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« on: November 23, 2007, 11:15:54 PM »

Hello,

Does anyone have a resource for the notation (modern Western notation?) and text (English transliteration?) for the Christmas chant S'nami Boh?

Also the same for the English version - God is with us?
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« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2007, 01:25:54 AM »

In which tradition?  the ACROD/Carpatho-Russian version is absolutely stunning.  Easy to sing as well, congregational singing, not choir singing.  Let me see if I can find the resource. 
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« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2007, 01:39:23 AM »

Also, which language(s) do you want a transliteration for?
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« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2007, 01:46:58 AM »

The one I probably can get is English and also has the latinica Slavonic (slavonic written in the slovak alphabet). 
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« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2007, 04:18:36 PM »

Hello,

The two that I had my eyes one are these:

In the slavic language (Slavonic?), there is one at this site:
http://www.patronagechurch.com/chant/S'%20Nami%20Boh.htm

However, the words (transliteration) don't seem to match what is being chanted.


In English, there is a version on this CD (I believe it is the right one):
http://www.svspress.com/product_info.php?products_id=1738
#3 God is with Us (Znamenny chant)
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« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2007, 04:19:26 PM »

Hello,

In which tradition?  the ACROD/Carpatho-Russian version is absolutely stunning.  Easy to sing as well, congregational singing, not choir singing.  Let me see if I can find the resource. 
Is it the same one as on the link I provided above?
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« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2007, 04:51:03 PM »

I think the difference between the transliteration of the Slavonic and the chant (linked from the top of the page) is that the chant is actually in the Slovak language.  While Slovak and Slavonic are indeed closely related, they're not the same.  I believe Deacon Tony put the chant link there to showcase the melody.
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« Reply #7 on: November 26, 2007, 05:34:29 PM »

whoops
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« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2007, 06:00:55 PM »

I think the difference between the transliteration of the Slavonic and the chant (linked from the top of the page) is that the chant is actually in the Slovak language.  While Slovak and Slavonic are indeed closely related, they're not the same.  I believe Deacon Tony put the chant link there to showcase the melody.

huh?  The patronage church link is Carpatho chant, prostopinije.  It's fine.  The ACROD has a booklet that is  awesome for S'nami Boh. 

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« Reply #9 on: November 26, 2007, 09:48:01 PM »

Hello,

Concrete things from the patronage church website:

Instead of Razumejte it sounds like shu-day-something.

At the end instead of Jako s’ nami Boh, it sounds like lay-bo snami bo.



I don't understand the Cyrillic alphabet, so I really don't know what the non-transliterated text is saying. Embarrassed
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« Reply #10 on: November 26, 2007, 10:07:10 PM »

I know the Ukrainian text:

"Z namy Boh, rozumijte, narody, rozumijte, narody,
I poklonyajtesya, bo z namy Boh."

The English translation:

"God is with us, understand, peoples, understand, peoples,
And worship, for God is with us."

That's all... simple. Smiley
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« Reply #11 on: November 26, 2007, 10:13:51 PM »

This is interesting after looking at the first set of links.  Do the Carpathorusyns use some more modern form of their language than Church Slavonic as their liturgical language?  If so is this common in both Orthodox and Greek Catholic communities? 

This translation of "S’nami Boh, Razumejte jazyci" is curious to me as the Greek has the word ethnoi and its translation as jazyci rather than narody seems different.
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« Reply #12 on: November 26, 2007, 11:38:50 PM »

Hello,

Concrete things from the patronage church website:

Instead of Razumejte it sounds like shu-day-something.

At the end instead of Jako s’ nami Boh, it sounds like lay-bo snami bo.

I don't understand the Cyrillic alphabet, so I really don't know what the non-transliterated text is saying. Embarrassed
The sheet music and the transliteration is in Church Slavonic. The MP3 at the top of that page is in Slovak. So, same words but different language.
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« Reply #13 on: November 26, 2007, 11:46:10 PM »

Here are the Slovak words you are hearing:

S nami Boh, čujte, všetky národy a kajajte sa, lebo s nami Boh!
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« Reply #14 on: November 27, 2007, 01:31:08 AM »

I know the Ukrainian text:

"Z namy Boh, rozumijte, narody, rozumijte, narody,
I poklonyajtesya, bo z namy Boh."

The English translation:

"God is with us, understand, peoples, understand, peoples,
And worship, for God is with us."

That's all... simple. Smiley
I believe this is actually a Compline prayer from the Prophecy of Isaiah that is used throughout all the year, not just during the seasons of Advent and the Nativity.
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« Reply #15 on: November 27, 2007, 09:49:51 AM »

Hello,

Here are the Slovak words you are hearing:

S nami Boh, čujte, všetky národy a kajajte sa, lebo s nami Boh!
Ah, thanks! Smiley
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« Reply #16 on: November 27, 2007, 09:50:24 AM »

Hello,

The sheet music and the transliteration is in Church Slavonic. The MP3 at the top of that page is in Slovak. So, same words but different language.

Which language would this be most commonly done in?
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« Reply #17 on: November 27, 2007, 03:15:30 PM »

I believe this is actually a Compline prayer from the Prophecy of Isaiah that is used throughout all the year, not just during the seasons of Advent and the Nativity.
To be more precise "God is with us" is part of the Great Compline service. Great Compline is only called to be celebrated on Monday - Thursday during Lent and as part of the Vigil when the Vespers Liturgy of St. Basil is called for (Christmas and Theophany but not Pascha since the vigil service is replaced by the Rush service). There are a couple of others days that Great Compline is prescribed for but I can't remember which days they are.

 
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« Reply #18 on: November 27, 2007, 10:29:20 PM »

I know the Ukrainian text:

"Z namy Boh, rozumijte, narody, rozumijte, narody,
I poklonyajtesya, bo z namy Boh."

The English translation:

"God is with us, understand, peoples, understand, peoples,
And worship, for God is with us."

That's all... simple. Smiley


You forgot kneel for God is with us ....... poklonyajtesya   =    poklonajtese=kneel  stashko
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« Reply #19 on: November 28, 2007, 05:16:04 AM »

This translation of "S’nami Boh, Razumejte jazyci" is curious to me as the Greek has the word ethnoi and its translation as jazyci rather than narody seems different.

The Church Slavonic "языци" is completely equal to the modern "народы".
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« Reply #20 on: November 28, 2007, 01:18:50 PM »


You forgot kneel for God is with us ....... poklonyajtesya   =    poklonajtese=kneel  stashko

Stashku, brate, "poklonyatysya" in Ukrainian means "to worship" or "to bow." The verb for "kneel" in Ukrainian is "klyachyty." (In Russian, it's "preklonyat' koleni.")
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« Reply #21 on: November 28, 2007, 01:20:08 PM »

The Church Slavonic "языци" is completely equal to the modern "народы".

Exactly, that's where the nouns "jazychnik" and "jazychestvo" come from. Smiley In Greek, I believe, it's "ethnoi."
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« Reply #22 on: November 28, 2007, 01:23:01 PM »

I believe this is actually a Compline prayer from the Prophecy of Isaiah that is used throughout all the year, not just during the seasons of Advent and the Nativity.

You may be right, but I always hear a Ukrainian choir singing it specifically in Nativity concerts, musical albums, CDs, etc. Usually either this song, or "Boh Predvichnyj Narodyvsya" (The Everlasting God is Born) opens such concert or album.
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« Reply #23 on: November 28, 2007, 01:33:21 PM »

Stashku, brate, "poklonyatysya" in Ukrainian means "to worship" or "to bow." The verb for "kneel" in Ukrainian is "klyachyty." (In Russian, it's "preklonyat' koleni.")

Brother;

Your are right 100% to bow,, klechi or kleknimo  is to kneel  in sebski jezik ,,im learning.. by studying ukrainian ... Brat stashko
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« Reply #24 on: November 28, 2007, 01:52:44 PM »

huh?  The patronage church link is Carpatho chant, prostopinije.  It's fine.  The ACROD has a booklet that is  awesome for S'nami Boh. 



the mp3 linked is in the slovak language but using prostopinije melodies.

the printed music on the page is in slavonic using the same melodies.
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« Reply #25 on: November 28, 2007, 05:38:54 PM »

The Church Slavonic "языци" is completely equal to the modern "народы".

How does someone learn Church Slavonic these days?  The most I can find are grammars, but nothing like a course book.  Even the grammars that I know of are more focused on historical linguistics rather than reading a church text for understanding. 
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« Reply #26 on: November 28, 2007, 05:55:14 PM »

How does someone learn Church Slavonic these days?  The most I can find are grammars, but nothing like a course book.  Even the grammars that I know of are more focused on historical linguistics rather than reading a church text for understanding. 

My daughter took Old Church Slavonic last year at Harvard, I'll forward your question to her.
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« Reply #27 on: November 29, 2007, 05:22:44 AM »

How does someone learn Church Slavonic these days?  The most I can find are grammars, but nothing like a course book.  Even the grammars that I know of are more focused on historical linguistics rather than reading a church text for understanding. 

I never learned it, but our liturgy and all other actions, and all the prayers are in Church Slavonic. So I can't speak it (except for prayers and phrases I know by heart) but in generall I understand it. I suppose many catholics have similar situation with Latin.
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« Reply #28 on: November 29, 2007, 04:41:22 PM »

I never learned it, but our liturgy and all other actions, and all the prayers are in Church Slavonic. So I can't speak it (except for prayers and phrases I know by heart) but in generall I understand it. I suppose many catholics have similar situation with Latin.

If I sit and read a text, I can usually figure out the general meaning.  Of course I need a dictionary and a bit of extra help.  But when I was in Church in Russia, it was very difficult for me to understand anything.  At least for anglophone Catholics, Latin has to be learned like a second language.  I took Latin in high school, and we had books that aren't unlike the ones I've been using to learn Russian.  The problem I'm having is that Church Slavonic books are more about "what date did the letter yat change to this sound in this modern Slavic language" or "is this word order a natural Slavic one or an imitation of a Greek liturgical text."  All fascinating subjects, but not much help to understanding Slavonic in church. 

My daughter took Old Church Slavonic last year at Harvard, I'll forward your question to her.

Thanks!
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« Reply #29 on: November 29, 2007, 09:52:37 PM »

Nektarios, here are the two links that my daughter sent me on my request about the Slavonic teaching aids they used:

http://www.amazon.com/Church-Slavonic-Grammar-Horace-Lunt/dp/3110162849/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1196386334&sr=1-1

http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/eieol/ocsol-0-X.html

The first one is a book they used as a principal textbook, and Maryana (my daughter) says it's pretty technical and difficult. The second is an online resource; she says it's good for people who just want to obtain some knowledge in Old Church Slavonic, without much technical-linguistic load.
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« Reply #30 on: November 29, 2007, 11:57:01 PM »

Hello,

No one has answered my last question, yet - it was probably overlooked between all the more useful information provided - and thank you all for it.

What language is this hymn usually chanted in?
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« Reply #31 on: November 30, 2007, 12:53:49 AM »


What language is this hymn usually chanted in?
Well I live in the USA so English.
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« Reply #32 on: November 30, 2007, 10:38:18 AM »

Hello,

No one has answered my last question, yet - it was probably overlooked between all the more useful information provided - and thank you all for it.

What language is this hymn usually chanted in?

In the Ukrainian Orthodox Church (USA) - always in modern vernacular Ukrainian.
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« Reply #33 on: November 30, 2007, 02:13:14 PM »

Nektarios, here are the two links that my daughter sent me on my request about the Slavonic teaching aids they used:

http://www.amazon.com/Church-Slavonic-Grammar-Horace-Lunt/dp/3110162849/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1196386334&sr=1-1

http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/eieol/ocsol-0-X.html

The first one is a book they used as a principal textbook, and Maryana (my daughter) says it's pretty technical and difficult. The second is an online resource; she says it's good for people who just want to obtain some knowledge in Old Church Slavonic, without much technical-linguistic load.

Thanks!  The Lunt book is indeed a bit technical.  At least this will give me something to work on over the Christmas break.  I think that officially classifies me as a nerd  Grin
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« Reply #34 on: December 01, 2007, 08:44:45 PM »

Hello,

No one has answered my last question, yet - it was probably overlooked between all the more useful information provided - and thank you all for it.

What language is this hymn usually chanted in?

In my experience, Slavonic and English. 
Yes, Slovakian, I just listened to the midi! 
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« Reply #35 on: December 17, 2007, 12:01:13 PM »

If anyone is still interested, I found a mp3 of S'nami Boh in Slavonic.  It's taken from a set of records made in the early 1970s to accompany the Papp Irmologion.
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« Reply #36 on: December 17, 2007, 12:15:14 PM »

Thanks, Schultz! Smiley

He chants "pokoryajtesya" (obey), while I believe Ukrainians sing "poklonyajtesya" (bow, or worship), but that's close, anyway.

Ahhhh, that Western accent...Smiley People who do not routinely speak Slavic languages just cannot pronounce this "sya" syllable properly! There is NO "i" sound in it, not even the shortest "i." The vowel conveyed by these two Latin letters, "y" and "a," in Slavic languages is ONE sound, neither the "y" ('i"), nor the "a," but "ya." (In the Cyrillic alphabeth, of course, there is an appropriate letter, which looks like the Latin R reflected in the mirror. Smiley  )
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« Reply #37 on: December 17, 2007, 12:22:13 PM »

Ahhhh, that Western accent...Smiley People who do not routinely speak Slavic languages just cannot pronounce this "sya" syllable properly! There is NO "i" sound in it, not even the shortest "i." The vowel conveyed by these two Latin letters, "y" and "a," in Slavic languages is ONE sound, neither the "y" ('i"), nor the "a," but "ya." (In the Cyrillic alphabeth, of course, there is an appropriate letter, which looks like the Latin R reflected in the mirror. Smiley  )

These were actually made in Czechoslovakia for the Greek Catholic Eparchy of Prešov, so you're hearing the Rusyn pronounciation (of probably a most decidedly Slovak dialect).  I've heard it said before, though, that Rusyns pronounce that letter different than other Slavs.

The Metropolitan Cantor Institute has the liner notes for these recordings, as well.
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« Reply #38 on: December 18, 2007, 03:08:03 AM »

If anyone is still interested, I found a mp3 of S'nami Boh in Slavonic.  It's taken from a set of records made in the early 1970s to accompany the Papp Irmologion.

That is the correct  Prostopinije for S'nami Boh   The verses were left out, but the refrain is correct.

username!  who knows his prostopinije.

Here is the Nativity Canon
http://www.metropolitancantorinstitute.org/recordings/PappIrmologion/NativityCanon.mp3
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« Reply #39 on: December 18, 2007, 03:17:07 AM »

Thanks, Schultz! Smiley

He chants "pokoryajtesya" (obey), while I believe Ukrainians sing "poklonyajtesya" (bow, or worship), but that's close, anyway.

Ahhhh, that Western accent...Smiley People who do not routinely speak Slavic languages just cannot pronounce this "sya" syllable properly! There is NO "i" sound in it, not even the shortest "i." The vowel conveyed by these two Latin letters, "y" and "a," in Slavic languages is ONE sound, neither the "y" ('i"), nor the "a," but "ya." (In the Cyrillic alphabeth, of course, there is an appropriate letter, which looks like the Latin R reflected in the mirror. Smiley  )

Brate Heorhij: Your wealth of knowledge on most of the slavic languages ,,,staro solvenski is related most to what slavic language or very close too ...stashko.......<a href="http://plugin.smileycentral.com/http%253A%252F%252Fwww.smileycentral.com%252F%253Fpartner%253DZSzeb008%255FZS%2526i%253D23%252F23%255F33%255F7%2526feat%253Dprof/page.html" target="_blank">SmileyCentral.com" border="0<img border="0" src="http://plugin.smileycentral.com/http%253A%252F%252Fimgfarm%252Ecom%252Fimages%252Fnocache%252Ftr%252Ffw%252Fsmiley%252Fsocial%252Egif%253Fi%253D23%252F23_33_7/image.gif">[/url]
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« Reply #40 on: December 23, 2007, 01:27:58 PM »

You mean "Stara Slavans'koho" (Church Slavonic), right?

Ung-Certez
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« Reply #41 on: December 23, 2007, 02:49:58 PM »

These were actually made in Czechoslovakia for the Greek Catholic Eparchy of Prešov, so you're hearing the Rusyn pronounciation (of probably a most decidedly Slovak dialect).  I've heard it said before, though, that Rusyns pronounce that letter different than other Slavs.

"That letter" -- you mean я ?  There's no difference in that letter.  Perhaps you mean ы. Unfortunately in the United States you almost never hear that difference, as most of the American-born think it's pronounced like "eeee".  The only exception is when they sing нынђ which comes out like "NENeee" instead of "nuhnee".  It's a shame that the powers that be are perpetuating the incorrect (for us) pronunciation of ы so that their efforts (with those of their European hierarchial cohorts) to whitewash our Carpatho-Rusyn distinctiveness into some Ukrainian/Slovak mishmash will be successful and irrevocable.
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« Reply #42 on: December 23, 2007, 03:09:31 PM »

You mean "Stara Slavans'koho" (Church Slavonic), right?

Ung-Certez

Properly speaking, Church Slavonic is cerkovnoslavjanskyj jazyk, po cerkovnoslavjansky. But in everyday speech nobody really says that. In Carpatho-Rus' they say po slovjan'skŷ or staroslovjan'skŷj jazŷk -- "old Slavonic" -- even though technically "Old Church Slavonic" and "Church Slavonic" are not the same thing.
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« Reply #43 on: December 23, 2007, 04:44:52 PM »

You mean "Stara Slavans'koho" (Church Slavonic), right?

Ung-Certez
Брате,
I never heard it said this way  stara slavans'koho=[ стара славанс,кохо ]  само  тако   Црквено Словенски или старо словенски...Brat stashko......<a href="http://plugin.smileycentral.com/http%253A%252F%252Fwww.smileycentral.com%252F%253Fpartner%253DZSzeb008%255FZS%2526i%253D36%252F36%255F11%255F21%2526feat%253Dprof/page.html" target="_blank">SmileyCentral.com" border="0<img border="0" src="http://plugin.smileycentral.com/http%253A%252F%252Fimgfarm%252Ecom%252Fimages%252Fnocache%252Ftr%252Ffw%252Fsmiley%252Fsocial%252Egif%253Fi%253D36%252F36_11_21/image.gif">[/url]
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« Reply #44 on: December 23, 2007, 05:04:53 PM »

Properly speaking, Church Slavonic is cerkovnoslavjanskyj jazyk, po cerkovnoslavjansky. But in everyday speech nobody really says that. In Carpatho-Rus' they say po slovjan'skŷ or staroslovjan'skŷj jazŷk -- "old Slavonic" -- even though technically "Old Church Slavonic" and "Church Slavonic" are not the same thing.

I allways thought   the church slovanic and old slovanic were pretty much the same thou .......same azbuka or is that a little different ...Didn't people at that time hear the liturgy in the language they spoke in staro slovenski /didn't свети Кирилијо и методија..use the language that was used at that time to translate from greek to old slovanic that was spoken ...Huh??  stashko.....<a href="http://plugin.smileycentral.com/http%253A%252F%252Fwww.smileycentral.com%252F%253Fpartner%253DZSzeb008%255FZS%2526i%253D4%252F4%255F12%255F12%2526feat%253Dprof/page.html" target="_blank">SmileyCentral.com" border="0<img border="0" src="http://plugin.smileycentral.com/http%253A%252F%252Fimgfarm%252Ecom%252Fimages%252Fnocache%252Ftr%252Ffw%252Fsmiley%252Fsocial%252Egif%253Fi%253D4%252F4_12_12/image.gif">[/url]
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ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
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