Author Topic: Is this a reason to revert?  (Read 2436 times)

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Offline Mickey

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Is this a reason to revert?
« on: November 26, 2007, 01:44:25 PM »
An Orthodox Christian from "another forum" is contemplating a return to communion with Rome. This individual quotes this early Church Father as a reason. I would like to know if anyone here has comments regarding this quote:

St. Ephraim the Syrian – Homilies 4:1

“Simon, my follower, I have made you the foundation of the holy Church [Matt 16:18]. I betimes called you Peter, because you will support all its buildings. You are the inspector of those who will build on earth a Church for Me. If they should wish to build what is false, you are the foundation, will condemn them. You are the head of the fountain from which My teaching flows, you are the chief of My disciples. Through you I will give drink to all peoples. Yours is the life-giving sweetness which I dispense. I have chosen you to be, as it were, the first-born in My institution, and so that, as the heir, you may be executor of my treasures. I have given you authority over all my treasures.”

Offline sdcheung

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Re: Is this a reason to revert?
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2007, 01:50:49 PM »
ooh..No, a quote is no reason to revert to "vatican catholicism"

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Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: Is this a reason to revert?
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2007, 01:55:25 PM »
True...date and context. Back when the pope was Orthodox...
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Is this a reason to revert?
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2007, 01:58:11 PM »
An Orthodox Christian from "another forum" is contemplating a return to communion with Rome. This individual quotes this early Church Father as a reason. I would like to know if anyone here has comments regarding this quote:

St. Ephraim the Syrian – Homilies 4:1

“Simon, my follower, I have made you the foundation of the holy Church [Matt 16:18]. I betimes called you Peter, because you will support all its buildings. You are the inspector of those who will build on earth a Church for Me. If they should wish to build what is false, you are the foundation, will condemn them. You are the head of the fountain from which My teaching flows, you are the chief of My disciples. Through you I will give drink to all peoples. Yours is the life-giving sweetness which I dispense. I have chosen you to be, as it were, the first-born in My institution, and so that, as the heir, you may be executor of my treasures. I have given you authority over all my treasures.”


No, on that "other forum" this quote was already dealt.  (why the archives diappeared? ::))

From I remember of the discussion, for one thing for St. Ephraim was in St. Peter's patriarchate: Antioch.  I don't recall the other side offering proof that St. Ephraim had any special regard for the Vatican.  Someone also questioned the authenticity (there is a lot of Greek Ephraim out there, but I personally don't think that relevant).

I take it that she has posted the quotes (after our general responses were removed).  Time to take a look. :police:
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Offline Anastasios

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Re: Is this a reason to revert?
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2007, 02:25:10 PM »
I would like to create a compendium of all the quotes like this and have responses to each one. Could take years to accomplish but might be worth the effort. We could host on OCnet. Anyone interested? It would have to be a serious project with some scholarly review.
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Offline lubeltri

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Re: Is this a reason to revert?
« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2007, 03:24:52 PM »
Hmm . . . the quote jibes beautifully with "Feed my sheep."
« Last Edit: November 26, 2007, 03:27:14 PM by lubeltri »

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Is this a reason to revert?
« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2007, 03:43:39 PM »
Hmm . . . the quote jibes beautifully with "Feed my sheep."

Yes, and that's just what Ignatius IV of Antioch is doing.

Btw, to give context to this, it would be interesting to see whom the Saint recognized as Patriarch of Antioch, under which he was: St. Meletios, Ignatios IV's predecessor, and the one who opened the Second Ecumenical Council although condmened by Rome at the time, or Paulinus whom Rome (and Alexandria) recognized but whose line died out.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Νεκτάριος

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Re: Is this a reason to revert?
« Reply #7 on: November 26, 2007, 06:32:34 PM »
The whole idea is kind of odd since nothing like the modern Papacy existed at the time.  St Ephraim the Syrian predated even the early power grabs by Rome or Constantinople - so you are just as anachronistic to find in his texts a preference between Ford or Chevy.  Regardless, a stylistic rhetorical praise of Rome in various patristic texts is a far cry from the dogmas of Vatican I. 

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Is this a reason to revert?
« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2007, 08:48:35 PM »
I would like to create a compendium of all the quotes like this and have responses to each one. Could take years to accomplish but might be worth the effort. We could host on OCnet. Anyone interested? It would have to be a serious project with some scholarly review.

I'm in. Spent a lot of time on this already.  Be nice to be on a forum where it won't be flushed down the....

In particular, the posts on the filioque thread got real good with sources.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Is this a reason to revert?
« Reply #9 on: November 26, 2007, 08:49:15 PM »
The whole idea is kind of odd since nothing like the modern Papacy existed at the time.  St Ephraim the Syrian predated even the early power grabs by Rome or Constantinople - so you are just as anachronistic to find in his texts a preference between Ford or Chevy.  Regardless, a stylistic rhetorical praise of Rome in various patristic texts is a far cry from the dogmas of Vatican I. 

And itn this quote, not even a reference to Rome.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Magicsilence

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Re: Is this a reason to revert?
« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2007, 06:53:04 AM »
The whole idea is kind of odd since nothing like the modern Papacy existed at the time.  St Ephraim the Syrian predated even the early power grabs by Rome or Constantinople - so you are just as anachronistic to find in his texts a preference between Ford or Chevy.  Regardless, a stylistic rhetorical praise of Rome in various patristic texts is a far cry from the dogmas of Vatican I. 

It would be interesting to apply this logic to those fathers who praise the Ecumenical Councils, Tradition, or the general authority of the Church.

Why do you assume that you can see the intent of the ECF's behind static words?

In Jesus Christ,

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Is this a reason to revert?
« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2007, 07:53:04 AM »
It would be interesting to apply this logic to those fathers who praise the Ecumenical Councils, Tradition, or the general authority of the Church.

Why do you assume that you can see the intent of the ECF's behind static words?

In Jesus Christ,

We can look at their actions, case of St. Cyprian and St. Firmilian being one in point.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline BasilCan

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Re: Is this a reason to revert?
« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2007, 11:11:15 PM »
I'd like to ask why one wouldn't revert....

Here is a "hypothetical situation." A young man converts from RC church to Orthodoxy in College. Things are great - he's involved in the OCF, attends a great "convert" parish and ventures to local "ethnic parishes" He reads and goes to as many retreats, conferences, monasteries as he can.... Several years later, he is in a midsized city with two or three "dying" ethnic parishes, he's engaged to a nice Catholic girl (not much of a church goer) who "doesn't get" going to these strange dead parishes. She asks about the practicality of being an Orthodox family in such a situation. She reminds him that their city has a Byzantine Catholic parish they could attend (all, or most of the pomp and circumstance and they still get a discount to go to the local Catholic school). They also have several Catholic parishes. They could even use him as a lay assistant. The local Byzantine and "Latin" catholic priest will accept him "as is" without any special prayers, chrismation or courses. He hesitates, but it makes sense to him.....

So, my question is this, how many of us find ourselves in such a situation? And, when we do, does it not make sense to revert to the RC church?

Basil

Offline Peter J

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Re: Is this a reason to revert?
« Reply #13 on: December 06, 2007, 11:39:02 PM »
I'd like to ask why one wouldn't revert....

Here is a "hypothetical situation." A young man converts from RC church to Orthodoxy in College. Things are great - he's involved in the OCF, attends a great "convert" parish and ventures to local "ethnic parishes" He reads and goes to as many retreats, conferences, monasteries as he can.... Several years later, he is in a midsized city with two or three "dying" ethnic parishes, he's engaged to a nice Catholic girl (not much of a church goer) who "doesn't get" going to these strange dead parishes. She asks about the practicality of being an Orthodox family in such a situation. She reminds him that their city has a Byzantine Catholic parish they could attend (all, or most of the pomp and circumstance and they still get a discount to go to the local Catholic school). They also have several Catholic parishes. They could even use him as a lay assistant. The local Byzantine and "Latin" catholic priest will accept him "as is" without any special prayers, chrismation or courses. He hesitates, but it makes sense to him.....

So, my question is this, how many of us find ourselves in such a situation? And, when we do, does it not make sense to revert to the RC church?

Basil

Basil,

As someone with a decent knowledge of the Union of Brest and the history of uniatism in general, I can only say "deja vu."

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Offline Paradosis

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Re: Is this a reason to revert?
« Reply #14 on: December 06, 2007, 11:45:57 PM »
So, my question is this, how many of us find ourselves in such a situation? And, when we do, does it not make sense to revert to the RC church?

We must make our life choices based on the true Faith, not pragmatism.  If we believe that Holy Orthodoxy is the one, true Church, we must remain faithful to her even when this may cause personal sacrifice to us.  I've found in my own life that when we make the choice to remain faithful to the truth, that God always blesses us more abundantly than we ever dream.  God rewards obedience.  We should also remember that the love of Orthodoxy is the love of repentance, and is thus a crucified love, so we should expect and bear patiently the hardships of our Orthodox life.

God bless,

Adam    

Offline Anastasios

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Re: Is this a reason to revert?
« Reply #15 on: December 06, 2007, 11:50:11 PM »
I'd like to ask why one wouldn't revert....

Here is a "hypothetical situation." A young man converts from RC church to Orthodoxy in College. Things are great - he's involved in the OCF, attends a great "convert" parish and ventures to local "ethnic parishes" He reads and goes to as many retreats, conferences, monasteries as he can.... Several years later, he is in a midsized city with two or three "dying" ethnic parishes, he's engaged to a nice Catholic girl (not much of a church goer) who "doesn't get" going to these strange dead parishes. She asks about the practicality of being an Orthodox family in such a situation. She reminds him that their city has a Byzantine Catholic parish they could attend (all, or most of the pomp and circumstance and they still get a discount to go to the local Catholic school). They also have several Catholic parishes. They could even use him as a lay assistant. The local Byzantine and "Latin" catholic priest will accept him "as is" without any special prayers, chrismation or courses. He hesitates, but it makes sense to him.....

So, my question is this, how many of us find ourselves in such a situation? And, when we do, does it not make sense to revert to the RC church?

Basil

I spend thousands of dollars a year to attend an Old Calendarist Orthodox Church and at the same time set up a mission in my town. Not everyone can afford to do this, but I would submit that we can all make a stand for the truth.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2007, 11:56:52 PM by Anastasios »
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Offline Peter J

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Re: Is this a reason to revert?
« Reply #16 on: December 07, 2007, 12:40:32 AM »
We must make our life choices based on the true Faith, not pragmatism.

Quite right.
- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)

Offline Punch

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Re: Is this a reason to revert?
« Reply #17 on: December 07, 2007, 05:10:05 PM »
We must make our life choices based on the true Faith, not pragmatism.  If we believe that Holy Orthodoxy is the one, true Church, we must remain faithful to her even when this may cause personal sacrifice to us.  I've found in my own life that when we make the choice to remain faithful to the truth, that God always blesses us more abundantly than we ever dream.  God rewards obedience.  We should also remember that the love of Orthodoxy is the love of repentance, and is thus a crucified love, so we should expect and bear patiently the hardships of our Orthodox life.

God bless,

Adam    

Amen.
I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

Offline BasilCan

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Re: Is this a reason to revert?
« Reply #18 on: December 07, 2007, 09:18:53 PM »
I hear what you say about pragmatism, but the truth is that, given this situation, I believe that either the person would revert to Catholicism or stop going to church altogether. This happens all the time with protestant converts. Once they leave their parish, and they find themselves as outsiders, they stop going to church and then back to a protestant church.

Basil