Orthodox understanding of the roman catholic divine mercy devotion

[stashko]

What is the orthodox understanding of the divine mercy devotion,,the supposed appearance of jesus and the messages he told Sr.faustina.... stashko

[ozgeorge]

From an Orthodox point of view, there are at least two problems with this and similar devotions:

1) Christ is One, undivided Hypostasis. This is basic Orthodox Christian Dogma.
Devotion to various parts of Christ's Body and Attributes such as: The Sacred Heart of Jesus, The Shoulder Wound of Jesus, The Divine Mercy, The Precious Blood etc. begin to create a bit of a theological problem. If we divide Christ into His various "parts" and venerate each "part" individually, are we dividing the Hypostasis of Christ?

2) These devotions are the result of "private revelations" to individuals. Assuming, for the moment, that these "revelations" are not a result of prelest, even if they are genuine, they are still private, and therefore not required to be believed as doctrine. The Roman Catholic Church also states this, yet, in it's praxis, the Roman Catholic Church says differently. The "Feast of the Sacred Heart of Jesus" is a Universal Feast on the Roman Catholic Paschalion- so while nobody is required to accept devotion to the Sacred Heart as a true revelation, every Roman Catholic who goes to Mass 19 days after Pentecost is required to attend a Mass in honour of the Sacred Heart of Jesus. Very confusing. If it's not a doctrine, why have a Universal Feast for it? Similarly, the nun who received the "revelations" of the Devotion to the Divine Mercy, Sr. Faustina, was canonized as a Saint of the Roman Catholic on 30th April 2000, and on the 23rd of may that year, the Roman Catholic Church, in accordance with one of these private Revelations of Sr. Faustina, declared the Second Sunday of Easter to be the "Feast of the Divine Mercy", again, imposing on the whole Roman Catholic Church, a devotion which was the result of a private revelation, and therefore shouldn't require assent of faith.

[Carole]

ozgeorge,

Thank you for your post.  While I'm "up in the air" on your first point, your second point summed up (though I didn't  know it until I read it) my "problem" with some of the Catholic devotions.  I knew only that some of them made me uncomfortable, but I couldn't really explain why.  Your 2nd paragraph summed it up nicely. 

[ozgeorge]

From the book 'Orthodox Dogmatic Theology' by Fr Michael Pomazansky (pp 188-9)


The One Worship of Christ
To the Lord Jesus Christ as to one person, as the God-Man, it is fitted to give a single inseparable worship, both according to Divinity and according to humanity, precisely because both natures are inseparably united in Him. The decree of the Fathers of the Fifth Ecumenical Council (the Ninth Canon against Heretics) reads: "If anyone shall take the expression, Christ ought to be worshipped in His two natures, in the sense that he wishes to introduce thus two adorations, the one in special relation to God the Word and the other pertaining to the Man ... and does not venerate, by one adoration, God the Word made man, together with His flesh, as the Holy Church has taught from the beginning: let him be anathema" (Seven Ecumenical Councils, NPNF, p.314)

A Word on the Latin Cult of the "Heart of Jesus"
In connection with this decree of the Council it may be seen how out of harmony with the spirit and practice of the Church is the cult of the "Sacred Heart of Jesus" which has been introduced into the Roman Catholic Church. Although the above-cited decree of the Fifth Ecumenical Council touches only on the separate worship of the Divinity and the humanity of the Saviour, it still indirectly tells us that in general the veneration and worship of Christ should be directed to Him as a whole and not to parts of His Being; it must be one. Even if by "heart" we should understand the Saviour's love itself, still neither in the Old Testament nor in the New was there ever a custom to worship separately the love of God, or His wisdom, or His creative or providential power, or His sanctity. All the more must one say this concerning the parts of His bodily nature. There is something unnatural in the separation of the heart from the general bodily nature of the Lord for the purpose of prayer, contrition and worship before Him. Even in the ordinary relationships of life, no matter how much a man might be attached to another - for example, a mother to a child - he would never refer his attachment to the heart of the beloved person, but will refer it to the given person as a whole.

[pathofsolitude]

From an Orthodox point of view, there are at least two problems with this and similar devotions:

1) Christ is One, undivided Hypostasis. This is basic Orthodox Christian Dogma.
Devotion to various parts of Christ's Body and Attributes such as: The Sacred Heart of Jesus, The Shoulder Wound of Jesus, The Divine Mercy, The Precious Blood etc. begin to create a bit of a theological problem. If we divide Christ into His various "parts" and venerate each "part" individually, are we dividing the Hypostasis of Christ?

I want to laugh at this but I dont want to start you on your hypostatical rant again. If I go to the doctor and tell him that my fingers hurt from responding to too many silly computer arguments, and he treats my fingers individually and writes reports on them and stuff, would that mean that he is dividing me up? 

To stashko- the truth is that the Byzantines have strong pseudoApollinarian tendencies. Ozgeorge doesnt even think that the humanity of Christ is hypostasis. A hypostasis is a concrete entity. I have heard OOs, following the lead of Cyril and Severus who both affirm that the humanity is hypostasis, say that the Byzantines are cryptoMonophysites. Thats the real reason why they hate Roman Catholic devotions.

What I have said here is going to be trashed by many people but its still true.

[ozgeorge]

he treats my fingers individually and writes reports on them and stuff

So this doctor of yours treats your finger as though it was separate from the rest of you, and writes up a report and files it in a seperate file in a folder marked "pathofsolitude's finger" and sends the bill to your finger.
I suggest you get a second opinion.

the truth is that the Byzantines have strong pseudoApollinarian tendencies.

That's funny. I thought it was the Nestorians who accused the Miaphysites of being pseudoApollinarian.

Ozgeorge doesnt even think that the humanity of Christ is hypostasis.

No, he doesn't. So is the Divinity of Christ also an hypostasis? Is so, Christ has two hypostases- therefore the Holy Trinity is a quartet.

A hypostasis is a concrete entity.

Yes, you keep saying this, and I keep asking: "Is Divinity a concrete entity also?" Or is it just imaginary?
Do Angels have hypostases even though they do not have "concrete" bodies?

Cyril and Severus who both affirm that the humanity is hypostasis,

Citations?

the Byzantines are cryptoMonophysites.

Could you please explain how "the Byzantines" as you call them can be considerered "cryptomonophysites" by the Oriental Orthodox considering the fact that the schism came about because "the Byzantines" were diaphysites? You really should do your homework before using big words.

Thats the real reason why they hate Roman Catholic devotions.

I see. Except what you claim is the "real reason" doesn't exist, since "the Byzantines" are diaphysites.
 

What I have said here is going to be trashed by many people but its still true.

I see. So peer review is pre-emptively rejected by you. So then what is your test for "the truth"? Is "the truth" simply "what pathofsolitude believes is true"?
The Oracle has spoken- no point discussing it. You clearly want to be able to just say whatever you want without being questioned in any way. That's fine, I won't question you any more.

[ozgeorge]

"I'm up in the air" on your first point,

Carole,
Do you see a difference between:

(1) "Worship of Jesus, the Divine Mercy"
and
(2) "Worship of the Divine Mercy of Jesus"?

What I am saying is that statement No. (1) is acceptable in Orthodoxy, while statement No. (2) starts getting a bit theologically suspect.

George

[Carole]

Carole,
Do you see a difference between:

(1) "Worship of Jesus, the Divine Mercy"
and
(2) "Worship of the Divine Mercy of Jesus"?

What I am saying is that statement No. (1) is acceptable in Orthodoxy, while statement No. (2) starts getting a bit theologically suspect.

George

George,

With all due respect - I hold no firm opinion on item number 1.  And I'm not really interested in debating it with you.  I only posted to thank you for item number 2.  I have neither the interest (at this time) nor the intellectual capacity to worry about #1 at this time.  The semantics of the argument really don't interest me.  But I do appreciate your effort.

[yBeayf]

A bigger problem with the Divine Mercy devotion than any supposed veneration of parts of Christ in isolation is the actual text of the chaplet that was "revealed" to Sr. Faustina. It contains this prayer:

"Eternal Father, I offer You the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Your dearly beloved Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ, in atonement for our sins and those of the whole world."

To be very charitable, this reflects a very confused soteriological understanding.

[lubeltri]

I can't resist, but. . .

While you all smugly criticize, parse and split hairs, millions of simple people say this devotion on a daily basis with a humble heart and a sincere faith.

I'd love to see you walk up to one of these people and say to them, "To be very charitable, what you are doing reflects a very confused soteriological understanding."

There is nothing wrong with the Chaplet of Divine Mercy. The prayers are not directed to God's mercy as if it is a fourth part of the Trinity but to God the Father for his mercy effected through Christ's Passion.

I have received many graces from this devotion and know many others who have as well.

(MTA: not directed to Carole)

[JoeS]

A bigger problem with the Divine Mercy devotion than any supposed veneration of parts of Christ in isolation is the actual text of the chaplet that was "revealed" to Sr. Faustina. It contains this prayer:

"Eternal Father, I offer You the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Your dearly beloved Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ, in atonement for our sins and those of the whole world."

To be very charitable, this reflects a very confused soteriological understanding.

"....I offer you the Body and Blood,..." if done during Mass would loosely correspond to our "Thine own of Thine own, we offer unto to Thee on behalf of all, and for all". But, how do we offer back to God His soul and Divinity?  This is real problematic to put it simply.

JoeS

[lubeltri]

"....I offer you the Body and Blood,..." if done during Mass would loosely correspond to our "Thine own of Thine own, we offer unto to Thee on behalf of all, and for all". But, how do we offer back to God His soul and Divinity?  This is real problematic to put it simply.

JoeS

Now who's dividing? We say Body and Blood, but implicitly with this is the Soul and Divinity. They can't be divided from each other. So when we say "Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity" we mean the whole Christ, both human and divine.

[ozgeorge]

While you all smugly criticize, parse and split hairs,

Why is your only defense to theological objections a sweeping ad hominem that anyone who objects is being "smug"?

millions of simple people say this devotion on a daily basis with a humble heart and a sincere faith.

Millions of people also worship Ganesh with devotion on a daily basis. So what's your point?

I'd love to see you walk up to one of these people and say to them, "To be very charitable, what you are doing reflects a very confused soteriological understanding."

Well ybeayf didn't do that, did he? He raised an intelligent theological point in a discussion forum.

[JoeS]

Now who's dividing? We say Body and Blood, but implicitly with this is the Soul and Divinity. They can't be divided from each other. So when we say "Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity" we mean the whole Christ, both human and divine.

I think this is another example of the western church in her quest to understand a mystery above what Christ gave us at the Last Supper.  Personally, I would consider this another innovation and one which is unnecessary.  But, thats just my humble opinion.

[RPConover]

Having read from of Sr. Faustina'a diary, a lot of things troubled me from the beginning:

On page 168, it says: “The moment I knelt down to cross out my own will, as the Lord had bid me to do, I heard this voice in my soul: From now on, do not fear God’s judgment, for you will not be judged.” (from Feb. 4, 1935)

On page 288, “Jesus” says: “That is why I am uniting myself with you so intimately as with no other creature

On page 382, “Jesus” says: “I desire that My mercy be worshipped.”

On page 400, “Jesus” says: “I see your love so pure, purer than that of the angels, and all the more so because you keep fighting.  For your sake I bless the world.”

On page 417,  “Jesus” supposedly gave Sr. Faustina this instruction: “Tell the Superior General to count on you as the most faithful daughter in the Order.”



The incredible amount of praise which Christ supposedly lavishes on Faustina would seem to foster anything but humility. I cannot help but feel like it is a demonic deception meant to foster pride and vanity. However, who am I to say...?

[ozgeorge]

The prayers are not directed to God's mercy

May be not, but:

On page 382, “Jesus” says: “I desire that My mercy be worshipped.”

Hmmmmm......

[stashko]

As orthodox christians we knew the great mercy God has shown us at the crucification/resurrection,,im just curious ,why would we need another appearance of the Lord to confirm this..plus other things were mentioned by this christ ,unknown to the Holy Fathers the faith once delivered...
Like with the sacred heart storys ...a promise the first nine friday of each month for a get out of hell card,or salvation guaranteed,, again unknown to the Holy Fathers ...wouldn't these new Revelations that this jesus is delivering be considered another Gospel not known to the Holy God bearing Fathers the faith once and for all delivered....stashko

[Ziggernaut]

I want to laugh at this but I dont want to start you on your hypostatical rant again. If I go to the doctor and tell him that my fingers hurt from responding to too many silly computer arguments, and he treats my fingers individually and writes reports on them and stuff, would that mean that he is dividing me up? 

I hesitate to venture here, not being a theologian and having very little formal theological training, so I'll address your first, somehwhat mocking point.

The answer to the question is, yes!  He would be dividing you up and treating just the symptoms of your fingers.  He would not be treating you.  If he were to do that he would probably prescribe abstinence from participation in silly computer arguments, to be followed, after sufficient rest, with suitable exercises for your fingers and for your discretion concerning which computer arguments to participate in.  This is called treating the person, not his/her parts. 

Just my 1.5 cents-worth. 

God Bless,
Jeff

[stashko]

From the book 'Orthodox Dogmatic Theology' by Fr Michael Pomazansky (pp 188-9)


The One Worship of Christ
To the Lord Jesus Christ as to one person, as the God-Man, it is fitted to give a single inseparable worship, both according to Divinity and according to humanity, precisely because both natures are inseparably united in Him. The decree of the Fathers of the Fifth Ecumenical Council (the Ninth Canon against Heretics) reads: "If anyone shall take the expression, Christ ought to be worshipped in His two natures, in the sense that he wishes to introduce thus two adorations, the one in special relation to God the Word and the other pertaining to the Man ... and does not venerate, by one adoration, God the Word made man, together with His flesh, as the Holy Church has taught from the beginning: let him be anathema" (Seven Ecumenical Councils, NPNF, p.314)

A Word on the Latin Cult of the "Heart of Jesus"
In connection with this decree of the Council it may be seen how out of harmony with the spirit and practice of the Church is the cult of the "Sacred Heart of Jesus" which has been introduced into the Roman Catholic Church. Although the above-cited decree of the Fifth Ecumenical Council touches only on the separate worship of the Divinity and the humanity of the Saviour, it still indirectly tells us that in general the veneration and worship of Christ should be directed to Him as a whole and not to parts of His Being; it must be one. Even if by "heart" we should understand the Saviour's love itself, still neither in the Old Testament nor in the New was there ever a custom to worship separately the love of God, or His wisdom, or His creative or providential power, or His sanctity. All the more must one say this concerning the parts of His bodily nature. There is something unnatural in the separation of the heart from the general bodily nature of the Lord for the purpose of prayer, contrition and worship before Him. Even in the ordinary relationships of life, no matter how much a man might be attached to another - for example, a mother to a child - he would never refer his attachment to the heart of the beloved person, but will refer it to the given person as a whole.

Brother;
Wow your  a bottomless well of knowledge ,,,im humbled by it ...stashko

[FrChris]

I will post some quotes when I get the time.

Make sure you find the time. Sooner rather than later.

+Fr Chris
Admin

[Ziggernaut]

Brother;
Wow your  a bottomless well of knowledge ,,,im humbled by it ...stashko

I can only concur with my brother Stashko.  I am constantly humbled by the breadth and depth of knowledge of many of my Orthodox brothers and sisters, especially those posting here.  Makes the 2 or 3 things that rattle around in my nearly-empty head seem as virtually nothing, which, I guess, they are.  And how very refreshing it all is, too!!

In Christ,
Jeff

[Athanasios]

Hello,

1) Christ is One, undivided Hypostasis. This is basic Orthodox Christian Dogma.

It is precisely because of this that when we worship the Sacred Heart, or the Precious Blood, or the Divine Mercy that we give worship directly to the whole Jesus.

[ozgeorge]

Make sure you find the time. Sooner rather than later.

FYI, pathofsolitude has responded to this, and I have moved the post to Oriental Orthodox discussion:
( http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=13478.0 ) in order to keep this thread on topic.

[Salpy]

I have heard OOs, following the lead of Cyril and Severus who both affirm that the humanity is hypostasis, say that the Byzantines are cryptoMonophysites. Thats the real reason why they hate Roman Catholic devotions.

I'm assuming that by "Byzantines" you mean EO's.  I have never heard them accused of being cryptoMonophysites.  I've heard them accused of being cryptoNestorians and a lot of other things, but not that one.  I'm not saying no one has ever said it.  I obviously don't know every OO on the planet.  It's just that this accusation is a new one to me.

Also, just for the record, OO's are not supposed to participate in the Sacred Heart devotion and, I'm assuming, the other devotions mentioned here.  Our reasons are probably the same as those of the EO's, since our Christology is so similar, despite the different language.  I've heard the Sacred Heart devotion accused of being Nestorian.  I know my priest does not approve of it.

Of course, there are individual OO's (at least Armenians) who have pictures of the Sacred Heart in their homes, but that is really out of ignorance of their own Church's teachings.  They see their neighbors with these pictures and they think it is O.K.  Most people just don't know what is allowed or not allowed.

[Athanasios]

Hello,

From http://thedivinemercy.org/message/:


The Divine Mercy message is one we can call to mind simply by remembering ABC:

A - Ask for His Mercy. God wants us to approach Him in prayer constantly, repenting of our sins and asking Him to pour His mercy out upon us and upon the whole world.

B - Be merciful. God wants us to receive His mercy and let it flow through us to others. He wants us to extend love and forgiveness to others just as He does to us.

C - Completely trust in Jesus. God wants us to know that the graces of His mercy are dependent upon our trust. The more we trust in Jesus, the more we will receive.

[stashko]

Hello,

From http://thedivinemercy.org/message/:


The Divine Mercy message is one we can call to mind simply by remembering ABC:

A - Ask for His Mercy. God wants us to approach Him in prayer constantly, repenting of our sins and asking Him to pour His mercy out upon us and upon the whole world.

B - Be merciful. God wants us to receive His mercy and let it flow through us to others. He wants us to extend love and forgiveness to others just as He does to us.

C - Completely trust in Jesus. God wants us to know that the graces of His mercy are dependent upon our trust. The more we trust in Jesus, the more we will receive.

Brother Coder;  the A, B, C, that you mention, it was already known ,from the time of the Holy Apostles,,given to the holy Fathers and many were martyred for what was given once and for all time and if that wasn't trusting in Jesus i don't know what else it could be,,,why would the Blessed Saviour have to reappear ,and remind the church in 1950,, is this the year it happened ,,what was already known,,im sure Jesus being God he didn't forget to tell us the first time, that he had to come back again the second or third time..

What about the other things that go with the Divine Mercy ,posted several post above,,,how do we fit those in with the Holy  Fathers.....i have so many questions to ask ,,,though i vaguely remember the Divine Mercy story..stashko

[Athanasios]

Hello,

and remind the church in 1950,, is this the year it happened

Not 1950, it was during the 1920's and 1930's.

Brother Coder;  the A, B, C, that you mention, it was already known ,from the time of the Holy Apostles,,given to the holy Fathers and many were martyred for what was given once and for all time,,,why would the Blessed Saviour have to reappear ,and remind the church in 1950,, is this the year it happened ,,what was already known,,im sure Jesus being God he didn't forget to tell us the first time, that he had to come back again the second or third time..

And the reason being - we're human and we're stupid. Sometimes we need a friendly reminder (or at times not so friendly ) of what we already know.

What about the other things that go with the Divine Mercy ,posted several post above,,,how do we fit those in with the Holy  Fathers..

What specifics things are you referring to.

...i have so many questions to ask ,,,though i vaguely remember the Divine Mercy story..stashko

Ask your questions and I shall try to answer.

[ozgeorge]

Ask your questions and I shall try to answer.

What does "Jesus" who spoke to St. Faustina mean by this: “I desire that My mercy be worshipped.”

[ozgeorge]

What does "Jesus" who spoke to St. Faustina mean by this: “I desire that My mercy be worshipped.”

From the Diary of Sr. Faustina:
"Today, I took part in a one day retreat. When I was at the last conference, the priest was speaking of how much the world needs God’s mercy, and that this seems to be a special time when people have a great need of prayer and God’s mercy. Then I heard a voice in my soul: "these words are for you. Do all you possibly can for this work of My mercy. I desire that My mercy be worshipped, and I am giving mankind the last hope of salvation; that is, recourse to My mercy. My Heart rejoices in this feast." After these words, I understood that nothing can dispense me from the obligation which the Lord demands of me."
Source: http://our.homewithgod.com/divinemercy/book2page2/

[Jakub]

Private relevations are non binding to Catholics or Orthodox...this is a non-issue to me

[stashko]

Hello,
Not 1950, it was during the 1920's and 1930's.

 And the reason being - we're human and we're stupid. Sometimes we need a friendly reminder (or at times not so friendly ) of what we already know.

What specifics things are you referring to.

Ask your questions and I shall try to answer.

The reminders Brother we have already ,,and they are the writings of the Holy Church Fathers /and Holy Scriptures..
please if you know of a link that i can read the whole Divine Mercy story... thank you.brother stashko

[stashko]

Private relevations are non binding to Catholics or Orthodox...this is a non-issue to me

Thats true if it remained private..its not  now its  public ...stashko

[ozgeorge]

Private relevations are non binding to Catholics or Orthodox...this is a non-issue to me

Do you really have a choice?
In accordance with these particular revelations, the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments instituted the Sunday of Divine Mercy, and the Vatican specifically mentions St Faustina Kowalska as the cause of this Feast Day in it's documents regarding the "Sunday of Divine Mercy":

St Faustina Kowalska saw coming from this Heart that was overflowing with generous love, two rays of light which illuminated the world. "The two rays", according to what Jesus himself told her, "represent the blood and the water" (Diary, p. 132). The blood recalls the sacrifice of Golgotha and the mystery of the Eucharist; the water, according to the rich symbolism of the Evangelist John, makes us think of Baptism and the Gift of the Holy Spirit (cf. Jn 3: 5; 4: 14)
Source: vatican.va

[Pravoslavbob]

I'm assuming that by "Byzantines" you mean EO's.  I have never heard them accused of being cryptoMonophysites. 

This is in fact a widely held criticism of the Eastern Orthodox.  However, it is a criticism made by Westerners, and decidedly not the Oriental Orthodox!

[username!]

I had a good post made up, but basically ran out of steam.  I didn't have access to any non-online sources for this at hand (especially at this hour).  So I didn't post about particulars on this.
Ok, really the Feast day of Divine Mercy isn't that hard to understand.  It does take some background though to get to the bottom of the issue. 
The Feast Day was implemented to teach the faithful about, according to http://www.divinemercysunday.com/mercy_sunday.htm,
  Thus, to fittingly observe the Feast of Mercy, we should:

1.    Celebrate the Feast on the Sunday after Easter;

2.    Sincerely repent of all our sins;

3.    Place our complete trust in Jesus;

4.    Go to Confession, preferably before that Sunday;

5.    Receive Holy Communion on the day of the Feast;

6.    Venerate* the Image of The Divine Mercy;

7.    Be merciful to others, through our actions, words, and prayers on their behalf.

And I quote that from the referenced link.
Also, read through the entire page. 

[ozgeorge]

  Thus, to fittingly observe the Feast of Mercy, we should:

1.    Celebrate the Feast on the Sunday after Easter;

2.    Sincerely repent of all our sins;

3.    Place our complete trust in Jesus;

4.    Go to Confession, preferably before that Sunday;

5.    Receive Holy Communion on the day of the Feast;

6.    Venerate* the Image of The Divine Mercy;

7.    Be merciful to others, through our actions, words, and prayers on their behalf.

The only thing different to any other Sunday the veneration of the image of the Divine Mercy.
This whole thing smacks of "spookodoxy". A Universal Feast of the Roman Catholic Church is established on the basis of some voices heard by a nun. Is this what we have been reduced to? Consulting oracles,  channellers and mediums to determine the direction we should go?

[Athanasios]

Hello,

What does "Jesus" who spoke to St. Faustina mean by this: “I desire that My mercy be worshipped.”

Because this worship is really worship of God, as I mentioned due to the reality of His undivided hypostasis.

[Athanasios]

Hello,

Do you really have a choice?
In accordance with these particular revelations, the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments instituted the Sunday of Divine Mercy, and the Vatican specifically mentions St Faustina Kowalska as the cause of this Feast Day in it's documents regarding the "Sunday of Divine Mercy":

God's mercy is one of the basic ideas in both Judaism and Christianity. Lord, have mercy - is one of the most basic and fundamental prayers there is. The real question is why did it take 2000 years for this Universal Feast to be established?

[Athanasios]

Hello,

The reminders Brother we have already ,,and they are the writings of the Holy Church Fathers /and Holy Scriptures..
please if you know of a link that i can read the whole Divine Mercy story... thank you.brother stashko

This link - http://thedivinemercy.org/message/ - will take you to the website for the National Shrine of Divine Mercy in Stockbridge, MA. It's probably the most accurate and comprehensive information you'll get on the web. If you want more, you can buy Saint Faustina's Diary from their gift shop online.

[ozgeorge]

Because this worship is really worship of God, as I mentioned due to the reality of His undivided hypostasis.

That doesn't explain why the Second Person of the Trinity would say "I desire that my Mercy be worshipped". If that's not what He meant, why would Christ, Who never once minced words in the Gospel, say something when He means something else? And if He did say that He desires His mercy to be worshipped, this raises some basic theological problems: Is the Mercy of the Second Person of the Trinity to be considered "God"? Does God's Mercy share the same Divine Essence as the Persons of the Trinity?

God's mercy is one of the basic ideas in both Judaism and Christianity.

I'm aware of that. But what has never before occurred in the history of Judaism or Christianity is that God asked that one of his attributes be worshipped. We do not worship God's dispassion, nor do we worship God's peace, nor do we worship God's love,  nor do we worship God's Justice...so why would He ask us to worship His mercy?

Lord, have mercy - is one of the most basic and fundamental prayers there is.

Yep, but the prayer "we worship your mercy" is unheard of before St. Faustina. 

The real question is why did it take 2000 years for this Universal Feast to be established?

Some reasons might include:
1) Lack of Tradition for it.
2) Lack of Patristic support for it.
3) It fails the Vincentian Canon test.

[pathofsolitude]

Of course, there are individual OO's (at least Armenians) who have pictures of the Sacred Heart in their homes, but that is really out of ignorance of their own Church's teachings.  They see their neighbors with these pictures and they think it is O.K.  Most people just don't know what is allowed or not allowed.

Hi Salpy. I love the Armenian people.

I am wondering: what could possibly be wrong with the Sacred Heart picture?? Its so famous in the West as I guess like a Christian cultural icon that no one really associates it with a private revelation.

The Coptic church in my town has a HUGE [maybe the biggest I've ever seen!] Sacred Heart picture hanging up in the reception/meeting area. I really like it. It reminds me of Jesus' heart.

To ozgeorge or anyone else-
I wonder if Jesus divided himself up into parts when he said: "I am gentle and humble in heart"?? The imagery of the physical heart is only symbolic. Likewise Westerners have devotion to the physical heart as representing the deep emotions etc of Jesus.

[stashko]

Hello,
This link - http://thedivinemercy.org/message/ - will take you to the website for the National Shrine of Divine Mercy in Stockbridge, MA. It's probably the most accurate and comprehensive information you'll get on the web. If you want more, you can buy Saint Faustina's Diary from their gift shop online.

Brother coder ,,im a little confused ,Brother Username mentioned that the sunday after Easter is to be honored why???when the greatest day the festival of festivals is Pasca the day of Resurrection the Greatest Mercy ever for mankind ..Sung in all the orthodox churches.this is the day the Lord has made let us rejoice in it ...thats why Brother i have to be skeptic no offense to you about this devotion...i my self can't accept it....Brother Stashko   also i will sudy the link you gave me God Bless ....

[username!]

That doesn't explain why the Second Person of the Trinity would say "I desire that my Mercy be worshipped". If that's not what He meant, why would Christ, Who never once minced words in the Gospel, say something when He means something else? And if He did say that He desires His mercy to be worshipped, this raises some basic theological problems: Is the Mercy of the Second Person of the Trinity to be considered "God"? Does God's Mercy share the same Divine Essence as the Persons of the Trinity?
 I'm aware of that. But what has never before occurred in the history of Judaism or Christianity is that God asked that one of his attributes be worshipped. We do not worship God's dispassion, nor do we worship God's peace, nor do we worship God's love,  nor do we worship God's Justice...so why would He ask us to worship His mercy?
 Yep, but the prayer "we worship your mercy" is unheard of before St. Faustina. 
Some reasons might include:
1) Lack of Tradition for it.
2) Lack of Patristic support for it.
3) It fails the Vincentian Canon test.

The best source would be reading Sister Faustina's original diary.  Either the original or a paper facismile of the original document.  Rather we are going on a translation from a diary that was written in (most likely) portugeuse.  I wonder what the nun really wrote versus what the translaters wrote (promoting their cause or what-not). 
And why is Fatima never doubted?  Certainly there are many instances that are, even modern situations.
I can blindly say that as I am sure a google search would clear that up.  I know my cousin and his wife go to Ireland and toss money at this lady who claims to see that Virgin Mary (at least they were doing that).  I don't remember her name, but I do remember one of my cousins saying she was already proclaimed not valid.
Anyway, I see your point OzGeorge.  Honestly I can't answer why the RCC would create a Feast Day due to a private devotion.  John Paul 2 was a huge Fatima believer and that may explain why the Feast exists.

[Athanasios]

Hello,

That doesn't explain why the Second Person of the Trinity would say "I desire that my Mercy be worshipped". If that's not what He meant, why would Christ, Who never once minced words in the Gospel, say something when He means something else? And if He did say that He desires His mercy to be worshipped, this raises some basic theological problems: Is the Mercy of the Second Person of the Trinity to be considered "God"? Does God's Mercy share the same Divine Essence as the Persons of the Trinity?
 I'm aware of that. But what has never before occurred in the history of Judaism or Christianity is that God asked that one of his attributes be worshipped. We do not worship God's dispassion, nor do we worship God's peace, nor do we worship God's love,  nor do we worship God's Justice...so why would He ask us to worship His mercy?
 Yep, but the prayer "we worship your mercy" is unheard of before St. Faustina. 

I could quote Saint Thomas Aquinas and his ideas of transcendentals. Basically, God is the ultimate of the transcendentals and evil is the negation of those.

Therefore - God not only is good, He is goodness itself. God not only exists, He is existence itself. God is not only beautiful, He is beauty itself. God not only loves, He is love itself (this one is actually verbatim from Scriptures). And God is not only merciful, He is mercy itself.

Some reasons might include:
1) Lack of Tradition for it.
2) Lack of Patristic support for it.
3) It fails the Vincentian Canon test.

No tradition of imploring God's mercy - how about every time in the Liturgy we pray "Lord, have mercy". I wonder how many times mercy is spoken of in the Fathers (anyone care to parse the texts? ).

[Athanasios]

Hello,

Brother coder ,,im a little confused ,Brother Username mentioned that the sunday after Easter is to be honored why???when the greatest day the festival of festivals is Pasca the day of Resurrection the Greatest Mercy ever for mankind ..Sung in all the orthodox churches.this is the day the Lord has made let us rejoice in it ...thats why Brother i have to be skeptic no offense to you about this devotion...i my self can't accept it....Brother Stashko   also i will sudy the link you gave me God Bless ....

This link from that site details briefly the feast.
http://thedivinemercy.org/message/devotions/mercysundy.php

[Tags:]

OrthodoxChristianity.net > Moderated Forums > Orthodox-Other Christian Discussion > Orthodox-Catholic Discussion (Moderator: username!) > Topic: Orthodox understanding of the roman catholic divine mercy devotion