPREMACY!  There's a big difference!

Orthodoc



Being that His All Holiness, Bartholomew I, Archbishop of Constantinople New Rome and Ecumenical Patriarch was educated by Jesuits (so I've been told), I think he is itching to become the first Pope himself.   

Please refer to Orthodox clergy by their proper titles.

-- Nebelpfade


You have evidence he was taught by Jesuits, or is it just gossip and rumours?
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« Reply #174 on: February 04, 2009, 08:33:53 PM »

Can someone sensible please explain to me what "EC" stands for?


Excuuuuuuse Me!   I meant "EP" as in Ecumenical Patriarch. 

How do you expect people to react?  You sign up to the forum and walk into a thread that was dormant for a long time and start accusations and being erroneous and crass.  It's like walking into a room of strangers and starting some wild conversation with wild accusations and expecting people to take you seriously, it just doesn't happen.


Let's get a few things straight:

1. It doesn't matter whether I "just signed up" or not. I am an Orthodox Christian.
2. I am not making wild accusations. My Priest, who is knowledgeable, told me that some time ago.
3. You should act just a little more like a Christian, instead of the way you are acting now.

Take it or leave it.  God Be With You.

Well, to be in communion with someone means you accept all the bishops of the canonical Orthodox Church.  I'm sorry you have separated yourself from the chalice through openly rejecting a bishop of the Eastern Orthodox Church.  It does matter whether you just signed up, it doesn't go far for your credibility the way you walked in and are acting like a juvenile.


OK. I accept the Ecumenical Patriarch, I just don't agree with some of his actions.
As for being juvenile, hacking my profile and changing my avatar without my permission is beyond that.
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« Reply #175 on: February 04, 2009, 08:36:06 PM »

This is really good news to hear although I see no amazing paradigm  shifts as this should already be normative Orthodox belief.


I don't consider it good news at all, unless some major changes take place on the Latin end of the spectrum.  Bartholomew will end up like Nestorius, if he isn't careful, or at the very least, a Patriarch without any followers.




The question isn't (nor has it ever been) whether he would accept the popes PRIMACY but will he accept the popes SUPREMACY!  There's a big difference!

Orthodoc



Being that His All Holiness, Bartholomew I, Archbishop of Constantinople New Rome and Ecumenical Patriarch was educated by Jesuits (so I've been told), I think he is itching to become the first Pope himself.   

Please refer to Orthodox clergy by their proper titles.

-- Nebelpfade


You have evidence he was taught by Jesuits, or is it just gossip and rumours?


You can contact my Priest, Fr. John Whiteford and ask him if you wish.  If you need an e-mail, I will be happy to provide it. I do trust his word. That is where I heard the info.



Edited to fix quotation.  That is all.

-- Nebelpfade
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« Reply #176 on: February 04, 2009, 08:36:41 PM »

Let's get a few things straight:

Why start now?

Quote
1. It doesn't matter whether I "just signed up" or not. I am an Orthodox Christian.

Then behave like one.

Quote
2. I am not making wild accusations. My Priest, who is knowledgeable, told me that some time ago.

Okay, so you're not making wild accusations.  Instead, you're making wild accusations founded solely on hearsay.
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« Reply #177 on: February 04, 2009, 08:37:58 PM »

You have evidence he was taught by Jesuits, or is it just gossip and rumours?

He did some of his post-grad work at the Pontificium Institutum Orientalium which is entrusted to the Society of Jesus.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2009, 08:39:39 PM by Nebelpfade » Logged

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« Reply #178 on: February 04, 2009, 08:39:40 PM »

Let's get a few things straight:

Why start now?

Quote
1. It doesn't matter whether I "just signed up" or not. I am an Orthodox Christian.

Then behave like one.

Quote
2. I am not making wild accusations. My Priest, who is knowledgeable, told me that some time ago.

Okay, so you're not making wild accusations.  Instead, you're making wild accusations founded solely on hearsay.



Look. I am not trying to stir a pot. I was just giving an opinion. The information came from my Priest. Don't you trust yours? Smiley


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« Reply #179 on: February 04, 2009, 08:40:42 PM »

You have evidence he was taught by Jesuits, or is it just gossip and rumours?

He did some of his post-grad work at the Pontificium Institutum Orientalium which is entrusted to the Society of Jesus.
.


There ya go.  Maybe that is where the info came from.
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« Reply #180 on: February 04, 2009, 08:41:11 PM »

Let's get a few things straight:

Why start now?

Quote
1. It doesn't matter whether I "just signed up" or not. I am an Orthodox Christian.

Then behave like one.

Quote
2. I am not making wild accusations. My Priest, who is knowledgeable, told me that some time ago.

Okay, so you're not making wild accusations.  Instead, you're making wild accusations founded solely on hearsay.



Look. I am not trying to stir a pot. I was just giving an opinion. The information came from my Priest. Don't you trust yours? Smiley




If you are not trying to stir the pot, why dig up old threads?
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« Reply #181 on: February 04, 2009, 08:41:24 PM »

Can someone sensible please explain to me what "EC" stands for?


Excuuuuuuse Me!   I meant "EP" as in Ecumenical Patriarch. 

How do you expect people to react?  You sign up to the forum and walk into a thread that was dormant for a long time and start accusations and being erroneous and crass.  It's like walking into a room of strangers and starting some wild conversation with wild accusations and expecting people to take you seriously, it just doesn't happen.


Let's get a few things straight:

1. It doesn't matter whether I "just signed up" or not. I am an Orthodox Christian.
2. I am not making wild accusations. My Priest, who is knowledgeable, told me that some time ago.
3. You should act just a little more like a Christian, instead of the way you are acting now.

Take it or leave it.  God Be With You.

Well, to be in communion with someone means you accept all the bishops of the canonical Orthodox Church.  I'm sorry you have separated yourself from the chalice through openly rejecting a bishop of the Eastern Orthodox Church.  It does matter whether you just signed up, it doesn't go far for your credibility the way you walked in and are acting like a juvenile.


OK. I accept the Ecumenical Patriarch, I just don't agree with some of his actions.
As for being juvenile, hacking my profile and changing my avatar without my permission is beyond that.

You're right! It is juvenile!
Welcome to the forum Mark!
We're actually a pretty good bunch here. Yes we argue with each other about different matters, but we try to respect each other, and we certainly don't insult one another's heirarchs, even if we are not in Communion with them.
BTW, would you like this as an avatar?



I thought the caption: "I DON'T THINK WE'RE IN KANSAS ANY MORE TOTO" might be good. What do you think?
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« Reply #182 on: February 04, 2009, 08:42:12 PM »

I agree, I second the motion for the new avatar. 
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« Reply #183 on: February 04, 2009, 08:44:02 PM »

Thirded.
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« Reply #184 on: February 04, 2009, 08:44:39 PM »

So let it be written, so let it be done.
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« Reply #185 on: February 04, 2009, 08:45:20 PM »

Let's get a few things straight:

Why start now?

Quote
1. It doesn't matter whether I "just signed up" or not. I am an Orthodox Christian.

Then behave like one.

Quote
2. I am not making wild accusations. My Priest, who is knowledgeable, told me that some time ago.

Okay, so you're not making wild accusations.  Instead, you're making wild accusations founded solely on hearsay.



Look. I am not trying to stir a pot. I was just giving an opinion. The information came from my Priest. Don't you trust yours? Smiley




If you are not trying to stir the pot, why dig up old threads?


Hey, I didn't notice the date. It was a good subject, I posted. No conspiracy, or trolling here.
I apologize. I do respect the Office of the Ecumenical Patriarch, I just don't agree with his actions a lot of the time. I mean, I was under the impression you can debate and discuss things of this nature. Was I wrong?
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« Reply #186 on: February 04, 2009, 08:46:47 PM »

Look. I am not trying to stir a pot.

Shenanigans.

Quote
I was just giving an opinion.

Is that what that steaming pile of something was?  I couldn't tell.

Quote
The information came from my Priest.

How nice.

Quote
Don't you trust yours? Smiley

Trusting mine doesn't lead me to making accusations based on rumor.  What, can't think for yourself?
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« Reply #187 on: February 04, 2009, 08:47:54 PM »

Can someone sensible please explain to me what "EC" stands for?


Excuuuuuuse Me!   I meant "EP" as in Ecumenical Patriarch. 

How do you expect people to react?  You sign up to the forum and walk into a thread that was dormant for a long time and start accusations and being erroneous and crass.  It's like walking into a room of strangers and starting some wild conversation with wild accusations and expecting people to take you seriously, it just doesn't happen.


Let's get a few things straight:

1. It doesn't matter whether I "just signed up" or not. I am an Orthodox Christian.
2. I am not making wild accusations. My Priest, who is knowledgeable, told me that some time ago.
3. You should act just a little more like a Christian, instead of the way you are acting now.

Take it or leave it.  God Be With You.

Well, to be in communion with someone means you accept all the bishops of the canonical Orthodox Church.  I'm sorry you have separated yourself from the chalice through openly rejecting a bishop of the Eastern Orthodox Church.  It does matter whether you just signed up, it doesn't go far for your credibility the way you walked in and are acting like a juvenile.


OK. I accept the Ecumenical Patriarch, I just don't agree with some of his actions.
As for being juvenile, hacking my profile and changing my avatar without my permission is beyond that.

You're right! It is juvenile!
Welcome to the forum Mark!
We're actually a pretty good bunch here. Yes we argue with each other about different matters, but we try to respect each other, and we certainly don't insult one another's heirarchs, even if we are not in Communion with them.
BTW, would you like this as an avatar?



I thought the caption: "I DON'T THINK WE'RE IN KANSAS ANY MORE TOTO" might be good. What do you think?


I think I would rather keep mine. Besides, the last I saw, the Moscow Patriarchate is in communion with everybody canonical. Smiley


Fixed quotation.  That is all.

-- Nebelpfade
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« Reply #188 on: February 04, 2009, 08:48:13 PM »

So let it be written, so let it be done.

Oh OzGeorge?  Have you noticed the consensus?  
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« Reply #189 on: February 04, 2009, 08:50:00 PM »

I think I would rather keep mine. Besides, the last I saw, the Moscow Patriarchate is in communion with everybody canonical. Smiley
Oh dear, it's three against one! What to do?
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« Reply #190 on: February 04, 2009, 08:51:03 PM »

Can someone sensible please explain to me what "EC" stands for?


Excuuuuuuse Me!   I meant "EP" as in Ecumenical Patriarch. 

How do you expect people to react?  You sign up to the forum and walk into a thread that was dormant for a long time and start accusations and being erroneous and crass.  It's like walking into a room of strangers and starting some wild conversation with wild accusations and expecting people to take you seriously, it just doesn't happen.


Let's get a few things straight:

1. It doesn't matter whether I "just signed up" or not. I am an Orthodox Christian.
2. I am not making wild accusations. My Priest, who is knowledgeable, told me that some time ago.
3. You should act just a little more like a Christian, instead of the way you are acting now.

Take it or leave it.  God Be With You.

Well, to be in communion with someone means you accept all the bishops of the canonical Orthodox Church.  I'm sorry you have separated yourself from the chalice through openly rejecting a bishop of the Eastern Orthodox Church.  It does matter whether you just signed up, it doesn't go far for your credibility the way you walked in and are acting like a juvenile.


OK. I accept the Ecumenical Patriarch, I just don't agree with some of his actions.
As for being juvenile, hacking my profile and changing my avatar without my permission is beyond that.

You're right! It is juvenile!
Welcome to the forum Mark!
We're actually a pretty good bunch here. Yes we argue with each other about different matters, but we try to respect each other, and we certainly don't insult one another's heirarchs, even if we are not in Communion with them.
BTW, would you like this as an avatar?



I thought the caption: "I DON'T THINK WE'RE IN KANSAS ANY MORE TOTO" might be good. What do you think?



I think I would rather keep mine. Besides, the last I saw, the Moscow Patriarchate is in communion with everybody canonical. Smiley


That doesn't mean a person is in communion with the church, especially if he has openly denounced a bishop he is supposed to be in communion with.  The church is one, if you can't accept it then you're not a part of it, confession and repentance are the way back home.  Correcting the errors one has made that has placed him away from the chalice.  The Eucharist unites us all, if a person can't accept what the church teaches and those in the church as his brethren (judging a man, ie, a bishop would mean not accepting that person as his brother) then one has separated himself from the church.  Sorry it's Orthodoxy 101.  
contrary to popular belief one isn't an Orthodox Church member just because he or she has paid her yearly dues to the diocese and parish.
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« Reply #191 on: February 04, 2009, 08:51:19 PM »

Look. I am not trying to stir a pot.

Shenanigans.

Quote
I was just giving an opinion.

Is that what that steaming pile of something was?  I couldn't tell.

Quote
The information came from my Priest.

How nice.

Quote
Don't you trust yours? Smiley

Trusting mine doesn't lead me to making accusations based on rumor.  What, can't think for yourself?


Fr. John Whiteford, ROCOR is a very renowned scholar of the faith. Google him sometime.  I trust his word.

The bottom line here is I was just trying to debate, not insult.  Mea Culpa....Mea Maxima Culpa!  

I apologize already!
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« Reply #192 on: February 04, 2009, 08:51:37 PM »

Shenanigans.
Everybody grab a broom!
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« Reply #193 on: February 04, 2009, 08:52:32 PM »

I think I would rather keep mine. Besides, the last I saw, the Moscow Patriarchate is in communion with everybody canonical. Smiley
Oh dear, it's three against one! What to do?

In proper parliamentary procedure one must follow the decision made by the majority...3:1, what is your vote George?
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« Reply #194 on: February 04, 2009, 08:56:02 PM »

Can someone sensible please explain to me what "EC" stands for?





Excuuuuuuse Me!   I meant "EP" as in Ecumenical Patriarch. 

How do you expect people to react?  You sign up to the forum and walk into a thread that was dormant for a long time and start accusations and being erroneous and crass.  It's like walking into a room of strangers and starting some wild conversation with wild accusations and expecting people to take you seriously, it just doesn't happen.


Let's get a few things straight:

1. It doesn't matter whether I "just signed up" or not. I am an Orthodox Christian.
2. I am not making wild accusations. My Priest, who is knowledgeable, told me that some time ago.
3. You should act just a little more like a Christian, instead of the way you are acting now.

Take it or leave it.  God Be With You.

Well, to be in communion with someone means you accept all the bishops of the canonical Orthodox Church.  I'm sorry you have separated yourself from the chalice through openly rejecting a bishop of the Eastern Orthodox Church.  It does matter whether you just signed up, it doesn't go far for your credibility the way you walked in and are acting like a juvenile.


OK. I accept the Ecumenical Patriarch, I just don't agree with some of his actions.
As for being juvenile, hacking my profile and changing my avatar without my permission is beyond that.

You're right! It is juvenile!
Welcome to the forum Mark!
We're actually a pretty good bunch here. Yes we argue with each other about different matters, but we try to respect each other, and we certainly don't insult one another's heirarchs, even if we are not in Communion with them.
BTW, would you like this as an avatar?



I thought the caption: "I DON'T THINK WE'RE IN KANSAS ANY MORE TOTO" might be good. What do you think?



I think I would rather keep mine. Besides, the last I saw, the Moscow Patriarchate is in communion with everybody canonical. Smiley


That doesn't mean a person is in communion with the church, especially if he has openly denounced a bishop he is supposed to be in communion with.  The church is one, if you can't accept it then you're not a part of it, confession and repentance are the way back home.  Correcting the errors one has made that has placed him away from the chalice.  The Eucharist unites us all, if a person can't accept what the church teaches and those in the church as his brethren (judging a man, ie, a bishop would mean not accepting that person as his brother) then one has separated himself from the church.  Sorry it's Orthodoxy 101.  


OK, lets get this straight....You are telling me that it is not ok to criticize a Hierarch of the Church?  I think you are mistaken.  I can respect his office and not respect everything he does.

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« Reply #195 on: February 04, 2009, 08:57:49 PM »

Can someone sensible please explain to me what "EC" stands for?





Excuuuuuuse Me!   I meant "EP" as in Ecumenical Patriarch. 

How do you expect people to react?  You sign up to the forum and walk into a thread that was dormant for a long time and start accusations and being erroneous and crass.  It's like walking into a room of strangers and starting some wild conversation with wild accusations and expecting people to take you seriously, it just doesn't happen.


Let's get a few things straight:

1. It doesn't matter whether I "just signed up" or not. I am an Orthodox Christian.
2. I am not making wild accusations. My Priest, who is knowledgeable, told me that some time ago.
3. You should act just a little more like a Christian, instead of the way you are acting now.

Take it or leave it.  God Be With You.

Well, to be in communion with someone means you accept all the bishops of the canonical Orthodox Church.  I'm sorry you have separated yourself from the chalice through openly rejecting a bishop of the Eastern Orthodox Church.  It does matter whether you just signed up, it doesn't go far for your credibility the way you walked in and are acting like a juvenile.


OK. I accept the Ecumenical Patriarch, I just don't agree with some of his actions.
As for being juvenile, hacking my profile and changing my avatar without my permission is beyond that.

You're right! It is juvenile!
Welcome to the forum Mark!
We're actually a pretty good bunch here. Yes we argue with each other about different matters, but we try to respect each other, and we certainly don't insult one another's heirarchs, even if we are not in Communion with them.
BTW, would you like this as an avatar?



I thought the caption: "I DON'T THINK WE'RE IN KANSAS ANY MORE TOTO" might be good. What do you think?



I think I would rather keep mine. Besides, the last I saw, the Moscow Patriarchate is in communion with everybody canonical. Smiley


That doesn't mean a person is in communion with the church, especially if he has openly denounced a bishop he is supposed to be in communion with.  The church is one, if you can't accept it then you're not a part of it, confession and repentance are the way back home.  Correcting the errors one has made that has placed him away from the chalice.  The Eucharist unites us all, if a person can't accept what the church teaches and those in the church as his brethren (judging a man, ie, a bishop would mean not accepting that person as his brother) then one has separated himself from the church.  Sorry it's Orthodoxy 101.  


OK, lets get this straight....You are telling me that it is not ok to criticize a Hierarch of the Church?  I think you are mistaken.  I can respect his office and not respect everything he does.



Was it not our Lord who said not to judge, gossip and spread rumours?  It isn't I who have made up these commandments.
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« Reply #196 on: February 04, 2009, 08:59:14 PM »

Can someone sensible please explain to me what "EC" stands for?





Excuuuuuuse Me!   I meant "EP" as in Ecumenical Patriarch. 

How do you expect people to react?  You sign up to the forum and walk into a thread that was dormant for a long time and start accusations and being erroneous and crass.  It's like walking into a room of strangers and starting some wild conversation with wild accusations and expecting people to take you seriously, it just doesn't happen.


Let's get a few things straight:

1. It doesn't matter whether I "just signed up" or not. I am an Orthodox Christian.
2. I am not making wild accusations. My Priest, who is knowledgeable, told me that some time ago.
3. You should act just a little more like a Christian, instead of the way you are acting now.

Take it or leave it.  God Be With You.

Well, to be in communion with someone means you accept all the bishops of the canonical Orthodox Church.  I'm sorry you have separated yourself from the chalice through openly rejecting a bishop of the Eastern Orthodox Church.  It does matter whether you just signed up, it doesn't go far for your credibility the way you walked in and are acting like a juvenile.


OK. I accept the Ecumenical Patriarch, I just don't agree with some of his actions.
As for being juvenile, hacking my profile and changing my avatar without my permission is beyond that.

You're right! It is juvenile!
Welcome to the forum Mark!
We're actually a pretty good bunch here. Yes we argue with each other about different matters, but we try to respect each other, and we certainly don't insult one another's heirarchs, even if we are not in Communion with them.
BTW, would you like this as an avatar?



I thought the caption: "I DON'T THINK WE'RE IN KANSAS ANY MORE TOTO" might be good. What do you think?



I think I would rather keep mine. Besides, the last I saw, the Moscow Patriarchate is in communion with everybody canonical. Smiley


That doesn't mean a person is in communion with the church, especially if he has openly denounced a bishop he is supposed to be in communion with.  The church is one, if you can't accept it then you're not a part of it, confession and repentance are the way back home.  Correcting the errors one has made that has placed him away from the chalice.  The Eucharist unites us all, if a person can't accept what the church teaches and those in the church as his brethren (judging a man, ie, a bishop would mean not accepting that person as his brother) then one has separated himself from the church.  Sorry it's Orthodoxy 101.  


OK, lets get this straight....You are telling me that it is not ok to criticize a Hierarch of the Church?  I think you are mistaken.  I can respect his office and not respect everything he does.



Was it not our Lord who said not to judge, gossip and spread rumours?  It isn't I who have made up these commandments.


If I hear it from my Priest, it isn't a rumor. I consider it a fact.
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« Reply #197 on: February 04, 2009, 08:59:38 PM »

what is your vote George?
I vote for the Peace of the whole world, for the Stability of the holy Churches of God, and for the union of all.
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« Reply #198 on: February 04, 2009, 09:04:42 PM »

what is your vote George?
I vote for the Peace of the whole world, for the Stability of the holy Churches of God, and for the union of all.


Gentleman:

I have apologized the best way I know how, I am asking for your forgiveness, if I have insulted you. I enjoy debate and discussion with my Orthodox Brothers.  And that was my only intention.

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« Reply #199 on: February 04, 2009, 09:10:10 PM »

Gentleman:

I have apologized the best way I know how, I am asking for your forgiveness, if I have insulted you. I enjoy debate and discussion with my Orthodox Brothers.  And that was my only intention.

Granted.  Just be careful in the future (since I'm presuming you'll remain here on the forum in the future) about how you begin debate, and how you word your opinions and criticisms.

Like Ecumenical Patriarch would bother to even give me the time of day. He is too busy making friends with Benedict...[/b]

Actually, he would, if you visited and he's there.  I, in all my fat, balding, uninteresting glory had a one-on-one conversation with him for about 15 minutes once.  I wish that I had the foreknowledge that said conversation was going to occur - then I would have made better use of the time.
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« Reply #200 on: February 04, 2009, 09:14:14 PM »

Can someone sensible please explain to me what "EC" stands for?





Excuuuuuuse Me!   I meant "EP" as in Ecumenical Patriarch. 

How do you expect people to react?  You sign up to the forum and walk into a thread that was dormant for a long time and start accusations and being erroneous and crass.  It's like walking into a room of strangers and starting some wild conversation with wild accusations and expecting people to take you seriously, it just doesn't happen.


Let's get a few things straight:

1. It doesn't matter whether I "just signed up" or not. I am an Orthodox Christian.
2. I am not making wild accusations. My Priest, who is knowledgeable, told me that some time ago.
3. You should act just a little more like a Christian, instead of the way you are acting now.

Take it or leave it.  God Be With You.

Well, to be in communion with someone means you accept all the bishops of the canonical Orthodox Church.  I'm sorry you have separated yourself from the chalice through openly rejecting a bishop of the Eastern Orthodox Church.  It does matter whether you just signed up, it doesn't go far for your credibility the way you walked in and are acting like a juvenile.


OK. I accept the Ecumenical Patriarch, I just don't agree with some of his actions.
As for being juvenile, hacking my profile and changing my avatar without my permission is beyond that.

You're right! It is juvenile!
Welcome to the forum Mark!
We're actually a pretty good bunch here. Yes we argue with each other about different matters, but we try to respect each other, and we certainly don't insult one another's heirarchs, even if we are not in Communion with them.
BTW, would you like this as an avatar?



I thought the caption: "I DON'T THINK WE'RE IN KANSAS ANY MORE TOTO" might be good. What do you think?



I think I would rather keep mine. Besides, the last I saw, the Moscow Patriarchate is in communion with everybody canonical. Smiley


That doesn't mean a person is in communion with the church, especially if he has openly denounced a bishop he is supposed to be in communion with.  The church is one, if you can't accept it then you're not a part of it, confession and repentance are the way back home.  Correcting the errors one has made that has placed him away from the chalice.  The Eucharist unites us all, if a person can't accept what the church teaches and those in the church as his brethren (judging a man, ie, a bishop would mean not accepting that person as his brother) then one has separated himself from the church.  Sorry it's Orthodoxy 101.  


OK, lets get this straight....You are telling me that it is not ok to criticize a Hierarch of the Church?  I think you are mistaken.  I can respect his office and not respect everything he does.



Was it not our Lord who said not to judge, gossip and spread rumours?  It isn't I who have made up these commandments.


If I hear it from my Priest, it isn't a rumor. I consider it a fact.

Still, judging is something only the Lord can do.  It isn't up to me and you.  That's Christianity 101.  Regardless of who told you this basic Christian principles should tell you that judging a fellow brother in Christ, especially a Bishop, breaks these basic Christian principles.
Welcome to the forum!
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« Reply #201 on: February 04, 2009, 09:15:45 PM »

Sometimes it is necessary to make a criticism about a hierarch but I believe what was disconcerting in this thread was the spirit of denunciation which is a bit different.

But I think that Mark of Ephesus realizes that now so let's move on.
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« Reply #202 on: February 04, 2009, 09:16:39 PM »

Gentleman:

I have apologized the best way I know how, I am asking for your forgiveness, if I have insulted you. I enjoy debate and discussion with my Orthodox Brothers.  And that was my only intention.

Granted.  Just be careful in the future (since I'm presuming you'll remain here on the forum in the future) about how you begin debate, and how you word your opinions and criticisms.

Like Ecumenical Patriarch would bother to even give me the time of day. He is too busy making friends with Benedict...[/b]

Actually, he would, if you visited and he's there.  I, in all my fat, balding, uninteresting glory had a one-on-one conversation with him for about 15 minutes once.  I wish that I had the foreknowledge that said conversation was going to occur - then I would have made better use of the time.



If I may continue the subject, there is a lot of speculation, that His Holiness, Patriarch Bartholomew, is bent on reunion with Rome, whether or not the other patriarchates are in agreement. (In many of the local parishes, here, that is a topic of discussion.)
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« Reply #203 on: February 04, 2009, 09:18:14 PM »

If I may continue the subject, there is a lot of speculation, that His Holiness, Patriarch Bartholomew, is bent on reunion with Rome, whether or not the other patriarchates are in agreement. (In many of the local parishes, here, that is a topic of discussion.)
And that is what it is, pure speculation.
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« Reply #204 on: February 04, 2009, 09:19:58 PM »

But I think that Mark of Ephesus realizes that now so let's move on.

And after we found all these great stones, too...  Tongue
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« Reply #205 on: February 04, 2009, 09:21:11 PM »

Gentleman:

I have apologized the best way I know how, I am asking for your forgiveness, if I have insulted you. I enjoy debate and discussion with my Orthodox Brothers.  And that was my only intention.

Granted.  Just be careful in the future (since I'm presuming you'll remain here on the forum in the future) about how you begin debate, and how you word your opinions and criticisms.

Like Ecumenical Patriarch would bother to even give me the time of day. He is too busy making friends with Benedict...[/b]

Actually, he would, if you visited and he's there.  I, in all my fat, balding, uninteresting glory had a one-on-one conversation with him for about 15 minutes once.  I wish that I had the foreknowledge that said conversation was going to occur - then I would have made better use of the time.



If I may continue the subject, there is a lot of speculation, that His Holiness, Patriarch Bartholomew, is bent on reunion with Rome, whether or not the other patriarchates are in agreement. (In many of the local parishes, here, that is a topic of discussion.)

Please have a look at my thread on St. Mark of Ephesus.  Read some of the links found therein.  The one speaks of true ecumenism.
here's my thread:  http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,19504.msg288299.html#msg288299
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« Reply #206 on: February 04, 2009, 09:21:21 PM »

Can someone sensible please explain to me what "EC" stands for?





Excuuuuuuse Me!   I meant "EP" as in Ecumenical Patriarch. 

How do you expect people to react?  You sign up to the forum and walk into a thread that was dormant for a long time and start accusations and being erroneous and crass.  It's like walking into a room of strangers and starting some wild conversation with wild accusations and expecting people to take you seriously, it just doesn't happen.


Let's get a few things straight:

1. It doesn't matter whether I "just signed up" or not. I am an Orthodox Christian.
2. I am not making wild accusations. My Priest, who is knowledgeable, told me that some time ago.
3. You should act just a little more like a Christian, instead of the way you are acting now.

Take it or leave it.  God Be With You.

Well, to be in communion with someone means you accept all the bishops of the canonical Orthodox Church.  I'm sorry you have separated yourself from the chalice through openly rejecting a bishop of the Eastern Orthodox Church.  It does matter whether you just signed up, it doesn't go far for your credibility the way you walked in and are acting like a juvenile.


OK. I accept the Ecumenical Patriarch, I just don't agree with some of his actions.
As for being juvenile, hacking my profile and changing my avatar without my permission is beyond that.

You're right! It is juvenile!
Welcome to the forum Mark!
We're actually a pretty good bunch here. Yes we argue with each other about different matters, but we try to respect each other, and we certainly don't insult one another's heirarchs, even if we are not in Communion with them.
BTW, would you like this as an avatar?



I thought the caption: "I DON'T THINK WE'RE IN KANSAS ANY MORE TOTO" might be good. What do you think?



I think I would rather keep mine. Besides, the last I saw, the Moscow Patriarchate is in communion with everybody canonical. Smiley


That doesn't mean a person is in communion with the church, especially if he has openly denounced a bishop he is supposed to be in communion with.  The church is one, if you can't accept it then you're not a part of it, confession and repentance are the way back home.  Correcting the errors one has made that has placed him away from the chalice.  The Eucharist unites us all, if a person can't accept what the church teaches and those in the church as his brethren (judging a man, ie, a bishop would mean not accepting that person as his brother) then one has separated himself from the church.  Sorry it's Orthodoxy 101.  


OK, lets get this straight....You are telling me that it is not ok to criticize a Hierarch of the Church?  I think you are mistaken.  I can respect his office and not respect everything he does.



Was it not our Lord who said not to judge, gossip and spread rumours?  It isn't I who have made up these commandments.


If I hear it from my Priest, it isn't a rumor. I consider it a fact.

Still, judging is something only the Lord can do.  It isn't up to me and you.  That's Christianity 101.  Regardless of who told you this basic Christian principles should tell you that judging a fellow brother in Christ, especially a Bishop, breaks these basic Christian principles.
Welcome to the forum!


Well, his Holiness is a big topic of discussion in my Parish. But I will try to watch my "phraesology", and the way I word things.
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« Reply #207 on: February 04, 2009, 09:27:05 PM »

If I may continue the subject, there is a lot of speculation, that His Holiness, Patriarch Bartholomew, is bent on reunion with Rome, whether or not the other patriarchates are in agreement. (In many of the local parishes, here, that is a topic of discussion.)
And that is what it is, pure speculation.



If I may be so bold, how do you know for sure?
In my opinion, His Holiness seems very eager for reunion. I for one am not in favor unless Rome rejects the dogmas it has added to the faith since 1054.
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« Reply #208 on: February 04, 2009, 09:28:30 PM »

If I may continue the subject, there is a lot of speculation, that His Holiness, Patriarch Bartholomew, is bent on reunion with Rome, whether or not the other patriarchates are in agreement. (In many of the local parishes, here, that is a topic of discussion.)
And that is what it is, pure speculation.



If I may be so bold, how do you know for sure?
In my opinion, His Holiness seems very eager for reunion. I for one am not in favor unless Rome rejects the dogmas it has added to the faith since 1054.

As a new user, you may not be aware of the many threads that have discussed this topic on the forum.  Have a look at some of the archives, and you will get a better feel for some of the participants here and why they hold the views they do.
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« Reply #209 on: February 04, 2009, 09:30:07 PM »

^What Fr. Anastasios said.
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« Reply #210 on: February 04, 2009, 09:33:36 PM »

If I may continue the subject, there is a lot of speculation, that His Holiness, Patriarch Bartholomew, is bent on reunion with Rome, whether or not the other patriarchates are in agreement. (In many of the local parishes, here, that is a topic of discussion.)
And that is what it is, pure speculation.



If I may be so bold, how do you know for sure?
In my opinion, His Holiness seems very eager for reunion. I for one am not in favor unless Rome rejects the dogmas it has added to the faith since 1054.

As a new user, you may not be aware of the many threads that have discussed this topic on the forum.  Have a look at some of the archives, and you will get a better feel for some of the participants here and why they hold the views they do.


Certainly, Fr., Could you suggest some links, in the interest of time?

Thanks!
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« Reply #211 on: February 04, 2009, 09:39:12 PM »

reunion with Rome would solve a whole lot of my own personal struggles... I can't help but pray for it.

Everyone can begin throw stones.... now.  Tongue
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« Reply #212 on: February 04, 2009, 09:42:03 PM »

reunion with Rome would solve a whole lot of my own personal struggles... I can't help but pray for it.

Everyone can begin throw stones.... now.  Tongue

That would have to be the written equivalent of eating a BLT with mayo in a Synagogue. Cheesy
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« Reply #213 on: February 04, 2009, 09:47:56 PM »

If I may continue the subject, there is a lot of speculation, that His Holiness, Patriarch Bartholomew, is bent on reunion with Rome, whether or not the other patriarchates are in agreement. (In many of the local parishes, here, that is a topic of discussion.) 

Context: I know clergy who are involved in Ecumenical dialogues, both from my time at Seminary and the period after graduation, and I know folks who work for the Patriarchate and at the Patriarchate.  Additionally, I am naturally skeptical about these sorts of rumors.

While the rumors on the ground may seem convincing, the statements by those involved in the various dialogues and efforts should also be so: consistently I've been told that union with anyone, from our close OO brothers to the distant Unitarian 90th-cousins-twice-removed, must be preceded by doctrinal union, founded in the decrees and promulgations of the Ecumenical Synods (for most I've spoken to, this number is 8 or 9).
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Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
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« Reply #214 on: February 04, 2009, 09:49:06 PM »