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Poll
Question: Vote only if you are an Orthodox Christian! Notwithstanding your jurisdiction's policy, in your view, how should RC converts be received into the EO Church?
By statement of faith, because the RC convert has already been baptized and chrismated - 11 (25%)
By chrismation, because the convert is already a baptized Christian. The graces flowing from that baptism will increase following the convert's entry into the Church, however. - 10 (22.7%)
By chrismation, because the convert had an empty shell of a "baptism" which will now be turned into a real sacramental baptism via oikonomia. - 2 (4.5%)
By baptism, because the convert has never been baptized period. There are no sacraments outside the EO Church, and all converts should be baptized to emphasize that. - 13 (29.5%)
Other/no opinion - 8 (18.2%)
Total Voters: 44

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Mickey
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« Reply #45 on: January 15, 2008, 03:40:54 PM »

In other words, when I wrote of anti-Catholicism, I wasn't referring to all EO who believe in EO exclusivity as the Church. That doesn't make an EO an anti-Catholic. The anti-Catholic strains in contemporary EO go beyond that, making hostility to the West or the Catholic Church almost part of their identity.
Well, I have seen the uncharitable polemics swing both ways. Each side is zealous for their Church. People can sling mud all day long--heck, many protestants are "anti" anything RC or Orthodox. We can disagree, but we should not hurl insults.

Personally, I see doctrinal innovation (I know you call it development) that has crept into the RC Church over the centuries. So for me, the Catholic Church has much truth...the protestants have some truth...and Holy Orthodoxy has the fulness of truth. And the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church is that Church which retains the fulness of truth.

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« Reply #46 on: January 16, 2008, 12:01:35 AM »

I do not know the answer to that, Pravo. Because EO today are not personally guilty of the schism of long ago does not mean they are not personally guilty of a schismatic spirit today. I think the anti-Catholicism found in some EO circles is sinful. Without realizing it, these anti-Catholics are denigrating the One Church of Christ.

However, I do not have a window into men's souls and cannot judge them. I don't know your state or how efficacious the sacraments will be to you. You are in schism, of course---all we can say is that the sacraments can be efficacious to you, depending on the state of your soul (which is something nobody can judge).

I think you'll have to admit that, from your point of view, though you do not know the state of my soul, I may effectively be without sacraments.  I don't hate the Catholic Church, but I strongly deny the claim of the Pope to universal jurisdiction, plus I believe all the other things I've already mentioned before.  Surely this must be the essence of schismatic behaviour from the Catholic standpoint.    Moreover, you have already stated here that you think that there may well be quite a number of Orthodox with a "schismatic spirit" out there today.  So this means that you  believe that there are EO people who effectively have no sacraments at all.  In the end, how is this in any way different from the belief current among a significant number of Orthodox that the Latin Church has no sacramental grace?  You have claimed to find this a "hard saying" that was one of the reasons why you chose Rome over Orthodoxy, and yet here you are espousing what is essentially the same belief yourself, albeit in a different guise.
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Pravoslavbob
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« Reply #47 on: January 16, 2008, 12:13:01 AM »

The anti-Catholic strains in contemporary EO go beyond that, making hostility to the West or the Catholic Church almost part of their identity.

This is your opinion.  It is true of some Orthodox, but it is not true of all of them.   I have personally found myself going days or even weeks at a time without thinking of the Catholic Church in any way, be it negative or positive.   At times, I find myself thinking very negative things about Catholicism because of (what I see as) the erroneous and innovative ecclesiology its members sometimes push on the Orthodox these days, while not accepting that there might be a different way of looking at the nature of the Church, a way that even some of its adherents still partly espouse themselves.  At other times, I find myself appreciating the friendships I've had with Catholic people over the years, and being grateful for what they taught me, and appreciating elements in western tradition. 

Ironically, however, aren't you at least in part defining your belief in Catholicism through your opposition to Orthodox stances on ecclesiology?  How is this different from certain Orthodox definining themselves in oppostion to Catholic teaching?
« Last Edit: January 16, 2008, 12:32:29 AM by Pravoslavbob » Logged

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« Reply #48 on: January 16, 2008, 12:29:30 AM »

I'm not, actually. IMO, the Two Lungs refer to the Eastern and Western traditions. I believe the ECs well represent the Eastern lung. The Eastern Churches in schism from Rome are also bearers of the Eastern tradition, though less fully than the ECs.
Now you've really lost me.
So when you say:
Without realizing it, these anti-Catholics are denigrating the One Church of Christ.
So this "One Church" you believe gets attacked by "anti-Catholic" rhetoric is the Church under the current Pope? In other words, "those who are anti-Catholic are anti-Catholic......"   Well duh!
« Last Edit: January 16, 2008, 12:31:41 AM by ozgeorge » Logged

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« Reply #49 on: January 16, 2008, 01:00:19 AM »

I do not know the answer to that, Pravo. Because EO today are not personally guilty of the schism of long ago does not mean they are not personally guilty of a schismatic spirit today. I think the anti-Catholicism found in some EO circles is sinful. Without realizing it, these anti-Catholics are denigrating the One Church of Christ.

However, I do not have a window into men's souls and cannot judge them. I don't know your state or how efficacious the sacraments will be to you. You are in schism, of course---all we can say is that the sacraments can be efficacious to you, depending on the state of your soul (which is something nobody can judge).
Lubeltri,

I don't understand why any Catholic would be angry over the Orthodox doubts as to the validity of your sacraments.  The majority of Orthodox would say that there can be no episcopate outside the Church and without an episcopate there can be no sacraments.  This is the teaching of the Fathers whom we both share from the first millennium.

Now if Catholics get upset at the Orthodox doubts, and even denial, of Catholic Sacraments, the Catholics need to turn the spotlight back on themselves.  The Popes have stated quite categorically that the Anglicans have no episcopate and no priesthood and no Eucharist.

Why is it acceptable for you to state that so unequivocally and yet be unwilling to accept that other Churches may have made similar determinations about Roman Catholic sacraments?
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« Reply #50 on: January 16, 2008, 01:18:49 PM »

This is your opinion.  It is true of some Orthodox, but it is not true of all of them.   

Ironically, however, aren't you at least in part defining your belief in Catholicism through your opposition to Orthodox stances on ecclesiology?  How is this different from certain Orthodox definining themselves in oppostion to Catholic teaching?

I never wrote it was true of all Orthodox. Try to read my words more carefully. But I do believe it is a serious problem in some EO circles.

I have not based my belief in Catholicism on deficiencies in Orthodoxy, even partially. I don't have any hostility to Orthodoxy. I have no bone to pick. I was even part of the OCF at my university. To be honest, I am still surprised I did not end up EO, considering my interests and experiences growing up.
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« Reply #51 on: January 16, 2008, 01:22:28 PM »

So when you say:So this "One Church" you believe gets attacked by "anti-Catholic" rhetoric is the Church under the current Pope? In other words, "those who are anti-Catholic are anti-Catholic......"   Well duh!

Being a non-Catholic who disagrees with Catholic distinctives or even considers Catholicism without grace does not necessarily make you an anti-Catholic. Anti-Catholicism is a separate phenomenon: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-catholic
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« Reply #52 on: January 16, 2008, 01:27:30 PM »

Lubeltri,

I don't understand why any Catholic would be angry over the Orthodox doubts as to the validity of your sacraments.  The majority of Orthodox would say that there can be no episcopate outside the Church and without an episcopate there can be no sacraments.  This is the teaching of the Fathers whom we both share from the first millennium.

Now if Catholics get upset at the Orthodox doubts, and even denial, of Catholic Sacraments, the Catholics need to turn the spotlight back on themselves.  The Popes have stated quite categorically that the Anglicans have no episcopate and no priesthood and no Eucharist.

Why is it acceptable for you to state that so unequivocally and yet be unwilling to accept that other Churches may have made similar determinations about Roman Catholic sacraments?

We do not dispute Anglican baptism. That is a HUGE difference from your point of view.

You see, to us, if you don't accept that we have been baptized, you effectively don't accept that we are Christians. I'm not angry about it, though (as I have said before) I consider it seriously erroneous.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2008, 01:28:03 PM by lubeltri » Logged
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« Reply #53 on: January 16, 2008, 01:45:19 PM »

Being a non-Catholic who disagrees with Catholic distinctives or even considers Catholicism without grace does not necessarily make you an anti-Catholic. Anti-Catholicism is a separate phenomenon: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-catholic
Ah, the Gospel according to wiki.....
Doesn't the Orthodox Church "discriminate" against Catholics by excluding them from Communion? Doesn't that make us "anti-Catholic" according to this definition?
« Last Edit: January 16, 2008, 01:46:11 PM by ozgeorge » Logged

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« Reply #54 on: January 16, 2008, 02:19:08 PM »

Ah, the Gospel according to wiki.....
Doesn't the Orthodox Church "discriminate" against Catholics by excluding them from Communion? Doesn't that make us "anti-Catholic" according to this definition?

No.
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Ebor
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« Reply #55 on: January 16, 2008, 03:56:36 PM »

The Popes have stated quite categorically that the Anglicans have no episcopate and no priesthood and no Eucharist.


Yes, in Apostolicae Curae and there were advisors to the then pope who did not support this.  I'll have to look on the shelves for the book I have that that.  It has some interesting things.
 
And the Anglicans answered in Saepius Officio. (need I say that the Archbishops of Canterbury and York did not umm  agree with the Bishop of Rome?  Meaning no offense.)

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« Reply #56 on: January 16, 2008, 04:17:58 PM »

Each circumstance should be evaluated separately.  For many, Chrismation would be appropriate but others Baptism. 
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Pravoslavbob
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« Reply #57 on: January 19, 2008, 01:15:47 AM »

Try to read my words more carefully.

Try to use a less patronising tone.  I read them carefully enough.  It's pretty clear from the wording that you believe it to be a prevalent "problem."


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lubeltri
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« Reply #58 on: January 19, 2008, 06:27:36 PM »

Try to use a less patronising tone.  I read them carefully enough.  It's pretty clear from the wording that you believe it to be a prevalent "problem."


And it is! You don't need Catholics to tell you that. You'll find EO brethren who recognize it as a serious problem.

I know one EO who has told me that he didn't become EO to stay Protestant, but he feels that way often in some EO circles. I've seen my share of it. If you want to pretend it doesn't exist, feel free to. Queen Victoria did the same about lesbianism. Smiley

-

As for my patronizing tone, it was not meant to be. You accused me of painting all Orthodox with the anti-Catholic brush. I did no such thing. I hope I wasn't being too charitable in assuming you simply did not read my words carefully.
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« Reply #59 on: January 19, 2008, 07:46:21 PM »

And it is! You don't need Catholics to tell you that. You'll find EO brethren who recognize it as a serious problem.

I know one EO who has told me that he didn't become EO to stay Protestant, but he feels that way often in some EO circles.
I know that this is not the case in the parishes in my country where "ethnics" predominate, but I believe it can be that way in the US where in some parishes and missions everyone from the priest down comes from an Evangelical background.  The long term antidote to this is stronger contact with their mother Churches and exposure to the tradition.   In the short term an acquaintance with the local Russian parishes may help.
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