Author Topic: Objections to Some Paraliturgical Devotions  (Read 3053 times)

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Offline Νεκτάριος

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Objections to Some Paraliturgical Devotions
« on: November 26, 2007, 10:03:45 PM »
1) I said Orthodoxy worships Christ, not "has devotions" to Him.

3) I pointed out the First Fridays devotion as evidence to the contrary.

George,

I have spent more of my life as a Roman Catholic than as an Orthodox Christan, and I don't really feel that is an accurate description of actual Catholic practice and thought.  With no disrespect intended (which is indeed rare for me  :angel: ), have you ever lived as a Catholic, with sincere and devout Catholics or tried to understand Catholicism as a Catholic would try to understand it?  The way how your point is being made and some of the accusations about Catholicism are so far fetched to the typical Catholic that it would have caused me, when I was still a Catholic, to entirely disregard what you are saying - which is sad, because as Orthodox Christians we ultimately agree on matters theological (matters political is a different story  :P ).  I don't think Catholics view devotions such as the Divine Mercy any differently than we would view an icon of Christ "Extreme Humility" or the feast of Christ the King any differently than we would view the icon "Pantocrator".  While they are framed in different language, on a day to day level there is very little difference IME.  As for first Friday devotions, they are a way to have people go to confession, mass and communion more often - is that really so different than Orthodoxy? 

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Objections to Some Paraliturgical Devotions
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2007, 10:16:13 PM »
have you ever lived as a Catholic, with sincere and devout Catholics
Yep.
That's thrown you, hasn't it?
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Offline Νεκτάριος

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Re: Objections to Some Paraliturgical Devotions
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2007, 10:18:43 PM »
Yep.
That's thrown you, hasn't it?

Not at all.  I'd be interested then to know how you have come to the conclusion that you have as that has been the exact opposite of my experience. 

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Objections to Some Paraliturgical Devotions
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2007, 10:24:49 PM »
Not at all.  I'd be interested then to know how you have come to the conclusion that you have as that has been the exact opposite of my experience. 
pm me for details or start a new thread entitled "Have You Ever Been Roman Catholic?" (let's not derail this thread)
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Objections to Some Paraliturgical Devotions
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2007, 11:17:42 PM »
Magicsilence,
I think if you read the thread in sequence you will see my point.
1) I said Orthodoxy worships Christ, not "has devotions" to Him.
2) lubeltri said that I was implying that RC's don't worship but have devotions to Christ.
3) I pointed out the First Fridays devotion as evidence to the contrary.

How's an Akathist not a devotion?
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
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Offline Νεκτάριος

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Re: Objections to Some Paraliturgical Devotions
« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2007, 11:45:41 PM »
To summarize:

Various Orthodox icons, their separate feasts, their separate akathists don't really create a different devotional life than RC devotions.  Especially when you consider than in parishes along the Theodosian line, one is often bound to find Sacred Heart and other RC devotionals in Orthodox parishes...

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Objections to Some Paraliturgical Devotions
« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2007, 11:52:17 PM »
Various Orthodox icons, their separate feasts, their separate akathists don't really create a different devotional life than RC devotions.
Which RC devotions specifically?
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Offline Νεκτάριος

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Re: Objections to Some Paraliturgical Devotions
« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2007, 12:02:07 AM »
I don't think I'd go for a one to one correspondence that RC devotion X equals EO icon / akathist Y. 

Is having a specific icon "Ruler of all" that different than a feast day of "Christ the King"?  I'm not going for a technical dissection here, but more of a general impression. 

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Objections to Some Paraliturgical Devotions
« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2007, 12:09:47 AM »
I don't think I'd go for a one to one correspondence that RC devotion X equals EO icon / akathist Y. 
Why not?
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Offline Νεκτάριος

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Re: Objections to Some Paraliturgical Devotions
« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2007, 12:25:10 AM »
I don't think there has to be a one to one link between devotions in different confessions in order for them to still be essentially the same.  This is speaking generally since this is a general thread, rather than about specific RC devotions. 

Also more generally, when our bishops produce documents and such about Catholicism (even some of the stronger 19th century ones) issues such as this are hardly ever mentioned.  This is nitpicking rather than focusing on that which actually divides the two faiths and isn't reconcilable as two expressions of the same thing (i.e infallibility, universal jurisdiction).

Offline stanley123

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Re: Objections to Some Paraliturgical Devotions
« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2007, 01:45:56 AM »
I don't really understand the objection to "paraliturgical" devotions. I guess I don't understand what is meant by paraliturgical. Perhaps it means outside of the Divine Liturgy or for Catholics outside of the Mass. Actually, first Friday devotions wouldn't really fit that definition, since  part of the devotion is to attend Mass. Here is an explanation of the Catholic devotion:
The First Friday of each month was designated by our Savior Himself as a day to be
consecrated to honoring His Sacred Heart…. As the object of this devotion is to make our Savior Jesus Christ ardently and perfectly loved, and to make reparation for the outrages offered to Him in the past, as well as for those which he daily receives in the Blessed Eucharist…Jesus Christ merits our love at all times, but alas! He is despised and outraged in the Sacrament of His love at all times, and so people should at all times make reparation to Him. 
       We should then adore Jesus Christ in this august Sacrament, make a fervent act of love to Jesus in the tabernacle, thank Him for having instituted this Mystery of love, express our sorrow at seeing Him so abandoned, and resolve to visit Him as soon as possible and love Him unceasingly. 
       Attendance at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is assuredly the best means of honoring and loving the adorable Heart of Jesus. 
The following First Friday devotions are efficacious in honoring the Sacred Heart of Jesus: 

1. The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass
2. Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament
3. Act of Consecration to the Sacred Heart of Jesus
4. Act of Reparation 
5. The Litany of the Sacred Heart of Jesus
6. The Sacrament of Reconciliation
http://www.miraclerosarymission.org/shj.htm
Here is the Litany of the Sacred Heart of Jesus:
Litany of the Most Sacred Heart of Jesus
V/ Lord, have mercy.
R/ Lord, have mercy.

V/ Christ, have mercy.
R/ Christ, have mercy.

V/ Lord, have mercy.
R/ Lord, have mercy.

V/ Jesus, hear us.
R/ Jesus, graciously hear us.

R/ for ff: have mercy on us

God, the Father of Heaven,
God, the Son, Redeemer of the world,
God, the Holy Spirit,
Holy Trinity, One God,
Heart of Jesus, Son of the Eternal Father.
Heart of Jesus, formed by the Holy Spirit in the womb of the Virgin Mother,
Heart of Jesus, substantially united to the Word of God,
Heart of Jesus, of Infinite Majesty,
Heart of Jesus, Sacred Temple of God,
Heart of Jesus, Tabernacle of the Most High,
Heart of Jesus, House of God and Gate of Heaven,
Heart of Jesus, burning furnace of charity,
Heart of Jesus, abode of justice and love,
Heart of Jesus, full of goodness and love,
Heart of Jesus, abyss of all virtues,
Heart of Jesus, most worthy of all praise,
Heart of Jesus, king and center of all hearts,
Heart of Jesus, in whom are all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge,
Heart of Jesus, in whom the Father was well pleased,
Heart of Jesus, of whose fullness we have all received,
Heart of Jesus, desire of the everlasting hills,
Heart of Jesus, patient and most merciful,
Heart of Jesus, enriching all who invoke you,
Heart of Jesus, fountain of life and holiness,
Heart of Jesus, propitiation for our sins,
Heart of Jesus, loaded down with opprobrium,
Heart of Jesus, bruised for our offenses,
Heart of Jesus, obedient to death,
Heart of Jesus, pierced with a lance,
Heart of Jesus, source of all consolation,
Heart of Jesus, our life and resurrection,
Heart of Jesus, our peace and reconciliation,
Heart of Jesus, victim for our sins,
Heart of Jesus, salvation of those who trust in you,
Heart of Jesus, hope of those who die in you,
Heart of Jesus, delight of all the Saints,

Lamb of God, who take away the sins of the world.
R/ spare us, O Lord.

Lamb of God, who take away the sins of the world,
R/ graciously hear us, O Lord.

Lamb of God, who take away the sins of the world,
R/ have mercy on us.

Jesus, meek and humble of heart.
R/ Make our hearts like to yours.

Let us pray. Almighty and eternal God, look upon the Heart of your most beloved Son and upon the praises and satisfaction which he offers you in the name of sinners; and to those who implore your mercy, in your great goodness, grant forgiveness in the name of the same Jesus Christ, your Son, who lives and reigns with you forever and ever. 

R/ Amen.





Offline Athanasios

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Re: Objections to Some Paraliturgical Devotions
« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2007, 09:44:42 AM »
I don't really understand the objection to "paraliturgical" devotions. I guess I don't understand what is meant by paraliturgical. Perhaps it means outside of the Divine Liturgy or for Catholics outside of the Mass.

Liturgy is the public, corporate worship of the Church. It includes the Divine Liturgy/Mass, Liturgy of the Hours, the other Sacraments (i.e., Confession, Confirmation, etc.), Benediction, etc.
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Offline Athanasios

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Re: Objections to Some Paraliturgical Devotions
« Reply #12 on: November 27, 2007, 09:48:09 AM »
Hello,

Actually, first Friday devotions wouldn't really fit that definition, since  part of the devotion is to attend Mass.
The requirement is to receive worthily Holy Communion, but the Mass isn't revolved around the devotion (nor need there even be any mention of it at all). The litany nor an act of reparation are recited during Mass (actually not required at all for the devotion).
Through the intercession of Our Lady of Mount Carmel, may Jesus Christ bless you abundantly.

Pray that we may be one, as Christ and His Father are one. (John 17:20ff)

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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Objections to Some Paraliturgical Devotions
« Reply #13 on: November 27, 2007, 08:26:30 PM »
To summarize:

Various Orthodox icons, their separate feasts, their separate akathists don't really create a different devotional life than RC devotions.  Especially when you consider than in parishes along the Theodosian line, one is often bound to find Sacred Heart and other RC devotionals in Orthodox parishes...

LOL.  Only thing is usually the heart has been painted over.  The parish where I was received (mostly former Eastern Catholics, founded by a former Eastern Catholic priest, his fifth such parish) had to prominent banners which now showed Christ and the Holy Theotokos pointing to their chests for no apparent reason.

Edited in accordance with Board policy.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2007, 09:41:11 PM by ozgeorge »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ozgeorge

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MODERATION Re: Objections to Some Paraliturgical Devotions
« Reply #14 on: November 27, 2007, 09:45:41 PM »
LOL.  Only thing is usually the heart has been painted over.  The parish where I was received (mostly former Eastern Catholics, founded by a former Eastern Catholic priest, his fifth such parish) had to prominent banners which now showed Christ and the Holy Theotokos pointing to their chests for no apparent reason.

Edited in accordance with Board policy.

I would like to draw everyone's attention to the following policies of OCnet:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13388.0.html
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13455.msg187933.html#new
The policy is posted clearly in two prominent locations.
George
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: MODERATION Re: Objections to Some Paraliturgical Devotions
« Reply #15 on: November 28, 2007, 08:29:35 AM »
I would like to draw everyone's attention to the following policies of OCnet:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13388.0.html
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13455.msg187933.html#new
The policy is posted clearly in two prominent locations.
George


Sorry for the slip, I don't recall what was the term I used.  Was it the "U" word? (here it might have been, as that's the term I heard constantly there, even by the relatives of the parishoners who who didn't embrace Orthodoxy (they ended up at Fr. Loya's parish).
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth