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Author Topic: Patriarch Bartholomew is ready to accept the Pope's primacy  (Read 28359 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: November 27, 2007, 03:23:44 AM »

http://www.interfax-religion.ru/?act=news&div=21629
I don't know if there is any English version of the news anywhere.

The matter of article is that patriarch Bartholomew said that he is ready to accept the Pope's primacy as it was before 1054, and to become the second patriarch in the Christian world, as it also was before 1054. Also he told that the point of the present dialogue with catholics is to clarify the meaning of the term "primacy" and the purview of the Pope's authorities.
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« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2007, 03:46:02 AM »

This is really good news to hear although I see no amazing paradigm  shifts as this should already be normative Orthodox belief.
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« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2007, 04:44:54 AM »

I haven't read the news item, but it's not a real change in the position the Ecumenical Patriarchate has enunciated since the 1960's, during the patriarchy of Athenagoras, of thrice blessed memory.  The EP has since that time addressed the Roman Pope as "Elder Brother."    The Pope's primacy is recognized consistant with the "First Among Equals" ecclesiology, as is understood by the Orthodox.  At the Ecumenical Doxology held at The Phanar one year ago, Pope Benedict was commemorated, first, before Patriarch Bartholomew, at the petition for the presiding hierarch, "Again we pray for our..."

Patriarch Bartholomew would also have to know that most of the Orthodox Church, including those under his immediate jurisdiction, would not follow him into communion with Roman Catholicism.  This is, I believe, ecumenical rhetoric; demonstrating his sincerity toward the dialogue/reapproachment process.-BWT
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« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2007, 11:41:53 AM »

Well, well...Of course the bishop of Rome, the patriarch of all the west will be the first among the equals - when the unity of the Roman & the eastern churches at one beautifull day is reality.
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« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2007, 12:10:59 PM »

I know that I would accept the Pope's primacy in a reunion. So long as everything went back to the way it  used to be.
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« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2007, 09:29:24 PM »

Well, well...Of course the bishop of Rome, the patriarch of all the west will be the first among the equals - when the unity of the Roman & the eastern churches at one beautifull day is reality.

Well, he can't now.  He's says he's NOT the patriarch of all the west.
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« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2007, 10:28:14 PM »

I also would accept the Pope of Rome as the first among equals, if he does away with the heresies the Roman Church has fallen into.
John Paul II made great strides in reforming the Roman Liturgy, he restored the Little and Great entrances, and added an epiclecus during the Roman Anaphora.
I also feel they need to restore Leavened Bread.
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« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2007, 10:50:44 PM »

The article quoted the Patriarch as saying the following (roughly):

"We, orthodox, are convinced that in the first millennium of the existence of the church, in the times of the undivided church, the superiority of the bishop of Rome, the Pope, was acknowledged. However, this superiority this was honorary, in the form of love, without being juridical supremacy which  must be by entire Christian church "

this is the standard Orthodox position and is nothing really new.
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« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2007, 11:16:32 PM »

John Paul II made great strides in reforming the Roman Liturgy, he restored the Little and Great entrances, and added an epiclecus during the Roman Anaphora.

Did he? I wasn't aware that he made changes to the Mass.
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« Reply #9 on: November 28, 2007, 12:52:57 AM »

actually the Mass was cut up and made very vague and lots of petitions to the Mother of God and saints were eliminated...Benedict sees the need for a stronger, traditional, and more unified liturgy within the RC church.
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« Reply #10 on: November 28, 2007, 01:39:09 AM »

I haven't read the news item, but it's not a real change in the position the Ecumenical Patriarchate has enunciated since the 1960's, during the patriarchy of Athenagoras, of thrice blessed memory.  The EP has since that time addressed the Roman Pope as "Elder Brother."    The Pope's primacy is recognized consistant with the "First Among Equals" ecclesiology, as is understood by the Orthodox.  At the Ecumenical Doxology held at The Phanar one year ago, Pope Benedict was commemorated, first, before Patriarch Bartholomew, at the petition for the presiding hierarch, "Again we pray for our..."

Yes, that was remarkable. I also thought it was amazing when Pope Benedict alone recited the Pater Noster in Greek during the Divine Liturgy. And the mutual blessing, first Bartholomew in Greek and Benedict in Latin.

I believe the Lord was well pleased by those glorious several days.  
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« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2007, 02:15:59 AM »

Well, he can't now.  He's says he's NOT the patriarch of all the west.

He still is, whatever the "West" means anymore, the Latin Church being in every corner of the globe. The Vatican only dropped it from the annual yearbook because they say it is no longer "useful" as a title. Not sure if it was a good idea, but it's just a title, and it didn't make it into the yearbook until 1863 anyway. The reality---that the Bishop of Rome is patriarch of the Latin Church---still exists.
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« Reply #12 on: November 28, 2007, 02:31:13 AM »

actually the Mass was cut up and made very vague and lots of petitions to the Mother of God and saints were eliminated...Benedict sees the need for a stronger, traditional, and more unified liturgy within the RC church.

The explicit epicleses were added to the three new Eucharistic Prayers by Pope Paul VI's Apostolic Constitution Missale Romanum in 1969, establishing the Novus Ordo. Not that an explicit one is needed, of course. The original Roman Canon, or Eucharistic Prayer 1, has an implied one.

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« Reply #13 on: November 28, 2007, 02:32:33 AM »

Did he? I wasn't aware that he made changes to the Mass.

Only minor changes in the 2002 revision of the Missale Romanum.
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« Reply #14 on: November 28, 2007, 03:05:08 AM »

Pater Noster

Things are getting goofier back on the other side of the Tiber... is saying the "Lord's Prayer" or even "the Our Father" no longer in vogue? 

El Papa might get a bit more Eastern love when he returns all the gold and treasures taken during the fourth crusade.  Since he excommunicated us, it was OK to steal from us since we were no longer Christians.  But since the excommunications were rescinded, it's time to return to all the booty.

This is a never ending circle.  The Orthodox were more than happy to steal Greek Catholic parishes in Transylvania and Western Ukraine.  And I guess since talking about Jews as Christ-killers isn't the norm anymore it is time to make reparations for those pogroms... or we could all grow up and stop living in the past.  Perhaps God is the God of the living and not the dead.
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« Reply #15 on: November 28, 2007, 03:30:29 AM »

Things are getting goofier back on the other side of the Tiber... is saying the "Lord's Prayer" or even "the Our Father" no longer in vogue? 

 Smiley

Whenever I hear Pope Benedict say it, he says it in Latin (with the exception at the Phanar last year). I pray it about 95% of the time in Latin.

I've seen all three names used pretty interchangeably, though Pater Noster seems to me to be the best "Catholic" title for it, as most of our traditional prayers, hymns and liturgical bits are named by their first lines in Latin (Te Deum, Gloria in Excelsis, Asperges, Sanctus/Benedictus, De Profundis, Stabat Mater, Anima Christi, Veni Sancte Spritus, Tantum Ergo, Angelus, Ubi Caritas, Adeste Fideles, Adoro Te Devote, Panis Angelicus, O Salutaris Hostia, Tu Es Petrus, Salve Regina, etc. etc. etc.
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« Reply #16 on: November 28, 2007, 04:40:26 AM »

Whenever I hear Pope Benedict say it, he says it in Latin (with the exception at the Phanar last year). I pray it about 95% of the time in Latin.

I've seen all three names used pretty interchangeably, though Pater Noster seems to me to be the best "Catholic" title for it, as most of our traditional prayers, hymns and liturgical bits are named by their first lines in Latin

OK. Then I will use "Отче наш" in this forum every time when I want to mention the Lord's Prayer. Because I never prayed it in English or in Latin. As well as Символ Веры, Богородица Дева радуйся, Царю Небесный Утешителю, etc.
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« Reply #17 on: November 28, 2007, 10:58:34 AM »

I know that I would accept the Pope's primacy in a reunion. So long as everything went back to the way it  used to be.

Well we certainly know that it wont go back to the way is was way back when.  For one the Roman Catholics will insist on keeping their dogmas of the Immaculate Conception, Filioque, Purgatory, their version of Original sin etc etc etc.  How can anyone be talking union when we are at odds with these dogmas, and we know that the Eastern Catholics forfeited their beliefs and are obliged to believe Rome's innovations in faith.  So, is Rome going to be satisfied with a union where she believes one way and the eastern half believes another?Huh??    I don't think so.

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« Reply #18 on: November 28, 2007, 03:42:01 PM »

If one really wants to heal a rift, let's first try and re-unite with our Oriental Orthodox brothers.  We have much more common ground, less differences in theology or erroneous doctrine, and no offense meant, but the thought of reunification with OO Christianity doesn't scare me silly like it does with the RC church. 

Does anyone remember that scene in the movie It's a Wonderful Life when George Bailey shakes hands with Mr. Potter in the bank after briefly accepting a job, then turns it down when he realizes he was just about to sell his soul?   Unless Rome makes some huge changes and concessions, it's going to be us Orthodox who are going to be wiping our hands off.  We'll be swallowed up whole and come out on the other end sanitized, stripped down liturgically and doctrinally, and about as significant in our witness to the fullness of faith as something that had just been deposited from the back end of a beast.
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« Reply #19 on: November 28, 2007, 03:47:19 PM »

OK. Then I will use "Отче наш" in this forum every time when I want to mention the Lord's Prayer. Because I never prayed it in English or in Latin. As well as Символ Веры, Богородица Дева радуйся, Царю Небесный Утешителю, etc.

I was just explaining why I called it Pater Noster. It wasn't a conscious decision. I've also called it by the other two names.
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« Reply #20 on: November 28, 2007, 03:49:41 PM »

Tell it, TinaG!
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« Reply #21 on: November 28, 2007, 04:07:07 PM »

Sheesh...can't we just forget about the Fourth Crusade? Is Christ really going to come down, look at the Catholics and say, "AHA! You still have horses outside of St. Marks Basilica! Well, I guess I know where to put you know."

Okay, folks - Simayan's above comment is in reference to the discussion about the 4th Crusade, which now has it's own thread:

What to do with the booty (and memory) of the 4th Crusade?
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13596.0.html

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As for the OO...don't even get me started. If all sides could calmly sit down and have a civil discussion about it, I'm positive the rift could be healed. Moreover, our Bishop has given the priest at our church permission to give any and all OOs communion. I think that speaks for itself in how small the difference really is.
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« Reply #22 on: November 28, 2007, 04:08:32 PM »

Sheesh...can't we just forget about the Fourth Crusade? Is Christ really going to come down, look at the Catholics and say, "AHA! You still have horses outside of St. Marks Basilica! Well, I guess I know where to put you know."


As for the OO...don't even get me started. If all sides could calmly sit down and have a civil discussion about it, I'm positive the rift could be healed. Moreover, our Bishop has given the priest at our church permission to give any and all OOs communion. I think that speaks for itself in how small the difference really is.

Well they've been calmly sitting down for 70 years at the WCC and the Faith and Order to chat along with several EO-OO conferences and nothing has happened yet.
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« Reply #23 on: November 28, 2007, 04:20:24 PM »

I've seen all three names used pretty interchangeably, though Pater Noster seems to me to be the best "Catholic" title for it, as most of our traditional prayers, hymns and liturgical bits are named by their first lines in Latin (Te Deum, Gloria in Excelsis, Asperges, Sanctus/Benedictus, De Profundis, Stabat Mater, Anima Christi, Veni Sancte Spritus, Tantum Ergo, Angelus, Ubi Caritas, Adeste Fideles, Adoro Te Devote, Panis Angelicus, O Salutaris Hostia, Tu Es Petrus, Salve Regina, etc. etc. etc.

In normal, daily speech I don't think I have ever heard a Catholic say "Pater Noster."  Especially when posting on an Anglophone Orthodox forum it seems rather out of place...and for the record I know most of the above mentioned hymns by heart in Latin, so I'm hardly a latinophobe.  My impression at least - and I'm probably one of the more philocatholic posters here - is that it shows you are making little attempt to actually understand Orthodoxy from an Orthodox person's perspective.

If one really wants to heal a rift, let's first try and re-unite with our Oriental Orthodox brothers.  We have much more common ground, less differences in theology or erroneous doctrine, and no offense meant, but the thought of reunification with OO Christianity doesn't scare me silly like it does with the RC church. 

Does anyone remember that scene in the movie It's a Wonderful Life when George Bailey shakes hands with Mr. Potter in the bank after briefly accepting a job, then turns it down when he realizes he was just about to sell his soul?   Unless Rome makes some huge changes and concessions, it's going to be us Orthodox who are going to be wiping our hands off.  We'll be swallowed up whole and come out on the other end sanitized, stripped down liturgically and doctrinally, and about as significant in our witness to the fullness of faith as something that had just been deposited from the back end of a beast.


This is absolutely ludicrous to vilify the current Catholic Church as having these diabolical intentions.    Theological disputes aside, it'd be a hard case to make that people like Pope John Paul II were anything but saintly men. 

 

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« Reply #24 on: November 28, 2007, 04:36:19 PM »

Sorry, statute has not expired except to RCs who prefer not to recognize the crusade and the Latin aftermath as the event that made the schism permanent. I only have negative feelings for dismissive RCs on  this issue. But this has been argued before and doesn't belong in this board.

I have never denied this. Ever. 1204 and 1453 are far more important dates than 1054. I have always seen it as a terrible crime and tragedy, ever since I read (as a kid) a time-travel novel called The Trolley to Yesterday by John Bellairs that featured the ghosts of Templar knights assisting the Greeks in Constantinople at the final siege as a penance for what they participated in 250 years earlier. The book itself launched me on the Byzantium craze I had as a teenager (and which has remained).

I believe our recent popes have profusely apologized for it and backed it up by returning the sacred relics. And Innocent III originally excommunicated those responsible. So it's not as if we are like Turkey with Armenia. It's pointless to bring this sad event up as some sort of outstanding grievance. It's long past.
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« Reply #25 on: November 28, 2007, 04:39:56 PM »

Okay, folks - Simayan's above comment is in reference to the discussion about the 4th Crusade, which now has it's own thread:

What to do with the booty (and memory) of the 4th Crusade?
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13596.0.html

- Cleveland, Global Moderator
 
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« Reply #26 on: November 28, 2007, 04:46:48 PM »

In normal, daily speech I don't think I have ever heard a Catholic say "Pater Noster."  Especially when posting on an Anglophone Orthodox forum it seems rather out of place...and for the record I know most of the above mentioned hymns by heart in Latin, so I'm hardly a latinophobe.  My impression at least - and I'm probably one of the more philocatholic posters here - is that it shows you are making little attempt to actually understand Orthodoxy from an Orthodox person's perspective.

Well, I wasn't using normal, daily speech. I'm typing. And I just heard Pope Benedict say "Pater Noster" on Sunday. I didn't mean to confuse anybody and didn't consciously choose it. Hopefully no one was confused---it's pretty well-known in the English-speaking world. In fact, paternoster is an English word that dates from before the 12th century.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pater_Noster_%28disambiguation%29

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/paternoster
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« Reply #27 on: November 28, 2007, 04:47:51 PM »

This is absolutely ludicrous to vilify the current Catholic Church as having these diabolical intentions.    Theological disputes aside, it'd be a hard case to make that people like Pope John Paul II were anything but saintly men. 

Beg to differ,. Somehow being considered a 'defective church' by il popa leads me to think TinaG's absolutely correct.
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« Reply #28 on: November 28, 2007, 04:50:58 PM »

Beg to differ,. Somehow being considered a 'defective church' by il popa leads me to think TinaG's absolutely correct.

And what, pray tell, do you consider us? We're not even a church. A black hole calling the kettle black. . .
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« Reply #29 on: November 28, 2007, 04:51:15 PM »

Beg to differ,. Somehow being considered a 'defective church' by il popa leads me to think TinaG's absolutely correct.

Defective church is certainly a lot more charitable than how the Catholic Church is described in Orthodox circles.  Nothing has quite the ring of "graceless heretic."
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« Reply #30 on: November 28, 2007, 04:59:17 PM »

Defective church is certainly a lot more charitable than how the Catholic Church is described in Orthodox circles.  Nothing has quite the ring of "graceless heretic."

You've not heard that from me, I'm sure. But I'll consider using it, if you'd like so I can fit your mold.
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« Reply #31 on: November 28, 2007, 05:00:51 PM »

And what, pray tell, do you consider us? We're not even a church. A black hole calling the kettle black. . .

Formerly Orthodox.
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« Reply #32 on: November 28, 2007, 05:04:08 PM »

Formerly Orthodox.

In other words, outside the Church period. We aren't even a church, and I am unbaptized in most EO eyes. Our Eucharist is play-acting.

Hmm, any Orientale Lumen, Unitatis Redintegratio or Ut Unum Sint from the EO side?
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« Reply #33 on: November 28, 2007, 05:06:40 PM »

In other words, outside the Church period. We aren't even a church, and I am unbaptized in most EO eyes. Our Eucharist is play-acting.
Don't know...
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« Reply #34 on: November 28, 2007, 05:10:47 PM »

Defective church is certainly a lot more charitable than how the Catholic Church is described in Orthodox circles.  Nothing has quite the ring of "graceless heretic."

Better to be honest, if blunt, than disguise our opinion with disingenous and deceitful descriptions.
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« Reply #35 on: November 28, 2007, 05:11:34 PM »

Don't know...

I rest my case.  Smiley

We know several things. That you are not heretics, are true churches, have true sacraments, and are "sister churches" with us.
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« Reply #36 on: November 28, 2007, 05:13:01 PM »

You've not heard that from me, I'm sure. But I'll consider using it, if you'd like so I can fit your mold.

Sorry to disappoint, but you hardly represent the totality of Orthodox opinion.  While modern Catholic opinion is that Orthodoxy is schismatic (although born-Orthodox aren't themselves guilty of schism), it holds that Orthodoxy is entirely valid communion in terms of sacramental grace.  The same opinion can hardly be said of Orthodoxy towards Catholicism at an official level.   
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« Reply #37 on: November 28, 2007, 05:15:02 PM »

I rest my case.  Smiley

We know several things. That you are not heretics, are true churches, have true sacraments, and are "sister churches" with us.

yep. That's the current line out of the Vatican
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« Reply #38 on: November 28, 2007, 05:17:04 PM »

Better to be honest, if blunt, than disguise our opinion with disingenous and deceitful descriptions.

You are making a very serious accusation.  Who in the Catholic Church is the one making this lie (and can you demonstrate from textual evidence that they do indeed believe something other than what they profess?)?  And for that matter, don't Orthodox participants in ecumenical dialogs do essentially the same thing? 
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« Reply #39 on: November 28, 2007, 05:17:28 PM »

Sorry to disappoint, but you hardly represent the totality of Orthodox opinion.  While modern Catholic opinion is that Orthodoxy is schismatic (although born-Orthodox aren't themselves guilty of schism), it holds that Orthodoxy is entirely valid communion in terms of sacramental grace.  The same opinion can hardly be said of Orthodoxy towards Catholicism at an official level.   


There you go with that "valid" stuff again.
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« Reply #40 on: November 28, 2007, 05:18:58 PM »

There you go with that "valid" stuff again.

It would only make sense to express the beliefs of the Catholic Church in Catholic terminology. 

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« Reply #41 on: November 28, 2007, 05:20:49 PM »

It would only make sense to express the beliefs of the Catholic Church in Catholic terminology. 

Which is only logical, since if they get their way, it's the terminology we'll be forced to think in as we're crushed under Rome's boot heel.
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« Reply #42 on: November 28, 2007, 05:24:19 PM »

Which is only logical, since if they get their way, it's the terminology we'll be forced to think in as we're crushed under Rome's boot heel.

I never thought I'd meet this much resistance in defending Orthodox bishops on an Orthodox forum.  Interesting...

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« Reply #43 on: November 28, 2007, 05:42:44 PM »

I never thought I'd meet this much resistance in defending Orthodox bishops on an Orthodox forum.  Interesting...



Interesting...that you think that is what you are doing.  Roll Eyes
« Last Edit: November 28, 2007, 05:43:28 PM by Αριστοκλής » Logged

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« Reply #44 on: November 28, 2007, 05:46:36 PM »

I'm defending the theological position of the Ecumenical Patriarchate concerning ecumenism.  A quick search of recent documents from the ecumenical movement would show that to be true. 
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