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Author Topic: Orthodox understanding of the roman catholic divine mercy devotion  (Read 15280 times) Average Rating: 0
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Athanasios
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The Divine Mercy


« Reply #45 on: November 21, 2007, 07:49:07 PM »

Hello,

The best source would be reading Sister Faustina's original diary.  Either the original or a paper facismile of the original document.  Rather we are going on a translation from a diary that was written in (most likely) portugeuse.  I wonder what the nun really wrote versus what the translaters wrote (promoting their cause or what-not).
Not likely as Saint Faustina was Polish.  Grin

It is interesting to note that faulty translations were the reason why the Vatican disapproved of the writings for a time. It was difficult getting accurate translations and information since at the time Poland was under the control of the Soviets.

I do have confidence (and so does the Vatican) that the current translations are accurate. I can post straight from the diary if you have questions beyond what the website I linked provides answers for.

And why is Fatima never doubted?  Certainly there are many instances that are, even modern situations.
I can blindly say that as I am sure a google search would clear that up.  I know my cousin and his wife go to Ireland and toss money at this lady who claims to see that Virgin Mary (at least they were doing that).  I don't remember her name, but I do remember one of my cousins saying she was already proclaimed not valid.
The case of Saint Faustina has been investigated thoroughly. It is found to not contradict Church teachings and has been approved of for belief. That means that while not a required belief, it is able to be reliably believed by Catholics.

Here are a couple of articles on private revelation:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13005a.htm
http://www.catholic.com/library/Private_Revelation.asp


Anyway, I see your point OzGeorge.  Honestly I can't answer why the RCC would create a Feast Day due to a private devotion.  John Paul 2 was a huge Fatima believer and that may explain why the Feast exists.
The Orthodox have a feast day for Our Lady of Kazan, feast day of the Protection of the Mother of God, and others - all of which fall under the realm of private revelation.
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« Reply #46 on: November 21, 2007, 08:32:02 PM »

There's no comparison with the Most Holy Mother of God appearing and the Appearance of the Blessed Saviour.. Our Salvation is in Christs hands he is our judge and jury..The Holy Mother can iintercede only she doesn't save us ...If the Holy Mother  did appear and said some thing contrary to the holy fathers the faith once delivered it wouldn't be accepted.....Did this Jesus in this appearance say to set aside the first or secound sunday after easter for this devotion to the devine mercy if he did run from it ..you can not seperate his mercy fom his Crucifixion /resurrection...why wasn't it put on the day of resurrection pasca the feast of feasts...this jesus in this Divine mercy is giving another gospel not to affend you brother satan can quote 98% or angel may be even more to decieve  ...the best thing is stick to what was handed down to the Holy Fathers that been tried and true For many eastern Fathers and Western Fathers have been martyred for the faith once delivered ,,,so you see brother we orthodox christians have to be on guard ..stashko
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« Reply #47 on: November 21, 2007, 08:48:17 PM »

Hi Salpy. I love the Armenian people.

I am wondering: what could possibly be wrong with the Sacred Heart picture?? Its so famous in the West as I guess like a Christian cultural icon that no one really associates it with a private revelation.

The Coptic church in my town has a HUGE [maybe the biggest I've ever seen!] Sacred Heart picture hanging up in the reception/meeting area. I really like it. It reminds me of Jesus' heart.


I've actually never been given a thorough explanation of why we aren't supposed to have the Sacred Heart devotion.  I just know it is not approved of.  When I started operating the church bookstore, someone tried donating some pictures of the Sacred Heart and my priest forbade it.  The only thing I have really heard against it is that it may be semi-Nestorian.  Also, I have never seen the Sacred Heart in any OO Church.  I'm surprised you saw it at that Coptic Church.  But, like I said, not everyone sticks strictly to the rules.
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« Reply #48 on: November 21, 2007, 08:49:23 PM »

Hello,
I could quote Saint Thomas Aquinas
You could, but that would hardly be a reason to suggest why it should be acceptable to the Orthodox.

No tradition of imploring God's mercy
No. Get it right: There is no tradition in Christianity or even Judaism of worshipping God's Mercy or any other of His attributes, yet "Jesus" tells Sr. Faustina that this is now what "he" wants.

The Orthodox have a feast day for Our Lady of Kazan, feast day of the Protection of the Mother of God, and others - all of which fall under the realm of private revelation.
Such Feasts are not Universally observed (Greeks don't commemorate Our Lady of Kazan). They appear on local Calendars. If another local Church wishes to adopt the feast, they are free to do so, but it is never imposed. Nor are they "Holy Days of Obligation" (as is the RC Sunday of Divine Mercy)
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« Reply #49 on: November 22, 2007, 02:24:22 AM »

The Orthodox have a feast day for Our Lady of Kazan, feast day of the Protection of the Mother of God, and others - all of which fall under the realm of private revelation.
Private revelation to one individual, or public revelation to a large crowd?
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« Reply #50 on: November 23, 2007, 07:15:16 PM »

Hello,

There's no comparison with the Most Holy Mother of God appearing and the Appearance of the Blessed Saviour.. Our Salvation is in Christs hands he is our judge and jury..The Holy Mother can iintercede only she doesn't save us ...If the Holy Mother  did appear and said some thing contrary to the holy fathers the faith once delivered it wouldn't be accepted.....Did this Jesus in this appearance say to set aside the first or secound sunday after easter for this devotion to the devine mercy if he did run from it ..you can not seperate his mercy fom his Crucifixion /resurrection...why wasn't it put on the day of resurrection pasca the feast of feasts...this jesus in this Divine mercy is giving another gospel not to affend you brother satan can quote 98% or angel may be even more to decieve  ...the best thing is stick to what was handed down to the Holy Fathers that been tried and true For many eastern Fathers and Western Fathers have been martyred for the faith once delivered ,,,so you see brother we orthodox christians have to be on guard ..stashko
It is one thing to discern such apparitions - which the Church does - and another to completely dismiss them out of hand. There are many apparitions that the Church discerns to not be credible (some such as Mary on a BLT that are dismissed out of hand). There are others that after the Church has investigated thoroughly and prayed on it and has discerned through the Holy Spirit to be not contrary to the faith and credible. These are approved for belief by the faithful (though they are not required to be believed nor does any binding doctrine come originate out of them).
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« Reply #51 on: November 23, 2007, 07:18:21 PM »

Hello,

Private revelation to one individual, or public revelation to a large crowd?
That is not what the Church means by those terms. Public Revelation is that revelation given by God to His people during Biblical times. It ended with the death of Saint John the Apostle.

Private Revelation is that revelation that has come after, whether to a single individual in seclusion or to 10 million people gathered together. No binding doctrine originates from Private Revelation.

I posted a few links that will detail further what Private Revelation is.
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« Reply #52 on: November 23, 2007, 07:27:39 PM »

Hello,

You could, but that would hardly be a reason to suggest why it should be acceptable to the Orthodox.
You're right - we'd need to have a thread on Orthodoxy and Scholasticism - or even Orthodoxy and Thomism. Unfortunately, I lack the time right now to devote to such an indepth subject. Indeed, I am lacking in time for even this thread (though I couldn't just let is slide Wink), which is why I have linked to so many sites without much added commentary. During the winter break, I'll have about a month of fairly free time to dialogue further.

No. Get it right: There is no tradition in Christianity or even Judaism of worshipping God's Mercy or any other of His attributes, yet "Jesus" tells Sr. Faustina that this is now what "he" wants.
Love is what could be called an attribute of God. And yet, we are told that God is love (1 Jn. 4:8 ). And if God is love, then that love which is God should be worshiped as God, since it is God. Just one (explicitly scriptural) example of Saint Thomas' transcendental principles.

Such Feasts are not Universally observed (Greeks don't commemorate Our Lady of Kazan). They appear on local Calendars. If another local Church wishes to adopt the feast, they are free to do so, but it is never imposed. Nor are they "Holy Days of Obligation" (as is the RC Sunday of Divine Mercy)
HAHA! Every Sunday is a day of obligation.
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« Reply #53 on: May 29, 2008, 02:49:45 AM »

The Holy Mother can intercede only she doesn't save us .
Then why do so many EO prayers ask her to save us!!
If you want to criticize customs start here.
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« Reply #54 on: May 29, 2008, 07:57:40 AM »

Then why do so many EO prayers ask her to save us!!
If you want to criticize customs start here.

Why does "Save us" always have to directly mean we are giving her co-redemptrix status?

If we pray to a Saint or the Theotokos to intercede on our behalf and we are led away from some vice, some sin, some danger or healed from some ailment, have they not saved us?
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« Reply #55 on: May 29, 2008, 12:10:42 PM »

Quote
Then why do so many EO prayers ask her to save us!! If you want to criticize customs start here.

Anyone can "save" another person, in a certain sense:

"Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins." - James 5:19-20

"Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them; that thy profiting may appear to all. Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee." - 1 Tim. 4:15-16

Only God can do the saving at the root of it, but humans can be the instruments of God, and in that sense humans can help "save us". The Theotokos can thus have a role in saving us by her prayers.
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« Reply #56 on: May 29, 2008, 01:07:43 PM »

Why does "Save us" always have to directly mean we are giving her co-redemptrix status?

If we pray to a Saint or the Theotokos to intercede on our behalf and we are led away from some vice, some sin, some danger or healed from some ailment, have they not saved us?
Just a note for clarification on the Catholic meaning of co-redemptrix. It doesn't mean that she is another redeemer but that she has co-operated with the one Redeemer and works with (co-operate means work with)  him to saves us as Friul has indicated.
BTW Friul, you explained it well.
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« Reply #57 on: June 17, 2008, 11:27:43 AM »

I'd just like to humbly point out that the Divine Mercy Chaplet was my first introduction to an Eastern Christian prayer.  You see, the last prayer in the chaplet is:

"Holy God,
Holy Mighty One,
Holy Immortal One,
Have mercy on us
and on the whole world."

and the very first time I attended the Divine Liturgy and heard that chant (a slightly different translation, of course, but quite recognizable), I felt right at home!
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« Reply #58 on: June 17, 2008, 11:39:05 AM »

^ I never heard the last phrase "and on the whole world" used in the Thrice-Holy Prayers.  What Jurisdiction's Church did you hear the above given that you are Greek Catholic?

Edited post to clarify the question.
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« Reply #59 on: June 17, 2008, 11:52:27 AM »

Um, I'm not Greek Catholic; I'm Byzantine Rite Catholic (actually Latin Rite Catholic, but married to a Byzantine Rite Catholic - is that enough info, sir?  Wink  police).

And I did say that it was a slightly different translation, but still recognizable.

In our church , we sing:

"Holy God,
Holy and Mighty,
Holy and Immortal,
Have mercy on us."

Yes, the Divine Mercy chaplet adds the phrase "and on the whole world".  As I said, it's a different translation, but still close enough that I "got it" the first time I heard it.

(Oh dear, only my third post here and I'm already in trouble!!!  Grin)
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« Reply #60 on: June 17, 2008, 12:56:14 PM »

Discussion about the Eastern-Rite Chuches and their names can be found here:  The sui iuris Churches of the Eastern Rite

--Friul
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« Reply #61 on: June 17, 2008, 07:12:50 PM »

I never heard the last phrase "and on the whole world" used in the Thrice-Holy Prayers.  What Jurisdiction's Church did you hear the above given that you are Greek Catholic?

This is in the Divine Mercy chaplet, not the Trisagion prayers.
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« Reply #62 on: June 17, 2008, 08:39:41 PM »

Then why do so many EO prayers ask her to save us!!
If you want to criticize customs start here.



We always ask The Holy Mother and The Saint's to Intercede For Us ,,But on There own they can do nothing...The Lord Allow's it...What Son wouldn't listen to his mother..Especially the Son of God ,when his Holy Mother Should Ask on our behalf...
 Seem to me and the protestants ,,That your catholic church have made her into  a pagan goddess and the pope  a pagan god ,,you preach mary more than christ,,and pope more that Christ...the images of lourd's, or fatima
 show rays shooting out her hands,,titles imaculate conception..mediatrix of graces..imaculate heart....Sacred heart ...Non of it is found in the holy Scriptures or in the holy father's the faith once delivered unto salvation....
 For us orthodox The Holy Mother point's to Jesus...as the center of our redemption...

 The other title that's blasphemes the Spouse of the Holy Spirit... nowhere does it say she's the spouse.be in scriptures or  the Holy Father's never mentioned that......or i never heard or read that in orthodoxy,, only on a catholic forum....SmileyCentral.com" border="0SmileyCentral.com" border="0Господе Исусе Христе Помилуј Се На Нас Грешне...Амин..SmileyCentral.com" border="0
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« Reply #63 on: June 17, 2008, 09:35:27 PM »


 Seem to me and the protestants ,,That your catholic church have made her into  a pagan goddess and the pope  a pagan god ,,you preach mary more than christ,,and pope more that Christ...the images of lourd's, or fatima
 show rays shooting out her hands,,titles imaculate conception..mediatrix of graces..imaculate heart....Sacred heart ...Non of it is found in the holy Scriptures or in the holy father's the faith once delivered unto salvation....
 For us orthodox The Holy Mother point's to Jesus...as the center of our redemption...

 The other title that's blasphemes the Spouse of the Holy Spirit... nowhere does it say she's the spouse.be in scriptures or  the Holy Father's never mentioned that......or i never heard or read that in orthodoxy,, only on a catholic forum....SmileyCentral.com" border="0SmileyCentral.com" border="0Господе Исусе Христе Помилуј Се На Нас Грешне...Амин..SmileyCentral.com" border="0

There is a strong and profound Marian devotion within the Roman Catholic Church, there is no doubt about that, but to state that the Theotokos or the Pope are raised above Chirst shows an extrememly ignorant view of Roman Catholic theology.  Saying that Theotokos is worshipped as some "pagan goddess" is not only a gross distortion of official Roman Catholic Church teaching, but insulting not only to Catholics on this forum but to her own holy name.  One only has to look at the CCC to see that Christ is undoubtably at the core of the Roman Catholic Church and that she is the "masterwork of the mission of the Son and the Spirit in the fullness of time" (721) and "most perfectly embodies the obedience of faith" (148).  In turn, "what the [Roman] Catholic faith believes about Mary is based on what it believes about Christ, and what it teaches about Mary illumines in turn its faith in Christ". (487)  The Pope is not 'preached' about more than Christ and one only has to look either at the Roman Catholic liturgies to see that, or at the various writings by Roman Catholic theologians, Priests, Bishops, Cardinals or Popes (including Cardinal Ratzinger's Dominus Iesus).

I understand you disagree (strongly) with various dogma, apparitions, revelations, devotions, etc of the Roman Catholic Church, but you can do some constructively and charitably.  A proper discussion is not going to occur when people feel attacked but when a proper dialogue is initiated.  Calling Roman Catholic devotion to the Theotokos pagan, whether you agree or disagree with various dogma, is insulting on various levels and erroneous.  If you want to constructively discuss the Divine Mercy devotion, enjoy; if you want to sling mud, take it to the private.  Your posting style, when Roman Catholicism is concerned, is consistently abrasive and 'drive-by' in nature.
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« Reply #64 on: June 17, 2008, 10:26:10 PM »

Tangent about Pope/God on Earth was merged with this thread:  Pope of Rome Questions: Christ/God on earth, representative of Christ, etc?

-- Friul
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« Reply #65 on: June 17, 2008, 10:30:49 PM »

There is a strong and profound Marian devotion within the Roman Catholic Church, there is no doubt about that, but to state that the Theotokos or the Pope are raised above Chirst shows an extrememly ignorant view of Roman Catholic theology.  Saying that Theotokos is worshipped as some "pagan goddess" is not only a gross distortion of official Roman Catholic Church teaching, but insulting not only to Catholics on this forum but to her own holy name.  One only has to look at the CCC to see that Christ is undoubtably at the core of the Roman Catholic Church and that she is the "masterwork of the mission of the Son and the Spirit in the fullness of time" (721) and "most perfectly embodies the obedience of faith" (148).  In turn, "what the [Roman] Catholic faith believes about Mary is based on what it believes about Christ, and what it teaches about Mary illumines in turn its faith in Christ". (487)  The Pope is not 'preached' about more than Christ and one only has to look either at the Roman Catholic liturgies to see that, or at the various writings by Roman Catholic theologians, Priests, Bishops, Cardinals or Popes (including Cardinal Ratzinger's Dominus Iesus).

I understand you disagree (strongly) with various dogma, apparitions, revelations, devotions, etc of the Roman Catholic Church, but you can do some constructively and charitably.  A proper discussion is not going to occur when people feel attacked but when a proper dialogue is initiated.  Calling Roman Catholic devotion to the Theotokos pagan, whether you agree or disagree with various dogma, is insulting on various levels and erroneous.  If you want to constructively discuss the Divine Mercy devotion, enjoy; if you want to sling mud, take it to the private.  Your posting style, when Roman Catholicism is concerned, is consistently abrasive and 'drive-by' in nature.


For proof read the caf ..that mary is preached more than christ ... pope ,,magistarium,more than christ...no it's not hate  it's how i see it...and read it on there own forum and so do the protestants...SmileyCentral.com" border="0
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« Reply #66 on: June 17, 2008, 10:34:10 PM »


For proof read the caf ..that mary is preached more than christ ... pope ,,magistarium,more than christ...no it's not hate  it's how i see it...and read it on there own forum and so do the protestants...SmileyCentral.com" border="0
Other than your own self-defense, what's your point in repeating this here on this thread?
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« Reply #67 on: June 17, 2008, 10:40:14 PM »

The other person is accusing me of hating i don't hate anybody..im just writing on what ive read don't agree on.that's all...SmileyCentral.com" border="0
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« Reply #68 on: June 17, 2008, 11:01:08 PM »


For proof read the caf ..that mary is preached more than christ ... pope ,,magistarium,more than christ...no it's not hate  it's how i see it...and read it on there own forum and so do the protestants...SmileyCentral.com" border="0

I have read caf and I got banned for holding traditionalist Roman Catholic views at the time.  I studied with the intention of heading to St. Augustine's seminary in Toronto under Father Patrick of the SSPX, Father William of the FSSP, and was in contact with Bishop Matthew of Hamilton.  Obviously, my knowledge is far from perfect, but I do have a good grasp of Roman Catholic theology, devotions and traditions.  To base Roman Catholicism off an internet forum, let alone CAF, is ludicrous.  If you want to know what the RCC teaches, read the CCC, read the Code of Canon Law, read various works from the last several centuries, talk to learned members of the clergy, etc.  Forums are great places to get opinions but they may differ from official teachings substantially.  CAF did so on many occasions.  If a Catholic were to read liberal positions on homosexual marriages, female priesthood and ecumenicism from Orthodox sources, wouldn't you rather they find proper teachings and base their opinions off that?
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« Reply #69 on: June 17, 2008, 11:11:07 PM »

The other person is accusing me of hating i don't hate anybody..im just writing on what ive read don't agree on.that's all...SmileyCentral.com" border="0

It is just your posting style, it reeks of contempt.  I am not sure if it is intentional or not, but people (especially inquirers from Catholicism) will be more willing to further explore Orthodoxy when they are met with love, understanding, patience and charity.  When met with what appears to be a drive-by posting style with your laundry list of grievances with little to no actual content, they will most likely tire of inquiring and look elsewhere (and for some unfortunately, stop looking all together).

When moderating a section such as this, one has to balance the needs and feelings of both sides without stifling free speech.  The easiest way to do so is to encourage discussion and debate, but charitably.  One allows the free discussion of ideas and civil debate, while curving the posts that do little to encourage that. 

If you disagree with my style, you can PM ozgeorge about it.
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« Reply #70 on: June 17, 2008, 11:25:25 PM »

 Brother peace...Actually i was answering skippy that's all ..i forgot to merge his and my in a quote  that's all....i really dont believe in those apparition period .if there wrong and ill tell him.. i won't tell him what he want's to hear if i don't agree on it and that's that....i haven't been on this thread for a while till skippy want'd to correct me...SmileyCentral.com" border="0


Had to correct name sparky  to skippy   sooorrrryyyyy
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« Reply #71 on: June 17, 2008, 11:33:43 PM »

Brother peace...Actually i was answering sparky that's all ..i forgot to merge his and my in a quote  that's all....i really dont believe in those apparition period .if there wrong and ill tell him.. i won't tell him what he want's to hear if i don't agree on it and that's that....i haven't been on this thread for a while till sparky want'd to correct me...SmileyCentral.com" border="0

No worries.  When I was Roman Catholic, I was not bound to believe such apparitions, and for most, I chose not to.  You in no way have to water down your beliefs or faith for others, all I am asking is that you try to post in a way that encourages further civil discussion.
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« Reply #72 on: June 18, 2008, 01:09:03 AM »

This is in the Divine Mercy chaplet, not the Trisagion prayers.

I'm going to take a different tact in providing the Orthodox Understanding of the Divine Mercy Devotion.  I quoted some of the following text from the link below.

Source for Excerpt Below

Jesus said later to Sister Faustina:

"Say unceasingly this chaplet that I have taught you. Anyone who
says it will receive great Mercy at the hour of death. Priests
will recommend it to sinners as the last hope. Even the most
hardened sinner, if he recites this Chaplet even once, will
receive grace from My Infinite Mercy.
I want the whole world to
know My Infinite Mercy. I want to give unimaginable graces to
those who trust in My Mercy...."


Another link on the same website quotes 2 passages of Scripture: Isaiah 29:13 & Matthew 5:7.  I'll reproduce the passage from Isaiah:

13 Inasmuch as these people draw near with their mouths And honor Me with their lips, But have removed their hearts far from Me, And their fear toward Me is taught by the commandment of men

The Orthodox Study Bible says about the Isaiah Passage:

A right heart before God in prayer is even more important than the right words, for God hears our "groanings which cannot be uttered"

So, if the passage from Isaiah refers to how Man is taught to fear God via the Commandment of Man, the comments to Sister Faustina implicate that Man continues to have fear of God due to the commandments of Man and only a Priest can "cure" one's fear of God by recommending the Divine Mercy Chaplet as a last hope such that a sinner can obtain "Mercy" from Jesus.  Is there anywhere in the New Testament where someone was afraid of the Son of God?
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« Reply #73 on: June 18, 2008, 09:53:40 AM »

There is a strong and profound Marian devotion within the Roman Catholic Church, there is no doubt about that, but to state that the Theotokos or the Pope are raised above Chirst shows an extrememly ignorant view of Roman Catholic theology.  Saying that Theotokos is worshipped as some "pagan goddess" is not only a gross distortion of official Roman Catholic Church teaching, but insulting not only to Catholics on this forum but to her own holy name.  One only has to look at the CCC to see that Christ is undoubtably at the core of the Roman Catholic Church and that she is the "masterwork of the mission of the Son and the Spirit in the fullness of time" (721) and "most perfectly embodies the obedience of faith" (148).  In turn, "what the [Roman] Catholic faith believes about Mary is based on what it believes about Christ, and what it teaches about Mary illumines in turn its faith in Christ". (487)  The Pope is not 'preached' about more than Christ and one only has to look either at the Roman Catholic liturgies to see that, or at the various writings by Roman Catholic theologians, Priests, Bishops, Cardinals or Popes (including Cardinal Ratzinger's Dominus Iesus).

It might not be official Roman Catholic teaching, but I think there's a very credible claim that in some areas, popular Marian devotion borders on Mariolatry, especially in Latin America, where Catholicism seems to have been blended with native religions.  I would make the argument that owes more to faulty catechism and evangelism than faulty theology, however.
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« Reply #74 on: June 18, 2008, 10:36:33 AM »

It might not be official Roman Catholic teaching, but I think there's a very credible claim that in some areas, popular Marian devotion borders on Mariolatry, especially in Latin America, where Catholicism seems to have been blended with native religions.  I would make the argument that owes more to faulty catechism and evangelism than faulty theology, however.

I agree, Veniamin, and would add that much of what you have written could be applicable to the Orthodox Church as well.
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« Reply #75 on: June 18, 2008, 11:12:07 AM »

It might not be official Roman Catholic teaching, but I think there's a very credible claim that in some areas, popular Marian devotion borders on Mariolatry, especially in Latin America, where Catholicism seems to have been blended with native religions.  I would make the argument that owes more to faulty catechism and evangelism than faulty theology, however.

Agreed.  Unfortunately, faulty catechism is something that hurts not only Roman Catholicism and Orthodoxy, but the chance at fruitful dialogue between their members.
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« Reply #76 on: June 18, 2008, 03:50:57 PM »

I don't think it's any secret that catechisis in the R.C. Church has been pretty bad for the last 40-50 years.  So it's certainly possible some people may have gotten the wrong information about the position of the Theotokos.

However, to their credit, my parents, though they might be perceived as "liberal Catholics" by some, made sure we got the correct information, for which I'm profoundly grateful. And the only time I ever thought about Mary as a "goddess" was during my flirtation with Wicca & the New Age, way back in the '70's-'80s.  I know better now!  Grin
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« Reply #77 on: July 09, 2008, 07:47:43 AM »

After reading through the first part of this thread (I think the rest has digressed a bit), I think I see the "problem."

To the Eastern Orthodox, there is a great distinction (at least greater than among the Oriental Orthodox) made between the Energies of God and the Essence of God.  But to the Latins, such a distinction does not exist.  To Latins, Being, Action, and Attribute in God are one and the same.  Thus THEOLOGICALLY speaking, Latin devotion to the "Mercy of God" is not different from devotion to God Himself.

I believe Eastern Christians should understand that before criticizing it.  Latins do not believe they are worshipping Mercy as an Attribute distinct from God.  Rather, Latins believe they are worshipping God Who is Mercy itself.

My Latin brethren, have I got that right?

Blessings,
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« Reply #78 on: July 09, 2008, 11:58:41 AM »

After reading through the first part of this thread (I think the rest has digressed a bit), I think I see the "problem."

To the Eastern Orthodox, there is a great distinction (at least greater than among the Oriental Orthodox) made between the Energies of God and the Essence of God.  But to the Latins, such a distinction does not exist.  To Latins, Being, Action, and Attribute in God are one and the same.  Thus THEOLOGICALLY speaking, Latin devotion to the "Mercy of God" is not different from devotion to God Himself.

I believe Eastern Christians should understand that before criticizing it.  Latins do not believe they are worshipping Mercy as an Attribute distinct from God.  Rather, Latins believe they are worshipping God Who is Mercy itself.

My Latin brethren, have I got that right?

Blessings,
Marduk

Quite right and very well put!  A devotion to the Divine Mercy is a devotion to God Himself.

In fact, a sister once explained to me that one of the titles of the Mother of God is "Mother of Mercy", because she is the mother of Jesus, who is Mercy personfied.  I always think of that when I think of the Divine Mercy devotion.
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« Reply #79 on: July 09, 2008, 12:22:28 PM »

After reading through the first part of this thread (I think the rest has digressed a bit), I think I see the "problem."

To the Eastern Orthodox, there is a great distinction (at least greater than among the Oriental Orthodox) made between the Energies of God and the Essence of God.  But to the Latins, such a distinction does not exist.  To Latins, Being, Action, and Attribute in God are one and the same.  Thus THEOLOGICALLY speaking, Latin devotion to the "Mercy of God" is not different from devotion to God Himself.

I believe Eastern Christians should understand that before criticizing it.  Latins do not believe they are worshipping Mercy as an Attribute distinct from God.  Rather, Latins believe they are worshipping God Who is Mercy itself.

My Latin brethren, have I got that right?

As I understand it 'Mercy' is a Virtue and as a virtue it is a righteous characteristic of the Divine. When we are virtuous we participate in the Divine Nature so I would conclude that Mercy is an a attribute of the Divine. In the simplicity of the Divine we must see the distinction of attributes as ultimately artificial and a aid for the limits of our mortal minds, no? Is not the distinction of God's Essence and Energies not thought of in the same fashion?  Undecided
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« Reply #80 on: August 22, 2008, 01:19:07 PM »

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Sister Faustina The Divine mercy is doctrine now of the catholic church ,founded on this apparition..why are catholic so brain washed and chase after apparitions and want to believe and practice what these apparitions are telling them to do..they put away what the holy fathers recieved from the apostles once and for all given unto salvation..chase after new visions new revelations ..
either the sacred heart or the divine mercy has surplanted paska the feast of feast the greatest mercy given to man kind...it preaches the first monday for nine consecutive mondays  after easter that guarentees your salvation if you do this or that some one else can fill this blanks thats familiar with what these apparitions preach...SmileyCentral.com" border="0
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« Reply #81 on: August 22, 2008, 01:48:42 PM »

Sister Faustina The Divine mercy is doctrine now of the catholic church ,founded on this apparition..

Well, they would argue the Divine Mercy is a devotion and not a doctrine within the RCC.

either the sacred heart or the divine mercy has surplanted paska the feast of feast the greatest mercy given to man kind...it preaches the first monday for nine consecutive mondays  after easter that guarentees your salvation if you do this or that some one else can fill this blanks thats familiar with what these apparitions preach...


I think you are referring to this:

"In the excess of the mercy of my Heart, I promise you that my all powerful love will grant to all those who will receive Communion on the First Fridays, for nine consecutive months, the grace of final repentance: they will not die in my displeasure, nor without receiving the sacraments; and my Heart will be their secure refuge in that last hour."

Two issues with this "Promise" is that there are different versions of what was exactly said and also many RC clergy have spoken out about how the promises were originally published since they varied greatly from the original and were very "dumbed-down" to the point of altering the meanings. 
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